 this conference will now be recorded to the South Burlington Development Review Board meeting for February 17th, 2021. My name is Matt Kota. I'm chair of the Development Review Board with me on the DRB is Brian Sullivan, Mark Baer, Don Filibert, Alyssa Eyring, and Jim Langen is not with us today. Is that correct Jim? Yep. Don't hear him. He's not here. But he had to be away for a professional obligation and we do have a vacancy on the board but there's some news about that coming up. Also in attendance from the City of South Burlington is Marlekeen, our developer review planner, and Delilah Hall, our zoning administrator. First item on the agenda are additions, deletions, or changes in the order of agenda items. Is there any additions, deletions, or changes from staff or the board? I'm seeing none. We'll move on to agenda item number two, which is announcements. As I begin every announcement here in this new age of Zoom meetings, virtual meetings, I want to thank you for those in attendance, those on the phone, those watching online. As a reminder, this meeting is being recorded. I also want to remind anyone who wishes to participate in this hearing that they should sign the virtual sign-in sheet. That's often called the chat box. If you don't know where the chat box is or you're having trouble or if you're on the phone and don't have access to the chat box, you should send an email to marlekeen at m-k-e-e-n-e at esparl.com, or to me, m-coda at esparl.com, to provide your contact information. It's necessary to sign in digitally in order to be considered a participant. Should you want to obtain party status in order to appeal a decision made by this board? You can also submit comments in writing through email, fax, or snail mail, of course. I would ask anyone that's participating to mute your phone or computer so we don't hear the ambient noise in the background. Delilah can mute all, but it's a lot easier if everyone just sort of mutes their own, the phone themselves. The second announcement to make is that, Marla, is this okay if I do this, is that we did have a vacancy on the board. We will soon have a new member. Her name is Stephanie Wyman. I believe she is watching and listening tonight. I won't make her introduce herself. She doesn't want to, but we look she will not be participating as a board member tonight, but she will be, I'm told, with us March 3rd, which is very exciting. We're very happy to have her. Stephanie, are you there? Excellent. Great to see you, Stephanie. Happy to be here. The third comment on the agenda is, excuse me, the third item on the agenda is comments and questions from the public not related to any of the items that are on the agenda. So if you have a comment, there's a couple of ways to do that. First is to just enter your name in the chat box and say I'd like to make a public comment not related to the agenda, or you simply shout out, hey, Matt, I want to say something and I'll call on you and make sure everyone has a chance. But this is anything not related to the agenda tonight. So I'm going to check the chat box. I see some people have signed in. That's great. Thank you very much, John and Roger. I don't see anyone ask you for a public comment not related to the agenda. I'm not hearing anyone shout out my name. So I'm going to move on to agenda item number four, which is site plan application SB 21007 and conditional use application CU 2101 of Rice Memorial High School to amend a previously approved site plan for 126,875 square foot educational facility. The amendment consists of 160 square foot building expansion to house a new cooler freezer at 99 Proctor Avenue. Now I'm told by staff that the applicant has requested a continuation to work out extending issues before a DRB review and staff recommends the continuation of this item to March 16th, and I have no objections to that. So I would make a motion that we continue site plan application SB 2107 and conditional use application CU 2101 of Rice Memorial High School until March 16th. Do I have a second? I'll second that. Thank you, Don. Do a roll call, Brian? Aye. Mark, Alyssa, and Matt votes aye, and we have continued the application until March 16th. Now we move to the fifth item on the agenda, which is the preliminary plan application SD 2040 of O'Brien ECU LLC to create a plan unit development of six existing parcels currently developed with three single family homes in a barn in totaling 102.6 acres. The development is to consist of 135 homes in a single family duplex and three family dwellings on nine lots totaling 21.8 acres, 19 commercial development lots totaling 44 acres, one existing single family home, and 25.1 acres of developed open space at 500 Old Barn Road. Who is here for the applicant? Matt, I'd just like a disclosure, please. I'd like to disclose that I actually am a resident. I own a property in Hillside, but I don't believe that will compromise my objectivity at all, and if anyone has any concerns, please raise them. I knew about this when I bought my property, or I had a vague sense of the development, so I believe I can act objectively. Thank you for that, Don. Great. Who is who is here for the applicant? Evan Langfield, I'm the president and CEO of O'Brien Brothers. Hey, Evan. Andrew Gill, the director of development for O'Brien Brothers. Great. Thank you, Andrew. Anyone else with you? Evan and Andrew? Yeah, we have a few consultants online too. Scott Homestead from ESB Design. Joe, excellent. Okay, since this is the start of preliminary plight, could I have all five of you raise your right hand and swear to tell the truth out of penalty of perjury? I do. I do. Just for the record, all five said yes, and we've gone through the disclosures. So now before we start this process, I'd like to form the public what we're about to do. We're currently at the preliminary plight stage review. Now back in April, the board reviewed a sketch plan, as we do, provided guidance to the applicant, oral guidance, not written guidance. This is the first formal stage of this review process. So what's going to happen? The applicant is going to describe the project. As we do, we give the applicant an opportunity at the beginning of preliminary plight to provide context and color to their reason what they're doing and why they want to do it. And then we step through the staff comments for preliminary plight. Our goal through this process is to make sure this project conforms with Southboro and its land development regulations, what we call LDRs, which are written by the Planning Commission and approved by the City Council. We're here to make sure that they are in conformance with those LDRs. As happens in every hearing before the DRV, the public will have an opportunity to comment, ask questions during the public comment period. All questions and statements should be directed toward the board chair, not directly to the applicant, but I'll facilitate that process. It should be said that this is a very big project. The applicant narrative alone is 56 pages. I did count them. It will likely take several hearings to ensure that we review this project fully. When we continue this hearing, the next hearing date will be announced at the end of the night. Now at the end of preliminary plight, the DRV will vote on whether to close the hearing and once closed, we'll enter deliberations and with 45 days issue a decision on the application. Decision will be mailed to the applicant and those that identified themselves as interested persons, those that have signed the digital chat box, the digital sign-in sheet or emailed Marla or myself. But remember this is only preliminary plight. It makes it through this process. The development has to go through another formal stage review. It's called final plight. Nothing happens quickly in Vermont, well, except for the weather. I'm not done talking yet. I want to reiterate that we will not make it through all of staff comments tonight. Staff has done a tremendous job and the applicant has put together a lot of materials. We're not going to make it through the comments tonight. I hope we make it through most of the roadway discussion and reserve time, as I always do for public comment. If you're a member of the public and you'd like to comment or email, you'd like to come by email or make a comment at a future hearing, you absolutely have the opportunity to do that. This isn't your one and only shot tonight. I just want to make that clear. And to that end, the chair of the natural resources committee, Raymond Gonda and David Crawford, also of the natural resources committee, contacted me by email a couple of days ago, a week ago, to let me know that they have studied this project, as I know they do, and would like to make a presentation not limited to the short three-minute public comment period that we give everyone who wants to make a comment. And I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Gonda and Mr. Crawford. And we absolutely want to provide a forum to do that. And we can discuss when it'll be done later tonight. I also want to add that we are in receipt of comments from Sandy Dooley of the Affordable Housing Committee, Mr. Goldman and the Energy Committee, Lauren Wedman on behalf of the Rec and Parks Committee, and as previously mentioned, Mr. Gonda and the resource and natural resources committee. Some of these comments have been incorporated by staff into the packet, but not all of them. And I think those of us on the DRB, at least speaking for myself, want to make sure that all the volunteer committees that put in so much time to study these very large projects, which will have a tremendous impact on our community, have a chance to have their say, but we want to make sure they have to say after absorbing everything that we hear tonight, and perhaps relook at the packet, but we'll make sure that happens. Not tonight, but in the future. If there are members of the committee, as we discuss certain items, we may ask you for a comment, or you may want to raise your hand and offer a comment, but we also want to make sure that this is not the only time that the volunteer committees will have to offer comments on this project. There will be a time, likely in March or in April, where they can do that as well. Now, after all of that, I apologize, but I want to give Evan and Andrew an opportunity to describe the project as they best see fit before we go ahead and step to the staff comments. So Evan and Andrew, I'd hand it off to you, and please describe what you want to do with this parcel. Can I do that briefly? Yeah, thanks, sorry. Just because I know it's probably going to be a late night, and as Matt said, we're hopeful we'll get through most of the comments pertaining to roadways. If members of the public or committees sort of fade off before then, you know, they realize that the part of the project they're interested in isn't going to be talked about tonight, I would anticipate, it's not final until the board votes, but I would anticipate that we will be seeing this project again on March 16th. So you can email me to confirm that that's true after tonight, but that's the likely continuation date. Good, thank you for that, Marla. Okay, Andrew, Evan, take it away. Great, well thank you all for being here and for hearing about our project. As Matt said, it is a large project, so what we did was we prepared a PowerPoint presentation. Marla, is it possible to put up the overview presentation that we can walk through? And what our kind of take on this is that we will start from kind of a broader context and then sort of funnel down to the project that we're talking about here and also the staff comments. And I just want to again thank the DRB members who have already heard the sketch plan of this large project, but also staff's efforts. It is a pretty significant lift getting through all these materials, so we appreciate everybody's and also the volunteer committees who have already weighed in. Marla, is it possible to give me the control of the deck or no? Well, first off is Delilah runs the screen. Evan, you have the ability to draw on the like make you know, notates with the drawing tools, but not advance the screen. No, I don't, I don't, I don't even. And as Evan and Andrew, there's also, you know, as we, what I would like you to do, because I think it runs smoother, is don't feel like you have to provide a complete overview right now, just looking for, I know it's a big project, so it's going to take some time, but don't step into the staff comments until you're finished with your overview and that I think will smooth things or allow the process to go a little bit more orderly. So if you could, if you just start with what do you want to do here, reintroduce us to this project that we first heard about in sketch plan. You can offer, you know, some of the things that have changed since then, but really sort of the introduction to what, what is being planned for this, this piece of land. Yep, so Delilah, maybe we could start on page four of the overview. So this is really just giving a little bit of background on the overall property. The O'Brien families own the property since 1944. It's roughly 140 acres in its totality, although what we'll be talking about today is actually closer to 100 acres. In 2017, we broke ground on the first aspect of the project, which is, you probably all recognize as the hillside project. It's 115 single family homes and townhomes and it was done through a master plan preliminary and final flat permit process. Of that project, we're over 60 percent of the way sold out between homes already occupied on site and homes under contract and under construction. And we're really pleased to be moving towards final completion of the project to this broader mixed-use pedestrian-scale project, which incorporates another residential neighborhood as well as more commercial and mixed-use aspects to it as well. We can advance to the next screen, sorry. So the parcel information again, it's 108. It's four zoning districts. What you're looking at is an aerial view that has our project site overlaid onto it. So the road running north south right through the middle of it is Old Farm Road. Kennedy Drive is on your left. Kimball Lab is on your right. The entire project is really located in the core density area of the city with Wilson Road to the north bounded by Hinesburg Road to the south and, as I said, Kennedy and Kimball Lab. You've got mixed-use development. You've got residential neighborhoods. You've got the mixed IC district, which is more akin to a commercial office space type business park zoning. We can advance to the next screen. And so really what we're proposing here is not all that different from what we have seen on the Hillside project to begin with, which is a single family and townhome neighborhood. So it's essentially an extension of the Hillside development where you've got both common space. You have four-sale homes and then you have an extension on the north that has more mixed-use higher density and commercial as well as to the east. And again, it incorporates common spaces. It incorporates green spaces, path networks, etc. And so what we're trying to get across with this screen is that this isn't coming out of the blue. It's more an extension of the project that we've already permitted and already have underway. So what's different now from when the Hillside project was originally permitted is there really wasn't something to look at and say, yeah, this is what we're going to be receiving other than the plans we were showing. Whereas now you can actually go up on site and get a flavor for what we're providing and how the architecture has turned out and how the green spaces look. We can advance the next screen, please. This screen's really showing kind of what we're stating is a delivery on the commitments that we've made to the city. I think that the project that we have delivered, the Hillside project, has been very well received by the buying public. I think it's also come across very well to the community. So you have, again, a variety of styles of homes on the fore sale product, single family homes and town homes, a variety of different buying demographics, you know, young professionals, families, active seniors, etc. And there's a variety of different price points. And then as we're moving forward on the next phase of that original Hillside master plan, we're moving into the higher density apartment rental buildings just in the north. So if you look at the bottom left page, as you the DRB members are certainly aware of, we are actively in the the permitting process of that. We closed out a preliminary plan this past fall and we're in the final plan preparation stage. So that's looking at a digital rendering of what the buildings will look like as we move forward with that piece. And these these homes to the right are actual homes in the Hillside neighborhood, which while some of those designs will be incorporated this next east view phase will also have additional designs to supplement them. But on the upper right corner, you have some of the uphill style town homes, so those are duplexes. And then on the bottom or the middle of the bottom, I should say, is a single family style home. And we can just advance to the next screen. And one of the other points that is made on this page is that with these 115 homes in that first phase of Hillside, plus the apartments in that next phase of Hillside, and then this east view phase, we're really delivering on the building homes together partnership, which is, as I think most of you know, really a joint venture between a variety of housing providers, as well as the local municipalities, including the city of South Burlington as a partner, the Chinden County Regional Planning Commission, to get a number of new house markets to fight this housing crunch that we're currently under. So this is a broader view of the development. Under construction is on the upper right, which is the Hillside neighborhood, so that's 115 homes. Just