 My name is Nina Chinko and I'm a vice president at Catalyst Opportunity Funds Which is a impact-oriented real estate investment platform That invests in the ground-up development of affordable and workforce affordable housing and I'm going to be moderating the panel today I'm thrilled to be at Socap. It's been a really exciting week It's hard to believe this is the last content session at Socap It's been busy. So we very much so appreciate you all being here with us And I think it can very you know confidently and boldly say that this panel will not disappoint a Lot of time and thought went into selecting You know the most innovative thoughtful knowledgeable seasoned experts in housing And so I'm delighted to have these three on the stage with me today We're really hand-selected to talk about about their work in this space We're gonna be talking about one of the the great crises of our time, which is the housing affordability crisis in us We have hit a true inflection point for the first time in US history About half so 49% of all US rental households are cost burdened Which means that they spend more than 30% of their income on housing costs and of that number about half So 20 million households spend more than 50% of their annual household income on housing So a crisis of this scale a crisis so acute and widespread requires it requires innovation It requires cross-sector collaboration thought leadership certainly some grit and Today we're going to be hearing from leaders in health care leaders in banking leaders in the real estate space on how they're partnering and innovating to expand the affordable and essential worker housing stock and also provide wraparound services to address a broader set of social determinants through the locus of housing So I'm gonna take a few minutes to introduce the panelists and then we'll dive in with the discussion So on my left here. I have Andy McMahon Who is the vice president of impact investment with the health equity group at United Health Group? In his role Andy works very closely with the United Health Group treasury team on their tax credit and social impact investment portfolios and specifically on Expanding and diversifying the ways in which they invest to support and strengthen communities across the US and to improve community health outcomes Andy's tax credit investment work includes a 200 million health and housing fund that invests in affordable housing and services Prior to joining United Health Care Andy worked for the corporation for supportive housing for 15 years and there he led an array of national and state and local efforts to align systems and integrate resources to create Housing opportunities for vulnerable populations Prior to that Andy held positions in both the state and local government He was a lobbyist for state housing and community development in DC And he also helped to found and was the first executive director of a nonprofit housing organization in Minnesota So welcome Andy Next to Andy. I have Celia smooth who has over 20 years of experience in affordable housing With specific expertise in financing and in regulatory compliance She's currently the senior vice president at Keybank heading up Lytec So low-income housing tax credit multi-fund investing affordable housing preservation investments and also SBIC investments Prior to Keybank Celia served as a vice president at the National Affordable Housing Trust where she developed funds focused on supporting BIPOC developers and also provided technical support for nonprofit organizations and Housing authorities she also served as a director of LISC housing and managed a national team there that set housing strategies and and policy as well as structured and Race capital for and managed housing funds and she's also an attorney. So prior to joining LISC She was an attorney with HUD and several other private national law firms that focused on affordable housing So last but certainly lot least is Jeremy Keel Jeremy is an incredible leader innovator and Practitioner in the impact investing space and specifically within the impact-oriented real estate investment space He's the co-founder and managing partner of catalyst opportunity funds which is a real estate impact investment firm with about a billion dollars of Real estate across the US and catalyst specifically invests in affordable and workforce affordable housing Jeremy is also a co-founder and Partner at the sorenson impact group, which is an institutional impact asset management and advisory platform And prior to founding catalyst and the sorenson impact group. He was the president and CEO of the sorenson impact center Which is a university based think tank that focused on social impact and innovation Prior to that he was a senior advisor to the mayor of his hometown of Salt Lake and also spent 10 years as a corporate lawyer So I wanted to start by setting the stage a bit on the housing affordability crisis We're experiencing in the US and then dive into a little bit of what what each of you do more specifically So Jeremy, I'm wondering if I can actually start with you You founded catalyst five years ago You founded it specifically to address what you saw as an escalating housing affordability crisis So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what the crisis looked like then How it's changed and what it looks like today and then what catalysts role is in addressing that crisis Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Nina. Thanks for for everybody being here. It's great to be with you I thought when you were introducing us and you said, you know We did this very thoughtful approach to the panel to get national experts and leaders and practitioners I thought you're gonna say but those guys were busy. So we got so we asked these three folks to come instead But no, I'm really happy to be here and You know in particular to be with these other panelists, you know, Andy and Celia and Nina who are good friends and colleagues So Nina stole my favorite stat on the affordability crisis Everybody's talking about the affordability crisis. I think it's helpful to actually put some data behind it and And I think Nina's got, you know Really the headline stat that should keep everybody up at night a little bit Which is that basically half of the you know households in this country are Spending more than 30% of their income on rent, which is kind of the HUD threshold for You know cost burden basically and when you get to that level of cost burden You're effectively and it's hard for some of the folks in this room You know probably me included to kind of put yourself in this context But when you're making Those kinds of decisions with how you're going to allocate your discretionary income It means you're making trade-offs with other parts of your your life and And other kind of opportunities that become foreclosed to you because you're just so all in on your rent or your mortgage payment or Whatever it is Half I think Nina also mentioned half of those folks that are cost burden are severely cost burden meaning they're spending at least 50% of their incomes on you know rents or mortgages And and they're even more so you just have so much less to go around to cover other kind of you know key items in your life transportation, you know education You know food grocery those kinds of things so so I think really impacts for real people When you think about the magnitude of the problem there there's an estimated five and a half million unit shortfall In this country in terms of getting to kind of a healthy housing market where Where folks that need housing have access to the housing and That's a big number obviously The problem with that number is that there's no sort of silver bullet. There's no There's nothing sort of in sight that is helping to kind of you know Reduce that number that that number is only getting bigger and bigger over time Part of that is because there's effectively a market failure in in real estate development right now Which is that as construction costs have gotten very high In the last few years as interest rates have gotten very high in the last year 18 months or so Effectively the only projects if they pencil at all But the only projects to pencil, you know in this day and age are effectively luxury kind of you know high-end Units for the very you know kind of class a segment of the market So much so that Harvard's Joint Center and Housing Studies estimates that about one of every ten new units It's getting built in this country is going to that demographic that Nina talked about, you know, super low-income deeply affordable and or kind of workforce affordable the other nine nine out of ten units that are being built in the country are Going to that kind of luxury end of the market so Five and a half million unit shortfall, you know getting bigger effectively every year Part of what I think probably has to happen at some level and I'm sure we'll get into this You know where I see market failure. I think about you know government stepping in and trying to solve this problem that the federal level you have the light tech program which You know Celia and Andy spent a lot of time in and are you know our experts in That's a great program the problem with the light tech program is it's a finite allocation of tax credits every year and so There's a lot of new units that we can be thankful for that are sort of You know financed and sourced through the light tech program, but it's not enough And it's also not doing anything for that kind of missing middle demographic the folks with You know the folks with jobs, but who can increasingly no longer afford to live in their own communities you know bank tellers cops nurses teachers, you know kind