 Okay, so being six o'clock on Monday, October the 2nd, 2017, we'll call it another regular Winooski City Council meeting. Ask that everyone please join us for the Pledge of Allegiance, led by Deputy Mayor Brian Corrigan. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, first up tonight is public comment, or excuse me, agenda review, which is an opportunity for us to review the agenda and make any adjustments that may be necessary. Tonight's agenda is, I hope, pretty straightforward, I don't think we have any items that need to be taken off the table. Any concerns or questions about the order? Not a terribly long one in terms of number of items, so, okay, very good. So we will move on to public comment. This is an opportunity for members of the public to address City Council about something that's not on tonight's agenda. It's also the part of the evening we remind folks to please sign in in the back as they come and go if you're going to speak to Council tonight. And I'm sure public comment, great. As of seeing and hearing none, we will move on to tonight's consent agenda. For consent agenda, we have two items. We have the approval of City Council minutes of September 18th, 2017. We also have approval of the payroll warrants from 910 to 923, 2017, and accounts payable warrants as of 929, 2017. I think everybody's okay to vote on everything. Do we have any recusals for any abstinations? Okay, so seeing and hearing none, I entertain a motion for approval of the consent agenda. Motion by Nicole, second by Eric, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed, motion carries, consent agenda is approved, this presented. City update. Thank you. Just a few quick things for tonight. We have a new intern working with our finance team or our finance person for the fall semester, Januka Kariya. She has been working with the city for a number of years. She was an intern in high school with us and has been the garden manager. She's at Champlain College in her senior year as an accounting major. So she's coming back to help Angela through the audit and budget, which is really exciting. She's awesome. We have a few events coming up, Winooski Wednesday, this Wednesday. The Devin McGarry Band will be here, it's supposed to be beautiful weather, last one of the season, it's Klanau. Halloween's coming up, you'll hear more about this through the event permit in a little bit, but this year will be Saturday, October 28th, it will be all focused downtown this year. So the Pumpkin Festival co-hosted with Season's Greetings, the Winooski Community Partnership. Angela is doing a haunted mill led by my web grocer and Brian Tarrant, $5 donation for teens and older kids, and then we'll have younger children events at VESAC as well. So it should be a great night in the city. What about adults? You got nothing. You got nothing. We'll still let you know the monkey has. And then I wanted to follow up really quickly on the Gamelin Court incident, I emailed you all and just wanted to follow up on that. So for those who haven't heard, we were repairing a water leak on Gamelin Court last Tuesday and as they were refit, after the repairs, they were refilling the hole, our backhoe slid into the hole. One of our employees did go to the emergency room, he's fine, he had stitches, he's back at work today, fully functional. We did self-report to VOSHA and they are doing an investigation, we're doing an after-action meeting this week to kind of go over what happened and put into place some process improvements. So it was quite a big deal that we're taking pretty seriously and we'll await a potential finding from VOSHA as well. That's all I really want to highlight today. Thank you very much. We're up to council reports. Let's see, can't remember which way we started last time. Mr. Down here? Nor do I. Just quickly, a couple pieces of news and interesting events to the half of the city that weren't necessarily formal city events, but great to see the peace event held a peace rally in the middle of the circle last week, probably had like 75 people attend, a nice turnout, a number of speakers and that effort continues. Again, primarily driven by sister Pat and she's got a number of other events that she's pursuing and they did receive another round of grant funding. So great to see that continue to thrive. And then we also attended last week the unveiling of the Wunewski Coalition, the Wunewski Coalition for a Safe and Peaceful Community has rebranded to partnership for prevention which is centered around preventing addressing preventable health concerns in the community. So great to see that group focused and doing great work. And then I just want to give a round of applause to everybody at the WCP for hosting a really cool event. Heard so much good feedback from the dog show yesterday. Just a great vibe down there. Couldn't have asked for better weather, especially a week apart from when we had a 90 degree day, but that was all powered by volunteers mostly doing good work. So really great to see when I commend them for a tremendous job. That's all I got. What part of that did you host? I got to smell dogs' breath and judge which one had the worst. They didn't ask me who had the best. So quite the duty, but it was awesome. I mean, we heard a lot of great feedback about things like the dog park, you know, we have a lot of residents who connect over their dogs and I will admit that there's probably 25 to 30 households in town where I can name the dog and not the owners. You know, you get used to meeting the canines, but great way for people to connect awesome community building. So really, really positive. Excellent. Nothing to report. I had to miss the community services commission meeting this month, but hope to get a download soon. I know they were talking welcoming city stuff, so more to report soon, unless Ray has any wants to add in my stead. You know, there's a really great discussion about the work plan and some of the prayers out there. It was a really good conversation. We got the full hour and a half and we passed on some feedback to Jesse on welcoming city policy, so it was a really good work. Good. And I should jump back. I'm really sorry to do this, but I just want to add we did have a both planning commission and a housing commission meeting in the last couple of weeks. Great housing commission meeting where you saw the group loosen up to have some real conversations, but Heather did a great job of delivering goals and deliverables over the next three meetings. I mean once a month at the moment and over the next three meetings, they have a big lift of coming back to us as that document that Heather provided entails with goals. And so then we can really dive into the policy levers that need to be pulled to get to those goals. And also a great conversation around I would say the skeleton and really looking at what the table of contents really looks like for the municipal plan. So great discussion about that on Thursday that resulted from looking at feedback from past surveys and also a good conversation amongst the planning commission. That work soldiers forward to. Okay. Anything else? Great. So seeing and hearing none, we will move on to regular items. So at first sight, we have approval for the resolution for small business Saturday. Year three, I think of this. Year two for me. Okay. So this one is a pretty straightforward ask. The city of Winooski has been invited to participate once again this year and demonstrating our commitment to our small local businesses by establishing November 25th, 2017 as small business Saturday. Small business Saturday draws national attention to the important role that small businesses play in boosting our economy, creating jobs and maintaining our neighborhood character. And staff would recommend approval and reading of the resolution of small business Saturday for November 25th, 2017. Awesome. Any questions or concerns before we do our reading? Any questions or concerns from the public? I guess I just have a question. This is earlier, I think this year than last year perhaps. It was the 26th. Not the date or approving it earlier. I'm just wondering if there's a marketing campaign or something that's going to go. So this is what happens when I receive an email and actually forward it versus waiting and doing it, writing it myself at the last minute, which is what has happened in years past. I forwarded this as soon as it came to Jesse and Heather and then jumped right on it. So you are corrected in the past. Pam that runs this usually pokes me a couple of times and say, hey, don't forget. Yeah. I think sometimes it's like a couple of weeks before. And then this feels very timely. So I didn't know if there were some other. The WCP's got, they get a marketing package around it and they do the stop and they usually set up a scout and hand out free bags. And usually try to coordinate like something charitable at the same time, coat donations or whatever I think they did previously. But I mean, now we have a communications person too. So maybe we can start to get that word out. Yeah. The city said. Any other comments, questions? Okay. So we'll read through the resolution establishing November 25th, 2017 as small business Saturday. Whereas the governor of new ski Vermont celebrates our local businesses and the contributions they make to our local economy and community. According to the United States Small Business Administration, there are currently 28.8 million small businesses in the United States. They represent 99.7% of all businesses with employees in the United States and are responsible for 63% of the net new jobs created over the past 20 years. And whereas the small businesses employ 48% of the employees in the private sector in the United States. And whereas on average 33% of consumers holiday shopping will be done at small independently owned retailers and restaurants. And whereas 91% of all consumers believe that supporting small independently owned restaurants and bars is important. And whereas 76% of all consumers plan to go to one or more small businesses as part of their holiday shopping. And whereas when you ski Vermont supports our local businesses that create jobs, boosts our local economy and preserve our neighborhoods. And whereas advocacy groups as well as public and private organizations across the country have endorsed the Saturday after Thanksgiving as small business Saturday. Now therefore the city of New Ski Vermont is hereby proclaim November 25th, 2017 as small business Saturday and urge the residents of our community and the communities across the country and other communities across the country to support small businesses and merchants on small business Saturday and throughout the year. Resolution establishing November 25th, 2017 as small business Saturday. I would maintain a motion to approve the resolution. So is that motion by Brian Corgan second by Brian Sweeney. Any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor please say aye. Aye. And those opposed? Motion carries. Yes. Thank you very much for your work on that. No problem. Okay. Up next we have the event permit for Festival of the Pumpkins and the city of New Ski holiday event. I'm going to ask Sally Tipson to come up and join me just in case you have any questions about this event. Although it's been going on for quite some time in the city. So it's a pretty familiar event. So as Jesse had alluded to, we've received the event permit application for the Festival of Pumpkins and a separate event permit application for the City Halloween event. I'm presenting them as one event permit application because I believe it is one event. Last year the Festival of Pumpkins was held in Rotary Park for the first time. The display of approximately