 Hello. Hello. Hello. And welcome. I'm Meryon Khalili. We are DM 25, a radical political movement for Europe, and this is our regular live coordinating call. And today, we're going to talk about, once again, Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the war is grinding on. As of yesterday, the UN estimates that 925 civilians have been killed, 1500 injured, three and a half million, mainly women and children in the elderly have fled their country as refugees and many more trying to get out. Six and a half million people displaced within the country, whole city blocks flattened, including a children's hospital and maternity hospital. This is a humanitarian catastrophe, and yet it could all get so much worse. So whatever we say here today, let's be clear that Putin's illegal invasion is horrific, and we should all stand with the Ukrainian people. War is hell. Here in the West, we seem to have lost our collective minds in reaction to this war and how we discuss it. Alongside the crippling regime of sanctions aimed at the Russian government, we've pulled Russian films from festivals, banned Russian acts from competitions, banned Russian cats. Several apps on my phone recently announced to me that they're no longer accepting Russian users. The terrorists, unfortunately, have set fire to a Russian school in Germany. As you can imagine, this is the predictable xenophobic reaction against Russia across Europe reports of Russian people being targeted in public as my colleague, Lucas Fabraro has written on a piece on dn25.org. There's a word for this worldview and we should do well to look it up. Meanwhile, we also seem to be doing our very best to ensure that the discourse on this vital topic is as narrow as possible. Big Tech have banned Russian media outlets from Europe. Twitter temporarily blocked some users from Russia. Facebook announced that calling for violence against Russians was acceptable on its platform and dissent is very quickly labeled as justification for Putin's actions. Establishment, talking points on the police. So what's going on here, how do we separate truth from lies? How do we avoid making the whole thing worse with our reaction to what's happening in Ukraine. With Yanis Varoufakis and the rest of our crew, we will pick apart these issues. You out there, if you have any thoughts, comments, rants, questions, concerns, things to get off your chest, please put them in the chat, the YouTube chat. This is live and we'll put them to our panel. Thank you for watching and let's jump straight into it. Yanis, you first. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Those of you who are watching. This is not the first live stream we are dedicating to Ukraine. We've already done one where we had a very wide range in discussion about the need to end the war immediately to ground to make sure that the Ukrainians do not have to live under fear that Russian troops withdraw from Ukrainian soil that some kind of arrangement is agreed to by the great powers, primarily of course Washington and Moscow with the assistance of the European Union, which is otherwise geopolitically insignificant as a matter of choice, but that's another big discussion not to have now. Today, since we've already done all this, and Marin's introduction states very well the position of DM-25, we are standing with anyone whose homes, towns, villages are being invaded and bombarded, whether they are Ukrainians, Yemenis, Palestinians, it doesn't matter who they are, Kurds, we stand with them. At the same time, this is an end, it's not a but, we are scrutinizing the causes of the conflict, the causes of Putin and so on. But this is not what I want to speak about today, Marin. What I want to talk about today is a very painful and critical criticism waged against me personally, but not just me against Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, various comrades of DM-25 and broadly of the progressive community of the world, of the progressive international, and some of them are members, many of them are members of the progressive international, criticism that has come from Eastern Europe, from progressives in Eastern Europe, who are taking exception at our scrutiny of the role of NATO, of the fact that we say neither Putin, nor NATO, and the particular accusation, which as I said, I mean being honest with our audience, is very painful personally, is the accusation of West Plaining, which of course comes from Man's Plaining, and to be precise, we all know what Man's Plaining means, a very important criticism of the tendency of men to explain to women the circumstances of their own oppression by men. And this translates into the discourse regarding Eastern Europe, as follows, that we, Western left-wingers and liberals, contest sent to explain Eastern Europe to Eastern Europeans and to explain to them their predicament. This is the accusation. Now, if this accusation is valid, and it has to be taken very seriously amongst comrades, we have something very serious to content with. Now, let me try to do justice to this complaint, to this accusation that we Western left-wingers, the people I mentioned, the DM-25, the progressive international, are disrespecting Eastern European progressives by telling them, explaining to them their own predicament and denying them agency effectively. This is the accusation. Now, there is no doubt that those of us who grew up in a country like mine in the West, and those who grew up in Poland, the Czech Republic, what used to be Czechoslovakia and so on, are that we have different oppressions, historic oppressions to draw lessons from and to, you know, to develop different sensitivities and sensibilities. For instance, you know, I grew up as a young kid in a fascist dictatorship that was sponsored by NATO. My comrades in Poland suffered under a dictatorship sponsored by the Soviet Union or by Russians in particular, and they have a very long tradition of their country being torn apart by various Russian regimes, not just the Soviet Union. And therefore, this is not to be contested. This is something I accept totally. It is not sure that we Greeks, for instance, tend to be more critical of NATO, whereas the criticisms of our comrades in Poland and the Eastern Europe and Ukraine, of course, is far more directed towards Moscow. This is legitimate. And therefore, our criticisms of NATO to them seem like being out of place. Their main critique of