 Welcome in the OG podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. We have Dan Moldea, the godfather of true crime reporting, a mentor of mine. And this episode, I am going to have Dan lay out his legacy in turn. Everybody knows Dan's legacy when it comes to Jimmy Hoffa, but I think an equally important legacy that Dan has, and I wanted to bring him on the pod to talk about his book from 1989 called Interference. And it is the Bible when it comes to illegal activity, illegal gambling, the mafia and the NFL. Dan, thank you so much for joining me to discuss your legendary book that everybody that's watching this or listening to this needs to go by because it is an amazing read that I don't know if a lot of people still know about the book here in the 2020s. But an amazing book and thank you for joining us, Dan. My pleasure, Scott. Good to see you. There was a show on PBS that premiered. It was called Frontline. And it was a great documentary series, which has still runs and is still respected as one every award in broadcast journalism and deservedly so. But their premier show on I think it was January 17, 1983 was called An Unauthorized History of the NFL. And there were several friends of mine who were involved in this production. And the show detailed allegations of mafia influence in professional football, including fixed games. And they got very specific about people who were involved, made suggestions as to there was there was the unnamed defensive back, the unnamed quarterback and the unnamed head coach, which turned out to be the coach was Hank Stramm and from the Kansas City Chiefs and the quarterback was Lenny Dawson. And so the show got ripped, the show got ripped apart by the NFL. And the sports media came down on them like a ton of bricks. And so the my friends who were working with the show came to me and they said, here is $200,000 worth of research that we've done. We can't take this any further. We're giving it to you to write a book about this. And so I started doing my research. There was there was a lot of stuff that went in between it was very difficult to sell the book I had to stop and start. And then I wrote a book in the meantime called Dark Victory, Ronald Reagan, MCA in the mob about the mafia in Hollywood. And then and then I when I was finished that then I came back with with interference how organized crime influences professional football. And what I what I what I claim in the book is that no fewer than at that time, 26 pass and present NFL team owners had documented ties to either the illegal gambling community and or the organized crime syndicate that no fewer than 70 NFL games have been fixed that no fewer than 50 legitimate investigations of corruption in the NFL had been either suppressed or just flat out killing because of a sweetheart relationship between NFL security, which you know is the internal police force within the league, which has made up a lot of a lot of ex federal law enforcement. Exactly. And with a lot of with a lot of it's a it's internal police force within the league. And then I also alleged that that the that the proliferation of gambling would cause more organized crime activity because at that time they were starting a sports lottery in Oregon, I think, and they had already had a failed one in Delaware. And I said, you know, when you have legalized gambling, it's going to cause a proliferation of illegal gambling. We're seeing that right now in big, big, big picture of that. And then finally, I thought that the sports media had become an adjunct to the to the First Amendment because the assistance by the sports media to print and broadcast the betting line to hire these odds makers and handicappers for the purposes of predicting the outcomes of games where game was still ill gambling was still illegal like 48 states. And so I went I really went after this. I went I went and my story was basically a history of the NFL security. And I interviewed everyone who was still alive, who was head of the NFL security. And I went through the whole process of going back to Sammy Baudet, where there was a where he was he was recorded secretly recorded by the Metropolitan Police Department here in Washington, where they were talking about gambling on games. And there was one guy who was even talking about Fixie games, and they were talking to bookmakers and everything else. So I went through this whole process. So I went to a guy named Vince Prasati. And Vince Prasati was the he was the he was in the Michigan State Attorney General's office. And I've viewed Vince is one of the finest people I ever do. I loved it. The biggest, the biggest most important mob buster in Michigan history, Vince Prasate was the Elliot Ness of Detroit in the way that Elliot Ness went after Capone. Prasate went after it lasted longer than Elliot Ness. He went after the Detroit guys for 50 years and had a lot of major, major take downs. Well said, well said. Exactly. So I went to Vince and he said, Listen, if you're going to write a book about the about the NFL, you're going to have to get the game fixed. You're going to have to get it again. I said, Yeah, you know, I'm looking for it. He says, Well, there was a guy named Don Dawson. He was a bookmaker here in Michigan. And you know, he was fixing games. We knew it could approve it, but