a thousand jack-o-lanterns lit in Rotary Park drew community members and visitors to our downtown. This year the city sponsored portion of the event will be located at the VESAC both outside and indoors. So we are not competing with that event but it's one seamless event held downtown as opposed to being held at the O'Brien Community Center. We recommend approval of the permit and because the event is co-sponsored by the city, staff also recommends waiving the $200 Wrigley Park youth fee. We're going to get through a thousand Sally? Don't know. We go to the pumpkin patch for the first time this Sunday. Apparently they're in good supply. I understand the deer are also feasting on them. That's why we're actually are going a week earlier than we normally would. So we'll start the process this Saturday. Great. What was the number last year? It was close to a thousand. Didn't seem it because the park was so large. It didn't shrink Sally. And it is such a nice space. They said that people were amazed at what it was like because they had never been inside the rotary before and they were absolutely amazed that, you know, wow, this is really nice and it can be used for something and it worked out really, really well. It was by far I think the largest event or gathering that's ever been held there. So it was a real demonstration of what the space came in due that I think has been carried through the music this summer and some other events too. How did logistics work too for the group in terms of being able to load in and out and crossing guards? I think crossing guards, yeah, that all worked really well. The rotary I think is very safe, you know, and I think people have to be aware that cars do use it and they have to be a little diligent, but we did have crossing guards available for part of the time. But even without the guards, you know, you just have to be careful. But no, it worked well. I think the hardest part was taking the pumpkins out on Monday morning. Just this wasn't as easy as Smith Park where you could just put them on the sidewalk and the bucket loader would come and take them away. So, you know, that part was a little more difficult, but, you know, it worked. It worked. Any, any, so people can come and help pick? They can. We're going to meet at the VFW this Sunday at 10 o'clock. We welcome people to come. We are actually trying, we're going to try washing them or at least wiping them down in the pumpkin patch. It saves a lot of time once we start unloading and putting them on trailers. Our biggest thing right now are getting enough trailers to put the pumpkins on. But, you know, we're working on that part. This is actually our 15th year of doing pumpkins and we do have a chicken farmer, I think from Colchester, who's going to come and take some of the innards for the chickens. And we have a pig farmer that usually comes and gets some of them too. We have a lot of questions, you know, what do you do with the innards? And we have just people who like to take pumpkin seeds, which is perfectly fine. So we do need, you know, we will be needing a lot of volunteers. There will be a list on front porch form at some point of, you know, how people can participate, but it depends. And we need all the help we can get. That's great. And also, if somebody can't come out and bend their backs, candles and maybe even a contribution to season screening? We never refuse that. But we do need candles. We do need candy for the trick-or-treat things, but, yeah. Great. Anything else we're missing? I don't think so. And, you know, we certainly want to thank the city for their support of seasons greetings and parks and recreation. Joe Shaw's been great. And, you know, we always look forward to working with them and very helpful. When's carving? Carving is the weekend of the 21st in the 22nd, Saturday and Sunday, beginning at 9 o'clock on Saturday. We'll carve until about 6 o'clock. Sunday we start again at 9 and carve until they're all done. We'll set the senior center and then we'll set the pumpkins up on the 28th beginning at noon time and that's where we also need a lot of help, just unloading them and placing them and putting the candles in them and then at dusk lighting them and so if people can't, don't want to carve or whatever, there are other things that people can do. Awesome. It's an amazing event and inspiring to see all the energy and effort that you put into it year round and the amount of work that it takes no one understands how much time and energy and effort it takes. I come and help for little spurts of hours and leave exhausted from the weekend. I can't imagine the endurance it takes from you and all of this. It's a good group. You know, it's not a large group itself but you know, they do whatever is necessary to make sure that it works and each one has their own little niche that they're concerned about so it works out well. It's an amazing thing that so many people associate as one of their I mean, central pictures of what Winooski means to them as they're coming to the outside. That's good. Awesome job. Any questions for Sally? That's a fantastic event. Last year I had family that was in town visiting Winooski before so that was like welcome to Winooski. It's a really great to be able to have that event at this point of community pride. So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Any questions from the public? Quite public tonight. Very good. Alright, let me get our items correct. So I would entertain a motion for approval of both of it permits the application of the Festival of Pumpkins and the City Halloween event since they were broken out there. Motion by Nicole, second by Eric. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor please say aye. Aye. And those opposed, motion carries. Can I just add one other thing? None for the Festival of Pumpkins but one of the other events, Heather touched on it briefly but the event that's happening at the Champaign Meal is in addition and those of us who like Halloween I think it's going to be an awesome thing and it's going to be another element that, you know, other folks can participate in and they're doing theirs on three different nights. Friday, Saturday and then again on Halloween night where they're transforming the basement or the bottom floor of the Champaign Meal into a haunted haunted meal which is not for the faint of heart in my understanding. It's going to be PG-13 I think they're advertising it. I guess, you know, another element and it's just nice to see the whole event moving forward. And it's really, if I can just add to that, my understanding is that all the small businesses in the middle are each kind of taking a room and taking an area and performing it themselves so it's really interesting how the business community is coming out to support the community. And it's also, they're also charging a small fee and I think part of that is going to go toward the food shelf in Manuski. Awesome. Great. Nobody does Halloween like Manuski. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Hang out for the rest of me just for old time's sake. I was wishing I would be on the last of the agenda. Next time. You wanted to get together with me. Thank you. Awesome. Great stuff to look forward to. Okay. Up next is item C, discussion for consideration of engineering and planning and advance a potential spring bond vote for main street streetscape project and a pool facility. So I'm going to give a brief overview of this. You do have a memo in your packet and Ray and Paul and Heather are all here also to answer questions about the conversations we've been having as a leadership team. So this discussion really for tonight is solely a discussion. We're not asking for decision points about anything, but we have been so too we feel as a team that there are two kind of pressing emerging things happening that we felt an obligation to bring to you. One is that we are being encouraged by multiple funders to put together what they're calling a transformational main street project. So thinking about how we improve the total streetscape of main street as you enter the city down to the rotary obviously it's seeing a lot of development as a result of the form based code. The developers are seeing some conflict with the way the utility lines currently are and there's a real need to improve the streetscape to kind of signal to people coming in and out of the city that they've reached a neighborhood make it more of a place do more kind of making streetscape improvements. So we are getting a lot of encouragement to move forward quickly with preliminary engineering to try and apply for some grand deadlines that are coming up early in the spring. Concurrently we're hearing from, you heard from the pool committee a few meetings ago and we're hearing more from the commission and from others that we really need to figure out how to move that conversation forward. To move that conversation forward we need preliminary engineering plans. Right now we have massing scoping plans which we can't do true cost estimates based on. So in order to move both of these projects forward we've been having conversations about how do we plan for that over the next couple of months how much staff time do we have to dedicate to that, to those efforts and how do we move forward bringing engineers on to do 30% design documents for both of those efforts to try and get to an accurate an accurate cost picture and therefore recommend financing mechanisms to you all either through grants or a bond vote or whatnot. But because these are conversations that to some extent were involved in the priority setting conversations but it's a little bit of a turn from that we wanted to bring it to you tonight as a discussion item get your thoughts before we brought anything to you for an actual either vote or appropriation for funding for preliminary engineering or certainly well before we brought you anything actually around design or long term grant or bond vote options. You guys are welcome to come up and add to that if you have anything to add. Okay. So I think one thing that's really clear is we have a number of needs pressing upon us and pressing upon one taxpayer. I think what I see in this conversation is a real attempt to try to balance those expenditures to both support the growth and development we need to be financially sustainable to continue the vibrant community feel and keep up with some of the growth that right now is proving to be a little bit more motivated and challenged than we figured based off of what we've said we want to do on Main Street, Mouse Bay Avenue and East Island, particularly the Gateway District. At the same time there could not have been a more clear message sent from the community of the pool as an important priority as a community facility and as that there are a large number of people and we'll pretend to know polling numbers on it because that's not the way we do business. It's this body's job to make a decision based off of the feedback we get but that feel it's a really important part of Honuski's future in terms of the overall community benefit from again an important asset that benefits children's lives more than just as a body of water for them to dip into when it's hot right it's a community building facility and something that supports community vibrance in our neighborhoods. So I think we have before us something that has though real budget implications it's important for us to understand the fact that once we really send staff down this road that this is a really intensive project and it's very it's got a lot of twists and turns that fell on camera along the way and it's a timeline that's I think fair to say aggressive in terms of engineering and designing it so I think you do