 Hello and welcome back to SuperCloud 2 where we examine the intersection of cloud and data in the 2020s, my name is Dave Vellante and our SuperCloud panel, our power panel is back. Maribel Lopez is the founder and principal analyst at Lopez Research, Sanjeev Mohan, is former Gartner analyst and principal at Sanjimo and Keith Townsend, is the CTO advisor. Folks, welcome back and thanks for your participation today, good to see you. Great to see you. Thanks. Let me start Maribel with you. Bob Muglia, we had a conversation as part of SuperCloud the other day and he said, Teva, you know, I like to work here, don't be, you got to simplify this a little bit. So he said, quote, a SuperCloud is a platform. He said, think of it as a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. And then Neilu Mihai said, well, wait a minute, this is just going to create more stovepipes. We need more standards and an architecture, which is kind of what Berkeley Sky Computing Initiative is all about. So there's a sort of a debate going on to SuperCloud and architecture, a platform, or maybe it's just another buzzword. Maribel, do you have a thought on this? Well, the easy answer would be to say it's just a buzzword and then we could just, you know, kill the conversation and be done with it. But I think the term, it's more than that, right? The term actually isn't new. You can go back to at least 2016 and find references to SuperCloud in Cornell University or assist in other documents. So having said this, I think we've been talking about SuperCloud for a while, so I assume it's more than just a fancy buzzword. But I think it really speaks of that undeniable trend of moving towards an abstraction layer to deal with the chaos of what we consider managing multiple public and private clouds today, right? So, you know, one definition of the technology platform speaks to a set of services that allows companies to build and run that technology smoothly without worrying about the underlying infrastructure, which really gets back to something that Bob said. And, you know, some of the questions is where that lives. You know, and you could call that an abstraction layer, you could call it cross cloud services, hybrid cloud management. So I see momentum there, like legitimate momentum with enterprise IT buyers that, you know, are trying to deal with the fact that they have multiple clouds now. So where I think we're moving is trying to define what are the specific attributes and frameworks of that that would make it so that it could be consistent across clouds, you know, what is that layer? And maybe that's what the SuperCloud is. But one of the things I struggle with with SuperCloud is, you know, what are we really trying to do here? Are we trying to create differentiated services in the SuperCloud layer? Is a SuperCloud just another variant of what, you know, AWS, GCP or others do? You know, you spoke in Walmart about its cloud native platform and that's an example of somebody deciding to do it themselves because they need to deal with this today and not wait for some big standards thing to happen. So whatever it is, you know, I do think it's something. I think it is, you know, we're trying to maybe create an architecture out of it would be a better way of saying it so that it does get to those set of principles, but it also needs to be edge aware. I think whenever we talk about SuperCloud, we're always talking about like the big centralized cloud. And I think we need to think about all the distributed clouds that we're looking at is in edge as well. So that might be one of the ways that SuperCloud evolves. So thank you, Mayor Bella Keith. You're Brian Graceley, Graceley's Law. Things kind of repeat themselves. We've seen it all before. And so this, what Muglia brought to the forefront is this idea of, you know, a platform where the platform provider is really responsible for the architecture. Of course, the drawback is then you get a bunch of stovepipe architectures. But practically speaking, that's kind of the way the industry has always evolved, right? So if we look at this from the practitioner's perspective and we talk about platforms, traditionally vendors have provided the platforms for us, whether it's a distribution of Linux managed by or provided by Red Hat, Windows, server.net, databases, Oracle, we think of those as platforms. Things that are fundamental we can build on top. SuperCloud isn't today that it is a framework or our idea kind of a visionary goal to get to a point that we can have a platform or a framework. But what we're seeing repeated throughout the industry in customers, whether it's the Walmart's that's kind of supersized the idea of SuperCloud or if it's regular end user organizations that are coming out with platform groups, groups who normalize a cloud native infrastructure, AWS, multi-cloud, VMware resources to look like one thing internally to their developers. We're seeing this trend that there's a desire for a platform that provides the capabilities of a SuperCloud. Thank you for that. Sanjeev, we often use Snowflake as a SuperCloud example and now would presumably be a platform with an architecture that's determined by the vendor. Maybe Databricks is pushing for a more open architecture. Maybe that more of that nirvana that we were talking about before to solve for SuperCloud. But regardless, the practitioner discussions show at least currently there's not a lot across cloud data sharing. I think it could be a killer use case, egress charges or a barrier, but how do you see it? Will that change? Will we hide that underlying complexity and start sharing data across cloud? Is that something that you think Snowflake or others will be able to achieve? So I think we are already starting