our position is that we are challenging the right of Eastern Europeans to choose NATO. It's been in black and white in various articles that have been blaming DM, Progressive International, and me personally, and I'm trying to get all our comrades, you know, for having missed out an important fact. And that is that the majorities in their countries in Poland in the Ukraine and Czech Republic so supported their countries entry into NATO. Therefore, their entry was democratically legitimized. Therefore, who are we to simply talk about NATO expanding as if it was something that NATO did against the peoples of Eastern Europe. Yes, there is no doubt that this is me speaking. That it is significant that majorities wanted to enter NATO, for instance, in Poland. But this does not mean, comrades, that I, as a Greek left-winger, should agree with NATO expansion just because a majority in Poland consented to it. And there's nothing condescending about this. You know, I often oppose tooth and nail views and decisions favored by a majority of Greeks. Let's say that there is an opinion poll taken here in Greece with a majority wanting NATO. It doesn't stop me from rejecting that or arguing that, yes, of course, the majority may want that, but I am not in favor of this, and I think that the majority of Greeks are mistaken. Now, should somebody say to me that I can say this about my own competitors, but I can't say this about the polls, then I will say that hang on a second, this violates basic principles of internationalism. The whole point of GMD5 is that we are in this collective together, not as Greeks or Poles or Italians or whatever. We are here as Europeans as citizens, and we have every right to criticize majority views in our countries and neighboring countries in every country. That, for me, is internationalism. Now, the hypothesis of our critics who are accusing us of West Plaining. It's an interesting point they made. They say, ah, you know, you guys are telling us that the deeper cause of the conflict in Ukraine, in Georgia, in Moldova, in all the places where there are Russian troops or paramilitaries. You are telling us, we are telling them, that it's because NATO violated the agreement between the United States and Gorbachev, initially Yeltsin afterwards, and NATO expanded. And they tell us, the people who are accusing us of West Plaining, that, you know what, we have another hypothesis. Our hypothesis, their hypothesis, that Russia would have invaded Ukraine, Georgia, maybe even Poland, if NATO had not expanded. So it's, you know, our hypothesis versus yours. Well, fine, we can disagree. Like all counterfactuals, you know, what would have happened if NATO had not expanded? Would Russia have invaded the Ukraine? Like all counterfactuals, it's an untestable hypothesis. Okay, but let's establish amongst comrades who disagree, that there are two hypotheses. There is the hypothesis that Russia would have expanded, would have invaded anyway, if NATO had not acted in an expansionary imperialistic form. And there is my counter hypothesis that, and I believe very strongly in what I'm going to say, Putin would not have been in power today had the United States not actively kept Russia at bay. For instance, what would have happened if Russia's early request, and there was an official early request by Russia in the 1990s, to have been admitted to NATO, once NATO didn't seem to be dissolving. What would have happened if Russia had been admitted to NATO? I think that the whole setup would have been very, very different. Washington was trying to keep Russia out and was trying to provoke the creation of a nasty regime in Moscow. That's my hypothesis, I may be wrong. My comrades in Poland, in Eastern Europe, who are accusing me of Westplaining, may be right. But mutual respect between comrades means interrogating each other's argument. Not othering, othering from other, othering, you know, the other side by labeling me as a Westplanner. In the same way it would be awful for me to label them something, you know, it's uncommonly of them to label me, you, Chomsky, and so on. Let's have an argument. Let's have a debate. But this kind of othering is absolutely detrimental to the very principles of internationalism. Now, I will conclude by moving on to the substance of things. Let's be clear here. What is the stake? I mean, people are dying, as we speak, in Mariupol, in Kiev, across the east and the south of the Ukraine. The label Westplanner was attached to people like myself for having advocated the independent, neutral Ukraine solution. In juxtaposition to Ukraine sticking to its aspiration for NATO members. Now, this is really very serious comments because it goes well beyond a complaint of not, you know, fast, not taking the Ukrainians agency seriously by dismissing the neutrality solution which I have advocated and for which I have been called a Westplane by dismissing it as something a Westplane that would opt for. What are these comments are declaring is a willingness in a sense to carry on the war in the name of some theoretical right to join NATO. That is a very significant decision they're making. Now, we left wingers, left wingers everywhere in the world, we should understand above all else that there is a dialectic relationship between authoritarianism. I am stating my position on this Putin needs the Nazis of Ukraine, the as of battalion who are definitely Nazis. That's not an excuse for putting to invade Russia, but to deny that the as of battalion are Nazis is to deny reality truth. But what I'm saying is that he needs those matches and those matches need Putin, like we've always said that the nationalists in the ultra nationalists, the neo fascists in Europe needed the establishment, you know, the Macron's and the Merkel's and those sources and so on. And the establishment needs the ultra nationalists. I think that it is incumbent upon left wingers to understand this dialectic relationship between bastards to put it in a non scientific way. NATO justifies existence as a supplier of security because of the insecurity it helped breed through its expansion that gives Putin the reason to be. Now that I believe is a very solid left wing Marxist dialectical position, I may be wrong, but I would like those who are labeling me and us, West Plainers to respond to that. Now, one other accusation is that we are taking an equidistant position, you know, putting on one side