a great job in the memo of outlining what some of these goals are on both sides but interested for feedback and thoughts again the timelines are laid out in front of us but this involves a lot of communication from the five people here out to the public and that's what I think the key thing is that we're all signing up for with something like this you know we expect these guys to be the experts on to utilize experts when we don't have that expertise on staff to have technical knowledge at the table to execute the vision and it's really our job to communicate with the public and really be behind something so I think it's I do think it is important that everybody shows that we're substantially behind it we don't just wander into this I mean this is something we've been talking about for a long time and then we do the ground work to hopefully make sure it's supported should it come to that so okay that's enough for me Can I add one other thing I think it's important to remember it again we're not asking for any votes tonight this is really just to take temperature and get your thoughts and request for more information one of you know we I think as a staff team have heard a lot of interest in moving things forward kind of getting to decision points getting things going getting to construction and we can't or getting to funding options and we can't do that without true cost estimates moving forward quickly with preliminary engineering does not necessarily obligate us to apply for any grant or take any bond vote or do anything like that if we have preliminary engineering plans those can sit on a shelf and be ready when that grant opportunity presents itself those won't necessarily go out of date in the next two to five years so I think there's an even if we feel like as a community we're not quite ready to make that financial commitment I still think that there's a moment of opportunity to get to real recommendations about what these projects could look like and then potentially wait for an opportunity to present itself or something else to present itself so you know there's a lot of to the mayor's point there's a lot of sequencing here and there will be a lot of opportunities for people to weigh in and for you all to make decisions this isn't just we'll come to you next meeting with a vote and then it's done many steps in that process that's a good clarification because I probably made it sound more stop and go so yeah I think this is our we really start assessing out if there's concerns if there's questions that people have before they start to pursue getting in depth and bringing back a lot more information to open it up I'm definitely pro moving on the pool engineering to kind of get a pulse on the cost and moving on that and also with the main street transformation or whatever calling it there but my concern with the main street thing is I just want to make sure that you know we're getting I know it's hard to get like real commitments from those partners but like I want to be sure that before we start to invest as we're going through that process of figuring out what it's going to cost us to like really get the scoping done and the engineering for that that we have all buying from those funding sources to from the get go because I don't want to put a bunch of our own money in and devote a bunch of staff time and then two months from now three months from now whatever like that we'll be coming around to say oh we've moved to we decided that Morrisville was what we're looking at and so I don't know you know like I just want to make sure that they're running with us and that they're in it for the longer haul and that we're not going to sink a bunch of money in time and then they're going to bail out with something else that would be my main concern with that but as long as we can kind of get some preliminary commitments and whatever that looks like something some show of support around it then I'm absolutely for it I mean I feel like we had like real issues with power lines with peaking duck like that was like a big issue and we started to see that like that cost was really hard for developers to bear so it could make sense that that same situation is transferring on to other gateway projects so you know it all lines up so nicely as we're coming into budget season talking about how to support future grow the other piece that the power lines are one tiny portion of it I think that every excavation happens along main street of any sort whether it be digging and trenching new power lines across or anything you're going to run into aging infrastructure costs and to my mind that says from a planning management that's as scary as anything that a whole bunch of untouched undug up sewer and water and stormwater drainage that we know from the projects that are happening now that when they look what's there it's more often than not a big surprise and it's not what anyone counted on so I think that when you start to have these sequential projects happening down main street the kind of varied surprises that if we're addressed in a larger big fell swoop project would be addressed in a way that's I think efficient and not piecemeal which is again to my mind that the electric lines or the power lines and the utilities are one thing but then the underground unseen potential problems are another ball of wax that I don't know that we have any handle on but a larger project the transformational project would address that I think quite handling and just add to that I think one of the things that our team is conscious of is if we can pull this off and get to preliminary engineering that lays out a financial path to us leveraging state and federal funds to offset the local cost to this and we end up doing this project that's signaling to developers that we are invested in this gateway corridor and it's also taking some of the costs that they could incur some of those risky costs off their plate onto these subsidized plates which means they can maximize the development on each parcel one of the things I think we're seeing through what's coming in right now for permitting is that they're saying this big cost to moving the power line so we're only going to build two stories or we're not going to do that stretch to the energy goal because we have this associated development cost in the public infrastructure so really I think that right now we have a belief but again we want to go through these steps to test this assumption that some public commitment to putting together that transformational project will maximize the development potential of that mile of road someone that's currently renovating a 70 year old house I can tell you if you open something up you can expect a lot of unknowns so it's even don't touch it or go all out on it also as we're going through this process if it continues to move forward I just want to make sure that as these things are coming back to us that we're getting the kind of options and how it affects the tax payers either all running together or separately and I just want to make sure that we kind of get those options as we're going through as obviously as early as possible but I don't want to get to the end and feel like we're stuck in one channel of taking it all at once I just want to make sure that we have it kind of all together but also separate so that we can see our options basically and just there's implied benefits to potentially financing projects together in terms of cost of funds through the different funding sources you mean? Yes and generally in the work of potentially having to do a bond that could include both for example I'm not sure exactly we were asking if we bond together there are a lot less kind of overhead costs associated with that joint bond That's what I was asking Yes, that is true There are also I think in this particular case advantages to other funding sources leveraging each other against each other that what we're hearing from the funding source partners is that they've had proven success in the last couple of years doing this project and they're given credit from those that they go to for money for leveraging other dollars as well so instead of you know just leveraging you know $2 million and I'm not going to throw out real numbers tonight but X number of dollars so I won't say you can say too X number of dollars of clean water-evolving loans they're doing that in conjunction with Y dollars from somebody else and therefore leveraging a much bigger project to support than a smaller project to support which I think they are seeing as an advantage on this particular project I think there is also important you know Paul talked to us a lot about this important economy is a skill to look at on kind of a main street project about excavating once so one of the things we're going to start seeing and we've seen this in front of 380 for for example that people are going to start excavating a lot randomly not randomly but as the development happens and if we're asking them to excavate to connect and excavate to vary lines and pave and repave and repave there are associated costs with every time you go into the road like that as opposed to doing it all at once and just I hate to do this old person at the table when we redid Valence Bay Avenue there was a limit to how much we had to spend and we did not go down and as a result we do find ourselves digging things up that we just spent quite a bit of money to surface which is a little frustrating I understand the decision the way it was made that's what they could afford to do at that point in time with those funds but the whole concept of digging it up to replace stuff that it had exposed and available for you to correct is a little painful which is kind of not to say that it would never have to be touched again there's a lot of reasons to limit that in any way shape or form it's always been kind of a dream for us will there be upgrades done at the same time to support future buildings? I don't know if you need more lines of some sort for something for potentially larger buildings are we just redoing infrastructure and the assumption that everything is going to develop as like form-based code would predict I think that at least in the side we weren't going on a conceptual drawing and the conceptual drawing for example would account for power cabinets at a regular interval that would have the capacity to hold overhead infrastructure within it for any scale which currently we don't have that capacity the new the project as imagined would take into account increased storm water potential or decrease depending on sidewalk and green belt with but increased wastewater water capacity so anything that the code have done projects like this before where we built the capacity of the code so the code has its maximum build out scenarios the infrastructure would be able to handle that and that would be what the preliminary engineering study would kind of put into scope and work I'm having a hard time understanding the connection with the pool and it's and so is there funding available for the engineering on the pool or is the new information about funding opportunities really about this main street project so the new information about funding opportunities is about the main street project we have not heard the same kind of funding opportunities for just straight up pool municipal infrastructure although we will certainly explore those as we have real cost estimates how why we see these linked is two things one they are at similar we think that they are at similar places in their need to move forward both of them need to get from kind of conceptual ideas to preliminary engineering and then they are both needs in that they would require significant municipal either match or payment