 All right, it is 6.02. Why don't we go ahead and get started? I just want to welcome everyone to our event tonight, Youth Gone Wild, the intersection of music, art, and rebellion. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling a little rebellious these days after being locked up at home for so long. My name is Taryn Edwards and I am one of the librarians at the Mechanics Institute of San Francisco. And for those of you who are unfamiliar with the mechanics, we are an independent membership organization that houses a wonderful library. You can see it right behind me. It is the oldest designed to serve the general public here in California and possibly the far west, not just serving those who wield a wrench for their day to day job. We also are a cultural event center, and so host lots of events like this every day, in person and virtual. And we are a world renowned chess club that is the oldest in the United States. So I encourage you to consider becoming a member with us. It's only $120 a year, and with that you help support our contribution to the literary and cultural world of the San Francisco Bay Area. And it certainly is whirling these days as things start to reopen. So our event tonight will be moderated by Liam O'Donohue who is the host and producer of the KPFA radio program and podcast East Bay yesterday. Our other speakers tonight include Samantha Durbin, who is a multi-talented writer from Oakland, California, now living in the wonderful town of Goleta. And she publishes all over the place, but recently published her debut book called Raver Girl, coming of age in the 90s, which chronicles from her perspective the San Francisco Bay Area raver scene in the 90s. We also have with us Jose Vadi, who is an award winning essayist, poet, and playwright. He is the author of Interstate Essays from California, and his work has also appeared all over the literary magazine scene. And last but not least, we have Mark Bishka. He joins us. He is the publisher and arts editor of the local news site 48 Hills, and also the legacy alternative weekly paper, The Bay Guardian. In addition to being a writer, he also co-owns the stud bar here in the city. So I'm going to put people, our speakers links in the chat space. So if you want, you can copy and paste those into your browser to look at later. And also information about how to buy their books, if you should want to. And I also want to encourage all of our guests to use our chat space. If you have any questions, we will get to them at the end of the event. And we are recording this event so you can enjoy it again in a couple of days once I edit it and put it on YouTube. All right, I want to thank you all for coming. Thank all of our speakers for coming and take it away, Liam. And I would like to thank you for hosting this event and helping to put together this awesome panel of so many great local writers. So I really appreciate it. And just kicking things off, thinking about tonight's theme of youthful rebellion, I was thinking back on my own political trajectory because I was raised by a pretty conservative Irish Catholic dad. My family wasn't that political, but from a pretty early age, I definitely gravitated towards kind of anti-authoritarian. I guess you could call it broadly. And I know that the main thing that sent me in that direction from a pretty early age, like middle school, was music. I used to stay up watching shows like Yo MTV Raps in the 80s, late 80s. And I specifically remember one of the first things that kind of jolted me out of my comfortable suburban white existence was seeing the video for public enemies 911 as a joke. Because not only did it make me aware that these public disparities that I had no idea about existed, but I mean, the beat was just so hard. Like the music, it got me so curious about what they were all about. So I immediately went out and bought the tape fear of a black planet. It's one of the first tapes I ever bought. And that like sent me down a whole path of learning about like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers and all these things I'd never heard about in school. I mean, there was no Black Panthers chapter in my textbook. Probably because I wasn't reading this textbook yet, which we'll get to in a minute. This is Mark's folk into the streets, which I'll be asking him about shortly. But you know, from Yo MTV Raps, I got into punk, started going to punk shows, underground punk shows in Chicago in the back of the club. I mean, I'm using the term club loosely. It was an old bowling alley, you know, that used to host bands in the corner for like $5 a pop and, you know, like let 15 year old string. But you know, there were there was always people selling like Noam Chomsky books and Howard Zen and zines about act up and the riot girl movement. Of course, my neighbors are doing construction right now. So I'm just going to close that window. But the point is that, you know, it was music, radical music that got me sort of excited about politics. And I'm still excited about politics to this day and rebellion to this day. So when I was approached about moderating a panel for these three authors, I immediately said yes. But at first, I was kind of struggling how to frame the event because all their books are so different. But then I realized that one thing that unites these three books, I'll hold up the other two right now to give everyone a little bit of love is the fact that they all really do deal with this theme of kind of youthful rebellion. And I think that's really fertile territory for discussion, because it's really often dismissed as just, you know, naivete of the young or kids being kids, things like that. And I think that it's worth having an important or, you know, a serious discussion about because at this moment in American history, there's obviously a lot on the line. And we are going to depend on the young, you know, young adults, the kids of this generation to help fix some of the things that people in our generations and the generations above us messed up so badly. So yeah, what I'm getting at basically is I think that we can, I think history is important. That's my focus. I think that there's a lot that young people can learn from looking back at history. So hopefully, you know, people in my generation, sort of older millennials, Gen X type folks can help sort of share, you know, pass on that legacy to the kids of today. But also, I hope there's some younger people who are tuning in today or will watch us on YouTube later, that can type in questions that we can respond to, because I think there's a lot that people in my generation, you know, people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and older can learn from the kids too. I mean, I see a lot of inspiration in the younger generations kind of figuring out some things at a young age that I didn't get to understand until I was much, much older. So hopefully we can get into that as well. But I've rambled on long enough now, I'll start in with some of the Q&A. And I want to start with Mark, because Mark, you're the only person who I haven't interviewed yet. I did an interview with Samantha on my podcast. And also I talked to Jose live at Green Apple Books a couple months ago. And I'll put links into the chat of those conversations, just so anyone who missed those can check it