 Magandang araw po sa kanilang lahat. Ito po ang ating programa dito sa TV UP na kultura, sining at iba pa. Ako po si Butch de Lisa, ang inyong host at kasama ko ang host dito ay si Neil Garcia. Magandang araw. Ngayong araw po, this morning or this day, our episode will be on Philippine art. And specifically Philippine visual arts and sculpture. Ang sining po na pwede na ating tingnan. Minsan pwede ng hawakan, paglaruan. Pwede ng bilhin, pwede ng bilhin, pahilamin. And of course there are many many kinds of art, many many kinds of artists. So today we've put together a panel of artists and people engaged in the arts to talk about various aspects of what it takes to be an artist to begin with. Ano na ba nangyari sa eksena ngayon ng sining sa Pilipinas? At pakikilala namin sa inyo ang ating mga panauhim na yung araw. Mulas na aking kaliba, unang-unang si Louis J. Jr. pero mas kilila sa pangalang Junior. Si Junior isa sa mga primerong exponent ng pinataog na site specific art. At installation art dito sa Pilipinas. Pintor siya, iskultor siya. Ang daming klasing art na ginagawa ni J. Jr. At pasaman siya natin ngayon mula sa kanyang lunga sa Los Baños. Tumusta Junior. Namya, mihita tanong ako sa background mo bilang kung pa paano ka. Pwede kasi alam ko, very interesting yung pagpasok mo sa arts eh. At sa kanyang kana naman ay si Ampita Kabata sa ating group o hiaraw, si Kiri Dalena. Alam niyo yung matunog yung pagpalang Dalena. Si Kiri ay isang very accomplished visual artist. Sculptor, filmmaker at ang kanyang trabaho ay may napakalakas na aspekto ng social and political concerns. In fact, gagagaling lang ni Kiri mula sa Marawi. At baka pwede siya magkwento mamaya tungkol sa kanyang mga nakita doon. Sa aking kana naman ay si, pinakakanan ay si Kaibigang Mepps Ndaya, Imelda K. P. Ndaya. Siguro kilalan niyo sa bilang isa sa ating mga pangunahing pintor at print maker. At installation artist din. Si Mepps sa isa sa mga nangunas sa groupong Kasibulan. At again, Mepps could probably tell us a little more about Kasibulan and other artists' groups in this country. To my immediate right, isang Kaibigang ko, wala nung kasama pa kami dito sa Kuleyo sa UP. Alam ko, medyo naga artist din si Jack na, nakikita kita nung nag-dogrowing, pero ang talaga nags-sketching. Pero ang talaga ang tabahan ni Jack ngayon, among many other jobs he's done. Alam ko, naging administrator kapayata ng Philippine Fiber Authority. Jack is a businessman, is an entrepreneur, and he is the managing director of the Galerie Wakinn Group. Bakit kaya naging Wakinn, kasi Jack na? And he also publishes the country's leading art magazine, Art Plus. So ito ang ating very, very high-powered and interesting group of artists. Very honored to have them with us today. And I think the first question we can ask them is their journey into art. If they can describe very briefly their journey into art. Paano ba kayo, nakpumasok dito sa larang ito? Lato-lato ang juny, kasi alam ko juny, ang trabawa ko pa nang bilang houseboy ba yung nasabi ko? Oh, houseboy. And embald sa Maddo. Oh my God. Mortician. Actually, I was born an artist. Ever since mali. Yes. Sangayon sa Agusan Kabadbarang? And that's serious to me. Malisa ko. Lumayas ako saan. Kasi ayon ng papato ang Jack na gusto niyang magkatulad niya. Business. Business. So ginawa ko, lumayas ako para masol ang problema. So I made up in Sibo where I studied in high school in Sibo. So during my high school there, mayroon silang elective na fine arts. So I pushed young as a college and there was a fine arts hero. At nating ko wala ka lahat doon. So na-andang na umus yung pera ko. So wala na kong pambayal sa dormitorio. Ang handa pa kong nag-trabaho. So that's the reason, ang sinabi mo nang nag-inbald sa Maddo. So kita ko nang Johnny Thorse sa isang malaking nunaraya ko. Oh. So nag-amplaya ko, after one month nalaman ng mayarang in-check. In-check din. No. At graduate ako na high school. No. So ginawa niya akong clear. So pinpapalo ako nang mga paper as a debt certificate in China. Then after another month na discover niya na magaling ako pwente sa art. So sabi niya, ginawa niya ako. So sa office, sabi niya malita ko mahose kasar. Cay ko pwente. Sige sabi niya, gumilikan ng mga ganin mo. So yung mga pinaka mga ganin. So sabi ko ang gumilikan. So siguro ang malingin-in-check ko. So happy si ko. Mayang papara sa akin. Tapos, ang pag-inigirang pinigay, sabi gumilikan ng Max Pacto na sa ngayong. Sabi ko na Max Pacto. I-make up ka na. I-follow yung pag-make up sa kata. Hindi ko alam parong gagawa. I-I-grow up in a secure life. Lumakiya kong hiya na. So being there at the time. This is my parents every day at the same time. The same pole at the same time. So iyak ko nang iyak nalagay. Kasi gala na. Ayaw ko nang mga mowe. Kasi kong uwiya ko, hindi ako nang maging artist. Gusto ko nang maging artist. So yun, naging make up artist ko. I'm proud to say I'm the best. I'm so proud. Sige, Judy, mamiya. Ata nang yung papano na apetrohan yan yung... Senior wall. Ito naman si... ...draining into art through embalming. Through the mortician's work. That's very interesting. Ata naman si Kiri. Ano ko? Ano ko Kiri? Ano kasi MPLB na yung... ...human ecology ba? So how do you get from there to... ...like filmmaking and sculpture? Eddie, there are no hard and fast rules to get into art. And in my case, in context, I came from a family of artists. So both my dad and my mom were artists and... Sige, sabi na natin yung pangalan nila. My mother is Julie Leuch, isang school dog. Tapos yung tatay ko ay isang pintor, si Danilo Dalena. At lumaki kami na... Surrounded by their works. At saka sa ko, Bata pa lang ako, natuto na din ako mag sculpture. Mas dahil, yung nana ko yung walang studio kaya... ...sa dining table kami, siya nag-atrabaho. Yung tatay ko nag-pipinta, pero may studio siya, pero hindi namin nakikita kung paingas siya magpinta. Pero lumaki din kami na... ...nakita namin yung struggle ng mga artists. Hindi sila. Nahirapan sila sa kita. May trabaho sila bilang teachers. At saka nag-atrabaho sila sa