 Hello everyone, and welcome back to Motor City, Michigan. We're live from theCUBE and my name is Savannah Peterson. Join this afternoon with my co-host, John Furrier. John, how you doing? Doing great. This next segment is going to be awesome about application modernization, scaling clusters. This is what's going to power the next generation software revolution. It's going to be fun. You know, it's kind of been a theme of our day today is scale, and when we think about the complex orchestration platform that is Kubernetes, everyone wants to scale faster, quicker, more efficiently, and our guests are here to tell us all about that. Please welcome Tushar and Andy. Thank you so much for being here with us. You were on the Red Hat OpenShift team, yeah? I suspect most of our audience is familiar, but just in case, let's give them a quick one-liner pitch so everyone's on the same page. Tell us about OpenShift. I'll take that one. OpenShift is our Kubernetes platform. It's our Kubernetes distribution. You can consume it as a self-managed platform, or you can consume it as a managed service on public clouds, and so we just call it all OpenShift. So it's basically Kubernetes, but with a CNCF ecosystem around it to make things more easier, so maybe there's two lines. So what does being at KubeCon mean for you? How does it feel to be here? What's your initial takes, exciting? I'm having a fantastic time. I haven't been to a KubeCon since San Diego, so it's great to be back in person and see old friends, make new friends, have hallway conversations. It's great as an engineer trying to work in this ecosystem, just being able to be in the same place with these folks. And you got to ask, before we came on camera, you're like, this is my sixth KubeCon. We were like, we're a seven, you know, but that's a lot of KubeCons. It is, yes. So what, take that through where we are now, compare and contrast your first KubeCon, just scope it out. What's the magnitude of change if you had to put a pin on that, because there's a lot of new people coming in. They might not have seen where it's come from. And how we got here is maybe not how we're going to get to the next level. I've seen it grow tremendously since the first one I went to, which I think was Austin several years ago. And what's great is seeing lots of new people interested in contributing and also seeing end users who are trying to figure out the best way to take advantage of this great ecosystem that we have. Awesome. And the project management side, you got the keys to the kingdom with Red Hat OpenShift, which has been successful. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. Thank you for that grow. I'm really positioned right on the wave. It's going great. What's the update on the product? Kind of in a good position right now. Yeah. No, we're feeling good about it. It's all about our customers, obviously. The fact that we have thousands of customers using OpenShift as their cloud native platform or the container platform, we're very excited. The great thing about them is that, I mean, you can go to like OpenShift Commons is kind of a user group that we run on the first day. They come Tuesday, we run. I mean, you should see the number of just case studies that our customers went through there, you know? And it is fantastic to see that. I mean, it's across so many different industries, across so many different use cases, which is very exciting. One of the things we've been reporting here in the queue obviously in before, but here more important is just that, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the IT department and developers, they're not a department to serve the business. They are the business. That means that the developers are deciding things and running the business through their code. Yeah. Okay, if that takes place, you would have scale. And we also said on ManyCube, certainly at Red Hat Summit and other ones, the clouds are distributed to computer. It's distributed to computing. So you guys are focusing on this project, Andy, that you're working on, KCP. Yes. Which is, I won't, platform, Kubernetes platform. For control planes. Control planes. Take us through what's the focus on. Why is that important? And why does that relate to the mission of developers being in charge and large scale? Sure. So a lot of times when people are interested in developing on Kubernetes, running workloads, they need a cluster, of course. And those are not cheap. It takes time. It takes money. It takes resources to get them. And so we're trying to make that faster and easier for end users and everybody involved. So with KCP, we've been able to take what looks like one normal Kubernetes and partition it. And so everybody gets a slice of it. You're an administrator in your little slice and you don't have to ask for permission to install new APIs and they don't conflict with anybody else's APIs. So we're really just trying to make it super fast and make it super flexible so everybody is their own admin. So the developer basically looks at it as a resource blob. They can do whatever they want, but it's shared and provisioned with one ops. It's like they have their own cluster, but you don't have to go through the process of actually provisioning a full cluster. And what's the alternative? What's the benefit? And what was the alternative to this? So the alternative, you spin up a full cluster, which maybe that's three control plane nodes. You've got multiple workers. You've got a bunch of virtual machines or bare metal. Or maybe you take it- How much time does that take? Just ballpark it. Anywhere from five minutes to an hour. You can use cloud services, GKE, EKS, and so on. You're banging away, you're configuring. And those are faster. But it's still like you still have to wait for that to happen. And it costs money to do all of that too. Absolutely, and it's complex. Why do something that's been done if there's a tool that can get you a couple of steps down the path, which makes a ton of sense. Something that we think a lot when we're talking about scale. You mentioned earlier to Shar when we were chatting before the cams were live. Scale means a lot of different things. Can you dig in there a little bit? Yeah, I mean, so when we talk about scale, we're talking about, from a user perspective, we are talking about, you know, there are more users. There are more applications. There are more workloads. There are more services being run on Kubernetes now, right? So an open shift. So that's one dimension of the scale. The other dimension of the scale is, how do you manage all the underlying infrastructure? The clusters, the namespaces, and all the observability data, et cetera. So that's at least two levels of scale. And then obviously there's a third level of scale, which is, you know, there