 excited for this conversation. Nicole Thompson is joining us Joy in style. And she's going to be talking to us today about going back to work, getting ourselves refocused, resituated and how we present ourselves. And so for those of you that think this is just another fashion kind of conversation, it is not. And so stay tuned, because we have a lot of fun things to talk about. Most importantly, we want to thank our sponsors about you. We would not be here having this discussion. And so we want to say to all of our sponsors, thank you ever so much. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. My style wizard, Jared Ransom is not here today. Which is a bummer, because I always talk about what our style is for the day. She's actually putting her son into the first day of school. And so she has the day off, which is a good thing. Nicole Thompson, you are coming to us today to talk about the importance of how we feel, how we look, what we can do. And it starts from within, but it oftentimes is revealed on the outside. So I'm really excited to talk to you. Got to start with what's up with how we started dressing during COVID, and how we're going to be dressing now. And you're going to have, yeah, tell us what your thoughts are on that. So what's funny is, of course, when the world shut down, we all shut down mentally, right? And so it really changed the way that we decided to present ourselves. I think a lot of it was driven from fear, of course, because the messages being sent were, you know, a little scary to some people, definitely concerning to everyone. And nobody knew what to do or how to react or what was coming next. And so the thing that kind of goes by the wayside is, what am I going to wear today? And even if your business kept going, your company, you know, is pushing forward, you are pushing forward, especially if you're a parent, or if you're taking care of, you know, someone a caregiver, you have to keep going. And what do you do? Well, you keep going, but you may slowly have decided that well, you know, I'm going to be as comfortable as I can to get through this. So I think that's why that started. I think we're slowly but surely coming back into the swing of really what this new age is, you know, where it's, it's new that we're doing this, right? So normally, we might do this in person, even though we're on a podcast, we might be sitting in the same room doing this. And so, you know, there would be a difference in looking at somebody in their four dimensions, right, rather than their two dimensions, which is what we're doing. And so being really mindful of, you know, okay, coming out of COVID, am I going to my office? Am I going to meetings? Am I doing zooms or WebEx lives? Am I doing these things? You know, in, you know, how often, right? And so what's my look going to be? How am I going to portray, you know, what I want people to see, what I want people to know about me just almost in an instant. And being mindful of two dimensions versus four dimensions is definitely something I'm going to talk about because they're totally different. Video is completely different than being in person. It is. And you know, it's so funny because it's a conversation that we don't know what's really going on. I think it's changed so much. For those of you who were able to join us in the Chitty Chat Chat, we're really excited to have Nicole Thompson with us to talk today about returning to IRL, to returning to work in real life, but how we mitigate how we look, how we dress, and what that, what those implications are. You know, Nicole, I got to say, I'm talking to a lot of people, there's this, you know, they call the great resignation, we see all these people, especially in the nonprofit sector, leaving their jobs, they're exhausted, they're retiring, they're retiring age. And now there's this big rush to get people to hire people. And a lot of these folks are being hired online with digital communications. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating. So you don't know what these people look like, you know, from here below. Exactly. Yeah. You know, in regards to that, I would say that being very aware of practicing your video, when you're not meeting with someone, I'd say step one, because you, I did it today, you know, I wanted to make sure that, you know, like this picture right here has glass, and I didn't want my light to reflect off of it, you know, so you've got to be mindful of that. And even something small, such as like we're going to pick up, you might drink water during your meeting. So what does your glass look like? You know, I mean, if it's a wine glass, that's totally different, right? You might not want to do that. Okay. But your coffee mug, you know, be mindful of what it says and can people read it? Or if you're drinking from a thermos, you know, what does that come across like? Backgrounds, of course, are a big deal. And you know, you've got your digital background, which is perfect. My computer doesn't do that. So I created my own. And there's, you know, cheap, fun, easy ways to do that, where you don't have to spend a ton of money, but you can get a really good impact and have a lasting impression. That's really what you want. You want to create a lasting impression, because you're not in person, people aren't really reading your body language that much. And they aren't seeing your whole outfit. And so you want to get that, you know, nailed down the other important thing is lighting. So I have a light. It's a small light that I bought on Amazon. And if I turn it off, you see the difference that it makes. It's a huge difference, you