of the the You know sort of the proverbial backbone of the workforce in in these communities The last thing I'll say just to kind of set the stage a little bit at least from my perspective is that You know to need this point when we started out with catalyst five years ago The affordability crisis felt very acute in the coastal markets places like San Francisco, New York Places that we were focused on, you know, Salt Lake City Nashville, you know, Minneapolis kind of some of the secondary markets It didn't really feel that way those places still felt fairly affordable and there were not a lot of There were not a lot of warning signs, I guess in those markets So still felt like kind of mainly a coastal problem in the last five years that has completely You know changed and every community that we're in doesn't matter kind of where it is in the country How big it is the number one Sort of complaint from you know local elected officials, you know local communities, etc It's just like we can't afford to live and work in in these communities anymore. So I think the affordability crisis has now You know kind of run the table and gone across the whole country And I don't see any good sort of policy solutions at the federal level Some states are stepping up in different ways kind of innovating in ways that they can local governments as well But there's no real silver silver bullet on the on the kind of horizon to solve the problem Do you want to share just a little bit about catalyst and what what catalyst does to address this crisis? Yeah, so we we have You know, I guess sort of in our own way trying to nibble away at that five and a half million unit sort of deficit we're focused on ground-up development and Ground-up development of mainly kind of workforce attainable and also deeply affordable Housing units in the country typically that's part of a mixed income Structure where you might have a mix of again deeply affordable workforce affordable and maybe even kind of market rate units all Part of the same kind of community which we think is a best practice and in urban development We are not developers. We partner with developers. So we're kind of LP capital partners to developers and What we've done I think pretty effectively over the years has gone out and found a network of You know sort of best-in-class community driven developers who are local to their to their communities These these are low-income communities They tend to skew communities of color and the developers sponsors that we're working with as partners Are also largely BIPOC and or women led development firms, which we think is really Pretty cool and differentiated Those folks are building projects with the full support of their community. It's a very different You know flavor of development than what you You know what you might find in other contexts in these kinds of communities And so it's it's a lot of fun to kind of bolt onto those folks and and provide You know equity capital to to fund their pipeline Because it's really kind of a grassroots You know support type structure that they're that they're working with they've done a lot of civic engagement a lot of outreach to the community And so we become their equity partners We're now on our you know second third and fourth deal in some cases with a lot of those same sponsors So that's what we do We we have a very kind of robust impact reporting and measurement framework Which I think I'll give a chance to talk about in just a minute But yeah, really putting kind of impact and community at the core of what we do Thanks, Jeremy. So Celia. I'd love to come to you next you've been in housing for a long time I started when I was a baby So if you have anything to add about how the housing crisis has evolved over the course of your career I'd love to hear that And I'd also love to hear a little bit more about your specific work at key bank And what role banks play in addressing the house of affordability crisis? So I will say that for myself I've First job at a law school was a hut. So I have been a house or my entire career Even though I work mostly in the finance part legal than finance part of Of this industry I've always considered myself a house or I Think that's a really important differentiation as most folks kind of work in the industry You know, there's a lot of talk about yields and leverage and all these terms But I think that the difference is if you if you embrace the idea of being a house Or you realize that you need to do all those things you to talk about all those things But the idea the goal is is to create and preserve the housing and if you Approach it from that perspective. I think that that is a real differential than how you actually care and think about The eventual family that's going to benefit from the work that you're doing. It's important And so I would say in terms of the affordable housing So there's a couple things I always like to say we have a crisis. We know that we have to do something I think about the the Every deal or every fund I've worked on since my career started I remember starting my career Working on hope six projects. I closed hope six projects for HUD. I was in Philadelphia working with the Philadelphia Housing Authority and I remember the Life the remember going out to the site and understanding like why we needed like why we needed to change How we addressed public housing how we needed Capital to address public housing and it also made me realize that This idea of a federal solution It just wasn't going to happen even with how much you know dollars were being appropriated for hope six the the the times when you know the government wrote really really big checks For housing to build that housing to to to support that housing It's just it didn't exist anymore, and I really have a hard time seeing how that's going to change at any time soon So we as Housers we as industry professionals had to start thinking smarter about how we Leverage all the different resources to actually get to a place where we can build and preserve this housing And it and it's very clear that it wasn't going to that we weren't going to be able to just rely on a public resource We needed to rely and work within leverage private resources And you even had to be more flexible, and you had to be more creative even doing that So throughout career I can think about all the like a random like Hairbrain ideas I've come up with with my team and finding ways to like address certain housing Affordability and like when like in our first kind of conversations we would have about this It really may have sounded crazy, but in turn it turned out to be some of the best ideas we ever came up with So I want an idea. I've just this we've talked a lot about multi-family housing, but I always distinctly remember being in the room with a group of people including the mayor of Detroit and you know You would think that in a city like Detroit housing affordability wouldn't be an issue, but it is All right, you would think that in the city that has such a decline in population, you know How do you have housing? Scarity you have housing scarcity even in the city that has population decline and And they had you know, there was all this like, you know How do you address vacant properties and all that and that was great Those are great discussions We need to figure out how to address that but one of the things that the mayor said and I I will always remember this He was like, well, what do we do with the people who are still here? How do we address housing and like the state of the housing for the families that are still here? And so the idea is what do we need to do? What do we need to create so that we can help families repair their homes in a market where there is no value? Right home repair loans all come from like some idea that there's equity in homes that didn't exist in Detroit So we created we literally created a program and we created a debt instrument that allow people with zero equity to finance home repairs and To me every time and we were faced with some incredible Problem to address some issue of housing something to show affordability. I realized that the the thing that made The difference was approaching it from the home from the sense of being a house or but also approaching it from the sense Like you have to think differently, right and how you actually achieve these things another example I have is Denver so the city of Denver they had all this high Market rate housing that was built But all the people who worked in downtown Denver couldn't afford to live in all the high-rate market housing and the The mayor at the time and the city council that we had to figure out some way to address it and you had resources for families that were you know there were 60 and 30 percent AMI and below obviously we need more resources for those families but like that missing middle was a huge issue and like 70% of the service staff nurses Techs and all the hospital systems couldn't afford to live downtown and they were literally driving 30 40 50 minutes just to come into work. And so like how do you address it? So, oh, well, is there a way that we can actually fund with Leveraging private and city resources to come up with a local voucher program I spent six months trying to design and figure out how do you do a local voucher like and so I Talk about the dynamics of affordable housing and how we as an industry address that I always say that No matter what we will come up with a program to address it Remember the time when we didn't have a bond market We created a program to buy to buy bonds even though there was no bond market So I say that to say that the creativity is Definitely one of the trademarks. I think of our industry and