Nate on the other. Yes, we are not. Sorry, let me say that under no circumstances that we're taking equidistant positions. We are saying unequivocally and Meron. Thank you for beginning this call by saying this that Putin is the man and the leader responsible for the massacre of Ukrainians. He cannot blame NATO. Nobody can blame NATO for the invasion. He chose to invade. He didn't have to invade. What we're saying is, we are adding to this analysis that NATO created the circumstances for somebody like putting to be where he is and to do what he does. That's not an equidistant position. Today we stand with Ukraine. We can then put him for a war he chose, which he could have chosen not to have. Regardless of what NATO did or did not do. And that does not mean that we rush into NATO's bosom or that we turn a blind eye into NATO's contribution to building putting up. Eastern Europe, as far as I'm concerned, will only be safe once all the authoritarians, all the autocrats are removed. The racist autocrats from Russia, from Poland, from Hungary, the as of battalion in Ukraine and NATO. And NATO, let's be clear, will not achieve this because NATO has gone into bed with most of those ultra-right wing racists. Lastly, and this is how I'm finishing. Comrades the left, let's not forget, we have a very long tradition of being mortally wounded and mortally split by imperialist wars. The second communist international was split as a result of the Great War. Some socialists, social democrats, especially in Germany, took the side of their nation state. Similarly on the other side, that caused us to split between those who took sides in an imperialist war and those who said, no, we're not taking sides. We have never really recovered from this split of the second international. We must not repeat this, but unfortunately it's already being repeated. Let's start with a very simple idea. Let's not call each other names. Thank you, man. Thank you. Yeah, and it's very important to point out the labeling there. West Blana, War Manga, Putin, Apologists. These are thrown around all the time in this discourse. And thank you for your nuanced take because nuance is pretty hard to find in the current discourse. Okay, Beryl, Beryl Madra, you have the floor. Thank you, Mehran. First of all, I must say I'm very sad and anxious about the annihilation of Ukraine. Wars have invaded our lives since a century. And I'm asking, was there a real peace anytime? I don't know. There wasn't any real peace. Two issues will give you an idea of what happens here. I was in the city center, Russian language and young Russian is now in the streets of Istanbul. And, for example, the port of Bodrum has become a safe haven for fleeing oligarchs. After Turkey has revealed that Turkey would not impose financial penalties sanctions against the country's billionaires. However, it seems that the relationship between Turkey, Ukraine and Russia is not so balanced. Turkey is, we know that Turkey is more dependent on Russia than the other way around. Russian gas supplies keep Turkey's homes warm while the Mediterranean coast cities and their economy is dependent on the influx of Russian tourists. Let's say four million tourists every year comes to these cities. And on the other hand, Ukraine provides wheat and sunflower oil for Turkey. And just three days ago, three ships could come from Black Sea to Turkey full with some sunflower oil, which is very, very expensive in Turkey now. You know that Turkey took a very strategic decision and supplied Ukraine with these armed drones. And these drones are produced by Erdogan's son-in-law Bayraktar. And even these drones were also used in Libya and Karabakh between Armenia and Afghanistan. Ukraine has already deployed the Bayraktar drones to fight the Moscow separatists who control to break away unrecognized regions in the east of the country. But we know that Putin in a telephone call on December 3 expressed his irritation to Erdogan over Ukraine's use of the drones. And he described it as provocative. And also in January, he also made another telephone call with the same subject. At the moment, I cannot predict today how this situation will evolve. And it really depends probably on the diplomatic relations. We will see. Thank you. Thank you, Baral. A couple of comments from the chat here. Julie noted says if you were against the war in Iraq here in the United States, 2003, you were a Saddam apologist. Stephen Sheehan says the ugly foolish and extremely dangerous Russophobia is new. I've never seen anything like this. I'm glad to be here responding I think to Yanis said is the whole argumentation about NATO dialectically making Russia aggressive is a historical. Russia was like that since centuries before NATO's creation. And Selma says there's no need to defend against the West Blaming label, not because it's a weak standpoint but because we shouldn't adopt the terminology of our opponents. Hi, everyone. I'm glad to be here after missing a zoom or two. So I'm really happy to see you. And as you know, I'm now speaking from Croatia. Two weeks ago, a military or 10 days ago or something like that, who remembers anymore, a military drone crashed into the center of Zagreb, as you probably know, still to today, no one took responsibility. It doesn't know exactly who's it is and so on. But it almost could have killed 4000 or 4500 students who were sleeping that night is a grip. So this is just a little example to show that war doesn't know borders, especially wars in the 21st century, that everyone is affected. Of course, we are lucky enough to have this discussion and continue building our movement across Europe, while others are fleeing or taking arms into their hands. But at the same time, what people have seen in Croatia during the last 10 days, just a little update before I go into the central topic of our today's conversation is the effects of the war. I mean, from hyperinflation, gas prices, gasoline prices, total insecurity among people, a propaganda war, manufacturing consent, everything which we have been seeing also 30 years ago in this part of Europe, you know, during the collapse of Yugoslavia. It has many similarities with differences as well. So to come into the topic, one of the similarities unfortunately with the collapse of Yugoslavia is definitely the atmosphere of what Sigmund Freud would have called the Bankferbot. Germans among us know this beautiful but