we knew it. So I said, Well, what do you know about him? And he introduced me to a guy named Herbert Hinchman, who was the who was the chief investigator for the Internal Revenue Services, OIC, the Office of Investigative Services. And I knew a guy named Carl Schoffler, who was the head of the Intelligence Division for the Metropolitan Police Department here in Washington. And I was introduced to a guy named Leo Halper, who was a who was an IRS OIC guy as well, and had run an operation called Operation Layoff. And it was about they were investigating eight fixed games that were fixed, allegedly by two referees. Anyway, I I focused on Don Dawson. And I had and I was being told not only by my vits in Michigan Attorney General's Office, but I was being told by my sources in the FBI and in the strike force that Don Dawson was fixing games. And so I went to Don Dawson, I found them. And I had eight interviews with him. And on the sixth or seventh interview on tape, he admitted to me that he had personally participated in the fixing of no fewer than 30. They was 36, 32 games. It was 32 games. And so I went with this. And there's a long history with with with with the with interference, where I was an unwelcomed person who came into the situation. And my problem was not so much with the mafia. It was. And it wasn't even so much with the NFL. I wanted to fight the NFL. I was looking forward to it. I was coming out with things and they had no comeback or they weren't showing up. And what I wanted was that fight with them. And then what ended up happening was my fight ends up with the sports media. There was a and at the New York Times, I'm a I'm a creation of the New York Times. The New York Times invented me as an author on June 29, 1978, where they wrote this beautiful story about me. And that was what created me as an author from from my book, The Hoffa Wars in 1978. And so this sports writer who's been covering the NFL longer than he'd been married to his wife, a guy who is a respect to sports writer at the New York Times. He writes this review of my book that claims that I said things I never said and claims that I didn't say were right there in black and white in the book. And so I called him up and I said, Hey, you know, I want to retraction on this. And he says, Yeah, you know, I can't do that. The reviews written in there. So I lawyer to had a we went in and tried to get corrections. No, they refused to have corrections. So I'm a freelance writer. I'm an independent guy for 50 years. I'm an independent writer, fiercely independent, but I have no institutional backing. And so I asked him to publish my letter through my lawyer, I asked him to publish my letter to the end of defending myself. They say no. So what a choice away my sewer. So here I'm an investigative journalist, a beneficiary of all these First Amendment privileges that we have. And here I am challenging this right to be wrong that the media has. And so I, I then, you know, deal with his lawsuit that goes on longer than World War Two, where I have it one in February 1974, and then the US Court of Appeals takes it away from me in May 1970, may 1970, a few months later in 1974. So what happened was is that we had, we had, we were wondering what was going on. And we had the FBI. There was a book that came out. And it was called Alien Inc. The FBI's War on Freedom of Expression. And it was about how there was a book review section within the FBI. And it had been created by J. Edgar Hoover. And the, and what Hoover would do was this book review section was that he would use this, this, this covert operation to sabotage authors and their published works when they disagreed with J. Edgar Hoover's view of America. And so according to Alien Inc, which was written by a woman named Natalie Robbins, who was the wife of Christopher Lehmann Hopp, the chief book critic at the New York Times. The Natalie said that after Hoover died, there were 15 books that were reviewed between 1972 and 1989. The last book reviewed by this FBI book review section, this sabotage outfit was Interference, How Organized Crime Influences, Professional Football by Daniel Day. So I went down to the FBI and I said, Hey, I want, you know, I want my file. They said, and I talked to a guy named Milt Aldrich. Milt Aldrich was the guy who ran the book review section. And he was a guy who supervised the investigation of me. And so I filed an FOIA for my file. And I get it. And the FBI was, they were coming, they were, they were coming after me on all kinds of fronts. And they were heavily promoting the review in the New York Times, this, this, the smear review in the New York Times. And they were also promoting an even worse review in the Washington Post by an FBI student named Sandy Smith, who was a reporter for Time Magazine and was viewed as an FBI agent. He was described as an FBI student in many, many publications. And so as a consequence of that, I tried to complain. But, you know, that was to no avail. I'm a small guy. And the head of NFL security was a guy named Warren Welch. And Warren Welch retired. And, and here's NFL security, which as you know, is a plumb position. Everybody wants this job, you know, you, and, and who does the NFL pick as the next head of NFL security? You please warn. Milt Aldrich, the guy who runs the investigation