 Hello everyone, how are you? Good morning. Good morning, and I've started recording. Don't be careful of what you say So we have only two cups of coffee in I don't know what I'm going to say Yeah, so did you have the WSB meeting last week? The which meeting we've got too many probably the enterprise We did and the calendar was kind of full I apologize for that because we had two guests Organizations that were presenting but I will definitely coordinate with Andrea Tiniana. Who's our chair? Vipin and we'll do an enterprise solutions working group that connects with what we're what we're doing here Okay, beautiful. Can we thank you Kelly? I'm sorry, but we can we capture that on the agenda that way someone can Hold me accountable and kick me in the shin if I don't Yeah, Kelly is taking note minutes. So that'll definitely she'll she'll probably put Put that on the note So before we start this meeting, I have to say that We are operating by the antitrust rules according to the hyper ledger foundations rules so Basically, it is meant to encourage Competitive behavior Not colluding and if you do not agree with this antitrust policy of where are you joining from please? Please do not Attempt the call because that is the only requirement for the call that you be in agreement With the antitrust policy and the code of conduct Other than that all are welcome to the call and I think we should kick off by with Karen saying something more about the polls and Various other administrative Notes that she's she can give us Karen. Are you there? Should we wait for a few minutes? I see you're on mute, but I don't know whether you're there. Yes Sorry, I have some background noise here. I was trying to get rid of Yeah, in terms of the polls well, I mean it's up to you Bippin to decide when we finally decide on a time We do have a couple people that I've heard from on the West Coast that would like to attend the call and And this time is a little bit early for them so What we wanted to suggest was Would this group that's here now be open to a time that's maybe one hour later or two hours later Well, the more you push into the time the More difficult it's going to be for the APAC people to attend if they have so desire So one hour would be Best but you know that when we go into the daylight savings time I mean, it's when we go out of daylight savings times will be advanced one hour So the you know the people from APAC will even be further Disadvantaged But I'm all for changing the time to one hour later If people agree even though the poll Did well a clear winner which was this time, which is 9 a.m. Wednesdays We could make it for the convenience of the people on the West Coast Unfortunately these people just just told me about this There are two features about the poll one is you can for this your own time Not too many people knew about The second is that That you know, you have to vote Which we have seen time and again in other settings The People have reached out to me same as they have to you Karen Saying that the time is too early and my only suggestion to them was to Suggest a different time and to vote But now that the vote is concluded we could open it up with a different You know with one more suggestion, which I had actually added at the end, which is one hour later 10 a.m Let me know if this is inconvenient for any of you because we we wanted to be Convenient for the most of the folks Who are planning to attend the call anybody have anything I can make 10 work? I'll be traveling on some instances, but That works for me I'm okay with that Money I'm fine too. Okay looks like We have general consensus unless someone else really Objects, but I think we should record it this in a minute so that it doesn't appear that I'm just making some crazy decision to Overturn the results of the poll anyway, um, I Also try to publicize that and to reopen the poll for another Let's say week or so So that then we can actually get them to meeting Properly started and on everybody's calendar For the rest of the year That's the first thing now as far as the agenda is goes we have Only a few items on it, which I had put in there so if you want to add more items or Talk about something then we are always Welcome to do so, but I'm going to proceed according to the agenda Which which I have set up here and it says and I trust policy and code of conduct and The second item is introductions We already did the poll results we already did you know the call for volunteers which Kelly seems to have answered by Taking a minute and the next Piece on the agenda is introductions Everybody should give a brief introduction the reason For their presence on this call and what they hope to get from it Try to keep it short like you know 20 or 30 seconds if you do not want to speak that's fine, too I'll try to call on people so that You don't have to feel like Jumping the Gary Yeah, hi. My name is Gary Miller. I'm with him thing. We're a blockchain technology company focused on capital markets Our inaugural platform can run securitization transactions Just run the data and reporting for an asset-backed security steal and my background is not in technology I've spent 20 25 years as a securitization banker structure finance banker and Just learned about this special interest group yesterday on the marketing call. Happy to be here That's great Secret page size Sorry securitization is a very important part of the issuance process And I thought