frightful word. It means the prohibition to think. You know, Freud coined it in order to explain the prohibitions to think in the context of religion, but also in sex. But today we could apply it to the war itself, because we are finding ourselves in a very dangerous situation of a very black and white narrative of almost Hollywood like narrative of good versus evil. So in this kind of situation, of course, what you have is something which comes very close to Stalinism or to Enver Hodja in Albania, for instance, who had also Stalinist purges in Albania, which is this kind of attempt to find the inner enemy. You know, it's not just the outer enemy, but also the inner enemy, both in Russia and in Ukraine. And in both countries. Of course, I stand in full solidarity with everyone suffering in Ukraine and fleeing Ukraine. At the same time I stand in full solidarity with all the Russians who oppose Putin's regime, when we're ending up in prison, whose lectures, performances, basically work is being canceled, just because they are of Russian nationality. So I come to my first example and then I stop talking soon so others can talk as well. When I saw that Dostoevsky was canceled in Italy, I think it was a university, a university in Milano when I saw that the Karl Marx room in Florida was renamed because they thought Karl Marx is a Russian or a Putinist or whatever. It reminded me on the beginning of the 90s in ex-Yugoslavia, you know, that most of the books I still have in my library are books which were thrown away in the beginning of the 90s just because the old authors were Marx, Engels, Lukacs, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky. It didn't matter, you know, it was a kind of a razor of culture, because those writers and thinkers were identified at that time with socialist Yugoslavia, but also with Serbia. So basically you had a witch hunt. In the 90s in Croatia, you had a collective of feminists which was called the witches from Rio, who were accused of raping Croatia, just because they were on anti-war positions and critical of nationalism. Frederick Matvei, which one of the greatest writers intellectuals on the Mediterranean, received free bullets in his post-box at the beginning of the 90s in Croatia just because he was speaking against nationalism, so he fled to Paris later to Sapienza in Italy. And this is something what is happening already these days, both in Russia and Ukraine. I'm not saying the situation is the same. What I'm saying is you have a similar process. If you're not thinking in the same way as we are, you are becoming an enemy. And this is the situation many people in Ukraine itself are facing, but also many people in Russia and all those artists who are today being cancelled. And so to finish, I would just want to relate to something what Yanis said. I fully understand, of course, our comrades. Of course, they wouldn't be happy if we called them comrades, I guess, because also of the socialist legacy which was kind of different in Yugoslavia, but also then in Poland or Czech Republic and other countries. But I understand their concerns. We, who grew up in the 90s in Yugoslavia, we were fed up by so-called Western intellectuals who were explaining what is actually happening to us. Whether it was, you know, the Western left supporting Slobodan Milosevic, because they thought he's an anti-imperialist, or it is Bernadon Levy going to Sarajevo and, you know, posing in front of the cameras and fighting for the ideals of Europe as he is, as we speak in Odessa in Ukraine. So I understand their concerns. At the same time, we have the right and we have the duty to speak about those atrocities which are happening, especially if you're an internationalist. We have the duty to speak about atrocities which are happening everywhere in the world. Of course, without falling into the trap that either we know better or even that a native informer knows better, you know, this term coined by Gayatri Spivak, which I think really makes sense today, the native informant, which today becomes the figure of authority. So, yes, I'll finish here. Unfortunately, I see an echo from Yugoslavia in many things which are happening, and I think what we are facing today is really both a propaganda war, but also a dank for both a prohibition to be critical because there is only one line and there is no alternative. Well, we have to create the alternative. Thank you, Srećko, for your personal comments there. Maja Pelović, from Serbia, you know a thing or two about erasure of culture. Yes, well, first I want to completely agree with Srećko because I think he mentioned a couple of things that I actually wanted to mention about the cultural banning that is happening all over Europe at the time. And also, I think that us in Yugoslavia countries can away find very much similarities of lots of banning and condemning different points of view and also this kind of west plain as we say that is happening at the moment. I want to talk a little bit about culture because I know that at this time when when there is the war happening and of course that people are not thinking about culture now but I think it's very important. It has always been important. It has been important before and during and after war times. And I think that there will be a big problem with the cultural scene after this war ends as it is happening at the moment. This is from Serbia, a country that in the recent research has shown that 78% of the inhabitants in Serbia are for Putin. I just came back yesterday from Montenegro and the whole city is full of Putin symbols t-shirts all around town. This is a mural of Putin in the center of the city that is next to the war criminal. So I think it's very much this this nationalism is very much rising in Serbia. But I also have a lot of friends that are in the Serbian cultural scene that are very much against this kind of nationalism and that are against this government. I don't at any point condemn and Putin's actions in Ukraine. So our president never said anything against invasion. He only said something about, of course, he has a problem with the territorial integrity of Ukraine because of Kosovo but condemning Putin. So I think that a lot of people around me at this moment fear of Serbia becoming a country that will in a way be not invaded by Russia but that will be in a way in a big Russian influence will happen. So it is happening at the moment. And