 Scott, by the way, Aaron. Hi, Aaron. Oh, my gosh. Have you guys not met? No. I'm so sorry. Scott Johnson, Aaron Carson. I almost just said Aaron Johnson. It was so close. And Aaron works at Tech Republic with Jason Heiner, and she's super smart on VR, and Scott runs a podcasting network, and is an illustrator, and is super awesome, and you guys like a lot of the same things. There you go. Oh, wait. You didn't meet Darren, either. Darren Kitchen. Hi. Hi, Darren. That's Aaron Carson. How are you? Same applies, except Insert Hack 5. That's the tracked illustrator. My illustrations aren't as good. But he's the subject of many of them. Yeah. That's only because I lucked out getting Friday. Yep. You know all the things. Oh, yeah. That's true. It's on my desk, still. I did the stick figure. That is good. Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're ready. Any last questions, concerns, needs to run to the bathroom? Last questions. I see the one list. Would you like the sommelier to bring it out? All right. Well, let's get this on. What would you pair with this podcast? You know, I would probably pair a Shiraz for this one. A liver and a sweet and nice Chianti. We're going to have notes of encryption, but also virtual reality. So you need to have a bold red. Very geeky podcast. Yeah. We're going to have a good show, everybody. All right. Here we go. Daily Tech News Show is brought to you by me. You're welcome. But it's also brought to you by over 4,000 other people who also find some value in it every day. If you listen for the next 30 minutes and get even a little bit of value out of it yourself, consider going to patreon.com and searching for Daily Tech News Show and giving some value back. Now roll that beautiful theme music. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, February 17th, 2016. I'm Tom Marin. Got a packed show today. Scott Johnson joining us as he does most Wednesdays. Founder of the Frogman's Network. How you doing, Scott? I'm good. I'm just glad to be here on a show because they actually have some breaking crazy news and it's super awesome to be a part of it. So thanks for having me on. Later in the show, we're going to be talking about virtual reality and joining us to chat about that, as well as the headlines. Erin Carson, multimedia editor for Tech Republic. How you doing? Erin, good to have you back. I'm great. Thanks so much for having me back. And of course, the breaking news yesterday about Apple and its fight against putting any kind of access into its encryption got us to talk to Erin Kitchen into coming in on not Friday. So just at the top of the show, Darren's going to join us and discuss a little bit about the technical aspect of that story. Thanks for joining us, Darren. Yeah, woohoo! Hack the planning, encrypt all the things, or trash in our rights. I'm excited. Let's do this. All right, let's start off with the headlines. Last night, Magistrate Sherry Pym of the U.S. District Court of Central California ordered Apple to assist the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI, in breaking the password of an iPhone 5C used by one of the San Bernardino attackers. Now, the FBI wants Apple to provide a signed image file that could be loaded using the device firmware upgrade mode to allow electronic entry of multiple passwords without the delays, if they can manage it, that are built in to slow people down from entering software, but also, more importantly, to get rid of the feature that could delete data after 10 failed attempts. In other words, they want to brute force the password on this phone. Now, the key is getting Apple to provide that signed software so that the phone in question trusts the firmware upgrade. Apple is rejecting the request based on the precedent involved. In an open letter to customer, CEO Tim Cook wrote, once created, the technique could be used over and over again on any number of devices. Electronic Frontier Foundation is supporting Apple's appeal of the order. And there's a lot of debate about what Apple could do here. It's a 5C. If it wasn't an iPhone 5C, it would have the secure enclave that is associated with Touch ID, which Dan Guido has said would be difficult to modify. However, former Apple embedded security engineer John Kelly, who's now at Square, has said on Twitter that if Apple could be forced to modify iOS, they could be forced to modify the SEP firmware as well. So he believes it's a moot point. So really, what Apple is fighting here is on principle. In fact, Bruce Schneier says they might have even helped the FBI write this request to make it clear that this is technically possible, but Apple doesn't think they should do it anyway. The court is using the All Rits Act of 1789 as the basis of the request. And it would seem that Apple would need to convince on appeal that the request is burdensome. So we've had lots of discussions about whether backdoors should be allowed and Apple is taking a very strong stance here, saying this is a tantamount to a backdoor and so we don't think it should be legal. We think Congress should weigh in on this, not a court. But let's talk real quickly about the updateability of the secure enclave. Darren, does Apple have to write the security software in a way that would allow it to change it if it had to? Well, if Apple doesn't want to undermine its security and of course its brand reputation and customer confidence, then yeah, it needs to. It needs to write it in such a way that this doesn't become an issue for them going forward. If you take a step back and forget the atrocity, whatever that was, I don't pay attention to bad things, and you stop looking at the law as this law thing and more of a set of rules, like software is written, then this court order can be seen as a vulnerability against a would-be-secure system. So if Apple wanted to remove the All Rits Act as an attack vector, then it would need to rewrite iOS in such a way that the encryption partition is tamper proof and it is possible to design a system in such a way that altering the security functions of the operating system would thus render the data useless. As it stands right now, Apple could give, you know, push a version of iOS with their signed code to this device that would allow the FBI to do a brute force attack on the device. The decryption on the device does require going through our AES function from what I understand of the technical aspects does take 80 milliseconds. Typically, what you would want to do as an attacker is extract this information from the device and put it on a more powerful device, typically a very beefy FPGA-based cracking system specially designed to brute force passwords, but as Apple's system with its secure enclave and such are designed, the attack would have