know, and I may not realize by sitting here looking at you, that you can't actually see me. And so that's something that is not, you're going to be memorable, but it's going to be in the negative way, you know, and that's what not what you want. You want to go towards the positive. For women, women tend to wear makeup, right? That most women, little secret, personally, I actually don't, I just choose not to for all kinds of reasons, ever since I was young. But you know what I started doing on video, I started wearing lipstick, lipstick that was not a nude, not the color of my skin, because I realized that my face was kind of like fading away, you know, and so I don't want to fade away. I want people to see me. I want people to know me. And so, you know, that is the thing that I do a little powder, a little lipstick, just for video, I don't even really do it in person. But you've got to adjust to, you know, where you are, adjust to your audience. And that's lighting for women, lipstick, even for men, just a little chapstick and, you know, your background are three of the biggest things that you want to be mindful of when you're meeting someone on on video. I love that. And I, I wish that you could come and speak to every single one of the guests on the not that are coming onto the nonprofit show, because we struggle with that. I mean, I'll give you a little secret for all of our guests that come on. And again, done about 350 episodes. We have everybody come on 15 minutes early. And we specifically check, you know, their sound in their video, but where they are in their lighting, and we have to do it quickly. But we try and mitigate some of those things that people haven't thought of. So let's talk about this whole we were speaking about this earlier, this entire concept of the great resignation, all these people looking for jobs, chances are, it's going to be on camera at least first, before it ever goes to IRL in real life. Can you give us some thoughts as to what might be some good tips? Yes, so you're saying tips to be on camera, correct? Okay, so besides the things that I mentioned before, I want to talk also about jewelry. One thing we want to be mindful of is that we're not coming across too overbearing like, you know, what you would wear in person for jewelry is not something you'd probably do on a video. One example is really, really large earrings or big hoops. That's, you know, unless you're really making a statement about the earrings that day, for some reason, you would want to probably stick with just a small stud, because what happens is something like earrings, not only do they move when we're talking, they can be distracting. And all of a sudden, the person is not listening to what you're saying. But also, they add, they kind of add space to you in a two dimension, right? So or in two dimensions. So that's also not something that we're fond of. I'm not fond of adding width to myself, right? Yeah, nobody really wants to do that. And so we want you to be able to look at the video and go, I'm happy with what I see, you know, when you see yourself and not be shocked. And that if you look back on it, if you're watching it later, that it's something that you're proud of. And so the other thing too is, and this is super important, the height of your camera to your chair, that is something usually our desks are lower. And so we're often looking down on our camera if we're using a camera on a on a computer, my computer right now is raised and my chair is lowered, so that I have more of a either straight up view or slightly up because this is a nicer angle. We've all taken selfies, we do them from here, right? There's a reason for that. So when you're in on a video meeting, you want to think in the same way, like what's my best angle and go with that. And so that just takes away all of the things that would be a distraction so that whoever is on the other end, whoever your audience is, they're actually engaged with you and what you're saying, rather than why am I looking up her nose, right? Like, nobody wants to do that. Right. And I really appreciate you talking about this because this is one of those crazy things that we don't my my sense of it is that we don't we can't always articulate why it doesn't look good or right. We know it's not good. We know it's not right. But we can't really determine that. And so because of that, we layer opinions and ideas on that person, rather than Oh, that's just a bad camera angle. Right? Yes, absolutely. Nobody's thinking that, right? Yeah, I mean, so that's even more important for those of our viewers looking at, you know, how they're going to dress and how they're going to feel confident and work in this new. I wouldn't say it's a new digital environment. I would say it is it's almost like a new direction. Yeah, like it's a rising digital environment. Right? Yeah. And I don't think it's going to ever go back down because how easy is this? Right? I mean, and especially with businesses who are going in this direction, you know, much money they're going to save on infrastructure by having people stay home. Like, this is not going to go away. It's going to stick around. And so you want to be mindful of that. Let's talk about clothes as well, because that's one thing I didn't talk about just yet. So one thing you want to do on when you're on camera is take away the extra fabric. So a bunch of like collars, a suit, blazer, you know, a scarf, those things that may be your signature thing when you get in person. Like when you walk in the room, you've got that red power suit on whatever it is, right? Or that your version of Okay, wait, do you know me? Do you know me? I see your glasses. So I'm pretty sure you probably have a red power suit. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I interrupted. I mean, to our viewers watching this, we've never met, obviously, Nicole and I, but I'm like, Oh, my God, yes, my mind. Okay, I'm sorry. I interrupted. No worries. No worries. So your power suit online is not the same as your power suit in person, or your little black black dress or whatever your signature thing is. So play with that by yourself on your own camera where you're looking. This is probably not something I'd normally just wear out in public without something over it. But on camera, it comes across very well, because there's not a bunch of things to add fluffiness to me, to add dimension to me. It's just straightforward me again, not distracting. And so you get what you, you know, you get what you see, you just get me instead of all the stuff around. So right, you know, such an interesting comment that you would bring that up. And I, I want to focus in a little bit more on that because I keep hearing from you a reoccurring theme and that is if we don't understand or mitigate the stuff going around us, we don't hear, you know, the people that on the call don't hear us. Yes, they don't see us. Absolutely. Yes. You know, the same goes true for in person. I personally have about five years experience volunteering on a board of directors in the nonprofit sector. And I, yes, it was a very rewarding experience. And I had to do a lot of things. This is before COVID. So it was mostly in person things. But let me tell you the number of times I wanted to hand my card out at an event or interviewing a new board member, or I mean, so many different, you know, places that I thought, wow, the first thing that happens, you know, you depend in the nonprofit world on getting money from people, right? And so that's how you function is donations. And so people are going to judge where their money is going. That's just naturally as humans, that's just what we do, right? I was telling you earlier, like, if you didn't judge something by its cover, you wouldn't have the car you drive, you wouldn't have the house you live in, you would just, you know, do whatever. Well, that's not the case. And it's okay. You know, we're taught judgment is bad, not always. It's okay. You just need to think about the fact that others are looking at you and they're creating a perception of you before you even open your mouth. And especially if they know that you're, you know, the director of a nonprofit, they know you're going to ask them for money. That's just what we know. And so they're already deciding, you know, should I give this money to this person? Do they look like they'll manage it well? Do they look like they'll use it right? It's not so much that they don't have it, right? It's, are they going to put it to its best use? And they're looking at you to determine that. So you want to keep that in the back of your mind. And the other thing I'll add to that is, especially in person, a lot of people tend to think, well, if I dressed to hide my flaws, I'm going to look my best, right? If I, if I hide everything that I don't like, I'm going to look my best. And I'm here to tell you that is the absolute opposite of what you should do. Because what you normally do, especially women, because I'm a woman, so I know, right? We tend to wear like the big flowy thing that may not show any bump, lump, roll, whatever. And skin even does that, right? So it doesn't always mean you're big. It means sometimes you just have skin and you're human. So that's a natural thing. But when you do that, you create a circumstance where you're creating that distraction. If you just stick to accentuating your positives, right? If you love your, you know, shoulders or you love whatever something about your body is, if you dress to accentuate that, those things that you don't like, that are flaws that you typically hide, will naturally hide. Because everyone's eye will be brought to the thing that you are accentuating. So just keep that in mind, not only in your capacity as someone working for a nonprofit, but also in your daily life. I mean, this comes into play everywhere all the time, no matter what. You know, I'm so intrigued with so many things that you've said, but one of the things I want to get back to is the peace about tempering our judgments. And the reason why I want to talk about this is that we have had a lot of conversation about this, especially in leadership. And it generally goes like this. We see this especially in human services or working with disenfranchised populations. And the sense of it that we don't want to appear to be overdressed or too la de da. That's a technical fashion term. Yes, it is. You know, around our constituents because it might seem off putting or or all that. So we have struggled with this that we've tended to as a sector dress down and we have not been professional dressers. Then at the same time, I hear from the other side from the nonprofit leadership that's like, my team's too slovenly. And when they're not dressed, you know, to impress or dress for success, it changes the way they behave. And they're more casual. So how do we meet those expectations? I mean, it's really an interesting conversation that has just been amplified by by the pandemic. Right, right. I would say if I could sum it up and then I'll elaborate, but I think if I could sum it up, I would say, if you can set aside your fear or your own judgment of yourself or your embarrassment of being the best dressed person in the room. Okay, a lot