so what is happening on the cultural scene. I will give a recent example that can say a lot about of the things that that are happening. It is an example from Serbia of my friend Milena Bogavac who is she was a director of a theater at the only city in Serbia that was that is all that is again that was against which it and had a government that was against which it and she is very much in a way in her work. Speaking in a very anti national list manner and she's very much of course against Putin and the evasion of Ukraine and her play was supposed to be shown in Prague in a couple of days ago and it has also been banned. Because of the and they even said it in the letter she said they could have said anything else. They could have said technical problems but they actually told us the truth. They told us that the truth is that they cannot invite a show that is from a government from a country that government did not give sanctions to Russia and that is not condemning the war in Russia. So she of course wrote them a letter saying that she is a completely independent artist that the show that she she was supposed to show was not even financed by the Serbian government and the Ministry of Culture, it was financed for crowdfunding so it was financed by us friends that gave money to them, but they just did not want to talk about that. So it is an interesting situation of course it is happening a lot with Russians I recently spoke to Russian designers who came to Montenegro she flew from Russia, of course not wanting to live there anymore. And she told me because her boyfriend is from Sweden that she had a problem in Europe, because she could not say she was from Russia. When I asked her where she was from she looked at me and she was like, I, well I'm from here I said yeah but where are you from and she was like well I cannot well I don't want to tell you I'm from Russia and I was like so what. And she said she had problems because of that in Europe and that she just continues saying telling people that she's from Ukraine. So I think that these kinds of things are going to happen this kind of Russophobia will happen a lot in the, in the next period. And also I have a friend from Russia she's a professor at the University in Russia, who a professor of political science, who got canceled all the lectures she was supposed to have in Europe. And when she gave an interview in Serbia, of course, condemning at one Putin and also condemning NATO. And they just censored the whole Putin thing so now she only has, like, at the end it's shown that she like only condemn NATO. So, I think that we should of course stand for all the Ukrainians, Ukrainians that suffer at the moment but I think that we have to stand also for the Russian people for the Russian artists, because we know that art is supposed to be a place where you can have a critical point of view, and a specific critical point of view of the world. And I think in the next period it will be very hard, and it will specifically be very hard for the people of Russia and also for the people in the countries like mine that did not that government did not condemn the Russian invasion in Ukraine. Can I ask you something? I mean, what can you draw a line for us from these cultural bands to how it helps the people of Ukraine? I don't understand the logic here. Yeah, there is no- It sounds quite dumb, but where is it coming from? Is it just signalling? Is it just an emotional reaction? What's actually behind it? It is, it's very weird actually, because it comes from the West, it comes from countries that have freedom of speech, and it comes from, it does not come from, it would be normal maybe to see that in the totalitarian regime, but seeing it coming from the West, it is really odd, because they're not just banning contemporary Russian artists, they're also banning artists from the past that in a way were very critical of the Russian regime. So it is really weird, because like I had one more example, it was actually from Montenegro, my friends were doing a play at the Montenegro National Theatre, Maxi Gorky, and it was a thing that was supposed to be done six months in advance, of course, and now they're doing it, and it was like this, it was supposed to be banned, then at the end they said, please do not ban our show, we did the whole thing, and it's going to go out, but a lot of people are against it, because it's Maxi Gorky, so I cannot find the logic, for me it's just dumb and stupid, you know, you cannot ban artists that, of course you can ban artists that are going to be pro-Putin and that are going to in a way talking on nationalistic discourse, and, you know, artists that will in any kind of way say anything that is not against the war, but condemning and banning all artists from Russia, just because they're Russian, I think it just appears to be true. Thanks, Maya, and if anyone else would care to enlighten us on the logic there, either from the chat or here in the panel, please do so. Okay, Ivana, Ivana Nedarevich from Serbia. I'll try to continue where Maya stopped and pick up on why is it happening, Maya said it's just dumb and stupid, I think it's very scary and dangerous, and that irreversible damage is being done as we speak, and it escalated overnight, and as Maya said it's coming from democratic societies that we wouldn't expect this xenophobia in those amounts to just burst, but it seems like it was piling up for a very long time and just waiting to get out. I think one of the reasons is that Cold War never really ended and that this scrutiny on Russians was always there, it was just quiet, and now we just replaced migrants from Syria or Afghanistan with Russians even more forcefully, even with more hatred and destruction, because it's legitimate all of a sudden. Hate speech is welcome on Facebook and Twitter and so on, so I think what Yanis was saying at the beginning and this West's planning and then Eastern European left is taking this stand that they know better because it's about them. Again, because I am from ex Yugoslavia, I am from Serbia and Serbia bears this legacy from Yugoslavia, Srećko mentioned how from Croatia everything was banned that resembled socialism, communism, hence everything that has to do with Yugoslavia. That's how countries that ended up behind the Iron Curtain, and Yugoslavia was not one of them, that's perhaps why we have a little bit of different perspective, were heavily