to take place on the device. So brute forcing this, if you throw out the whole 10 tries and then wipe the system feature, would take anywhere between 30 minutes, if it was a simple four-digit PIN code, to about five and a half years if you've got a six-character alphanumeric and it gets exponentially harder after that as you start adding more and more characters. So, and that brings up another point, is the FBI must be fairly confident that they think this is a four-digit passcode or it would be useless. If they knew it was a longer password and they knew it was going to take years to crack it, they wouldn't bother. I don't think there's a way for them to know but I believe they're just, doing the due diligence and trying or at least in this case, trying to get the court order to get Apple to provide a version of the operating system without this 10 try and wipe feature and if possible at the same time get the, you know, the decryption algorithm sped up a little so it's not 80 milliseconds per attempt. This is a very narrow request. It is the kind of request that usually people say is the way you should make a request. I need only access to this data on this phone and I have a court order so it is significant that Apple is blocking it because they say we think that this is burdensome. We think that this will be a bad precedent and that it would be used to allow essentially the legal equivalent of a backdoor and we don't want to be in the business of creating software which is what they're being asked to do here creating software that undermines our own security. Right, I guess it comes down to the interpretation of what's considered reasonable. If this were such that Apple just had to go to the back room and grab the right key then one could, you know, say that it's a reasonable request for the law to say, hey Apple, give us that key in the back room. Considering the fact that Apple actually needs to write very specific software signed with their keys to be loaded onto this using the DFU, it's a bootloader. There's ways to secure those bootloaders but it isn't in this case and one could argue that that's not reasonable so it is technically possible for them to comply with this. They are fighting this on principle however it's for a reason because this undermines the entire security suite for all users. See, if Apple does comply with this then the entire encryption suite is rendered moot as then any court could then take the same process to get at the data. If Apple does want to make a secure version of iOS that is immune to this, I call it a court order vulnerability, then the next version of the iPhone would have to use a method where the user data is either tamper proof or they can even lock down the bootloader completely so that it's encrypted with the key that the user sets up at the time of setup. The problem with that is that it makes it a lot more difficult for them to refurbish phones when you take it back to the Apple store and for them to be able to load code onto there so maybe a little notice where the user accepts the fact that if they want to enable that function that once it's a brick it's a brick for good but ultimately what's at stake here is Apple's brand credibility and the reputation. Alright, well Darren thank you so much for taking the time to explain that to us. Any more questions for Darren before we let him go? I just wondered if you think this goes let's say that this court order there's a lot of pressure to make it happen and Apple doesn't want to do it they're standing on their principles to not do it, the FF is behind it. Does this go all the way to the Supreme Court? I guess I'm asking for a weird prediction that's out in the ether but I'm very curious about how far this goes because it does seem very plain and simple either get us in or keep appealing until you get to the men in the black robes. This is really scary because unlike your other alternatives to cracking encryption which is the $5 wrench approach or the rubber hose approach to breaking encryption from what I understand the person that owns the encryption keys to this device is no longer alive so that's not a so that makes this a lot more sticky and actually this is a ridiculous slippery slope because if this sets a precedent then the same could apply to Microsoft operating systems Google operating systems open source operating systems and where does it end? I really hope that this does go further enough to set a precedent in the opposite way and say no if you go through the effort of securing your device in a manner where it can't be unlocked then that's the case there's two ways to go about it you can fix it with the law of technology I'm okay with either approach I kind of prefer the technology one because again the rubber hose thing so yeah we'll see how it shakes out but you know I'm rooting for personal privacy in this regard Alright folks if you want more of Darren's analysis more news more hackery check out HAK5.org we're going to let you go shoot some stuff with drones now Alright thanks Tom it's been great being on I got to get to something now Thanks a lot we appreciate it Darren will be back on Friday but let's continue with the headlines Twitter announced it is turning on a GIF button for all users over the coming weeks seems to pale in comparison and importance to the previous story I know but you haven't seen what people can do with GIFs yet when they're allowed to just have easy access to them unless you've been in Slack it calls the button GIF search the search is powered by GIF-E and RIF-C you can choose from pre-selected categories or by searching for specific words Erin excited about more GIFs and GIFs in your Twitter? Yeah I mean I was thinking this must be the first feature in a while that Twitter is introducing that people are actually excited about so good for them but it's almost kind of hard to believe they haven't had that already if you just kind of look at the proliferation of GIFs in popular culture and in messaging apps and whatnot so you just kind of figure I guess it's about time My wife converses with a colleague of hers almost entirely in GIFs I can do that with like Bitmoji Yeah I would like to go back to 1994 or so and tell myself what GIFs were going to do one day and I would not believe myself when I told them Facebook announced that any publisher can start using its instant articles platform remember this they started with select publishers a while back this starts on April 12th it starts the service with partners back last May of 2015 it serves up articles within Facebook's faster than if they were served by an external site so it sounds like we are out of quote-unquote beta stage and on to the next stage It's got that 15% rule where you can only