is scale across, not just different clouds, but also from cloud to the edge. So there is that dimension of scale. So there are several dimensions of this scale. And the one that, again, we are focused on here really is about, you know, the first one that I talked about is a user, and I say user, it could be a developer, it could be an application architect, or it could be an application owner who wants to develop Kubernetes applications for Kubernetes, and wants to publish those APIs, if you will, and make it discoverable, and then somebody consumes it. So that's the scale we are talking about here. What are some of the enterprise, you guys have a lot of customers, we've talked to you guys before, many, many times on other subjects. Red Hat, I mean, you guys have all the customers. Enterprise, they've been there, done that, and you know, they're savvy, but the cloud is a whole nother ball game. What are they thinking about? What's the psychology of the customer right now? Because now they have a lot of choices, okay, we get it, we're going to replat from refactor apps, we'll keep some legacy on-premises for whatever reason, but cloud pretty much is going to be the game. What's the mindset right now of the customer base? Where are they in their, the psychology, not the executive, but more of the operators or the developers? Yeah, so I mean, first of all, different customers are at different levels of maturity, I would say, and they're all on a journey, how I like to describe it. And in this journey, I mean, I see a customers who are really tip of the spear, they have containerized everything, they're cloud native, they use best of tools, I mean, complete automation, quick deployment of applications and lifecycle of applications, et cetera. So that's kind of one end of the spectrum. We advance then. They advance, you know, and I don't have any specific numbers here, but I'd say there are quite a few of them and we see that. And then there is kind of the middle who are, I would say, who are familiar with containers, they know what app modernization, what a cloud native application means, they might have tried a few, so they are in the journey, they are kind of, they want to get there, they have some other kind of other issues, organizational or talent and so on and so forth, kinds of issues to get there. And then there are definitely the quote of what I would call the laggard still, and there's a lot of them. But I think, you know, COVID has certainly accelerated a lot of that, I hear that and there is definitely, you know, more, the psychology is definitely more towards what I would say public cloud. But I think where we are early, also in the other trend that I see is kind of, okay, public cloud, great, right? So people are going there, but then there is the so-called edge also. That is for various regions, you've got to have a kind of a regional presence, a edge presence and that's kind of the next kind of thing taking off here and we can talk more about it. Let's talk about that a little bit because as you know, as we know, we're very excited about edge here at theCUBE. What types of trends are you seeing as that space emerges a little bit more firmly? Yeah, so, I mean, so when we talk about edge, you're talking about, you could talk about edge as a retail, I mean, locations, right? There could be so many things, edges everywhere. Everywhere, right? It's all around us, quite literally. Exactly, it's in space, too. I mean, in fact, you mentioned space, I was going to kind of end it with that. I love space, I love this world. We have actually Kubernetes and OpenShift running in space, believe it or not, you know? So that's the edge, right? So we have industrial edge, we have telco edge, we have 5G, then we have automotive edge now and retail edge and more, right? So in space, you know, so it's very exciting there. So the reason I, tying back to that question that you asked earlier is that, that's where customers are. Cloud is one thing, but now they've got to also think about how do I, whatever I do in the cloud, how do I bring it to the edge? Because that's where my end users are, my customers are and my data is, right? So that's the- And I think Kubernetes has brought that attention to the laggards. We had the Lockheed Martin on yesterday, which is an incredible, real example of Kubernetes at the edge. It's just an incredible story. We covered it, also wrote a story about it. So compelling, because it makes it real. And Kubernetes is real. So then the question is, developer productivity. Okay, things are starting to settle in. We've got KCP, scaling clusters, things are happening. What about the tool chains and how do I develop? Now I got scale of development, more code coming in. And we're speculating that in the future, there's so much code in open source that no one has to write code anymore. At some point, it's like this gluing things together. So the developers need to be productive. How are we going to scale the developer equation and eliminate the complexity of tool chains and environments? WebAssembly super hyped up at this show. I don't know why, but sounds good. No one can tell me why, but I can kind of connect the dots, but this is a big thing. Yeah, and it's fitting that you ask about no code. So we've been working with our friends at Crossplane and have integrated with KCP the ability to no code, take a whole bunch of configuration and say, I want a database. I want to be a provider of databases. I'm in an IT department, there's a bunch of developers. They don't want to have to write code to create databases. So I can just take my configuration and make it available to them and through some super cool, new, easy to use tools that we have, as a developer, you can just say, please give me a database and you don't have to write any code. I don't have to write any code to maintain that database. I'm actually using community tooling out there to get that spun up. So there's a lot of opportunities out there. So that's easy of use, Chuck. What about a large enterprise that's got multiple tool chains and you start having security issues? Is that disrupt the tool chain capability? Like there's always now weird examples emerging, not weird, but like real plumbing challenges. How do you guys see that evolving with Red Hat? Yeah, I mean talking about that, right? The software, secure software supply chain is a huge concern for everyone after especially some of the things that have happened in the past few years. Massive team here at the show and just within the community. We're all a little more aware, I think, even than we were before. Exactly, before, yeah. And I think the, so to step back, I mean, from, so it's not just even about, you know, runtime vulnerability scanning. That's important, but that's not enough, right? So