of me. Now, Warren Welch and I, and, and one of the biggest odds maker in the country was a guy named Michael Roxy Roxborough, who I liked. I got to know him and he was a terrific guy. And I got to know Warren Welch too. And, you know, I felt badly that the three of us were on nightline together because I'm no gentleman in these situations. And I go for the throat when I, when I don't like you. And these guys I liked. And so just as I like and respect you. And so I, on nightline, I said, you know, the day is going to come when you're going to see the NFL completely embraced sports gambling. And they're going to be offering it right in the stadiums where you can go and you can make a bet on your favorite team or whatever game going on simultaneously in the league. And as a result of the 2018 boneheaded Supreme Court decision, essentially supercharging legalized sports gambling, which to me is going to lead to the complete destruction of college sports and professional sports. We are left with this situation where illegal gambling is going to be flourishing because what happens? It is, it is flourishing like it's never happened before. You go, what happens? You go to these, you know, these, these, these online sites or you go to the brick and mortar places or the apps or the apps that you make your best. And what do you pay? What's what's your, what's your commission? You're paying 15, 20% plus you're paying taxes on these things. You learn how to use the point spread. Most people don't even know how to define the point spread. The point spread is a number that's created by an odds maker for the purpose of determining how much, what point has to be, what point has to be put up in order for money to be evenly distributed by the favors and the underdogs. That's what the point spread is. It's a device for bookmakers to balance their books. The word layoff. People don't know what the hell the layoff is. The layoff is when, when a bookmaker has an imbalance in his book, he's got too much money on the underdog or too much money on the favorite. And he, all a bookmaker wants is a balanced business and a, he wants a volume, he wants a big volume business and he wants a balance book who's going to take a 10% commission on the losing Betsy books because you're going to make you put up $11 to win 10. And so, and plus, he's going to give you credit, which the state's not going to do these can't, and plus these, these, these online operations and these, they keep meticulous records. Let me illegal bookmaker. He's not gonna, you're not paying taxes on that. And let me also just say that it might, in a lot of situations, it might look like you're not betting with the mafia. You're betting on an app or on a website that's in Costa Rica or, you know, in the Bahamas. What people don't know is just like any business, you're going to die if you don't evolve. And the mafia has evolved to the point now where yes, they have the street bookies that you can go to in person and place a bet and get, but they also have these offshore websites and apps that they're partnered up with. And you're not literally making the bet through them. They're driving you to a site for you to make the bet, but they're still getting money and they're so exerting influence over the company. Well, you'd be an expert on this in that these guys are no longer these mafia guys are not no longer knuckle draggers. These guys aren't eighth grade. These guys are well educated, high tech, online, offshore. And, you know, in Detroit, once again, you're the expert on this in Detroit. It's not the Detroit mafia. It's the Detroit partnership. Yeah, these guys are businessmen, college educated businessmen. Yes, Jack Tocco, he what he's got degrees, Anthony Zarelli had degrees. All of the second generation Detroit mob leadership, all graduated college with business degrees. Some of them were one specifically Mike Polizzi, big Mike Polizzi who had been the conciliary and unofficial CFO had a accounting degree from Syracuse. Vince Maley, who we mentioned in another broadcast that you and I did together, Kapo, eventually underboss, he had a business degree from Notre Dame. I mean, these were very, they weren't going to community colleges. These guys are going to major colleges and getting business degrees and coming back and using them to push forward their, their fathers and their uncles. These guys are, they're not knuckle-draggers. They are Wharton MBAs and Harvard MBAs and these guys are well educated. And once again, they've got high tech online offshore. And these guys have gotten smart. To me, I hear people say, Oh, the mafia is dead. I said, I don't think so. I don't think these guys look different. Just look horrible. Just looks different. Dan, can we just for a second? Get a little anecdotal. And since, you know, I'm from Detroit and I'm recording this from Detroit, I want to get into some of the stuff you reported in Interference, that I don't think the majority of Detroiters have any idea. And particularly, I want to talk about Bobby Lane, who before Jared Goff and Matt Stafford kind of redefined the quarterback position here with the Lions, we went a long time without a high quality quarterback. And they called it the Curse of Bobby Lane. Bobby Lane was the Lions franchise quarterback, the greatest quarterback