have 15% of the content be ads and some publishers don't like that they don't think that's enough ads I can't tell if this means Facebook thinks it's successful enough to open it up or if Facebook needs way more people to try it but I guess we'll find out after April 12th that a bunch of people start using this Google introduced a feature called Gmailify to its Android app it checks email from other services like Yahoo Hotmail and Outlook at least those are the three to start with but manages the accounts as if they were hosted on Gmail's server so if you're using the Gmail app on Android to manage your mail it will now manage your Yahoo or your Microsoft mail exactly the way it manages Gmail this will apply Gmail spam filters organize emails by type apply the advanced search operators add things like travel and hotel reservations to Google now all that stuff Yahoo has a similar feature that they want you to use and of course Outlook has an import tool to get you to come over to Outlook and coincidentally Outlook.com came out of preview today so let the web based email wars begin yeah also it'd be nice to see if they go multi-platform with this as well and offer it to maybe even inbox users and give some of that robustness to the back end to other accounts I think that'd be great. LeapMotion announced a new project called Orion that integrates its motion tracking directly into virtual reality systems very interesting inception of sorts LeapMotion expects several VR companies to release headsets that incorporate the Orion sensor I don't know that we'll have any word that the big players primarily people at Oculus and the Vive are going to do this but it's an interesting thing for LeapMotion I think and it's LeapMotion not Magic Leap I think that confuses some people Magic Leap the AR company that we're waiting to actually get a real product from LeapMotion has a real product you can plug into your desktop and you can control your desktop with motion detection it is I have one it's okay but people are saying that I've tested this that this version works even better and it would be a killer app if it were a sensor included with say a smartphone that could be used in something like Google Cardboard we're going to talk a lot about VR in a little bit Aaron but what do you make of this news that Leap says hey we're going to have some deals maybe not with the big guys but maybe with a lot of third party or smaller VR makers yeah I mean for me I feel like I've kind of been waiting to hear something like this I mean it's funny obviously they were around before this whole big wave of VR so yeah it makes sense for them to kind of get a little bit more specific but something that I've been hearing a little bit is people wondering about with all the integration with gesture control and whatnot having hands in VR haptics are super important and for some folks it doesn't quite cut it to only be able to take visual cues that you're interacting with something versus feeling vibrations or whatnot yeah I mean we don't have the kind of the full slated details yeah Leap doesn't have if you don't know how Leap works folks Leap is just motion detection so that haptic feedback would have to be an accessory which would kind of almost defeat the purpose yeah it's a bit like connect in that sense it's sort of seeing what you're doing by moving and there's no other resistance or anything so yeah there's a challenge with that I believe Alphabet which if you recall is the name for the company that owns Google now has renamed Google Ideas which is its think tank to Jigsaw Google Ideas head Jared Cohen will serve as president of Jigsaw if you're not familiar with Google Ideas it's the unit charged with solving things like privacy, security, terrorism, human trafficking by influencing public policy this is Eric Schmitz pet project and nothing to do with the protagonist in the Saw films let's just make that quick I hadn't put that together yet next time you go to the campus if they put you in a room with a lot of Sawblades let me know how it goes Instagram has confirmed to engage it that it has begun slowly in their words rolling out two factor authentication system sends an authentication code as a text message I've yet to do any of this or see it so I don't think it's rolled out to me yet but I think that's always good when a service supports two two factor also it's a good week for Instagram when we had the addition of multiple account management and now two factor authentication which if you're going to have multiple accounts in one single failure points probably good to have two factor authentication tying it to the phone probably is okay in Instagram's case because they're a mobile app and you're pretty much not going to be using it without a phone it would be nice to have some kind of authenticator system other than the phone just you know there are people that use iPod touches and stuff like that somewhere Apple told the Economic Times that it will open a new development office in Hyderabad India with more than 150 people supporting maps development Economic Times has other sources though that tell it the center could employ as many as 4,500 people eventually and it does look like Apple is trying to lease a 250,000 square feet center in Tishman Spires Waverock facility I imagine you don't need 250,000 square feet if you're only planning on hiring 150 people or just working on maps like there's more that going on there I would bet and I'm sure we'll find out soon enough Indian mobile phone maker ringing bells love their name has released an android phone called the Freedom 251 or 251 rupees excuse me for 251 rupees for about that's US dollars four bucks that's super super cheap the 3G smartphone runs android 5.1 on a 1.3-year Hertz quad-core processor with a 960 by 540 display the next web notes that the phone shown in the newspaper ad does not match the one on the website which can be a problem ringing bells told NDTV's gadgets 360 the device was made possible with quote immense support from the government the company will accept pre-ordering starting on February 18th that would be tomorrow and shipment of the end by the end of June thanks to tech engineer for posting this on the subreddit that's pretty crazy though that price for any device small or big or slow or not that's you know four bucks I think we can do it do you believe it the fact that they've got I mean they could have the wrong picture in the paper for all kinds of reasons somebody just did the paste up art wrong or had a temporary image in there and then forgot to swap it out for the real picture but four dollars I mean these parts cost more than four dollars if they would have done the if the photo thing hadn't happened I would have been