we are talking about, okay, how did that container or how did that workload get there? What is that workload? What's the provenance of this workload? How did it get created? What is in it, you know? And what are, how do I make sure that there are no unsafe attack vectors there? And so that's the software supply chain and where Red Hat is very heavily invested in. As you know, with REL, we kind of have roots in secure operating system. And REL, one of the reasons why REL, which is the foundation of everything we do at Red Hat, is because of security. So an open shift has always been secured out of the box with things like SCC rollback access control, which we added very early in the product. And now if you kind of bring that forward, you know, now we are talking about the complete software supply chain security. And this is really about how from the moment the developer writes code and checks it into a Git repository, from there on, how do you build it? How do you secure it at each step of the process? How do you sign it? And we are investing and contributing to the community with things like Cosine and Six Store, which is a Six Store project. And so that secures the supply chain and then you can use things like Argo CD. And then finally we can do it, deploy it onto the cluster itself. And then we have things like ACS, which can do vulnerability scanning, which is a container security platform. I want to thank you guys for coming on. I know Savannah's probably got a last question, but my last question is, did you guys each take a minute to answer why has Kubernetes been so successful today? What was the magic of Kubernetes that made it successful? Was it because no one forced it? Was it lightweight? Was it good timing? Right place at the right time? Community, what's the main reason that Kubernetes is enabling all this shift and goodness that's coming together kind of de facto, unifies people, the stacks, almost a middleware market is coming around again, I have to use that term, middleware. But it feels like it's just about to explode. Why is it so successful? I think, I mean, the shortest answer I can give you there really is, as you heard the term, I think Satya Nadella from Microsoft has used it. I don't know if he was the original person who coined it, but every company wants to be a software company or is a software company now. And that means that they want to develop stuff fast. They want to develop stuff at scale and develop in a cloud native way, right? With the cloud. So that's, and Kubernetes came at the right time to address the cloud problem, especially across not just one public cloud or two public clouds, but across a whole bunch of public clouds and infrastructure and what we call the hybrid clouds. I think the Kubernetes is really exploded because of hybrid cloud, the need for hybrid cloud in my opinion. What's your take on the magic of Kubernetes? What made it, what's making it so successful? I would agree also that it came about at the right time, but I would add that it has great extensibility and as developers, we take advantage of that every single day. And I think that the patterns that we use for developing are very consistent. And I think that consistency that came with Kubernetes, just you have so many people who are familiar with it. And so they can follow the same patterns, implement things similarly, and it's just a good fit for the way that we want to get our software out there and have things operate. Keep it simple, stupid, almost, is that acronym, but the consistency and the de facto alignment behind it just created a community. So then the question is, are the developers now setting the standards? That seems like that's the new way, right? I mean, I'd like to think so. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, hybrid, you're touching everything at scale and you also have mini shift as well, right? Which is taking a super macro. Micro shift. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. It is a micro shift. That is fantastic. There isn't a base you don't cover. You've spoken a lot about community in both of you have and serving the community as well as your engagement with them. From, I mean, given that you're both leaders, stepping back, how community first is Red Hat and OpenShift as an organization when it comes to building the next products and developing? I'll take, and then I'm sure Andy is actually the community, so I'm sure he'll want to add a lot of it. But I mean, right from the start we have roots in open source. I'll keep it, you know, and certainly with Kubernetes, we were one of the original contributors to Kubernetes other than Google. So in some ways, we think about as co-creators of Kubernetes. And since then, we have added a lot of things in conjunction with it. I talked about like SCC for secure, which has become part security right now, which the community, we added things like our back and other, what we thought were enterprise features needed because we actually wanted to build a product out of it and sell it to customers who are our customers for enterprises. So we have worked with the community. Sometimes we have been ahead of the community and we have convinced the community. Sometimes the community has been ahead of us for other reasons. So it's been a great collaboration which is I think the right thing to do. But Andy, as I said in the community. Well said to Shar, well said. Yes, I agree with all of that. I spend most of my days thinking about how to interact with the community and engage with them. So the work that we're doing on KCP, we want it to be a community project and we want to involve as many people as we can. So it is a heavy focus for me and my team and yeah, we do it all the time. How's it going? How's the project going? Do you feel good about it? I do. It is, it started as an experiment set of prototypes and has grown leaps and bounds from its roots and it's fantastic. Control planes are hot, data planes, control planes. And I love it. Making things work together, horizontally scalable. It sounds like cloud native. Yeah, I mean, just to add to it, there are a couple of talks that on KCP at KubeCon that our colleague, Stefan Skimanski, has done and I would urge people who are listening if they have just Google it, if you will, and you'll get them and those are really awesome talks to get more about it. Oh yeah, and you can tell on GitHub that KCP really is a community project and how many people are participating. It's always fun to watch the action live. To Shar, Andy, thank you so much for being here with us. John, wonderful questions this afternoon and thank all of you for tuning in and listening to us here on the Kube Live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson. Look forward to seeing you again very soon.