of people think like or the overdressed. Sometimes it's the overdressed person, right? You show up to somewhere and someone says, Wow, I didn't know we're dressing up or you know, they make a comment about it. That is not always about you. That's usually about them that they feel, Oh, either I should have worn something nicer or I could have worn something nicer or why didn't I check to see what the, you know, the attire would be or whatever. That's usually what they're thinking and not what they say. What they say is, Whoa, you know, you look really dressed up or whatever it is. And so it's okay to be an overdressed person in the room. Now, I will give that a little disclaimer. I'm not saying that you want to show up at a baby shower in a black tie event dress, right? Or a tuxedo or whatever. Obviously, that's not what I'm saying. Usually, it's just a dress as opposed to jeans that makes someone feel like you're dressed up or a strappy sandal as opposed to a flat shoe or, you know, jewelry as opposed to no jewelry. It's so many subtle things that will cause someone to say it. It's based on their, their own perception of what is dressed up and that has to do with, you know, them raising them and not everything, right? And so we don't know. But what you want to focus on is, okay, when I walk away from this meeting event, whatever it is, activity, am I going to be memorable in a good way? Right? And so slovenly is memorable in a bad way. Okay, so that's why I'm saying I'm going to be memorable in a good way. And what will that be for? And so if someone says, you remember the woman and they may not remember your name, but they say she had on the red glasses, everyone's going to go, Oh, yeah, she was amazing, right? Because no one else in the room is wearing red glasses, most likely. And so what is your version of red glasses? What is the thing that someone is always going to, you know, remember you for? And if it's being what they might consider slightly overdressed and so be it, because their memory of you is going to be good, it's not going to be something that's negative, it's going to be great. And then when they think, you know what, I'm finally able to contribute, you know, and donate and give back, who do I want to contribute and donate and give back to? Who do you think is going to be the first person they think of that person that they remember? You know, I think that's I think that's good advice. And I think that speaks to the whole concept of self worth and value and confidence. And so it's a it's a it's advice that goes beyond just the physical, you know what I mean? I see that it has a lot of layers. I'm also wanting to ask you, I mean, this is just a question that popped into my head, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on quote unquote dress codes or dress policies or does that help inform and educate people or is that punitive? Or what do you what are your thoughts on that? Because it seems to me that this conversation is and I mean literally this week is just going to start to become amplified as we are called back into our offices people are going to be shocked at how folks have had weight change, how they can't fit into their professional clothes, how they have become after a year and a half a custom to more casual dressing. So this is a conversation that's I think very, very omnipresent as we move back into recovery. Absolutely. What are your thoughts on that policy issue? So I remember when we had to wear pantyhose to work like I literally would sit in job interviews and ask that question if they said yes, I'm like this is not the place for me. And that was like the eighties and nineties right. And so I was clearly cutting edge 30 years ago. You were. I always had a pantyhose budget. Right? Yeah. How fair is that? They never asked men if they're wearing socks. Anyway, okay, I digress slightly. So I think that putting together and I've actually done this for companies and I could do it for nonprofits as well. But putting together samples or examples of the event and then the clothing items helps people to learn what direction to go in. So when they're shopping, maybe they can, you know, pull it up online or have some type of, you know, I'm still a paper person, have a notebook, you know, where it's in there or whatever it is that helps them remember so that when they're looking for things or shopping online, they can go in that direction. I also think it helps to have a list of things that are not appropriate. So rather than things you have to wear, you would show examples of, you know, of, you know, what you want to portray, but also a list of things you don't want like, you know, ripped jeans very much in style. I don't know that they're going away anytime soon, but probably not what you want to wear to anything in regards to anything professional, just generally speaking, unless you're literally a speaker on ripped jeans, you know, and that's about the only reason. Even even, you know, where we have women have the tops that sort of slide down off the shoulder, it's very popular right now, probably not even the cold shoulder thing where there's just like an open area, probably not the best thing to wear when you're sitting across a boardroom table, you know, pitching some idea. It's just, you know, you want to be mindful of your audience. And so I would say giving examples to people and then also creating a recommended do not do this list, you know, that those are the two ways I think you can overcome that. And you can also bring me in like that happens to I've done things like seminars for specific to businesses where I stay with