out. And I'm also throwing in a link to a, I didn't interview Mark, I didn't interview you yet, Mark, but I did listen to an interview with you recently that I absolutely loved. You had a great conversation with Vivian from the Rave to the Grave podcast, one of my favorite podcasts, where you share these just absolutely astonishing tales of throwing underground raves in Detroit in the 1990s. So again, I just put that in the chat, hopefully people can check that out, because it's a fascinating conversation. But switching gears, like I said before, like I know you as a music guy, a rave guy, music nightlife writer. So I was a little surprised when I saw that you were coming out with this book into the streets, a young person's visual history of protest in the United States. Because that just felt like a little bit different than, you know, what I see you writing and tweeting about for the most part. So just starting things off, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what made you want to take on such a massive topic as the history of protest in the United States, and why specifically you wanted to aim that topic at young people? Certainly. Thank you so much for that great question. It's a, you know, I've been going to parties as a young person and a dancer and a raver since I was 14 in Detroit, and growing up in kind of a depressed industrial atmosphere like Detroit, which mixed white working class kids with black working class kids, you know, and kind of mixed the margins together. Every time we danced together was almost a political statement. So from the very beginning of my nightlife going out, I, I really, it was really intertwined with politics, which kind of guided my career to become a publisher of like an alternative weekly with such a huge history of from the from the early 1960s through the 2000s of bolstering these kind of protest movements and everything like that. And, you know, I had been a part of ACT UP in the 1990s, which was the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power. I was in the Detroit part, which was a little anemic compared to what was going on in San Francisco and New York. But I still felt that I was politically active then. And as a person of Arab American descent, I was also going to college during the Gulf War. And so I became kind of activated towards that too. It was a very interesting time then. So my activation into these things paralleled my rise in nightlife and going out and partying all night. So partying all night, protesting all day was the perfect thing I wanted to do. And, you know, when I got a little bit older, I look back and wanted to share some experiences. And I realized no one had written a history of protest for young people, you know, that wasn't dry, or, you know, that wasn't like just a history book. And I wanted to write something that was visually explosive, because youth culture, visuals, images, it's such a huge part of protest, you know, from the very beginning of this country and before it. And so I wanted it to kind of pop I want something that would be fun, express my own history and underground partying, etc. Through this kind of kind of catchy explosion of history. And while I was writing the book, I discovered that there were just tremendous pockets of youth culture that was driving the development of the kind of awakening in this country to racial injustice. You know, two different, you know, wonderful evolutions we've had in gender politics, the incredible turnout of young people against gun violence that we've seen Black Lives Matter, which was driven by young people in youth culture. And so I found that kind of mixed all my things together. So I wanted to write a history and I hope I did it justice for that. Unfortunately, the book came out right before the January 6th insurrection. So I'm hoping that we'll have a third edition that takes that into into account. And I don't know exactly how I'm going to write about that particular protest. But but yeah, that's basically the story of the book. Well, speaking of follow ups to the book, this is a visual history. But you know, as a music writer, you do I know that you know a lot about protest music. So I was wondering if maybe that could be something like a good company or supplement the next edition, like a history of protest music, because so often, like you said, it's like these youth movements, these student movements, they're kind of at the forefront, the vanguard of these various social struggles. And a lot of time, I mean, there's like an anthem that goes along with those different movements, right? Totally, exactly. You know, that was one of the great things about writing about the Black Lives Matter movement and Ferguson before that, which had kind of started the original hashtag was it was such an explosive, such a flowering of the hip hop community and really brought it to the fore. I was just thinking. The other day, I was fortunate to be reporting on the Arab Spring in Tunisia while it was happening. And one of the most amazing things of that protest was the proliferation of hip hop. And the United States has really set this template for protest music through hip hop. And by extension, through techno, after hours raves, extra legal parties, house parties that really capture the youthful spirit of rebellion as well as soundtrack actual events that are happening in the world. Absolutely. And for anyone who is not familiar, I will say there's a ton of great rap coming out of Morocco of all places right now. So like the Middle Eastern hip hop world is like, I think, honestly, one of the most exciting places musically in the world right now. So we were talking about raves a second ago, which is right up Samantha's alley with her book Raver Girl. And Sam, Mark was just talking to me to go about sort of how going to underground parties is a teenager sort of politicized him and how they were a political act. I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit too. Do you feel like being a party kid, which some people might just see as like hedonistic or escapist, did that influence your political identity or the trajectory of how you kind of approach politics in the world in any way? Well, let's see. So I was born and raised in Oakland. And so I kind of had these very typical, aggressive, Bay Area parents. And so I was always raised, you know, with my mom was like a feminist. And she raised me as a feminist. My dad was an early tech guy and who had moved out of his house at 16, figured out his own way, dropped out of UC Berkeley, did acid with Alice Lee Stanley. So I was kind of already set up to be this like open minded kid. And so when I found Rave Culture, I was already also really into music that was probably the main draw because I had already kind of heard this like techno music and, you know, there were a few things, you know, that really brought me into the culture. But I was also listening to Guns N' Roses when I was 10 years old. And just, you know, I think being exposed to, yeah, MTV, right? MTV exposed us to a lot that we know as youngins, like, you know, there's so many exposure now, I feel like, probably too much exposure. And so MTV was really the holy grail of, you know, discovering these new music and then these new lives, you know, these new cultures. And, you know, so even though I was an early Guns N' Roses fan, I didn't become this like rocker girl. I became a raver. And I just think of really being in the Bay Area as a raver, like it just solidified my love for, you know, just kind of being being open minded and being accepting. And, you know, kind of like what Mark was saying, like once you're out on the dance floor, everyone is your friend. Everyone is equal. We're all there, like for the same purpose. And it's just this unity that I did not feel at high school. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that first wave of raves had a really utopian outlook as well. Yeah, it was like mid, yeah, like mid 90s. You know, there were kids from all over the Bay Area, like all different socio-economic backgrounds. And I'd been exposed to a lot of that in Oakland, but I also was privileged as I grew up in the Oakland Hills, went to private schools. So for me, it exposed me, I would say more to that socio-economic, the differences there and really opened my mind to my privilege. And, you know, and so, you know, being like, what, you didn't, you know, you didn't grow up going to the nutcracker in San Francisco. So I think for me, in terms of, you know, kind of a political outlook, it was more that it was more, you know, kind of me realizing that I'd come from a privileged place and then opening my eyes to these friends who were not raised with, you know, so many opportunities, but we were all equal and we all had fun and we all got along. And then there was the element of, of course, experimenting with psychedelics. Right. Actually, I wanted to ask about that because you mentioned as a minute ago that your dad was kind of part of that first sixties generation that was, you know, taking acid. And I think a lot of the, you know, popular mythology around acid then that was being promulgated by people like Timothy Leary was that this is a revolutionary drug. If everyone takes it, the world will be a better place, you know, there's the potential for real massive social shift to be fueled by LSD and mushrooms, for example. That didn't exactly happen as we all know now tripping having a great trip doesn't necessarily make you a better person or more empathetic or more progressive or anything like that. But now we're kind of going through a renaissance of psychedelic culture right now. And I know you've been interested in that. And so, you know, as someone who's kind of got their finger on the pulse of that world a little bit, do you feel like there's anything we can learn from like your dad's generation or our generation of ravers that was just, you know, doing ungodly amounts of drugs in the 90s that like maybe like, okay, now it's like, I think people are approaching these drugs a little bit more seriously, a little bit more intentionally. Do you think that this psychedelic renaissance is more, do you feel like there's the potential for political change with it or is this more about like kind of individualistic self healing and sort of that side of the equation? I mean, if we look at cannabis, right, and what's happened with cannabis since the 90s, which is when I started consuming and, you know, it was very much illegal. It was like my dad, one of my dad's biggest fears that I was going to get caught, you know, carrying weed because he knew that me and my brother smoked weed. So if you look at how that has changed culture and industry, you know, I think that a lot of people, you know, wonder like, is that kind of like setting, you know, setting the tone for these psychedelics now psychedelics are very different, you know, I think they need a lot more guidance and they do need more introspection and that's why it has, it is a long time coming and there's all these clinical trials and Michael Bolin actually just released a documentary about his book, How You Can Change Your Mind. And so I think there's getting, there's all this information that's being revealed and it's nothing new for people who have been in this world or experimented or been interested in this world. But I think the world can definitely benefit from the medicinal elements of psychedelics, you know, I think versus like alcohol, right, something that's been around for so long too and has, you know, created, you know, destruction for a lot of people and are there medicinal qualities to alcohol? Like, you know, so I think, yeah, it's a really exciting time. I have been following it, you know, through publications like Double Blind and, you know, kind of on the sidelines. And I think it creates a shift individually for a lot of people and the teachings now are about safety and harm reduction. And that was missing from my experience. I was missing from my dad's experience. We survived. And so for these, you know, upcoming generations, I'm really excited for them. You know, I'm a mom. And so I just think it'll be approached differently. There'll be a lot more information, good information this time. But then, you know, that's been the whole question about, you know, like big pharma coming in, right? And like, that's what makes me nervous, because I'm like, you can't create a synthetic, I mean, you can, they are creating synthetic psilocybin and stuff like that. But it's just like, oh, just leave it alone. Just like, let's let the plant, like, let's like get to the plant finally, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to, I mean, there's just so much to think about there, but I want to make sure I get some questions in here for Jose, because I haven't checked them with you yet. And it's been a little while since we talked. So since I've sort of been asking everyone about how they're kind of, you know, the passions of their youth, music, raving, et cetera, influenced their kind of political trajectory. I want to talk to you a little bit about skateboarding, which is something you cover quite a bit in this book. You started skating at a young age, you're still doing it now. How did being a skater influence the way that you sort of viewed the world? And like, what did you learn then that you still kind of carry with you today, from that perspective? Yeah, I mean, being a skater, skateboarding is, you know, like becoming a raver or becoming an activist is this entire world, you know what I mean? But I think similar to raving, there is a different relationship with physical space that's very interesting to explore when you're like a skateboarder in terms of cities or even in more vacant areas, you know, like how skateboarding, street skateboarding in particular, like how that self generates and how it creates like a reciprocal relationship with you and a city. So I started skateboarding in 1996. So we're kind of dovetailing from that post-Nirvana major label investment, like Veruca Salt on the radio, you know what I mean? Things are kind of weird. And then we're getting into like, and like the movie goes about to kind of come out and try and interpret rave culture, right? You know, the WB, the wee black, instead of wet black, you know, we're kind of in this like transition model in pop culture. So skateboarding was really weird because they represented all these things and it was on the rise to Tony Hawk Pro Skater and this whole new big invitation to more communities of color, frankly, more diverse socioeconomic backgrounds because now it's in your comfort. So now in 2022 and