magazine. Tapos siguro yung sa akin, ang mahalaga dun, pinincarriage kami ng magulang namin to pursue something outside of the arts. So nandun yung malaya ang sabi nila, malaya kayo to not to become artists. At saka, alam nyo na yung contexto na ang hirap maging artist. This was in the 80s. Struggle din. Tapos yung tatay ko was na walang din ang trabaho dahil sa martial law. Tapos kaya nandun din yung nakita ko na ang hirap na maging artist. At doan, nakita ko na na mahirap, magulo, very intense din, minsan yung mag-carrelation artist. And I wanted to pursue something sa environment and that's why I studied human ecology. Yes, but I guess the universe has a way of bringing you back. So it was through film. I studied in U.P. Las Baños. Tapos, at that time, galaberin yung ferment ng student movement. I became involved in the University Student Council. I became an officer and chaired Gabriela Youth. But then I saw that very few people were shooting or documenting. Also around us there were factories may mga strike and that's when I started to borrow my sister's camera because she pursued film. Oh, your sister said? Yes, my sister is a filmmaker and I guess that's how it started. So I started with cinema We're going to have Sarah here in a future episode. Pero nabangit may U.P. U.P. L.D. Actually, we're U.P. because she's Meps. She's also a U.P. fine arts. Meps. Advertising. Advertising ako noon. Actually, pano ako na pasok sa art? Malit pa ako, alam ko lang, gusto ko mag-drawing ng mag-drawing. Pero hindi ko alam yung art talagang art, masan nag-drawing lang ako kasi ang napaligiran sa akin folk art ng paite, yun ang galing ang magulang ko ang mga kamag-anak namin nag-i-stack ng wood carving sa bahay na ibebenta chaka mga taka tapos nakikita ko magagaling talagang mag-drawing ang mga tagapayte chaka mag-curve. Tapos ang exposure ko sa art naman, hindi ko naman alam yung Philippine art no, batap ako kasi wala ka naman makikita ang Philippine art doon. So ang nakikita kung art yung binabasa ng nana ko, tatay ko sa buhay ni Agony N. Ecstasy o Life N. Van Gogh, may mga pictures doon. Kaya masyadong disjunkano, folk art yung alam ko or pop culture chaka mga comics nakikita ko. Pero pagdating ko sa high school, dong ko lang una nakita yung mga singing, pero world art pa rin. Yung identity pala yung sinasabi ko bakit hindi ko naman, hindi ko naman mundo yung David or Michelangelo o yung buhay ni Van Gogh, although mabuti naman alam natin yun. Kaya yung identity ng Pilipino parang nasa akin mas na umpisahang kung agumawa ng abstract art kasi yung process ng doing art parang abstract talaga di ba, yung you draw from your subconscious it's just passion, sheer passion you like to do it. Pero yun parang naging ano sa kabataang ko kasi siguro product ko nung panahon natin mas matanda naman siguro kasi ng konte yung first quarter storm na panahon, talaga nanggahanap ka ng relevance ng iyong ginagawa at palaging dapat nagsisilbi sa iyong kapwa. Parang nadala ko yun ng ngayon, pero as artist palaging parang ibon lang ako na gusto kumangta kung ano gusto kumangta. At what point did you kind of hit your strike or find your niche? Kasi nilang ang elements ng art mo kung di may story ko na na elemento kailang kailang mo nakita, na ito talaga yung trapabong next day na Maybe butch we can ask that of all the art Have you discovered your subject? And when and how did you discover it? But we'll go back to that, right? Salamat po. Again, I'd like to ask you Jack, I've known you for a long long time. How is it that after all these businesses and enterprises you got into, you settled into art itself as a business? Ang may kasalanan dyan butch siya na eh, si Vergy Moreno. Kasi well in high school interested na ako sa literature sa lasalo at siya ka we were part of the literary magazine but nung pumasak ako sa UP naka nanakon ng teacher sa humanities ang pangalan niya I will never forget her she's still active up to this day by Vergy Moreno siya yung nagturo sa amin ng humanities kasi well sa lasal medyo expose ka na ng kontin sa European art or American western art but si Vergy para really encouraged us to see the excitement and beauty of Philippine art and culture so it exposed siya kami that was 1970 pero kinekwento na niya kami tungkolke Cesar Legaspi H.R.O Campo Manansala, Ang Q-Cook together with juxtaposing this with with yung mga western art and culture so that really kind of got my excitement going and so yung na mention mo kanina na involved tayo sa Fiber Authority Totoyon na siya yung nagtugma kasi after high school after UP Business Economics after Business Economics na ano na involved ako sa Investment Banking but then after that na invite kami ni Secretary Bong Tango ng Department of Agriculture to join his management team so nung sumama kami din sa kanya some people from the business community and from universities na sa Maynila inasain niya ako sa export crops tapos so ito naman binigay nila sa amin yung fiber sector so we were made to attend a lot of negotiations abroad sa mostly sa Europe and the States London, Rome, Geneva and ang maganda dun now looking back, napakaganda na ang sikip ng perdiem halos yung binibigay na allowance kasi government employees nga kami ang binibigay na allowance butch ano lang, exakto lang so wala kang magagawa dun sa kung misap pag may extra days na libre na realize ko na pagpumunta ka sa museum halos wala kang gagastosin yung mga kasama namin kung misan yung mga delegado galing sa US pag may 3 days break na tanong sila sa kapupunta ay pupunta ko sa Brighton pupunta ko sa Geneva 3 days kasi na break yung conference namin so kala mo ay interest mo sa spain? dun, nagsimula ke Virgin Moreno at yung saan sa interest na encouraged nya pag tapos nung wala ka ng magawa dahil wala kang funds eh pagpumunta ka sa museum iba libre, iba 1 pound, 1 dollar, 2 dollars buong araw ka na dun mga mga mga ka na dun sa mga nakikita mo sa museum So actually kung 5 or 30 days mo sana nagsimula pumasok sa Brighton kasi wad day mga 1983 na naglalakad ako sa Makati na naligawa ko sa