to see some of that happen. Snowflake is definitely one example that gets cited a lot, but even, we don't talk about MongoDB in this light, but you could have a MongoDB cluster, for instance, with nodes sitting in different cloud providers. So there are companies that are starting to do it. The advantage that these companies have, let's take Snowflake as an example, is it's a centralized proprietary platform and they are building the capabilities that are needed for SuperCloud. So they're building things like, you can push down your data transformations. They have the entire security and privacy suite, data ops, they're adding those capabilities. And if I'm not mistaken, it'll be very soon, we will see them offer data observability. So it's all works great, as long as you are in one platform. And if you want resilience, then Snowflake, SuperCloud, great example. But if your primary goal is to choose the most cost-effective service, irrespective of which cloud it sits in, then things start falling sideways. For example, I may be a very big Snowflake user and I like Snowflake's resilience. I can move from one cloud to another cloud, like Snowflake does it for me. But what if I want to train a very large model, maybe Databricks is a better platform for that. So how do I do move my workload from one platform to another platform? That tooling does not exist. So we need serve a hybrid cross-cloud data ops platform. Walmart has done a great job, but they've built it by themselves. Not every company is Walmart. So we need some like Marieville and Keith said, we need standards, we need reference architectures, we need some sort of a cost control. I was just reading recently, Accenture has been public about their AWS bill. Every time they get the bill, it's tens of millions of lines, tens of millions, because they have over 1,000 teams using AWS. If we have not been able to corral a usage of a single cloud, now we're talking about super cloud, we've got multiple clouds and hybrid on-prem and edge. So till we've got some cross-platform tooling in place, I think this will still take quite some time for it to take shape. It's interesting, Marieville. Walmart would tell you that their on-prem infrastructure is cheaper to run than the stuff in the cloud, but at the same time, they want the flexibility and the resiliency of their three-legged stool model. So the point that Hatsanji was making about hybrid, it's an interesting balance, isn't it, between getting your lowest cost and at the same time having best of breed and scale? It's basically what you're trying to optimize for, as you said, right? And by the way, to the earlier point, not everybody is at Walmart's scale, so it's not actually cheaper for everybody to have the purchasing power to make the cloud cheaper to have it on-prem. But I think what you see almost every company, large or small, moving towards is this concept of like, where do I find the agility? And is the agility in building the infrastructure for me? And typically the thing that gives you outside advantage as an organization is not how you constructed your cloud computing infrastructure. It might be how you structured your data analytics as an example, which cloud is related to that, but how do you marry those two things? And getting back to sort of Sanji's point, we're in a real struggle now where, one hand we wanna have best of breed services, and on the other hand, we want it to be really easy to manage, secure, do data governance. And those two things are really at odds with each other right now. So if you want all the knobs and switches of a service like Geospatial Analytics and BigQuery, you're gonna have to use Google tools, right? Whereas if you want visibility across all the clouds for your application of state and understand the security and governance of that, you're kind of looking for something that's more cross-cloud tooling at that point. But whenever you talk to somebody about cross-cloud tooling, they look at you like, that's not really possible. So it's a very interesting time in the market. Now we're kind of layering this concept of super cloud on it. And some people think super cloud's about, basically multi-cloud tooling, and some people think it's about a whole new architectural stack. So we're just not there yet, but it's not all about cost. I mean, cloud has not been about cost for a very, very long time. Cloud has been about how do you really make the most of your data? And this gets back to cross-cloud services like Snuflake, you know, why did they even exist? They existed because we had data everywhere, but we need to treat data as a unified object so that we can analyze it and get insight from it. And so that's where some of the benefit of these cross-cloud services are moving today. Still a long way to go though, Dave. Hey, I reached out to my friends at ETR given the macro headwinds, and you're right, Maribel. Cloud hasn't really been about, just about cost savings, but I reached out to the ETR guys and asked them, how are customers, what's your data show in terms of how customers are dealing with the economic headwinds? And they said, by far their number one strategy to cut cost is consolidating redundant vendors. And a distant second, but still notable, was optimizing cloud costs. Maybe using reserve instances or using more volume buying. Nowhere in there. And I asked them to, could you go look and see if you can find it? Do we see repatriation? And you hear this a lot. You hear people whispering as analysts, you better look into that repatriation trend. It's pretty big. You can't find it. But some of the Walmart's in the world, maybe not repatriating, but they maybe have better cost structure on-prem. Keith, what are you seeing from the practitioners