those of us who have been doing this for a very long time You just you had to be creative in order to be successful in order to get anything done And and what do you just to for the audience? What do you do right now at key bank? Can you say that in your own words? Yeah, so I so what I in typical fashion of corporate America? I have a title, but I have four jobs So I technically run our Our fund investment strategy so anything that has a fund sponsor That where we could we as an investor can put money into a fund equity capital into a fund And that supports a series of lower-tier deals on our housing side But also supports on our on our SBIC site, which are small business investment Corporates that would have support small businesses. We basically place that money in there So I have a team that I work with one person from my team on the housing side is here Chris McKenzie And so that's technically what I do the other things that I do I lead our entire impact strategy for our entire platform Mainly it's because like when you start asking questions of like why we do this why this partner versus that partner You know, could we do better here? I think like it's one of those things where you asked him any questions It was like, you know, those are good questions. Why don't you figure that out? Job to figure that out and figure out ways that we can do better And I think the third part of what we do I think a lot of this is about trying to be as comprehensive and holistic as a As basically a bank as in the day we're still a bank, but we're a bank that really cares about community You know, we're based in Cleveland, you know, our footprint kind of hugs Canada, so for Dakotas and Minnesota And we also have Alaska So like we are in a lot of basically communities a lot of the Rust Belt communities or I think they're called legacy cities now legacy city communities And so there's no way to you know, we care about those communities and unless we have a comprehensive holistic Vision about how we address that we need to think about more and we need to be able to do more within the confines of just rules and Capital constraints of being a bank. So we even launched us indications platform So we can work with our developers and work with larger kind of Community and comprehensive responses to to housing and there's a way for us to kind of bring in and work with other investors They may have appetite and also has to think like we do think about community think about impact. So that's the other job Andy I'd love to many hats. Yes, Andy. I'd love to come to you next So you work for United Health Group? I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about the social determinants of health And you know specifically the role the built environment and housing in particular plays in health and health outcomes and then you know What your role at UHG is and and why is UHG kind of investing in the social determinants? Sure. Thanks so much and this on Okay, great So and thank you all great to be here such a great group of people So really appreciate it So I think one thing to know at the outset right is that we're not a bank or a financial intermediary We're a health care organization, right? And so I think from our perspective You know having a safe decent affordable place to live is essential to being healthy, right? So that's kind of the cornerstone for us is to understand the enormous impacts that the built environment including a safe decent affordable place to live has on Not only individuals health, but also community health right as we think about ways as we're doing redevelopment or other things Or how that fits into a broader kind of community strategy, which I think we'll talk about In a little bit, but so I think you know from our perspective We are and I'll talk about our fund in a little bit but but we're really focused on not only Helping to expand the the supply or the stock of affordable housing in the country But also thinking about ways in which we can at the community level and at the project level Integrate housing and health care and integrate those systems and think about how can Affordable housing developers or public housing agencies work with federally qualified health centers that are probably a stone's throw away Right, and there's just rights the classic we've all been I'm old We've been talking about silos for three or four decades now I think but um, but it's true right and so thinking about How we do that and and I would also just say you know from we also you know all of that It's just kind of entirely just community focus for the entire community You know in particular, you know, we serve seven million people on Medicaid a lot of whom have housing challenges And so you know for our members we also provide housing navigation services and supports to ensure that that they are getting the safe decent affordable housing That they deserve and so my role really at United Health Group is to Partner with our Treasury team. I see my dear colleague and friend mr. Stephen Henry in the audience there Who's with the just amazing Treasury team that we have there, you know, and we're really focused I think in in partnership with Stephen and his team and others on figuring out You know again how we Expand our investments in affordable housing and I think importantly to what I think both of you have mentioned is you know We certainly will talk about kind of our investments in in the lie tech space But also thinking about ways that we use equity or concessionary debt Or other tools and thinking about how we can support affordable housing investments And then also thinking about where there might be opportunities to create workforce housing that is outside of the lie tech space Where you have in you know to some of the folks Jeremy may be talking about where? You know you can you know We think there's the potential at least for thinking about how you could build workforce housing outside of the tax credit system So that you would be creating Additive units. I think Jeremy you said it perfectly, right? I mean lie tech is great We're substantial investors in it and it's fine. I lie tech's gonna deliver what lie tech's gonna deliver And so we're we're a a robust partner in that But we're also trying to find these other ways of financing affordable housing because we know how great the need is and We need to be finding ways to add those additive marginal units and communities across the country Amazing thank you Andy and when you're thinking about workforce housing. I'm curious just off off the top of my head You know, are you thinking about? UHG employees as well So it could be I mean it would it would again as we think about that It would it would not be kind of dedicated for but we certainly have lots of folks that we serve that are there Nurse practitioners or community health workers or a whole host of folks So I think you know like a lot of you know pretty every single investment we make through this is what in health care Ease we call plan agnostic, which means it's open to everybody There's who aren't in health care. And so I think you know, we would certainly view that in the same way You know, but if the opportunities are and and some of the people who work, you know, the benefit I think that's you know all the better So I want to segue to talk a little bit about community and it's already come up a couple of different times in this conversation So really the best most effective most authentic real estate and housing strategies hold community at the center They're done in collaboration with the community not to the community by an outside group So as institutional investment shops, I'm curious to hear more about your approach to doing that Jeremy I'm wondering if I go back to you. I'm curious about how you keep community at the center of what you do Yeah, I think this is I'm glad you asked questions. I think this is you know part of the secret sauce for you know being successful in a strategy like this because You know, we're local. I mean my firm is based in Salt Lake City, Utah We're local to Salt Lake City, Utah. I Can't pretend to be local to these other community and yet we're investing nationally I can't pretend to be local to these other communities and so I think the beauty of the work that we do is we do it through partnerships with people that are local to their communities And I think that that's sort of a key a key point We we have a few Sort of tactics I would say to kind of help ensure that we are as Nina said keeping, you know community first One is that we we actually have a very robust what we call community needs assessment that we That we do on every Kind of sub market that we're proposing to invest in so every neighborhood every neighborhood that we're looking at a project And we'll actually do a very comprehensive, you know Data-driven needs assessment that looks at something like 25 different kind of publicly available data sets That go down to the census tract level to the very kind of neighborhood level and that gives us a snapshot in time of what's happening in that community from a You know socioeconomic perspective You know level of educational attainment, you know, you know affordability issues in the housing market Etc. And that then informs a very I think robust conversation that we have with our developer partners About what sort of programming ought to go into the real estate that that they're building in that community Again, not that we pretend to know or have the answers but in a very data-driven way it at least sort of Sparks a conversation with the developer and that kind of iterative You know conversation that we've had with developer partners with the local community, you know local mayor's offices, etc