oppressed by Russia, and I can understand the sentiment. But on the other hand, because everything is being polarized and being made black or white for Poland, for example, if they are not pro-EU, if they are not pro-NATO, what else is there? That's the question Serbia has as well. If we don't join the EU, if we don't join the NATO, what else is there? That's why Esmael thinks that we should have, I don't know, unity with Russia, which is, I don't even want to go there. But this is where I think DM should also help to provide this platform, to provide different sides of opinions, different informations, to also educate a little bit what was going on in Eastern Europe and why the relationships and thinking about NATO, EU and Russia is happening. I would like to go back to how dangerous it is to legitimize Russia phobia that's happening these days. Thank you. Thank you, Ivana, and especially what you said there on polarization there's a comment in the chat. Is it really timely to criticize NATO so sharply right now? I agree that it's important to understand the root causes of what's going on, but doesn't this take away from our condemnation of Putin. A topic that Russell Brand took on in a very viral video a couple of days ago where he talked about well it depends on when you start the clock but anyway that's our friend's contribution to the discussion. Eric Edmund based in Brussels, half Greek, half Swedish. I'm responding to some people on the chat who said, where's everybody from and where are they based? That's what we don't say because it's a tongue twister every time. It's three different nationalities in our fourth location. Thanks, Mechern. Thanks everybody. Building on what Ivan and Mai have been saying in your response to that question, Mechern, I think it is especially important to maintain a nuanced position when the debate is becoming so polarized because polarization leads to simplification and simplification leads very easily to a hate of the position that isn't your own. And hate is exactly the foundation on which governments build wars. And if you really think about it and you know at the risk of mansplaining now. Westplaining comes from mansplaining and mansplaining comes from the woke movement and the woke movement at its best helped us put the finger very clearly on a lot of injustices and at its worst really divided and alienated people and created a lot of divisions. And the thing here with calling having an opinion on Ukraine, Westplaining, if it comes from the West, it does exactly what the woke movement has done with social cases, which is really dividing people from their ability to formulate and develop a good position on a topic, which is the only basis on which you can engage with that topic. Otherwise, you know, the alternative would be to simply blindly follow anything that comes from that position. And from that geography and what comes from that geography, you know why don't we call it Westplaining Russia when we have a position on Russia. Now, what Westplaining is being used to do is to simply offer ad hominem argument against the position that we don't agree with. That is what Westplaining has been a placeholder for. And it's incredibly dangerous. And it comes from this very simplistic neoliberal culture that surrounds us, unfortunately. And look, look at how we've responded to, you know, look at cancel culture. Right now we're seeing the international relations version of cancel culture with Tchaikovsky concerts being canceled and Dostoevsky being taken off reading lists for schools. It means nothing is completely tokenistic. It has no real impact other than to completely polarize one population one community against another, which is exactly this isn't idiotic is not something that is done accidentally is done very much on purpose to alienate people from one side from people on on another, rather than to build connections with people who with whom we have commonalities on the other side, which is what what leads to a lasting peace, which is the only thing that one should be aiming for at the time of war, how to end it. Right. And really this kind of narrative does the exact opposite of that. And it does it in a calculated way. And it does it in a calculated way because look at Europe right now. The European Union is becoming an annex of NATO geopolitically. It is not an independent political actor in this region anymore, if it ever was, if it ever was, but we're looking at a boosting of that process with countries like Sweden and NATO and Finland, seriously considering NATO membership. You know, what, what is this parallel universe that we've woken up in, you know, countries that haven't, especially country like Sweden, where I'm partly from, like you said, hasn't had a one 200 years. We're talking about many to membership. How quickly that happens. And it is because this kind of polarized neoliberal culture is so prescient in society these days and is especially powerful. This was done also in the past, you know, German shepherds were called Alsatians after World War One, because people didn't want to call it German and a new Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener or something, you know, things, things like that. But it's much more powerful in our society today and therefore much more dangerous. And we need to constantly fight against it. Thanks Eric. You did Maya from Berlin. I would like to argue that the term West explaining is both useful and misapplied in this context, because the most common application of the term mansplaining is when a woman is talking about things in her experience and when a famous chemist is explaining something that she has discovered something that she wrote her PhD on and this guy comes in and says no, no, you're wrong. I haven't studied chemistry but in this TV series I saw this and that and, you know, to give us an idea that there are men who have such high self confidence self is high self confidence that they would aim they would correct a woman who has a PhD in chemistry on a question of chemistry that she probably wrote about. And this kind of well not just self confidence in the self but also denigrating view of women, thinking that women cannot possibly know chemistry that well that an average man wouldn't know better. That would be the concept that is best called mansplaining. And so it does not apply in the case of voicing an opinion on Ukraine. The case for West