 President of the United States Institute of Peace, and I'm really delighted to welcome everybody here today. There is an overflow room. You're welcome to stand, but I think this is a strong validation of the importance of this conversation. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. I think everyone is aware that U.S. Institute of Peace is a nonpartisan, independent, national institution that was founded by Congress about 30 years ago, dedicated to the proposition that peace is very practical, it's very possible, and it's essential for our national and global security. And so we are delighted to be having this conversation here today with so many of you. Nigeria is one of our priorities, and so my thanks to everybody for joining us. I want to extend a warm welcome to the many experts, the many dignitaries, the many distinguished colleagues who are with us in the room today, especially our partners from the State Department, from State CSO, from the Nigerian Embassy. Special welcome to Undersecretary for Political Affairs Ambassador Tom Shannon. We have Acting Assistant Administrator of Africa Ambassador Dan Yamamoto, Deputy Chief of the Nigerian Mission, Ambassador Hassan, Mohammed Hassan, and we also have our good partner from CSO, Deputy Assistant Secretary Neil Kringle. A special warm shout out to my friend, Dr. Obey Ezekwizili, Dr. Ezekwizili has a long list of accomplishments and was also one of the prime movers behind making, bring back our girls a viral international campaign, so welcome. And a big special welcome to all the members of our Nigeria Senior Working Group. This is a group of extraordinarily influential and committed civic and religious Nigerian leaders who are here with us today. I think we have 10 of them, so I won't introduce each of them individually. You'll have a chance to hear from them and about them through the course of the day. USIP is honored to be working with them as they really seek a lasting resolution to violent conflicts in their country. And one of their current areas of focus right now is advising Nigerian government officials on how to address the root causes of the Boko Haram insurgency, other sources of unrest in Nigeria, and helping to identify approaches to really building a lasting peace. And as Dr. Bugajay told me earlier this morning, if we don't have time for peace, what do we have time for? So with that ringing in our ears, this conference is very much a part of USIP's efforts to support influential leaders and policymakers as they develop a more inclusive action agenda to prevent violent conflict and to provide stability, particularly in the northeast. And the Nigerian Senior Working Group is in Washington here to meet with US policymakers, build on the earlier discussions that the Senior Working Group has had with Nigerian public officials, and especially the governors of Nigeria's northern states. So it is their hope, and it's mine, and I know everybody's, that these efforts will produce more inclusive policies that we all believe are critical to help prevent further violent conflict and resolve the conflict that currently exists. We've seen that President Buhari has really made some important and heartening efforts in the fight against Boko Haram, and we know that it's not over yet, and that the stability of both Nigeria and the entire Lake Chad basin depends on getting fully at the roots of that insurgency. And in the meantime, the many years of conflict have led to widespread displacement. We still have a very serious humanitarian emergency, and the need urgently for progress on reconstruction and for reconciliation in the communities, especially that have been affected. So today is an opportunity to really look at what are the concrete steps that Nigeria can take to build and sustain peace in what is Africa's demographic and economic giant. And very importantly, what should the United States do? What are the policies and approaches that we can take to support those efforts? So we're very fortunate to help kick off this conversation to have with us the Under Secretary for Political Affairs Ambassador Tom Shannon. Ambassador Shannon has had a long career with the State Department. He's served all over the world. Many of you have known him from a very distinguished career in Latin America. He also has had a number of posts in Africa, including South Africa, Cameroon, Gabon, spent a lot of his time focusing on these efforts. And Ambassador Shannon was just with us last month. He joined us for a summit on Africa, and his commitment to and focus on these issues I think serves us well and is really an important testimony to the importance of Africa and the importance of Nigeria to the United States government. So thank you so much for joining us again. We're going to think of something for you next month. And please join me in welcoming Under Secretary Shannon. Good morning, and it's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you, Nancy, President Lindborg, for your very kind introduction. And I'm very grateful to you. I'm grateful to Ambassador Carson for this invitation to participate in this important symposium on Africa. I also had the pleasure when I came in today to see Ambassador Princeton Lyman. I worked with Ambassador Lyman in South Africa from 1992 to—I was in there until 96. I think you were gone in 95 after you'd done all the heavy lifting. But our Africa Bureau produces incredible diplomats. We have one in Don Yamamoto here today. And it's a bureau that really works at what I consider to be the cutting edge of American diplomacy and working in a part of the world that is in a remarkable and profound state of transition and has enormous lessons in terms of peace-building, peacekeeping, conflict resolution, building economies, and globalization, which are incredibly important for all of us. And some of us are going to have to relearn these lessons. And so our engagement in Africa is a very, very important part of that, so it's a real pleasure to be here at this symposium and focusing on, as Nancy noted, Africa's most important country. And of course, to be here at the Institute of Peace across the street from the Department of State is a real pleasure. And to be at a place where USIP is able to bring together people like yourselves, key policy makers, key opinion makers, people with a deep interest in this instance in Nigeria and Africa. So, and to address some of the region's most pressing issues, we're very, very happy to be here. And as Nancy noted, I was here two weeks ago to discuss the Burgeoning U.S.-African Partnership, and I'm grateful for this opportunity to join you to talk about Nigeria. I too want to acknowledge the work of the Senior Working Group. This distinguished cohort of Nigerian civic leaders, and I want to thank you for your tremendous efforts and commitment as peace builders. You work to diffuse conflicts over a range of issues from elections to land use, and your work inspires all of us, and we're going to learn a lot today. You know, when Nigeria's Northern Governors came to this institution in late 2016, the clear consensus was that addressing the war and poverty plaguing Northeast Nigeria required robust initiatives for education, reconciliation, and political inclusion. And I'm pleased the working group here today is bringing together many collective years of experience as spiritual leaders, military commanders, journalists, election officials, human rights advocates, and educators to develop strategies to address these enduring challenges, and the United States is proud to be your partner in these vital efforts. The U.S.-Nigeria partnership is rooted in the deep connections between our people. It is also rooted in our shared interests in promoting mutually beneficial trade and investment, combating the scourge of terrorism, and responding to Nigeria's development and governance challenges. These priorities are being addressed every day through our robust bilateral partnership. As President Trump underscored during his recent working lunch with African leaders in New York during the U.N. General Assembly, we cannot have economic prosperity without peace, and we cannot have sustained peace without good governance. On the economic front, Nigeria stands apart. It is Sub-Saharan Africa's largest economy, and the United States' second largest bilateral trading partner in Sub-Saharan Africa. Nigeria's vibrant and dynamic economy, full of innovation, and entrepreneurship has driven its economic growth. According to Global Entrepreneurship Watch, 35 percent of Nigerians are involved in some kind of entrepreneurial activity. However, Nigeria could unleash its potential further by pursuing growth through market-based policies and not state-centered ones. A market-based approach that minimizes barriers between buyers and sellers will encourage additional investment in trade and lighten the regulatory load on its budding entrepreneurs and investors. A related issue to increased economic growth and investment that should remain front and center is Nigeria's youth bulge. That's a good kind of bulge. Nigeria is expected to become the third most populous country in the world by 2050. It will be essential that we consider the voice of Nigeria's youth to ensure that leadership and commitment—to ensure their leadership and commitment tomorrow. We support this engagement through the Young African Leaders Initiative, or YALI, and through the hundreds of Nigerian students at institutions of higher learning in the United States. On the political front, Nigeria is a recognized leader across the continent. Within West Africa, we are grateful for Nigeria's leadership in the economic community of West African states, or ECOWAS, and particularly during the political transition in the Gambia in December of 2016. We are also grateful for its robust peacekeeping presence on the continent from the DRC to Mali. Nigeria's peaceful, transparent elections in March 2015 showed the rest of Africa and the world that a complex, diverse society could conduct peaceful, democratic transitions of leadership. Many of you here today played an important role during that period. As the country heads into state elections and into 2019 national elections, the United States is ready and willing to offer our technical assistance as we have in the past. On security issues, Africa is an important leader and partner in the Lake Chad Basin, collaborating with its neighbors to defeat the scourge of Boko Haram and ISIS West Africa. The United States supports this and other efforts to bring security and stability to citizens affected by violence. At the United Nations last week, the U.S. government announced $55 million in additional humanitarian assistance for the Lake Chad region, bringing the total to almost $700 million over the past two years. While humanitarian support is an immediate necessity, it cannot be a long-term solution. My meeting with the Nigerian Foreign Minister last week during UNGA was a great opportunity to learn more about what else the Nigerian government is trying to accomplish on the security front. It is clear to me that Nigeria is well aware that the fight against terrorism will be won not only by the military's conduct on the battlefield, but also by its conduct off the field. Nigeria understands that human rights abuses and impunity tarnish its international reputation and undermine the trust of its citizens, impede counter-terrorism efforts, and ultimately hinder our ability to fully partner with Nigeria. A military response alone will not lead to sustained peace in the Northeast. A holistic response is required, one that sets the conditions for the safe return of refugees and displaced persons, one where the Nigerian government works with civic leaders like we have here today to create the social and political infrastructure necessary for lasting peace. So I want to thank you again, Nancy, for this opportunity to be here this morning and to our working group for your dedication and determination to create a more peaceful and prosperous Nigeria and all of you for your patience. Thank you very much. Thank you very, very much for your patience. I'm going to also ask everyone to turn off their cell phones or at least turn them down through most of the morning and put them on vibrate. I want to now take this opportunity to ask the senior diplomatic representative of the Nigerian government, Ambassador Mohammed Hassan, to come forward to make some introductory remarks on behalf of the Nigerian government. We're extraordinarily pleased to have Ambassador Hassan with us for the first time at the United States Institute of Peace. He is a new member of the diplomatic corps in Washington, D.C., only having arrived less than a month ago from his previous post where he was the deputy chief of mission at the Nigerian embassy in London. All of us are familiar with his predecessor, who was well known to us, Ambassador Adifuye, who passed away suddenly of a heart attack some time ago. We are pleased to have Ambassador Mohammed Hassan here to represent the Nigerian government and I'd like to ask him to make a few remarks on behalf of his government, Ambassador Hassan. Thank you, Ambassador Hassan. Ladies and gentlemen, I am highly delighted to speak about peace in Nigeria. The gathering here today is to discuss peace in Nigeria and peace in Nigeria is synonymous to peace in Africa. I'm indeed honored to be here to give you a very short address to this gathering of eminent personalities, diplomas, and opinion-molders. I'm particularly happy to be here in this very beautiful building housing the United States Institute of Peace where peace is being discussed and peace is being built, not only for Nigeria but from what I saw at the book show outside, we're discussing peace in the whole world. So this is something very commendable. I want to seize this opportunity to thank UCIP for getting together officials of UCIP, experts all over the United States and officials of the United States Department of State, and very distinguished Nigerians that are equally opinion leaders and leaders of their societies, respective societies, to come here to discuss peace in Nigeria. We in Nigeria need peace more than any other time in our history. The scourge of Boko Haram, Katorosilas, kidnappings, and sundry crimes has depreciated and has impacted on the performance of the economy, the military, and the society as a whole. I believe this is an apt moment. This is a moment we very much cherish, and it's not this moment but it is a continuation of what happened with the governance of northern states of Nigeria when they came here last year for discussions. This is a follow-up, and I feel we should discuss incisively, precisely, and to the point. We are all here gathered to provide solutions to Nigeria's problems and not to create problems on problems. I thank the officials of the United States Institute of Peace for getting together this distinguished gathering and which is focused on peace in Nigeria. I thank you very much for listening and good luck on our deliberations. Thank you. Ambassador Hassan, thank you very, very much for those remarks. I have the great honor and pleasure of introducing our third speaker this morning, General Martin Luther Aguay, the former chief of staff of the Nigerian Defense Forces. But before I formally introduce General Aguay and turn the podium over to him, I would like to say a few words about the Nigerian senior working group that he will be speaking for this morning. The senior working group grew out of USIP's ongoing engagement with Nigeria's northern, largely Muslim governors, and is comprised of some 11 widely respected and influential Nigerian academic, civic, business, and religious leaders from across the country, not just the north, but from across the country who were working in partnership with the United States Institute of Peace to find sustainable and lasting solutions to the violent conflicts that continue to destroy lives and slow Nigeria's economic and social progress. Biographies of all of the members of the working group are contained in the programs that you received before coming into this room. And most of the members of the working group will be participating in the two panels and luncheon discussions that will follow this morning. Members of the senior working group and USIP share a common view that long-term peace, security, and stability can only be achieved by addressing the root causes of conflict. Military solutions alone are inadequate. People-centered approaches that address the drivers of conflict must also be central in finding lasting solutions to those conflicts. In the stature and broad experience of its members, the senior working group is in an ideal position to provide strategic advice to state and federal officials in Nigeria and to foster critical thinking and advocate holistic solutions to the most pressing challenges facing their country. They're also, as we hope today will demonstrate, that they're also in an ideal position to share useful ideas with American officials in the executive branch, in the Congress, and in the NGO community that is concerned about Nigeria. Since its formation, the senior working group has reached out successfully to the northern Nigerian governors to help develop strategies that will promote peace and to deal with some of the growing humanitarian problems across the northeastern region. In July, the senior working group met with the 19 members of the Northern Governors Association to develop specific policies that will help reduce regional ethnic tensions and promote national unity. And the members of the working group will continue to work with the governors to help identify and address the root causes of the Boko Haram insurgency and other unrest in Nigeria, including the deadly clashes between herders and farmers in the middle belt. The working group has great potential for providing much needed strategic and policy advice, expertise and understanding, and feedback to government leaders as they deal with the country's regional security challenges. It is now my great pleasure to introduce retired General Martin Luther Aguai. General Aguai is one of Nigeria's most respected, revered and decorated officers. And since leaving the Nigerian military over a decade ago, he has provided outstanding service to the United Nations. General Aguai has held the two top positions in Nigeria's military, chief of the defense staff and also before that chief of the army staff. After retiring from the Nigerian military, General Aguai served as the first United Nations commander of the hybrid peacekeeping force in Darfur, a force comprised of both United Nations and AU troops. He has also held senior positions as a military advisor to the United Nations in New York. General Aguai, welcome back to Washington. He knows this town extraordinarily well. He is a distinguished graduate of the National War College at Fort McNair, just down the street. And he is a frequent contributor to the work of the Africa Center for Strategic Studies at the National Defense University. General Aguai, welcome. Ambassadors, your excellencies, distinguished ladies and gentlemen, it's sometimes difficult for simple soldiers like me, old soldiers like me, to stand and talk to learned people across the country in different parts of the world about what we are doing. But it's a great pleasure to be here. I want to thank the Institute of Peace for giving us this opportunity to meet with this wonderful group of distinguished ladies and gentlemen to talk about Nigeria. And knowing that the world has become a global village, it will be good for others to also know a little bit about us, and so that together we can work to find a long-term solution to our challenges. As Ambassador Kastner rightly stated, and the Nigerian ambassador also stated, peace in Nigeria is actually peace in Africa and with all modesty, peace in West Africa. Because of our population and because of our resources, if we are at peace, it would be beneficial to all of us. And to show the importance of this, I look at the number of people from State Department and from other parts of the U.S. that are with us this morning. It shows how important and how concerned you are about Nigeria and what is happening it gladdens my mind because those of us in the walking group, this is part of what has brought us together. As stated, we need to look at the root causes. And I remember when I was learning before going to be a deputy force commander in Sierra Leone, we were told that if you really want to kill a tree, it's not by cutting the branches, but going to the root. So since we are all here to look at the root causes, I believe that will kill the challenges much quicker than if we cut the branches as we have been doing, I think, in the past. Let me talk a little bit about the walking group you have been told. But what really brings us together? A group cut across different diversity of our country, different ethnic groups, different religious beliefs, and different experiences. And that's why you find an old soldier like me among the group of professors and doctors. We believe that it's important we change the mindset of people from beginning at home in Nigeria. And it's important that we change the narrative about our country, of what people are hearing. It's important that we look at the big picture and not the narrow narrative that