Have led to for example in food deserts You know co-op grocery stores going into the ground level of our buildings where you have affordable units You know affordable housing upstairs and a co-op grocer on the on the ground floor, right? That's a great way to both address the affordability crisis in that community, but then also bridge the gap to You know services and amenities that that community really really needs In other instances we put in, you know workforce training facilities, you know again on the ground floor You know community credit unions that are then providing financial literacy programming, you know home ownership 101 programming things like that You know healthcare obviously, you know Andy's spoken very articulately about the social determinants We also have a you know number of instances where we've actually brought in Healthcare clinics so preventative health care services to a low-income community You know below the below the housing units themselves that are you know providing kind of preventative health care services to that community so that that's all informed by and driven By the community needs assessment that we do the thing that we have is we have something called an impact scorecard which we Which we sort of you know do on the front end of every investment that we make Where we look at the project we're being asked to invest in and then sort of score it from an impact perspective as to How well it's addressing the needs that have been identified in that community and one of the big kind of categories on our scorecard is what is the civic engagement process that this developer has been through to get the support of the community and And we score that I think in a very objective way and that's a big sort of driver of the Kind of the underwriting for that project The other thing that we try to do and I think a thoughtful way is is think about the wraparound services so these are investments in the built environment, but what does the service environment look like that kind of wraps the real estate and You know, we've got some great examples of nonprofits that we partnered with You know alongside the real estate to provide services to our tenants, but also to the broader community We're toying around with an idea currently to bring in kind of clinically trained community health care workers into our building that are providing kind of service navigation Functions for the tenants in the building But again also more externally facing helping the broader community get access to services things like that So always thinking about, you know, how does the built environment become the locus for? You know thoughtful community programming into that neighborhood Yes, so a very holistic approach not just housing but really thinking about how to Kind of plug service Gaps and amenities in these communities through through your buildings Celia Keybank is focused on community development Can you talk about what that means and why it's so important to key bank and also how you're thinking about The communities that you serve in addition outside of housing or kind of in addition to housing So as I said before like our we have this kind of odd We held Canada footprint, but at the same time we also realized that we a lot of our partnerships that we've built over time a lot of the developer partnerships organization Like CDFI's and stuff like that community development financial institutions are Just so you know everybody knows our industry has a lot of acronyms Someone could be the acronym police if we say one like what is that what is that? So we built all these partnerships And a lot of that is the reason being we built these diverse partnerships So we can have the most diverse and holistic comprehensive response to the communities that we're in right We you know our group is really community development Finance, you know investing in lending and that is a large part we do a large part of our Investment and lending activity is really focused in on housing But we are fully cognizant that housing can't be the only thing that we address and we really want to have a robust Response to the community we work very closely with our corporate responsibility team to make sure that the nonprofit organizations within the communities that where we are Financing or investing in that built environment Actually have the resources so they can provide the services the community outreach and all those other things that make and that That basically helped to address and my I think a real quick and easy way to think about it How are the things we're doing making people's lives better? Right we can finance and invest in the housing, but where are the other things that we need to do so that people have healthy Healthy happy families And so like a lot of that is thinking about what are the other partnerships? What are the other things that we can support like I mentioned before that we do small business Investments so we do investments and defunds that basically address small businesses And I've had several even internally like okay So why do you know what why don't we put this with this group that pretty much focuses in on housing and our response is really really easy We are doing comprehensive response to communities and I always used to say that you know housing is where big small business goes asleep You know most of those you know there's been so many studies done like everybody like small you invest in small businesses Those are the people who are hiring the families that live in the housing that live in those communities That's you know that is their hiring and their job base So if you want to address all things in communities, you've got to address small business You've got to address the housing and then we also You know I won't get into the tax part of it But there's some funky stuff with new market tax credits that doesn't make it great For all banks to invest in it But we still do it even though it's not you know It's not the best for us from from accounting and tax perspective Mainly because like the new markets are dressing community infrastructure, you know, we've invested in funds that address charter schools Cleveland doesn't have the best school system And we want to address ability for education for the families that we're happy You know that for the housing that we're investing in we also have to invest in charter schools We have to invest in every aspect of a built environment that also provides of comprehensive response to the families so that everybody has an opportunity to be happy Thank You Celia Andy I'm curious about how you use the social determinants of health framework, which is a broad framework and mandate And apply it down at the local level at the community level And if in your experience are there, you know markers of successful strategies that are perhaps both scalable But also, you know deeply community oriented and rooted yeah No, thank you for the question when I saw we were gonna there's a specific question about community I was like I was invited to the right panel Because what I would say, you know, even as a large kind of sprawling organization What I will tell you is that from from where we sit on on our team, you know Genuine real authentic listening and community engagement isn't a good thing to do It's an unequivocally necessary thing to do to be successful kind of hard stop, right? It's not like oh, it'd be good if we did that, but if we don't well, you know fast doesn't work I'll just go ahead and do it anyway, right that no that's it doesn't work that way, right? I mean has in the past but that doesn't you don't maximize Impact for the communities you're trying to serve unless you are authentically and fully and comprehensively Engaging with them and so I think you know from from our perspective one That's just a core tenant to what we do and I'll and I'll give you two examples and in in a moment But um, you know, I think from to your to your point about kind of the how do you be? Authentic to the community, but also scale, right? I I think it kind of the old 80 20 principle, right? Well, there's some things and it's probably more like 60 40 or something But we're everything doesn't have to be completely bespoke, right? There are things like every community is different undoubtedly and so you need to adapt your your approach to that community and the people in that community But communities also share a lot of things in common so you don't have to recreate the wheel 100 percent, right? And so that's I think the approach we take and it's a balancing act of saying How can we not literally start from scratch every time you walk into someplace because that's not Necessary or efficient, but also how do we ensure that we are tailoring what we're investing in and the engagements? We're doing to each of those communities. So that's kind of how we Try to thread that needle and and I think you know two quick examples I would give you is that we We're delighted several months ago to announce a investment in impact Appalachia So we are partnering with our friends invest Appalachia Deeply rooted in the communities of Appalachia. We're focused on the 25 poorest communities of Appalachia Primarily in West Virginia, Kentucky Eastern Ohio Western Virginia and North Eastern Tennessee, I think I got my geography mostly right Right, but there the key there is it and so I've been there a few times to you know Go and meet with people and then our Treasury team has been there as well But right we rely on our partners there, right? We I don't know that I didn't know that they had the ability to or the need to create this amazing farm that also had a workforce component that then also they were they were You know