explaining Ukraine, where I would actually use the term is if you have an American telling a Ukrainian person is that the, that the president of Ukraine is a Catholic. And that we must support Ukraine because they have Catholic or something know that Ukrainian will tell no we actually have a Jewish president. And that is the case of West explaining because the West Westerners have this self confidence and denigrating view of other countries that would even give an American that the confidence to try to assert something against someone who actually lives there and has a better overview of the facts. And that is the case of West explaining but just having an opinion of whether it is beneficial for for Ukrainians to be in nature or not is, is not something that could be a character characterized this way. And the, sorry, metham did you want to get. No, I thought you finished sorry go ahead. The other thing that maybe I want to steer the discussion towards is the issue of censorship which we haven't seen here so much I mean we've seen some discussion about a banning of a check off ski and and so on which is seriously silly. But there's something more dangerous in that our countries have decided what information we're allowed to consume. I'm not generally someone to to validate a lot of calls for for for censorship I've seen overviews overused sometimes by controversial speakers who say, Oh, this these people they don't want me they must be censoring me if they want someone to speak other than me. If a female speakers invited rather than a man or we must be a censoring men now. I think it's overused but in this case, there is actually something worrying in that this is not a decision made under conditions of scarcity it's not the case that we can normally invite one person to speak to us it's not the case that we only have I don't know to 20 TV channels and so if we want to have one channel we must ban another channel. We, we are actually in a position where our governments are closing down websites the way that China is banning our access to websites. Even if someone wants to get their information from say Sputnik or Russia today. They're horrible pages but you're not able to access them you need a VPN in order to access them and and that is that this I think a very dangerous step because it's, it's a decision that you're not allowed to read something is not the decision that you should not be allowed to read something else is not that we want to promote women speakers or whatever but it is a decision specifically against certain outlets that you're not allowed to read if you live in Europe if you live in Brazil it's still okay. So, yeah, I think I think that's very dangerous and we should be very careful where this may lead. You did could I ask you about that. I mean as a technologist yourself. The, what's that expression the the Internet interprets censorship as damage and roots around it. Is it true that these kinds of censorship actions, whether or not we call them censorship I mean that's just called censorship is a good argument. I think that there is some some strisand effect, but not that much because of popular opinion, because popular opinion is that Russia today is not worth reading, and I would probably agree but yes I have seen some friends who have sought out to this website specifically because they got banned because they want to know what is so so dangerous that the government doesn't want them to to read it there's a little bit of that. I think it takes quite a lot of technical skill to to access this information now. It's not something that can get as as broad you know, when you strisand effect for those that don't know is the effect that if a famous president of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the United States of the replicate you can't just copy paste it so yeah. Thanks you did it. Lucas February, Brazilian based in Germany, go for it. Thanks man. I think we've heard some very very good points here throughout the discussion and I wanted to pick up on this team of xenophobia and also censorship that you did just mention. And one thing that I think perhaps I haven't mentioned yet is so what is what is Putin's worldview that he sells to Russian people that has played a part like Yanis alluded in his opening has played a major part in keeping him in power all this time. Well part of in my opinion of what keeps him in power is the fact that the time in which he rose to power so it's easy for us to forget now what an absolute disaster Russia was in the 1990s. One of the worst humanitarian catastrophes of the past few decades. So he came in the heels of that and you know the economy turned around so his base was built off of that at all but especially recently I think a large part of it is this narrative that Russia has been back into a corner that the West is basically seeking to destroy Russia just because you know and that we just essentially Rosaphobes and Xenophobes and we're against all things Russia just because as sort of like a carry over from the Cold War but also just out of you know racism pure and simple. So when we react with those in these ways in which I think we all agree that are irrational if you analyze it just a little bit of bending Russian culture and Russian individuals and attack people of Russian backgrounds in the crudest of cases on the streets in Europe which has happened like you mentioned in your introduction as well we're playing into his hands we're playing into this propaganda machine that he has created and if we want to read the world of Putin and Putinism the only way in which you can do this without generating a nuclear catastrophe potentially is by the Russian if the Russian people decide that they want to give it a Putin and we're not happy in our case here if you react in this way because then that can be sell domestic so domestically you know that this this world with this in fact justified because they can I can assure you that the Russian people are hearing about all of these instances of censorship that Russian people have experiencing abroad at the moment and of course they fill it in their skin as well with Western companies pulling out of Russia and sanctions that you know by and large affect common people the hardest so Russian people see all that so we're not helping people within Russia you know the brave Russian people who are resisting Putin at the moment the brave progressive