who had a volunteer to be a vice-chair was also working in this from Spain So I don't see her on the call, but I know that she'll be interested in working with you on that Next one is Al Hi, Vivian. It's Al Brandt. I work with block ledger and we're a Blockchain technology company focused on the equipment finance space and so we're very interested in how you take equipment loan documents and Securitize them or provide Loan syndication things of that nature Well, this is another thing that I was wondering about Yesterday because I have that some find Some kind of a taxonomy there and in the capital markets structure I had put in Bonds Equities repose and derivative. I was wondering about the place for syndicated loans What is your view on that? I mean, I know that syndicated loans often You know operate on the tranches of loans that are then divided up by the syndicate but You know in terms of the further securitization of that and the secondary market You know if you have any comments on that that would be great. Yeah, I think a leveraged loan syndication on its own is almost fits more into the bond world, but I think there's also a The category like for securitization where assets are being pooled Like you say it once it becomes in a CLO say a leverage loan or we're talking of auto loans or equipment loans equipment leases That's that's really a whole other industry and category Which is really the pooling and securitization of you know pools of assets and the bonds are patient cash flows that are collected But we'll we'll it fit into the capital markets thing call That's that's the question. Well It's clearly a integral large part of the debt capital markets Eight hundred and fifty billion a year the categories that that this all encompasses although we're focused on equipment finance, you know, you can talk about mortgages auto loan there's a Lot of debt out there that ends up being sold out to a secondary market Yeah, I was heavily involved in the technical aspects of securitization of credit And very familiar with the with the data-driven approach that we've taken for those Securitization, I mean collateral based cigarette Dairy somebody Kelly is asking. What is the spelling of your company name in team? I think it's I am P. A. I am or yes, sir I am T. A. I am Okay Next up is money Derivatives and Yeah, I'm a man if you like from swap sub We are involved in blockings looking for For this derivative as well as on the other side of other side actually involved deeply in custody solution and more of an institutional custody Settlement All this thing falls under more of play, you know, we're looking at earlier implementing on data standards We just putting a very lacking in the marketplace today We actually in getting actually involved in this dust CDM This is the common domain model for the financial industry, although they started out with derivatives. It's moved on now in the securities. So Any police in that out in the market eventually have to be able to store data or represent As of movement or life cycle Data because the regular system very hard on that and we have already seen that in fact Regulars in the UK is already looking at CDM as they going forward for reporting purposes We are also meeting with the SCC and see if you see Particularly with the standard and I Coming up with a robust institutional framework for a city and Settlement that kind of goes with all the topics about the period I said you want to realize now What do you do with it? How do you secure them? How do you distribute? How do you make sure that you can be in a further level? That's why Thank you, Bonnie. We'll go into the details of the Standardization effort that we push forward last week During that report at the end of the I mean towards after the introductions Karen please Hi, my name is Karen Ohtoni, I'm the director of ecosystem at Hyperledger and And a base here in New York City and what our ecosystem team does one of the things is We work very closely with the SIGs. We help them get started And provide support to anything that the SIGs needs in terms of Working with the broader community at Hyperledger Accessing any of our resources and things like that Kelly Yes, hi, my name is Kelly and I Pretty much I'm an academic but I do side gigs a lot right now. I'm working on helping somebody get going in the Opportunity zone X base Excuse me space What was that opportunities? And I didn't use the last bit. Sorry run Good morning everyone Ron Quaranta currently chairman of the Wall Street blockchain Alliance headquarters here in New York Prior to that spent Approaching 30 years in global financial markets and financial technology including a Extraordinarily long stint at Thompson orders where I was head of exchange trading I know a lot of the folks on this call So really a privilege to be here happy to work looking forward to working with you all and they've been by the thing have been involved in capital markets of various other technology initiatives including media companies others, but latest stint was in a big international bank in in a driving the creation of a MBS platform and then Also associated credit-related A secret patient and analytics So I'm very familiar with the creation of large infrastructure in banks and how it has to Interact with other functions including legal Compliance IT security and so on so And of course lately I've been involved in blockchain and I'm on the course of the chair