growing fresh fruits and vegetables and then selling them to the county school board So the kids could have healthy meals, right? And and we made what I would say is a very small. It was probably a total of two hundred thousand dollars that went into refrigerator warehouse and And refrigerated trucks to do the disbursement and so they could scale their own operation, right? Andy McMahon sitting in West part of Minneapolis had no clue, right? But we have the right trusted partners on the community that knew that we're in Beckley West, Virginia And this is what we need to be doing. So I think that is is really critical to how we Do our work and then the other thing I would mention is that we partner a lot with our Colleagues and friends within community and state at United Health Care, which is our Medicaid organization and you know and in more than a couple of different Communities where we are going in and very authentically going in and creating these community-based collaborations with housing authorities with federally qualified health centers with local nonprofits and Very intentionally with you know multiple principles But I think the two that are most near and dear to me are shared decision-making and what we're going to be doing and co-creation of Intervention right that that is not how a lot of people roll right a lot of people say well, I saw this I know this we're going to do that and This is this is the wicket that I use and so we're going to use this wicket to do that Right that happens a lot and so we are unequivocally flipping that on its head and saying no We're going to listen to the community engage with the community then we're going to Share decision-making and decide what we're going to do and then we're going to share how we're going to do it So those are just a couple examples of how from our perspective even as even as a large organization We feel like we are able to be rooted in and keeping community at the center Those are fantastic. Those are great examples And I think you're so right each community is different it has unique needs But also the kind of markers of what makes a community healthy and robust and and thriving is the same And so do you have a framework that you use? Are you developing a framework that has some flexibility for kind of more nuanced? Yes And we're definitely looking at that and a lot of it so we have some kind of core markers that we are Looking at in terms of kind of economic vitality housing affordability access to food access to transportation And then within each of the especially with the catalyst It depends then we also figure Markers based on that intervention, right? So if we're focused on maternal health, excuse me What are the things we're going to be able to look at? So that's a good example where we have these kind of overarching Kind of markers that we can look at you know that are these social determinants around food housing Transportation etc. But then then having that but then layering on top of that What is it and how can we think about the markers and the measurements of the particular intervention, right? You're gonna be thinking about and thinking about the impact that a maternal health program has You know on on you know pre you know early childhood or early birth You know it's very different than folks who want to focus on childhood asthma And how do we reduce that that so much of it's rooted in in old housing stock, right? Is the short answer there and so we kind of add that component to each of our cattle So that's the kind of component that's kind of tailored to that community with our other broader rubric. It's fantastic And one last follow-up and sorry to pick on you continually But so there are I think five social determinants of health and then sub-bullets within each of them How are you thinking about prioritizing the social determinants? Are you thinking about the right balance or? Focused on some of more than others. That's a great question I mean I think I think we try to think about where we can have the greatest impact Right and so I would say if you think about right through our affordable housing investments We can help on the affordable housing side. I would say on the food security side I think we do we we can we can do there and I think on the transportation We can do some right and I think you know You know where they can in a couple of communities where we're trying to think about okay How do we think about that and certainly from a housing perspective, right? We try to think about can we invest in housing? That's kind of near you know transit oriented developments and and those sorts of things But so I think right because they're all so important You know I think we'd try not to kind of leave anyone off or kind of pick a favorite child But rather think about in this community. Where are we best positioned to impact? You know the one or two the most? fantastic So I want to switch gears a little bit This isn't necessarily the easiest time to be investing in housing Interest rates are high construction costs are high, you know high inflation And doing work right now requires a lot of creativity a lot of innovation a lot of you know partnership as you guys have talked about already innovative financing structures and strategies Earlier this month Jared Bernstein who's the chair of the US Council for Economic Advisors said and you said this earlier Jeremy He said flat out in a press conference that affordable housing does not pencil and that there's a market failure and essentially that government needs to step in So Jeremy, you know as a firm investing in ground up Affordable and workforce affordable housing. How do you make it all pencil in this environment and how have you had to get creative? Yeah, so I think that's a great question. I you know, there's a doom and gloom Story here, which is the nothing pencils and you know the affordability crisis getting worse Celia made a really good point Which is like if you're you know waiting for the federal government to step in and solve this like don't hold your breath So there's that doom and gloom, you know version of this the the counter, you know the flip side of that coin is that You know necessity is the mother of all invention and and because this has become such a crisis because there you know There's no sort of forthcoming, you know magic silver bullet from the federal government What you find in these local communities is a lot of innovation and that's on the financial side That's on the you know kind of development side, you know the bricks and sticks side of this of this work And so, you know, again, it's not perfect. It's not going to solve the problem, you know writ large But there is some I think you know really promising innovation that's happening in in some of these communities and part of what we try to do a catalyst is frankly You know invest in that innovation and then try to lift it up last year We had last couple years We've had panels where we bring our developers at SoCAP and other conferences and get them to talk about the work that they're doing that You know the ways they've solved for problems like the ones we're talking about in their communities Because what we find very often not surprisingly to Andy's point about silos is that these folks work effectively in their communities But they're not really talking to other folks and other communities doing similar work So that sort of transmission of best practices isn't really happening So we try to find ways to kind of bring those folks together to get them to kind of tell their Tell their story. I'll tell you just three really quick examples from our portfolio We just invested in Winston Salem, North Carolina with an African-American developer there who has built a relationship with the Southern Baptist Church And it turns out that a lot of these churches in the South have big surface parking lots and other land holdings around their churches where You know and that land isn't really doing anything from anybody at this point But the the churches are willing to kind of put those parcels into a redevelopment effort That creates workforce housing affordable housing other economic activity Other services for the community and these churches are actually becoming part of the cap stack, right? They're contributing the land at a discounted, you know heavily discounted basis and And then sort of writing into the deal that little bit of subsidy in the land basis is actually really Catalytic that that helps make that kind of redevelopment possible. So we just invested in one of these projects in Winston Salem We're looking at a programmatic partnership with this developer group in other Sort of similar context throughout the southeast That's one example. There's another example of a developer in the Pacific Northwest and the other side of the country Who has figured out a way to work very closely with government on parcels that the government has effectively? Landbanked these are kind of urban infill parcels that the local RDA of the city has control of Can't really make sense of she's able to go in she has a very Plain vanilla development program format where she stamps out the same building You know every time and she's done like 50 of these throughout the Pacific Northwest It's not like, you know sexy architecture necessarily But there's a level of efficiency to what she's doing to where the rents can be at a price That's affordable for that community. So there's there's some innovation kind of in the bricks and sticks and and design side of things The last example is a partner of ours in in Minneapolis where where Andy is Who has gotten very good at sort of working with city count county and state in Minnesota? To get grants