skeptical the photo thing makes me really worry having having dealt directly with some sort of I don't know what to call them but some experiences I have we're doing a lot of buying and selling for company I work for with China we would occasionally run into something like this where what we're being sent was not what was being shown to us whenever that happens I get skittish so I'm not saying that's absolutely a sign that they haven't figured out a way to make a sub four dollar device but it does seem a little fishy so proof of the pudding let's see some phones in people's hands let's see them ringing and working you buy it Aaron my initial reaction sort of similarly after the disparity between the two pictures is like well if it sounds too good to be true you never know but yeah and I think that I had read that the more attractive of the phones in the pictures was actually like a forty five dollar model or something like that so yeah which I mean it's still a great price but you know if you're touting four bucks two hundred fifty one rupees geez that's that's ridiculous alright well thanks to everybody who submit stories at our subreddit with lots of you I mean there was no doubt you were interested in the apple encryption story today and thanks for all the submissions dailytechnewshow.reddit.com you guys are the best when you get in there and vote let us know what stories you want us to hear and that is a look at the headlines alright so Aaron has been working on a story over at tech republic that's out looking over Google cardboard Goldman Sachs predicts VR will be more popular than TV by twenty twenty five you wrote and then Google has been throwing resources into VR there's rumors that we're going to get a standalone VR product possibly definitely some kind of new VR product from google over the next year tell us Aaron a little bit about what you found and what you're feeling about Google's cardboard VR at this point I think that Google cardboard has been absolutely fascinating to kind of watch evolve when they first announced it at or handed it out at IO in 2014 you know the general reaction was like what is this and and from those in the VR community who have a little bit more of a past and have a little bit more of a frame of reference there was a lot of skepticism that this was a terrible way to introduce people to VR because it's not really VR it's 360 video you know but the funny thing that has happened in the past two years is you've just kind of seen it work its way into you know product demos and sales and marketing and all this journalism all these kinds of little you know areas and so for them it all looks very positive and so not long ago Clay Baver who's sort of you know in charge of all this you know had a post that had all these really great numbers about cardboard you know that there are five million units out in the wild and there have been 25 million you know downloads of cardboard and all this kind of thing and so whenever I see a pile of numbers I just like to dig into it so you know I think the thing to remember is that these are really early days like this is going very well but you also have to remember for example you know a little bit more than a million of those units that are supposedly out there in the wild came from the New York Times in November when they put out you know their their app and mailed out units to subscribers you've got you know 75,000 from outside magazine you know you know companies will order in bulk and have units that are you know sort of printed out with their logos and hand them out you know so a lot of these probably end up in trash cans sadly yeah see that's the thing is there's not a really good way to figure out like how many of these are actively used I have two sitting on my coffee table at home that I just like have not used but they hand them out like candy so you know that factors in but it's been interesting because I kind of started working on this just shortly before the Financial Times reported that you know possibly the next version that we're going to see is not going to be cardboard but plastic and have better lenses and you know potentially some sensors to kind of go with it and so you have you have all these little signals is kind of hush hush oh they're they're moving you know a set of 10 people over to kind of dedicated design team and this is happening and that's happening and before you know it you realize Google's really getting serious about this so do you think that their seriousness only extend so far as the Google cardboard initiative in that this is meant for devices like mobile devices this isn't a oculus type effort where we're plugging lots of cables into a high-powered PC and providing the most high fidelity VR experience possible they're aiming more for the wider adoption of a potential mobile market is that kind of as far as this extends or is there anything you read in any of this that says well to start with yes but they may very quickly advance to something to compete in the oculus or or even Playstation VR space yeah well you know I think in my mind right now the thing that they're shooting for and maybe the thing that they understand that no one else is quite going for is the value of the middle you know so everything else that's out there right now or will be out there right now either requires a specific type of phone or a console or a really high-end computer and so what I'm pretty fascinated about is this kind of more recent report that has come out that is talking about I think like Tom mentioned earlier the standalone device that something that they would put out that would be untethered so you don't have a bunch of wires you know sticking out of the back of your head you don't have to use any type of a cell phone to power it and you don't have to plug it into a computer and I mean VR has had such a checkered and tricky history as far as kind of moving out beyond the loyalists that you know to me it seems like a really solid plan at least in the early stages is just to get into as many hands as possible and offering you know a better version of cardboard something that you know potentially does have sensors and kind of follows the mold of this description and the standalone product could be a way to you know get it out to a much larger swath of folks out there have a little bit better experience in terms of quality and then for them also kind of you know build out their whole ecosystem and platform around that so in my mind it kind of feels like a plate in the middle well and I feel like that's one of the things that people complain about is I don't want to have to be tethered and the other is what you were talking about earlier where well okay cardboard isn't tethered but then