below that is the proceeding to Final Platt, which are the apartment buildings that we're currently in the permitting process for, still again in that original master plan permit for Hillside. And then as you get to the middle of the page, you see where Old Farm Road is. It's actually showing the new proposed alignment of Old Farm Road where we would jog to the east and intersect onto Kimballab. So it creates a more logical egress onto Kimballab, a safer egress, I should say, and then the proposed housing development, which is this next phase of the residential neighborhood. And again, it's a combination of single-family four-sale homes and townhomes four-sale as well as amenities and green space. On the far left hand, you'll see the subdivision, which is a commercial business park. And then on the bottom of the screen, you've got two more subdivisions, one at the Kimball Canada intersection and one further east along the Kimballab frontage. And those are both in the C1LR, so commercial one, limited retail zones that provide for more higher density mixed use development. So again, we have four different zoning districts all have their own flavor. Some are strictly residential and some are more mixed use and some are more catered towards strictly commercial. And so what we try to do is create kind of a holistic plan here. It's one of the last remaining large parcels in the city and kind of the core development and density area. And again, our goal is to have a pedestrian-scaled development that has a variety of uses, a variety of living styles, where you can walk to work and you have amenities that you can take advantage of as well as being close to your home in advance to the next. So this is another aerial rendering, which is showing a kind of a broader conceptual buildout of the site. And I think what this really does is it gives a flavor for kind of the long-term vision. So we've got on the right hand again the hillside neighborhood outlined in white, which has both the residential poor sale as well as apartment buildings. In the middle of the page you have the proposed east view neighborhood buildout. And then what's more kind of clearly fleshed out here is a potential conceptual layout of the mixed use and commercial uses. And what we're trying to do is incorporate them again, so they're easily accessed by the residential neighborhoods, but also have kind of appropriate spacing and buffers to separate them. So each of the neighborhoods or each of the components of this larger develop has its own flavor to it, but I think they all work very well together on the right hand or excuse me on the left hand side in the sidebar you can get a feel for what the full potential buildout of those spaces are. That's the next screen, Delilah. So this page is really getting at what the comprehensive plan calls out for the style of development in this area. So this is actually a heat map that's shown in the city's comprehensive plan. And so this is you know kind of referring to the energy and environment in the core location. The east view is proposing development that's centrally located in the city's core development areas, which is designating the comprehensive plan. Services and employment reduces commuting the associated environmental impacts and the existing infrastructure capacity and public transit to access them. So again what we try to do is align our development very closely with what the comprehensive specifically calls out for. Can I advance the screen please? Again this is sort of reiterating that point. So we're proposing development that avoids mapped areas of significance in the city plans and we had our consultant skillmen and Briggs review and prepare a plan. The areas of designated significance are avoided and there's 24 acres of dedicated green space which represents approximately 25 of the overall project plan. Gland green space is protected environmental resources that have been called out in that study. So again you can see how that those designated green spaces or natural resources are laid out here and called out on this plan. Can we advance it? Well we've also tried to achieve at hillside and I think we've successfully achieved and we will continue with the east view development is building homes that are energy efficient. You know that really incorporate green building techniques and best practices. Right now our homes that we're building at hillside and similarly will be incorporated in the east view are certified efficiency Vermont and they're exceeding the 2020 stretch code. They've got solar ready roofs, we've got customized mechanical and electrical systems, tight exterior envelopes, high quality energy efficient Marvin windows and we've partnered with solar providers to make the seamless activation of solar rays should the home buyers wish to incorporate them. And then on the left you can see this is actually an ad that we've been running or one iteration of an ad we've been running to call out some of the green features of the building at hillside and again the building styles that will be constructing at east view be along the same lines. So this is the energy environment resource conscious so this slide is really getting at the fact that similar to the hillside project where there was a lot of ledge removal that took place what we're intending to do here is remove a ledge that's closer to or it's actually within the the mixed ic district and crush on site and then use that that ledge to lay down for for the road construction for sidewalks for driveways and really what that does is it allows us to remove the number of truck traffic that would be required to bring in material and or truck off material offsite. I think you know folks that were watching the hillside development take place while I think everyone would acknowledge there was a lot of rock there to be dealt with at the same time the the reduction in keeping the that truck traffic off the surface roads was pretty dramatic and it's also you know the the ability to to actually reuse that material on site I think is you know something that we should all be striving for in our projects if you can use the resources that are there not only are you saving you know surface traffic or road traffic truck traffic on on surface streets and the wear and tear and congestion that goes along with it but you're also reducing the fossil fuels and you know the smog that's associated with with trucking that that material in and out so the plan again is to to have this borrow pit that we can crush the stone on site and then reuse it on site we think it's actually a very environmentally conscious approach to development and this just details some of the the actual quantities that we're projecting to use so this is a connectivity map which is showing really how we're trying to provide a pedestrian and bicycle connectivity throughout the entire project as well as vehicular connectivity we have a network of connections focused on bike and pedestrian infrastructure in line with a comprehensive plan some of those highlights include recreation paths along kimble avenue as you can see on the kind of upper right hand designated in that the red line recreation path connecting kimble with tilly drive part project parcel the extensive sidewalk and solid surface path network a trail network connecting all aspects of the project and interconnected open spaces that not only provide pedestrian connectivity but they also provide wildlife corridors advance the next screen please so again another slide touting the connectivity and accommodation of automobiles so this one is showing the proposed signalized intersections onto kimble lab and onto kennedy drive so kennedy drive has a signalized intersection already permitted to access onto the the multifamily project as well as the hillside development and then you have two new proposed signalized intersections onto kimble lab one from the rerouted old farm road drive and then on the east side of the property and access through the mixed ic district which is actually a road that has been designated on the city's official map this is showing a slightly different location of it we've actually shifted it further to the east to make for a more logical layout of those commercial lots but as it proceeds south so towards the top of the page it would then jog to the west so along kind of the property line with the tilly drive property to make for a logical connection to that development it's really what you're trying or what we're trying to do is provide logical connectivity for automobile traffic to get you know through the project to get people to the project but also at the same time provide the pedestrian and bicycle connectivity as well so we can advance to the next screen so the green space and recreational amenities that we have planned for the project and to include two significant green spaces excuse me that the hillside project features two significant green spaces one of which is a park containing a playground which if any of you have driven through the hillside development it's kind of a football shaped park it actually has a playground facility in there it's landscaped etc but then we also have some more natural areas buffer areas as well as walking paths there's a walking path around our stormwater area and then we have some resource areas that we've protected as well eastview is going to continue along with that mindset we're going to add five more large green spaces and the combination of the the hillside and eastview will offer 35 acres of green space according to about 25 percent of the total project area so roughly 25 percent of the 145 acres is going to be open green space which is a pretty significant investment when you're talking about the the the acreage of this property as well as the density of the area that's being developed and advance the next screen please so this is identifying on the the site plan where those recreational spaces are so at the top left you'll see number one so that's a multi-use park or it could be a soccer field and you go through the ball around with your kid play frisbee but basically right now it's sort of a a flexible space that's in one of the few flat areas of the development so it's basically at the crest of the hill at the south end of old farm road the second area is to the north end of old farm road before it jogs down where it's hitting kennedy you'll see that number two and again that's a that's what we call sort of a natural playground area there's going to be some interesting features for for kids to play on provides again kind of a green buffer space and a path network through there number three which is immediately to the left of the the gray rectangle and by the way the gray rectangle is actually a private property that's owned by an o'brien family member but is not incorporated into the development so it's actually the original o'brien homestead the farmhouse at the top of the hill so what we try to do is you know have a development that that sort of wraps around it and is respectful of that that site but it is a private property so that's why it's excluded from the the the site planning here but the number three amenity is the historic barn which i'm sure many of you are familiar with at the top of the old farm road and the the plan on that site is to preserve the barn in the the large kind of traditional historic barn area take down the the single story level and then create a clubhouse and a pool space for the residents of the the development and so it'll have in a kind of an event space field or lawn as well as a larger pool and then a kids play space pool as well as this clubhouse number four is actually both a another playground area as well as a dog park so there's a fairly large enclosed dog park that would be open to the public and we know that there that's kind of a been a point of concern or desire in this neck of the the city so we thought that having something there that both our residents on site could utilize as well as residents in the surrounding areas could utilize to be a positive and then the fifth amenity is the the green space that's going to be preserved down by the potash brook area so that'll be preserved as treeline and all of this will be connected with the path network and workout loops so we'll have workout areas kind of surrounding this the trail network so you know you can stop you go for a run and at various places you could stop and do some workout activity similar to what you see on the burlington waterfront with their bike path so we can advance that slide so this is just a little bit of a zoomed in look at that barn amenity so again the the gray spaces the rectangles there the one on the top of the page is the existing barn that will be preserved and then the one below that is this new kind of clubhouse feature that you can see in the rendering on the bottom you can see the the pool to the right of it and then on the left you see a parking area which to the left of that is old farm road but in between you have a community garden space a large you know kind of a significant community garden space that we intend to flesh out and potentially partner with a local nonprofit to to grow vegetables and you know donate them or could be used by residents of the the development or broader members of the community in advance to the next so again this is just showing some of the ideas that our land planner joe and others have come up with Wagner Hodgson have come up with for you know how we could really energize and activate these these walking trails and really engage our residents and the broader public into the green spaces we can advance so that's really the end of kind of the high level i know i kind of drove pretty fast there but i figured we'll get through that and then kind of get into the meat of the the staff comments but if any folks have questions or comments right now i'm happy to answer them or if you guys just want to dive into the city comments yeah thank you evan appreciate that um board do you have any um anything you want to say over the general presentation or before we start staff comments i certainly heard a lot that we'll we'll need to get into specifics but perhaps the best course of action is to is to start in where where staff has reviewed and and see how far we get um tonight um so um good starting with the context um going right to um page three um we're talking about 135 homes in a single family duplex and three family dwellings as well as the residence club as we just saw 19 commercial developments we're just talking about this preliminary plat just the homes in the club we're not talking about any of the commercial developments is that right evan yes yep yep okay um so the first comment from the staff is regarding phasing um as you know we like to know when things are planned and and to ensure that they happen in order um staff recommends that we require you to provide a specific proposal for phasing including triggers for specific features to include the recreation path network parkland amenities trail connections to hillside temporary gravel access to the exercise loop the exercise loop itself improvements to the south end of the farm road and traffic improvements including signal installation prior to including the hearing for this application such a proposal should include timing of each element and group elements in a logical manner andrew and evan what's your uh reaction comment yeah i just wanted to to throw out there that we had put together a uh like a powerpoint that we sent to delilah that included these staff comments um and uh as well as it's a different um file but yeah this is the right file so if you guys wanted to just pull that up there's a slide for this comment and every comment um what is it is the comp is the slide reference specific phasing plans in order it does it has the phasing plan on it the the slide does yeah um can we take a look at that delilah possible yeah it's it would be slide three there yeah so andrew and i talked about this and i think that this was pretty helpful at the preliminary plot for um the hillside phase that we heard a few months ago um the one thing that this format doesn't do is it doesn't provide the context of the comment um so typically when we set up the staff comment is there's like a red comment and then above it there is some context so there may need to be a little bit of flipping back and forth um for instance in this one you know the specific comment is what is the phasing but the context is um and maybe this is included this is a bad example but um you know the context is okay you've got all these homes proposed um when does the road get built relative to the homes is what we're trying to get at with not so much like at what date but like how to how do these phases clump in ways that be for a logical development yeah absolutely i mean so i think you know our our sort of take on it was that we had we had created a phasing plan the phasing plan just kind of breaks the project into chunks that would be chunks that you would you would do at at a single point in time uh i don't know you know and to your point we didn't provide a specific order other than to say that we're we're that we're going to start with the metal loop phase uh and then you know to some degree after that the phases would be driven by the market and the demand for the houses within the phases um but i think that to a broader point just stepping back a little bit uh in addition to proposing the the homes and it is accurate to say that there is no commercial development proposed we are proposing sort of the infrastructure and some elements of the commercial development the roadways and things like that and so it is sort of a little bit broader than than just the homes and i think that that's the more challenging piece of the phasing um you know when in particular those front roads or other aspects would would get built in um but i i think that we're certainly able to provide more detail on the phasing