of the identity working group and general Hyperledger technical ambassador and I left toward and other things and I run a Enterprise blockchain consultancy Which is called DLT dot NYC? That's my current gig So with without much More let's talk about the projects that we are proposed First of all about the attendance today Several people contacted me saying that they are on summer vacation And they will be able to attend so that is probably the reason why we only have seven participants a second About the projects you can propose any project And as long as you take a lead and have an idea of what what those projects should be should do and Initially, we start off by just talking about Couple markets in a slightly general way then we drill down into the the hope is that we can drill down into the Into that particular a particular line of inquiry and See the connections to blockchains in general and to Hyperledger based technologies in particular especially with projects that have been launched or Are in the process of being launched either as an MVP or as a as You know actual product and what are the challenges that people face? So I'm going to share the screen in terms of The projects page that we have so that we can take a look at what what projects We have I hope you everyone can see this Yep, I Apologize about the hundreds of tabs on the top, but That's the way I roll Anyway, the first Project is about Taxonomy which is a fancy way of saying classification So as we have bonds I mean as we have the capital markets we can segment it into different ways of classification the first So I'll take you to the To the one that I have developed in terms of the bond You know in terms of the infrastructure there So we have the capital markets in the center and we have bonds Then we have equities I have put derivatives and repos in different On the same level even though many of them would refer to those primary instruments as a You know in order to do the derivatives or the repos Because the analysis and The structure of the centers around those are slightly different Now the question that I asked just now was about syndicated loans and other things and I do have them here in the Under the bond umbrella sort of has CDOs and CLOs and of course as CMOs You might add a box there for asset ABS ABS and NBS kind of go hand-in-hand. They're typically segregated out, but they're You know viewed in the same Trade rags in the state other kind of combined generally, but you might put it at ABS in there So in other words, if I if I let's say that I So I'll show you what I do, right? Okay, so I wanted it to diagram Bring up the I mean it'll take a couple of seconds here because it's using glyphi which is Integrated into our system Into the wiki But the editing is very very easy, right? It's not Difficult at all. So what you're saying is I would add You know So I would say ABS and I would put it almost at the same level as NBS then I would put the CFO and CDO are kind of grouped together typically a little bit, you know in terms of the market how they Yeah, and then I can say you know, I can talk about the different assets that would I can ask the back security The only reason I have their covered bonds is because obviously they are covered by collateral, right? Yeah, covered bonds. I was speaking of you know Covered bonds is already a term of art Where a large bank is free was more common in Europe Would issue just straight bank debt, but they would take a piece of their Their portfolio that collateralized it so covered bond in and of itself as this thing So you might for this these purposes you might not use that word covered but collateralized bonds Yes, okay, so we're gonna we can Modify that right so Let me tell you that I've been using this tool I wanted to make it live in other words. It's not just a pretty picture But when you click on something like capital markets, I want a link that will take me to What what the glossary term for capital markets is and as we go Further we can then also add to that link the projects and other other You know efforts in the blockage phase that Cover not not capital markets as a whole but in terms of you know, if there is something that covers specifically MBS or ABS then we would Explain it in that link but having difficulty with the link You know, you can insert the link but doesn't seem like We can do You know We can click on the figure and go to the link. It seems like that thing is broken, but I'm Talking to Silona Who's the head of Community architects in hyper ledger who did propose the this Goofy Plug-in and See how we can work that out, but Anybody who wants to change any of this stuff is free to do so, right? because it's Editable document we can we can all share everybody's knowledge So that's This is the initial Taxonomy picture then we have the other one which it's suggested by and which we went through last time which is based on a life cycle And I had taken a diagram from Oliver Wyman's box chain and capital markets in association with Euro clear for that and then I Just inserted a Talk Token taxonomy Well, the thing on the left is going to be is is actually going to be Deleted, okay But The token taxonomy classification hierarchy is taken from the ethereum alliance of token taxonomy Initiative so this is just another way of looking at tokens which would be the connection between blockchains and The world of finance itself so there will be some mapping of