to that are putting their freedom in their lives on the line by reacting in this way because there's 70% of the Russian people that we need to support putting that we need to convince here to flip to the other sides if we want to see a world free of this criminal essentially so if the if the moral points that's what that reacting in this way is wrong is just unjust and unfair and racist isn't enough which it really should be but if it isn't then perhaps we should keep this pragmatic point in mind that by doing so we're effectively playing the role that Putin has assigned to us thank you because beryl manager very shortly I would like to remember that since almost 10 years art and culture people in Russia are also in under pressure I mean they are not free we know that Moscow arts scene really deteriorated and so we must also remember that many art and culture people resigned as soon as the war became very dangerous so they resigned and in the near future we will see a refugee artist in our countries probably very soon I think and so as the m25 we have to support these people I think it's our responsibility to give them a kind of solidarity thank you thank you beryl a couple of comments from the chat lots of comments from the discussion of russia today and and sputnik someone says the bbc is british propaganda too i suppose that depends how you would define propaganda and adrian says as an EU citizen our focus needs also to be strongly on the meddling of the EU in this whole process and expose the hypocrisy of this union that has once again fostered disunity within and without okay let's move to juliana zita from germany um thank you mr mason mason sorry you i'll let you explain your origins because okay a very international bunch north mason mason with a greek stepfather raised by a greek stepfather living in germany another puzzle well what what did i want to say yes i i totally agree with what lucas said and also beryl i think what what what's the biggest question for me is culture music arts you know all those things are tools to unite people so if you cut these ties you're cutting the only you know relevant ties for people to really speak a common language beyond the the political language which we see today is really difficult to use people are misunderstanding each other also because they want to but i what i fear from here in germany for example from this perspective is that i'm seeing that you know why has putin started somehow this war supposedly to fight fight nazis i see much more you know fascist voices pop you know plopping up everywhere in the west you know i've never seen so many people you know talking about hitler like these days you know everyone was making this this uh you know putin putin is even worse than hitler and it's really giving me the shivers because it's kind of a really why even go there why do why why even having to to draw to to you know compare uh the situation and then thinking about it i'm seeing kind of like there are forces who would like to take the occasion to rewrite history i've read the terms like now the germans are afraid of the big even coming again and i'm like you know that the second world war was not started by russia right i'm not quite sure if people are mixing up history all over the place and this is what shocking to me so and additionally with the censorship to be honest it's kind of i've i'm asking myself what young people take out of this you know out of all this information that's out there that's kind of uh not having you know you cannot clearly distinct anymore between what's fact and what and on from from which side some perspectives perspectives are coming from like yes of course it's important to condemn the war and uh and putin but also have the feeling that some voices and i think some people said it already tonight uh have just waited you know to bring out the russian phobia or the xenophobia so what i'm essentially saying is i fear that we will have a rise of fascism further you know these groups will be now not so visible but they will unite under the in this mess of the war and become just stronger you know as you can see maybe now in in syria out of different reasons but also in germany also in germany you know parties like dfd and so on are taking this occasion to voice um their perspective on it and of course they're gathering people uh behind them now much stronger and again what's really missing in the scenario is uh is a left uh opposition to all of that and the left is in itself kind of fighting now over west planning in east planning whatever and when it's really the time to to stick together you know to to find ways to end the war we are again in this intellectual sphere of you know comfortable keyboard warrior sitting in a in a home with no bombs over the head you know just sharing opinions and i think this is an extraordinary time to witness such a war with social media and to see what people really make out of it and what really comes out of their mind um yes thank you julienne and yeah it's so important to chart the the rise of fascism the normalization of fascism here it's been interesting to watch the um the uh as of battalion and how the western media especially in the u.s has changed their tune on on how they described them in the last couple of years it started off as neo-nazi now they're just far right and one of them was interviewed on cnn um a couple of days ago so clearly atmosphere is changing and it's very dangerous and and potentially even more explosive than it already is i think we are going to close with that we've reached the top of the hour thank you so much for watching you out there and for all your comments thank you to our panel if you would like to be part of the solution uh and not just be a keyboard warrior but actually get out there and try and confront the establishment i'm not talking about taking up weapons but confronting the establishment to fix systemic problems like uh what we're seeing here in ukraine and also to follow through on our uh our policy proposals and make sure that they become a reality because we're a movement but we also have electoral um electoral wings and uh political parties uh under our umbrella then please join us the website is dm25.org slash join it will take you a few seconds to be part of this thank you again to our panel and to you out there and join us again please for the next discussion two weeks from now same time