um you know and it was helpful to hear staff's comments and you know i i sort of it seems like the focus is primarily on when the the green spaces or public amenities would come online uh relative to the housing and less the concern about what particular road we were putting houses on at a certain point but um you know we're we're happy to provide more detail on that and and can you know either leading up to the final hearing on this or uh you know after we solidified a little bit more of the project there would be sort of a waste to talk talk about when we were going to build a road that ends up getting removed from the plan right or a unit type that gets changed or something like that so i think uh we could certainly provide more on that leading up to the end of the hearing if that makes sense but but we sort we're and i said in the narrative and it's in the staff comments tomorrow's point it's not here you know we are happy to set up trigger for when those things can happen and we'd work with you on on doing that you know i think at hillside there was something you know by the 60th home we'd have to build the park you know things like that are certainly fair game and and so you know i guess what we're saying is we'd provide a proposal as we got to the end of this process and understood exactly what was getting approved and and what was or what was the project was going to look like with a bit more finale that makes sense and i understand okay um the relationship to moving on relationship to the comprehensive plan you know our job is to make sure that this project does indeed comply with the goals of south bulletins comprehensive plan and that we should let the goals and objectives guide our decision in reviewing this project there is a long list of things that with the northeast quadrant northwest and northeast quadrant land use planning areas and old farm road what we need to pay attention to and those are listed in the packet i think that staff comment was just to reiterate that is what we're doing for today and throughout this project regarding transportation and connectivity there was a study done prepared by vhb for the city regarding kibble avenue chili drive land use transportation study the study concluded the following although the full build out of the study area is likely to occur over multiple decades it may never hit the full build out levels evaluated in the study the incremental development approach employed in the study allowed for the identification evaluation of improvements in various phases of development to foster a compact multimodal and mixed use development pattern as shown through the analysis summarizing the support the trips generated under the full build out scenario can be accommodated with the construction of several connector streets moderate intersection upgrades bicycle pedestrian infrastructure improvements and transit enhancements totaling 45 million dollars staff considers the board should let the conclusions of the chili drive study guide their decision making review of this project the discussion regarding each intersection i'll just name them quickly then we'll talk about them the staff recommends the board require the applicant to have a meeting with the traffic consultant and city staff to review the proposed traffic improvements in the context of kimble avenue chili drive study prior to issue e findings on this application and report back to the board is that agreeable evan andrew yeah we're happy to work with the city staff appreciate that incorporate their applications great number five staff also recommends that we invoke third party technical review for compliance with regulations and consistency with the kibble avenue chili drive study project to this size that's pretty standard and i think we were fully expecting that i i guess what our request would be is that once we engage with staff on comparing the trust in the the plan that roger dickinson who's here on the call put together as well as the vhp study that we maybe narrowed down the technical review to the areas that you know we may not be seeing eye to eye on or that need full review as opposed to we're doing the whole analysis if that makes sense okay noted yeah and i i would like to point out that you know the chili drive study came out in November and our application was submitted in August and so we haven't necessarily had the benefit of reviewing that study at this point in time and so i think that the conversation staff and hopefully with the people who did the study and with roger really understand what that study concluded and how it relates to to the project and the work that roger had done on our on our project so so we weren't ignoring the study it just didn't exist at the point that we found their application right got it that makes sense thank you okay uh moving on to relationship and proposed structures to the site matt go ahead go ahead before we move on i just want to ask marla or you should we at this point to the board invoke the technical review or should we go through all these comments first so typically we do need to invoke it as a board in order for after work with the applicants and have the third-party review done do do we do that mark in marla in in terms of a emotion or is that just something we or do it as a motion and i just didn't know if we should do it now or if we should go through any other comments and i guess i'm asking marla um well you guys have read through or at least skimmed the packet um you know if everyone feels like at the four back because i need to do it now or later i don't really have preference very well i'll make a motion that uh we invoke third-party technical review and compliance with regulations and consistency with the kibble avenue till he's tribe study is there a second second by don roll call brian hi don hi mark hi lissa hi and matt votes i chair votes i and it's 500 and there'll be a technical review great thank you for that um thanks mark appreciate that moving on to staff comment number six the relationship but proposed structures to the site the apicus proposing a roadway network to serve the residential in commercial areas the staff recommends that the board limit explicitly limit the findings for the roadways in the commercial areas to the locations of the rights of way access points and the bicycle network in specific circumstances noted while deferring findings on plantings pedestrian movement adequacy of parking for those roadways to such time as the roadway is proposed for construction staff concerns that since no concept of the development of the lot served by future roads has been presented it would be premature to make findings on the adequacy of plantings pedestrian movements or parking in those areas andrew ebb is that agreeable so uh we had put together a picture for this on in our email that we sent you that just called together a couple of different exhibits uh it's on page 10 of that pdf that we had sent um just the this this is the specific road that uh this comments pertaining to lot 28 um you know we have posed 14 duplex townhomes on that road we've proposed a park and a playground on that road as well as a park and so you know we are intending to build the road to access those amenities and so i think we would be seeing a decision on on what that road needs to be be constructed you know that that's not to say that you know if we wanted to not put trees on the side of the road where the commercial buildings are or something i mean i think there's flexibility there but we we do need to build that road so so we would need some sort of approval that would allow for that i think we're open to you know suggestions on what that looks like but but you know those homes are part of the project marla is that is that your i'm trying to marry this the comment with the with Andrew's response is that making sense yeah so um this comment was about the road that andrew points out but also about the roads in the industrial commercial zone on the left hand side of the page i'm just going to grab so over here right and up here um so it's not it's about those and about the one that andrew's pointing out um i think farther in can you draw the which one andrew's pointing out that i can see it oh clearly okay got it yeah um sorry i've spent countless hours on this plan um so you'll see later in the staff comments that there's a lot of questions about this road um that andrew's got all his yellow arrows pointing to as well um and i perhaps this is something where the board wants to make partial findings on this road but some of the staff comments um that you'll see later on actually question whether it's appropriate to approve what they're proposing on this road since it's only sort of half-blushed out as andrew said they're proposing one side of the road but we don't have any concepts of what's going on on the other side of the road um so maybe we should i don't know i guess what i'm saying is maybe we should defer um what to do about this road that andrew's pointing to till later andrew what are your feelings about the suggested approach for the roads over on the left hand side of the screen yeah i think i mean our our perspective is that you know the road in the ic district is a road that we're proposing for construction and so it's difficult for us to propose a project that doesn't allow us to build the thing um and so you know that the ic lots in our in our presentation in our preliminary flat are very much proposed as a traditional subdivision you know so there are areas of the city where this has happened right like meadowlands business park or tilley drive where they did a subdivision they built a road and then they sold to people who had businesses that wanted to be on those lots and that is our intent for the ic road but andrew just to clarify the reason for building the roads in the ic now as opposed to later when you have a proposal to create a building there is because why well it creates it creates marketable shovel lots which are which are you know available for for purchase and for building right you know and what you know we have a response to the ic road you know i think what i pointed out was that there are regulations uh that pertain to subdivision that describe what the road should be and we would be fully able to meet those requirements we haven't requested waivers in that area one time some of the set was that we were required to have a recreation path on that road and so we put it there and so you know our our perspective would be that we'll build the road in full compliance with the zoning regulations you know and we would look to you guys to help if there was something that was you know that we could improve but we are intending to build the roads that are shown i guess is the response and you know it it's not to say that they can't be altered uh in the future to suit to sue to you and obviously that's something that we're taking that if we go to build something that needs to change a part of it that that would be you know us doing that and and you know it would be the case that we'd be open to any sort of creative solution that would allow for the roads to be built you know sort of maybe some of these potentially these other characteristics or defer them to a later date but which would still allow for that initial construction and so so here's my here's my dumb question so Marla can you can you build the roads and then and then put in the requirements for plantings pedestrian movement or parking at the time that they proposed the building for the commercial area or is that not in the correct order i mean i think it'd be very difficult to do that could but you know people are very reluctant to disturb what they have already built and so you know my concern is do we know if there should be on street parking do we know if the sidewalk should be a rec path or a sidewalk do we know where the driveway should be and i don't know maybe some some of the board members who put on the board a little bit longer um have seen examples where there's some flexibility built in for those things but those are my concerns okay thanks you started about you mark when she said been on there for a while okay do you remember any of the commercial developments where where this happened where they built out the roads and then and then programmed it later with trees and sidewalks and pedestrian paths i mean obviously there's plenty of examples where we've had issues you know park is one where we you know they built out the road and then they had to come back later and you know work on you know all the street trees and the street lighting wasn't even installed you know i guess one if it's planned out and sort of i know you can work we don't want to pre-plan it because market conditions but i think if you know we well we've typically asked for the test to show what could be done so that you know we don't have issues down the road where they say oh you know well we can't do this this or this because of the way it's been built you know i think a test and a design typically works pretty well you know and allows for some flexibility down the road so like a proof of concept yeah you know and and we've we've definitely asked for that and it shows that it can be done and then it can be done properly but it doesn't require them to get the formal approvals that lock them into something okay yeah i mean i think that that's a reasonable request i mean we have done a concept proof i mean that is what's rendered in this photo um you know we provide engineered drawings or two-dimensional drawings of that just because it seemed like it was going to muddy the water to be but certainly if it's helpful you know we could lay that out on a on a conceptual plan and share it you know lay this out with with an in 2d so that you guys could see you know sort of what it looks like uh you know a little bit clearer and and just kind of stepping back to 30 000 feet you know this preliminary plan i think i think it's talked about in the staff comments maybe at the beginning you know we had simultaneously approached the the project as a master plan and preliminary plat review and then abandoned the master plan because it sort of can sort of been in a lot of senses but but you know that the idea that we don't know if a road should have a rec path or a sidewalk on it that's the whole idea of what we're we're trying to do here now with you guys is to pick where those recs are going and where those sidewalks are going to create the infrastructure the green space the connectivity and the development areas so that in the future it's just like the phase one multifamily project where you come in and the parks there the the things are there and you're just approving you know essentially site plan uh and that's really what we're driving towards and and it is absolutely um complicated at this scale but you know the the flip side of not doing that is is a piecemeal project that comes in one little sliver at a time and so i think our perspective is let's put in the work and and let's get you what you need to get comfortable with it and so if that's you know a 2d concept we're happy to get it over there okay thank you and yeah i think that's what we're hearing good um okay so let's talk about the transitions um between the neighbor the project um with the roads the roadways well should we start with the Kimball Avenue and Kennedy Drive epic is posing five lanes at the intersection of Kimball and Kennedy where three lanes exist today city goals do not support the intersection widening without careful consideration Kimball Tilly Drive land use and transportation study identifies no need for widening at this intersection tell us a little bit about this intersection and why you propose five lanes yeah i can um i can uh maybe defer to roger on i i just would say to start that um while the the traffic study that roger completed had noted that our full buildout might require five lanes we had in fact in our narrative said that we were going to stop short of that because we felt like it was not appropriate uh you know given the the goals that we knew of the city and we had sort of had conversations with staff about it and so we were able to get our suspicion was that that by connecting the ic road to Tilly Drive that it would relieve enough traffic that that improvement would no longer be merited but we have proved that out yet but i could let roger speak a little bit more to how how that that conclusion that that was merited came about and whether the Tilly Drive connector might might fix it certainly uh thank you manager uh so this uh Kimball and Kennedy is is today a very busy intersection even without the project it does receive Kimball Avenue is a really heavily traveled roadway uh in and out of South Burlington linking to the east to Welliston and this intersection really is somewhat of a uh is actually the primary access point for the east view development uh this is where we're going to see most of the project generated trips uh uh using this intersection so again we uh our analyses was we're done without the benefit of the the Kimball Avenue Tilly Drive study that just became available uh then there are a number of assumptions in that study just from a quick review of it that you know basically you know in the form of the connector roadways Swiss Street extension Tilly Drive connection and others that would actually divert traffic away from this this intersection and help manage uh future traffic conditions at it so though we're hopeful that uh you know perhaps we take a second look at this and and discuss in discussions with the city staff uh and EHB uh we can uh come up with a little bit better uh or less intrusive uh uh plan of improvements for this intersection yeah just to to sort of uh add a little bit to what roger said i you know it's funny when roger did this traffic study i just remember getting uh you know like it was like a million questions that roger had uh in order to sort of do the study and i think