that you talked to in terms of how they're dealing with these headwinds? Yeah, I just got into a conversation about this just this morning with Enrico Signoretti, who is an analyst over at GigaOwn. He's reading the same headlines. Repatriation is happening at large scale. I think this is kind of, we have these quiet terms now. We have quiet quitting, we have quiet hiring. I think we have quiet repatriation. Most people haven't done away with their data centers. They're still there, whether they're completely on-premises data centers and they own assets or their partnerships with QTX, Equinix, et cetera. They have these private cloud resources. What I'm seeing practically is a rebalancing of workloads. Do I really need to pay AWS for this instance of SAP that's on 24 hours a day versus just having it on-prem, moving it back to my data center? I've talked to quite a few customers who were early on to moving their static SAP workloads onto the public cloud and they simply moved them back. Surprising, I was at VMware Explorer and we can talk about this a little bit later on, but there are customers net new, not a lot, that were born in the cloud and they get to this point where their workloads are static and they look at something like a Kubernetes or a OpenChip or VMware Tanzu and they ask the question, do I need the scalability of cloud? I might consider being a net new VMware customer to deliver this base capability. So are we seeing repatriation as the number one reason though I think internal IT operations are just naturally coming to this realization, hey, I have these resources on-premises, the private cloud technologies have moved far along enough that I can just simply move this workload back. I'm not calling it repatriation, I'm calling it right sizing for the operating model that I have. That makes sense. If I may say something, Dave, why we are on this topic of repatriation, I don't, I'm actually surprised that we are talking about repatriation as a very big thing. I think repatriation is happening, no doubt, but it's such a small percentage of cloud migration that to me it's a rounding error, in my opinion. I think there's a bigger problem. The problem is that people don't know where the cost is. If they knew where the cost was being wasted in the cloud, they could do something about it. But if you don't know, then the easy answer is cloud cost a lot, I'm moving it back to on-premises. Like capital one, as an example, they got rid of all the data centers. Where are they going to repatriate to? They're all in the cloud at this point. So I think my point is that data observability is one of the places that has seen a lot of traction is because of cost. Data observability, when it first came into existence, it was all about data quality. Then it was all about data pipeline reliability. And now the number one killer use case is FinOps. Maribel, you had a comment? Yeah, I'm kind of in violent agreement with both Sanjeev and Keith. So what do we see in here, right? So the first thing that we see is that many people wildly overspent in the big public cloud. They had stranded cloud credits, so to speak, right? The second thing is some of them still had infrastructure that was useful. So why not use it if you find the right workloads to what Keith was talking about. If they were more static workloads, if it was already there. So there is a balancing that's going on. And then I think fundamentally from a trend standpoint, you know, these things aren't binary, right? Everybody, for a while, everything was gonna go to the public cloud. And then people are like, oh, it's kind of expensive, right? Then they're like, oh no, they're gonna bring it all on-prem because it's really expensive. And it's like, well, that doesn't necessarily get me some of the new features and functionalities I might want for some of my new workloads. So, you know, I'm gonna put the workloads that have a certain set of characteristics that require a cloud in the cloud. And if I have enough capability on-prem and enough IT resources to manage certain things on-site, then I'm gonna do that there because that's a more cost-effective thing for me to do. It's not binary. That's why we went to hybrid. And then we went to multi just to describe the fact that people added multiple public clouds. And you know, now we're talking about super, right? So I don't look at it as a one-size-fits-all for any of this. You know, a number of practitioners leading up to SuperCloud too have told us that they're solving their cloud complexity by going in mono cloud. So they're putting on the blinders. Even though across the organization, there's other groups using other clouds. They're like, in my group, we use AWS or in my group, we use Azure. And those guys over there, they use Google. And, you know, we just kind of keep it separate. Are you guys hearing this in your view? Is that, you know, risky? Are they missing out on some potential to tap? Best of breed? What do you guys think about that? Everybody thinks they're mono cloud. Is anybody really mono cloud? It's like a group is mono cloud, right? This genie is out of the bottle. We're not putting the genie back in the bottle. You might think you're mono cloud and you go like three doors down and figure out that the guy or gal is on a fundamentally different cloud, running some analytics workload that you didn't know about. So, you know, to Sanjeev's earlier point, they don't even know where their cloud spend is. So I think the concept of mono cloud, how that's actually really realized by practitioners is primary and then secondary sources, right? So they have a primary cloud that they run most of their stuff on and that they try to optimize. And, you know, we still have forked