it's limited and if you can bridge that gap we had an email from Comey who's a big fan of VR trying to point out like hey we used to have corded headphones and we used to have big bulky headphones with surround sound and those eventually succeeded people got past their version to wearing a big thing on their head and he's like you have parallels even like made a spreadsheet for us of all the parallels to things like Google VR or Gear VR being that cordless version do you think do you think we get to a point of VR like we have with music where we have something that's good enough that becomes the more popular thing and while the Oculus and the PlayStation VR may be the higher fidelity virtual experiences we're fine with the MP3 of virtual reality that we get from maybe Google or Samsung you know I think so I mean I think that's a really good point I grew up in Nashville and I went to kind of a music school and a lot of my friends are audio files and they're engineers you know and you can listen to them talk all day about headphones and you know lossless audio and blah blah blah and that's a great thing to love and I find it noble but at the end of the day it's not a concern for most people you know I think that if we get experiences that don't make people sick that you know don't overheat your phone or your device or whatever they're sufficiently immersive that they are enjoyable that yeah there's probably a plateau where your average person is just like yeah this is good you know if they're not like you know a hardcore gamer someone who wants something that's a lot sharper and faster and more immersive for you know feeling like you're on an alien planet yeah VR of files right yeah Tom your comparison to MP3 is a really good one and I was trying to figure out how to formulate this but yeah if there's something in the middle that's good enough and by good enough I mean better than not good like MP3s for all of their you know for all the audio files that look at that stuff and go bad and turn their back to it it's good it sounds great it sounds better than any tapes I used to buy and not that different than the CDs I buy today and some are laughing at me right now as I say that but for me it's fine and for the biggest part of the population I also think that's fine so if they can figure out a way to hit that level it's gotta be better than garbage though like it can't be a 64k MP3 to keep using the analogy it's gotta be at 128 or better right whatever that means don't make me sick in that world but also the Google Play Store and how they leverage the OS of the device probably what should it be you know some sort of modified Android system but using it in a way that best utilizes their stores and their ecosystems and everything I mean they could have a serious hit on their hands and I wonder if this isn't why suddenly I mean there's probably other stories we could pull from to get this information but I wonder if that's why we suddenly stopped hearing about Glass so much and it seemed like immediately started rolling into stories about what they're doing with VR and to me the writing's on the wall I think that yeah Glass has become an enterprise product it's become a tool for businesses to use in specific situations it's they've they've pretty much stopped developing it as a consumer product well I'm interested in a way it's gonna be great and I would this is only a question I would really have about this from your perspective Aaron do you think that that this device is an um how do I put this is this when it comes to enterprise one of the things people most excited about with VR is like oh the medical uses and we can create all sorts of surgical models and other kinds of sort of industry based thinking around using VR this may be in that good enough category to do some of that don't you think it could I mean you know one of my favorite recent use cases for cardboard even was I can't remember where it was but there was a doctor who used cardboard to make like a 3D model of a baby's heart she had like a heart defect and so he was able to to use you know that kind of 360 view to analyze sort of like or put together a strategy for how he was gonna repair her heart and you kind of look at that situation and you're like okay well I mean this is somebody who already had the capability of you know putting together like a 3D model like that and cardboard is cheap and sort of readily available um and he was able to use it in this kind of very real world serious situation so I mean I think that that's what kind of one of those indicators that there are some actual uses that kind of go beyond sort of like silliness or fun or what not and when you hear about those things it makes people feel more serious about the product that this is not just like maybe some quirky little bit of swag that they handed out but this is actually something that maybe your business should look into using if you have you know some type of function that could legitimately be bettered by the use of 360 doesn't it feel like it snuck up on them a little bit like when they gave you that out they were just like oh isn't this funny we made a kind of a cool virtual experience out of a piece of cardboard haha anyway and they moved on to other stuff and now it's like whoa a lot of this stuff shipped and there are products being based on this spec that are selling on Amazon by the millions and we were maybe on to something that's kind of the impression I'm getting I would love to believe that they had some kind of strategy that they are going to kind of aim solo brow on this that like this is something you can make out of a pizza box that nobody was going to kind of get their dander up the way that they did about glass I mean you can't say that cardboard looks pretentious right yeah definitely not you can't make like any of those complaints you can't you almost don't want to take it seriously because it's it's cardboard so I would love it if that was part of the thinking if that was true well folks go check out Erin's great work at techrepublic.com we'll have the links in the show notes there's a great gallery that you did on patents if you're looking for more examples of what people might be using VR for things like firefighter training building ops where you can see how far before repair certain parts are what their lifetime usage is in real time lots of AR stuff check that out at techrepublic.com our pick of the day comes from Sean in fiber rich Kansas City just got to rub it in my face huh I just thought I'd pass along a great app I recently found that can best be described as slack for gamers it's called discord at discord app.com it's multi-platform free has a great user interface giffy integration voice chat and more it's