and therefore a bond vote so if they're kind of right now moving at the same track we need to think about them comprehensively and their impact to the city as Brian was suggesting what is that impact to the taxpayer so instead of moving one forward without thought of the other we felt like it was very important to advance them at the same time so the council can make that call that kind of political policy call about do we do them together do we sequence them what are the financial leverage points that we have at our disposal but we need to put that information before you at the same time that's how we see them as connected but the funding opportunities to leverage local dollars with other dollars is really about the main street project and because I was not on the council when the gateway districts where was originally sort of conceived and discussed was this type of a major transformation of main street part of the vision that the city would be taking that the discussion was that there are a number of ways that you get to that and there's either something like this or you piecemeal it or you collect incremental funds as projects go along that go into a city that eventually results in something like this happening we did not there were no decisions made that was really a let's set the vision those people were not people because those questions came up how do we do this those were the solutions as I recall them being discussed on that committee I remember conversations about having concern about everything happening piecemeal where it's one project goes and then the next project is whatever and kind of what we talked about one project goes and we're going to dig up and then we see what contribution the city has to pitch in to fix whatever they're into for just their development to go and then the next one the same thing happening so I feel like for me and I think maybe I won't speak for the rest of the group at the time I remember having those concerns in this larger like transformational project seems to like take care of a lot of that stuff obviously there's a larger cost associated with it but I feel like it's actually going to like move the gateway vision I guess I'm just worried about now there's potentially this competition for the pool for a really nice main street and people have been talking about the pool for a year and a half this is very new I don't know that the community has weighed in on this is a vision for main street and a priority for community investment so that's why I wondered was that part of the community discussion that yes we want to do this as a city and make this kind of investment because that's definitely the conversation with the community around the pool and I don't want to set up a situation where we're feeling like it's one or the other I think so I guess the way I look at it is I strongly believe the community did vote and participate in a large discussion about form-based code I wouldn't say vote that's not fair but participate in a really long, robust conversation about what we wanted the streets to look like and to me actually it's a little bit frustrating about it as you can see some of the buildings going up but the two just opposed pictures in the package this is really what people were I don't want to say promised but this was the vision we set up with that that's what we put in place so part of the connection to me about the two is right now of these larger capital projects that we have had conversation about I feel like this is the streetscape one is one that's been really, really well vetted more so at this juncture than even frankly parking or a city hall project the form-based code process was we spent two years plus on that prior to that you had a planning commission going back six years that were taking groups on walking tours and talking I can remember Seth Gilliman taking groups up mainstream saying what should this look like and then comparing it to other communities back at the community center to talk about it and these are all those components all that work over those years has gone into this and created that vision and then I just see it as it's our job to figure out how to execute it and how to make it happen and those have been the ways discussed from a financial standpoint as we talked about before there's either that piecemeal that collection of funds that then include sprints and I'll say too I don't think this in any way suddenly alleviates the requirement not the idea but the requirement that we have a discussion about impact fees too in the course of this and I don't think that that's lost or that this removes that completely where it's the public picking up a tab for infrastructure work that might get paid for there's still plenty of space for that conversation to be held as well so I guess just a slightly different perspective of I do feel like this was part of a really long robust public process that had a lot of participation you know I don't know that it's well I think it's our job to figure out how to fund it I think it's our job to decide how we want to put it before people and they can tell us no and then the administration cost associated with doing two different fundings for two projects and splitting them up if we're going to be able to do two if we can wrap it into one that's obviously preferable from just the cost of funds perspective there's my pitch yes and it's also easier to organize sometimes support for something when it's like here's this pool versus like potentially all these pipes you're not going to see amorphous transformation so you know I just that's helpful background because we haven't been talking about a main street revitalization project we've been talking about a pool and city hall and parking I think just is it if it's fair to say or maybe you could talk a little bit about the climate from funders or concerns about sure so there's so I will get to that you know I want to also say I think you're right I think of some of these other conversations have we've more since I've been here we've been having more publicly you haven't heard me talk about main street yet I think the other side of that though is that if we are a growing city that is going to support infrastructure like a new pool, like a new community center like things like that we have got to have the most strategic grand list growth we possibly can have to support that and one of the ways we do that is through these kind of big street transformational projects so again I think there's that connection of why they're related I think if we simply build a city hall and build a new pool and build an updated community center we're not that's not going to spur the grand list growth we need to see or doing those three big projects I just wanted to so what we're hearing from our state and federal partners is that again they've had some proven success specifically in St. Albans and St. Johnsbury in the last couple of years doing these kind of joint projects and they're getting a lot of praise from their funders from their federal funders and from their state funders for doing these big leveraging projects so they're not just kind of piece-mealing funding very small projects but leveraging their funding together for bigger projects the funds they're specifically talking about you know the state funds are a little more secure and likely will continue and those are specifically the funds allocated to the water and the wastewater infrastructure at the federal level they're talking about funds that are currently already allocated so in the existing federal budget where there is some uncertainty that they will be there in the future and so again we have this moment of opportunity right now to go after funds that are already identified when there's some question marks about the future additionally you know we have heard from the president that there will be some kind of infrastructure bill so if that is the case if there is some opportunity for infrastructure funding in the future again having preliminary engineering plans ready to go so you're more of a shovel ready project presents an opportunity that's kind of the climate essentially we're you know we're hearing there is an opportunity now we want to support Winooski Winooski has proven success doing big projects in the last decade we trust this city to get things like this done hurry up and put some things together and come to us and present it it looks pretty good you know certainly I think Brian's point is good you know keeping them very close to this process and making sure that there's that continued commitment will be important can I have more? please in terms of the crossing need for this it's not only about maximizing the grand list growth and ensuring that we have the density and the vision the community was looking at there's also potential there's a couple of different developers talking about coming up with odd configurations and things like that to avoid utility lines so there's a long term aesthetic that could happen if we do a piece meal as opposed to providing the infrastructure and so the implications for that on what the community has kind of been promised if you will through the community visioning could be pretty negative as well so it's not just that we have funding available it's that if we don't do something we may end up with something that was not as planned so I have some significant concerns you mentioned that the presidents soon to arrive infrastructure bill and a lot of speculation has been put into the fact that it will actually result in a pretty significant cutback to infrastructure funding potentially for municipalities which would drastically impact our ability to leverage outside funding potentially in the future as if we did put off some of these projects I do think it is very important to be sensitive to the fact that this would have a significant impact on the tax base here but the grand list growth that could result in the infrastructure improvements along the that gateway I do think offsets that and I do think fits into that vision of moving forward with form-based code and how we build out those gateway districts I also do think it's been said over and over again the community need that has been voiced around the pool and I do see there being a theoretical connection to the two of them as well outside of kind of some of the administrative costs that we are avoiding by bundling and there is also the theoretical concept that both of these things fit into this vision of a livable and healthy city together go ahead the city hall needs what's your I mean the study was done and it seemed to indicate that this building was not you know the updating this building investing more into upgrading or improving the space particularly at the police department was not the best approach the better approach was to where do you see city hall in terms of the needs of this facility and whether that would be impacted by this in some ways that a less of a priority for you as you assess building priorities so certainly there are some huge challenges with this building and this space for the city I think that we do mention that in the other considerations that the reality of trying to pull off multiple big capital projects in the same time period both from a financial standpoint you know be able to pull those off financially with the tax base to support it and from a kind of staffing project management is a reality and as a concern and as a conversation we had as a staff team about are we okay pressing pause on a city hall discussion for a couple of years to advocate to move forward with a pool main street discussion and what we came to was that yes that that is that we think from a staffing perspective that if we could solve