that a lot of those questions we answered in sort of the most conservative way possible and so the view of the study was assume nothing else in the city is it happens other than our project what do we need to do to the existing infrastructure to make it work uh and and so intervening variables like the connection to Tilly Drive you know our our premise was well we know if that's going to happen we don't control Tilly Drive and so therefore we need to understand what would happen if Tilly Drive never gets built and our project is progressing because we're progressing it and so i think those compromises and those conversations are the piece that that staff is recommending that we get into and and i think it can change a lot of these recommendations just based on on sort of all of those various assumptions that that are baked into the analysis yeah just to reiterate that when we appreciate that you know the the city and staff's recommendation is to take a more holistic kind of all-encompassing view of it because obviously this is not happening in a vacuum but again to reiterate Andrew and roger's point we had to provide something that was within our control so we took a conservative attack but we're happy to work with staff and quite honestly scale it back if possible so so what i'm hearing is that where you propose five lanes we may stick with three uh to be determined yeah no i yes yes okay so we'll do our best to work with the applicant um and make some presentations to the board on um you know what makes most sense is there any feedback the board has on sort of the intersections on the outskirts i know we're only on the first one Kimball and Kennedy but you know the other comments stepped through Kimball and Old Farm Road kinds of road and Old Farm Road you know i think we all agree that we'll be looking at these more closely in the context of the Tilly Drive study so maybe the remainder of our conversation about these purple dots um can be you know what feedback the board has to for for us to look into as we're looking at these purple dots does that make sense uh yeah that makes sense to me Marla what of these five key or four key intersections what do you think needs the most is it the Old Farm Road study that needs the most direction from the board i think probably the first one we started with is the one that needs the least so Kimball and Kennedy it's fairly a traffic question um and then we go to Kimball I have an Old Farm Road this is where they're realigning the roadway um the board had some feedback and sketch about what that intersection should look like it's sort of originally proposed it as a boulevard kind of thing um now i believe it's more of just a row of regular row maybe with some turnleams on it um i guess we can talk about all of Old Farm Road and holistically because two three four are all really Old Farm Road thing so Kim so Kimball Avenue Old Farm Road that's a redesigned that's a beautiful design road Old Farm Road with a with a signal that is not currently there of course right right um Heinsberg Road and Old Farm Road uh that's that turn in there um and then the only change proposed there was the addition of a right turn lane onto Heinsberg Road which that that concurred with so i think that at that particular intersection we were aligned yeah so on Old Farm Road turning right to go uh north onto Heinsberg Road that's where the yeah that makes sense that's what the engineers say that makes sense to me because i'm not a junior um and then Old Farm Road itself traffic studies not specifically address calming measures um staff recommends the board require the applicant to make the gateway a two-way incorporate detailed design into the civil engineering plans at the next stage of review and the bike and ped committee did take a look at this and there are some comments there um about the shared youth path. I just spent some time on like Old Farm Road i'm sure the um yeah i've prepared a lot to say because the staff comments were extensive about this um yeah so do you want to walk us through the traffic calming or are you talking about the the the two at the entrance and the exit or whatever both all three you want to Kevin kindre how do you want to go through Old Farm Road you want to start at one end or the other well so i mean yeah so we we can you know that i think the two intersections are fairly easy uh one we we agreed at the at the Heinsberg Road all farm road intersection that a right turn lane made sense that that's to be warranted that's a sketch of it there you can see the the addition of it uh at the north end the traffic light um you know that there was i think i think there's some remnants of the fact that roger had designed the five lanes at kennedy drive in how wide the intersection at Old Farm and Kimball is i think that's going to be able to be narrowed down and we're going to meet with you guys as requested and and figure that out so i think that's sort of stable and and we're happy to take a look at that to your point we did remove the median that was proposed in the middle of that road uh there was feedback from a neighbor who owns the complex across the street it was john wilking at the last hearing at the sketch plan hearing about the alignment of the and uh and not aligning with the existing you know driveways to the business complex and so we redesigned Old Farm Road to align with that and part of that redesign median just didn't work out with how the new the new lots laid out you know to the point earlier you know we've spent a lot of time and jose on the the line can attempt how many hours we've spent making sure that we're not putting something in that isn't going to work for future use or future development and it just wasn't it just wasn't working it was too wide and it was harrowing the lots and it was restricting access and just became problematic and so we had taken that median out there were also some concerns forward about safety and what if people turn in the wrong way um you know and it as a landscape price but we we just didn't want to get bogged down on that so so we did take that out and that to the larger point of the entirety of Old Farm Road we prepared a lot of material for this hearing details about the the sort of traffic calming and Old Farm Road itself really were not one of those things and the reason was that there's so much up in the air right now that we felt like it was it was challenging to sort of say what are the what's your specific pedestrian and traffic calming and and bike sort of accommodating Old Farm Road proposal without sort of understanding what was being approved where the access points were whether the Meadow Loop Road was going to be there or or somewhere else if we were going to have to have a four-way intersection or add an intersection and so i think we just wanted to get a little bit further into the the conversation really after this hearing we might be in a place where where that makes sense to sort of move into doing but but we hadn't provided it and so you know in the presentation that we sent you guys that it said that we would engage a professional consultant to facilitate expert with expertise to safely facilitate pedestrian and vehicle movement but we believe the preliminary plat findings are integral to the success of that design and so i guess what we would say is is either we would propose to provide those details toward the end of the preliminary plat hearing maybe prior to closing the hearing or you know ideally at the final plat level but we would like to sort of better understand the entirety of the project because the Old Farm Road really is the center of of what we're proposing and so i think understanding all the connection points and the development is is sort of critical to that design well what's the what's the downside of Marla of dealing with the traffic calming and some of the other measures at final rather than traffic calming is a bit of a red herring it's in the first sentence as we talk about Old Farm Road but then the comments about Old Farm Road under that same heading going to you know the bike and pet committee has extensive comments recommending a recreation path all the way along Old Old Farm Road you know there's comments about whether there should be parking on the road i think one thing we talked about it sketches that traffic calming is not it can be retrofit but it's better when it's a function of good design and so you know there's a question about staff comment number nine what is the typical cross section of Old Farm Road what does it look like how does the interface between the homes and the rec path and the sidewalk and the parking and the street trees and everything create traffic calming you know in my opinion is that this is a really important thing to address because as Andrew just said it's the backbone of the project you know exactly where those connections are i think can be malleable within the framework of what Old Farm Road looks like so so we absolutely want to talk about the proposal of the park the rec committee for the the bike path i think that's an example of a thing that's critical to understanding prior to developing the level of detail about the road that we're sort of talking about right so if we had developed details of the pedestrian amenities of Old Farm Road and spent all that time doing that and then a bike path was required but we had had bike lanes and this and that it would become just sort of a wasted effort right and those are the pieces that i'm sort of saying let's let's dial those in we understand is this a sidewalk or is this a rec path are these homes set back five feet or 10 feet or 15 feet or the 40 feet that might be required if we don't get the waiver is the alley access going to be approved or are those homes going to have driveways that enter Old Farm Road because the alley is too narrow or the the the coverage isn't right i think that those are the sort of questions that without understanding it makes it really difficult to paint a picture of what Old Farm Road is going to look like it's sort of a chicken and egg problem i i think we're happy to deal with it at preliminary plat it just might sort of drag on you know i think it would be at the end that it would be appropriate but but also preliminary plat isn't approving a project and so you know we can also provide those details at final plat and and have you know a real part of that approval so either way but but certainly things like the rec path we're here to talk about and we did prepare some materials for that in what we had submitted earlier so this is dawn um somewhere in your staff report marla you talked about wanting to a view this as a transportation system or network um and it sounds to me like what andrew was saying is that they have to have a sense of what we think is an appropriate system before they begin to put more details into it is does that am i getting this right andrew there's another way of saying it yes um shorter i think i think that makes sense to me i mean i it is a chicken and egg um but i kind of get that you can't put the details in until you have the the high level view of what the structure of the transportation system will be and yes the work so we're not pushing back at all on the fact that we need the details we want to do that we want to do that work and edit to you guys i think it's it's it's just that over let's if we could even circle back to this you know at the end of tonight or potentially at the end of the next hearing we might have i might be able to say i think we've got enough that we can you know but but for instance that you know if we want to move on to so the bike and pedestrian comments that you know key piece of of what this road looks like yeah what uh that's a good idea um can someone give me a better explanation of what a sheriff's looks like or vehicle lanes i don't know if we have a picture of that great joke question or vehicle lanes are shared by the bicycles and vehicles they're called a sheriff um i'm sure i've seen one before i'm just not picture right on the screen so it's like these things with the picture yeah a double a bicycle i think if you've been by the new hanna ferds um matt you would have seen this the new hanna ferds has one of these they do they are typically put in the travel lane and the purpose of them is to uh inform of everyone that the the travel lane is a shared lane to be shared with bicyclists bicycle traffic but yeah that's that's pretty good representation of what they look like i used to teach a class on building bicycles and we made the students learn how to draw a bicycle or if you've been in burlington on pine street close to the feldmans bagels south woneski avenue uh also i'm sorry north woneski avenue okay no yeah no i know it's sometimes they're painted green is that right yes yep okay past corners has some so so what you're saying excuse me what the bike and pet committee is recommending is that do we have share roles rather than a parallel bike lines is that is that do i have that right i think that the bike and pet committee is recommending that there be a off-road bike half within the right of way but not shared and if that is not doable then share roles are better than bike lanes but they they many of their staff many of their comments i would say 50 of their two pages of comments are recommending me off-road bike path on hold on road so is that helpful andrew as you prepare to come back yes the west side recreation path connection you know we've we've taken a look at and honestly probably everything it's funny that you know so many of the comments that we get back are things that we've been wrestling with for three years you know but but we've looked at this and so if you answer the next slide that we've provided the lila you can see this is the sort of arrows still there that's great the you can see the the the sort of existing rec path that we've been building in hillside in red you can see the proposed rec paths that we did already in the project in yellow and you can see the rec path request from the bike and pedestrian committee in blue the purple line is a rec path that's part of the current city recreation impact for the ordinance and so i think that that the city's been sort of collecting funds to construct that connection between eldridge street and chili drive since at least 2014 and so there is an off-street you know rec path connection point for area that would get you to another rec path that would cut you over to kimble avenue where the blue line is located if you sort of advance the slide again i think we had scott put together a quick to short sort of show you the impact on existing houses of this proposal and it's pretty stark honestly you know this rec path move of you know fences parking in people's front yards next to their garages i mean you're within a few feet of the fronts of people's garages with this and so you know we we would rather you know look to accommodate bike traffic with the shadows or with some sort of on-road facilities that would preserve the character of old farm road i think you know i'm not sure how many of our neighbors are are on the call but i think there's there's not that many and i think that's a testament to the fact that we've been incredibly concerned with keeping them on board through this process because this is an impactful development for them and and this would be something that i think you know could hurt that relationship i think that people would not be thrilled with this proposal if you go to the next slide i've got some screenshots of where the the rec path would actually be going just a little bit more color so here you can see that's the the first home nearest to heinsberg road in the upper left and you can see the the brand new trees they've just ended for screening you can also see the recycling cans and mailbox and behind that is like a beautiful new white picket fence that would also fill the rec path uh at the at the one on the right you can see that they're using that area for parking their cars you can also see the structure of their garage which is immediately to the left of the car and the bottom right picture you can see the garage with the parking for their cars that would be where the rec path was running and in the bottom left you can see the driveway that's sort of a horseshoe has some natural screening and a buffer that they've planted which would also be removed this would be putting a recreation path essentially through these people's driveways you know which is is why we're looking to accommodate things in the road right Andrew these are the this well this is this property right is this the road um the city right of way i think that's the rec so the red in between the red Scott could this might yeah no i know that's the rec path at the city the right path and the uh the that would be probably two or three feet inside the right one so this is the yeah this is the right away that's the right away yeah i just didn't extend the line all the way no so probably city right away is along here absolutely and so you know that that is 100 true that that it could be built in the right of way it also just would be very impactful to the existing neighborhood matt can i ask a question sure yep so this is showing a sort of a rec path bike path on the north side of old farm which looks like it would create the most amount of impact what about the idea of doing it on the south side of old farm where the houses are set further back and you wouldn't have as much of an impact on sort of existing single family use you know the directly adjacent old farm yeah there's a overhead power running up that side of the road okay so the right of way has has telephone poles and overhead power sort of you know if you go to the next slide you can see the the road itself i believe there's a picture that'll show you like the the poles and things i think i just i i'm not sure why the recommendation was for the west side but i i think it might have something to