seeing trans center brands, queer center brands like in skateboarding, seeing women and men in the Olympics, which is an entire another conversation, you know, the concept of rebellion and skateboarding is really interesting now because it's on the podium, right? But it took complete illegality to get there, you know, like, which is really interesting to think about. But I love the Venn diagrams with like active. It took complete illegality to get to a lot of good places. So skateboarding is not alone there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you know, one thing I was wondering about is, you know, like I said, you're still skating, you know, you're probably out there skating and seeing kids who are in their teens and their 20s, etc. And like when we were kids skating, I skated too as a teenager, you would like never see someone in their 30s or 40s or 50s even skating and now it's not that uncommon. So I am kind of curious about that sort of intergenerational conversation in the skateboarding world. Like when you're out and you see, you know, people who are like 15 or 20, are they interested in sort of hearing what the older generations of skaters have to say? Or they kind of just like, you know, you do your thing, you know, old man, like we're going to be over here doing our thing. It really depends on the where, you know, I mean, because certain skate parks have certain cultures where that's more, I think kind of encouraged. And there's a lot of street skate spots that are like designed to be United Nations, you know, where all generations, all generations, all flexibility, they're welcomed. Rock Ridge Park Station in Oakland is the example of that, I think, you know, in terms of California right now, where you know, you do have someone who was pro in the 80s hanging out with someone who just got their first board 20 minutes ago and they're chatting and they're chopping it up and not in a top down way, you know, just in the how does it feel? So it really depends, you know, I just moved out to Sacramento, it's been about a year now. And seeing the scene here, which has to respond so much to climate, you know, all the old barnies and all the little kids are just hiding in the shade all the time, just like stay cool. There's a lot of different like moments that bring people together. And skateboarding in general, it's like, you know, I think one thing that can be older generation is trying to kind of encourage the young people about is like, if you're like, don't skate with AirPods on and a crowded skate park, you know, they mean like, they hello to people, you know, they mean like be present in this physical space, you could be on your phone anywhere kind of thing. So I'd be, you know, that kind of encouragement from the older heads, which is cool. But I think in general, there's a lot more zines and publications now too that are doing this like YouTube channels, like Jeff Grosso's love letters to skateboarding, I think educated a lot of people. So there's a lot more digital resources for kids to go and dig in the crate and figure out why their favorite pro is doing what they're doing in a sense, like what's the historical context. Yeah, very cool, very cool. Well, speaking of historical context, Mark, in your book, it's a great book, but it's like 150 pages and you're trying to cover like the entire history of protests, which we could cover, you know, thousands and thousands of pages. So one of the things I'm wondering about is how you sort of narrowed it down to the, you know, 30, 35 or so different specific protests and social movements that you covered. And related to that, like, you know, obviously we're trying to aim it at, you know, ideas that would be relevant for the youth since this is that's your, you know, audience for this book. But I'm wondering which chapters from talking to your readers have resonated the most with the kids who are picking it up and checking it out. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was a very difficult choice, especially because there isn't something like this out there to model it on. So I spent a lot of time in the library looking through things. And I think I was attracted to, but personally, I was attracted to the story of protest in this country is the story of introducing diversity, you know, kind of the struggle against, you know, the struggle to not have straight white rich males dominate the conversation in politics. So telling the story was just a wonderful way to, you know, as Jose said, the integrate so many different sexualities, races, ethnicities, points of view. So really, I zeroed into each step that it took from Native American protests, which have happened for, you know, almost 500, 600 years now through to, you know, write up to Black Lives Matter happening. And so I wanted to make sure that I, that I hit all those notes of diversity that were happening. Personally, the things that I resonated with were kind of what Samantha and Jose have talked about where you make your own space, you make these autonomous zones, you know, in protests, when they are able to carve out this, this kind of space of possibility, you know, it just resonates. And it's kind of almost like each protest past that glowing balls in the next protest to continue with it, you know, which, which is really neat. You know, that reminds me, like when I first moved to the Bay Lake 20 years ago, reclaim the streets parties were a big thing. And for people who don't remember those, it's kind of almost feels quaint now, because like the idea was that this is like way before park lids, there wasn't even that many bike lanes. And it was, I think people trying to like be very vocal about like actually taking back public space and having doing something fun and spontaneous and joyful there. And even I helped organize a couple in San Francisco, and they weren't always just about like, Hey, we're going to sort of, you know, turn tables in the middle of the street and have a dance party. But sometimes it would be like, we're going to protest like the muni fair hike by like having a street party and like people come out and dance, but then we'll also be passing up flyers. So like, I love that idea of like, you know, as we've been, you know, coming back to this theme again and again in this conversation of like having fun and taking up space can also be like a great way to like meet people and spread ideas. And especially before social media, when you couldn't just like post something on Twitter or TikTok and expect everyone to find it. Totally. And I think that that's a really good point because a lot of people think that a protest has only one purpose and that's to change it. And if the protest doesn't immediately change the world, then it's a failed protest somehow. But protests are all about getting out and meeting with people, building networks, exercise, getting out in the fresh air, you know, seeing people face to face, passing on those things, even internet protests where you, you know, you just get to connect with other people in a human way. And, you know, it's funny that you mentioned like the reclaiming the streets. It's so interesting as Samantha was talking about kind of what happened with cannabis and how, you know, legalization has kind of tamed it and made it into this big business kind of thing. I look at those original protests and things like critical mass where it was like actually taking over the streets or, you know, a number of street protests throughout history that have blocked streets, block bridges and everything. And now that's kind of been not gentrified but normalized into slow streets into what's happening with JFK Drive here where families are going out and, you know, it's recreation. So it's really interesting to see the evolution of how something is so radical. And then a few years later, it becomes a family activity, which protests also are, you know, so. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I mean, like, you know, Jose was talking about with skateboarding being in the Olympics, there's sort of, you know, whole conversations we had about our sort of sub legal passions being kind of coopted or embraced by the mainstream, you know, there's good way like, you know, and like Sam was saying with psychedelics, like, there's certainly benefits to these things becoming part of mainstream culture. But, you know, as you put it, they can, you know, taming them is it can kind of smooth off those edges that make them so exciting and relevant and politically challenging as well. Right. Because I mean, look what happened with the parklets. At first it was like, cool, people can actually eat outside. And then it's like, oh, but it's basically privatizing public sidewalks and like making them unsafe spaces for maybe homeless people who used to live on those sidewalks. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. There's those. There's definitely those considerations of how protests becomes legitimized. You know, going back, of course, here to the 60s, as you were talking with Samantha about and her father, where what was once kind of wild and out on the streets is now sold to us in many iterations after iterations after iterations. I mean, I think we're on the 30th time that flares have come back, you know, right now. And one of the things I loved about Samantha's book so much was her detailing of the fashion of rave. Yes. And how much that put into it. And that just like, you know, was was a pristine Madeleine and taking me right back. Oh my gosh. Yes. And the Samantha, your book was also just so like no, like holding no punches, you're really upfront about sort of the ups and downs of your life as a raver girl. And, you know, you, I think you're the only person on this panel who has a child who's a parent right now. And so I'm wondering, as you raise, you know, your son, you know, how are you going to sort of balance out that, you know, wanting him to kind of have the sort of exciting rebellious experiences that you had when you were a young person growing up versus the sort of parental instinct to not want anything bad to happen to your kid. Because like, I'm thinking back to my youth, like, you know, running from cops, doing acid, all this stuff, it was like fun and formative. But like people got hurt, people got in trouble. And like, if I was a dad, I don't know if I'd want my kids like out doing, you know, raising the hell, raising that kind of hell that, you know, we used to do in my day. I know. Yeah. Yeah, I get asked this a lot. And, you know, and I think about it a lot. And, you know, I think about, you know, right now he's four and a half. And so I don't have to worry about society and bad influences and social media and, you know, everything that's going to come. But I also, that time for me, it was really formative and just like my attitude. And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty lack when it comes to things. And, you know, I have my morals. But I'm pretty open minded, like, you know, creatively too. You know, I think for me, I really learned what a creative person I was, you know, that kind of being a teenager and hormonal and self-conscious had really like a press, my creativity. And when I entered the world of rave, I was able to be my, like, kooky creative self. And then, of course, you know, take these substances that actually really did open my doors of perception. And I attribute, you know, this kind of really complex creativity that I can have. I think some of it is, you know, from doing psychedelics at the young age. And so, you know, the jury's still out on his personality type. I mean, he's four and a half. He's really smart and really kooky, as a lot of four-year-olds are. I do secretly hope he's not going to be in that job. So, you know, we don't really have to deal with it, but who knows. But if he is, you know, I feel like I have a wealth of knowledge and I will be, you know, very open with him and just makes, and like I said, there's all these resources now. I mean, there's actually, you know, dance safe and there's people at, you know, the festivals and the raves now who are providing so much more first aid and safety and, you know, compared to the underground, you know, the dangerous, you know, places and spaces that you've been raised in. By the time your son is like of partying age, like micro doses might be available at Walgreens, the way things are going. I know, like it may not even be like a big deal, you know. Move the kombucha, it's like the you got your psilocybin kombucha, you know, definitely get some DMT at the drive-through on the way to the spa. No, it's really, that's why, that's why I've been, I mean, that's not why I've been following what's going on in, you know, in the psychedelic world. But, you know, I, it's my own personal, you know, experience and curiosity still. But yeah, I mean, if you told me in the 90s that cannabis was going to be, you know, I secretly hope, I think we all hoped it would, you know, and we knew we were like, it can be so therapeutic and it can be, you know, I was medic self-medicating as if, you know, didn't even really realize it. And so it was really exciting when all that unfolded, you know, over the last 10 years. So it'll be exciting to see what unfolds with this. And I think it certainly, you know, can help so many people who would not even consider it before. And, you know, with mental health crisis and, you know, there's just so many other people who could benefit from it. Absolutely. Well, you know, my specialty is Oakland history, East Bay history. So you know, I got to get one Oakland history related question here. And this next one is coming to you, Jose. So I've told you this before, but the essay in your book that I resonated most with was your chapter about living in downtown Oakland in your early 20s, which was kind of like right before the giant kind of post-grace recession tech bubble that really changed everything. I mean, so much more development, gentrification, displacement, rising rents, etc. So your book came out about a year ago or so. You've had a chance to talk to a lot of readers about it. And I'm wondering what kind of feedback you've been getting about that topic specifically. Like, are you hearing from kind of, you know, I'm sure that you're hearing from like, you know, old heads like me who are like, oh yeah, downtown Oakland, it's not what it used to be. But also I'm curious if you're hearing from any younger people who are like, wow, like you could afford an apartment in Oakland for $400 a month, you know, right out of college, which seems like magical now, but back then was a lot of money. So yeah, I'm kind