Lions ever had until probably more recently. The Texas guy came from Highland Park, Texas, won NFL Championships, was beloved, you know, adopted son of the city of Detroit. And he was traded to Pittsburgh, kind of unexpectedly, shockingly, he was very upset when he got traded. That's why when he was at the train station, he said, made a comment about they're not going to win without me. And that was what the kind of person meant about. But in your book, you, it's more than just kind of a looting, you're sourcing that the NFL contacted the Detroit Lions and told them, you need to get Bobby Lane out of your city, because he's too close to guys like Don Dawson, who you referenced, right? And they're manipulating point spreads. Well, again, that's this person, this person is working with the Detroit Police Department, and he they had wiretaps, and they had surveillance reports. And they were banging on the doors of NFL players and NFL coaches, Alex Karris. I, I spent a lot of time interviewing Alex Karris, a real gentleman. I like the guy very much funny stories. But, you know, he admitted what he did. Yeah. But he but he also says, you know, the NFL is turning its collar around on this stuff, because the NFL is is a beneficiary of all this gambling that's going on. Because if you got a bet down in the game, you're going to be watching the car commercials and the the the smoking commercials, and you are which is what they were at the time. And you're going to be you're going to be you're going to you're going to have a bit down in the game, you're going to feel like you have to be entertained, you have to watch where your money's going. And so I had all those I had all those intelligence reports and surveillance reports of wiretaps. And so yeah, I use all of that in in in interference. Well, you know, here in Detroit, you had a situation and I'm sure this was not unique to Detroit at that time period in the 50s and the 60s. Detroit was actually I think Detroit was unique in that law enforcement actually did something. I think law enforcement community was very aggressive in trying to stop this. I give kudos to the Detroit law enforcement. Right. But what I'm saying isn't what that's not what I'm saying. That is unique. Yes. Well, what isn't unique, I'm guessing, is that in the 50s, 60s and 70s, and even before that, the Detroit gangsters, rubbed elbows, socialized, were very friendly with the professional athletes in the city. And dates back to prohibition. But in the 50s and 60s and early 70s, Don Dice, they call them Donnie Dice. Donnie Dice Dawson was the biggest bookmaker in the city, Detroit, one of the biggest bookmakers in America. For people that know Detroit, let's say, Detroit mod history, the last 50 years, he was Alan health before Alan health. Alan health kind of took over as being the biggest bookie in the area from Don Dawson. And Don Dawson owned a very popular restaurant called the Fox and Hound, which was I don't think I knew that Don Dawson owned the Fox and House. Don Dawson owned the Fox and Hound, which was less than a mile from Lions practice facility, which was at Cranbrook, which is a private school and museum and a big piece of land in Bloomfield Hills. And less than a mile from Cranbrook was the Fox and Hound. This was before, you know, NFL teams had multi billion dollar, multi million dollar practice facilities, in addition to their, you know, headquarters and complexes. So back then, the Lions played at Tiger Stadium, and they would practice every day at Cranbrook. And after their practices, a lot of the Lions would get in the car, drive two minutes to the Fox and Hound, which was a very fancy restaurant, but had a bar, which was a little less fancy. And I was there. Yeah, it existed up until about 10 years ago. It was a standing until about 10, 15 years ago. Now it's called Bills, but the restaurant celebrates the history of the Fox and Hound. And that's what Don Dawson would would headquarter his activities. He lived nearby in Birmingham. And you had the Jackalones, the Corrado brothers, the Likavolis, the all the all the marquee stars of the Detroit mafia would buddy up with the Detroit Lions, specifically. And and I'm again, a piggyback enough of Dan, he talks about in interference, how they would have it was called a party bus, the Jackaloney brothers, the party would would would would rent these big at that time, what would be like a luxury bus, and they would outfit it with gambling tables, like casino tables, and they'd bring girls and they'd have liquor. And they would go to all of the Detroit or Detroit Lions away games, which were all in the Midwest, you could drive to them back then, you know, whether you're going to Cleveland, or Chicago, Green Bay, whatever, what have you. And on the way home from those games, a lot of times, certain members of the Lions would join them. They wouldn't go to the game in the party bus. But once the their job was done, and they'd either won or lost, they they jumped in the party bus and gamble and partake in the women in the booze. And this is one of the reasons that Alts Karris, the all all pro linemen got suspended for a season. Another reason was that he was the owner of a bar that had a Detroit mob sports gambling operation being run out of it called the Lindell AC that he was refusing to