these in into the Chewings aspects of You know securitization trading and so on and so forth or even the payment part. So Not that was my thought now This is just one of the projects that we are doing with the taxonomy It's not for some reason it doesn't want to cooperate so I'm gonna Go here and go to the general projects and Now The second project here is the data standards Money will take us through a couple of those examples that he has if you want you can take control money or I can I Bring up and you can talk on that. Yeah So this is in the NNS since we're trying to you know, put together all the common data standards you used in the capital markets Obviously, you know, I'm just doing a rough cut at this point a lot more needs to be added So the idea is to say, you know, what are the current existing standards in the capital markets? How are these standards being either enhanced are being applied to more the digital economy capital markets and How do we you know add more standards and definitely that could be more standards evolving in various initiatives by the members so more be more than happy to You know Happy to edit this thing and add those standards at least outline them I started out with the view that's been most popular fixed being the oldest of all of more of a message standard for Getting anything from equities to futures to effects And how even there it is This has been all the forms data standard. I don't want to go into more detail You can find more information. I think when the links over there second thing is the PMO which is the derivative standard of data standard That is being applied in the marketplace, but primarily on the OTC derivatives covering interstate swaps Stop Comes under the primarily under the under the used swap Any part that comes up with that Are all the players in that phase Now Mr. CDM is the new standard that you are the out of When the derivatives are They found that the famous is all over the past of more 15 15 years The challenge was Was that it was Considered to be very difficult the fact that anything would play it could be represented in more than one way That does not work very well when you're trying to divide Come up with a data as well as a business cross now, that's an important thing so far We only talked about data standard now the CDM is also trying to outline business process So that everything from every every part of a life cycle of a trade Can be documented and and can be shared in part of how I'm still in the editing phase Covering more on the CDM and then separately ISO That's something that Currently being used by ASX in their implementation So What we are seeing is that is so as we implement blockchain solutions the most important thing You know, it is that generally overlook is what are the data standards simply because when regulators eventually want to up to or even Knowledge Blocking data solution They definitely look for what kind of data On which the Blocking so the data or communication to be involved. So this is something that And hence, you know, most welcome for anyone trying to get more on standard That's on my part and I'll continue to Sounds good So before we go We I tried to it. I tried I attempted to Create a template for standards, which is up top and money was asking me Whether there is such a template available Where we can examine the standard in all those different Sort of dimensions and create a standard template for well Too many standards in that template in that work a sentence, but basically is there a template that we can use to Describe these standards Which would suit our purposes and I Quickly put together something there, which is that I got eight That is so if anybody has any ideas on these template templates that we could use for standards that would be very useful Anyone has suggestions about this or do you think we could have different sources for this This kind of template, I mean, I know there are some Organizations who develop this like Oasis. I was going to look there to see whether they have something This is like a metal standard for standards So do you mean a you mean a template for like I mean just and many you and I've spoken about this Fix for example fix or fix ML as a template for a specific standard capturing for specific types of digital currency transactions or or I mean, it's a fairly straightforward Template we can use but I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly Well, since we're going to have a whole bunch of standards described below starting with fix fix ML FPML and Is the CDM and so on Which are slightly different in each each are slightly different. We want to put them into this This template so that we cover all the categories like for example in the in the on the top of the document I have these eight Eight things here Suppose I want to describe fix fix ML I would say I would do an overview of what fix fix ML is And then why is it applicable to? A couple market sig and blockchains and then the category like is it a data standard a data interest change standard or you know does Are there a legal ramifications? Then there would be something which says what is the standards body that controls the standard? and the regulation of Or so sovereign adoption which regulatory agencies refer to the standard Is it a requirement? Then adoption rates like what percentage of the market has adopted the standard Then perceived challenges or gaps listed POC's MVP's