workloads. You know, somebody decides, okay, you know, this SAP runs really well on this. So these analytics workloads run really well on that cloud and maybe that's how they parse it. But if you really looked at it, there's very few companies, if you really peeked under the hood and did an analysis that you could find an actual mono cloud structure. They just want to pull it back in and make it more manageable. And I respect that. You want to do what you can to try to streamline the complexity of that. Yeah, we're... Sorry, go ahead, Keith. Yeah, we're doing this thing where we review AWS servers every day, just, you know, in your inbox, get learning about a new AWS service personally. There's 238 AWS products just on the AWS cloud itself. Some of them are redundant, but you get the idea. So the concept of mono cloud, I'm in violent agreement with Maribel on this that yes, a group might say I want a primary cloud and that primary cloud may be the AWS. But have you tried to license Oracle database on AWS? It is really tempting to license Oracle on Oracle cloud, Microsoft on Microsoft. And I can't get RDS anywhere but Amazon. So while I'm driven to desire the simplicity, the reality is whether it's via M&A, licensing, data sovereignty, I am forced into a multi-cloud management style, but I do agree. Most people kind of do this one, this primary cloud, secondary cloud. And I guarantee you, you're going to have a third cloud or a fourth cloud, whether you want to or not, via shadow IT, latency, technical reasons, et cetera. Thank you, Sanjeev, you had a comment? Yeah, so I just wanted to mention, as an organization, I'm complete agreement, no organization is mono cloud, at least if it's a large organization, large organizations use all kinds of combinations of cloud providers. But when you talk about a single workload, that's where the problem arises. As Keith said, there are 238 services in AWS. How in the world am I going to be an expert in AWS but then say, let me bring GCP or Azure into a single workload? And that's where I think we probably will still see mono cloud as being predominant, because the team has developed its expertise on a particular cloud provider and they just don't have the time of the day to go learn yet another stack. However, there are some interesting things that are happening. For example, if you look at a multi cloud example where Oracle and Microsoft Azure have that interconnect, so that's a beautiful thing that they've done because now in the newest iteration, it's literally a few clicks and then behind the scene, your .NET application and your Oracle database in OCI will be configured. The identities in Active Directory are federated and you can just start using a database in one cloud which is OCI and application, your .NET in Azure. So till we see this kind of a solution coming out of the providers, I think it's unrealistic to expect the end users to be able to figure out multiple clouds. Well, I have to share with you. I can't remember if he said this on camera or was off camera, so I'll hold off. I won't tell you who it is, but this individual was sort of complaining a little bit saying with AWS, I can take their best AI tools like SageMaker and I can run them on my snowflake. He said, I can't do that in Google. Google forces me to go to BigQuery if I want their excellent AI tools. So he was sort of pushing, kind of tweaking a little bit some of the vendor talk that, oh yeah, we're so customer-focused not to pick on Google, but everybody will say that and then you say, well, if you're so customer-focused, why wouldn't you do ABC? So it's going to be interesting to see who leads that integration and how broadly it's applied. But I digress. Kate, at our first SuperCloud event that was on August 9th and it was only a few months after Broadcom announced the VMware acquisition. A lot of people, myself included, said, all right, cuts are coming. Generally, Tanzu is probably going to be under the radar, but it's SuperCloud 22 and presumably VMware Explorer, the company really, certainly US touted its Tanzu capabilities. I wasn't at VMware Explorer Europe, but I bet you heard similar things. Haktan has been blogging and very vocal about cross-cloud services and multi-cloud, which doesn't happen without Tanzu. So what did you hear, Keith, in Europe? What's your latest thinking on VMware's prospects in cross-cloud services slash SuperCloud? So I think our friend in a Cube alum post, Stu, the even more offended at this statement than he was, when I sat in the Cube, this was maybe five years ago, there's no company better suited to help industries or companies cross-cloud chasm than VMware. That's not a compliment. That's a reality of the industry. This is a very difficult, almost intractable problem. What I heard at VMware Europe were customers serious about this problem. Even more so than the US, data sovereignty is a real problem in the EU. Try being a company in Switzerland and having the Swiss data sovereignty issues, and there's no local cloud presence there, large enough to accommodate your data needs. They hit very serious questions about this. I've talked to open source project leaders. Open source project leaders were asking me, why should I use the public cloud to host Kubernetes-based workloads? My projects that are building around Kubernetes and the CNCF infrastructure, why should I use AWS, Google, or even Azure to host these projects when that's undifferentiated? I know how to run Kubernetes, so why not run it on premises? But they're dealing with the, I don't wanna deal with the hardware problems. So again, really great questions. And then there was always the specter of, the problem I think we all had with the acquisition of VMware by Broadcom potentially, $4.5 