of wondering like how younger people are responding to that chapter and the rest of your book as well. For sure. Yeah, I think, well, there's a couple of different reactions. Definitely the kind of price of living life, like the rent price alone, I think is kind of jarring for folks both like sharing a spot with two other people, the people that we took over the apartment from just finessed an amazing deal. But regardless, like it's just the type of downtown Oakland that was going down, you know, at that time was, I don't want to say volatile, but there's a lot of things happening all at once that we're leading up to kind of things that you thought occupy and beyond. But I think a lot of people, especially like folks in these bay have kind of responded with like a lot of love to that piece. And a lot of like, even if they weren't old enough to experience that they were like, Oh yeah, my uncle or my cousin or someone I know used to live downtown or live in the area or says that X, Y or Z is very different. A lot of people, a lot of particularly young person at one of the readings said that they didn't know that the 14th Street have been like renovated. Like they kind of thought the amphitheater and everything that's there. Like usually like little things like that are interesting. But then there's all the people that are like, Oh yeah, like I was there. Like I remember when that bar owner like pulled out a, you know, shotgun, like I remember all these things, you know. Oh shotgun, Phil. Yeah. Yeah, because you were with the Oscar Grant riots and protests as well, which was like a really pivotal moment. And in downtown, like you said, kind of set the stage for Occupy, I think in a lot of the Black Lives Matter movement and things that came after. So such an important era. And it's a lot of like parallel kind of histories being told to like the Alice Street film, you know, like about the 14th and Alice, like so there's a lot of things that like the interstate, I think is kind of also like trying to be in conversation with, you know, I mean, like, including your word Lee and frankly, and like, you know, like just trying to be aware of things. And also like things have kind of changed, like the Chauncey Bailey, you know, plaque that I mentioned not being there, the book now is there, like, you know, in the wake of this new development. So like, there's always kind of active history. But I think a lot of people have responded positively to it. When I read the work, a lot of people immediately tell me like their relationship to California. I've noticed the first time I ever read anything from this book with that Wolfman books on, you know, and like, how does that play so much? Yeah, the wood, I can hear the wood creaking floor, you know, the, you know, like just immediately people were just like, oh, yeah, I did, you know, I'm from Nevada City, I'm from, you know, like Imperial Valley. So like immediately people tell me the relationship with California, which is really interesting or their relationship with Oakland, you know. So I found that even with people that have just moved to Oakland, or it's the Bay Area, they kind of come with it like with an amount of respect, like they're kind of like, I know that there's something here before me and this helps me understand what was here before me. So like knowing that there's people that are already like curious enough to know that they're the before is really encouraging. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I could like go around asking you guys questions all day. I do have more questions, but I want to make sure that we have some time for the audience to ask some questions too. So I don't know if we can take one from the audience chat now, if anyone has a question. And if we don't, you know, I've got like I said, I've got plenty in my arsenal, but I want to give the people a chance to make their voice heard as well. Yeah, I haven't, no one has posted anything in the chat space yet. Well, I can, I can ask one unless you were going to say something. No, I was just going to say that I'll, you know, please, making the service announcement, please put in the chat if you have any questions. And we have such a small group, you can ask your question directly, I can turn your mic on if you want, or I can read your question in the chat space, it's up to you. But if you have any questions, just let me know. And in the meantime, Liam, why don't you go ahead and ask one of your backup questions. Well, so one of the things I was wondering about, because I do want to make sure that we have some kind of like, you know, inspirational or uplifting moments this conversation. So I do feel like it's really easy these days to get down when when you're looking around at all the various apocalyptic scenarios kind of looming on the horizon from, you know, lack of reproductive rights in a lot of this country to, you know, climate change, et cetera. So I'm wondering, you know, if you guys can talk a little bit about what is giving you hope right now in terms of what you're seeing in youth culture, like what's bubbling up from the Zoomers from Gen Z, that's making you think that, like, they're going to have a positive impact on on some of these crises. I mean, obviously, I'll jump in, obviously, you know, Internet activism has evolved, you know, and for me, seeing how fast knowledge travels and how fast reactions are, and how, you know, how quickly words gets out via TikToks, you know, via group chats, et cetera, that kind of organizing, which is also reflected in what's happening in a lot of workplaces now where there's, you know, unionization drives going on. There are people willing to pour into the streets, as we saw when Roe was reversed, especially young women, taking charge of these kind of things that, you know, seeing people both on the streets and sharing this knowledge in this new technology. With humor, I mean, people are funny, people hold up the big part of it is holding up a funny sign. People love to do that, you know, and so that I just love seeing that still happening. All right, that's a question. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Samantha. Do you have a rebuttal? Yeah, I don't have a rebuttal. I have an addition. Yeah, I was recently reading about a really young climate change advocate, and that's one of, like, my biggest concerns as an adult, and especially like having a child, and so, yeah, so I was really reassuring to hear, and she's like, I think she's like 19 or 20, and she's a huge social media following. And so I think, you know, as much as I roll my eyes at social media, when I see young people using it for good, I am so relieved. I'm like, okay, there is hope, you know, and some people are using this for good. And, you know, I, yeah, so climate change, I'm feeling, you know, well, it's hard because it's like very much real and happening. But I, you know, and then just like, I'm kind of obsessed with coming of age and high school shows and movies, I'm always watching them. And yeah, and just even, and I know it's television, but these topics that are coming up for teenagers, I'm like, wow, okay, like they're, you know, even as teenagers, they're aware of these things that like I was so not, you know, like I was a rave girl, I was still in my bubble, and it's kind of like, I don't