do with the complexity of getting the path around those those telephone poles okay and i think we wanted to point this picture out to sort of to the character of the road at that entrance that you know sort of clearing that that swath for the the path would be opening this up i'm just going to say as someone who walks old farm frequently maybe not frequently enough but um it it would break my heart to see some of that vegetation taken down because it's part of the beauty of that road it feels very treed and leafy and um and i can't imagine those homeowners would be thrilled yeah the other side but i just wanted a second with dawn's uh you know as i i i've only haven't been there as many times but last time i was there i remember thinking i feel like i'm on an old farm road i actually do i i um so i would i would see i would not want to move that vegetation either yeah i mean the others the flip side of them that is you know that that existing vegetation on either side of the this little narrow two-lane road which is an old farm road which essentially is a cut through between kimble and mines but right now with a few houses on it we're putting one of the largest developments in south burlington right smack dab as an access point to there so i think you know putting the correct infrastructure in you know while doing the best we can to minimize that it should be the the goal here because you know you put several hundred houses up at the end of this little nice meandering road with vegetation on heavily on both sides no one's going to walk it because your traffic is going to increase and it's going to become far more you know vehicular because right now the beauty is that there's only a few cars on it from time to time right that makes sense well i think you know our perspective would be that there there would be a you know we've proposed sidewalks and and sort of uh connections and pedestrian amenities until that gateway to so if you look at the at the plan you know we we have proposed uh infrastructure and we've proposed this gateway feature that marlowe was talking about earlier which sort of would be a transition point from the existing character of the road preserving the beauty of these homes that are in existence on the road have and then sort of creating an opening into the new development which is undoubtedly going to look dramatically different but we did propose that breaking point and you know the city certainly has a right of way and and could certainly run infrastructure down there i think you know a rec path you know if you go back a couple of slides you see that there's a rec path a thousand feet away that also runs from heinsberg to kimble avenue and so you know a rec path is isn't the only the only form of you know safe pedestrian communication so i think changes we could look at that might be less impactful and and still preserve that yeah another consideration here is that while we are obviously planning on adding a lot of homes you know accessing off old farm road the earlier discussion about you know traffic calming measures you know the intent is to keep this a you know kind of a low speed residential road and then to have the additional outlet right i mean right now people are using old farm road as a cut through because there isn't another option and so that's that north south road that's running through the mixed ic district to connect to tilly which i think is that release valve that the city has always planned for in their official map in which we are replicating here so you know the goal is not to have this be to develop this road as a high speed cut through it's it's actually to to to tamp that down even though we're adding homes on it and so having a shallow type use as opposed to an off street bike path i don't think is incongruous to what we're proposing here even though we are adding more homes on it am i correct in saying that you are not proposing any improvements beyond the limits of the project on south fun old farm road uh sorry no let me rephrase that am i correct in saying that you're not proposing any sidewalk or off road bike facilities south of the project area at this time okay that that's correct and what was proposed currently oh yeah in terms of the the bike and ped south of the project yes so good mark well i was just going to say that that's a little concerning to me and i'd like to get better input from bike and ped in terms of pedestrian especially pedestrian circulation because you know now you have the what is it the red barn market in delhi you know right at the intersection now of old farm in heinsberg and you know so i have to imagine there's going to be quite a bit of you know pedestrian flow from this neighborhood down there because i imagine after covid and the pandemic's over it's going to become sort of like the cider mill you know where you can go and get a creamy in the summer grab you know some some food or some you know some drinks kids are going to want to go there in the summertime um and it's concerning that if there's no sort of pedestrian improvements south of the project on old farm that you know now you're sort of walking on the road again and no i don't want to promote sort of like any kind of you know high speed cut through because that's you know the the speed tables are great on old farm because when i do use it you know i am very respectful of the fact that i am using it as a cut through and there's neighbors and you know you know peter through there 20 miles an hour and i don't want to do anything that would you know aggravate that but i think we do need to look at some good pedestrian flow and ability for movement from the neighborhood out to heinsberg and tilly and that sort of area could could we suggest this what why don't we um you know because i i i'd certainly hear what you're saying and appreciate that and maybe there's a a more creative solution we can work with joe from dsp to to maybe present some options on that front that that sort of maintains the integrity of that you know south end of old farm road doesn't encroach upon the neighbor's yards but maybe provides that bike pet access to the the tilly drive area i think that's a great recommendation evan yeah yeah we're not going to solve it tonight but you kind of get the sense of where the board's going with it so i think that's a good good idea i think we would have a pitchfork bearing mob coming after us with with the the rec path cutting very close to those homes on the west side of old farm road okay well maybe you can get together with your team and the next time around talk about what what an alternative would be to to accommodate pedestrian bike travel sure um okay staff coming number eight um staff recommends the board acquire the applicant to provide a greater number of parallel parking spaces to act as guest parking for residents as the residential streets have limited or no on-street parking um which how are you feeling about parking i have to say i did not understand this nor did i understand the next comment so if you can't park on the street how can you have parallel parking i was there a slide and bring up for that um what am i missing marlon well that that's exactly the point you can't park on the street but so then where are you going to park and so we're suggesting that there should be on-street parking but you are suggesting that there be on-street parking yes okay i didn't get that okay thanks so we had you know we had proposed a certain number of on-street spaces i think you know we're happy to look at the number of spaces that we proposed um you know a long old farm road is sort of the um the easiest place to to propose them because it doesn't have any an impact on coverage because old farm road is an existing city redway so the coverage isn't project calculation had highlighted in the slides that we sent you marlos feedback that you know the site coverage is is maxed out and so adding coverage anywhere requires removing it somewhere else and so that has figured into the amount of parallel parking that we've provided um on on for instance legacy farm avenue again i would say you know we don't have an objection to parallel parking um and and we don't necessarily disagree with staff's comment it just seems like something that we could we should sort of confirm is adequate once we've sort of confirmed what the layout of the houses it are i i mean i i guess another way to look at would be to feel really positive that if we're talking about the parking being adequate then we've sort of solidified the layout of all the houses and the number of units and where they are so maybe that's the message that we should be taking away but i think our perspective would be if we understand you know in broad brush that the project is is you know that the things that we've shown are are looking good to you all then we can assess you know whether there's enough parking in our opinion for that use and certainly look at adding some you know to to accommodate what what you guys would think would be feasible i can say that every unit has you know a two-car garage and and space for two cars in their driveway we also have a clubhouse facility that has you know 20 or 30 odd parking spaces and we've proposed a number of street spaces maybe marla has the number in her comment but maybe 20 or 30 on street spaces in the neighborhood we've also provided in the alleyway for a lot 31 you know an additional third space for each of the homes in addition to the two-car garage we certainly that parking is required and and you know what we have provided not and not an extreme amount of parking at hillside and it has not caused a you know a great deal of problems there don't could you maybe speak to your experience on that well i think it's been a challenge because there are parking spaces down on what used to be eldridge street and that's now old farm road but for people visiting on the the townhomes that's it's not a long walk but if you're carrying things it's inconvenient so but you're right most of us have to we have two car garages and plenty of space in the driveway but there are still times when parking on the street i know i break the rule and do it okay or my guests do it's not ideal but i don't know what the answer is and i think that's that's probably a pretty good description of the situation which is that 90 of the time it's fine and then it's that 10 one year you're inconvenienced a little bit i mean there is parking but it is a little bit of a walk it's so the question is the balances do we over build for the 10 of the time or do we plan for the 90 of the time but can i go back to what i think i heard from andrew at the beginning which is you have a concern about coverage with uh if you provide parallel parking did i hear that right andrew yeah we well we absolutely have a concern about coverage uh i mean this particular zoning district is incredibly light on coverage and i think it's something that is uh sort of uh harkens back to the older older style of r1 development which was you know big lots big homes and and not all of these bike paths and rec paths i mean we might have Scott might know off hand but i assume we have an acre plus of coverage that is exclusively rec paths and sidewalks and and so it might be it might be twice that and and you know it's it's those amenities you know they take up the number and the percentage is is low in the r1 district so it is a consideration and it's a balancing act but we are i mean we're open to to adding spaces uh and and trying to make it work and so i think if the feedback is try and find some more you know we can do that i don't want to be clear andrew you said yourself old farm road is a city right of way so it doesn't affect your coverage yeah and that's that's a hundred percent true and and i think you know we can certainly look more at old farm road i i think we have a little bit of a concern and maybe it's just that we need to put some more thought into it but that if you put too much parallel parking on the road and people aren't parked in it it would make the road feel wider and it wouldn't help with the the tighter more traffic calming you know presence and so maybe there's maybe there's a way to get around that but i think that was a concern of ours that if we had parallel park on two sides of old farm road now all of a sudden it's a it's a 40-foot wide road and you know that or 34 i don't know what it would be but that that could be sort of impactful as well yeah but the thing is that if you were to provide parallel parking on old farm you know you could do like the bump outs you know especially where you have pedestrian crossings so that you know rather than crossing a four lane road or a three lane road you're still in the crossing two lane and you're still getting that narrowing down which is a traffic calming advice as well and providing some parallel parking for overflow guest parking and it's actually also a natural traffic calming as well if you have cars parked on the road you know parallel spots so i think that this goes to staff's comment about you know looking at the big picture overall streetscape design work that i i don't recommend pushing it off to final i think we definitely want to address it here so that you know we don't get it locked in you know you don't want to be doing final engineering additional engineering during design phase so i think you know right i would throw it out that you you should look at it with the same type of sensitivity and further design aesthetics that you're going to be looking at the issue of south of old farm between the development and pines work road to see how it all ties together because you know the the the term god and devil is in the details you know how does this project all come together you know with the traffic calming the you know the benches the little greens areas you know the overall layout you know i really think works and is nice but until you get the the final details worked out which i know you don't want to do till you get to final because details and working things out are just soft costs but i think you have to spend some time on it to bring the projects up to the point where it makes sense to us as a board and staff and the subcommittees when they take a look at it yeah we i think it's totally reasonable and we do have some concepts that incorporate some of what you just discussed mark so i think you know between us and our consultants we can come up with some ideas for the next meeting to present haven't i just point something out real quick on is that i just want to make sure people realize that we are proposing some parallel spots on old farm road already i think there's about 20 and realistically we can probably only add eight or 10 more we're not we're not talking about the difference between you know 10 and 100 here we're talking about maybe eight or 10 more spots at the most just want to make that point okay thank you for that um and mark go ahead oh i was just gonna say you know i think i think hearing mark's point that you know the the layout and the you know the intersections and things look good i think is is helpful in order to sort of make that leap i mean we have not you know although we've we've we've had this application you know we've been working on this for a long time we haven't you know we haven't gotten feedback from you guys until tonight and so you know it we can get through this hearing and we have a little bit more comfort that this layout is is you know looking good overall it makes it easier to get into those details and to try and and hash that out so you keep asking about the layout delilah if you could show the picture from the staff comments i believe it's the top of page eight it's just sort of an overall plan that we've exerted from their plans that has some purple numbers on it um you know homes are homes face streets you're going to have the streets and then you're going to put the homes along the street um and the location of those streets is going to dictate what homes fit where what is it that you're looking for feedback on about the homes that is not tied to the street before you can think about the location of the street i think it's it's in general you know the the we've proposed a one-way alley connection for those homes on lap 31 it seems like from staff feedback but that's you know that that that came off well um you know that's one area where certainly the alternative from loading different style units is impactful you know the intersections between meadow loop and old farm road didn't align that was a concern sounds like that's that's not a concern you know we've proposed a cottage court and a certain cottage you know unit alignment and driveways and intersections now those relate to the street we've got a a setback we were looking for an adjustment to the to the actual right of way on old farm road in order to be able to put the meadow loop homes where they're shown i think they're only one foot from the right of way and so the you know it would end up needing to be that the right of way was reduced by four feet in order to accommodate that which we would do in conjunction with moving the right of way at the north end of the project um you know because we already have to go through the whole process of altering is anyway but you know that was done in order to preserve the space between the hillside homes and the new homes that are proposed uh and you know we could certainly reduce the rear yard setback but we felt like up the presence of the homes to old farm road was beneficial for for all the reasons we've been talking traffic and everything else so you know we could push those units back another five feet maybe five feet further from the edge of old farm road and and it would reduce that sort of village feeling you know or if the board was supportive of it i'm sure that you know reducing the right of way by three or four feet or whatever it is you know wouldn't be an issue given that it's you know i think it's a 60-foot