isang gallery sa May Makati pumasok ako dun maraming mga senior citizens elderly gentlemen nagpipiltura sila dun yung isa may ilik siya gumawa ng mga painting mga clowns na bali-bali ang leg at mga nakakatakot na mga mga pangsabong na manok So gandang nito ah gusto ko nga dun si Ankyukok na pala yun tapos may isang mama na mahaba ang bigotin niya may ilik siyang gumawa ng anatomy pala si Cesar Legaspineon So si Malang ng dun si Onip Olmedo ng dun si Benkab pagnasa may nila siya at nandun at si Sanso pag nasa may nila siya nandun So I go wow na nalaglag ako for joy to sleep sa isang grupo na nandun pala silang top artist Sige siya Ang lalaking pangalan ng mga binanggit mo kanina You don't need it You have a money and ngayon na marami pa tayong pag-usapang mga pangalan tulad niyang And among those names will soon rank our guests for today Pag-usapan natin ngayon kung pa pa nga ba nga akadating sa ganyang klasing ang isang ang isang artist ang nagsisimula sa sa kulehiyo, sa nansangan How do you get to be somebody like an uncuful or a Malang or Cesar Legaspineon My more particular question is for a new artist right now how easy or how difficult is it to break into the art scene Ano ba yung mga challenges na hinaharap ng isang bagong artist ngayon at unique ba yun sa kanilang generation Pagkat ngayon there's so much information overload na you can in fact promote your art yourself through social media through information technology So yun nang ang gusto natin itanong paano ba nilang nadescobre yung subject nila na rinig natin kanina from mam kahipe na nadescover niya yung identity Filipinoness is important and she discovered it early in her life What about Juni and Kiri here na nadescovering na meron po ba kayong subject na paulit-ulit yung binabalikan sa inyong singing paano nyo po na discovery on Chakisama mo na jen, Juni How does subject find its form In other words how do you know na ito I need to make a sculpture out of this or does form proceed subject Meru kang kahuit yan at iisipin mo nilang kung nunggagay mo doon At posibly rin maraming subject Hindi lang ita What's the process? There's a lot of questions You know naman what we mean Anyway I major in sculpture I'm quite good at it but along the way it was during up to this in years and also at the same time it was the hippie years So it was a hippie I smoke grass every day but at the same time exposed to activism In fact my earliest work are before Adibayan and other prints that are doing social realism But along the way maybe because I'm a provincial and I'm in a sculptor so nagtrip ako doon sa installation I really don't know that it was installation It started installation late 60s while still in Calais I have my first one-man shop installation outdoor in Yuppi Dilliman 1970 So I've been doing installation for the last 47 years that's almost practically my whole life as an artist And I think it's because I'm a nature boy and at the same time I go for as a Mipsi at a while ago ay yung pagka Pilipino mo So I was involved with activism So yung question during our time is anubang Pilipino art? And I answered it very easily because during my time Pilipino art is western art No, kahit na kami gusto namin pa-kita ang kaluluan ng pagka Pilipino Very few guides Very few example But ando yung adhikain ando yung passion So in my case being a nature boy lumaki ako sa provincia we have a big farm ando yung agosan river where I learned to swim doggy style et cetera So involved mako or exposed ako malakita ko sa nature talaga So during the time I was a working student yung tindi nga ako pinaparal ng parents ko So isa sa mga ginagawa ko ay ay mamumulot ng mga art material kasi wala kong pambileng But during the time for the first three years I was a scholar na yung boy ba anubang artist for Scott Pure Three years ako nakatira sa kanila I was treated as a son So exposed ako sa Scott Pure talaga So advanced yung learning ko kay sa college so I got a boarding college But just the same hindi ako kontin to dun sa sculpture I was looking for something to express my soul kaya yung first installation ko ang tin ko ay bayanihan because even now I always say that look at your backyard it's there We have a lot of things that Filipino we have a rich culture before the Spanish came So yun ang binang balik-balikan ko At dahil another element na hindi ako nakakabili ng material na mumulot na lang ako ng mga gamit-gamit So because I was a sculptor na mga trade-imensional work So na evolved ito na halo yung paka-activist na halo yung paka-hibi Being hippie is nature lover yun na na reinforce yung paka nature lover ko So gawa ako ng gawa hindi ko alam na installation yun I don't know it was installation so it was later up there one decade na pinangsina ko ng CCP na I think it was during re-albanist time So siya yung nakumpisan na o installation so it's okay with me you can name it in any name as long as I'm just doing my thing So yun, na evolved yun na ngayon aksep din naman yung installation So I'm really happy for the development ng art Now as far as your other question like anong kaibahan nung panahon namin at panahon ngayon Basically it's the same except that structurally it's very different In our time naman silpon nating and we cannot exhibit because during our time committee moves isang gallery lang ata yung art gallery So hindi ko tulad ngayon na wow nakalat yung galleries So ang mga bata ngayon wala probleman My nephew is graduating today I mean this year Fine Arts Nag-su-su-na na goon mention nag-su-su pangas na CCP So during our time we don't have that So structurally malaking kaibahan basically it's the same We are active kami ngayon Activo silang ngayon especially because the option is very strong and a lot more colors of course lot of buyers So yun ang kasabutan but basically it's the same It's the same and after installation nag-platoy itong art if you study Philippine art after nang 13 moderns nag-platoy to din a way back in na in-introduce yung modernist culture na bago na naman ng takbo and I was beneficiary doon kasi after this