know, I'm sure there's still kids who are in their bubbles, but it's like, how can you not be aware of all these things that have happened, you know, in the past five years, and even during the pandemic. And just so much more like, so much more realized about, you know, politics and, you know, gender equality and like all of that, it was like kind of like I was soaking it in when I was a teenager, but like, you know, we weren't really talking about it. And it wasn't a part of the conversation. I feel like it's very much part of the conversations I'm, you know, witnessing and if I ever like when I, you know, when I'm out in public and I see youngins, I like always eavesdrop. I'm like totally that that person. I'm like, what are they talking about? So, yeah, they are talking about, you know, some important things, so. All right, so it looks like a question just popped up in the chat about someone requesting K Davis requesting a discussion about the current state of online communities for the local rave dance organizing culture. It seems like there's no obvious success successors to SF raves, tribe, ground score, etc. Facebook, Twitter seem like hill replacements for the vibrant forms the past. Mark, that kind of feels like a question that you might be ready to answer. I mean, you'd still go to an astonishing amount of parties. I'm always like, when I, when I see, you know, follow you on social media, and I'm like, wow, how do you keep up with all this? It's impressive. So how are you finding out about things? What are the online communities where people can sort of plug in? Sure. I mean, I think what is happening right now is we're going through the great Facebook collapse where everybody's promotion for events went to Facebook in the mid, you know, 2010s. And then as people got disillusioned over the past four years and left Facebook, they gradually it all fell apart. One of the most touching things that happened to me last year in the darkest time of the pandemic was someone actually handed me a flyer to a party, which I hadn't seen and I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. You know, I hadn't seen it in a while. And, you know, I think this return to physical media is happening as well as, you know, a lot of there is a return happening right now of after hours and extra legal parties, which I'm amazed at and find very helpful. Some of them are a little, you know, not quite my scene, but a lot of them are just really, you know, there's a lot of trans rave parties that are happening and very nurturing of that scene, you know, a lot of gender nonconforming kind of raves that are happening, which I love and DJs coming forth. And I think they've built their own, you know, networks of communication, which is wonderful via group chats, via less public facing things. So the point, I mean, I guess the point of what I'm saying is you kind of need to know somebody now. And if you want to make a flyer, that's the most wonderful thing in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely. What about in the skateboarding world Jose, is there like a lot of, like, are there part of their forums still where people kind of are like organizing and getting into stuff? Or is it more sort of like private group chats? Because like, I know in San Francisco, for example, they organize that crazy hillbomb in front of Dolores Park every year. And that's, there's no flyers for that that the public is getting. So how are kind of people, you know, collectively organizing things in the skateboarding world these days? Yeah, and the Dolores hillbomb is a great example of something that was started by a local crew that then gets abandoned by that crew and then gets taken by whoever wants it. You know, I mean, so it's kind of like that that's official shit show at this point. So it's like. So it sort of went down the Santa con trajectory then? Yeah, it kind of got brofied. Yeah, actually that's the perfect example. Yeah, basically. And so, you know, but, you know, to Mark's point earlier about social media and its role, to a previous question, I think the answer to this one is that like, a lot of people still show up in real time, like the effects are popping, book fairs are popping, like analog presentations meet, you know, with like events is still like a big thing, you know, and maybe that's the kind of just the power of the forms themselves, but within skateboarding, you know, social media has been that mechanism that has propelled things like unity skateboarding, which is, you know, we're going to show up at this spot, we're going to make it a queer safe in inclusive space for them from this time to this time, show up, get free boards and, you know, whatever, that's now like, an official company that's part of like the industry proper, you know, I mean, that sell boards, you can get at your local skate shop. So social media is a huge mechanism for that. The ironic thing about skateboarding is that skateboarding is all driven by brands. So it's almost like consumerism on steroids, like unity and their skateboards are brands that center it around trans skateboarding. So when you open up a skate magazine, you're following brands and telling you what is skateboarding, like, you know, this, this trick down this hill. And now with social media, skaters are kind of taking back the reins from the bigger companies and saying like, no, this is what skateboarding is, we do it like this in these spaces. Another big thing that's happening is that skaters are taking the initiative to not only build and design skate parks in their communities, which have been going on since the 90s, when there was like a dearth of skate parks. But now they're doing it in these really kind of inclusive community space ways where it's like, say there's two tennis courts that are abandoned, otherwise abandoned, just give us this corner and allow us to create this space that you can fit on maybe at night, or maybe early in the morning when people aren't there. But when the skaters are there, we can use it as our own thing. So it's kind of like, you know, an equal playing field between giving the traditional sports, their big outdoor playing fields, and something that we will actually skate and not another big blocky kind of traditional skate park that now you're seeing in the Olympics, right? So skating is like consistently using digital to like, bring people together in real time in the real space and still have that face to face. So, and even when you show up to the spot today, you still see flyers, you know, posted to the pillars and stuff like that. So yeah, that's awesome. You know, cool. One thing that I was wondering about for all you guys is, you know, when you grow up in these kind of like youth subcultures like raving or punk or skateboarding, you know, I'm sure we all have a lot of friends who kind of like dropped out, grew out of the scene, right? Started adulting or whatever the lingo is these days. But obviously, we're all holding on to, you know, some things that we've been excited about since we were teenagers. And I don't think that's a bad thing. You know, you can go overboard, you know, in terms of like holding on to your your teenage years. But I think there's a way, a good way of finding that balance. And, you know, still holding on to some of the things you've been passionate about your