we have been hearing from different people. We believe that there can never be peace without development and there can never be development without peace. So that is one of the things that brought us together. We also want to share our experiences and see how we can learn our voices to be heard in the way we can cooperate together to develop our country and to see progress in our society. So once again, I want to thank the USIP for affording us this opportunity to dialogue and to make new friends so we can work together for peace and progress in Nigeria. I want to end by quoting from one of my favorite people, Dr. Martin Luther King. I was only after him anyway. But I've read about him and one thing he said that we should learn to live together as brothers or we will die at fools. And another thing he said is that we fear each other because we don't know each other. We don't know each other because we do not communicate with each other. So with this communication that the opportunity we have will get to know ourselves more, will get to able to share experiences, will be able to change the narrative and together we will move to make Nigeria a stable nation where development will be for the benefit of the next generation of leaders and people in our country. Thank you. Thank you very much. We're now going to move into our panel discussions and I'm going to invite Dr. Pauline Baker to bring her panelists up to the front now. And as she does so, I am also going to acknowledge the presence of Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Neil Kringle in the Office of Conflict Stabilization Operations in the State Department. CSO has along with the African Bureau been a leading supporter of the efforts here at USIP to reach out to Northern Nigeria. And Neil, we appreciate that support. We appreciate the support of CSO along with others at the Department of State, including the Africa Bureau. I'm going to turn this over to Dr. Pauline Baker and she is going to lead the first panel. Can I invite the panelists up? I'm going to choose to sit down and keep this as informal as we possibly can. To begin with, I have an announcement and that is our fourth panelist from USAID got ill this morning so she will not be appearing today. I think this is an outstanding panel that we have to address the issue of peace in Nigeria. I'm going to ask each of them to speak about 10 minutes. That will leave us, I hope, ample time for Q&A. We're running a little bit late. And I'm going to ask the panel to focus on two major things. One of course is peace in Nigeria and as Ambassador Hassan and others have pointed out, this is a bigger issue than just Boko Haram or any single issue we want to get to, root issues, fundamentals in Nigeria. And the second thing is something that I think we tend to overlook when we look at conflict zones and that is an effort to try and identify the resilience within a society. The things that we can identify as the strengths within this society that have the capacity to be instrumental in promoting peace. Very often we just look at the conflict side, we don't look at the strengthening side. This is really important to me. I lived and worked in Nigeria for several years, including during the Biafran civil war. So I watched very carefully and was impacted by the Biafran war. Here we are 50 years later and we're talking about Biafra still. We thought it was settled. And that has spun into even a larger issue and that is the national dialogue on restructuring Nigeria as every group or identity group in Nigeria has a grievance, feels that for some reason they're not getting adequately represented. So this is a larger conversation. It's not about only one conflict, even though each one has a unique set of drivers. So I'm going to ask you all to please leave some space for what you think is good about Nigeria that could lead to peace, the resilience factors that it can call on, including the size of the population, the resources, et cetera. You all have your bios for the panel. Dr. Ibrahim is both a journalist and a scholar. He focuses on justice and development issues. We're going to begin with him today. Then we're going to move to Ambassador Bala, who is a career civil servant, has had many, many responsibilities, and is also along with Dr. Ibrahim, a member of the Nigeria working group, senior working group. Then we'll move on to Mr. Yao, YWYZ, who is from Kano, and he's done an awful lot on resilience in Nigeria, so I'm going to count on you to carry the load on that as well. So let's begin with Dr. Ibrahim, and would you all please try to confine yourself to 10 minutes. Thank you. I want to start by expressing my thanks to the United States Institute of Peace for the opportunity to participate both in the senior working group, but also to make this trip, which has been extremely useful in interacting with our American interlocutors. As you all know, Nigerians have always loved America, but Nigeria has also always had its problems with Americans. They tend to think they are the center of the world, but as everybody knows, Nigeria is at the center of the world. Just in case you don't know. One of the important things about Nigeria is that a political choice was made in 1946 when Governor Richards proposed an essentially unitarist constitution in the process of transition to independence, and the totality of the political class that was just imagined at that time rose against the constitutional proposals, mainly because Nigeria's political class felt we are what in political science literature we call a federal society that we are conscious of our differences. We have no complexes about our differences, and we've never had it, and we never defined nationalism as all Nigerians being the same. In 1946, the Richards Constitution, and 1951, when the alternative little-tone constitution emerged, the key issues that came to define Nigeria as a nation was the question of accepting and living with our diversity, but living with our diversity in a democratic process. And those two principles of diversity and of democracy have been what has guided Nigeria along its journey. Through that journey, we have had very serious challenges to our unity, to learning how to live together in peace. Those challenges, in my sense, have always been connected to challenges to practicing democracy in a way that created a sense of belonging to that Nigerian nation state living its diversity. Whenever we've had challenges to democracy, that challenges to democracy have translated into exacerbating our differences. There are two things that one can say about that political journey, is that we've taken ourselves often to the precipice, including a devastating civil war, but we've also learned the importance of withdrawing from the precipice at critical moments. I guess although we often express ourselves in colorful terms, there is a sense in which there is an acceptance in that country that if we remain democratic, if we remain inclusive, and if we continue to respect each other, our future together is bright because a reverse could also be true. But if we exist, as members of that political community, is to work continuously to ensure we do not cross that red line. Today in Nigeria, there's a huge debate about the imperative of restructuring, and part of that debate has been to pose the question whether we are crossed the threshold in terms of accepting to live together, and you often hear about groups of Nigerians making threats to opt out of the nation. There's a fascinating book by Professor Tamuno where he brings the numerous times in our history where these threats for secession has been made, and that has been going on continuously since the 1950s. We should never think just because today those voices articulate themselves loudly that we are witnessing a new phenomenon. We've had that for a very long time, and that's also because of our nature, our political confidence, our assertiveness. Everybody knows after Americans, Nigerians are the most assertive people in the world. We're never afraid. We are not shy. And we tell others off. We also tell ourselves off. The junction we find ourselves now today is maybe as problematic as some of the critical ones we've had in the past. The great problem today, and that's really what is new, is the very rapid spread of small arms and light weapons in the country. Confronting, as Ambassador Shannon said, context in which these huge bulge has evolved, the youth are agitated because they are unemployed. Break has occurred between educational systems and employment, and education no longer guarantees a reliable future for our youth. And with this new development of the rapid spread of arms, of course the problem becomes very acute. As General Agua has been saying throughout this trip, one of the challenges is that even the Nigerian army is being stretched beyond its limit. They are deployed in 32 states. And the army or any force cannot control such a vast population simply through the use of the force of arms, that political solutions are always the way forward. And in terms of thinking through this political situation and the political futures that are possible, I'll conclude with two points. The first is a strategic mistake made by the present administration when it came to power in 2015 in appearing to announce the end of the discussion on restructuring Nigeria. If there's one thing Nigerians are totally committed to, we must continue to debate and argue and fight about restructuring. We've been doing that for a very long time. When in 1934 tensions developed between the Igbo elite and the Yoruba elite in southern Nigeria was split into the west and the east, that debate took off. That was 1938. I never stopped. In that process, we've broken those two regions that existed in 1938 to today 36 and a half states, Abu Jhabi in the half states. In that process, my lord, I apologize and withdraw the health as bishop of Abu Jhabi. In that process of splitting political units, we overdid it. People can no longer see the strength in regions reproduced in these tiny states. People feel the only center of power is now the federal government. And that confidence to say, well, I can articulate and achieve my mission within my region appears to have disappeared. We need to search a way of making federating units stronger, more real. And that's a very genuine and legitimate demand. My own message to my political leadership in Nigeria is less accept to continue those debates and arguments about the best political structure for our country. That opening is something we need because we need to argue, to fight. As long as we do that within the context of democratic principles and the rule of law. My second concluding statement has to do with addressing the current crisis we have had. There's too much violence in the country and there is violent conflicts in too many parts of the country and our response has been based too much on deploying the military. We need to return to policing. We need to return to a way of addressing civic disturbance, civic complaints, public demonstrations in a way that doesn't brutalize people. It's good for people to demonstrate, to complain, to rally, don't deploy forces against them. The police exist to do its work, rebuilding their police force, using it to replace the army that has overstretched in our theaters of conflict is the best pathway towards returning Nigeria to its normalcy. And that normalcy is an argument of shouting at each other and laughing at each other, which we've been doing for so long. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dr. Ibrahim. Those are very thoughtful comments. We're going to now move on to Ambassador Bala. Good morning. Let me begin by saying that virtually almost all the 36 states in Nigeria is currently dealing with one crisis or the other. This range from insecurity is... Perceive religious crisis, communal crisis or natural disasters. All this happened where all this happened results in loss of people. We need to be careful. We need to be careful. We need to be careful. We need to be careful. We need to be careful. We need to be careful. And where all this happened results in loss of life, destruction of homes, farmlands, destabilization of communities, additional hardships, increase in poverty, and increase in poverty ends up to increase in insecurity. Let's look at the states that have the worst indices. Kaduna state is known for communal clashes, kidnapping, and religious uprising. The exact key phenomenon. In Plattu, we have indigenous settler crisis, farmers, Hulani headers crisis. Recently, there was a major misunderstanding between Igbo traders in Plattu and the Plattu community. In Benway, we have farmers' headers crisis, floods that have destroyed farmlands and homes. In Tharaba, we have the Jukun-Fulani conflict, seen as religious because the Jukuns are predominantly Christians and the Fulani is predominantly Muslims. Of recent, the Mambla Plattu uprising when the tribe of Kaka killed hundreds of Fulani destroying their homes and their cattle. In Nassarawa, we have the farmers' headers conflict, also seen as religious. In Kano, we have a serious crisis between the two leading politicians in the state and their followers. A clash between the two groups during last year, left many injured. These have made the political situation in Kano very tense and therefore unpredictable. In the north, the states of Adama, Borno, and Yobi are still dealing with the effect of the rampage done by the insurgency. Borno still gets sporadic attacks by suicide bombers. In the southeast, there is a serious agitation for cessation. The movement under Kano keeps gathering momentum despite military intervention and intervention by the political heads of governments in the southeast. This crisis has wiped out towns, villages. The people especially in the northeast cannot up till now go back to their normal life, especially in Borno being the center of Boko Haram. The Nigerian government, foreign governments, and international and local NGOs have been struggling to salvage the situation, but the methods used is not given the right effect. These groups concentrate on sending relief materials of perishable items to the internally displaced persons who have been in camps for years now. How long can we keep internally displaced persons in camps? That's the question. Doing so points to a sense that the areas are not still completely secured. And as long as the displaced persons continue to remain in IDP camps, they will never get back to normalcy, or normalcy cannot be achieved. Because the restrictions, the restrictive life in the camps will keep them dependent and will never have the ability to bounce back to normalcy. There is need to overhaul the assistance system, starting with the Nigerian National Emergency Management Agency, the NEMA. The NEMA connotes the temporality of the organization. Instead of NEMA, we should have a Department of Rehabilitation and Reconstruction, could be a lead for foreign countries and international organizations, giving assistance to these areas to emulate so that a concrete plan can be put on ground to ensure permanent resettlement. A matter of concern in areas hitherto taken over by Boko Haram, especially in the Northeast, is stigma to surviving victims. So victims' identities should be hidden instead of publicized, and victims and their families should go through counseling to enable them to settle in their former communities. Recently, the Government of Nigeria established a Presidential Committee for profiling special detainees. Special detainees here means suspected Boko Haram detainees that are in different prisons around the country or in military detention camps. This process is going on and I am a member of that committee. I participated in the profiling of the prisons in Lagos and Abuja, and our finding so far was that maybe 90% of the persons we found in those prisons were young men, very young men, some have finished secondary school, some have not, and we found that there have been in those prison distinctions for the last eight years, the ones in Lagos. So last eight years means that they were arrested even before Boko Haram became violent. Yes, Muhammad Yusuf had started preaching then, but Boko Haram had not become violent because Muhammad Yusuf was not killed. Boko Haram became violent after Muhammad Yusuf was killed. So the Government is trying to see how these persons, if found not guilty, can be released to their communities. But the problem is, somebody that has been put in prison for nine or eight years, if that person is released, where does he go? Because for the past nine or eight years, he has not been in contact with his family. His family does not know where they are. So it's a huge problem, it's a huge problem, but the process has been done. The question now is, how do you tell this kind of person to just walk out of the prison gate and go back to his normal home and become stable? It is also important that for those areas to achieve normalcy, areas that have already been captured from the insurgency should not be lost to them again. Security have to be maintained. And in doing that, there is need for training of the Army and the police to ensure professionalism and to avoid human right abuse. There's also a general disenchantment and a feeling of exclusion in several areas across the country. This brought about the demand for restructuring of the country. And typically of us, restructuring means different things to different people, depending on where you are standing. When the voices of this demand became very loud, the ruling APC set up a committee on true federalism. Currently, the committee is going around different zones, different states in the country. And they have opened conversations in all the zones in the country asking the people to give their views on things like creation of states, derivation principle, federating units, fiscal federalism, revenue allocation, forms of government, and independent candidacy. Nigerians presently are talking. Where it will only to, I wouldn't know, well, I'm not sure. But as somebody, as one of us said, I think it's Professor Gibrin Ibrahim, that Nigerians love to talk. If you give them the opportunity to talk and discuss their problems, they will get engaged. And then as long as it keeps on going, then another problem will not arise. Thank you very much. Thank you, Ambassador Mala. We'll now turn to Wyzee. I copy and paste the gratitude that the Jibo had expressed of being invited here. I want to start by saying that the Jibo's intervention has shown the political resilience of the space called Nigeria. We can talk, we can shout, but yet the nation still exists. What I want to do in my intervention is to show that beyond political resilience, there is also resilience at the community level. That community resilience is critical to ensuring the political resilience that we have seen. And in doing so, I'd like to start with something that the media often report as exotic. Whenever there is a conflict, you hear reports about, for instance, in the East, Ebo people hiding house of people and protecting them to ensure that no harm comes to them. And you hear also similar stories in the North, where the Northerners hide and protect others so that they are not harmed by this. You also see instances where Christians get Muslims to pray or Muslims protect Christians during their own prayers. Now, these are reported as just exotic things and not seen in the context of really building communal associations that don't protect individuals. What we always hear is about the devastation, the damages, the killings and so forth. It is important to document this, but I think for me, it's also important to go beyond the exotic that we see, to look at what are people doing in their own communities to build peace, to restore peace, to ensure that there are no conflicts in their own communities. And in doing that, we would be able to learn what is it these communities are doing to ensure that there is peace in this own community. What it is that we can learn so that we can multiply the many, many things of islands of peace that can multiply become a peaceful nation. When we looked at the various theatres of conflict, especially in the Northeast, it's tempting to think that in all the states, especially in Borno, Adamawa, Yobi, that these communities were overrun by the Boko Haram instances. Our status shows that is not the case, that there were communities that were able to resist, communities that were able to bounce back, and communities that actually never allow the insurgents to have a place where they had to operate and so forth. So it's important to know how did they do it, and what is this that they have, that were and above them to do, or what is this that other communities that were overrun, that became easy targets that do not have, and other communities have. I want to give, for instance, two specific examples in my sister's place, Adamawa. It took place like a movie, large prosperous settlement. It was ransack, additional rulers played, everybody ran, and the insurgents who established this flag. In nearby Gombe, it was not possible, Gombe resisted, and in the end, it was the efforts of people from Gombe that actually largely provided the support for the liberation of a movie. So what is this that Gombe had that movie didn't have? I think