this main street utility challenge and really improve this gateway this entry point to our city create a new space and put the pool back on the options for our community that that's more important immediately than solving our space needs in the next two or three years having said that I think we would be very quickly you know if we are successful with this I think we would be coming back very quickly to the council and the community in year two or three of that project to start picking up that city hall conversation again another challenge and one of the things we will be thinking about as we outline financial options for you all is the impact to the Orion community center if we press pause on that conversation the challenge of the OCC continues and there will be a financial impact to that that will be somewhat mitigated if we can successfully locate a child center there and have a better comprehensive use of the building but there will be a cost impact to that and that will be part of what we would hope to lay out for you as you make financial decisions about moving forward with either of these projects or both of them but I think yes to your point yes it de-prioritizes city hall these two projects de-prioritize city hall for us immediately and the hard part about all this is we spend and focus those resources number one we are not going to be able to do it all at once and we could manage that as was said before if we wanted to and the reality is there is always there is always some sense of well what if we had done it the other way and we are all that is something that any decision we make we are going to have to develop but that is part of the gig and I am not a hundred percent I hear a lot of your concerns and I feel similarly with the big the amount of additional outside funding that we can leverage for the main street project is very incentivizing for me I think it would be a much different conversation for me if there wasn't that potential funding on the table I am not expressing concerns I am just asking questions because I think it is new at home who may have been following different tuning in the last six months different conversations I appreciate I appreciate absolutely identifying the opportunity and making sure that we are having a well informed conversation I guess for me I was troubled with putting my head around when you talk about changing main street like how far do you think these funds are going to go are we going to be able to reconstruct that entire from top to bottom or are we going to end up piecemealing it anyway and put ourselves in a bigger financial situation than we want it to be in the beginning with that is a good question so again what we are being told right now is they are not interested in the two big funders we spoke with they are not interested in a piecemeal project we started talking about we could do a $3 million project on Lafayette or if it is not $10 million we don't want to talk about it they really are looking for a $10 to $15 million project which are very rough back of the envelope calculations with that essentially mile of road between the city line and the railroad bridge and it is the gateway and is where we are seeing development and is where we are having these conversations with developers and is where we have significant crosswalk needs significant pedestrian needs we already have transportation alternatives grant $360,000 that we could leverage into this project so we already have pieces of it so I think our hope would be to stay far away from piecemealing it and if we are going to do it rip off the band aid and do it and then my other concern as I was listening was how much of that one mile stretch of road have we already done a lot of the infrastructure stuff or slip lining and all the other things that we have allotted money for over the last few years I don't remember if mainstream was a large portion of that or if it was just pieces going I don't really remember but I just wonder how much of that would end up being compromised and have to be replaced just because of the project itself that's an excellent question and I don't know the answer to that we'll come back with that I'm going to pass it against the noddle a lot there's every piece of the surface of main street that you can if you block it tomorrow is age it's not the pavers are old most of the concrete is old so having blocked it a number of times in every possible weather condition it's it's a for the most part and then take that the experience of the projects that we're seeing 348, 394 and then across the street 401 and tiny tie down the street if you take those and you look at what they're covering in terms of their other things you start to get a picture well I started working as in this role about a year and a half ago probably not a single week has gone by that I haven't spent a good portion of my time dedicated to infrastructure on main street how we're going to resolve new development with infrastructure conflicts I think the first conversation I had with Jesse which he was hired was about this topic by the last one I had with her on Thursday last week was about this topic so so you have a meeting tomorrow morning with her so we've talked a lot about some of the infrastructure improvements I mean here obviously there's the opportunity for some significant transportation improvements as well for sidewalks the roadways themselves the bike lane as well I was wondering if you could just talk me through a little bit of that or if there are thoughts around those areas sure so we would be looking to essentially hand the engineer who would do the preliminary engineering the transportation master plan which speaks to the main street quarter in a number of different ways so obviously pedestrian improvements crosswalk bump outs narrowing the travel lane, expanding the walk likely have I believe it's a downhill bike lane on main street and an uphill bike lane on weaver street to really have that network that bicycle network not just not every street network but we have a lot of that initial thinking done through the transportation master plan it's really you know we've kind of started this conversation by talking about it's really a matter of like how we get to action how do we get to a shovel in the ground that conceptual plan through the transportation master plan and the form based code we really need those engineering plans to be able to make a financing recommendation so that's what we'd be looking to do and again we do have that 360,000 from the transportation alternatives grant specifically for those four crosswalk areas along main street which could be leveraged into this opportunity thanks another piece of item I just put for in there and I think is actually many ways the most exciting piece that haven't been mentioned but it's the stormwater piece that any new infrastructure that would be the totality of main street would obviously sharply or incredibly mitigate stormwater runoff concerns that if the street were built as green infrastructure as opposed to the way it's built now the stormwater runoff into the river and the Lake Champlain would be tremendously mitigated and I think that from my understanding that funders are as excited about something like that as well as we as a community should be as well because I think all over the country everyone else has beautiful green infrastructure and somehow in Vermont we don't have a whole ton of it it would be a, Winooski would be cutting edge in terms of that main street where to be transformed into basically a stormwater solving issue rather than promoting issue it would be transformational in many ways not just a better place to walk and be safe with your kids and what not. If you go to St. Albans right now it's a current example where some of these same people played together and resulting in just that progressive infrastructure that's supporting some of the growth that's taking place there that they've been lauded for right place though. Other questions or concerns about this in terms of I think what's been laid out is the proposal to come forward next time to you know look at funding some of that background work that needs to be done so it's not a question that has to be answered tonight but anybody else want to express concerns before we I just want to make sure we don't lose sight of the pool in the whole conversation and that my understanding what I think is being proposed is you know contracting with an engineer firm to look at both projects or would it be separate firms? It would likely be separate engineering firms. Gwestin and Sampson has already done a lot of work on the pool so there's some interest in keeping them on board so they don't repeat work they've already done and then bringing on another firm to really focus on the main street project that would require you know engineers who can design water systems and paving systems and streetscape systems so it would likely be two sets of engineers but they would run in parallel so really there's no connection between the two things other than the general timing. Right the time frame. In terms of the potential funding mechanism could be the same the bonding the larger funding mechanism. It went to the residents of Winooski with a price tag for something it could be that it's whatever the city contribution is to a main street revitalization project and a pool for a single bond correct correct and and very often and you know I think we I owe it to you all also to we've talked about this a bit to give you some more information on kind of those funding mechanisms and bonding and whatnot very often municipal bond votes are collections of projects so you'll do a street and a wastewater line at the same time for example it's different it's in the municipal budget it's different funding sources and this would be too it would touch the water enterprise fund and the wastewater enterprise fund and the general fund and whatnot but it's the same it's the same mortgage essentially that you're taking out against the money. This was a really useful conversation I really it's very helpful to ask so thank you for being patient with a slight curve ball. So the exit 16 project is supposed to happen at some point to your answer the double diamonds just to keep an eye on that so right now to jack up the road from the circle to stay with changing so right now that's on schedule to happen next summer so it actually might be a good I don't think we want to be under construction at the same time so it might be good phase for them to complete that work you know next summer and likely into the following spring and then us to pick up from there I'm just laughing because it's supposed to be next summer if we can slide ours in beforehand that's right this has been a decade long conversation on the double diamond I see the gas pump there though anything else anyone anything else from the public regards this conversation thank you all very much for the thoughtful conversation and I think too like Jesse said this is the first time for a lot of people so I encourage you to send questions that pop up along to Jesse okay so with that we'll move on to next item which is FY19 goal setting so at your last meeting you adopted a FY19 budget schedule the first count after the adoption of that schedule the next action for the council was to have a discussion around your FY19 financial goals this will help us as we develop the budget to propose to you at the beginning of December so I've outlined in the memo some key questions for you those are what is the council's tax rate goal FY19 what are your priority areas to fund given that we may need to identify cuts what are your priority areas for service reductions and are there any new initiatives