entire life. So I'm wondering if you can all talk a little bit about like, what keeps you going, like what makes you still want to skate or, you know, dance or listen to, you know, techno or like whatever, like the thing is that sort of you're still excited about the these aspects that shaped you as a youth, like how are they still affecting you as an adult? What makes you, you know, want to hold on to that so strongly? I think just on this on the skateboarding tip really quick, I think it's the desire to kind of be good at something that you're obsessed at, like, but it's also like to get older just finding your lane, you know, you're not going to jump down 10 stairs without taking out some serious days off of work. You know what I mean? So life insurance policy. Yeah, I would take my own death to get the hospital going clear. You know, you just have to find your lane, really. But I think it's the impact of these things that I think about constantly. Like, why is it that all these, but I think these, these different cultures that resonated with us are all like microcosmic of all these other, they howl so many different worlds, you know, like art, music, as in clothing style, the way you talk to your friends. So, you know, how, how can't you be impacted by this world that like I think about Samantha's book, you know, when she takes people to the Raven Santa Cruz and some of them have been before and some of them, most of them hadn't. So it's like opening the door like out, you know, to the Wonderland, you know, like, um, you just got to find your lane and how to get older with that inspiration kind of alongside you. Yeah, I, I do not attend RAVE anymore. Mainly because I have a four and a half year old son. However, I did recently go before I moved a couple months ago. There was a Sunset crew who used to throw the sunset day parties on Sundays at the end of long weekends for a lot of people. They threw day party and I was like, I told my husband, I was like, we're going to go to this and we're going to bring Donovan. It says it's like family friendly and, and it was the beautiful lagoon, the lagoon park and like San Rafael and it was just like a perfect day and had a couple friends from back in the day who I told and they went and it, and it was, because it was daytime, um, it, it reminded me of what I, you know, of what I loved about this scene and it was the music, the people and just like the energy and so when I, when I'm like, oh gosh, I'm like such a like boring mom now, I'm like, I could always just like put on that music and like go dance in a room in my house and like, I can just get back to that space. Like I don't need the drugs. Like, you know, I've experienced it fully, um, as you know, if you've read the book and so I think it says, yeah, I think it's, it's easy to transport myself back to like the essence of why I love this. Um, and that's really exciting and even just the music can do it. Um, so, you know, I think it's, it's, and it is, it's, it's something that I didn't like talking about for a long time, like in my twenties, I had a lot of shame. I was like, oh my god, I was crazy. I was horrible to my parents. But now, I mean, obviously I'm an open book about it, but because I also accepted it's such a part of who I am and who I became good and bad, you know. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Mark? Um, I mean, personally, I'm really glad that, uh, techno music and electronic music is so geeky that, you know, you can, like, I often get together with my friends and we talk about the fact that 30 years ago we would be ham radio nuts or model airplane people because we're just geeking out about machinery and sounds and things like that. That's obviously just one aspect of it. Um, and then, you know, I mean, that was a big question that came that came to my mind often during the book was there's this youthful energy of rebellion, you know, kind of like, you know, encapsulized in the hippie movement, et cetera. Um, but, you know, present long before that, where does that go? You know, where does that spirit go? And have we built, you know, such a capitalistic society and such a materialist society that responsibility of later life just means these crushing burdens that do not enable us to live our ecstatic free lives. Um, you know, there's a lot of prejudice against older, you know, as I transition into a rave elder, I suddenly come face to face with the fact that, oh my gosh, I laughed at the 60 year old who was dancing at the rave in the 90s. And now I'm going to be that person. So I kind of, well, the nice thing about the Bay Area is that you still won't be the oldest person there because there's so many Peter Pan's in this city. That's so true. That's so true. And you know, I mean, so it's kind of, it's kind of a funny situation to be in, but thank goddess for those people, you know, even though the Peter Pan thing can get to be a little much, you know, just the, I'm so glad there's people who are still on the margins and outside of willing to endure the prejudices to do their own thing. Absolutely. And I'm sure you saw the, there was like a tweet that went like a screenshot of a tweet that went viral, like a month or two ago in a lot of kind of rave or social media forums about like, oh, people over 30 should be banned from music festivals. And the person who posted that got like ratioed so hard. I think the vast majority of people agree with you that, you know, no matter how old you are, if you're there for a good time and you enjoy the music, like it's an accepting place. So, you know, hopefully, you know, we create these spaces that are safe for everyone, you know, race, age, you know, gender, everything, you know, just if you're having a good time, you're welcome to come in and have fun. Do we have any more questions from the chat or I know it's about seven o'clock, so I don't want to keep us on here all night long, but I don't want to skip anyone if there was any people in the queue. I don't see anyone in the queue. However, there was someone who was, oh, it looks like they've popped out, but there was an anonymous attendee who had a question, but they didn't post it in the chat after all. So. Cool. I'm just dropping those links in one more time in case anyone missed them. Those are the links to the previous interviews with Jose and Samantha, as well as that great conversation between Mark and Vivienne on Rave for the Grave, where you just described some parties that I wish I had gone to that major FOMO listening to that interview. Yeah. But so will that do it for this evening then? Was there anything else anyone else wanted to mention before we wrap things up? Well, I think that was fun. And thanks for recording this and hosting. And I'm glad that it'll be up on YouTube soon for anyone that missed it, because my mom was curious about that. And I want to make sure that. Mine, too. Yes, I will send the link to all of our Eventbrite registrants, and then I'll send it to you folks directly through email. So you can share it around as much as you want or post it on your own website. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much for coming out tonight. And I look forward to seeing you downtown or at the Mechanics directly. Excellent. Thank you so much. Good night, everybody. Take care. Thank you. Good night. Bye.