right of way and a 20-foot road so so matt sorry i know you're not the same person andrew just solicited five things that they'd like to be back on um i don't know that every single one of those five things is explicit in the staff comments um he asked about the alley um the intersections of the metal loop the cottage court um the step back requests and the sort of couch with the old farm road right of way and then the alignment of old farm road would it make sense to just step through those things rather than just go a little bit off script or do you want to really stick to the shirt no that's fine um can we take them in chunks here what should we what should we start with and is there a better page for me to show this on because if i zoom in on this this drawing yeah absolutely so delilah if you would go to exhibit five e there that's where that page came from and you can actually go to sheet eight i believe it is um and that one should never be blurry no matter how much you zoom in but i've memorized what page all of these things are on okay delks give me a second to share it exhibit five f also is pretty helpful it's the master plan that sort of shows okay let me get that one open so i can flip between it before i go into the next one five f got it okay so that's open if we need to go into that let's go there this first one five e so which intersection do we want well maybe just take a picture the smallest picture you want to start with the realignment of old farm road that makes sense in here yeah sure i mean that it seems like like that's been generally viewed positively i'm not sure if the work if it needs just looking at the rest of the agenda for tonight is pretty extensive but i think that we reoriented that to align with the property i think it sounds like like generally that's sort of okay there's not there wasn't any feedback on it i don't believe so other than to work on the intersection which we can do does the board okay with this yeah this this this makes a lot of sense to me to redirect the road and uh it'll make the intersection especially those that are that are just going around kimble avenue i mean to alignment makes it seem like it would work functionally much better but so then i mean the other major thing you know we had added the cottage cluster we added and and we sort of moved the roads we used to have the two roads you're looking at right now meadow loop and legacy farm intersecting out of four way and we had gotten feedback that that that was awkward because the hillside road that you can see at the top right was so close to the corner and and there was like a 20 foot retaining wall that was going to be needed there because they were so different in elevation and so we we changed those orientations around we aligned the other end of meadow loop with the parking entrance for the barn amenity and you know and then if you zoom in to the meadow loop units the the triplex is you can see that they're sort of right on the edge of the right of way so this this was like they sort of kind of like pull in and create like a little central green and then kind of come out toward the right of way and we we just really you know that was all intentional for the streetscape but you know some of those homes at the far right and far left are you know one foot or so back from the right way line which the board is not allowed to issue a waiver of less than five feet this application is unique in that we have to go change the right of way for old farm road anyway because we're moving the other end and we have to get the you know the right of way released and the land you know I'm not a hundred percent sure of the convoluted process but I'm sure we're going to be going through it anyway and so our our thought was well why not just reduce the right of way in this area by by a couple of feet so that this layout would work you know and the alternative is is easy enough we can push it back but if you kind of pull up the page a little bit you can see where the existing hillside homes are and so you know we're already requesting I think setback waivers rear yard setback waivers so just pushing that back another four or five feet you know it just you just wanted to try and avoid that same just went through a whole bunch of different things um so the board did have a lot of feedback that sketch about the sort of ends of metal loop and legacy farm as um how's everybody feeling about it now so pardon me I have some questions so metal loop the the bottom structures are triplexes correct is that correct yes for the most part yes and then across metal loop are single family homes yes correct okay um but where there was a that was talked about was that for the metal loop homes where there would be space between the home and the garage or is that another area that was a different um in the comments do you mean that was that was the alley lot on lot 31 okay all right good sorry I was confused okay thanks so the the backs of the triplexes will be facing old farm road as we we've designed the homes to essentially have two fronts to them and so while they're they're the garages are accessed off the loop road they have a very kind of you know street facing presence on old farm road because that is really the pedestrian experience but we also didn't want the elevation of the home facing the loop road to just be kind of a service entrance because you've got other homes on the other side facing them so that's what I was okay so we passed our architects basically in land planners with coming up with essentially a two-sided home that's attractive on both sides I think we've been successful thank you and I'm gonna stop and just that this is Jill from VSP Design one of the reasons why we're so close to the old farm right away is is that it was important for us to include front porches and the more traditional style along old farm road which pushed us close to the existing right away so you know part of the part of the the whole reason of that the the look and feel of old farm road was the front porches and kind of the the old-fashioned more neo-traditional style Joe do you want to pull that up yes you know kind of backing up too because there's you know we don't necessarily you know if nothing is coming to mind for folks we don't want to necessarily go looking for for things to change but well we can defer discussion of the architecture so later okay with the general concept of these things I think Don's point is one that we didn't mention in the staff comments that these are type lists facing single family homes but the alignment is dramatically different of metal loop and legacy from before as well yeah I like this I like this alignment better I like how it comes out and then it goes right to the the the parking of the barn amenity I don't know if we've talked about what we've had to do with the with the ledge or the the drop off there at lot 16-14 area if that's changed significantly since sketch um but is that going to be a problem area we spent a lot of time talking about that corner of metal loop no it's uh we've we put those cottages there and I think they're um I think that that's squared away what was the issue I'm not at all what was the issue at sketch that we that we that took so long though we spent so much time with that that corner I think if I draw on it um the road was more like this and so the question was you know if the road is going to be this far apart from one another why not connect them um so what they've done is I want it back and that doesn't look like it wants to be connected right yeah that's better that's better and again by virtue of doing that we also created a space for this new concept which are the cottages that we work with staff on on creating uh is that 16 16 18 17 19 is that your time about them yeah so it's it's basically a you know smaller footprints just smaller homes that um we think that there is a market segment for you know we don't know how big that market segment is but it's sort of akin to like the Kirby cottage look yeah oh absolutely yeah well I think you know the it seems like there's some sort of broad agreement sort of things that are aligned on old farm road and that the focus should shift to sort of road itself looks like and how it relates to those things and so I think we're I think we're able to sort of work on that and um you know we we can add it to the list of additional information to provide um so going back to your list of five things so we've talked about the metal loop intersections you've noted that there's a cottage core I think we should just revisit the architecture when we get to that but in terms of it being there I'm not hearing any concern about it being the thing um you know I'm in a bold front but farm road sounds like four to be favorable on that um you asked about this set back um what's the board's flavor on what they're trying to do with having creating this like wave effect of the front of the homes along old farm road so the setback is like for like 24 25 26 yeah so you can get back here really close yeah and then over at 2024 2025 yeah it's it's literally like a foot as drawn um you know like I said it can be you know it can be shifted but it creates a rear yard setback reduction on 16-14 and 13 right which is in the end of the world you know I think it provides some interest to that area I think that would be a very interesting look it obviously you know gives some room for landscaping in features like that in the middle and I believe there's also a pathway through in the middle of 20-14 and 20-15 there's a sidewalk connection that runs all the way through what's the distance from the porch in like 20-6 so it looks like your full front porch or whatever your back front porch um to the the roadway there oh the distance to the roadway is is further right Scott might have a better idea you know it's it's about a foot from the right-of-way line but then you've got a five foot sidewalk and then you know a six or seven foot green belt so it's probably 12 or 15 feet from the road something like that but you can only but Marla what's the rule we can only go you can only go five right you have to go five right so what they're suggesting is they actually since the city has to abandon the existing old farm road right-of-way and accept a new old farm right-of-way at the north end they're proposing to modify the old farm road right-of-way through here as well so instead of a one foot they would move the right-of-way to create five feet now are they proposing making the right-of-way narrower through here or shifting it across the road that's a good point i mean we could do either bro i got a kind of kind of way in just a little bit so one thing i think it's important to point out is the the old farm road right away here is 66 feet wide which is you know much wider than typical um certainly 60 is very normal and most of the right-of-ways in this development are actually 50 so you know that can be that can be reduced without it being high the other thing i would point out is that um what i think makes this sort of unique is one i think it it is worthwhile to take a look at the architecture particularly on those townhomes to see how it relates to the streetscape but two both on the east and west side all of these homes are rear-loaded garages so you don't have curb cuts which i think you know sort of negates the issue a little bit in terms of the the setbacks from the street it helps it disappear a little bit at least you know not not from a right-of-way perspective but from the the pedestrian experience yeah because you're looking at a little bit along a little path to a sidewalk but no but no cars and no garages and driveways exactly it's really really trying to get like a village uh kind of center feel on this road yeah i think it could have an interesting look i do we don't i saw some elevations in the packet but do we have these elevations there are elevations for the the uh yeah the easiest thing you know it might not be as big but if you go to our slide deck slide 23 had a picture of the the farm the duplex elevation but hold on i was going over here but i can are there any moments i'm not sure what uh marlo this this is q i don't know yeah it was five q the exhibits yeah that's what this is but i don't think it opened oh which is like q okay all right so 23 oh i did open i'm gonna get on a soapbox and this is really not an issue in this case because it sounds like everybody who has spoken from the board thus far understands why this request is being made for reducing the right of way with or shifting the right of way and i think it makes sense um but one thing that was emphasized early on in the staff comments um that i just want to emphasize again is that the applicant has made some assumptions about what they want to build and those until they receive approval are malleable so if the board is not obviously not a great example because the board thinks what they're whatever putting now seems okay but if the board hated this the only option if there's more than one option it's not just to reduce the setbacks to the rear yard setbacks and have the home closer to hillside they could make four foot narrower homes um so i guess i just want to remind the board that like you know nothing is final yet we haven't said homes must be 2 000 square feet um there's a lot of a lot of assumptions that have gone in here but again it sounds like everybody's okay with this i just want to do the middle example while i'm waiting here well well what's involved in changing the right-of-way roll farm road it's a big process um but like the process for who though is it for us or or is it something that we should have City Councils to change it yes oh you know good luck with that if you if you went on March 3rd second March 2nd yeah March 3rd let me do it to be clear we would we would not be saying let's alter the right-of-way if we weren't already in that process for the north end of old farm road it just seemed like it wouldn't be much additional work because we're going to be dealing with it and to joe's point you know these homes originally were shorter and then when we started adding decks and porches and trying to figure out how to make them live well despite having two front yards they kind of got longer and and that's a challenge these are the single families but i think we're looking at one more page there you go i'm gonna go down a little further yeah so these are examples of um this is you can see the the upper elevation is the the meadow loop side of it so that's the one that's facing the other homes and then the bottom elevation is what's facing old farm road those are doors on them you know like right above where it says th2-1 that's a that's a door it's not quite sure why it's showing up like a long window but those are front doors so is this a triplex yes yeah but does the middle one only have a one car garage correct okay yeah that was that confused me okay so the so the middle one is a smaller unit than the the two on the outside correct still a three-bedroom unit but the smaller unit yeah so again the you know the we tasked our designers with coming up with a streetscape on old farm road that you know it's kind of a traditional look very i i think handsome looking and then they also tasked them with essentially the same task on the loop side but we had the parking requirement there and i think it's been pretty successful i don't see the porches on the meadow east old farm road elevation yeah that's it's just the way that this is there you go if you zoom in a bit so you can see like where that says th2- i don't know i can't dash one like that's a porch roof right there it's a you know yeah yeah well i'll be sitting here what you think mark about this design and and its closeness to old farm road it doesn't bother me i mean i think that they're they're attractive triplex you know it definitely is a a two front building you know where it doesn't read like you know the back of a building with you know the parking garages or the you know the garage doors it definitely has an attractive look on both fronts of it i'm i'm not i like i kind of like the the really tight closeness to um old farm on the ones on the fringes you know part of me you know this is kind of out there but i i almost wonder if you create a green space by bumping the sidewalk in so it almost like maintains a similar distance the whole way you know along the perimeter of these but you get a deeper green space sort of in the center of it where this sort of like all oblong football shape is um because like right now they're they're town they're triplexes so they're kind of townhome style so you know you're gonna have this long sidewalk leading up to a unit with just a little bit of green in between that's not going to be really used on a communal basis but if you have the sidewalk cut in and follow you know seven through 20 sort of pretty close to the unit so you get almost like a boston row house effect feel to those those then you get like almost like a decent amount of green space between the sidewalk and old farm road to be you know a communal area yeah i see what you're saying yeah and then it's less because less of a i mean they are they're going to be a part of an hioi assume and the lawns are all going to be the grass can be taken care of not by the individual so it is a shared space there's a reason why that can't happen scott that always tells us why we can't do it yeah maybe that guy there there are some grading concerns here you're probably not looking at a you know a perfectly flat lawn out here to make the single family units work on meadow loop meadow loop is significantly below old farm road and so there there would be some some grade that would be need to be made up but you know i don't there's there's nothing in principle keeping from a from a practical standpoint i really like that idea and i think that's that's what the team has always been after was this a unique facade along old farm road everything