and programs you would like us to consider as we build up the budget our initial recommendation of the budget is to present to you a level services budget that provides resources for the strategic policy goals and strategies that we adopted as a team that's where we currently are but we welcome your thought and response to these questions in addition to that table setting we've also outlined for you a few data points including the last five years of municipal tax rate school rate and voter approval and then a few bullet points about impact 1% tax rate impact in FY18 gets us the city $51,000 of new property tax a million dollar add to the grand list gets us about $10,500 of add to property tax so just things to keep in mind as we think about those potential ads or cuts we do have some initial assumptions going into building the budget right now Angel and I are planning on building a budget around a 2.5% as you know last year it was 2.7% we only budgeted for 1.5 so had a pretty big impact there starting FY18 so because we're seeing that shift a little we want to be a little more conservative about that we're likely going to do pretty modest grand list growth for a meeting as a team with the assessor on the 5th to systematically walk through the permits pulled and try to make some educated guesses about that grand list impact on April 1st and then of course from our health connects rates likely will increase the state approved a 9.2% increase to Blue Cross Blue Shield which is our major plan but we are meeting with our broker on October 13th to review what our rates will be specifically just to give you kind of a preview of what we're thinking about additions we're thinking about if you've seen my white board deal these will be familiar to you we need a comprehensive IT solution we've talked about that before likely to have short and long term impacts as we move forward if we move forward with the regional dispatch conversation we are putting some thought into what interim staffing model looks like for given that we would lose some coverage here in City Hall what expanded but not quite 24-7 coverage would look like we are talking about a salary contingency line which is something I've done in the past where you essentially fund a contingency line but don't fund it in people's budgets to ease the burden as contracts expire the FOP contract will expire at the end of June and additionally we very much need to do a non-union wage classification that we have that's been outstanding for a while we have an interest in doing a modern website with the branding materials we are in the process of developing we have a discussion ongoing about how to provide some additional regional mental health support to meet the goals we recently adopted which is a pretty small ask and then additionally there's the capital improvement plan potential needs so that's kind of our list we want to put out there but of course this is really about what your what your tolerances, what your ideas are, ideas for high level ideas for ads or cuts and what your guidance to us is what kind of budget you would like us to see delivered on December 4th I'm really sorry these two conversations are following one another as well super unfair to you and we have something on for approval but obviously this is a discussion I know too I would, I put it on for approval because it will be easier if the discussion becomes a discussion about a specific tax rate goal it will be easier for us if that's voted upon if it's solely a discussion about what you all are individually interested in that's very helpful as well and I would highly encourage tonight to be a discussion and not try to set a tax rate goal for this evening while sitting around this table that's not good policy frankly but good conversation in the last to get out there that's something we usually take like a month and a half to get to and it is smart to try to give some kind of sense and goal because what happens too often, not too often but the way our budget the way our budget process is designed is we start with the net zero impact taxpayers with as much of a level service as possible developed by staff and then as we work through the cut and add bliss you start to get a sense of where people are at but having an upfront conversation is going to try that out this year great but I'm not sure if this is the record so I think the first thing is to make sure we're on the same page over the processes because this says the staff's recommendation is to present a level service budget not in that impact net zero impact to the taxpayer those are different approaches sorry I was right perhaps not clear and writing this it's definitely not clear that's what staff is originally the first step of the staff process is to provide to Angela and myself a level services budget and then as a team we get down to the net zero impact to the taxpayers that's my lack of clarity sorry you can do it a different way though I think the process that we've used to date works I like it I think it forces very difficult conversations and potentially if it doesn't work then we need to know that but I do think it does cause us to lay out what our priorities are and be really clear about that rather than we're just going to keep doing the same thing every year recognizing inflation is inflation and the next thing you know there's pretty significant tax impacts and we haven't been really clear about what the goals and priorities are so as painful a process as I think sometimes it is last year was certainly a painful one I think and it still apparently wasn't painful enough because you had to walk in and started from a place of where the COLA estimates were not right so I don't think it's always a pleasant exercise but I do think it's important I think this is really a chance frankly for counsel the way in a little earlier than typical what typically happens is really and this isn't to make it sound like it's a bad process but typically staff kind of takes the marching orders and come back with a net zero impact budget and they kind of go and again the language is going to come up but they go and bake they get to the point they make really hard conversations decisions themselves and at the cutting board and have those those intense meetings themselves before it even comes so there's already been so much stress and yeah stress put into it that I think this is an opportunity this is the way I'm seeing it for counsel the way in a little earlier in the process of by the way before we go for that entire exercise is there something you're going to reach back and pull back I'll be honest you know two years ago we for the first time started tracking on the side of the sheet what changed and documenting it what had happened before was it was just changed and the number was changed we didn't know what program maybe was eliminated and you could pass a budget and it's not that there wasn't thought put into it but as we sat here and it happened a couple times budgets were passed where there wasn't a total understanding of the implication because a number had been reduced as a result of a meeting that took place among management and staff and it was very thoughtfully done but it wasn't totally understood so we added the column that says hey by the way what changed like explain to us oh this number is dropping and it's not just because it's magically dropping it's because we're eliminating this as a result of it so we're also understanding what hard decisions they had to come to so this is like to me the next step in evolution of that process a little bit is a positive opportunity to give feedback and I think just to add to that for a moment you know these are really hard conversations and we are also building a budget with three months into a fiscal year with very little information you know we won't have the rates for next fall COLA does change significantly you know I think it changed significantly I don't think that was a wrong assumption where COLA was in October what was that 2016 and we have very different information in June 2017 but I think what happens when you don't have this kind of council conversation about where there's tolerance for ads or reductions is that you get our priorities and we will try and interpret those priorities based on our shared strategies and goals but it's helpful to us to know what are your deal breakers or what are your absolute haves or what are the things you're kind of like yeah we could there might be some room there to talk and that kind of that's the guidance that's useful to us as we go through those difficult conversations because you know those are often conversations about our co-workers livelihoods and our ability to deliver on things we're really that we spend 40 hours a week thinking about and we're really excited about and so some kind of temperature from you about those areas for priority or help I'll go I want to ask you what I'm going to say the same thing I said last year I really want us to shoot for no increase to the tax rate I think that should be the ultimate goal and I'm going to keep on that like I did last year and hopefully we're going to have some more of our conversations I think it's going to be a good exercise but I think we need to keep in mind there's other factors out of our control that burden on the same tax payers like the school I don't know what's going to happen there but I imagine maybe we do know what's going to happen there but really for me as far as priorities I think the conversations I may be willing to have are ads that contribute to grantless growth, economic development things that are going to drive more money in to offset the money spent and I know I got a hard knock last year with just upgrading emails and things like that coming back to us I think again where the pitch for me might be able to stick is if if we can show that increasing these efficiencies for staff because I know that we put a lot on a limited number of people so if there is a way to increase efficiencies so that time can be better spent on moving on the programs or implementing things that we've been talking about if there can be proof as possible but a good argument to show that this will contribute to something else happening I think I may be willing to at least have a conversation around it but I think we need to look really strategically at any ads that may come to us as we need to see I personally need to see a real monetary benefit to those extra expenses so that's going to be the kind of lens I guess that I'm going to be looking at through this year I think we all look at it through that lens every year probably anyway but that just really is going to be the first and the last for me can you tell me what what index you use on the COLA is that CPI or what what index is used yeah it's CPI it's the services index or is it the CPI because that CPI is more conservative I think than the government goods and services I think that's a benchmark that makes a lot of sense to me I've liked the fact that we've stayed at or around 1% and I think it's not unreasonable to be using a benchmark of CPI as a relative of a relative relative indicator of reasonable growth I think we are trying to become more competitive in terms of our compensation packages for employees so that we are able to you know I think we've made some absolutely phenomenal hires and I think that's been key to really getting a lot accomplished and so I don't want to continue to tie our hands in terms of our ability to attract and retain really top notch talent that said I think you know I'm definitely in agreement with Brian and I appreciate the discussion we just had because I think we do need to be extremely strategic in the investments that we make and that