for me, there are a number of factors that we need to look to. We often hear that many conflicts, including Boko Haram as a result of poverty, and I would say, well, there seems to be more poverty in southern Niger Republic than in northern Algeria. So why is it that the Boko Haram is rooted on the Nigerian side and not fair? I look at different communities across Nigeria. I look at the patterns of the conflict. There are communities that are at the same level with what you profile, but yet they present extremely different manifestations in one place, it's peaceful, in others, it's not. So for me, I think that poverty is critical, it's important, but it's not sufficient to generate conflicts. I think that economic exclusion, income inequalities are very important triggers. In other words, communities where you have relatively less income differentiation tend to cohere and tend to be more peaceful than communities in which you have extreme inequalities with vast island of poverty, I mean, sea of poverty and small islands of vast richness. And so for me, one of the things that we need to do in addressing the many manifestations of conflicts in Nigeria is to address economic inequalities in our communities. So important, it's about social exclusion. Many of the communities that were overrun were communities in which you find clear sense of exclusion, people do not have access to decision making processes, people do not have access to community leaders, feel a sense of belonging, and it is that context that provides the entry point for people who want to disturb the peace. And you can see that in the many experiences that we have stated, for instance, in the Goza in Borno State, where in a way become more like the headquarters of Boko Haram. It was because the community became so divided among itself. And it was divided because there were things, I mean, perceptions of exclusion and so forth. And so it became very easy for Boko Haram to move in and take over the environment. Because when they moved in, started picking on the Christian, Muslim is true. They're fighting Christian, not us. And when they finished the Christian, then the Muslim became the target. Then the Christians were nowhere to offer solidarity and so forth. But it's not just about religion. If you take Burma, it's one of the most devastated communities. It was also because there were clear sense of persecution, perception of exclusion, and so forth. And it's interesting that in Burma, it was ransacked. Churches were not attacked, but all the mosques were destroyed. And so here, west, the center for exclusion, the contest, between traditional Islamic groups and other forms of Islamic practice. So it became the exclusion. It's no longer about Christian versus Muslim, but about internet division within the Muslim community. Which also had historical hearing about who came first, whether it's Ingenious Canary or they are the new settler communities of Canary who have a movie. So we need to address social inequality, I mean, exclusion in our own communities and so forth. And that brings me to what I see on the streets of Burma in my degree. I see three different communities. I see governments doing one thing. I see humanitarian agencies doing one thing. I see ordinary people doing one thing. And there seem to be no coordination, no exchange, no engagement. And this creates a psychology of blaming others. Today, the word NGO on the street of Maduguri has extremely negative connotations. The NGOs define humanitarian agencies. They live in the best waters, ride the best vehicles, be protected, the ordinary people. Daily grounding, the IDP comes in sufficient food. Children dying of malnutrition and so forth. And they don't understand why is it that they hear tons of tons of food being brought to Maduguri. And yet, hundreds of children are dying of malnutrition. Nobody's offering explanation to them. And so I see that as clear manifestation of the exclusion that we have. That our strategy of addressing the post-conflicts is not inclusive. Just the thing that only governments and the agencies know the answers. The ordinary people who have burned the burden and burned the burden. Actually, if we're stuck of knowledge, it will be important in addressing the crisis that we see. The first point is to think that it depends to promote the culture of consultation at a community level, at a national and state level, across governance system. So it's consultation that we saw that enabled people in Gumbi to come together irrespective of the ethnic divides, irrespective of the religious divides, to provide mechanisms for early warning systems, to provide mechanisms of processing information that would tell them about danger, to constitute the team of the hunters that today we hear and who became modern to. The isolated cases where people have been able to sustain peace, one critical element is about consultation. But people are able to participate in decision making processes at this community level. And I think it's important to do this thing. I think that we also need to address the way in which religious knowledge is being imparted in our communities. Over the years, teaching of religious knowledge has become something that you do when there are no other things to do. And so you go to our schools and they say, what's your name? It's Muhammad. Okay, you can teach Islamic studies irrespective of whether you read chemistry or biology. What's your name? Jacob. Okay, you can teach Christian religious knowledge. And so you have people whose understanding of the religion itself is deficient, is questionable, and we have entrusted our own children to this set of people when they're not teaching them religion, they're not teaching them to love people as the religions have said. They're simply doing damage to our own. And so what we see is the increasing rise in uncivil conversations, conversations that are framed around us versus others, spurious versus ethereal. And so from there, you move to hate speech conversations. You begin to hate dehumanize others, begin to consciously discriminate, and begin to consciously incite violence against others. So I think that we need to also address the prevalence of hate speech in our community. We need to promote the culture of civic conversations. We need to promote a culture of tolerance. Today, many Nigerians have very low tolerance of criticism. Once you criticize them, they then turn back and begin to engage in hate speech and so forth. So when criticism itself is not hate speech, the response is to get hate speech. So you begin to run into circles for speech acts that can easily catalyze into violence. And yet we know a lot can be done and in fact it's possible to. The committee that his eminence and others set up in the run up to the 2015 general elections, that we ran an observatory about the volume of hate speech in the Nigerian social media space. And from January to March, it's kept on steadily rising until the accord was signed, the peace accord. And immediately the peace accord was signed and other actors began to talk about peaceful election and so forth. And we saw steady decrease in the volume of hate speech. And this continued until after the election and then it started to rise again and today it has hit an all-time high. And so it means that we can and I think that we must do something. My final point would be to say that there is incentive for youth to engage in violent activities because the society has denied them the opportunities for decent living. Youth unemployment is extremely high in Nigeria. And for those who have studied the Boko Haramch who interviewed many former Boko Haramch insurgents, tell you that they went in because somebody offers them a job, somebody offers them loans, somebody offers them vehicles and so many things. And so we need to do something about that. I think that we must recognize that we can keep on trying to win the minds. One thing we must remember that the wholeness of the minds is not sufficient to win them over until there is the fullness of the stomach. Thank you. Well thank you very much, Wysey. You certainly have given us a lot to think about. Johnny, how are we on time? I'm going to say go about 15 more minutes. 15 more minutes? I'm good. 15. Right, I didn't think it was 15. Toping too much. Okay, we'll open it up for questions now. Yes, sir. My name is Charles Quellum and I work with Mennonite Central Committee. It's a pacifist, faith-based organization. I'm just going to be open with my questions, though my questions might either be directed to either of you, the panelists. Thank you very much for your contributions. First, I want to ask a question around the issues of restructuring, which to some persons in the north, the northern part of Nigeria, it's entirely a different perspective to the other person who is either from the south. In fact, the six geographical zones in Nigeria, different perspectives around restructuring. And so I am beginning to wonder why from the previous democratic dispensation, we had a national dialogue. And if I'm not mistaken, a very great number of Nigerians commended that initiative. And I want to believe that all those who represented the six geographical zones in Nigeria were credible Nigerians who were well revered and respected and decorated not only by the government, but also by the citizens of Nigeria. And so at the end of the day, there was a working document and recommendations that were submitted. I do not know the word about it. Can you just define the question? Okay, good. So do you think that there is a place for those recommendations made from the national dialogue that was undertaken at that point in time as regards to moving Nigeria forward? And then also as regards to the fact that the NGOs and INGOs, CSOs operating in Nigeria, most especially in the North Eastern part, has been regarded as being very, very robust and wasteful. I mean, they have all the resources and yet the people in the IDP camps suffer. I want to ask, quote, intervention funds has the Nigerian government put the issues of rehabilitation, the issues of IDPs and the issues of psychosocial support to not only the victims, but also the perpetrators who acted for the fact that they see themselves as victims. Okay, that I think we've got enough to chew on here. Jibran, would you like to start answering first? The question on restructuring, why is he here who was in the national conference and they took all those nice decisions, as well as the crazy ones like 18 states, so he has better answer for himself. But on the question of intervention in the Northeast, I think the key issue there is that before the insurgency, Northeast Nigeria was already the poorest part of the country. It had extreme poverty and when you add that to the years of war we have had, of course, the level of need has become massive and don't forget, this is the fourth year in which people have not been able to farm. So the needs are critical. One of the issues that happened is when the World Bank assessment came in terms of what the financial needs were, the total support available could meet even half of the needs. But specifically, I think there has been a lot of support. First of all, from the private sector, the General Dan Juma chairs this Victim Support Fund, which has been able to raise 35 billion Naira for the intervention. At the level of government, they've set up the Presidential Committee on Northeast Initiatives, which is also chaired by Dan Juma that is coordinating intervention at the level of ministries, departments, and agencies of government. It's also involved with trying to bring alongside coordination with the donor community. At the level of the donor community, a lot of them, the United States, the European Union, have reoriented, and DFID is also a major player. They have reoriented a lot of their support for Nigeria to feed into providing support for the Northeast. I feel there is a sense in which there has been a delay in terms of the coordination. It took two years to set up the coordinating mechanism, and that created quite a lot of the dysfunctions that we have seen in the process. But I think there is now quite a lot of seriousness in terms of addressing the issue. Nonetheless, as I started by saying, the level of need is so high that it's going to be extremely difficult. Just one word in terms of resilience. People always talk about bouncing back and the issue about the crisis in the Northeast that makes absolutely no sense for that region to bounce back to where it was before the crisis, because where it was was the poorest section of Nigeria. So it's really the atomic option that's required in terms of the qualitative transformation of the lives of the people. Why do you delegate in the national conference? So you take over. Researchers are very clever people. You started by saying that the national delegates were people who were decorated by citizens, by government, and I know nobody had decorated me, so I think that means that I'm not sure your premise is right. That being said, if you look at the reports of the committee, it's actually full of contradictions. There are demands for regionalism. They also have recommendations for 19 additional states. And so it's really with contradictions. But it's also not unanimous. There are also strong dissenting voices about some of the recommendations that were contained in the report. But more importantly, I think for me, we missed the opportunity when former president Goodluck, who inaugurated the national dialogue, failed to implement those recommendations we didn't even require constitutional amendment. Now, if he had implemented those, the recommendations were categorized into three. Recommendations that require only executive actions, which he could do so. Recommendations that require some legal instruments. And recommendations that require constitutional amendments. And I think that for the first two sets, if he had initiated action, I think it would have gone a long way in that. And we missed that opportunity. And I think that there was a point that Juba made at the beginning. That if when this government said we have nothing to do with it, and we can understand where that position was coming, because the APC as a party decided to boycott the national conference. And therefore it saw the product as a product that it wasn't going to touch. And I think that perhaps if he had allowed us to continue to debate and debate, perhaps even the four years would have ended, we would still be debating what we want and understand about restructuring and whether it's additional state, whether it's going back to regional governments, whether the most substantive thing for me and for many other people, it's about transfer of some of the legislative items under the exclusive needs to the states and even to local government. And I think that it's much easier to achieve consensus on that type of restructuring than about the creating more states or merging more states because as more people are demanding for regional autonomy, you have as many people demanding for more, more states than they can become like local government themselves. I'd like to exercise the prerogative of the chair and ask a question, which I think all your comments have raised and call it the paradox of the restructuring dialogue. On the one hand, you all agree that more debate is a good thing. Nigerians have always done it. This is how they resolve the differences. This is how they pull back from the brink. This is healthy, et cetera. On the other hand, why is it you pointed out how when that debate is cast in terms of we, they rather than us or the nation as a whole, that can lead to negative dialogue and hate speech and winner take all kinds of recommendations. The question is how can the restructuring debate, which right now seems to be dividing Nigeria between the government that doesn't want it and everybody else who seems to want it, how can the government be reassured and other critics be reassured that the restructuring debate is a healthy, positive thing that Nigeria needs to do to reach peace and prosperity. What are the rules, the ground rules for it, for example, that would define the limits of this debate as well as the opportunities to make everyone feel that they have a stake in making this be a positive experience? I think for me, if people move from generalization about restructuring and be more concrete about what they mean, I think it would make progress. And I think that if we take it in the gradual process, then it's much easier to achieve consensus. And one of the ways that you can do that, today, I think many people think that you can achieve consensus about that, but a lot of the powers that are at the federal level can be developed to state governments. And I think that is one area that you can easily achieve consensus. Governors would want more powers. And as Jibo said, everybody would want to have a more powerful state than simply running to Abuja and so forth. So if we can move the debate around that, we can be able to evolve. And that also fits in with the demand for autonomy of local government and so forth. Again, this is something that many Nigerians are easy to agree on and to achieve consensus. We want local autonomy for local government. And I think that the National Assembly has already demonstrated that consensus by passing the bill for local government autonomy. Where we have this nod in that is that whereas governors want more powers at this level, they don't want more powers at the local government level. And I think that is where we need to do a lot of work. And I think if we can focus our energy on this, I think we can make some substantive progress in that direction. Latina and Jibrin, do you have any response to that? Yes. What I know is that the debate is taking into consideration all the aspects that are issues in the country, but that it is also controlled. And the main focus is to ensure that youth, the youth in the society, their voices are heard. Because the belief is that what we need now in Nigeria is what will make the young people in Nigeria to take up leadership positions, to be focused and to know what they want for themselves. The argument is that, you know, our generation, our time is almost over. So if the young ones come on board and tell us what they are thinking are, and that is what we are going to work with. So it's a little bit controlled so that, you know, it does not go all over, you know, high scale to the extent that it brings this agreement. And that's so much talk down. Yes. Jibrin, you get the last word. Just to say, following what Ya'u was saying, comparative federalism normally have three legislative lists. Exclusive, where federal government alone has powers. Residual, where the federating units alone have powers. And then the concurrent lists, where the other, the two levels could work. In the Nigerian constitution, we have only two lists, the exclusive and the concurrent. And that creates a real problem in terms of what does autonomy mean in our federation, when there is no issue of legislation in which the federating unit itself has exclusive powers to act. And I think it is very important. The second thing is, when you look at our constitution, among federal systems, we have the longest exclusive legislative list, 60 items, and includes all sorts of things. One of the funniest that nobody seemed to have noticed is that there's an article in the constitution that says public relations about the Nigerian federation is an exclusive preserve of the federal government alone. So all the good things we are saying here about the importance of federalism is strictly speaking unconstitutional. People have already looked at that list. And when you look at it, we are the only country in the world where statutory marriage can only be done by the federal government. It's crazy. It's a municipal responsibility in all other jurisdictions. So we wrote that constitution originally under a military rule, where the notion of centralization is so ingrained with apologies to general. But my point is, rather than look at those 60 exclusive items on the, I mean, the 60 items in the exclusive legislative list, we talk about zones. And that's where we lose the script, because we are now no longer looking at what are the powers you are really talking about. You are talking of who has privileged access in a zonal sense. Well, on that happy note of constitutional reform, please join me in thanking this very good panel. Thank you, Pauline. And thank you for the panelists for a very, very good discussion. We're running about 15 minutes behind late, 15 minutes late, and we're going to only have a 10 minute quick short break. The facilities are out and down the hole if you need to go to the restrooms, and there is some coffee and tea outside as well. 10 minute break, and we're going to start pretty punctually in about 12 or 13 minutes after. Thank you. Say hello to this lady, because she, I keep saying you've got to finally got a blue ball. Oh, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, Hi, we're going to try and get started with our next panel to get our next panel back up and going. Professor Jega is here. Dr. Kingsley Maholu is here, I know. And Sandra Clark, the director for West African Affairs. So we're missing just one person at this at this point. We're going to close those doors back