them and their people. And I just teach them, you know, in their area, what looks best, what doesn't and why that's really the key thing is the why behind it. So what I'm hearing you say, which is kind of an interesting thing, and I hadn't really thought of that. But it's like from and I'm again, I'm showing my age, you know, the glamour do versus the glamour don't magazine moment where you're you're actually saying use examples and not just a verbal cue but say, you know, spaghetti straps on a woman is not appropriate, you know, what whatever. I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing. Yeah, it took it from my own history when I first got a job that had casual Fridays. So I showed up in a t-shirt and shorts and I nobody else was wearing that. And I was like, oh, this is not what that means. What did you do? I mean, we don't have much time left, but I'm fascinated by that. Luckily, I lived really close. And so after I got done laughing, I went home and changed. And so I just laughed it off. That's just sort of how I am. And I was very young. I was in my very young 20s. So I think those people that had been there for a while were like, she's young, you know, yeah, you know, and it's funny because before the pandemic hit, we kept hearing more and more organizations that were doing away with casual Fridays, because they said it just triggered something where people were more casual in their behavior. They weren't as I don't want to use the word dedicated, but they weren't as on, you know, they were they were a little bit more casual in the way that they yeah, on to things leaving early, taking Yeah, yeah, it was really an interesting thing. I mean, we just started hearing about this more and more. And then, of course, that conversation went away with a pandemic. But I suspect as we are all revising what it means to be in the workforce and the workplace, yes, whether that's digital or IRL these these issues are going to come back for discussion. I think you're going to see businesses revamping their dress codes and their, you know, employee handbooks for that reason. I think you're going to notice, like, you know, them having video dress codes as well as in person dress codes. And more of the suggested don't do this rather than just that you must be, you know, wearing this, this and this. And I think it's I think it's a good thing, actually, because, you know, we also need to keep up with the time, like we're talking about the pantyhose thing, right? Like that's certainly a thing of the past. And so keeping up with the time being forward thinking, cutting edge 2021 2022 is like, almost here. We're more than halfway to it, you know. So think about, you know, what that looks like going forward and setting something that will stay classic so that you don't keep having to revamp it, you know, every time something in the world changes, you can just let it let it stand and hold itself. So, you know, what an amazing conversation. We have really been fortunate to have Nicole Thompson here today with us from joy and style to talk about all things relating to how we show up and mentally and physically. There's some blur there and how we look and feel is really dependent upon each piece of this, you know, how you feel and how you look and how you look and how you feel. It's so interesting. And again, as we were saying, you know, Nicole, for so many of us across this country and really across this world, this is that week that we're going back. Yes, absolutely. My son starts school tomorrow. So we are we are making preparations and, you know, now is the time to really key into this so that it just becomes second nature to you. Right. And I think so it doesn't become punitive. So it's like you're good to go and you're not. I mean, nobody wants to be told that they're not dressing for success or that they're I mean, what a mortifying. I mean, mortifying thing. I mean, we told that it's not appropriate. That's just brutal. Hey, everybody, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of American Nonprofit Academy. If we haven't met before, that's who I am. Tomorrow you'll be back. My co host, Jared Ransom will be back with us and you'll get to meet her as well. She's doing that thing very thing that you just talked about, Nicole. She's taking her son to the first day of school as well. And so as working moms, we all understand what that means. Again, we want to thank all of our sponsors without you. We would not be here having this amazing discussion on looking well and being well and doing well, because that's a big part of what our sector is all about. And if we don't feel good and healthy and safe, we cannot provide the services that our community depends upon. So I think this conversation has been really illuminating Nicole. We hope that you'll come back. I thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate it. It's been really fun. And I think what we should do is that we should have you back like in six months when we've all gone through this drama going back to work and then see what the lessons are. Yeah, that's a good idea. We're on the other side of it. Absolutely. I would love to come back. Yeah, because I mean, I think it is just, you know, it's just changing so radically. And it's going to have all these implications. And none of us really know, I think, what to expect. And so we'll have a lot to learn and a lot to discuss. And you have been just a joy to be with. And so thank you so much. Hey, everybody, as we end every episode of the nonprofit show, we want to remind you to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone. Thanks so much.