production use cases and the next step so This is something I just threw together right when I Go ahead. Yeah, I'm sorry women. So I think I think some of the foundational work. I'm Manny. I'm happy to Coordinate with you on the standard stuff. I think some of the foundation foundational data around particularly on fix and fix ML I Used to sit on their digital asset digital currency working group So some of that the preliminary answers to the overview category Etc is is is information we can Put together in a way that's digestible within this special interest group And I suspect once we start evolving into FPM L and is the Maybe even XPRL for example, we can start fitting it into some of those Templates, but I think from an overall standards perspective some of the foundational works already available that we could we could liberally borrow and include here I mean many do you agree with that many has the Yeah, link here. So for example, if I go to the link there It it talks about those the foundation work which is already there. So it's not like So we don't want to recreate You know the details of what is there It's more of a goviki. That's how they're looking at right now, right? I mean and then definitely Ron we can we can you know We can talk about it and say this other Class preferences you want to bring it in and definitely you know, you know, we also work similar standards and in the WSBA Organized on that association. There's a whole enterprise working group We tackle some of the shoes. So this is more technical SIG so Together here, but definitely we can bring in and cross-collaborate wherever possible Yeah, and and vipin to expand on on many points just a little bit even deeper diving into some of the more technicals around What are those? What are the the standard usages of particular even message types for securities or tokens that are relevant in fix? We could Man you've probably seen someone but we could begin to map out some of that as well. So we can get into a level of technical that is Relatively interesting for this particular work stream. Yeah, I mean, there is still there's still a big work being done on the Yeah, fix side of things on the digital assets side definitely we can show some highlights here So people are docking and particularly with trading protocols on the capital markets If you know, oh, it's better to at least follow standards Whereas in the more of the detail side anything goes it's all up to you know, the possible advantage in the capital markets because of the large players involved and in any solution that doesn't point to a standard It's going to be very hard to get up. Yeah, and I think many where we'll start to see real Challenges in is is adoption rates and I mean, I think the perceived challenges is actually a separate work stream So I think there's some overlap there, but adoption rates is a Different caliber of conversation. So let's get through the foundational stuff on on the standards and then then we can reassess if that makes sense Yeah, I mean the point was Once we create these top level project then there will be inter links between them, right? I mean basically If you say perceived challenges or gaps then that would link back into Kelly's work which is going which we are going which we are going to go through on obstacles and how do they map on to the the standards Being adopted in blockchain. I mean It's one thing to talk about standards The other thing is We have to put the spin Of how they are relevant to blockchains and how they are relevant to hyper ledger And then into the actual projects that are out there So In the beginning this would be more. I mean, this is my thought that this would be more of a resource for people who want Want to get acquainted with the capital markets And then it would go into a, you know, if they want to actually work on a project Is there such are there such projects already out there? And if so, what are the challenges they are running into? What are the things that? You know people have done. What are the solutions that people have created? Both technical and non-technical And then how can we Take this whole conversation forward and of course we are interested in not duplicating Work that is being done elsewhere like wsba so that if we can have links into Some open material that you guys have Open stuff That you're willing to share with us then we can just link to that Instead of belaboring everything on the same wiki, but it is more of a Place to collect all this and to guide people through you know And interrupt me at any any time and Let me know Yeah, and vip and I I I agree We're absolutely happy to do that It ties to something you mentioned earlier about our enterprise solutions working group with which mani also referenced We we also have a a technology and product working group that really is the liaison point for some of the partnerships we have like hyper ledger Yeah, so happy to happen to make the publicly facing stuff available and integrate here The one other thing that I want to throw out that I'm happy for anyone on the call to tell me that to be quiet about it But I'm always a little leery when an organization body publishes or states things quote unquote standard and I just come out of And I get what we're trying to do here vip and from painting the landscape of what emerging standards there are But we should be cognizant that We're not proposing standards And I'll give you the living