there so that we can get started again. I thought the first panel was spectacular, did a wonderful job of covering a lot of issues from various angles. And so it was really, really great. We're running about 15 behind. Yes, indeed. We're running about 15 minutes behind schedule. And I'm going to leave it to my colleague, Ambassador Princeton Lyman, to introduce the panel topic and his participants. I'm also going to give a quick shout out, though, to David Smock, who's here with us as well. Many people know David for his many years of service to USIP and the person who has been most instrumental in the early years of driving USIP's engagement in Nigeria with his program of the pastor and the Imam. So David, thank you for joining us and being with us today. Princeton, it's all yours. Thank you. Thank you, Johnny. And thanks, everybody, for being here today for this event. And let me just say a quick word of appreciation to Johnny Carson, who really has spearheaded this project and USIP's putting Nigeria at the near the top of our list around the world. And to Oge Onobogo, where is she? Oge? Well, Oge, who deserves an enormous amount of credit for putting this program together. And I would say, put the meat on the bones of this project by working tirelessly to bring it together. So thank you both and thanks, everybody who's been participating. This panel, which we renamed, if you have an O program, you don't have the right title. This panel is now titled Good Governance, Justice, Democracy, or Economic Opportunity, or Must It Be All Three? And we want to pick up on the excellent discussion in the first panel, where people talked about what makes societies more or less resilient. There was a discussion of exclusion and widespread inequality. There was talk of the need for people to have voice, to have a voice in decision making. We're going to, in this panel, we're going to try and focus on what are the responsibilities of good governance. And what we've all agreed upon is that we're going to stay away from platitudes. We're going to try and delve down into what do we mean by good governance? Do we mean justice? Do we mean democracy? Do we mean development? What is most important, and in particular, what are we saying to people in office, and governors in particular, in northern Nigeria, but elsewhere, when everybody says to them, good governance is important, what is it that they should do most? And what is in their power to do? So with that background, let me introduce this really fine panel. We have Professor Adehiru Mohamedu Jega. Professor Jega is, I think, known to, should be known by now to everyone, was leader of the Invented Nigerian Electoral Commission for the election of 2015. He has a long distinguished history as an academic, particularly associated with Bayero University, where he is today, Professor of Political Science. He has taken his experience and expertise around the world. Most recently, he's been to Ghana. Three times, he tells me to Kenya in relationship to the recent elections there, a real, a real outstanding combination of scholar and activist. And I've asked him to start dealing with the political aspects of good governance. What do we mean by that in terms of justice or democracy or elections? And then next will be Kingsley Mohallo. Kingsley is an extraordinarily prolific scholar, writes continuously and speaks his book Emerging Africa, which I would recommend. He's really an outstanding assessment of the meaning of governance, particularly with regard to development, but in the broadest sense of the word. Kingsley was the Deputy Governor of the Central Bank in Nigeria. He was very recently named by UNCTAD to the Intergovernmental Group of Experts on the Financing of Development. And he is a number of distinguishing, distinguished connections to Fletcher and other academic institutions. Now, and then, and he had asked Kingsley to speak to the development aspects of good governance. What do that, what does that mean? And what's feasible and practical in terms of the situation in Nigeria? And then my colleague and friend, Sandra Clark, who is the Director of the West Africa Office of the State Department, has a long career. She has previously served as Deputy of our mission in Dakar. She has worked on Europe. She has worked on Asia. She's worked really around the world. The most important thing, of course, is she worked with me in Nigeria a long time. But Sandra is an extremely fine officer with a great deal of experience in the economics of development and of politics. So Sandra, thank you. And I've asked her to speak a little bit to how the U.S. government looks at the issue of good governance and what does that mean in terms of when we provide support or advice. So let me begin, if I will, with Ambassador Jenga. And thank you again for participating. Thank you very much, Ambassador Lehman and distinguished ladies and gentlemen. It's a pleasure to be back at USAIP and to participate in this very important discussion on peace in Nigeria, how to build it, and America's role in this. I want to preface my contribution to the discussion on governance with what I consider to be an excellent framework presented by Dr. Jebreen Ibrahim in the earlier panel. And in particular, the fact that Nigeria has been constructed by British colonial authorities on the notions of unity in diversity. And what is clear is that throughout Nigeria's history, one of the major challenges has been the management of that diversity. The second issue which he clearly articulated is that it was also built on the premise of being a democracy. Of course, that was challenged for a long time, not only by crisis, but also by a long history of military rule. But since 1999, for almost 19 years now, Nigeria has been through a democratization process unbroken by previous tendencies of military incursions into politics. But still, that transition to democracy has been very tumultuous. The democratic institutions and the processes are very weak and very fragile. And of course, in spite of these 19 years or so of democratization. And I think the consequence of all this is that the state itself has been ravaged by bad or poor governance. And there is no doubt, I think in the mind of most Nigerians, if not all Nigerians and friends of Nigeria, that good democratic governance is required, both for the management of diversity and for addressing the fundamental needs and aspirations of our people. And of course, to have good democratic governance, we would require visionary, inclusive leadership. We would also require strong institutions for deepening democracy, for managing diversity. And of course, for demanding transparency and accountability of leadership, of government, and of institutions of governance. So, I think the key question as framed by Ambassador Lehmann is then what is good governance and how do we understand it in the context of Nigeria and in the management of violent conflicts and for building peace? Obviously, good governance is one of those concepts that are quite opaque. But to me, I think whatever else good governance can be said to mean, I believe that first and foremost, it is about an elected leadership that competently and judiciously harnesses societal resources and utilizes these through governmental institutions to equitably address and satisfy what I call the fundamental needs and aspirations of citizens. So, to satisfy these fundamental needs and aspirations of citizens, obviously, it means that we have to go back to the basics and interrogate the question of what is the fundamental role of the state in terms of satisfying the fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. And I think those of us who are familiar with the theories and discussions on the role of the state, particularly in the liberal democratic context, know that one of the key roles of the state is protecting lives and properties of citizens. Secondly, it is regulating a broad range of relationships within the framework of the rule of law. And thirdly, and also most importantly, is what I call provisioning of public services to address collective human needs, whether in the areas of education or health or social welfare services or even in policing in addressing the issue of security of lives and property. So, hence, I believe that good governance is both about, and coming back to the key question, I think with this definition, good governance is both about democracy, about justice and equity, and also about economic development. Poor or bad governance, I believe, is when political leadership is characterized by lack of competence, by lack of capacity, and efficiency in harnessing societal resources through governmental institutions to address those fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. So I think the challenge in countries with deficit in governance, and certainly with a country like Nigeria, is associated with at least three things. One is how to nurture and deepen democracy and its institutions. And this is very, very important, whether in the management of diversity or in harnessing resources to meet the needs and aspirations of the people. The second area has to do with how to reform governmental institutions for competence and capacity with responsibility and responsiveness in addressing those needs of the people. And the third area relates to how to strengthen the rule of law and the role of the adjudicative and regulatory institutions, such as the judiciary and so on, and other agencies of government. And in a country such as Nigeria, I think all these issues come to prominence. And if we talk about the need for good governance, and that's why I've qualified it good democratic governance, because I think in discussion of good governance, we tend to forget that there was a time in history when authoritarian regimes in Southeast Asia were models, you know, because you can provide development and provide needs of the people, but without inclusion and the participation in the process. And I think clearly that model has been shown to be not only out of date but counterproductive. And what we require is a democratic basis for good governance, because that is the only way you can harness societal resources and you can use efficiency and effectiveness to equitably apply these resources in meeting those fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. So I think in Nigeria, really to move in the direction of good governance, we have to seek to increasingly improve the competence in leadership, because there is clear deficit in leadership competence for quite a number of reasons which time will not permit us to go in. So we have to constantly interrogate how to get competent visionary leadership that has the capacity and the competence to really deliver the expectations of people in governance. And also how to continuously reform the leadership selection processes. And this is why I bring the issue of electoral integrity. I think obviously the electoral process in many countries that are in transition to democracy have somehow lacked that capacity to help the selection process in bringing about this visionary, competent and effective leadership. And unfortunately, I think for a long time also many theorists of electoral democracy have tended to assume that once you have regular periodic elections, then that is good for democracy. And not considering the fact that it is not elections per se that are really important but the integrity of the conduct of elections. Because otherwise you won't get what is required in terms of the delivery of good governance and all of the positive things that come with it. So I believe that really in the Nigerian context we have to pay attention to that. I think in the last few years we've been able to break the cycle of very bad conduct of elections, not only by the consensus that has emerged within Nigeria amongst stakeholders for the significance of having credible elections, but also with the support of the international community. And so we've come some way, but the challenges are still there. And I think the greatest challenge is how do we ensure that there is not a reversal to the old tendency of bad conduct of elections. And how can we keep on improving upon what we've already been able to achieve? And how do we continue to address still mounting challenges in terms of a sustainable process of credible elections? So really for me, this is a very, very important issue for our desire, for good governance in our country, for good leadership and for addressing managing diversity and also addressing issues of violence, violent conflicts, and for peace in our country. The other issue, apart from focusing on electoral integrity, and it's an issue again that Dr. Jibrin Ibrahim raised in his contribution, police sector reform. I think you cannot protect lives and properties in a country like Nigeria with the kind of policing arrangement that we have. When clearly the police is ineffective, is inefficient, is riddled by all sorts of challenges, and we have to continue to rely on the military to do policing duty and their own actions and preparations and training further complicates matters in terms of violation of rights and feeding into the questions of ethnicity and religion and other identities. So I think this is an area that for long requires fundamental tackling, but which for a long time we haven't been addressing. I think security sector reform generally, but addressing policing is fundamental to the Nigerian state being able to discharge that role of protecting lives and properties and ensuring compliance with the rule of law. Protecting citizens, to discharge their obligations and to also enjoy their rights and duties as citizens. And if you don't have an effective policing, you cannot protect, you cannot enforce laws, and you cannot also create that environment that is required for the expression of rights and the defense of these rights. And obviously restoration of increasing equity and justice in the governance process is important. So obviously a focus also on justice reforms, the judicial process for education, for enforcing regulatory frameworks is also very important. I think specifically one can say that Nigeria has come a long way in electoral reforms, but there are still formidable challenges. And the striving for electoral integrity has to be sustained and strengthened especially as everybody has been talking about. We approach the 2019 general elections and we also have to address these issues of institutional strengthening that can help the process of having good democratic governance in our country. Thank you very much. Professor, thank you very much. You've raised a number of really important concepts that I know we want to come back and discuss more. Kingsley, can I turn to you please? Thanks. Thank you. Thank you very much, Princeton. And Johnny, thank you for this conference. Thank you for the invitation. I'd like to, before I make my remarks, also to just recognize and express my respects to his eminence, Cardinal John Onayekon and the Sultan of Sokoto, Saad, represented by Dr. Osman Bukaje. Let me say that what I want to say here is really not addressed to the government or to our political leaders. I want to say a few things, some of which will be explosive, and I want to address them to the Nigerian people. Therefore, the memo is to the people. The memo is no longer to the government because the government or our governments, I think, have shown that they do not have the capacity to take Nigeria to the next level. We come to these meetings and we celebrate the fact that Nigeria is still standing, that we're still one country, that we're still existing. We defied the predictions of U.S. intelligence analysts that in 2015 Nigeria will go bust. We think we're making progress 57 years, 50 of independence, and this is the kind of discussion we're still having. We should be ashamed of ourselves, and that includes those who have supposedly been leading us and those of us who are the lead. We should be ashamed of ourselves because we haven't done what we should do. Power in any democracy belongs to the people. The real challenge that Nigerians and Nigerian citizens have now is to exercise their power and exercise that power to bring about the type of leadership in Nigeria that can take Nigeria into the future. The leadership we have now simply is not wired to achieve that aspiration. Why is this so? The process that produces Nigeria's political leaders is a process that is not based on competence. It is not a process that is based on vision. If there's any vision, I'd love to hear it. It's not a process that shows an understanding of what leadership actually means. As Professor Jager has said, there's need for real leadership to have vision. There's need for leadership to be able to inspire and mobilize citizens to a desired future state. There's need for a leader to be able to organize citizens. That's the organizing principle, to be able to actually achieve concrete goals. All of that is absent. So what we have is a process that's based on ethnicity, it's based on religion, based on vested interests, and every cycle they come to power to perpetuate their misrule. So let me make a few comments about the economy. 57 years after independence, our GDP per capita is $1,600 and something dollars. This is Nigeria, supposedly the biggest country in Africa. So we need, first of all, to bring about a new leadership class in Nigeria. The current political leadership class, I think they've, let's just be polite and say they've done the best they know how. And we can invite them to go into retirement. We need a new leadership generation in Nigeria. Otherwise, all these things we're discussing here will end up just theories. So, and that's why this memo is to the citizens. And so it's for the citizens to actually act in the collective interests of our country. Now, Princeton, in the framework he set out for the discussion, talked about whether we need justice, democracy, and economic development, justice, democracy, and development. Almost we have all three. Of course we must have all three. Development and progress, these are interlocked processes. If you don't have justice, the protests, the feelings of indignation, the feelings of exclusion lead to destabilization, and that's what we're having in Nigeria today. So we're talking about democracy, but we don't have justice in Nigeria. It's obvious we don't have justice. And so that's why the country is very tense. There are lots of separatist agitations, and people are feeding into these agitations simply because they've given up hope that there can ever be justice. That's what's feeding the agitations. It's not, there's nothing else. It's the absence of justice. So you can't have peace without justice. Now, if you are able to establish justice, then you can talk about running your democracy the way it should be run, as Professor Jagger has said, the integrity of electoral processes. But if the purpose of democracy is all politics, but no leadership, how do you think electoral processes can be fair? Because the purpose of politics is not for the people's will to prevail. The purpose of politics is for vested interests to prevail and entrench those interests further. So justice is important. Democracy is important. And development is important. A lot of people are feeding or participating in the separatist agitations or in the activities that are destabilizing to the security of the country because they do not have economic security. And so you cannot separate these things. That's the point I'm trying to make. 29 million people out of jobs, out of jobs in Nigeria, they're unemployed. And this is a conservative, statistic figure, statistic. So when you invite them to become parts of militias to blow up oil pipelines, they're willing and ready. What else is there for them to do? When you invite them to declare a Biafran enclave, what else is there for them to do? It's because they have no hope. So I believe that our number one task in Nigeria is for the people of Nigeria to really rise up, exercise their democratic rights as citizens, and begin to look at leadership selection with very different lenses. For that to happen, we must be able to move beyond the things that divide us and focus a lot more on the things that unite us. We must now want different things. We must now think differently. We must now want different kinds of people to lead us to produce those different things that we now want. Again, this memo is to the citizens. And so educating the citizens for them to take up their responsibility to say, look, we want a leader who can give us inclusive economic growth, not just GDP growth. GDP growth is important. But in and of itself, that does not result in economic transformation. It's inclusive economic growth that brings about economic transformation. So I would like to say that the focus in Nigeria, a country of 180 million people, should be on all these three things at the same time. Justice, democracy, economic development. But that cannot happen until and unless we have the right kinds of leaders. No one can give what they do not have. If you don't, you know, as a man think it, so is he. So we should begin to look at, in the political process, people who think and act in certain ways that are consistent with the possibility that we can create a different future for our country. If we