they ought to be pointed toward growth and I want to then have my caveat of I think that needs to be growth for everyone not which you know requires a certain level of government intervention so so you know I think I guess my message is I'd like to see evidence of real strategic thinking both in terms of how we're managing the resources we have aligned with the goals that we've set for this here and the people that we're hiring and asking to do specific pieces of the work and looking for identification of areas in which you know we've been making these investments and we're not really clear that they are you know high leverage or I mean I don't feel well equipped to evaluate current areas where we're investing and I want to make sure we're continuing to focus on the pool and just to carry that conversation we just had forward into this one I don't want to lose that in the mix just for those at home CPI's consumer price index it's how much stuff costs and stuff does not cost the same every year so we make adjustments about our assumptions about what things cost so that we're looking ahead and saying the same pound of salt that last year is not going to cost the same as that pound of salt will cost this year that's a bad example because we do three year contracts in that but just generally that gets the idea across and ideally the grand list is growing in a right way you don't have to increase the tax rate every year in order to keep up with I would love to agree with that I think the number was this year the state's health care costs increased by $376 million meanwhile overall revenues increased by or the overall budget increased by $283 million which means the state cut around $85 million of programming solely because it was trying to keep up with inflation and health care costs so it's not a relationship that's working right now but was that clear? that was very helpful I think in that vein ensuring that those areas that need to be evaluated with that lens is incredibly important whereas there are some areas that don't looking at an expense and saying is this expense going to bring the city more economic value than the expense than what we're spending is there a significant impact that this expense is making some areas like programmatic areas aren't going to have that that's really important we provide to our residents and I wouldn't want us to look at all those areas with that lens and then we're cutting programs and services especially for many of our lower income residents because it doesn't fit that model of value so I guess that would be my only asterisk and sort of there and that being said too I'm sure all department heads are doing this but I want to make sure that we're not just assuming because something has been going a certain way it just kind of floats by we should scrutinize everything even the stuff that seems seems like maybe we couldn't do without or we just haven't known it differently or you know we just brush over it because it's not high profile or not new or not super old but I just want to make sure we look at everything and really reflect deeply on that to make sure that we're identifying all opportunities for the people that sounds like a T-shirt yeah keep it low keep it low for the people are we going to see that on a sign? yeah on a hat he's going to hand out hats I think we have to put that on top of every presentation yeah we just went through that pretty significant strategic planning process too so for thinking about cuts or ads in certain areas having to do so with the lens of in what way is this building towards this area of the strategic plan or if we are cutting this out in what ways are we inhibiting progress towards this area of the strategic plan would be really helpful for us in the decisions that we're making throughout that process I think a good frame to view it on my staff for going through that that initial stage they did a great job of taking every answer that I was going to give you and being concise with it my perspective on it was going to be let's really take a 20,000 foot view of our strategies and what our future entails here in the city and just try to go in on needs that are going to be developing that we aren't even quite aware of right now I mean I remember the people from the fire department are from the commission from that group we're very passionate about specific fire trucks because we don't have we wouldn't be able to meet certain needs and so on and so forth and I think we discuss other avenues to get the fire trucks here and so on and so forth but that type of passion around making sure that we're not developing past our ability to protect our citizens as well I think it's extremely important so while I agree with everything that was said here at the table I think we're at that stage of that tipping point of saying what are we going to do as a community and can we in fact police it can we protect it and can we serve it I get to go to lots of planning meetings lots and lots of planning meetings and I think the thing that's had me most excited over the last couple weeks because this concept of creating a roadmap for the community's futures has been really important it's been a really well expressed desire and priority from this council but as I look at the questions that we have to answer throughout that process I'm drawn and really impressed with how much outreach we've done and how much we know about what the community desires are and that's because we've spent a lot of time frankly asking people what they want and frankly I think that they've answered us and in some areas I think they've answered us enough times that some action is required so I will not mince words in saying that last year the proposal I was really proud that we brought forward the low increase that we did bring forward but whether or not I was authorized to say it or not what I said to tax players I believe we are doing this because we also understand that there are capital projects and there are large items that we have outstanding we have taken time to incrementally build the staff back up to a level that I understand it's not ideal but it never will be there will never be enough people here to do all the work that could be done all the good work that could be done it's just not possible so in that vein I will say that my priority coming into this is to see some of these big projects we just talked about the pool of Main Street to see investment in those areas I feel like we have worked so hard to get to a place where we can actually achieve and look at some of those projects realistically and be able to pay for them in a way that does not totally bankrupt the city and that's not a place we were six, seven five years ago so I think the timing is right for it for the ask for a relatively significant investment in some of these larger projects that people have told us again over years and sometimes decades are surely needed and I also think that keeping with the vein that was brought up and I'm not going to say specifically those but we should approach it with exactly the way you guys talked about it and that we need to spend money on money that's going to be well spent in supporting future growth in the future of the community that doesn't necessarily mean it has that tangible asset dollar of what's going to happen how much private investment is going to take place as a result of this dollar specifically measurable to a business moving in or housing being built but what's the intrinsic value of the community again a community facility would be a good example of delivering services and looking at delivering a community facility that quite frankly is going to benefit the community in a way that does make it more financially sustainable because while we do have the luxury of looking forward we don't have the ultimate luxury of having an endless checkbook so and I understand that by saying that it's asking the humans here probably to do more lifting again for a period of time but I also think that we've done a good job of building the staff back up you know we've added we added a person and a half last year the outside of the budget process even with expenditures from the downtown so we're taking a lot of really positive steps to try to put the people in place and I think they've done a great job leveraging their talents and skills with also using consultants and outside expertise when it's necessary and you know I'm okay with that even if it makes the cost of the project a little higher I think it's still money well spent so I feel strongly that we're really coming to that place and even when it's done is it going to make every hard decision that we have to make for us and that's it's a great process to bring the community together but every time I sit down with a group of residents who are thinking about this issue of how do we kind of bring the whole vision together as a cohesive plan I'm really impressed by the amount of amount of answers that I feel like we have and it's action time on some of them so I concur so your campaign teacher is going to say it's action time I'm sorry there's just a lot of good love the people it's action time well said staff and I guess with that though and recognition I just want to tag on that I do think it's really important that if we are asking the humans that are here to do more without adding to the numbers of them that they have the ability to do things efficiently as possible so I think those expenditures and supporting the most efficient use of in delivery of services is critical so I just want to support that I heard that come up a bunch of different times and what everybody said I'm right in line with that I don't come with a magic number in my brain I know to this and I know that's not helpful as a starting point I think what will be interesting is to understand what some of these capital projects look like in terms of costs even if it's very very rough sketches because I think that frames the entire conversation I mean if we're going to go forward with pool, main street project if we're just going to do all of it City Hall and there's an 18 cent tax rate increase right none of us will be sitting there laughing the rascal jump ship laughing time for action laughing no but I think going into that budget creation cycle having an understanding of what that instantaneously is going to do to our threshold and appetite is going to be key you know if that's starting with four cents which I'm guessing some things the two things of that scale probably would in terms of dollar amounts you know that's a big but I do just want to frame that this is a body that over the last several years has really been over backwards to keep things as measured as possible in terms of increases with the understanding that this time was going to come whether it be some of these projects so that's all I got did you get what you very helpful thank you so I'm hearing somewhere between zero and CPI laughing no this was I think very helpful what do you guys think I didn't really get those laughing you know and I think what the ask is in part drives the number that's acceptable as a threshold you know it's hard to it's hard to piece small staff increases program increases together that equals 17 cents that's a that's difficult it's a more challenging thing to explain and it's more nuanced in terms of the decision we'll make during the budgeting process it's a much different I'm going to stop using 17 cents let's use four that's a different conversation as hey this is exactly what this four cents for there's some other additions under there for technological okay that's that's one thing so I think if we can get to that piece of understanding what type of larger infrastructure expenditures might