example that we struggle with we we spend a lot of time also looking at the accounting world and We have a global partnership with a icpa, which is a guidance and standard setting Collaborative body and every time we say hey, we're doing standards. They say no you're not you can't So I just we should be cognizant that these are evolving standards and and when we share this across the global hyper ledger ecosystem Basically, it's a state of play in the world of standards in this space. I'm happy to tell me I'm wrong No, no, no, that's precisely it. We are not developing standards. We are describing them and we are describing them and putting them into a particular place in terms of our interests in creating solutions for capital markets through blockchains or through you know, hyper ledger based DLT's That is our aim not to develop standards Understood So now we go back to the projects And Stan had said along with others had said that They would come up with what are the good use cases for DLT's and what works and what does not work. Yeah, Stan is Express regrets because he's on vacation. So And and I don't think there's much in that in that link there. There's almost nothing there. I think I I put together some of the stuff here as well And if anybody wants to Do anything more here, that would be great Otherwise we go back to I mean, let's discuss this for a minute if you You guys have any thoughts on this? Goals So similar to the goals here. We put the same similar goal A goals heading on the standards too by stating what you said Ron that We are not in the business of developing standards, but we are You know, so that's that is a That is one more action item that either I or money will take to Of the standards, but coming back to the use cases Would you like to Say anything more about this team of you because you are all active in this space So it's Ron again. I've been so quickly just quickly I'd be interested in everyone else's opinion as well I think things have evolved enough where we can actually point to specific use cases in either beta or production Um, and I I I'm happy to be I know kelly. You told me to log in. I'm sorry. I'll do that later But I'm happy to be I spend quite a bit of time talking through some use cases as I'm sure everyone on call does Um, is it acceptable to point to specific use cases in either beta or production as long as they've been publicly Reference because I think looking at these categories several are There I think And the one other or at least they're available for us to reviews from a use case perspective The other category I would add is is things like data and analytics From a capital market use case which once I get access. I'm happy to add it or if you want to do it, but Okay, yeah, I can do it. Yeah But you know, many gary you you and I have spoken about this stuff in the past as well I'd be interested in anyone's perspective There's some stuff. There's some solid stuff we can point to or at least begin to point to Yeah, again, we are not going to do overly. I mean at least I think dance. I mean, sorry stands uh aim was to You know To say which which which are good use cases which are not meaning From what he has seen You know From what he has seen what is what is good what's not good, you know And where are there again Meaning, you know, what are the struggles that people are having when they're trying to do? Let's say if they're if they're doing You know trading Of use cases, right? I mean sometimes Sometimes the The dlt's are not performant enough in terms of handling The Program program trading or something like that. So I mean, I think that's his Take on it, but let's let's see what what, you know What he has to say, but okay I will try to move this data analytics part to you know, one more in but it looks like it's not cooperating with me today Does anyone disagree with that data analytics point? I just want to make sure i'm not Forcing a bullet point on this whole thing Well in in the top level I exchange traded products and over the count of products. It's more on a product basis that That it's taken data and our analytics would cover all of them, right? I mean if you do any of these youth cases you would need data analytics as a cross cutting concern because Uh That is informs each one of those Like creating post trade risk management every one of them requires Some kind of a data analytics Layer or overlay Right Um, maybe yeah, we we should we should talk about it And again like you said There are plenty of examples out there and we are not going to go belabor the The details of them rather provide links to them and Maybe a little bit of commentary based on the expertise of individuals here Because what is the value that we are bringing not just aggregating What is out there, but also provide one kind of a commentary Understood So That's that next one is Obstacles which kelly Was working on so she probably would I can bring up the page and then we can talk about that Thank you. One of the things that I was thinking about is how complex This is in this particular sector and how many products and different projects involve A high level of interaction in the context of an ecosystem And that made me think about an article. I read that said we need to make sure that we're Identifying a significant problem or a significant set of problems rather than getting excited about the technology and trying to apply it to something and I think