continue to do business the way we've been doing it, we can have a lot of conferences and talk a lot about Nigeria. But in another 10 to 20 years, it will still be fundamentally the same problem. So I conclude by saying the memo is to the citizens of Nigeria, rise up and take action. Vote in good competent leaders who are visionary, who understand what leadership means, who have economic competence. In a number of African countries, we've seen results. Because leadership in the context of Africa must be result oriented and it must be transformational. We've seen what is happening in countries like Botswana, Mauritius, Rwanda, Ethiopia. I know there are controversies over rights and political spaces. But there is progress because there is some level of competence. There's some level of understanding what makes an economy actually grow inclusively. And that's what I think we need in Nigeria. We have very entrepreneurial citizens, very dynamic. And then let me also say that if we don't address, and this comes back to justice, if we don't address the issue of restructuring Nigeria, it's going to be very difficult for our economy to actually grow in an inclusive way. Because the model, the constitutional model we have is fundamentally geared against economic transformation. It's a model that is based on sharing oil rents. It's not a model that is based on building wealth. So if you don't change that model, it's going to be difficult. So it's very foundational. Thank you. Thank you. As always, you're provocative and raising some very fundamental issues. Thank you. Sandra, can I turn to you? Please, thanks. Well, first let me thank you, Ambassador Lyman and USIP for the invitation to participate in this panel. It's an honor for me to be here among such distinguished panelists. And I very much have enjoyed the morning so far. So thank you. The United States government looks at Nigeria and sees a country with enormous potential, but also a country with great risk of falling short of that potential. And I would say that governance is what, or good governance perhaps, is what will make the difference, and what would tip the scale in either direction. Nigeria is already Africa's most populous country, and it is projected to be the world's third largest by 2050. That trend brings enormous opportunity to Nigeria, but only if the population is healthy, productive, educated, and contributing to a prosperous and peaceful Nigeria. If, on the other hand, the next generation of Nigerians feel that they have few opportunities, or that their government is not responding to their needs, and if there is a widening gap between rich and poor, or if they don't feel safe, then there is a great risk of increased instability and unrest. You asked us, Ambassador Lyman, to think about the definition of governance. And I listened carefully to my fellow panelists and how they talked about governance. And we, in my office, did some research about governance and had a discussion as well about what does it mean. And I think what definition should we use for governance? I think, to my personal view, at its core, governance is about the relationship between citizens and their elected officials and government. And so I see good governance as institutions that are and are perceived as acting fairly and effectively to respond to the needs of the population. The State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, we see our job in this context as supporting Nigerian-led efforts to build more effective, accountable institutions that are responsive to the Nigerian people. And to help Nigerians build the institutional capacity needed to support this highly educated and healthy and productive population, the United States invests about half a billion dollars a year in foreign assistance, which is one of our largest bilateral assistance programs in sub-Saharan Africa. As Under Secretary Shannon said earlier this morning, the Free and Fair 2015 election was a turning point in America's relationship with Nigeria. And it is critical that Nigeria build on that momentum as the country heads into state elections and then the general elections in 2019. As we have in the past, the United States is ready to support free and fair and peaceful elections to expand current technical assistance for elections institutions and civil society organizations and to use our convening power to foster stronger collective engagement in support of a transparent, inclusive electoral process. But free and fair elections, they are an important part of democracy and government legitimacy as they give citizens a say in who represents them and an opportunity to change. But also important is the effective and fair implementations of the policies between those elections. We hear from Nigerians that the drivers of conflict are poverty and unemployment, corruption and a sense that they are not being listened to, that they are excluded from the governance systems. And we hear this from Nigerians across Nigeria, from the Northeast to the Middle Belt to the Southeast to the Niger Delta. Good governance is not only essential to Nigeria's future stability but also to its economic growth. The two are interconnected. Throughout my career, which has been primarily as an economic officer, I've seen how important governance is to businesses and investors. Good governance means predictable economic policies and transparent and well-functioning judicial systems. And I think Nigerians know how important good governance is for their future prosperity. Polling tells us that Nigerians believe their leader's top priorities should be improving the economy, creating jobs and addressing corruption. Security falls behind those three priorities. Nine in 10 Nigerians believe corruption is a serious problem, but over 60% are optimistic that that can change. The U.S. works to support Nigeria's economic growth at national and state levels. This includes support to small and medium businesses and also efforts to expand the power sector. We are helping Nigeria, excuse me, recover assets stolen under previous regimes and also building the capacity of civil society organizations that audit government expenditures and demand accountability. So in conclusion, I'd like to say that we see good governance as fundamental to sustained, sustainable resolution of conflict throughout Nigeria and fundamental to Nigeria's continuing to flourish as a democracy and an economic powerhouse. We see good governance as the factor that will ensure that the Nigeria of 2050 is one that has achieved its full potential. Thank you very much. If I may take the first question here and because you've raised this question about a somewhat pessimistic view of the current leadership class and think it needs to be changed, but radical changes in leadership classes are not easy to achieve and in democracies like our own here in the U.S., you often elect people and you wonder how they got elected, but they get elected and people can then you devote for them. So I want to turn to you, Professor Jaeger, because you've pointed out something I think is very important and you did too, Kingsley, and Senator. How important are the institutions? How important is it to improve those institutions steadily, the integrity of elections, not only the integrity of elections, but you all mentioned competency, managerial capacity, and you don't have to be a great Democrat or even a great leader if you're a good manager of those things which matter to people. So I wonder, Professor, if you could comment a little bit on how does one bring about change or even improvement in an existing class through institutional development? Thank you very much. There is, I believe, absolutely no doubt that building institutions and strengthening them in terms of their competence and capacity to discharge their core mandates in governance is very, very essential. Because even if you have leaders with all the good intentions, they can't get much done if the institutions are so weak and so fragile and so incompetent and lacking in capacity to drive a process of change. It's not an either or situation, but obviously reforming institutions in fragile democracies, it's one of the most important requirements for sustainability of the democratic transition and also for the emergence of good governance. In terms of how to do it, we shouldn't forget that, for example, in the Nigerian context, and this may apply to many other countries, there was a period in time when the recklessness in governance with the support, I regret to say, of some of the leading global financial institutions has led to the depopulation of the technocratic class either through voluntary exit and a brain drain or through the syndrome of if you can't beat them, join them and by compromising professional competence in the service of mediocratic leadership, and you have a situation in which things have been so bad for so long that the basic professional competence required in a bureaucratic setup really is lacking in many of these countries. So it's a fundamental challenge to begin to revive these institutions, to reform them and through training and better recruitment processes, and a lot of other creative measures of really building them. I believe it's a foundation. Reforming this leadership selection process helps because you need that leadership to provide coordination and direction with the vision to move, but if institutions are not reformed and strengthened, leadership will come with all the good intention and lack the capacity to substantially move forward. So how do you do it? There are no easy solutions, but I always say going back to the basics, it's very, very important. And what is going back to the basics? Understand that there is a deficit in technocratic and bureaucratic competency and even in the organizational setup of a lot of our institutions and they begin to revive that process. Of course driven internally, but with the support. And again, we need to avoid the mistakes of the past because in the past, reforming of institutions driven are great again to say by World Bank for example and the other institutions would mean flying in experts who would come and do this, you know, but there is a lot of local expertise that in partnership can drive these reform processes. So it's very, very important to recognize this and to pay appropriate attention to it. I'll let you comment, but let me add a question to you because you've talked about the fundamental structure of the economy, which you've demonstrated in others is based on basically a venture economy based on oil. And even the states all exist on that kind of thing. So we talked in the first panel about more power in the states. Do the states have the power to do anything about the structure of the economy since they live off that same venture? I'll just add that to whatever I think. I'd like to address the question by coming back to one basic fact. We witness to the economic problems Nigeria is having and has had after 57 years of independence, but we know that Nigeria has the highest, arguably the highest level of human capital in the African continent. Brilliant economists, local, international, they are not lacking. And yet we are where we are. Why? It comes back to the fundamental question of the leadership, the political leadership class and the leadership vision. And that's why I said, and I say it again, the memo is to the citizens, send them into retirement. There is no other way. Now, how do you let's take an example of one institution that I am not exactly unfamiliar with, the central bank of Nigeria. You have today a central bank that has lost completely its independence because it is under a political leadership that obviously this concept is foreign to the instincts of the political leadership and not to allow any institution of the state to be independent of direct political control for the achievement of certain interests, the central bank inclusive. So a member of the Monetary Policy Committee of the central bank has recently written an explosive statement making clear that the central bank is basically piggy banking the government of Nigeria against its own statute. Some of you may have read it. What's happening about this revelation? Your guess is as good as mine. Are some people bothered about it? Your guess is as good as mine. Let us go back to 1999, when Olusegun Obasanjo, there are no perfect leaders anywhere in the world, not in America, not in Europe, certainly not in Nigeria. And so the statement I'm about to make does not necessarily ascribe perfection to Chief Olusegun Obasanjo. But the truth is that so far since our journey from democracy in 1999, he is the only leader in my view who has shown economic vision. It was under his leadership that we established some very important institutions, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, the central bank independence established legally by the legislature. He sent the bill and a number of other institutions. So we had what might have been called the golden age of the economy in terms of economic growth, working of course with Vice President Atikua Pobaka. But ever since then, things have gone downwards. So the point I'm trying to make is that if we don't address this problem at the source, we can talk about it all day long. But it's not going to be addressed because the process that produces leadership in Nigeria is a process that is wired against these goals that we say we have. If a leader feels that his ethnic group has been marginalized for so long, and the reason he is coming to power is to rectify the marginalization of his ethnic group. How can you expect good governance from such a leader? It's not possible. It is simply impossible because equity cannot exist under such a leader because the DNA is pushing something else. It's our turn. It's the winner take all and every ethnic group sees leadership selection in this context. And until we change it and have a leader come up who is Pan-Nigerian, who has technocratic competence, who has a vision, who has a world who knows how to manufacture the consent of the Fisi Paros, disparate 389 ethnic nationalities in Nigeria. We cannot move forward. So to your question, Princeton, can the governors solve the problem? Without a constitutional amendment, some governors will be able to make progress, perhaps aided by some natural endowments. We know that Lagos has made a lot of progress, even under this system. But Lagos has some natural factors aiding it, but without good leadership, without competent technocratic leadership, Lagos would still not have been able to make use of its endowments. Again, you may say what you like about Bola Tinubu, the Jagaban, but he began this process and was able to select a leadership succession cycle that has maintained performance in Lagos at a certain level. So at the end of the day, the leadership is everything and that is why I keep saying the memo is to the citizens. So the states, about 30 states out of 36 states in Nigeria today are not economically viable. They cannot pay salaries. How do you get out of that without restructuring? The strongest argument for restructuring in Nigeria is an economic argument. It's not even all the other things, much as they're important. But just to say that Nigeria under its current constitutional structure, based on a rentier economy, based on oil, a commodity of declining strategic significance cannot rise economically on this model. We must free this federating units, the states and the regions. And I believe in the regional approach because that will give you economies of scale. A lot of the states were created, some would say, don't quote me. Some would say, well, pressure from girlfriends, pressure from relatives, pressure from friends, and yeah, okay, I'll give you a state. But the point is that, so the current state structure, many of those states are actually not viable. So if you devolve, if you have a constitutional devolution of powers, that could help to some degree. And like, I think it was Wysey said, there is some consensus around devolution of powers. But devolution of powers is not restructuring. No, restructuring Nigeria has to go far more beyond that. I believe, this is just my own personal suggestion, that Nigeria has to be based on a regional structure. Because economically, that's how you get economies of scale. In the North, for example, they have massive amounts of solid minerals. Think of what could happen if those solid minerals were not exported raw, so that we don't repeat the sad experience of oil, but they were value added in Northern Nigeria. Think about what could happen in the North. Think about what would happen in the West. The politics, the constitutional issues still come back. Some states can do fairly well with competent governors, but broadly speaking, the structure is weak and cannot sustain an economic rise. I'm going to open it up now after we've got some lively things. Let me start with this gentleman, and then you, and then we'll go on from there. Thank you. My name is Simon Atiba from Simon Atiba News Africa. So many things seem to be right with Nigeria, and we see Nigerian dominating Africa. As someone who was born in Cameroon, I see Nigerian music. I see Nigerian movies. I see so many great things that Nigerians are doing. My question goes to Professor Jigga. What are some of those things that unite Nigerian more? Can you talk to those things that unite Nigerian more than those that divide Nigerian? Thank you. I'm going to take two or three questions. My name is Deirdre Lupin. I'm a longstanding student of Nigeria, I might say, for 45 years, a good part of that time and lived in the country, and I've worked with or in the public and private sectors as well as academia in Nigeria. My memo, Dr. Kingsley, would be not so much to the citizens, but to those very competent managers with vision, of which there are so many, as you pointed out, throughout the country as to why they do not present themselves as leaders so that the people can choose them and make this change that you're looking for. Is there a reason why these folks do not offer themselves for public service? And can that be changed? Okay, let me take a couple more questions. Gentlemen right there. Microphone is coming, sir. My name is Samira Solomon from Creative Associates International. I would like to hear your insight as to an assumption that is widely entertained by international community and many scholars where there is a standing feeling that the states, the 36 and half states in Nigeria have lost their economic independence, or some for a very obvious reason, because resource is usually centralized and it comes from the oil proceeds and they get their share in accordance with the population, the size of the population. And at the same time, as you rightly said, all of us, even the previous panel, vibrant economy, an extremely energetic human resource asset, quite a great deal of natural resources and all that. But at the end of the day, we come to the states why they have lost their economic independence for the simple reason that they are not able even to collect taxes. The World Bank statistics indicates that the percentage contribution of revenues or tax revenue to the GTP in Nigeria is only one percent. Compare this with Botswana, 29 percent. Compare this with Kenya, 23 percent or many more. So how can Nigerians or the six states regain their economic strengths by simply applying one simple tax collection mechanism where they can collect and serve their constituencies? And that's what democracy is all about. I want to get on to travelers. Thank you. I think we've got the question. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to let the answer those three, then I'll pick up those two back there and then we'll probably run out of time. So, Professor Jacob, the first question, I think was to you about what unites Nigeria. Regrettably, a lot of the narrative is about what divides Nigeria rather than what unites Nigeria. So it's good to refocus on those questions of what unites Nigeria. When the question was posed, my neighbor here quickly said football. And no doubt football unites Nigerians, especially when we are competing with Ghana or Cameroons and so on. But I think on a more serious note, I think what unites Nigeria and that we should all be talking about is the resilience of communities and the energy, boundless energy of our youth across the nation and their aspiration for having opportunities to contribute to the development of their communities and their own countries. And unfortunately, because those opportunities are not created and the efforts are diverted and the youth are frustrated by lack of inclusion, lack of employment and capacity building, then obviously they also lose sight of the benefit of that focus and they end up in smaller enclaves and some of these passionate discussions about divisions and so on. So I think it's difficult to be more specific than what I have said, but I think it's a big challenge for us really to think about that question of what unites us as Nigerians and focus on it and move on. For example, when we were youth in universities and growing up, not only were we excited by what role youth can play to transform their countries, which were manifested in some of us wearing a red berets and pretending to be Castro and the Thier Gauvara, but really in terms of saying that look with education and a lot of it funded by state resources, we have the capacity to also add value to the progress and development and transformation in our countries and our deliberate efforts to build what I call bridges across the Niger. At the student union movement levels, you hardly find the tendency we see now where in the universities the prevailing platforms for dialogue and discussions are either ethnic or religious, but you have Pan-Nigerian movements with membership across the Niger, across the divides. And that was a spirit that was driving the youth, patriotism, contribution, changing society for the better and so on and so forth. And unfortunately, a lot of these have been dissipated. Some of the bridges that had been built had been dismantled or destroyed, so it's a serious effort to begin to build that process. But more quickly, I wanted to say something about this point. Yes, obviously the states have resource challenges, but I think the question to ask is why? This thing about 30 out of 36 states not being able to pay salaries, even from the collections of rent from Abuja, you know, it's not that the monies that come to them cannot pay salaries, but it's because of misplacement of priorities by the governors and the other, you know, state agencies in the state. They will rather divert the resources to some other things than to pay salaries and catalyze a process of generating revenues and making progress in society. So frankly, I believe that with good visionary leadership, you know, even under the present context, all the states in Nigeria can be viable, given the resource base. But the scope is there when you begin to arrange the federal system for them to have more resources and therefore to be able to do more in the process of governance. And I tend to ask myself a question when, for example, the point was made about reverting to original structure. And the fundamental question is how are you going to do that? How do you divert to original structure that not only subsumes but also dismantles the states, you know? And we have to ask ourselves as to whether the benefits will outweigh the costs of doing that, you know, very dispassionately, objectively and realistically. You know? So the more I think we interrogate these questions more passionately, the more, for me, it becomes a question of how do you devolve power, resources, and responsibilities from the center to the states? And how do you develop the capacity of the states than to build upon that, you know, and be more viable in terms of leadership and other challenges? Because we shouldn't forget, you know, the process of that management of diversity that has resulted in the creation of this number of states. Clearly we've got a point where creation of more states will be counterproductive. But dismantling already created states, you know? What are the consequences in terms of even that challenge of management of diversity? So we need to really address these questions. I think the challenge is we have 36 states and the federal capital territory, you know, we can create political mechanisms which can say if you can set up a very good constitutional process and there is a referendum and people of one state and another state want to merge and they can go through the constitutional process, then that's inclusive, participatory, and it does not close totally the possibility of summary arrangement, structural rearrangement. You know, that is fine and good, but to just wake up and say go back to the regional structure, forgetting the real reasons that have led us to having this number of states really would be counterproductive. Because as is clear to everybody, there are still also demands, but shufferous demands for creation of more states. You know, so I think we really need to be engaging these questions very realistically. I'm not going to be able to take more questions. I'm sorry, because we have to finish at 1230 sharp. So I'm going to let Kingsley and Sandra have a final word. Let me just make one quick comment, Professor, because there's another way of doing this and we see that sometimes in the United States. States themselves get together and form regional economic. We do it on water in the west where I go. So there's even without constitutional change, if you get leadership at the states, they can form regional economic plans, etc. But Kingsley and Sandra, last couple comments and we'll have to break it. And I apologize too. Yeah, sorry we've run out of time. But so let me just say in response to Professor Jager that I believe, like Princeton said, that we can create regional governments in Nigeria without abolishing the states. And that is one of the options we have to look at. And then allow, as Professor Jager said, a possibility within the regions for restructuring themselves. That is possible. You can have a regional government, state governments, and local governments. It's possible or called the state provinces or something. There's a lot of innovative ways we can do this without abolishing and creating a lot of pain from things that already exist. Rightly or wrongly, but they already exist. So just to say that. Now on what unites Nigerians, quick comment. I believe that our diversity actually unites us. This is one point we fail to appreciate enough that there are many Nigerians who would not really want to live in ethnic enclaves. The diversity, the beauty of Nigeria is its many people and their different ways. When Nigeria was Nigeria, this is what a lot of people enjoyed a lot about it. Now, so that's one uniting factor. And one evidence of this is that we can debate all these political histrionics, but the rate of inter-ethnic marriages in Nigeria is huge. It's huge. So at the political level, it looks as if we're at each other's throats, but our young men and women rather fancy each other. So isn't that a contradiction? I think it is. So diversity is one of our uniting factors, plus of course soccer. Now, to answer very quickly, just one minute, the point about why don't capable people step out to be counted in terms of, I believe that trend is beginning to change. In the past, it wasn't so because people were afraid politics is dirty. People who were professionals often didn't have the type of money to go into politics. I'm not wealthy, so how can I win? But I think a lot of young professional people, we have this build, this thing now called Not Too Young to Run. So in Nigeria, and I think it's encouraging the youth to step up to the leadership plate. And so I believe that we're going to see a new trend probably starting from this election and going into 2023 in which non-traditional politicians begin to step forward, step forward increasingly to take the mantle of political leadership because many of them recognize that only in this lies our salvation. As I said, those who have been at it for the past 40, 50 years, I mean, come on. If you've had a 40, 50 year career in politics, you should retire. Sandra, you have the last word. I will be very brief. I started by my remarks by saying that Nigeria is a country of great potential. And I would just say that the discussions that we've had this morning underscore the diversity but also the dynamism and the great potential that Nigeria has. And I know as the U.S. government, we look forward to continuing to work with our Nigerian partners on a wide range of issues to ensure that Nigeria, to help Nigeria meet its potential. Thank you. I appreciate the panelists. I hope you'll join me in thanking them and for this very lively discussion. Thank you very much. Let me also join Ambassador Lyman in thanking the panelists. The one thing that we have seen this morning aside from a rich, rich discussion with a lot of profound insights is one of the things that I think one or two of the panelists mentioned, and that is the enormous amount of human capital that exists in Nigeria today. And you've seen it on display in both of the panels in terms of the intellectual depth and the profound understanding that they have not only of the issues around Nigeria but how those issues interact with global issues as well. We too here in the United States could learn a few lessons from some of this discussion. Anyway, thank you Paul. We're going to have a hard stop now and we're going to move and I invite all of you to come join us for lunch in the Great Hall. If you come out of this auditorium go to the steps downstairs to the right and underneath you will find lunch boxes and drinks. The seating is free sit where you like. We're going to do all of this in approximately 10 minutes and then we're going to move on to the next part of our program which also involves another rich discussion featuring three distinguished Nigerians, two of whom are a part of the senior working group. The moderator will be our president of USIP Nancy Lindborg. We've got 10 minutes. My discussion is robbed you of one of those minutes so I encourage you to move quickly. Thank you. Good afternoon and welcome to this lunch, this luncheon conversation that will be a continuation of our panel discussions. We hope that all of you have enjoyed this morning's activities. Over the next hour plus the president of the United States Institute of Peace Nancy Lindborg is going to lead a moderated discussion on conflicts and opportunities for peace in Nigeria. She has joined on the stage in that discussion with his eminence Cardinal John Anayakan, the Cardinal Prelate of Nigeria and a man who has spent a great deal of time working on inner faith peace efforts. Also a special guest with us this afternoon is Dr. Obi Ezekwizile who is known in this town as the former vice president of the World Bank for Africa. She is a former minister of minerals at one point minister of education in Nigeria but today known for her leadership in the bring back our girls movement across Nigeria and we're extremely pleased to have her with us. She's not a member of the working group but she is in fact very committed to the work that the working group is doing. Our last speaker here on the podium is Dr. Usman Bujige who is an unofficial member of the working group and he is representing the Sultan of Sokoto but Dr. Bujige is known in Nigeria for having founded the network for justice. He is a former presidential envoy to Sudan and has held a number of senior government positions in Nigeria. I am going to leave those introductions and turn the podium over to our president Nancy Lindbergh. Thank you. Thank you Ambassador Carson and thank you everyone for joining us for this lunch today as we just heard we have three extraordinary very knowledgeable very influential leaders with us from Nigeria today so I'm really honored to be on the stage with the three of you and we were just talking a little bit before lunch so I want to start with the question that we kicked around a little bit and that is you know what do you all see and Colonel John I'm going to start with you what do you see as the the role the influence of religious leaders both as drivers as some of the many conflicts around Nigeria but also the source of resolution and if you could start us off with your reflections on that and we'll ask for everyone to say a few words thank you very much it is not easy to give a sharp answer to this kind of question especially because the concept of religious leaders in Nigeria is quite confusing who is a religious leader it will depend on whoever decides to be so there are some people who are clearly known to be religious leaders if you are a bishop a bishop an imam but there are many most Nigerians are religious and therefore most Nigerian leaders are religious leaders and that's what we have found all the time most many of the governors have become pastors in their in their in their government houses but I think I'm trying to understand what you are saying let us if we talk of let's say professional religious leaders and what is their role with regard to governors it should be clear enough that if indeed religion is for peace and for goodness for honesty for good governance of God's people that is my understanding of what religion should be all about then a religious leader ought to be someone who has something positive to say in this regard who ought to be able to give clear guidance who ought to help political leaders to do their work well whether they will listen to him or not it's not a question because even in our scriptures the the prophet Isaiah's mentioned the situation where you know the prophet is given a message if you deliver it you do your duty if you deliver it and they don't listen to you you have done your part and that is what many do I am not oblivious of the fact that a lot of people who go by the name of religious leaders do have a other agenda different from what I have just described and I think it is not only Nigeria that we have that it is not only today that we have that the whole history of the relationship between religion and power between religious leaders and political power leaders goes way back to the beginning of humanity let me allow others to let if I can go to Dr. Bugache because you specifically not just the role of religious leaders but the role of religion overall and the knowledge of one's religion seems to have a role both in in sparking and resolving these conflicts I know you've had a lot of experience let me just go through it and say linking up with what he said I absolutely agree with what he said and maybe just to say that religious leaders come in different shapes and forms and they are expect from you have those who are really religious honest and they give guidance and that are on the other side charlatans that come in the garb of religion and perpetuate all manners of crimes so we should not like lump them together but I think generally speaking the influence of religion on the society especially our societies is very obvious and many have exploited this influence of religion to do one thing or the other and it's important that we separate the ability of religion to promote goodness good governance and also the ability of people to manipulate religion to do exactly the opposite so I think it is in the clarity that we try to bring to the debate that we can know exactly what needs to be done but a lot of the people those who use religion either to perpetrate violence or to create exclusions or bring about the kind of insurgencies that we have seen are usually people who have got other motives religion here just gives the rhetorics or you know provides the alibi behind which they hide to do what they really want to do so we have to read things you know correctly and I know many people also because they have not done the research you know a lot of violence in history you know and even in our contemporary times you know are blamed on religion but those who have taken time to study they found that of all the violence is a small fraction that you can actually attribute to religion and but because many things are mixed and intertwined you know and not many people care to do the separation a lot of the blame goes but I will end up by saying that religion has the capacity to resolve this crisis but that ability to use it to resolve this crisis is something that we need to work on and maybe when next you come back to me I might give examples specifically on that but I think the the important thing to focus on here is that religion has the capacity to resolve a lot of these conflicts it has in it all the ingredients but then how do we get people to use this capacity to now resolve a lot of the crisis that is out there now it is in this area that I hope to make my next integration we'll we'll definitely come back to that I want to go first to dr obi to talk a bit both cardinal john and and dr bugha jay have alluded to the intersection between faith leaders and government officials and maybe the blending that sometimes goes on it can talk to us about how you've seen that be a positive force be a problematic force how that relationship works I think that the role of religion is something that I sort of situate within the ambit of institutions as a part of what enabled society to organize itself institutions as you know are the moors and the practices and the agreed conducts and the way that the people do their things and so if you looked at institution from that perspective then the role that religion plays is that people would necessarily have certain kinds of values that their religious faith gives to them that it accords them it makes them think in a particular kind of way they hold on to certain fundamental values of life now if there is a universalization of values of you have to be nice to your neighbor love your neighbor as yourself be compassionate be be kind be generous be hospitable those are values that we can all relate to be honest and um you know have integrity now all of these values are so important as the bedrock for building institutions in any society so that institutions are not just the systems and the procedures and the and the instructions but it's also about the values that define them so if we looked at the role that religion has played in our country we would see almost two tracks in it the first track is the track where you've got these people whether i am christian he is muslim there are certain fundamental values that our religion has given to us that we hold there and we can even find some measure of intersection of what we believe in terms of fundamental human values and so we live by that do you know where that is expressed the most amongst the lowest segment of our society if you saw the nigerian in the marketplace they don't care whether you are muslim or you are christian they figure a way to do their businesses together if anyone who lives who has lived in legos would know you go to a place like k2 market it's one of our famous markets in legos you would see the house person you would see the european person you would see the imo person practicing different religions but being able to fundamentally live together and do their businesses so there's a track where they are the universalization of their values enable them to relate well then there's the other track it's the track of the political class that manipulate religion as much as they manipulate ethnicity as much as they manipulate zone and region and all kinds of other ideological or primordial beliefs and the manipulation of that is used as a way of perpetuating inequality between they and the class that when they are not stared into fight can actually collaborate and cooperate so we need to understand this and then use it as a basis for deciding what is it about the conflict in our country that the concept of agreements of some universal values can change and i dare say that we're struggling we're struggling to have the kind of leadership that organizes our thinking process toward shared values a shared vision and therefore a common identity inside these three concepts lie the role of religion either positively or negatively that's a bold vision that you've laid down um i want to go first back to dr bogage and then i'll come to you cardinal john are there examples where you've seen that happened where you've seen the role of religion create that shared understanding those bridges yes there are but that brings me to the point for religion to play these kind of roles effectively in our day and age we need to go back into religion if you like update our understanding of religion because that is the the frenzy around religion but if you look for example i would be more specific here if you take if you have a look at the intellectual history of Islam you will find that there is a point in time when the elements that are dynamic that have this capacity that we need today were dropped and the more retrogressive elements were promoted now we need to go back and pick those debates specifically between the asha right and the more tesla because it is that break that actually robbed religion of its capacity to develop you know ahead of society in fact and it made it to stay behind the social thinking of human societies and you find that it is now an effort by scholars to make sure that the i mean religion tries to catch up with human social thinking advancements so so that needs to be done by scholars who understand i have had my own practical example that i found particularly liberating when this debate about extremism started i started an in-house seminar for family members young people usually undergraduates and postgraduates and one of the things i started by introducing them the religious text i said if you look at the Quran if you take all those verses in the religious text that talk about you know prohibited things talked about worship talked about all the things that we that popularly constitutes islam it does not go beyond five percent of the Quran so what is god talking about in the 95 percent of the text and here you find the real message because 95 percent of the time god is talking about the struggle of the prophets before the prophet Muhammad in their struggle to establish justice in society in other words the message of the Quran in the message of how do you struggle to establish justice in society that is lost because of the obsession with only five percent and by the time you introduce young people to that you can see how liberating that is in their own perspective and understand of the religious text they don't come