to support the work that he does so tax increment financing tax rebates, you know government grants, etc And there's some innovation in the capital stack there that allows him to deliver sort of new product in communities that otherwise You know these kinds of investments don't pencil in so again limited examples, but there are some sort of, you know You know light, you know points of hope or lights that that we look to a catalyst and we're interested in sort of finding those Investing in those and then lifting those up nationally So real kind of innovation in the project level capital stacks, which I think has been core to the firm since its founding The second fund that catalyst launched has a an innovative fund structure. That's also quite unique Yeah, so thank you for reminding me I meant to talk about that as well So that so everything I just described is kind of down to the project level at the fund level where catalyst sits We also recognize, you know kind of an opportunity to do something that was innovative So we created effectively a two-tron structure Where we have a market rate oriented kind of tronch B for investors that are looking for that that need that And then also created kind of a tronch B for less yield sensitive kind of more impact focused investors For whom a three to four hundred basis point discount on the financial return is Acceptable in exchange for sort of guaranteed impact or affordability in the portfolio And there's a number of those folks including this lovely woman you know to my right and It turns out that sort of the net effect of blending that the tronche and the tronch B capital together Results in a lower cost of capital to the projects that we're investing in Such that we can take a project that really only pencils at all of the units it effectively market rate rents and Bring that down to something that's more like 60 to even a hundred percent of the units below 80 percent of the area median income which is sort of the sweet spot for CRA You know healthcare some of the other you know kind of constituents that we that we work with so You know again not going to solve the affordability crisis writ large But we think it's innovative and it's certainly impactful in the communities that we're investing in And I'm curious just you know what has been the reception to this two-tron structure Has it really resonated with with people investors? Yeah, I think there are a variety of investors who have you know For a variety of reasons regulatory, you know CSR, you know, whatever it is They have a mandate And a mission around You know sort of addressing this crisis and so those are folks that Are actually very happy to be in this kind of tronche That doesn't mean that there's not a lot of also kind of market rate oriented investors That would also like to be in these projects if that works, you know For their perspective and so it's being able to kind of You know sort of tailor the capital to the different audiences that we're targeting And again, it doesn't take a lot of that kind of tronche B capital that slightly concessory capital To blend down kind of the aggregate cost to these to these projects in a way that's really really impactful And and allows us to get these You know these affordable units in place so I think it's been really well received in the market and Again just another example of kind of the innovation that's that's happening out there So Andy and Celia You both are allocators that have been in this space for a long time And I think both of you are already touched on some innovation that you've you've been a part of Have you had to get more creative in recent years as the kind of housing crisis has mounted and it's It's gotten harder to to make projects affordable housing projects pencil What are some, you know unique strategies either you're seeing out in the market or that you're kind of leading yourself? Um So I will say One I know we were thinking about doom and gloom, but I just was reminding people I have a lot of you know, really bright Millennials on my team and you know talking about seven percent interest rates I was like, okay when I was a 27 year old lawyer I was handed a whole stack of deals that were called faff deals And there were all these deals that were done in the 80s And they were being refinanced and I remember the first time I looked at a deal that had a 14 interest rate We lived through that we'll live through this My brother's first home he paid 18 and a half. Yeah. Yeah There's a question Um Sure, there will be time for questions at the end, but if it's yeah Apparently he was Um So I just I do I do always want to say that like we will we we live through that we will live through this The other thing I say I've mentioned earlier like we are the most resilient industry I think of any industry if there is something that becomes a huge obstacle Don't worry about it. We'll design a program to work around it Um, I think our industry is so much So I've been working with and talking to a bunch of australians that are also trying to address their affordable housing issues in australia and One of the reasons why that they they they will grab, you know Some of those experts will they'll bring us over to australia to speak to all of their housing Folks and the reason why they spend so much time looking at the us system Because even if you look at every country in the world and even though we have a housing crisis Even though we have you know Things that we have to address just the resiliency and the innovation and creativity Of our of our industry and of how we are addressed affordable housing is literally Other countries that are now starting to really figure out they have to come up with different Solutions to address their affordable housing issue. They are mimicking some of their new programs Off of our programs. So I think that there's something to be said about that So I don't want everyone to realize like we will we will make it through We we always do But I would say in terms of Creativity Right, you you think about like I am you know, I work at a bank. So like how creative can banks be But you be very surprised So if you have the right people in the room and the right intentions, how create if you can be One of the things that we consistently think about and one of the things we consistently do is that we Look at like what is the best way to kind of do that that The delivery right if it's not how do how are we financing all the parts and pieces of the project? Not only addressing, you know, okay construction costs You know, we've had I've literally had conversations just to happen my husband's also a hard attorney So he's downstairs. I'll be sometimes having a conversation upstairs I can hear him downstairs and then we're talking about what can we do to get like our early start I know that seems like a simple solution, right? But when you're working in the midwest and you're closing in november And you want to get started in the way that will help you address your construction timeline And you want to get started immediately Before the frost starts like just a simple little thing there You know address some of the cost factors that we that we were looking at in the lower tier deal And we realized that, you know, we were going to have to get hud On board with that and so the question is, you know, not only we were willing to look at that as a solution and creativity But also, you know Taking the the the role of also helping to engage the other financing partners So that we all could come to agreement in a way that will help find a solution for our project That's a small small example, but like those small examples, you know, multiplied by 100 It's really how you think about ways to be creative and just timing, right? I also think about One of the things that we are doing is this private partnership, right private public partnerships. We are Not only do we invest in housing not only do we invest with, you know, great sponsors like the catalyst fund But we also invest in creating local funds. So we're working with the city of cleveland We work with the city of cleveland and then we brought in a financial intermediary Like lisk and together we came up with a structure strategy to fund a cleveland housing fund And what that's going to do is address like the early start money for a lot of developers Like what that cost of capital is prohibitive to them to do all the things they need to do early enough To even get the project in the pipeline for credits or for other type of equity financing Non-elastic equity financing How do we make sure that we're providing the The support to think about how you plan for the other amenities Around that housing and where are the ways that something like a housing fund could address those things? I think that those are all of that is important, right? So it's not us Funding a specific deal. This is us funding a mechanism to address several deals Yeah, thanks. Oh, yeah Andy i'm curious for your thoughts as well Those are great. I mean, I think so I would mention a couple of things From my perspective, but i'm really glad you mentioned that kind of like construction start before frost like Your eyes may or may not glaze over, but it's a really important thing You know what I mean, and I just think to your point, right? I mean, I think there's right I fully agree on kind of write the the private public partnerships and expanding those I think you're spot on them and there are lots of i'm not going to go through everyone today But there are lots of examples like the one you just mentioned So you're around they can create Aren't going to create, you know 30 efficiencies in our delivery system But there are efficiencies that we can create and