missing some things that slack has but they've been actively working on it in the past couple months and it's pretty highly rated on both the google play and iOS app stores so you might want to check it out discordapp.com just what you need Scott another slack replacement I went into discord actually recently thinking yeah I probably ought to get into this all my gamer friends are using it it seems like a pretty cool platform and there's some things that does really nice over teamspeak and ventrilo and even skype that we're not getting from those services and I loaded it up and I went oh my gosh this is literally like slack like the way it's threaded the way you do information and stuff and posts and plugins and all this stuff outside of all the integrated voice stuff it is basically kind of a slack clone so now I don't know what to do they're both really good and I feel kind of torn a little bit because my communities are very you know big on both so yeah I don't know where it's where I stand with it but discord is pretty awesome and they seem to be going crazy with it I just don't know what their pricing model is and one day they're gonna have to make money so we'll figure it out send your picks to us folks feedback at dailytechnewshow.com and you can find more picks at dailytechnewshow.com a lot of great reactions to our discussions yesterday about Twitter and community Marlon the guy from Trinidad said I think it's just the fact that it's live it allows for quick reactions and as such just like in real life misunderstandings could occur if you can't handle it or it gets too much and he points out Stephen Fry has a public history of depression and we got similar comment from Guillaume and Brussels about that he said people also tend to look at interactions as binary it's either all good or all bad when I interact with people in social media I tend to use a continuum and explain that to people and it ranges from a disapproving look to you're on my list but I acknowledge that sometimes what the person said isn't all bad and this is the reason why they should think about what they said agreed yeah and then a really interesting email and I won't read the whole thing but it's from Brett Stewart who talks about hey you had mentioned that non-celebrities can still receive negativity when a post goes viral he was in the Colorado high school that had a school shooting in 2013 he wrote a post in the student newspaper about what it was like to be in that shooting the piece went viral it was quoted in the New York Times Washington Post the Denver Post one of the things one of the minor things he said in that piece was that walking out it felt like being in a movie like saving Private Ryan there was a Yahoo tech article that only quoted that part of his of his write up and he had a lot of veterans who didn't understand that that was not his main point didn't see it in context start coming at him on Google plus and places like that and he sent us a link to the actual article as well as the Yahoo tech article if you want to take a look at it but he had to suddenly have a bunch of angry veterans saying you don't know what it's really like when he was like yeah I wasn't trying to say I did I was just trying to say what my impression was having lived through it yeah I read the whole email and it's very interesting stuff but yeah this is the problem right like we can't it's so hard for us to like melt this stuff down into something we can all sort of agree upon you're gonna get harassed for taking something out of context it's no different in the past than it is today but it seems like it's just easier today for somebody to say something dumb I could say something dumb right now and I've done it on the show like kind of recently and people will call you on it and I like being constructively called on stuff because sometimes it's valuable yeah absolutely valuable but then there are other times where you're just nitpicking and taking the one little piece and then running with it and I feel bad for him that's clearly not what he meant well it's not I hate to even put the blame at anybody else's feet those guys are all making a pretty valid point about what it might really be like to be in the military but they're all talking about their they're all talking about something different to each other so if I had just jumped in here for a second on the yahoo side I actually know that the distinct process that I was there when this happened and that caused this particular type of problem which is like oh we can't put this whole thing up let's just create the most interesting clip and put it up and I the only thing I would say to this kid who obviously has a been through so much let's take a moment to realize that is that that author doesn't work a yahoo anymore well that's interesting it's not related to this but he doesn't work there anymore and it's you know like that sort of that sort of quick turnaround stuff has its own pitfalls and this is a really good example of that and that is repeated again and again in the larger internet world sometimes it is the fault of the author and and yet I still say it's the responsibility of the reader to evaluate your source and to say well wait a minute are they am I getting the whole story here because there's there's lots of examples of things like that and I have been guilty of half reading a headline and even expressing an opinion about that before I've actually read the full story and then going back and saying wait a minute that's not what the story is actually I had a $50 bill for every time I came to Tom with a headline I do this all the time before an offline and before we do a show but I'm like dude look at this and he'll go alright now you know what I'm going to say right and then I'll stop and think like this is complete garbage or this is conjecture or this is whatever it does take some work to see that stuff to learn to look past it to look under it to find the sources but yeah I think Tom's absolutely right it is on us also so it's on those veterans it's on a lot of people to consider the sources form opinions based on a more thorough understanding of what's going on and then approaching somebody and having a conversation with them your opinion carries more weight than ever before which is great but it leads to a little more responsibility I'm sure you've run into this where someone has misinterpreted something you've written before well you know I mean the thing that kind of comes to mind is that I was the editor of my college paper and so I keep an eye on it still as I think all former editors do and I remember that there was this little flap that happened maybe like a year or two ago where the sports editor had written an editorial that she was