to the religious text alone in knowing how to pray how to fast how to do the worship you know they come with it as a kind of movement that is how to establish justice in society and this justice of fairness is among humanity not just among muslims and that is how you come across verses that talk about the fact that even if you hate a people even if you hate a people you have a responsibility to be just and fair because god is supervising you i'm making this point to say that religion has that capacity and it is that capacity that we need to unlock unlocking it cannot be done by the frenzy by the charlatans the pose you know as religious leaders or religious scholars there are scholars who have studied the text very well they are still there they may not get the headlines because they don't make provocative statements but these are the ones that we need to encourage and i'm glad to say that there are a group of people who are working towards that you know bringing out issues of human rights bringing out issues of development bringing out issues of environment these are things that are missing in the popular debate about religion but these are things that are you know entrenched in the texts and they are there and they are eternal messages and what we need is to bring out that that will transform the perception of religion and that will inform the faithful that their religion is not just about the things that they are obsessed with at the moment there's a whole world of information of activity that is out there that allows them to relate to the rest of the world to cooperate with the rest of the world to bring about peace to bring about environmental protection to bring about development and this is the kind of perception of religion that we need to promote thank you for that inspiring vision and cardinal john does that is that the opening for the interfaith dialogue you've spent a lot of your time trying to build those bridges between the muslim and christian communities and dr obeis talked about finding the universal values how have you approached this effort and what have you seen has worked well before even anybody talks of interfaith dialogue you must have your own faith first on which you are you are seated convinced and as a christian you know very well that the basics of religion is love of god and love of neighbor because when christ was when christ was what is the greatest of religions it was the basic element of religion is love god love neighbor and the two are actually the same thing actually they are two sides of the same coin and so the basic element of good being good being good to one another love one another and love god and you cannot love god if you don't love one another that is at the bottom of everything and i think that is what what decides what determines what are those elements of our religious beliefs and practices that should be given any amount of importance there's no doubt that there are there are priorities and different levels of importance in religious in religious injunctions and in religious beliefs unfortunately the differences that we have tend to determine very often and even define who we are whereas the things that we have in common are actually the most important our common grounds and here i come now to interfaith work for a long time i have come to that conviction that when we concentrate on seeking and discovering our common grounds we keep discovering more and more certain basic truths certain basic injunctions which is the most important thing and much more important than the specific ones with which we define ourselves and that is how it is possible to to bring together our common values the kind of values that obi was talking about and make that the major element of our concerns when we live in a country like nigeria if it is one point that he actually made is at the common level of the people in the markets even the members of our churches in the pews and so on they are quite clear in their mind they'll tell you this man is a good man whether he's a muslim or a christian how do they arrive at such decisions you see somebody and you know from the way he behaves he's a really good man even before you say he's a good christian he's a good person he's a good woman and this is because we have a certain serious level of series of understanding of what are those important things my feeling therefore is that when we are trying to find out how religion can serve the purpose the positive purpose of peace good governors these are the things we have to concentrate on and by so doing we are putting a position there to work together we have a once we have once we recognize our common values we then are able to work together and to work together also to face our common challenges this is what we have also discovered in nigeria in our efforts at working together by the time we begin to work on common challenges we realize that the country challenges cut across malaria has no muslim version it's always malaria and if you really want to deal with it you have to deal with it just as malaria and so the in fact the joke we had was that the muslim the mosquitoes that bite the muslims on friday in the mosque flies to the church on sunday to bite my people and that's how we all get malaria so once we realize our common in common concerns malaria is easy enough but equally important for example the whole issue of good governance one of the things i have been most disappointed in is that even in the whole area of fight against corruption we have not seen sufficient sufficient coming up of religious leaders together to push this agenda we tried once in a while i remember once called a meeting we managed to call the meeting a bouja of pastors and the imams we came together very interesting discussion got about 50 50 from both sides put together in one room which already was a great achievement but they spent two hours discussing the role of pastors and imams in the war against corruption and we suddenly found that we are talking the same language by the time we left there people were asking for one another's phone numbers and that meant they were started communicating this is just a typical example if we started discussing about whether jesus is god or just a prophet we will still be sitting there fighting because that's not really important for me a catholic that jesus is god is absolutely important but i do know that i cannot start discussion on that basis so these are the issues nigeria everybody has multiple identities even though i'm a cardinal i'm not only a christian i also happen to be a european man and i also have my own political feelings and as a european man i share my urbanness with other people who don't even belong to my church and my political idea may also cut across borders and i think we should be aware of this and that is why we who are the religious field ought not to think that everything is to be settled within the context and bit of religion we do our best the question i keep asking myself how can we turn religion into the asset that it should be instead of a liability to our nation how can we do that and we have a whole range for me i have a whole range of conditions if religion is not to become a problem it must be sincere it must be free the government must respect everybody we must respect one another and all such simple simple simple things that we have to think seriously about otherwise we may then leave the ground field for those whom dr bubagi has described as the charlatans they will take over the they will be the ones whom the newspapers will be talking about because they are making a lot of noise so one of the areas where um one hopes that there's shared a shared understandings is this whole question of hate speech and there's there's an old song in in uh from broadway that says you must be carefully taught to hate so a final question that i'd like to ask dr obi and then we'll open it up for your questions is with there's a rise in hate speech in nigeria where do you see action coming from government leaders from religious leaders you know what what are what are the urgent things that are happening or should be happening i think that um you know earlier we said you must go to the root cause of any situation that that troubles you the hate speech is um is a symptom of deeper issues uh some of the hate space is that some of the hate spaces that we get to hear are emanating from political torsos and the people who are feeling uh that they are the losers as against those who think they are the winners and sometimes the winners acting like losers um then some of the hate speech comes from a sense of feeling excluded so the absence of inclusive leadership can be a driver for hate species some of the hate speech hate species come from the fact that we have not generated enough economic prosperity to give people a stick in the nigerian society and the only way that they can vent their angst at everybody is hate speech now if we identify the different drivers of hate species we would know the hate species being organized in a systematic way by those who want to exploit the political game that those species will bring and then we would i would know how to deal with that then we would look at the issues of really growing our economy because the truth is no matter what religion the nigerian belongs to at that first straight at that first track that i spoke about when they gather to share the booties of corruption they don't ask themselves which god you preach to they simply organized with a common purpose they raise corruption and they practice it that's the elite class now when it comes to the issue of economic benefits nobody at that level worries about the religion when it comes to the problems of inequality the christian woman the muslim woman is at the at behind the curve in terms of their opportunities economically so how do we begin to disrupt the prevalent thinking that you can use and exploit religion as a basis to explain a way why your situation is the way it is when as a matter of fact it's the failure of governance that has consigned many of our citizens whether they be from the north or they be from the east or the west to a place of exclusion and inability to have equality of opportunity to be productive this leads me to an important point of the hate species as it consents right now an ultimatum that was given for the first of october that the people from the east should vacate the northern part of the country that for example would have been a great opportunity for the religious leaders from the south christians from the north christians from the you know christians muslims to get together to sort of say what are you talking about this is nigeria this is the country of every one of us nobody has a right to exclude any other that in that kind of a situation religion would play a good role because majority of the people who are may be waiting for first of october to do anything harmful are not going to do it on the basis of anything other than we heard from those who should know so now those who should know are not reflecting the shared values of society everywhere that you see a problem in nigeria today i say that analytical analytical conversation can change the outcome analytical conversation in the sense that we want to show to people that those primordial things that they are thinking are the drivers of their situation and really not the drivers we have had failed governance of 57 years and this governance has not produced enough to be distributed equitably as much as possible to all people at 61 poverty in our country there is no christian flag to it there's no muslim flag to it we need to change the narrative of our economic production and the way to do it is to really put economics at the center of our conversation at this time on everything about restructuring of any reorganization it has to be how do we make nigeria become an economically prosperous country where people regardless of where they come from regardless of what language they speak can feel a sense that they have a stake in this common entity called nigeria our diversity is the best asset that we have unfortunately those who would love to extract out of nigeria are political class and they are all over the country they are christian they are muslim they are east they are west they are not they are south they don't there is nothing other than an extractive mentality driving the division that they lead and that's what we should disrupt when the last session was discussing the issue of leadership i was saying to myself what we need is disruptive leadership the kind of leadership that simply says we don't care i don't i don't look at you and see you first as anything other than a human being because i see you first as a human being what i would be thinking about is what are the strengths that you have that you would bring into the production of a greater nigeria that is prosperous and that enables people to have equality of opportunity to this to decide what kinds of outcomes they can work hard to achieve thank you for that colonel john and yes i just want to say that the religious leaders were not totally silent on the ultimatum we did try to make some common statements which didn't get as much resonance in the press as the ultimatum itself dr bugazhi did you want to comment on that yeah i think i think the problem is basically it resolves now the government did move into bringing leaders who actually went round and talked to people and i think if you look at the social media on this particular issue there has been a lot of community positive community reaction in kano i've seen young people coming out you know and with the hashtag you know that we're for unity and nobody is going to separate us and that people should feel safe which i think is a very good development but i just want to make a very quick comment on this very important point of how religious leaders can actually help achieve good governance that there is there is a lot of room for that and there is a lot of demand for that and i remember attending a seminar also of religious you know the role of religious leaders in fighting corruption and that needs to be sustained because like many Nigerians here will testify in the last few elections that we have had you will find a governor who has clearly rigged the elections and everybody knows that he has rigged the elections because he's done right in front of so many people it's not something that you need to and the first visitors will be this group of scholars i mean religious leaders in my own part of the country muslim religious leaders will go in a group and pray for this governor that god should help him and i sometimes say okay if they if this prayer ever gets you know answered where are we going to be you know the point i'm making is that they need to and i i i did take on some of them because i brought him a hadith of the prophet that says anybody who took a seat of leadership that he knows he does not actually desire god will be angry with him for the next 40 years his you know his prayers his worship is not going to be accepted and this is a very powerful hadith and most of them said they did not know about it but these are the kind of things that we need to and this is why knowledge is important and a lot of things can be done it can change you know the whole way we look at things but these are the things that are required at the moment and i need to say that massive education massive education is and and i'm not just saying just education but education that is that has quality that has relevance and education that leads to skills and education that has the right messaging because with the right messaging in education we actually will grow Nigerians when we're going to grow people who understand that even our population is an asset for us because then we shift our focus from this oil based economic obsession that has not delivered anything beyond a miserable 2435 GDP per capita for us when a country like singapore that gained independence just about the same time as us are on a fast journey to 60 000 dollars income per capita without even having any form of natural resources i think that when we emphasize the citizens more than we emphasize natural resources suddenly all of these identities will become only important from fusing into a nation of people with a common identity walking toward a common vision driven by shared values and this is why we need curriculum number four and you know i just one final question and that is a lot of conversation is about the fact that Nigeria will become the third largest country it's on the pathway to doing that with this enormous youth population and you've spoken of education the importance of understanding the core tenets of faith how what is the role of religion in reaching out to this growing population this youth population so that you're on the track to the future that dr obé has just articulated as opposed to division further division cardinal john the demographic issue is quite uh is a matter of great concern on the one hand i agree perfectly well with dr obé that we don't have to see human beings as only my ability mouse to feed and all that but they are human beings they are assets they have brains to produce and so on which means our population uh should not get should not be something we should be scared about however these populations must be properly educated otherwise they become indeed a ticking bomb and i am not so sure whether those who rule us right now are reading this sign is this um science of the time as for education is the education is not only religious education if a part of the problem is that the education system in Nigeria has so collapsed that there is not part of the casualties also religious education now how do we how do we recover apart from the few who attend our Sunday schools our our madrasas and so on where you have time to teach something that could happen that many don't even have access to any religious education there's also what kind of religious education are you giving if a part of the problem we are having even with hate speeches is that some religious education actually promote hate speech because we we are not in control of how religious teachers are taught and what are they teaching what are they preaching it's a major issue so i know there are many very expert knowledgeable people out there uh will i'm going to take if i may three questions and then we'll roll them up so let's start one you'd your hand up first two and then three way in the back it's over the first gentleman you could say who you are my name is Simon Ateba from Simon Ateba News Africa one of the biggest problem in Nigeria is tribalism uh how do you think that tribalism can religion can be used to address tribalism because it seems to be so deep that from the Igbo perspective for instance do we see the ultimate term that was given to the Igbo by the AUSAs and ignore the fact that some Igbo youth were trying to secede from Nigeria and from the AUSA perspective do we see the other one the AUSA trying to leave Nigeria so how can we use religion to you know defeat tribal okay uh number two the man in the purple shirt and then number three was yeah back there i am dr donald uh jukun do my things uh we have a crisis presently and i'm so concerned uh while we're here deliberating on peace and unity as we speak right now there's genocide going on in southeast nigeria or biafra land i'm in biafra i am tired of seeing my people being killed over and over again as we speak over 700 people are missing only 60 people are in the prison and the those missing are no cannot be accounted for i want to know what the united states government is doing and i need are we seriously plead for immediate assistance for united nation presence to be in southeast nigeria as we speak they are being obliterated out of the i mean they are being snatched young for their home and taking to unknown destinations so my question to you to the audience to the panelists over the years and currently the nigerian delegates send people to such meetings like this and over the years they have they have mastered their manner regimes and and walked on their decorum and can come here and and then showcase uh they are they are their decency on an international stage like this but then they go home and they turn to monsters so what are you doing to the killing going on right now as we speak in nigeria southeast nigeria biafra land thank you thank you and our third questioner in the back hello my name is day one i'm on research internet the magistrate first of all thank you very much for your very excellent inspiring speech and i was wondering that what are the ideal picture or the steps needed that could reach to the that could make the co that could make the coexistence of the old religions and then could prosper to the the economy prosperity for the nigeria so i believe that what could be the role of i think it would be the efforts of really needed all generation of all regions and what could be their roles to make it make it come on make it come to under the same goal thank you all right tribalism biafra and what are the steps one of the one i will say one of the providential things about religions in nigeria is that often they cut across tribes but by the way almost all nigerians are converts my father was a convert from our uroba religion and