nanyakon this color So after that nag-platoy na naman din we have installation we have conceptual art so many things of performance art So nabobuhay na naman but after this for a while nag-platoy na naman sa tingin ko lang So what is active now is ceiling Maraming kumikita mga Sige, mamaya papasubang natin yung aspecto na yun But I think when Kiri answers her question she can also bring up that her insights on the difference between the situation during her time and now how easy or difficult is it for a new artist to break into this art scene now compared to your time But also she will answer the question of the subject first How did you find your material? How did your material find you? Well finding the material I don't think I had to go out of my way to find the material it was there and it was just a matter of looking at it differently meaning I was I was already well I really started not wanting to deal with people but it was inevitable like social problems you cannot I felt it as were you anti-social in the beginning or misanthropic I was very like my first organizations in U.P. Los Baños were like the U.P. Los Pansoy Society where we have a garden every morning we would it was I think started by the son of Jevi Arao as in fact so we come together we have a garden but then there are two people when there are rumbles the fraternity men would destroy our garden and then red cross these are my organizations and but it it became inevitable I felt that you cannot disengage from what is happening in the bigger context so activism became also important and for me because I was shy the camera became my entry point the camera became a way of entering this this realm and speaking it was an instrument that was helpful but at that time I wasn't thinking of okay this is art this is this is going to be an art work I was just it's advocacy yes I was just doing what I felt was necessary but what drew you to sculpture in terms of sculpture to visual arts the visual arts she works with I work with a range because of medium like sculpture, photography installation video I think it was crucial that in 2006 there was an abduction of an activist Jonas Burgos oh yes that's right I remember him and their family approached us and said how can we help us filmmakers and at that time I didn't have my own camera and I couldn't shoot a video so I decided to work on existing photographs so I asked them do you have existing photographs of Jonas and they invited me to their house and I looked at their their albums and I saw this photograph of Joe Burgos the father of Jonas who was the editor chief of WeForum and it was a photograph of the newly released Joe Burgos he was released from being detained during Marcos and he was embracing his son Jonas and from there I decided to just delete the son from from the photograph and created a video out of it and I think it opened an idea about how can work with existing materials and create something beyond that so that was that was one I think seminar work but the social conscience in your work has been consistent from the beginning so it's a function I think of your education in Las Baños as well yes my education inside and outside of the classroom and the family background and everything and I was going to ask about that because you're kind of unique in this situation both of your parents are artists how does that both help and hinder you oh it helps in the sense that you're already familiar with with the scene in the sense of who are the artists what are their works but but I never because I never studied fine arts I didn't look at it at the historical context or see them as oh this is you didn't have the formal training I didn't have the formal training in fact I saw them as natural it's a natural circumstance and I would be surprised that young people would be odd of course I'm odd with them but they're just mom and dad yes and also other artists I didn't see artists as different from from educators from other people are pursuing other careers it's just natural and of course I understood but I only really understood it of course when I became part of the art scene and and then I understood how complicated it can go my question of how easy is it to break into the art scene during your time and what are your thoughts on the art scene now and the challenges facing young artists yes in my case I didn't think that it was there was no intention to break into anything I felt that I was comfortable wherever I was just practicing I didn't consider myself you didn't consciously strive to be recognized no no the impulse was not to be recognized or to to gain awards or even to sell it was it was a pure necessity like I felt that it was like breathing yes it's natural and all of these validation awards they were very far from from my mind oh dito naman can I yes sure sure which can I just add to that because paganda yung point na ni raised ni ni Junior siya ni Kirino and Nils questioning because ni I think there are three components in the art scene the first is the cultural side the second is the economics side of it and the business side and the third is the artist himself no so and the creative side so the three of them and ngayon now nil there is a convergence of all three factors no because the the economic side is doing very well no unlike in the 80s where the economy had stagnated thanks to marshalo right but now because the economy is going well it's we're next to China in the entire world ang ang ganda na economic growth natin ilang taon na yan it's translating into a growth in the art market that's the question because nil ganito yan eh the economy is unprecedentedly growing and second you will see that there is a real estate boom because art has to go somewhere there are four places where art goes to one is to the to the to the museums great art right and the second is to mga bahay kasi art will have to be hung in offices or in houses in rooms living rooms the third is in the artist's studio if nobody wants to buy it and the fourth is in of course I