billion in increased profitability in three years is an unbelievable amount of money when you look at the size of the problem. So a lot of the conversation in Europe was about Keith, industry at large. How do we do what regulators are asking us to do in a practical way from a true technology sense? Is VMware cross cloud great? Yeah, so VMware obviously, to your point, OpenStack is another way, but it's actually OpenStack uptake is still alive and well, especially in those regions where there may not be a public cloud or there's public policy dictating that. Walmart's using OpenStack, so they're, as you know in IT, some things never die. Question for Sanjeev. And it relates to this new breed of data apps and Bob Muglia and Tristan Handy from DBT Labs who are participating in this program really got us thinking about this. You got data that resides in different clouds, even on-prem, and the machine pulls data from different systems. No humans involved, e-commerce, ERP, et cetera. It creates a plan, outcomes, no human involvement. Today, you're on a CRM system, you're inputting, you're doing forms, you're automating processes. We're talking about a new breed of apps. What are your thoughts on this? Is it real? Is it just way off in the distance? How does machine intelligence fit in? And how does super cloud fit? So, great point. In fact, the data apps that you're talking about, I call them data products. Data products first came into limelight in the last couple of years when Jamal Dhani started talking about data mesh. I am taking data products out of the data mesh concept because data mesh, whether data mesh happens or not, is analogous to data products. Data products basically are taking a product management view of bringing data from different sources based on what the consumer needs. We were talking earlier today about maybe it's my vacation rentals or it may be a retail data product. It may be an investment data product. So it's a prepackaged extraction of data from different sources, but now I have a product that has a whole lifecycle. I can version it. I have new features that get added and it's a very business data consumer centric. It uses machine learning. For instance, I may be able to tell whether this data product has stale data, who's using that data based on the usage of the data. I may have new data products that get allocated. I may even have the ability to take existing data products, mash them up into something that I need. So if I'm going to have that kind of power to create a data product, then having a common substrate underneath, it can be very useful. And that could be super cloud where I'm making API calls. I don't care where the ERP, the CRM, the survey data, the pricing engine, where they sit. For me, there's a logical abstraction and then I'm building my data product on top of that. So I see a new breed of products coming out, data products coming out. To answer your question, how early we are or is this even possible? My prediction is that in 2023, we will start seeing more of data products and then it'll take maybe two to three years for data products to become mainstream, but it's starting this year. They subprime mortgages were a data product, but definitely were humans involved. All right, let's talk about some of the super cloud, multi-cloud players and what their future looks like. You can kind of pick your favorites. VMware, Snowflake, Databricks, Red Hat, Cisco, Dell, HPE, Hashi, IBM, Cloudflare, there's many others, Cohesity, Rubrik. Keith, I wanted to start with Cloudflare because they actually use the term super cloud and just simplifying what they said, they look at it as taking serverless to the max. You write your code and then you can deploy it in seconds worldwide, of course, across the cloud for infrastructure. You know, you don't have to spin up containers, you don't have to provision instances, Cloudflare worries about all that infrastructure. What are your thoughts on Cloudflare, this approach and their chances to disrupt the current cloud landscape? You know, as Larry Ellison said famously, once before the network is the computer, right? Wait, I thought that was Scott McNeely. It wasn't Scott McNeely. I knew it was someone Oracle-aligned. Oracle owns that now, owns that line. By purpose or acquisition, it would be better. They should have just called it cloud. Yeah, they should have just called it cloud. It would be easier. But if you think about the Cloudflare capability, Cloudflare in its own right is becoming a decent-sized cloud provider. If you have compute out at the edge, when we talk about edge in the sense of Cloudflare and points of presence literally across the globe, you have all this SS compute, what do you do with it? First offering, let's disrupt data in the cloud. We can't start the conversation about talking about data. When they say, you know, we're gonna give you object-oriented or object storage in the cloud without egress charges, that's disruptive. That we can start to think about super cloud capability of having compute EC2 run in AWS, pushing and pulling data from Cloudflare. And now I've disrupted this Roche Motel data structure and that I'm freely given away bandwidth, basically. Well, the next layer is not that much more difficult. And I think part of Cloudflare's serverless approach or super cloud approaches so that they don't have to commit to a certain type of compute. It is advantageous. It is a feature for me to be able to go to EC2 and pick a memory heavy model or a compute heavy model or a network heavy model. Cloudflare has taken away those knobs and I'm just giving a code and allowing that to run. Cloudflare has a massive network. If I can put the code closest using the Cloudflare workers, if I can