from the alley on the the south side with the curve that faces out and then this dental curve on the the townhouse area in meadow loop the one concern i would have about the sidewalk following the front which i again i really like the idea is is that a public sidewalk and if it's a public sidewalk then the right away would have to follow that curve so wouldn't be a consistent 60 foot because it would be on private property it would be a public walk and so it doesn't have to we've done um we've done a maintenance easement for public sidewalk okay okay if you if you're comfortable with it then yeah you know that's something we can we can consider yeah i just think that way you don't end up with these long strips of sidewalk going from the public sidewalk to the private unit and you get almost no usable green space you know just those little patchworks i think it's a great idea it might even reduce our coverage and give us some more parallel parking yeah the other thing on the parallel parking i would take a look at and i know this is just sort of in the details but um on the the three sets of parallel parking spots that are sort of right on the um the loop road on meadow loop that comes up out of cottages um i'd shift that sort of parallel parking spaces to the south so that you're not sort of like aligning it with the meadow loop um road please try to move it down there down so the road would come out on an island basically right yeah right yeah the fifth parallel parking spot is actually the entrance into the cottages the driveway for the cottages 16 2018 oh yeah yeah that's definitely a mistake right there yeah it's just you know i'll open that one and i can't help but point it out when i see it i could have made it all the way to final flat if you didn't good catch good catch yeah i mean i think that that's a lot of feedback and i think i think it's it's it's great i think we're probably all set on having enough to to get moving on the old farm road details so the one thing of your five things that we haven't talked about is the alley on lot 31 i think that's coming up in uh is that really soon in the enumerated comments but okay i think it's soon then cool cool point um boy where are we in the enumerated comments um we talked about the old typical section of old farm road fired issuing decision for the right plat sounds like the applicant has agreed that's what they're going to do they're not going to wait until final comment number 10 taken as a whole transportation comments points to the concept this is a transportation system not a series of intersections that need improvements that recommends the board direct the applicant to look at the traffic network comments holistically and then here we go a lot 31 five the applicant has designed western homes on lot 31 with the rear alley serving garages um so let's zoom in there okay staff supports this configuration though the applicant has expressed reservations about the marked ability of detached garages that considers detaches garages create a rear yard space in a degree of privacy that other homes do not have uh because of the advantageous street presence created by the rear loaded configuration and the unusable space created by the proposed configuration between eastern homes in the alley the short section of steep grade immediately behind the eastern homes on lot 31 that recommends the board direct the applicant to provide rear loading for the remainder of the homes on lot 31 the board has concerns about the feasibility this configuration staff recommends the board invoke technical review the applicant has indicated concerns about slope yards but if the allies were central to lot 31 staff considers both sets of homes could have larger rear yards for the gradual slope um so if i can i break down this comment marla so we've got rear we've got detached garages on the northern side here because of the slope is the staff comment suggesting that we should have detached garages on the southern side um so yes the second part no to the first part the detached garages are not because of slope they're just because it creates no curb cuts on old farm road um but yes the staff comment is why not do it on 31 15 to 31 25 also wait wait explain to me why do you have to have a detached garage well doesn't have to be detached but to be rear loaded um one of the advantages is you get this sort of personal or private lawn area in between your garage and your house that no other homes in this development really have no one no one has a yard i guess the homes south east of this yard but these guys get yards because they have this detached garage yeah the you know the detached garage so so when we met with with staff uh in i think november maybe december and we had proposed homes originally that accessed on old farm road and those you know had curb cuts on old farm road and the sort of conversation was that what we were just having you know you've got these town homes and you really just have these 10 homes that are having curb cuts and wouldn't it be nice if we just had you know this nice feeling uh central road that didn't have curb cuts and you know the problem with a rear loaded alley access home from a home sales perspective is that you know i i don't think it's fair to say that that the homes don't have backyards i mean every home has a back door that goes out to an area where they can sit privately and enjoy whatever their their their company uh when you put a road behind the home it's sort of it creates it creates a non private space right so now you've got a public road in your front yard and a public road in your backyard and you don't really have a private space and so you know the way that you got around that and still were able to get the alley access was to separate the garage because by detaching the garage you create that private yard that marla's talking about so basically your garage isolates you from that common driveway and gives you that private space that you're looking for so that's why we went to detach garage route and and and didn't just you know slide the alley closer to the homes but you would be removing that backyard from our residents so we okay so i understand that part now the second part of that comment which is from the staff which is guard rear loading for the remainder of lot 31 how would you do that certainly you certainly could it's not unfeasible i don't think that we would say that that it couldn't be done you know the the reason why we didn't was that we're sort of providing a range of housing opportunities in the project you know if those homes all converted to the to the same type you know it would be i think we had it in our slide deck at least 25 out of 67 of the houses in the neighborhood would be a detached garage and you know a pretty high percentage of homes that have a feature which is significantly less uh sought in the market so you know it was a compromise to say you know that we're we're willing to take this we're willing to do this on old farm road and we're willing to come up with this creative solution but we we also want to limit the quantity of that unproven commodity as a percentage of the development i think that you know we we've shown a fair amount of flexibility and creativity and and both coming up with the cottage concept which was you know staff was really interested in us looking at and then the rear loaded with the detached garages but you know we do have market concerns and it's one thing when you're you have a certain segment of your houses but if it gets to the you know half of your homes are kind of these experimental unproven commodity you're really rolling the dice quite a bit and what it does when you have detached garages is it limits the demographics of the people you're appealing to i think we're probably not going to appeal to a lot of seniors or folks that are approaching their senior years by having detached garages because it does create an issue during the winter when you're coming with your groceries that you're walking across a path that could be icy or you could have to you know have have a shovel out and again we're willing to take some risk on that end but we don't think it's appropriate for us to to go entirely down that direction and so i think we have a nice balance here particularly on on the streetscape that we think is the most important which is old farm road by having rear loaded yeah yeah i understand that argument i'm being sure if you were to do if you were to put detached garages would you would you have would you use that same alleyway that same that same narrow street would you have to create a new one for the southern homes on lot 31 i think it's something like a minor redesign it would use the same the same street you know another concern you know it is a lot of homes on an alley it's a narrow alley you know it you know you get a lot of trash cans a lot of snow removal challenges you know potentially with garages on both sides of a 12-foot wide road you know so there are there are concerns with it but i think the primary concern was was you know this whole project i could talk to you guys for hours about sort of how you balance product types and different homes for different people right and i think you know we if you look at the way that our homes are structured you have bands of square footage you have bands of use types first floor masters that second floor masters first floor laundry second floor laundry we really get into the details to balance a project pro forma so that you can sell the project in a timely manner and so that you can you can be successful in creating the neighborhood and you know going 25 out of 67 single families to one particular unit type it's just not it's not balanced right i hear you so now so but marketability of that particular type so the southern homes on lot 31 that you're driving in the garage off of off of that that road there and then the backyard you're looking at a slope right or or what's the slope from the back porch of the southern homes on 31 towards the alleyway in the garage i think the honest answer is we haven't figured out you know what what the exact right solution is i think there's a number of different ways we could grade it and a number of different ways we could design the homes on on lot 31 scott could speak about the options but the intent is to create a usable rear yard for those homes one thing the way i the preliminary design right now has basically a flat spot out the back of the unit for relatively short distance 10 15 feet and then a short bank still a mobile slope but up a little bit and then a flatter spot out to the road one option we've talked about would be to you know have a different unit design where we can make up some of that grade with the wall rep with the wall of the building rather than a slope wall another thing we've talked about would be pushing that bank back towards the alley to create more of a yard right outside the back door of the house like andrew's right there's a few options we certainly think they're all workable and we we certainly think it's still going to be attractive yard space for you know the owners of those units and the distance between the back porch to the to the essentially staring at the other garage what's the distance there from like 31 19 to 31 8 or the garage at 31 8 quite a ways that's about it's over 100 feet it's 110 oh wow okay all right yeah all right and and i think that's you know to scott's point like we're looking at how to make that a feature of those homes so you know we really want home 31 15 through 31 25 to have large usable backyards as a feature as another product type you know similar home types are available on other lots with smaller yards and and those same homes are on these lots with larger yards sort of capturing those groups those different features matter but are these are these single family lots are these like carriage homes with the hoa where all that land can't be fenced in and they're just taken care of but yes there's a yeah it's a hybrid uh so what we've done a hillside with a lot of success is we've allowed people to be able to fence their yard in and if they do fence their yard in then it becomes their responsibility to maintain inside the fence and so it would probably be something like that where where you could you know you could potentially fence in the yard if you wanted to and make it your own if that makes sense but there are a few people who've done it and it seems worked out all right um Don, Brian, Alyssa, Mark, your opinion on whether or not they all should be rear rear loading garages detached garages or whether you like this design but this is Brian I like that design I think it's as others have pointed out it's sort of a test to see how well it will be received and perhaps maybe in later phases they could do more of it but for now I think this is fine okay thank you I would agree with that and I also think that their comment about different products for different populations or demographics makes sense not everybody wants the same thing so it's fine with me yeah I concur and I'd be concerned about doing a double loaded alley with private garages I think you would it would get to be too much and I think this provides a little bit more of a variety and a little bit more of a separation from the back of the townhomes with the front loaded garages and that back alley now I agree as well I like the design the way it is I wouldn't want to put in more detached garages sort of see how it goes with what you got okay thank you number 12 connections transitions between project and hillside feedback from the board sketch was to improve these connections by extension transitions between the master plan area of hillside and the development proposed there's only one vehicular connection between the two properties located at the north end of the development area board should talk about whether we want to include want the connection to hillside to occur via split rock court as part of this project where the applicant must demonstrate that the connection via ledge way can work in the future okay so let's look at yeah you're lucky I had written like two pages about this and called me to take them out um but I'm gonna I'm gonna talk for a minute so well rock court was originally approved with the I guess ledge way was originally approved with this sort of like potential to connect here lauren ty lane was approved with the potential to connect here and then well rock court was the potential to connect there um at sketch the board had expressed concern about the only connection to hillside being over on this right hand side of the page um so the question is is this one connection vehicular connection out of it given you know that there are pedestrian connections here here and here and then again here or should this connection at split rock court happen the ledge way connection can't happen now because these three partials are not part of the application um but you know there should be some consideration for um you know if if split rock court isn't connecting now should there be a condition that you know before say this road is built that this connection has to be made for you know what there's a lot of different permutations of this conversation um the only other thing I wanted to say is that this split rock court connection were made um this open space would have to shift over and then we lose some of the home them and all this so so right now all the way at the end of old farm road and uh o'brien farm road that's the connection between hillside and east view is that correct the only connection plan the only vehicular connection yeah only vehicular connection planned if you if you click through i'm just just summarizing if you if you connect through split rock court you're changing the open space right design your other connection that i see here is is right before split rock court that connects into the into the almost into the where where metal loop comes into old farm road and then you might lose a house or two there if you did it that way that's uh i should have given a different color that's a pedestrian connection okay so that that's not it that's not a place you could put a right there's there's two existing houses on either side of that as well okay and then is there another opportunity or is it just split rock court is the only way you get from there to there the only opportunity now is split rock court ledge way is set up to allow connection in the future at such time as those sort of circled bots are redeveloped if they're sold and redeveloped yeah i said um boy i'd hate to lose that open space um and in the effect of having that connection is it a is it a egress issue where you're worried that people are going to go through these other area to get out is it an emergency issue or is it just to try to create connectivity between the two projects this was really a response to what the board of feedback the board of provided it sketch um yeah you know i think a little bit see the larger network yeah here's groups right is there any live on lauren tibeline and you work in the ic area how do you get to work for example let's say that again marla if you live in this house oh if you live in this house and you work off the page where they're going to have the industrial commercial area how do you get to work right yeah you'd have to go through to brother's drive all right or well brian farm road or you say screw it that takes too long i'm gonna walk yes true and you do have access to we are making sure we have pedestrian bike paths and connectivity that way is there any opportunity to do anything at the northern end of metal loop to old to two brothers drive or is that so close to the other connectivity doesn't make any sense there is a pedestrian connection but that's where at sketch we spend a lot of time talking about the topography and then some of those homes are awfully close there too yeah you know i i know that i was one of the you know advocates for more