sad to say they're really really bad art so walang pupuntahan talaga yan but anyway dun sa ngayon ngayere juni ang ganda kasi even young artists today can be full time artists nung araw nung time na 10 60 70s the artist had to be meps they had to be teachers professors in the university they most of them went to advertising o laso and the gaspi HR was in the newspapers malang was in the cartoons ilustrationist parial ang ilito antonyo where faculty members so hindi ka pwede mabuhay as a full time artist noon ko kunti lang sila may be your dad was one of them talagang pure artist but ngayon many of them survive with their art they don't have to have let's just hold it there for a minute because I really want to explore that I really want to explore that part of the art scene naon but before we go there let me just go back a bit to Meps because she comes from that generation late 60s early 70s na kayong inhinira siya ninyo nakapag-aral pa kayo under the masters or people would become masters yun na Hoya yun na chapet and so on so how did you find your own parang your own your own voice as an artist under the shadow of these luminaries yeah my teachers were Hoya Constantio Bernardo Rod Perez Abueva I was happy under their shadows pero may ibang questions nagpapasalamat ako I've been under them but looking back yung landas ko may diyo mahaban ay importante sa akin yun as I mentioned before finding the identity kasi wala ano uni warami hindi minigay yung UP education ko at that time I thought I didn't know printmaking I didn't know the image of the Filipino siguro yun nahanaparin natin ang ganayon so looking back consciously I had to search for what is Filipino by working as a researcher at the National Library and writing for cultural publications na sa National Library yung paghapo naman na sa PAP ako Ophelia Helbison-Tiki was there she's my practically my mentor sa Hore Bokobo kaya morning afternoon ang araw na yun side by side kaya parang natural din na naghanapakon yung mga boxer codecs hindi pa naman nakikita yung nung araw sa kayo mga prints nung araw of course nakita ko yun keben kablater mas madali sa kanya being in London ang daming tinatapo na mga lumang lithographs na inspired din ako dun sa mga gawa ni Ben Paano po na pili yung printmaking bilang pangunahing medium mo? Kasi ano yun nagandahan ako sa seal screen sa UP seal screen na yung ginagawa namin na pahcommercial of course come advertising yung kinuha ko pero masyado kung hinewalay magdodrowing ako para sa illustration ng PAP com pero pag dumating sa painting ko yung wang yun ang pakelaman yun ako lang yun yung yun yung natural poetry ganoon anyway tinatahako yung where do my themes come from yun ngayong identity chaka yung history na una pero ang criticism parang very impersonal ng lamang yung gawa mo yung mga ninyanuno ok lang basta nag-enjoy ako gumawa na ibay bang kulay yung pangalawa kung face looking back nasa bahay lang ako e parang lubabas yung mga problema ko nakumbayan yung ano mga identity mo being woman kasi nakakulong ako sa bahay nagalaga nang anak sa kanang asawa natural din yung mga gamit ko sa bahay yung yung ginagawa kung art tapos nalaybil ako feminist before I even knew what was feminism kasi hinihingan ako ng mga artist talk about kung anong gawa so naging feminist nang ako muna bago kong pinag-aralan kung ano ba yung feminism isa ka sumanik tayo ng group kung kasi bulan kasi bulan yung pala nga kasi pare-pareho kami whether single may asawa o ano e we felt subjugated yung mabay sa art scene kami yung organizers sa mga big organizations pero ang aming pinopromot yung mga kalalakihan yung aming trabaho kami sekretari nag-asula nag-layout nag-promote ang mga teka muna gawin ang akayan natin tayo tayo muna nag-ahanap kami ng simbolo yung kasi bulan simbolo bilang babae na distinct at yung mga nakabata din gawain ang kababaihan sa Pilipinas gano ka importante itong mga artist groups nung mga bakar dahana mga artist sa arts dito sa Pilipinas may hamro ka ba John Yee na isang group o talagang Lonel kala na but there are these groups ndi ba maybe an important sort of related question is are you keeping tabs on the practices of other artists and are you consider any other artists as a rival or a source of influence or inspiration in other words are you aware of similar practices may being concerned and just to my thing I isolated myself in Los Panos accidentally or aeromically I was with gawain ba for three years but the only apprentice of me that was never been in perspective pangin pa talagay ang kabahok so makalayo kami nigakulad ni ruta di ba artista na dumaan sa kanya na kukuha yung skill niya but what influence me from the day is that is the mind kasi ang subversive pag tong talagay na subversive pag tapos at this time makulit yung ulo niya in fact if you think about an indigenous material for people kasi the only difference between me and him is that kasi siya makulit siya kita siya ng oral gagawin niya but yung value so yung suburong na other wise nothing sub panakalaman yung nabala ni siya malayo niya sa aking wala naman na influence sa aking if you are aware of my work you can see na hindi mo matri-tris matri-tris nang artist I can see that very grumpy hindi mo matri sa foreign artist o sa local artist it's physically my number in fact I don't print art book I read science book it's still dumb na may nakakilapos maybe because I'm not interested or I don't want to be influenced so may araw-araw hindi hindi namin yung malibroyan sa security yung mind ko pero ako rin nga yung maips nakahanap ako na yung bang expression sino ba ako 50 ok so bakit ba wala tayo expression na galing sa kaloba as pinoyan so vertically wala tayo ng panana western na it's western but then we have maips kaya so ito yung mga taon na nang boboting ano ba tayo sino ba tayo so yun ang nilakbay ko talaga sa installation we can ask Kiri na same question do you keep tabs on the practices of your contemporaries yes only because I am interested in the work that other people other artists are producing and in my case I