put that code closest to where the data is at or residing, super compelling observation. The question is, does it scale? I don't get the 238 services. While serverless is great, I have to know what I'm going to build. I don't have a Tognito or RDS or all these other services that make AWS, GCP and Azure appealing from a builder's perspective. So it is a very interesting nascent start and it's great because now they can hide compute. If they don't have the capacity, they can outsource that maybe at a cost to one of the other cloud providers but kind of hiding the compute behind the serverless architectures a really unique approach. Yeah, and they're dipping their toe in the water and they've announced an object store and a database platform and more to come. We got a wrap. So I wonder Sanjeevan and Maribel, if you could maybe pick some of your favorites from a competitive standpoint. Sanjeevan, I felt like just watching Snowflake, I said, okay, in my opinion, they had the right strategy, which was to run on all the clouds and then try to create that abstraction layer and data sharing across clouds. Even though, let's face it, most of it might be happening across regions if it's happening, but certainly outside of an individual account. But I felt like just observing them that anybody who's traditional on-prem player moving into the clouds or anybody who's a cloud native, it just makes total sense to write to the various clouds and to the extent that you can simplify that for users. It seems to be a logical strategy, maybe as I said before, what multi-cloud should have been, but are there companies that you're watching that you think are ahead in the game or ones that you think are a good model for the future? Yes, Snowflake definitely. In fact, one of the things we have not touched upon very much and Keith mentioned a little bit was data sovereignty. Data residency rules can require that certain data should be written into certain region of a certain cloud. And if my cloud provider can abstract that or my database provider, then that's perfect for me. So right now I see Snowflake is way ahead of this pack. I would not put MongoDB too far behind. They don't really talk about this thing. They are in a different space, but now they have a lake house and they've got all of these other SQL access and new capabilities that they're announcing. So I think they would be quite good with that. Oracle is always a dark horse. Oracle seems to have revived its cloud module to some extent and it's doing some interesting stuff. Databricks is another one. I have not seen Databricks. They've been very focused on lake house, unity, data catalog and some of those pieces, but they would be the obvious challenger. And if they come into this space of a super cloud, then they may bring some open source technologies that others can rely on like Delta Lake as a table format. Yeah, and if I'm one of these infrastructure players, Dell, HPE, Cisco, even IBM, I mean, I would be making my infrastructure as programmable and cloud friendly as possible. That seems like table stakes, but Maribel, any companies that stand out to you that we should be paying attention to? Well, we already mentioned a bunch of them, so maybe I'll go a slightly different route. I'm watching two companies pretty closely to see what kind of traction they get in their established companies. One we already talked about, which is VMware. And the thing that's interesting about VMware is they're everywhere. And they also have the benefit of having a foot in both camps. If you wanna do it the old way, the way you've always done it with VMware, they got all that going on. If you wanna try to do a more cross cloud, multi-cloud, cloud native style thing, they're really trying to build tools for that. So I think they have really good access to buyers and that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in them to see how they progress. The other thing I think could be a sleeping horse oddly enough is Google Cloud. They've spent a lot of work and time on Anthos. They really need to create a certain set of differentiators. Well, it's not necessarily in their best interest to be the best multi-cloud player. If they decide that they wanna differentiate on a different layer of the stack, let's say they wanna be like the person that is really transformative. They talk about transformation cloud with analytics workloads that maybe they do spend a good deal of time trying to help people abstract all of the other underlying infrastructure and make sure that they get the sexiest, most meaningful workloads into their cloud. So those are two people that you might not have expected me to go with but I think it's interesting to see not just on the things that might be considered either startups or more established independent companies but how some of the traditional providers are trying to reinvent themselves as well. I'm glad you brought that up because if you think about what Google's done with Kubernetes, I mean, would Google even be relevant in the cloud without Kubernetes? You could argue both sides of that but it was quite a gift to the industry and there's a motivation there to do something unique and different from maybe the other cloud providers. You know, I throw in Red Hat as well. They're obviously a key player in Kubernetes and HashiCorp seems to be becoming the standard for application deployment and Terraform across clouds and there are many, many others. You know, I know we're leaving lots out but we're out of time. Folks, I got to thank you so much for your insights and your participation in SuperCloud 2. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier in the entire CUBE community. Keep it right there for more content from SuperCloud 2.