sell for his cell. But Karris would point out to that, you know, there was the gambling going on. But he said, you have to understand, we weren't making that much money back as professional football players, even the big stars weren't making that much money. Right, which was which was incentive for them to kind of play around with point spreads. And I know I'm not sure if I got this from your book, Dan, or if I got it from somewhere else. But I know that there are stories that when Bobby Lane got treated, I'm sure my book, yeah, they replaced him a quarterback, I think with milk plum plump from Detroit and you try to wab up at the Cleveland Browns, right? Right. And milk plum wasn't on the same wavelength with his linemen that Bobby Lane was. And they wanted to get milk involved in some of this manipulation of the point spread and they'll told them to get lost. And these guys were upset about it. They didn't like Bobby Lane's replacement, because he wouldn't allow them to to bet on the games and fix the point spreads. It was it was a different world. I mean, it's it's you have a situation where back then, when the honest Detroit law enforcement establishment was really trying to root out the corruption in the city with regard to professional athletes and mafia guys. And the NFL basically saying you can't associate and they change their rules and they have put on these things on the in all the locker rooms where you can associate with gambling. We've gone from that when Alice Karris and Paul Horning were suspended for the gambling activity, we've gone from that to the Las Vegas Raiders who are who are right there in Vegas, who played last night and who you can't associate with them is when these guys go to the grocery store, they're they're associated with gamblers. That was just that's my say it's slippery slope, man. It's going to be so much gambling going on and NFL security, which has always been a a cover up operation, which is what it's going to be going into overtime on this because NFL security's job isn't to root out corruption and expose it to the public. Their job is to tamp down what's known about a scandal and to protect the multi billion dollar investments in the NFL team owners. Dan, real quickly, tell people we mentioned earlier, Len Dawson and Don Dawson and Hank Stram. This was the I think it was the 1970 Super Bowl the cheese versus the Packers. I question both Len Dawson, Lenny Dawson, even Hank Stram about that and Len Dawson and Don Dawson were not related just happened and they found Don Dawson's phone number on a piece of paper and Lenny Dawson's jacket pocket or something. They knew each other. They both admit they knew each other. Don Dawson was got very specific of me about certain players. But not about Len Dawson. And like I said, I spent a lot of time talking to Len Dawson and Len Dawson, who was accused the Kansas City Chiefs had more games go off the boards. In other words, a natural money showing up in the betting behavior on a particular game where they would be actually taken off the boards and no more money would be accepted on it because there was because it was suspicious activity. And Len Dawson insists that he took two polygraph tests that were, you know, he died a few years ago. God rest his soul. But he insists he took two polygraph tests, which cleared him of any long doing. But it was Len Dawson that they're referring to on the front line show along with Hank, Hank Stram, and another player I forget who it was a defensive bat. Yeah. And I, you know, Lenny Dawson, you know, he's he's the Rosetta stone of this whole world of players and gamblers and everything else. But I can't help but say that I like the guy. I liked him. He was a decent guy. He comes from I come from Akron, Ohio. He comes from Alliance, Ohio, which is nearby. And right in the middle is Kent State where I went to a graduate school. And so, you know, some of these guys are charming enough where they can, they can, you know, talk the way out on a slide. But Lenny Dawson has two polygraph tests. And I'm one of those people that thinks that polygraph shouldn't put you on the hook. But I think it should take you off the hook if you're passing. And I'm, I'm in my 40s, I would say, I don't, I would say most people my age, their point of reference for Len Dawson wasn't as the quarterback for the chiefs, but was as the, for me, it was as the host of NFL today, which used to be, that was inside the NFL, which was on HBO him and Nick Bonacati. I didn't, I remember it took me like, as a kid, my dad told me like, four or five years after I'd been watching that show, feeling, you know, those two guys you're watching, they used to be really good football players. I just thought they were broadcasters. Yeah, he was, yeah, I tell you, there's a, there was another guy too. Who was the guy, the great Detroit pitcher? Danny McClain? Danny McClain. I was on, I was during my book tour for interference. My book on pro football in the mob. I had, I Danny McClain asked me to be on a show. Yeah. So while I was in Detroit, I went, he had his little organ there, his little key, he would play and stuff. And I love Danny McClain. I thought he was just such a character and Danny is a, he's a real lightning ride around here because Is he still around? Yeah, so you have Danny, if