don't limit myself to visual artists because I like to read Filipino writers performance artists theater dancers musicians and I have this expansive interest in the various fields of art and it's not to keep tabs or because of rivalry but purely curiosity and interest general interest and I am certain that it also influences my work whether consciously or not but of course the time I can be very social in terms of organizing, watching and just absorbing what is being produced in the Philippine art scene but the time comes when you really have to fight and struggle for your own time in space and isolate to make your own work and a lot of it's a kind of metronomic or pendular movement between like social life and then isolation Yes and many times it's the isolation or the time that you have for yourself and the art that you have to really fight for prioritize because I do understand what Meps was saying about the tendency of women artists to okay if there's a lack or for example we take on that lack we take on roles which are not necessarily creative and because I guess we have that natural tendency to to really forgiving for saying this but be self sacrificing and there is that line where you are already giving up things that you could do yourself as an artist and it's always a struggle I think because there's a lot of merit in organizing and helping also other artists but the line comes when you feel that but I also have something to say from what I have seen and that's where you have to fight for it I'm sure it's even harder for women artists to have families and there but the other side of struggle is recognition and reward so I'd like also to ask we can ask that question about that aspect of institutional validation how important is it to receive an award because may be another related question has to do with what Jack brought up regarding the commercial and the economic side of art that applies to object art the art that can be bought and collected but what about installation art what about community art the art that's not meant to be sold and I think that's where the heart of at least Kiri and Juni saying basically they do what they want and they don't think about whether it's going to be sold or not let's get to the ground follow their passion let's get to the ground then is that division sharp is that division should that division be maintained can I just tie it up because I wanted to go to the point that now Juni was saying in the past there was a wave that art had gone up during after the 13 moderns and then it reached a plateau and now it's gone up again so I think that's also because that many artists young artists and even the senior artists have a lot of things to say their creative juices are really coming out and overflowing so that on the cultural aspect there is now an upswing and then tumug mapadon butch yung economic upswing so yung sa cultural field may maraming magandang sinasabi yung young contemporary artists tapos pati yung mga modernists parang na ano din sila na enganyo din sila they're also saying they're also saying very interesting things with their own voices so tumug mapadon yung nangyari sa cultural side at yung tumug mapadon yung nangyari sa economic side so na it's really a great time to be an artist in the Philippines pero parang tuto obang maraming mga bata ng artist natin yun mas market conscious din at magproduce ng trabaho para sa market kasi nakikita nila at i-bendang at i-bendang kung kumisa yun ngayong nakakahinaya kasi yung point nil kasi pano naman yung mga hindi yung commercial yung yung end point kasi may ano rin yun na may the question of integrity and compromise so kung artist ka at pinuproduce mo is market driven or may concern for for commercial buy and buy pero is ato natin basic question nil maso mga ba yung maso mga bang gumawa ng trabaho para gusaho nga itanong kaya i-brought it up is that a bad thing hindi naman masama gumawa ng art to make a living we respect that kailangan yun pero kanya-kanya tayo ng motivation and we should respect that like me kailang ako rin mabuhay pero pag gumagawa ako nang siguro may commission to work yun for kabuhayan pero hindi ko pa rin iya ano yung pipiliin ko rin yung pinapagawa sakin nasang ayon dun sa gusto kung gawin nakikipag-usap ako sa kanya kung anong gusto niya at yung pag-imbabaw din yung integrity ko yun ang ano ko pagpipinta para mabuhay kasi ako rin simpili lang eh basta makabili lang ako makakain hindi ako masyadong mapaghanap ng returns gusto ko kasi yung magagawa ko yung gusto kung gawin is there a line you draw between work that you do for selling and work that you do for yourself that's the best one is never think that art making is anano it's never anano ok that's his position but it's good you keep on it you'll notice maybe maybe it will be critical with your work but it's anano ko ay if you want to sustain your art work support your art making work something else have a day job to talk makchalito tawag lang yung bala sa mga kasi mahirap yun there are many things that you can do to support your art but never do the thing an art movement mismo ang gagawin mo ng negocio bakit ko hindi pwede it's never negocio po mo but if you are ready to do it you'll say persistent about it maybe you'll recognize ang hindi kagalito ang makuchalito but you have to support your art because if you will not support your art the tendency is that you are using the art as anano ko ay ok what's your take on that carry what's your take on that well well first I don't subscribe to the idea it's good to be an artist now because there's also an economic upswing there are a lot of gallery spaces now I mean I think it's the idea of being an artist should be completely independent from that we have romantics here sorry perhaps we have different ideas about it I just feel that even if there is no economic opportunity if you have to produce your art work or your art and you have to it's a matter of life or death or you just have to produce it and if you have to I believe in the fluidity and spontaneity