and the kind of time value of money when you get delayed by lots of things So I think there are um A number of things that honestly the the industry itself needs to look at and thinking about again At least to my knowledge, there's nothing revolutionary where we're going to be like, oh, we didn't realize we could save 30% if only we did like that's Highly unlikely that said I do think there are lots of things out there where we can think about The efficiency, uh, I do think we need to be focused on that You know as Jeremy and and you've both pointed out Nina crown kind of about the overall Need, right? It's like you may only have a you know small efficiency here But to your point if you do that efficiency 5,000 times it actually matters you would actually if you could execute on that efficiency at scale you could actually create you know a A measurable number of more units of affordable housing So I think the kind of you know, I think there's always a constant clamor for like we need more public investment We need private more private. That's all true. I also think there are efficiencies to be had You know and and I mentioned earlier right there were a health care organization And so, you know one of the things that we're trying to do as we think about Innovation is Where we can focus on the integration of health and housing, right? And so now in in 2020 we've launched a hundred million dollar health and housing fund Um, we added another hundred million in 2022. So it's now a 200 million dollar health and housing fund You know and I think um from our perspective the the three things that that you know We like to think our differentiators of that fund are one is that we're only investing Essentially in probably in projects that have that health and housing integration It could look like a lot of different things. It could be supportive housing for people experiencing homelessness It could be affordable senior housing with a care coordinator It could be affordable housing with a you know with an mo you with a federally qualified health center Where they could do that work. So that's one component The second is that we as united health group provide kind of seed financing for services Teach of the projects that we finance, right? It's there's no silver bullet You know, we're not providing, you know 10-year funding for something But we are providing kind of catalytic funding to to help them start and then the last thing that we're doing is Working with our partners to actually Measure resident health and wellness outcomes over four years. So we're asking questions about Access to primary care. We're asking questions about food insecurity out of covet actually now We have a question now around social isolation Which I will just do a 10 second commercial on if you haven't checked it out Vivek Murthy Our surgeon general has written a book and there's all sorts of studies out there now about the ridiculously horrible impacts that social isolation has on our Primary health our mental health Our entire lives. Um, so those are kind of, you know, I think the efficiencies, but then, you know, again as a health care organization We're trying to think about how can we innovate within the affordable housing developments to also then create those connections and bridges to the health care system Great I know we're coming up on our time And I want to maybe ask you guys one last question and then we'll go to the audience And so maybe just a sentence or two and Andy you just touched on it And Jeremy it certainly come up for you a number of times But you know, we're we've been talking a lot about your unique and very meaningful solutions to the affordable housing crisis But if we kind of zoom out and look at the scale of this crisis I'm curious just quickly from each of you. What is it going to take to actually solve this problem in the us? I'll have to go first and I'll be very brief. I mean I think I think one of the things and and I'll just say as a managed care organization Right, we have to have enormous amounts of money on our balance sheet in order to make investments So does every other managed care organization and lots of other organized large Institutions have ways that they're investing and I think one of the things that we need to do is try to get more of that kind of capital Focused on on affordable housing and and and educating people about the fact I think I know I've talked to lots of people and have been asked to talk to other people who think it's like a risky investment And it's like, well, no, not if you have the right partners and you underwrite it. It's it's really not less than a point zero zero four loss rate in affordable housing Nothing more secure Yeah Yeah, so my answer is going to be real quick money. We need more money We just need more money. We need smart money. We need money Non-greedy money. We need money Yeah, I I would agree with that I I come back to market failure You know, there's a reason that the private sector doesn't build Roads and freeways and train lines in this country. It doesn't pencil for the private sector to do that I think there has to be more public involvement. You know, the light tech program is necessary not sufficient It doesn't address the missing middle. I think government just has to be at the table and again states are dealing with this in some form or fashion In in isolated pockets the state of Minnesota just passed a billion dollar appropriation For affordable housing, which to my knowledge is the biggest investment by any state Per capita basis or otherwise into affordable housing the state of Utah where I'm from just passed a 25 million dollar appropriation Which is just not anywhere near enough. So, you know states like Minnesota may be You know, sort of the leading edge of of places that are going to kind of get You know get a grip on this, but I just think government has to be You know more at the table and and we need more private sector investment as well. I think it takes both So, yeah, I would love to open it open it up for questions. Um, yeah, and you had a question burning question Houston one of the most auto driven cities in the world And we're creating a corridor and it's it's a very community driven project with some historic buildings But we're taking these sites that would have been front litter townhome sites and creating what y'all would consider missing middle-income housing A thousand units on smaller sites Where we're stuck is parking code and we have not found one Financial institution in America that will segregate the economics of parking from unit mix and and we've done a few small projects And it's unbelievable The supply demand misalignment in this country of especially young people that want to rely on micro mobility transit Car share we have we're testing electric car shares infrastructure and even the city of houston, which is like You know not known for being progressive Under our current leadership gave us market-based parking so that they've said no parking is needed, but Every bank is still saying 1.4 parks per unit and that's 35 000 a park That's like over 300 a month amortized in somebody's rent check for market-based work. So like if there is one bank that will give us We have two projects that will pencil it like 12 to 13 other rent checks dignified courtyard style housing Sub hundred units clustered through the neighborhood. We can prove this model But there's not a bank in america that does That and from the health and the health impact is amazing because the people that live in the neighborhood are working and owning businesses in the Neighborhood 84 percent of our businesses in our first project live within walking distance to their shop So when you when you give them this condition It creates unbelievable Benefit so i'm curious if you have looked at in a post war or two auto obsessed city like houston any projects like that I will say that i'll never forget the So i don't know a lot who people who've been doing this for a long time There's this program called 202, which is a program done by hub for old people. I mean that's basically what it is Yeah, right. It's a program done for old people And I remember like like looking at these deals and like especially in cities like new york And the program still required parking And we're like this makes no sense one It's new york No one has a car Two grandma's not driving like it's just it It makes no sense and it took years for everyone to kind of kind of I call come to jesus and Now they're allowing all of those old 202 projects to now build new housing on those parking lots They made them out because they stopped their empty. There was no cars there and they were actually You know useless in and you and like in a city as dense as new york That parking was useful I I always think that like that like those lessons learned right eventually like people get it right So, you know, one of the things I always have a hard time like we have Projects where like that discussion comes up and it's usually some Construction guy and playing cost and review and they tell us because those people are not actually the finance or the housing people They're just they have they're for very specific There's a You know expertise in that particular area I think that what it does help and what does require is like the the folks who are actually working on the deal They're called the deal team really being able to have a discussion to say like in this case Even though our requirement may be why in this case We can have a deviation from that because it makes sense to have that deviation And we've you know, I would say that I've worked on so many deals in my I've only been at key bank for two years And I literally have seen four