Because of the expertise in this group, it would be a good idea for us to on the one hand develop standards, etc Or describe standards or to detail standards But on the other hand to really think about what two or three of the obstacles are And set those up almost in an okay our type framework where if we have One particular obstacle to set up a couple of objectives for that to go out and get some research Some transnational research to take a look at what some of the other ecosystems are doing with that and if we can pick one or two obstacles to really go deep on and to build A solid understanding of and to be able to convey that to the group then Those obstacles can lead to products that make more money and assist more sectors, etc, etc, so I thought that people on the call might be able to off the top of their head say oh my gosh These are the three things that would be Unbelievable if we could address or that are crippling if we don't address and I didn't hear anything So I just went out and grabbed a couple of just generalist articles on what Other researchers see That are in the field regarding what some of the big problems are or what some of the issues are and I was hoping that people could take a look at that or Maybe that would trigger what they believe Would be something near revolutionary in the context of capital markets with hyper ledger And then we could as a group almost just for fun But also potentially toward an interesting approach to product development To be able to then put our our minds together and address that and at the same time That would help us to really see some of the Areas of gaps in standards some of the areas of gaps and use cases Some of the things that we need to add to the taxonomy and help us to address a couple of significant issues So anyway, I'm open if that is not a fit, but that was my general way of thinking This is gary here You know what What are the issues When you just talk about blockchain generally, uh in the context of capital markets is Well, there's a need to kind of compartmentalize the conversation. There's There's the token world which has its own obstacles because Custody is not quite adopted yet or you know at the institutional level You know met life is not going to buy 30 million dollars of some deal in tokens Uh and then there's there's blockchain just to run data and run workflows And one of the obstacles is as someone who's selling a technology product into the capital markets participants You you know, you just come at them and it's just oh the bitcoin or this or that and You know, it's it's hard to really kind of frame or compartmentalize the conversation. So You know, it's almost like there's subgroups here. There's There's the digital securities Compartment which has its own obstacles that are say separate from just Running a deal on blockchain where there's no token say and then You know, I don't know I just wish there were a way to separate the conversations that because so many people just put their palm up You know put their arm out the second you start talking about blockchain because they're they're conjuring up Some kind of bearer instrument where they're going to lose their investment, you know Doesn't anyone else agree or encounter that? I agree with you fully gary I mean, it's the it's the education and acceptance conversation We often have that and we still have I'm sure you do as well and everyone on this call I still have conversations where I meet with someone and I mentioned blockchain And invariably they say oh that bitcoin stuff is I'm not interested in Yeah, and I think it's the acceptance and education which is a bit more Squishy than than some of the more granular stuff. We're talking about so I'm with you there 100% I think anything in the context that we can point to of this group For outside parties that helps aid that discussion internally Within their organizations. I think is very important Um, and I think the other two obstacles and I'd be interested in other opinions on this is the the obstacles we see often and all over nor again, which is Interoperability and integration if we're talking about capital markets You're not talking about a new ecosystem. There's a lot of stuff It's got to connect to and what are the challenges that needs to be recognized to do that And also about trust this kelly's on the middle one. I think About trusted intermediary. I mean and again the conversation There are a lot of compartments around a trustless versus decentralized trust like in like in the capital markets I think you you still need someone A grown-up in the room to undo a wrong, you know, and and I think there's you know, like we're using a blockchain Platform that that encompasses a trustee and custodian, you know for now for today's world that may not be the case in 2030, right? but But so there's just this big spectrum, you know tokens no tokens trust trust this and You know, it's such everyone attaches, you know Just picks, you know assigns a whole spectrum to a specific little use case and then can't get their arms around it. So anyway, that's That's just how I've developed over the years. It's hearts and minds gary The way we we try to you know compartmentalize In taking on gary's point of view is that is we try to we try to categorize as contract networks and asset networks, you know Asset networks are representing digital assets and crypto is a subset of that And then the contract network is