of the concept of art if you think you're a sculptor but it's impossible to create a sculpture because of circumstances perhaps you'll transform into another kind of artist using a different medium I mean that's part of the creativity or the the magic perhaps of art and I also think that okay if you don't if you don't necessarily have to you don't you don't advise young artists to produce art commercially or with that in mind maybe the fallback is at least you might get some institutional validation and is that a good enough exchange? Well first it's already tragic if you're producing art because of commercial viability and because of validation because validation has its merits in the sense that I remember that going to places outside of Manila they immediately define you as artists if you have an award so it's sort of an easy it's a platform that we can really maximize to push some forms of art or some sectors of artists validation or awards can be symbolic for example it's true that I don't care about awards or validation but sometimes you can use it as a woman artist to push for this advocacy of putting women artists at the forefront or a kind of art work at the forefront if installation is not popular, if painting is what is popular and you get validation for another kind of work then it's sort of you just use it complicates, makes complex the scene which is good I think Am I answering the question? Yes you are but we're close to wrapping up so let me just ask you by way of summing up the way you look at Philippine art today where are we headed? where is Philippine art going? what's the state of Philippine art and where should it go? Can I just say something about because interestingly I agree with what Juni and Kiri are saying that for an artist to succeed they have to put their heart and soul into their art they have to love what they're doing anybody, any artist who is trying to do their art for commercial success or for validation sometimes they fail because they sort of adjust too much to the market and they're not sincere in what they're doing so unbelievably I'm on the same side as you are that most of the artists that we ourselves in our gallery carry are the artists that are true to themselves Ang art kasi and money are funny it's like water the more you try to grip it and grab it the more it will flow off so the artists who have become very successful we always mention ang Kyukwok is never really thought of commercialization from the very beginning in the 60s nobody bought his art But I don't have commission I don't exist in chapel but it's true that's a good point so my point is that if survival is the issue many artists are surviving today because of the economic situation so nangyari ngayon even though there are thousands of artists because there are maybe 100 galleries they're able to survive and if they survive they can do greater art kasi may rap gumawa na magandang art kung wala ka makain e di ba so yung iba meron ng mga patrods mas nakakagawa sila nang mas magandang art pero maybe we bring up the idea of value which is what makes a particular artwork valuable and that's where institutional validation comes in and the gatekeeping function of institutions like UP and CCP come in once you have an artist who has received recognition then more or less may value na yung work so that's the place assuming the validation process is a board of course we also have that problem I think local art criticism is not mature or developed enough and that is why one critic's pronouncement can easily be refuted by another one and you can hardly have a consensus but i'm thinking that distinguishing validation from commercial consideration because in fact, mas magandang na for me yung validation sometimes kasi it doesn't necessarily mean commercial success like if you are let's say but some of art critics at UP are validating or recognizing the work of installation and community artists whose artworks cannot be sold i mean who would like to do you put an installation piece as large as this room into your living room? and installation kasi na yung although many people really like it is it correct to call it ephemeral i mean there is an ephemeral aspect to it so it's situational art you cannot recreate a situation anymore may hirap siyang dalin sa ibang lugar or may hirap siyang itago for a long time so probably that's the only reason why installation art doesn't have the same parang not that many people collect it kasi may hirap itago may hirap ilipat once na nilipat may yung installation ibang eh, hindi ma kaya may value naman kasi ang nabal sige the only reason why people are buying or people not buying installation art because they are ignorant about it you can actually buy installation art installation art is now earning and lecturing my time because a big for example a big hotel the hired an artist to put a permanent installation in the lobby we used to have installation artist doing yung window ano ba yung yung before talagang ordinary but now installation artists are being hard to do this thing I've been hired by Sunny for installation for example to put an installation in their showroom so the only reason why because people always think that installation is a pimeral that is true installation is a pimeral because wala ngang bibile saka ang hirap isot lalo na kung malaki like me I do more than one hectare big installation sinong san may itago yung so hindi mo may itago yung but there are many ways to purchase like now I have been hired by a very rich guy may bagong bahay mo gawa ng installation na maliit lang sa bahay niya that's installation and that's permanent in fact I also inaugurated my first permanent installation in the country sa parts nino yakino parts and wildlife we have it there if it's a very big installation documenting it through video about Christo Christo earned not from the installation itself but by the drawing the recording the concept paper so installation artist can earn right now especially because the structure supporting art making what