completely in her right to do and she just got attacked it was nuts and to the point where she was like begging the advisor to just take the article down you know and so that was an interesting conversation to kind of witness a little bit about you know this idea that it means something very different in this day and age to produce content and consume it and then kind of realizing well like at what point in your life is sort of a developing person or even further on down the line do you fully like learn or get those skills you know when are you being taught that when you see something that's on the internet that you really need to check out is that a blog post is that somebody's opinion? Karen I'll answer you it's not in the yahoo comment section that's for sure yahoo commenters are the absolute worst and I know that for a personal experience so it's also again all about the community yahoo for sure and it's kind of a sad thing to I'm sure that for this kid there was some amount of catharsis in writing about this experience but the sad truth is you have to be prepared that something that you wrote that even if you felt that it was innocuous could just end up being the subject of a lot of betrayal as Shane said in our chat room just now look before you tweet finally Russell wrote in and pointed out that he thought it was fun when we were talking about the quartz storage that long term storage that can hold terabytes hundreds of terabytes of information that it said it could hold it for a lifetime of approximately 13.8 billion years since that's the estimated current age of the universe wow that's true so there you go that storage lasts at least one universe length up till now that's where you go after the edabytes you get to the universe I guess thanks again to Darren Kitchen for joining us hack5.org, jk5.org thank you Scott Johnson for joining us frogpants.com what else is going on? Well we just launched a new little weekly project myself and Justin Robert Young another frequenter of the DTNS staff and he and I are doing something called hotline Monday every Monday at 2 p.m. Pacific 5 p.m. Eastern we do a live call-in show for about an hour and you can find all the details at frogpants.com or you will be able to find that URL later today but very excited about it we did a beta show on Monday and had a blast so go check it out Aaron thank you so much it's great to have you back techrepublic.com of course to find a lot of Aaron's writing where else can people find you I'm on twitter at Aaron Carson is probably the best place to hit me up E-R-I-N-C-A-R-S-O-N thanks to everybody who supports the show patreon.com slash DTNS we are more than 50% towards being able to have day 6 as a regular addition to the show so if you get value out of the show all we're asking is hey give a little bit of that value back tell us what the show is worth dailytechnewshow.com slash support our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com call 51259daily that's 5125932459 catch the show live Monday through Friday 430pm eastern at alphageekradio.com and diamondclub.tv visit our website dailytechnewshow.com back tomorrow with Justin Robert Young and maybe Veronica Belmont if she's better talk to you then this show is part of the frog pants network get more at frogpants.com diamondclub hope you have enjoyed this brover show you guys what should we call it it was great let's see FBI huffs and puffs on apple's back door tweeting in gifs i know alphabets jigsaw puzzle no apple for the FBI apple of my FBI don't use it but it's kind of stupid dad joke i love it does it it doesn't fit you're right talk it away talk it away the mp3 of virtual reality um an apple a day keeps the FBI away abbey abbey uh vr vr files how do you spell that vr o files i guess i have a chance to make up that word let's coin it coin it we'll be top of the search results for vr files yeah veracic park nice i like that uh fendango buys rotten tomatoes and flickster what yeah the verge just had it so fendango bought flickster yeah because flickster i think already owned rotten tomatoes but rotten tomatoes like really is the name that people care about i feel like and then flickster has its own video service which no one knows about it's uh it's ultraviolet supported which is interesting because fendango has been putting out a lot of original content lately i what was it that if i went and saw this weekend i would have gotten a free version of the first movie in the series like they were giving away a free copy of the previous movie but i don't remember what movie it was yeah i uh i'm like that's smart giving away movies to go see movies well though i have a friend who works for their original content creation and so i sense um i sense a larger plan um god i can't believe yahoo i should not go down this road but okay so we go mp3 of virtual reality or vr of files vr of files yeah that's fine i mean you know mm-hmm um also i feel like yeah we haven't had a chance to do this for a while and so i thought you should know that in my neighborhood the things that are going on are free boxes how to describe a suspect to the police always useful in hollywood uh dog beach and thieves just stole my uh yeah i'm gonna click on that and thieves just stole my catalytic converter followed by catalytic cleaning lady oh really the juxtaposition is amazing coincidence coincidence that's hilarious catalytic cleaning lady it's uh it's a petition for a dog three five beaches for off leash dogs each would be a quarter mile wide that's not bad so like what they do in huntington beach but up here yeah because there's only like one little tiny strip in malibu that i know of yeah leo career right well some of those require leashes but there there's like this little strip of like basically no man's land that's often underwater um that uh that yeah yeah redondo and huntington both have official like maintained dog beaches which are awesome anyway that was usually we do that in the pre-show but mine came in late erin this is what we do for fun we read next door at our compost oh man great job by the way that was super awesome yeah well done you brought the authority yeah oh lord yeah it just always cracked me up how like last year and i can't remember if i told you guys the story or not but i've been talking with jason and we're like oh yeah i wish you would do like a post a month on vr like that you know yeah and all of a sudden it's an industry i have an idea tom when you first do the inevitable and you know this is going to happen but the inevitable vr episode of dts where everyone involved is wearing a helmet we're all in some virtual room that somebody put out that works uh and you're just recording it but you're doing it to test or whatever you got to have