vehicular connectivity between these developments um but also i was one of the opponents or vocal not supportive of the streetscape design of splitrock court and you know ledge way with the sort of sidewalk as part of the streetway you know to to sort of squeeze these houses in tighter because it said that i was really concerned about you know people parking on the sidewalk and then people have to walk around and for kids riding their bikes so the last thing i want to do is introduce more vehicular circulation through these little dead end streets which i know that we have them designed so that if those other developments do get built out they're supposed to be connected but i just wouldn't support connecting through these little tight residential streets that are i had concerns with to begin with yeah i agree i don't want to lose the open space the cars can drive around and or they can be encouraged to do a walker bike yeah it's one of these things i wish we had it but i don't advocate the one solution we do have to achieve it and we've created in a case those parcels that were sold and developed to become part of this we've created we've created the infrastructure by way of regulations to ensure that that connection could happen at that time right yeah so that was sort of part two and i don't know what made this move and what made me cut out um if you pan down and to the left a bit um there's this sort of yeah that guy there's this planned right-of-way 50-foot easement for future access um so i guess it's probably coming later but where does that land relative to ledge way and is that appropriate what do you mean where does it land in yeah um well i think i i can see it i just this involves one or two properties that need to be sure and that's fine you know but we're in the business of setting up development for future success too right so does the i guess i haven't seen it the way that lila just threw it before because i was looking at it and i said oh that shoots out this direction it doesn't really line up but i'm not sure that that for the your original concern about the person who lives on ledge way getting over to kimble was it i don't think that saves them anything it was about this area people work down in this commercial oh okay all right we're doing that commercial district that they're building yeah okay also it becomes when a brian farm road is the only connection that does might lead to future congestion when it's fully built question is there any looks at that was the question will a brian farm road be overwhelmed when it's fully built no i think that was part of the traffic study roger could answer right yeah we looked at that if no that's that's not going to happen there's plenty of capacity there okay so i think we exhausted 12 um we're not going to change that design of the open space at this point um to accommodate a connection for cars um number 13 talking about the tilly drive pd is recorded an easement to the subject property line which staff considers does not appear to connect the proposed ic roadway that recommends the board require the applicant to modify their proposal to provide a viable collector roadway connection to the dedicated easement as required by the official map and demonstrate coordination with those responsible for the tilly drive pd any such modification should provide access to each of the proposed lots in the ic area and accommodate the board's direction as it pertains to connections between the residential phase and the ic phase of this ud we explain this a little bit more the transitions within these zoning districts do you guys um do you still have the the slide deck that we sent because we had had scott draw a um yeah which which page do you want me to go to slide 34 shows this uh on an aerial photo this particular item okay let me just hold on a second i end up a bunch of things so so the tilly drive pd includes what they've recorded like uh either an easement or right away that goes to our property line uh in there in some of their approvals no i what i'm saying is the tilly drive pd is that include all of the office buildings on tilly drive the medical buildings or is that include some of them what is yeah it's all of the office buildings including all of them built yeah what it's worth i've spoken with bob ashard at pittsagalli properties about the specific issue on the shifting of the connector road and you know his general response was he didn't have an issue with it as long as we were you know staying in open communication about how those two sections would connect but you know jogging up the property line he thought was a reasonable solution because they do have some limitations on the developable area of that remaining lot that they have i think there's some wetlands there that they're trying to avoid yeah there's a wetlands map in the staff comments that shows the limitations on the drive and you can see it because it's not on this slide but you can see the right of way on the slide that's up now and then the area where the industrial commercial road tees into the tilly drive right of way is just wet well i think we're i don't know how much of your time we have and we have a lot of uh sort of more complex feedback but why don't we get a proposal together of how these two things come together and bring it back to you guys that sounds good thank you step number 14 staff recommends the board undertake a similar discussion of the connection between the hillside and the current project by asking applicator describe how residents will travel between the residential area and the industrial commercial area to the east and then provide feedback to the applicant or whether provided non-vehicular connections between the two areas are adequate for the currently proposed design um is that what we were just talking about marla or is it is it talking more about how we're going to get um the pedestrian walkways there so this is moving away from hillside to east view and talk as now within east view from the area currently proposed for development to the industrial commercial area that i circled on that previous i so how you get from the the problems that are proposed to the industrial areas just to the south of it right and i just wanted to give you a time check while i have this floor yes it's 945 i think we can get to uh how much well 14 and 15 time to go together okay let's get to 14 and 15 i think i think this has a pretty big impact on the whole project and so it would be good to to get some all right let's get through 14 and 15 here then before i go to public comment so we had a slide that that makes this easier to see uh there's a couple exists we provide to actually probably help on on slide 35 um just so everybody knows what we're talking about we don't have to go through too many um units so this is the connection that we're talking about highlighted in purple and um you know to the last conversation like we we you know we've looked at this connection there's some some pretty significant grading challenges which i've got some some slides that sort of illustrate uh the the board had expressed a concern about being able to connect there and our at our sketch plan hearing the houses uh hemmed in legacy farm road and there was not sufficient width for a road ever there is we did in we did put in a 50 foot wide easement into the plan that would allow for that connection support the connection we're not proposing to build the connection but we have accommodated that might ever become something that's desirable to the city and so that there is space so so that being said you know that that was where we felt we could go was to sort of say there is space here this isn't going to be the case that you know this becomes a need and you're there's nothing you can do which was the the original case at sketch plan but there are a number of challenges here and and uh if you sort of move to the next slide we give a little more information on on what those challenges are and there's there's two slides this one the the scale is a little bit over dramatic but where that purple line is running in the image this is a a section view essentially if you cut through you know across the road and it shows you the amount of fill that the road would be on to make the road connection uh and Scott drew this he could you know maybe describe it better but essentially it's you know a 15 to 18 foot fill at the beginning heading on down into the field and if you go to the next slide you can see sort of how that would relate to buildings on the lots so right in the middle there where the yellow line is teeing into is your road and the buildings are on the left and right of it and the road is above the front doors so you know the grade wise it's just it's challenging there's a lot of earth movement that would be involved in making this connection and you know in terms of the benefits you know lies the sort of talk about it but essentially you know if you you're you're creating this vehicular connection to enable industrial commercial users access onto a small 20-foot wide residential street and you know we don't know what those users are but you know we do have a slide that sort of demonstrates some of the potential uses if you go to the the next one you know this is a crudely superimposed vision but it is 100 possible in the ic district that that's what those two lots end up looking and so i know requiring a road into that parking lot doesn't make a lot of sense it also would be prohibitive of that particular style of use being built although that's the style of use that the zoning is sort of conducive to and and it sort of would just create you know a cut through for two very non very dissimilar uses and if you go there's another one Delilah I think I've got the listed you know you can see what's sort of permitted in the ic district everything from lumber yards to contract the yards to RV dealerships something like Pete's RV or maybe one of their competitors since they're up the road but specifically prohibited is any residential use at all and so you know I think you know we have always we've had a vision of that area being a mixed use development and it's just not the reality of what's allowed under the zoning regulations and so we felt it's sort of providing that easement in that space in case there ever was a viable opportunity to do something here made sense but that creating you know right of way you know sort of has more more problems than benefit so so if I did live on hillside or east view and I did work at the new Pete's RV in the commercial industrial how would I how would I get there so go to one more slide ahead I think I might have a we did a map or maybe it's two so this is talking about the bifurcation of our planned wildlife corridor which this this potential road would bifurcate the planned wildlife corridor that the you know the natural resources committee had supported in their comments you know so you can see that on the plan the green sort of connection between the two yellow between Kimball Avenue and the Tilly Drive development we had we'd planned that sort of environmental connector which this road would would bifurcate with that big you know 15-foot hill on each side and I guess if you skip one more ahead to your question Matt sorry don't have these memorized maybe two more there it is so so we did a plan that's part of the packet that sort of gives you calculated travel times and so this is just illustrating sort of a walking path to work at the IC at Pete's RV or a driving path and we sort of calculated the distances going you know an average speed essentially your time to walk to work would be eight minutes your time to drive to work would be 3.3 minutes and at the average driving speed of 21 feet per second it would take you approximately as I say reduction in your drive time if the IC connector road was built would be approximately 87 seconds so by creating this connector road would save a commuter coming from our project to the IC about 87 seconds in the car we're all environmental and other constant right so I guess you got a slow problem you got a problem that it screws up your natural resources area your nature trails and all that your your habitat corridor um you got a problem that that this is a commercial area that you're not going to have that you could have a lumber yard or Pete's RVs there that you're not going to have that natural nexus between but I also get that it almost seems like two different projects here too without the connection which it is I mean really it means the same piece of land but it's it's a totally different it's not a mixed use like you have over in the northern end on that you're working on I think there's a lot of people who live in cities and even in Vermont who would kill for the short auto drive that's spelled out in purple here I mean that's not a bad commute yeah the the the interrupting that corridor just to create a a nexus or connection a more direct connection between the homes and the commercial industrial area is not it's tough for me to get over that one yeah it doesn't make a whole lot of sense other than creating a connection between the projects I mean but does there need to be one or should you just take Kimbalab to get from to get from your home on the on the hill there to the to your job on the at the pizza RV down the hill but what are your thoughts she just here no I'm here I just have network connectivity so I turned off my video um network connectivity issues um so two thoughts one is the applicant is proposing that the area to the right of the screen east of the wildlife corridor be part of this beauty what does it mean to be part of a beauty um and what connectivity is required to be part of a beauty um the staff comment 15 is recommending that there be a condition that connectivity between the residential and the industrial commercial area be provided no later than the time of the first industrial commercial lot being developed but leaves open the question of whether that should be pedestrian or vehicular connectivity um well I think that's the solution Marla I think to me as long as we insist on some sort of connectivity through a pedestrian path or bike way we preserve the nature area we require cars to take that xj 83 seconds but we have so many so much upside but yet we establish that connectivity to meet that that requirement to me that would do it for me but I don't know how everyone else feels yeah Matt I I agree you know again I kind of go back to the fact that you know early on I was a big proponent of making these connections and you know having more interconnectivity but you know when you see the technical of what it takes and how you actually have true impediments to getting that connection to happen you know the road profile would be crazy you know I think getting pedestrian connection and you know it's it's sufficient you know and whether you know I'd like to see it happen for you know to be planned when the the industrial park it's built out you know whether it's the first permit or some trigger mechanism but then I'd like to see it actually happen anyone else it just seems like it's a lot of effort to no end to add that the particular connection okay I'm looking at the I'm looking on a different screen at the aerial rendering which is fantastic because you can really see that slope between the east view neighborhood and the commercial industrial area I don't know if you have that but you can see you can see the outline of pedestrian past that connection I'm not sure how that again to qualify as a PUD and make sure that there is the connection how if that if that what you have on that aerial rendering is sufficient but yeah no that area should stay green it should stay a corridor for the habitat and we should and I don't think we should build a automobile road in between let's straightforward feedback we were at 10 o'clock so we went through 15 comments of 15 out of 47 my bonus five in the middle there it's almost a third you sure you want to go for one or two more no I can't I can't so but I do want to provide anyone that's hung in there and I want to say first off that anyone listening tonight has a comment we are not going to close obviously they can submit in writing they can comment at their next hearing or they have opportunity to comment now so I would offer anyone in the public that's listening in if you would like to comment on what you've heard tonight or what you want to hear later please enter your name in the chat box or just shout out hey Matt listening for anyone to shout their my name out and looking at the chat box and I don't see anyone John you're not still there are you no okay okay so Marla when should we continue this I have seen the big ol block of time on March 16th okay so I move that we continue I'm sure it's a name right I move that we continue SD 2040 a 500 old farm road to March 16th I will second that seconded by Don Mark hi Brian hi Alyssa hi Don and Matt what's I and we have continued this item to March 16th thank you everybody thank you everyone from your brand everyone else that thank you guys very much we appreciate it thank you very much it's really helpful thanks have a good night bye bye and next item on the agenda hold on I gotta pull it up is agenda item number six which is the minutes from February 2nd does everyone have a chance to look at the minutes are there any edits or additions hearing none I move that we approve the minutes from February 2nd 2021 a second seconded by Mark let's do a voice vote all in favor say aye aye any objections any abstentions and the minutes have passed number seven last item agenda is other business is there any other business from the board or from we look forward to a new member on March 3rd Stephanie Wyman um and everyone please vote either by mail or safely in person on March 2nd thank you and that concludes the top development review board meeting for Wednesday February 17th 2021 good night meeting for Wednesday yeah bye bye sir bye