be on the table I think that informs that second number and then I just want to point out that the COLA is 2.5 percent of the expenses related to COLA not as an overall budget increase or is that proposed as a 2.5 percent impact to the total budget no no no COLA on personnel cost so it does have an impact on salaries on retirement on FICA on workers comp so there's more than one line that applies to but it's not 2.5 percent on on the salt if you look at a general fund budget four million dollars and I'm just making that up to four million dollars is personnel cost then the 2.5 and the 2.2 then factor into that larger piece of the overall pie in terms of and 2.5 I will also just highlight is COLA only that's not wage classification study that's not union settlement and that's not healthcare that's not healthcare so it was zero you know somewhere between zero and CPI again pending grand list which I don't know yet finding money to cut out of budget and I would say we're potentially looking at different uses of revenue streams that currently exist right thank you that was really helpful I appreciate the conversation before we move on though we'll also turn and say any comments questions concerns from public I think I heard a clap somewhere some juncture that was for the pool that was just for the pool okay good thank you very much thanks for putting that together and pushing an early conversation on it budget platforms from everybody up here it's good for everyone okay approval VLCT policy positions so at our last meeting we had a conversation about the VLCT position paper for town fair which is Wednesday you all had some questions so I posed those back to the league and got the answers that are in your memo I know Eric also maybe has some follow-up information as well and then I did was able to get the track changes document for them so you can see very specifically what was changed I can walk through this memo if you want or just go straight to discussion and really I'm just looking for if there are specific certainly I heard the conversation your concerns around non-profit require us to follow the open meeting lot the marijuana legislation specifically if there are other areas where you want me to on behalf of you all and when you take specific stands on Wednesday and open to those as well I don't want to acknowledge to Eric I really thoughtful follow-up in regards to the government funding so if you want to share anything in terms of I don't know if I ever said thank you but I'm sure grateful I think both of you did so thank you yeah so the information I got is likely that impetus behind that policy recommendation plans is for a lot of municipalities that have non-profit libraries and fire departments where they're getting constant funding allocations and certain members or bodies of municipality feel like they don't have a tangible path to get information on how that money is being spent so I think that was likely a lot of the basis behind it where that had me personally arrive at is really you know so let's take some going to the state level there are some non-profits like the Vermont housing association board for instance that get funding allocating appropriation through the general fund and as a result they are statutorily required that specific non-profit to be subject to open meeting law and the public records act I think that that's an adequate way to handle it if there are municipalities that have those that need for instance they feel like they have that need in that specific situation that they're giving money to be subject to open meeting law and public records act that's something that they can go through through their own charter through the funding mechanisms that they're utilizing to grant that money out I would oppose any state level requirement for non-profits that receive any you know it could be $25 for instance of government funding to be subject to open meeting law and public records act I think the discussion that we had last time was about some points that really it's our obligation as a council to set the metrics for returns we want to see on investments that we make out collecting those deliverables and you know showing that we are spending taxpayer money responsibly that's really our responsibility and that's kind of our onus so that's where I kind of arrived at that so I would oppose that particular part of their platform I agree but more I think it's a terrible idea I mean I think it's I think it opens up a ridiculous box for these organizations like you said I mean we give the food shelf a couple thousand bucks a year and the idea that they're suddenly I mean that's an undue onerous requirement for them that doesn't make any sense to me at all in turn it is our job to follow up on the money that we put out there and if we can't do that that's on us and the taxpayer has us to come to for that not the members of a food shelf well said Eric, thank you I just want to comment that I think that their their approach on the marijuana legislation is refreshing and positive that they are at least finding a way to call us around being proactive towards policy development and where potential funding would go which is what you know I mean I think even the commission that's been put together now has signaled this is a preparation for when not if and that is whatever people's desperate views on legalization are at this juncture frankly it's more important for us to be focused on how we react to it versus opposing or supporting and ensuring that frankly the entities in our community that need the funding to offset any potential impact get the funding as much access to funding as possible in this same transparency vein as the non-profits opening up on the crackers act there was one recommendation I had of allowing legal notices to be posted on web based media exclusively and that's something that I'd oppose as well I think that there are a lot of our own residents on constituents here that might not have access to those platforms due to either economically you know don't have the internet have computers or tech literacy for a lot of reasons I think it's still important to maintain having a place or places where legal notices that we're putting out you know as the city of Winooski for people to be able to access other concerns in regards to the answers we received warrants or I thought that was a useful explanation on warrants one of those things where it's like I didn't read it that way I understood well it also came forward the same time we were having a discussion around the Attorney General's responses and it was hard not to agree on that so any other questions before we send Jesse into war or comments wear a helmet into a peaceful negotiation of full policy platform about war well they're all our unisical friends very helpful I did have one more so I think voting rights are really important and I think it's taken immensely proactive leadership role nationally in the expansion of voter rights there is a recommendation they have in there to create a gap day for voter registration unlike the Monday before the election recognizing the basis for that being that our town clerks and elections officials work so hard to get people registered to vote to get all the voter rolls printed before election they do such amazing work there by having another day where people can come in and register to vote it essentially creates the problem of having to create two lists and print out two lists and I'm sure Carol could speak more to that so I understand that pinch I also do just think we've made voting for eligible voters so accessible and have moved in such a proactive measure I don't want to necessarily move backwards from that yeah I know it's a lot of work but I'm what an amazing exercise in democracy that people can do that and there are so many people that I've seen come and for one reason or another I've seen the people who this is the third precinct I've come to the third voting area I've come to frustrated because they're chasing around information and that's instead it could have just been corrected at the poll at the time and I would agree that it would be too bad to see that go backwards in the comments, questions, concerns and that I mean I think that's a very good point I'm not quite clear on what the purpose of the gap day is other than give folks a little bit more breathing room but then that sort of seems to counter the whole point is that people don't think to vote the day before the election they wake up and you know oh my gosh election day is tomorrow I don't have a you know at any time and so it does seem to counter productive in some ways recognizing that it is a big ask for the clerks great, another good item I think we would like to share or disdain for generally speaking appreciative of all the advocacy and work that you on our behalf you haven't been this small this is where she's like are you guys sure any other questions comments, concerns regarding the VLCT that's again the league of cities and towns their policy positions will be considered at their annual meeting annual meeting or so there's yeah, Matt Thornhill is a great speaker too, really interesting stuff chance to see that was great okay, so seeing and hearing none I would entertain a motion for the statement on VLCT policy positions with the amendment that we also add to that list the addition of the voter item as discussed here in the opposition to the number lost I assumed we were confirming the things we expressed last time and adding that one since we really discussed that last time motion second second by Brian Corgan any further discussion hearing and seeing none all those in favor please say aye and those opposed motion carries and with that this evening we conclude the city council's regular agenda items we do have one item on tonight's agenda for executive session and that is a six month review to take place with the city manager and pursuant to Avermont law we will conduct that review in executive session because we do not discuss personnel issues in open session because they're personnel issues and also because it'll be a discussion about performance and so with that we would conclude tonight's regular agenda items the executive session would take place with council and the city manager there's no action to be taken today so the result of the executive session would just be the council coming back out after discussion and holding a vote to adjourn there would be no additional business and no additional action taken any questions or concerns from council I just want to be clear that this is a six month check-in process it's not in the way you frame that in terms of going into executive session one could read into it there's no performance issues even though you said it's a performance I'll get the sticks it's a six month it's a six month check-in and also it's not a firing squad I've written her folks back to the process that we passed late August probably late August in regards to a survey that was conducted across council and management and some of that feedback would be considered to be discussed as that document laid out so very good point this is not a punitive discussion this is a check-in that we all agreed to a while back thank you it's time for action it's time for action wow that's a lot for the people I don't know we're setting a low bar oh my god and so with that though I would accept the motion for council any questions or concerns from the public okay and so with that I will accept the motion to enter into executive session for council and Jesse motion by Brian Eric any further discussion you can see none, all those in favor please say aye and those opposed motion carries if you want to pitch your your Tuesday thoughts oh god