about community art where basically the artist just provides a bit of the canvas and then the rest of the community just fill it in and then that whole thing is collaborative rather than assigned to any one artist well that's good also because that's a community work you cannot buy that but as I've said installation is a pimeral but we have come to the point that installation artist can earn from their work so malapad na yung dinat na malayo na yung inabot ng installation artist hindi yung katulad ng uno na ipimeral lahat ngayon hindi na e you can hire installation artist do an installation work in my garden it will be permanent hindi na yung sculpture karamiyan kasi in sculpture do you think that more education yes yes and maybe you can play a big part of it because you have publication if you have a lot of publication about installation art it will be just like painting or sculpture except that malili et generally malili et pero halimba your arrangement tingnan mo yung mga ginagawa sa mga provincia may way of the cross ang lalaki noon you can do installation as big as that so there's no limit except na relatively bago lang ang installation lalo na sa country natin but it's there, the market is there maybe you can play a big part about it it's a very optimistic way of looking at it past that ancient liberal art insalamat at wala na tayo din sa mentality na art ay liberal at pinamimigay lang although nang yayari pa rin ngayon at saka mabuti rin na pwede ng mabuhay sa installation pero ang aking kinakabahan ay yung mga kabataan ngayon na nayspoil by the art fairs and the auctions and every day full time art pero precarius position nyo'n kasi we have seen even the past artist na na una pa sa atin pag nabenda na yung trabaho nila ulit na lang ng ulit anong impact niyan sa cultura at sa iyong kaluluwa at yung pinaaabut mo sa ating community di ba kailangan huwag naman masyadong busog kasi pag mabusog ka may impacho ka kama yung may conting butom yun nyo yung conting butom a challenge umiigtingi yung iyong art pag may challenge siguro since patapos na tayo and I'll ask this of everybody what's the way forward? papano susulong pa ang Philippine art? siguro yung artis bawat creative person magfocus ka sa iyong creativity anong nasa loob mo everything else will follow at pagbutihin mo araw-araw yung ginagawa mo kailangan talaga na yung ang artis agree ako look inside themselves and they have to always try to express that sincerely and always look for new ways kasi pag nagawa na dati mag-fail na yung artis yung nagawa na ibang artis so dapat may bago silang sinasabi at sincero yung sinasabi nila at lastly, gusto ko lang sabihin na wake up call yung sinasabi kasi nasa publications kami so we will take that upon advisement na we have to feature more of installation art to help in the education process okay, selamat in my case, I still think that maybe there are really works which are not necessarily meant to be bought or to be kept so like anina in question about community art like how do we sell it but then perhaps the idea is yung talaga siya and we just have to find a way to help the artists to produce it yes and that's it and I think it's healthy if there is still a kind of art that cannot be monetizable right? that keeps the idea of art alive kasi if we package it in a way that okay, our work we have to reform the consciousness of the people that anything can be bought that's not good either I think the idea is more of how do we help to sustain the production of works which are really not sellable but should be made and are important to be made so we have to change the idea that we produce works to be sold okay, consumed by the market yes this is where perhaps because a lot of community work or insulation they're always one time big time so how do we make this practice sustainable perhaps may grant may financial support for the artists not necessarily that you earn a lot but enough to be sustainable and are content with that just to be able to live decently and the question is what is the direction way forward sometimes it's good to know it's good not to know where we're going I think that's a way of also making keeping art fresh and new all the time is when we do not know what to expect once you have this formula then that's already part of history or it's end of it so it's good not to know what to expect but just to just to keep do your thing but at the same time keeping one eye open or because because I also think that while we do need isolation it's also not human to keep ourselves closed from the rest of society I agree with Kiri not being just yourself because in my case I do community work every year in fact last year I was adopted by Lillio town as an honorary citizen because every year I go there I teach the young artists at work also in Kalamba every year I do community work for Kalamba and that is very important but basically where we are going defend the artists so artists talagayon so I remember kanina I mentioned ko yung personal advice ko sa mga artists basically I mean fundamentally hindi hanap boy ang art making at ang sikan kung advice sa kanila I don't be afraid to do your thing kung ayong ang gusto mo gawin mo you know that otherwise kung hindi ka matapang nagagawin yung gusto mo inihintay mo lang na mabibinta ba ito or tatanggabin ba ito ng community magustuhan ba ito ng community I think mid-show malabo so hindi natin alam ko anong pupuntaan itong art natin ngayon pero ang importante ay nasa artisyon all the artists kasi tulad ng sinabi nimips ay maging sincero sa kanilang ginagawa at gagawa every day I think may mapupuntahan talaga tayo so it's depend on the artist so don't be afraid to do your thing you know there you go we've had a very interesting and provocative exchange with our guests today and I'd like to thank them for the time and their contributions Madaming salamat po sa ating ko kasama yung araw si Jun Yi si Mebs Kahipa Ndaya and si Jack Jutiko Rami salamat po at hanggang sa susurod na kabanata ng kultura, singing, at iba pa dito sa TV UTV