 We're now going to speak with some people who each have a very different relationship with meat, from wild farming to veganism to foraging. Robert Gooch, director of the Wild Meat Company in Suffolk. Fergus Drennan, Fergus the forager, who spent many years finding food in the wild. Il Ted Dunsford, co-founder of Cellular Agriculture Limited and Joey Carbstrom, a vegan and campaigner. Robert, if I could start with you, the Wild Meat Company, what are you doing in order to be an ethical supplier? Well, it's the most sustainable and carbon neutral way of eating meat, Mariela, already, because we are harvesting animals that are naturally already in the countryside and providing it so that people can eat that in a way that doesn't harm the environment. And you're a meat eater yourself, I presume, so what was your reasoning for the business? Well, there are sort of three reasons. One is the carbon thing, so the Wild Meat Company produces game species for eating, which are not farmed anyway, so they're naturally, they're wild anyway, so they can't be causing any damage or destruction through inputs. The second main reason is that they are often shot and culled because they're seen as pests, and for example deer, which are rapidly growing population in the countryside, and their natural predators have to be predated by man to avoid road traffic accidents and that sort of thing, and so they're there anyway, they're being culled and we must make good use of that meat, otherwise it would just be wasted. And the third reason is that a lot of people don't like the fact that farm animals travel a long way to go to a slaughterhouse and then have to go through the slaughterhouse experience to be killed before they are presented to consumers on the table, and that's a third reason why I set up the company and why many people come to wildmeat.co.uk to buy our meat. So what sort of meat are you talking about? So it's venison, deer, rabbits, pigeons, squirrels, pheasants, parches, wild duck, and those sorts of... But you must breed them, I mean, to some degree, or you're just living in a part of the countryside that's sort of where they run amok? No, I'm afraid most of the countryside is amok with deer, they're nocturnal so you don't often see them, but unfortunately for farmers, foresters, gardeners... Yes, but not rabbits, surely. Sorry? But not rabbits. Yes, rabbits are very common, they're nocturnal and they cause lots of damage, yeah. And one last question on this, I mean, it is much more expensive, isn't it, than supermarket meat? It is more expensive and that goes back to the question that the issue raised by David Aguilar is that, you know, we can afford sometimes to eat better quality carbon-neutral meat, whether it's free range, organic or wild meat, and that's obviously something that people who can afford to, for some reason, decide not to, so they'll spend thousands of pounds on a new car, or a big house, or a new holiday, but they'll buy the cheapest meat they can find in the supermarket, which is quite odd. I'm going to go to Joey Carbstrung. Joey, you did change your name, didn't you? I mean, that's not your real name. Last name's Armstrong. Ah, OK. But you're a vegan and former meat eater, so tell me why you made that decision? I'm a vegan because of four animal rights, mainly, so I couldn't sort of stomach the hypocrisy of claiming to care about animals while I had a piece of a cow on my plate. It just seemed like cutting up an animal into pieces and eating them was obviously cruel, no matter how they were treated. So I know there's a lot of talk about free range and organic in all of these things, but essentially, for me, it all comes to a head when the animal's in a slaughterhouse and being shot in the head and having their head cut off and disemboweled. I feel like that's an animal rights violation, and for me, veganism is about animal rights. The environment is talked about a little bit in veganism because there was a big study, there's a lot of studies coming out. There was one large one in Oxford University there in 2018, 40,000 farms, 119 countries, and it showed that a vegan diet is a single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth. And they're saying that a livestock provides only 18% of calories, but takes up 83% of farmland, and we could reduce the farmland on Earth by more than 75% if we all adopted a vegan diet. But for me, it's about animal rights. It's about the animals as sentient beings, they don't want to die. The nicer you treat an animal, the more they want to live, so to rob them of their life is inhumane. The hunter had interesting points. Hunting is probably more carbon neutral, but I would still say it's not practical for the entire population. I'd still say shooting an animal was needless and cruel, and we could also opt for something like maybe controlling their breeding through some type of contraceptive program instead of killing all these animals. So us try to opt for the plant-based alternatives, like getting people a practical solution that everyone can sort of join in on. You don't have to worry about expensive, free-range meat. You can get your beans and rice and legumes and fruits and vegetables. You can buy local fruits and vegetables if you want to. But this is something that people in suburban areas, low-income areas, can all achieve, and we can all make a massive impact like that. But Joey, just one last question on that. I mean, as a vegan, how much effort do you put into what you eat every day? Because a lot of people argue that it's just incredibly time consuming. Well, it's a little bit of work at the start. I mean, just like trying any new habit, you have to build a new habit. It might take two or three weeks. But because here in the UK, especially, you go to the plant milk aisle, you go to the plant cheese aisle, and you go to the fruits and veg section. And most people eat predominantly vegan food anyway. That is, they realize it's pastas and grains and legumes and bread and vegetables and fruits. So really, it's just eliminating certain foods. But then there might be a bit of label checking that you have to do if you're buying processed food at the start. And I probably recommend choosing more whole foods. But it's really, once you're motivated, I feel, once you see what happens in factory farms here in England, I mean, 95% of the broiler chickens here are in intensive indoor units. They want to call it red tractors. Red tractors is the minimum standard, really. Factory farming here is rife. Over 90% of the pigs are factory farmed, and they're all killed in gas chambers. The vast majority of pigs are killed in gas chambers and chickens in gas chambers. And you might see the cows and the lambs on the countryside all enjoying their time, but they all go to the slaughterhouse to be executed. No one gets to see images of slaughterhouses unless activists go in there and leave cameras and show it to the public. So all of this is hidden. So I think if you're motivated, it's a lot easier than if you weren't motivated by what goes on. Well, this is fascinating stuff, and I want you all to stay with me, please. We're just going to go quickly to the news headlines and then we'll be back. I want to hear, I've asked you, Joey, about how time consuming it is being a vegan. But I want to ask Freddie, the forager, the same question. So stick with us and we'll be back in a couple of minutes.