erin back on for that totally oh yeah you and i'll both have oculus risks by then you should all be this that'd be really fun that'd be so fun an actual roadmap plan yeah it could be the worst thing ever but it might be great so i like it would you come would you come back for that erin oh hundred percent awesome so you guys have ordered uh the rift yep what's your ship date jill june june's may really here's after me i think mine's may i think mine's before you how can that be you not know your birthday well no no tom ordered before me and i thought he was getting his before i've never talked about birthdays i was like come on scott i think you're getting yours in april because i think it was a month before me yeah you're right i'm getting mine in april i don't know why i thought i was june it's not on release day though it's later yeah what's amazing how quickly like they were blowing through the stock i mean i never got my email yesterday to buy the bundle though oh i didn't either i got something about that yesterday they started going out yesterday supposedly and you could you could start buying bundles on pre-order at like best buy i think there was another thing there was um amazon okay something yeah where can you upgrade to the bundle well yeah what they're doing is if you if you checked that box when you bought your rift they're gonna send you a special offer to upgrade your order to include the bundle and you can choose from the ace or the dell or the alien war okay yeah all right yeah i haven't gotten that either i did select that though yeah i selected it too i those are also shipping late really want to get inoculus quite badly should get one i know oh you need the computer to run it on too that's the sticking point right there i am your sticking point example of not wanting a big giant alien where vr pc where like where would it be although i guess here would be pretty good these problems put it under a desk and then it um i have room to move around a little bit in this office doing any like oculus ready type you can ask i have a meeting with them tomorrow and i'm gonna ask them that very question because i think they good if they aren't don't you think seems like you know small manufacturer like that that's trying to you know do something maybe a little bit different than the big boys i think it'd be awesome yeah i think so too i'm gonna ask erin we just like hang around and edit and stuff so you're welcome to hang around and edit but if you have like a j o b that you have to deal oh i am at the end of my day oh good hang out yeah i just didn't want you to think this was like part of the job like this is the optional part of the job i like i like that you spelled it like i used to for my kids when i didn't want them to know what i was talking about i like that oh yeah i don't know why i did that don't want the boss to hear i think you need to go to the hospital for an s a n t j o p uh no i'm done for the day i've been fighting off like a cold or an allergy or something so i think i'm just gonna go home and like crash and take a half day tomorrow or something i was worried i was gonna like spend the show like hacking or like blowing my nose man i'm getting over something it would not be the first time erin not the first time not the first time they brought it with your thing tom she had like full on flu it sounds like it's pretty close to the same thing yeah so what you're saying is that flu came from hawaii maybe yeah she didn't get it till february so i don't know maybe it was a lurker and i lean knock on wood never got it did you get a shot no it's tougher just tougher yeah producers are tougher and we're exposed to more people uh so that like you might get like a little whiff of it but then you defeat it uh but tom lives in his basement Veronica lives in a small room and so they don't have like good good immunity stereotypes just so many i think about that all the time because i travel about once a month for work and so yeah you know it's just like airport to airport to airport um and and so far i've yet to come back sick from one of those trips that's amazing so yeah and oh i just got back from houston on monday which wasn't a work trip but of course that that's the trip that like i got back from the airport late went to bed three hours later woke up and was like oh my throat's on fire but otherwise i've had pretty good luck they say if you sit on the aisle you have a greater chance of catching something because that's where everybody touches the armrests and stuff interesting i'm a windows seat person and my wife is too i'm a windows seat i just want to turn my head and stare at the world exactly and continually marvel at being 30 000 feet in the air traveling very fast before knowing that i would always choose the aisle because i would have the ability to stick my feet out you know get a little extra room but now i don't think it's worth it yeah i just end up like getting the windows seat just passing out that's my whole motivation is just the side of the airplane that's the kind of person i want to sit next to is the person doesn't have to get up either who leans towards the window totally i think my friends made it to the Buenos Aires by now which is super exciting they had multiple legs oh on their way to Antarctica on their way to Antarctica so exciting i'm like tracking their progress because it's really it's really quite something yeah well that's like a bunch of vacation photos i'd want to see i mean mostly polar no not polar bears that's elsewhere penguins wait are there polar bears in the south pole i thought that was like the north pole i can't remember where the polar bears are in the north polar bears are definitely well actually now weirdly enough they're like in canada like in canada like in canada at this point yeah i think there's probably more of them in Kansas than there are unfortunately in the north pole there's a lot of them polar bears only live in the northern hemisphere thanks roger thanks roger thanks roger pedia well hold on hold on i don't exist in the wild how did how did a polar bear kill greg grungberg because he was trying to figure out what happened to the plane exactly how did he oh where did that polar bear come polar bears also live in the mind of the writers have lost how did they get lost on the islands of hawaii for so many seasons i mean everybody goes to that particular valley in hawaii i don't know why they didn't run into anybody it's ridiculous that was in the best way in the show yeah there's like a city nearby but it was too short so they just dropped the found part just lost look at that cute little baby foot it's baby foot day alright i'm out of the post so thanks everybody for watching thanks everyone goodbye