exactly the one that runs the contract the life cycles of trades And then eventually it may or may end up, you know settling inside that was some cut up an asset Tokens and any interesting may not need not even go into the into the digital asset world You still have the traditional payment trails mechanism as some of the blockchains are connecting to Like a slip. So you could still continue to do in the existing payment rail as part of your sort of one process. So Yes, it's better to you know, or organize them as More or less in in contract versus the assets and will help us frame Better the problem problem areas and also one of the challenges That's being that are applicable to each one of these categories It just does that Make some sense Yes, indeed But i've also heard that unless we bring them together Uh in some sense that we are not going to achieve the true potential meaning the Uh dvp type of approach But gary brings up a very good point is that That there has to be a way to Correct uh transactions that are wrong patently wrong and So the dvp approach with no recourse is Going to be tempered with that recourse component thrown in there and I know that Several of the existing blockchains have attempted to do that by having you know a regnet on top of the What's out there and then Holding the parties accountable for that in an x in an off-chain manner and then forcing them to to reverse By uh giving the money back or doing something You could also argue vip in that a properly implemented dlt or blockchain solution wouldn't encounter that problem at all I I conceptually struggle with editable blockchains, which aren't blockchains to my mind No, it's not it's not editable in the sense that it would be okay. This is uh gone on Now we reverse the transaction by another transaction, right? I mean it's not I mean we don't we don't So we didn't have to go to the chameleon hash approach You know implemented by Accenture, but Right wrong that uh If properly implemented these edge cases, uh, you know the frequency should drop drastically Right. Yeah But they're still there and we have to In order to bring the hearts and minds We have to address them or we have to talk about them Right to actual data saying look, you know before when everything was settled by hand This was the frequency of uh, you know reconciliation. Uh, what do you call it errors? And then so it's interesting the individual derivatives world In a lot of the trade are done most of it even today Bilaterally over the phone and and each party has their own representation of the state and then they try to put those states in This is a big problem because they you know what what they say in the forum what they end up in actually executing or entering the their own system There's a big discrepancy and I can't say here's a big problem So to address that is there in cdm, uh, in in this the cdm There in this event specification There are a way to identify that you are this is a correction to an pre-agreed trade and hence This cancels or replays of the other and there's a whole data mechanism using linkages and and uh an ashes so that uh, you would have a proper chain of amendments You know to specify how your contracts have been amended So you need the same case you could take the same event model to say if there was a payment the payment happened Uh, that was erroneous you would again You know data standards aren't so small contact be able to amend already in essentially reversed by You know implementing data standards using is the cdm-based contract. So that's how the The methodology is being evolved Uh within the new data spec now, you know, if you look at the existing standards in fpml and fix Are not addressed. They're purely messaging putting to parties and you know, supplement is not something that's being addressed effectively As bad as unless you go into the iso You know the swift based standard. Yeah, I see your point man I I I think the devil's in the details of what these edge cases are and the overlay with blockchain because I think a lot of those edge cases go away Yeah Um and vip and I don't mean to be rude. It's a great call and I'm happy to keep going But I do do have a hard stop at 10 o'clock. Is there an invite? Going out for calendars that I missed or is there something I need to do in wiki to make sure is on my calendar This wasn't in my calendar today Well, what's happening is it's a piecemeal invite being sent out by the community architects actually unfortunately um Karen has dropped off but uh, I cannot Edit the hypologic calendar only he or one of the community architects can do it and since we haven't fixed on an actual time Uh, they haven't sent out the invite, but they did send out the invite for today's but only unfortunately yesterday So you may not have received it, but you're right We are coming up. We are past three minutes from the time and you know, we should uh Ring off and But one more thing before we go we can continue to uh collaborate on the wiki on the email list on the rocket chat To keep our momentum going because every two weeks Is often, you know, we forget what we did So, uh, the most important thing is to keep Keep engaging on an asynchronous basis Sounds good gents. Sounds good everyone. Thank you All right So unless there are some closing thoughts from anyone, I am going to end the call Anyone has anything more to say? Great chatting with you Thank you. All right Thanks a bit. Thank you