or five deals where we're like that doesn't make any sense Okay, we need the deviation from this requirement So I do think that it takes like having the right people in the room Especially having your deal people in the room Because I'm guessing it's probably some credit Some credit plan cost requirements sitting there It just takes the deal people and the front end deal people to actually have that conversation and be able to show like In this case the deviation makes sense I will say that a lot of local governments have already crossed the rubicon on this and have not You know have relaxed those requirements are done away with them all together So So part of the challenge that we're seeing with the capital stack Is that it only pencil out to the 60 or 80 percent AMI that doesn't represent the black or the latino population that need the housing So we're seeing a lot of the affordability going into that population that at the end is ending up displacing full communities In the urban centers My question is have you seen any creative creative capital stack That take the project below that 60 percent AMI Because at this point we have land to develop Light tech is too slow Light techs have the problem that it's way too slow. You have to wait five years to close it. So how can we deploy A this type of social impact investment to get to that that threshold below 60 percent AMI So we we we would have lots of discussions and I'm thinking about getting into this We go like for deeper income targeting, right? How do you address building housing that gets to much deeper incomes? You know like you know the different levels like 30 40 50 percent AMI and yes light tech does take time Anything that governments involve is always going to take time And then you and you'll see that a lot of the advocates and a lot of folks who work in the industry have done a lot Have done some good work And requiring that some of that housing that is being built and funded by light tech does get to deeper income targeting Because they build it out like I always say that funding rules Reflect policy. So like a lot of those QQ APs now qualify allocation plans. Nope Are Are requiring now some deeper income targeting as part of their rules like a part of their scoring You're more likely to get funded if you're getting to deeper income targeting, but that's only getting to a little bit of it I mean, there are definitely most of the rental subsidy programs are designed to address That you know deeper income targeting a problem is that we don't have enough of it, right? So we need to be able to figure out ways that how do we expand that housing? I will also say that one of the things that we did When I worked on a particular kind of like local housing fund, you know in combination with the local housing authority to city and the foundation in charlotte and This the the housing authority was also part at the table and one of the things that we did We built into this financing mechanism like you can get this financing mechanism And we'll find a way to work with the housing authority so that there's an idea of having Rental subsidy But you can't take the highest rental subsidy in other words If you developer wanted access to the subsidy the idea that you know technically this rental subsidy would pay You know market, right or a certain part of fmr So up to 120 fmr depending on if you were a small fmr I'm getting too hoodie but I'll stop but basically but like basically if you're a developer you can get like You can get a market rate rent A market rate rent even if you're a housing at 30 percent am i right? That's the reason why a lot of developers want this voucher But we were like well that only means that say that for just simple math I only like give us ability to have 10 In this portfolio, but if every developer remember we're providing some concessionary financing as part of this deal every developer you take Rent at 50 percent am i You'll take rents at 50 percent am i this voucher will fund you at 50 percent am i But you are housing a 30 percent am i tenant So that way we were able to take those 10 vouchers and then make them 20 So it's like things like that if you know work you think about it like really creatively if all the partners at the table Ways to do that and I think that combination of the concessionary financing combination of having the housing authority The foundation in the city at the table was our ability to change that dynamic Okay, can I add on to that so on the non-lytex side? And I don't know how it works in Philly. We don't have any projects in Philly, although Cilia is based there So there's a good resource there locally But in some of our other markets the local government that's putting in a tax increment financing You know commitment or a tax abatement or a grant The smart local governments will condition that money On an affordability set aside that's typically sub 60 percent am i and it's typically indeed so restricted indeed So getting to kind of light tech You know affordability levels But it's just through a subsidy from the local government so much easier to kind of You know manage an administer than than light tech But it would be like, you know 10 to 20 percent of the units. It's not going to be the whole building Because the building has to pencil Kind of on market rate terms But but you do get that 10 to 20 percent of units set aside 50 percent or below In perpetuity indeed so that that might be something to look at if if Philly doesn't have that You know you could advocate for it We've noticed that cities and counties around the country are starting to kind of converge on that model So I think we have time for maybe one more question. Yeah Completely different context. I'm from Mumbai and we're working on slum redevelopment and I could relate to All of the things that all three of you spoke and it's exciting to see sort of health and housing and finance sort of come together I have a question actually a couple of questions for Andy um You talked about how you're measuring the health impact as it relates to housing I'm just curious to know if you've translated that to economic indicators Because I'm relating it to climate finance, which is sort of avoided catastrophe What we're seeing is when children grow up in homes that doesn't have enough sunlight Not no natural ventilation. It does not matter what amazing after school programs They go to run by other social service organizations. We see that they're lagging Behind and sort of their opportunities and their aspirations going forward. What are the losses on that? So is that something that you have looked into and if you have I would totally love to steal all of that Calculation from you because we are a small social enterprise. So I've been looking for it And the second part I have another part to this it's related The community engagement piece And I'm so glad you said that that it's really about asking them the questions because I try to convince people and let them know that Participatory doesn't mean coming up with the idea and then convincing the community to buy into it, right? You come you have to come together to come up with the ideas But who funds that because somehow to expect a return on investment on that early stages of the project I think is very unfair So we kind of caught up in that because then is it the is it the you know pre-project development cost? But I see it even before Being before that right and it takes a lot of time and effort because at the end of the day Doesn't matter how many apps we have how many tools we have it's human to human connection I go into meetings for 10 minutes. It becomes A lunch and then a chive over three hours. So those are the two things 100% agree right? I mean, I think the amount of apps there and how overblown their ability to connect Is pretty remarkable to me. So I 100% agree with you. So to take the the the last one first though So through our catalyst initiative within united healthcare We actually do provide financing over each year over over three years It's not a big amount of money, but it it helps get people to the table because everyone's right everyone You can't like, you know, we all do sometimes like oh, it's just show up It's like, well, no, I've got 900 other things to do and I don't and I my budget's busted So I need you know and so so we we what we have found quite honestly is that even if you provide a fairly modest grant You know, I'm going to put it in a 50 to 200 thousand dollar range in the community You can actually achieve a lot and get a lot of engagement. It doesn't cost That you know, you don't need to spend a million dollars to do that and so So we have that's on again and that's on that that's not on our treasury investment side That's on our united healthcare side just to be clear But I think that's right and it also demonstrates a level of commitment to the To the community, right? And so it's it's not about the money, but the money doesn't hurt and helps You know what I mean it enables people to be able to To do that. Um, and then I think on your Other question, I think that'll probably be version 2.5 or something quite honestly about thinking about the economic Impact that said, I'd love to definitely follow up afterwards because what I would tell you though is that There's certain lot of certainly a lot of evidence that suggests that people who are how in stable housing Right have more opportunities for work and and gainful good employment people who are healthy Right the amount of the cost of health care from an economic perspective in terms of lost wages and other things Is enormous. So I think a number of the things that we are tracking our Indicators of but probably not exactly a proxy for