you're there, I loved you. I thought you were interesting. But so Danny is obviously he's a legend here. He took us to the 68 World Series last pitcher to win 30 games. You can't deny the greatness. But the after baseball thing here in Michigan, he had to go to jail for stealing pension funds, which kind of bankrupted an entire city. I think he went back to jail for some other stuff that was in I don't think I knew about that. He was involved. Yeah. And then he was involved with the Goddies in the Gambino's involved with the jackalones. He was involved with Oh yeah. So he was right. He's got some checkered past. But as a as a athlete, he's beloved in Detroit. People will always remember what he did on that 68 title. Well, that's why I said he's kind of a lightning rod. On one on one hand, people revere him as an athlete. But then on the other hand, he's had all these problems since since he left the pro sports world and went into the media and other things. You just get people have really strong opinions around him over here. But the last thing I'll say and I want to get your take on it. I don't know if you've ever heard this. We talked about this, I believe in a previous episode recently. But Danny McClain missed a big chunk of the 1967 pennant race. This was the year before we won. And we finished one game out. One game behind the Boston Red Sox in 67 and and McClain missed I think three weeks of the pennant race. And he claims that he stubbed his toe, walking down a flight of stairs or something. But most people believe that he was not paying the jackalones on his bets, and that on a Labor Day excursion out on the Detroit River, he ran into Billy Jackaloni, who said to him, because Danny McClain was a little chunky, and he was from Chicago. And Billy Jackaloni allegedly said to him, I don't know how to do things in Chicago, fat boy. But in this city, we pay our debts. And then he took his boot, and he stomped on Danny McClain's toe and broke it. Does that fit with the Billy Jackaloni that you know? Or new? This is this a guy who's driving Hoffa to his fate. Yes, right. But this is just funny. And Billy and Tony Jackaloni, they were the guys that were, you know, like all these guys, big sports fans. And I know in Detroit, there's been a ton of dovetailing between the professional sports teams, not just with the Lions, the Tigers, dating back all the way to the purple gang, who had a lot of ends with Detroit Red Wings and Detroit Tigers, Hank Greenberg, Jack Adams, who was the head coach of the Red Wings, they used to go up to the prisons and hold charity softball games and charity hockey games because the purples would bring them there. And then Hank Greenberg was Hank Greenberg was very close like one of my heroes. They're not saying that he was shaving points or doing anything illegal. He was just very close with the Bernstein brothers, who were the head of the purple gang. They're my my cousins, my dad's or my grandpa's first cousins, or sorry, my great grandpa's first cousins would be my grandpa's third. So when you walk into a room at Thanksgiving, does the relative shut up? They say that these are not we gotta we gotta we gotta stay quiet. I grew up around it's funny, Dan, because I grew up around all this. And I just was so oblivious until I got interested in my mid 20s. And I was in law school. But I grew up around guys like Lenny Schultz and Alan health and Billy Jackaloney. And they were just my grandpa's friends. I didn't really it didn't move the needle with me that they were these kind of infamous where the tragedy the tragedy is now once again, that with the proliferation of of legal gambling, there's going to be the proliferation of illegal gambling and legalized gambling is going to cause the complete total destruction of college and professional sports. And that's that's that's the safe aspect you can make right now that this is going to be a disaster. In fact, it already is in many households, where I have friends going back to college days and everything else you believe that they were real experts on sports and they were they were people who knew names of our statistics, everything else who went out and started gambling betting, and they ended up getting their asses kicked. Yeah, and they owed money to people who were very bad news. And they ended up having to borrow money from their parents and everything started to get themselves out of a real jam and a jam where they could have gotten hurt very badly. And so that I think is going to be happening a lot right now. And I think that the there's going to be a law enforcement disaster that's going to come along with this as well. Well, thank you, Dan, so much for coming on. You were the man for, you know, he doesn't his reputation precedes him wherever he goes. Dan is the goat, greatest of all time, when it comes to Hoffa and when it just as a true crime journalist, like I said, his versatility is unmatched and it inspired me to not, you know, I don't consider myself just a mob reporter, I want to write about anything that's related to organized crime or true crime, politics, entertainment, sports, you know, traditional OC stuff, but Dan really kind of wrote the blueprint for how you do that as a true crime writer. And again, I'm trying to thank you, Dan, and we will see you next time on the OG.