most nigerians are probably second generation christians or muslims and therefore if in my church my church in abuja i have people from almost every tribe now i don't know how much this this phenomenon plays also into a tribal cohesion because after they leave the church people still go back to their different tribes but we try our best to make people within the church different depending on in the respect of a world what tribe they belong to to be able to see one another as christians and then ask nigerians as for am i just to talk about biafra all i want to say all i want to say about that issue is that we have made statements at the catholic bishops conference on the matter and a recent recent statement has come out from the bishop of umahia who is on this spot i hope he is not a monster he spoke very clearly about what is happening i think i can understand people who may feel very agitated we are in the same way i'm going back to that country to my in the next few days and we are all alert at whatever is happening i want to say whether i want to make it clear that no nigerian there are many nigerians who are concerned about that issue many of us are and we shall not just be quiet and wait for a whole section of our country to be exterminated those are very strong words coming out but i can understand for the comments yeah so let me start with his um so what do you do uh in order to foster the coexistence i think that a lot of what we said here already addressed that one key point is that the leader of a country must inspire the country to mobilize forces toward a set vision i think that the role of the leader as a source of inspiration is something that we need to work on as a people because if the leader sets the tone then what would happen is that leadership at different levels would read what tone is being set whether they be religious leaders or they be academic leaders or they be uh entrepreneurs or private sector business leaders or community leaders they read that tone and they would accordingly translate and it would speculate at the different levels of leadership basic definition of leadership for me is the capacity to mobilize group resource toward a set objective so we need that we need our leader to rise up in stature of being an inspiration to the entire nation with multiplicity of diversities and to create a business for inclusiveness that sense of inclusion can deal with many of the simmering issues that agitate different parts of the country that's one number two is that the young demographics that you pointed out are actually be turned off religion because of the way that religion is being exploited and that's not proper that's not right i also am the wife of a pastor i see clearly that when children see feel that especially this generation next when they look at religion and they see it as a tool for creating disaffection and division or that religion detaches from the values that it should project they have a problem with it so it means that we need to make an effort to turn religion into an asset and that would come from the way that the leaders of religion reflect the truthfulness of religion and finally on the on the matter of agitations in the south east you know one of the things that is very clear to me is that in a sense of a sense of unity of one country is really fundamental for the greatness of Nigeria when i look at Nigeria i just see a country that pulls itself back simply by not aggregating all of its strengths in every zone every region of Nigeria are incredible strengths that need to be mobilized in the current situation where there was the Nigerian military responding to a situation in the north in the southeast one of the things i said clearly and publicly is that our president must separate any criminality from a punishment as it were of an entire ethnic group that clinical separation is important because if you don't do that as the leader you sow the seed for greater division and that's not what we need now in the years ahead less than 10 years from now oil will have no significance to a to many countries that are moving toward electric cars and all kinds of other solutions now if we don't get our senses right and understand that we would only have ourselves and the oil to drink because nobody is going to buy we will continue to quarrel over things that don't matter because there is a gap in inspirational kind of leadership that says to us our strengths together are greater than the things that divide us the world ahead is the world of blockchain technology internet of things it's the world of simulation science big data it's the world of the robotics it's a world that is totally radically different from the one that we have our children want that world they don't want the one that takes us to all of these primordial instincts that have not enabled us become the great nation that we could be and so i hope that for us when we have these kinds of conversations they create a basis for us to see the things that we can do even at the individual level but most of all leadership that is inclusive leadership that sets the tone leadership that makes religion an asset and the basis for the bedrock of values that we need that exactly is what we should be seeing from the different cascading levels of leadership thank you dr obi did you want to comment on this maybe very quickly because i agree with the points that have been made i just thought for clarity maybe we need to say that we are not representing a general government here we are citizens and we're equally victims you know of some of the failures of this regime so i think people should make it very clear that we are not presenting the Nigerian government so we are not going to defend or join you know in these kind of issues we are basically here as citizens and we are all worried about what is happening we have expressed it some of our colleagues you know who are on the table there have written about it we have done meetings severely that has helped in curtailing some of the consequences that we are seeing so we are quite confident and our questions is very clear of the work that we have done i know the work that the cardinal and the sultan have done in these times of crisis they have a platform they are meeting very soon and they are working on some of this issue that have been raised here so i'm quite confident that we shall eventually overcome but maybe also i should talk to the fact that as citizens and especially informed senior citizens we are all worried about what is happening and it's not that nobody is doing anything there are lots of other efforts that are being done i mean she is heading a whole group doing so many things and what we are discovering in fact is the need for us to and i think the major point that has been made by kingsley in the last panel it all boils down to leadership and what we need is our christians and our muslims and all stakeholders come together from the experiences we have had in the last you know 20 years to see what exactly are the kind of leaders we require to get us out of the woods and this is where we need to bring in all the religions together and by the time they come together and focus on this issue of leadership we'll begin to because a lot of what he said you know the questions are symptoms and we're trying to get to the roots and leadership is key so i think for me we don't even the religious issues that appear to be a problem can easily be resolved once you have the right kind of leadership as far as the religious leadership under his leadership and the sultan a lot has been achieved and we are so happy with their own closeness friendship and continuous contact and working together that's what's going to i'm confident that we shall overcome we're going to take one more quick round of questions um and starting with you sir and then go into the back if we can stage the mics yes um thank you my name is uh kingsley margallow most recently a professor at the fletcher school of law and diplomacy at tofts university and i'm going to ask you to keep it short very short indeed i shall resist the temptation to become another panelist um but i have a very quick one and that's to the two religious leaders one of them represented by dr bagha do you not think that one of the biggest problems we have in nigeria and one of the reasons we have instability a lot is the outsized role of religion in public life i thought we were a secular state but we find in nigeria the intrusion of religion in every aspect of our public life in the constitution in governance in the in the politicization of public holidays in everything and because of that you have a lot of instability because faith is is is is a very very visceral thing and people want their own faith then to be in control if they feel that another faith being in control makes them to lose their rights or to lose their entitlements so so the question of religion in public life i think needs to be addressed yeah okay and final question yes nathan weininger with the 21st century wilberforce initiative um my question is regarding us policymakers and decision makers going into nigeria um and another life i worked on an Ebola project we did a massive training in Ghana and at the end of it we realized that we didn't do anything about religion about funerary rights we had not talked about that at all because we were ignorant of the role of religion in west africa what are westerners who are making decisions ignorant of about the role of religion in nigeria okay esteemed panelists yes yes it has been known to be the preferred position of most christian leaders that the role of religion in the state apparatus should be considerably reduced if possible practically reduced to the minimum and we have also felt that part that would have that would reduce a lot of the interreligious the reasons for religious clashes because it turns out that many of our religious clashes as a result of rivalry over who has more than who and we felt that the easiest way in a country like nigeria where we have many religions the best thing for government is to deal with religion as little as possible but now the problem is that even though we hold that position government continue to insist on uh dragging in religion in one way or the other and before you know where you are people are saying where is our own typical example we always felt that government has no business with pilgrimages well for as long as there are for as long as there are mostly governments that are fully supporting islamic pilgrimages immediately christians give us our own too so we begin to have pilgrimages to jerusalem which many people never thought about that's a typical example of how we are giving ourselves a problem my hope is that if there is indeed going to be a thorough going review of our constitution or not just review new constitution we will take the concept of circularity of state more seriously my sense also is that a citizen's driven constitutional process that would place productivity and competitiveness as the core bedrock of values that drive the way that we are organized in nigeria would begin to place religion and every other thing within the context that they can best function and not be the key drivers on the basis of which we measure and say oh how many christians are there how many muslims are there productivity and competitiveness as core values are important for us it would take care of some of those kinds of challenges of religion being too dominant in the conversation that we have in public life and then secondly for the us policymakers i think that the most significant thing that can happen is to take the lead from the progress that we make in the way that we shape our our own capacity to deliver governance for as long as we do not have capable state if the state remains weak then we're going to need the us policy maker at an aggravated level we don't have to need the us policy maker to come to nigeria to help us deliver services to our citizens i think nigeria has come of age enough for us to have the mechanics for delivering basic services to our people so what does that say to us it says to us that it is urgent for nigeria to work in nigeria that works is the most important thing that i want to talk about in nigeria that functions in nigeria that takes its place and can deliver basic services to the citizens we have three to four million young people joining the unemployment queue every year it's a time bomb we don't have the luxury to gather in washington and have this conversation it's a time bomb so the state the nation state must function everything that we discuss about religion is just a tiny symptom of the fact that we're dealing with a disastrous case of a fragile state situation how do you go from fragility to a strengthened capacity of the nation state to deliver basic services that would lift people out of poverty that's a conversation and so when we talk about restructuring reorganizing nigeria i am one person saying let's have that conversation but let it not be political restructuring that the political class will hijack again let it be economic governance and structure that would enable nigeria become a leading economy in less than a decade i believe that it can be done and it should be done can i just come in i think kinsley has actually hear the answer to his question because kinsley as you know too well the issue of role of religion is a factor of the quality or lack of it as it were for leadership in any case we are free as citizens to decide in our constitution what role we are going to give for religion so let's go into dialogue but i think the religion is becoming if you like so prominent because of the absence of quality leadership we are soon going to go into an election and all of us nigerians know that currently the mechanism for recruitment of leadership within our political parties are faulty and the current political parties that we have including the ruling party i'm part of has become cash and carry and the only people who can emerge out of this are crooks and we know this now this is where we need kinsley we need the cardinal we need the sultan we need all citizens that are really concerned how do we fix that you leadership recruitment mechanism in our political parties that is the major thing once we get the kind of leadership that you described the kind of leadership that she says will get us out of this situation one with vision that can motivate and inspire and has an understanding of the world in the 21st century we are not going to be bothered about the issue that we're bothered now because it is because of the absence of that leadership because we have not been able to solve some of the basic problems people are falling back on religion there is nothing else to fall back on to and this is the problem and i do hope that as citizens we will see the agency of getting the right type of leadership and we have them it's not that we don't have them it's just that they don't have money so all we need to do is to make sure that the system that recruits leadership has been recalibrated such that people with the competence with the capacity with the knowledge with the courage that is required are the ones that are going to imagine it's our own business and citizens to make sure that we do that thank you we unfortunately are out of time but that's a wonderful place to end i think with the call to action from all three of our very distinguished panelists thank you for the wisdom that you've brought to us today thank you for the leadership that each of the three of you are providing thank you for your questions and for being with us here today and please join me in thanking all three Cardinal John Dr. Obey Dr. Bugadje for being here with us today and for everything they do for Nigeria stay with us it's my great pleasure to welcome to the podium acting assistant secretary for the bureau of conflict and stabilization operations the acting assistant secretary Tom Hushik who is an important partner for this effort he's been incredibly supportive um acting assistant secretary Hushik is a career foreign service officer he was most recently the deputy chief of mission at the u.s mission to the international organizations at Vienna he's also served in Dushan Bay Tajikistan in colonial Micronesia and Tom i'm pretty sure i first met you in Pakistan so he uh he has had a chance to serve all over the world and i want to thank you so much for your support and partnership on this important program and please welcome assistant secretary Tom Hushik thank you very much thank you thanks Nancy and um this is one of my favorite projects that we're supporting from the bureau of conflict and stabilization operations so i'm very glad to to be here with you this this afternoon it's always a little worrisome coming right after lunch but i i thought i'd give it a shot anyways and it doesn't sound like um things were getting sleepy after that last panel so that's good um and also i'm sorry to have missed um much of the day's conversations but i did get a good brief and i've been getting some tweets along the way so i have a sense of the discussion so far so um i'm glad to be able to at least deliver some remarks towards the end of your program nigeria nigeria is a critical u.s partner in africa unfortunately it's full potential both for its own people and in partnership with us is held back by a number of conflicts but fortunately nigeria has a deep pool of homegrown expertise many of whom are here today and intellect from which to draw friends from the international community and the energy needed to overcome the obstacles it faces it's our pleasure as partners to help advance nigerians own efforts to surmount their country's challenges supporting efforts like those of the senior working group are the heart of our contribution to this goal and as i mentioned one of my favorite projects that we're working on no country's growth is without challenges of course today's discussions have been a chance to look at some of the challenges nigeria confronts but also a chance to raise our sights towards the opportunities for overcoming them i hope what you discussed here today will help as we build as we pursue a brighter future together too often it's easy to fall into the trap of analyzing what's what's wrong without moving past the diagnosis to find the remedies problem solving requires that we identified identify potential solutions and also practical means to implement them i appreciated the senior working groups august op-ed piece i'm speaking about threats to nigeria stability it said the drivers of these varying conflicts differ in nature but find their remedy in the constitutional responsibility of the state that is the protection of lives and property provision of education in short creating an enabling environment that safeguards the flourishing of citizens and those within its borders so our own research at the bureau of conflict and stabilization operations supports this perspective our analysis shows that countries with above average levels of state sanctioned violence and abuse for example cases where the state is failing its fundamental responsibility to protect its citizens that those states face double the risk of terrorist organizations emerging as a senior working group member noted and i'm sorry i can't remember which one it was peace is not just the absence of conflict what happens when citizens have grievances but no channel through which they feel they will be heard history teaches and data show that people will take matters into their own hands sometimes violently and they resort to desperate actions that they believe are the only options left for redress the feelings about authorities ignoring their needs and suppressing their rights might be based in fact or they might not the impact is the same though because this is a if it's a commonly shared perception in these situations trust and tradition can quickly erode this undermines stability and belies the purported success that we often declare as governments as secretary tillerson my boss pointed out at the community of democracies ministerial he hosted earlier this month governments that uphold democratic principles and practices result in safer healthier more secure and more prosperous societies they listen then speak rather than speaking without listening they build trust these are these are aspirations sometimes the ones we are always trying to to live up to and this is why the upcoming 2019 elections are critical for nigerious continued prosperity and stability elections that are free fair and peaceful will ensure that democratic gains continue to be consolidated that politicians hear the will of the people achieving stability or building a durable peace is fundamentally a political endeavor it requires both immediate and longer-term actions that empower representatives and accountable government institutions as well as civil actors and groups to resolve disputes before they become violent and to quell violence should it break out by showing that they are responsive to people's needs real and perceived leaders build trust and encourage durable peace yet how do we translate these principles into action that's the question as discussed today any effort must be tailored to the local political and security environment some examples from the discussion this week include and this is going from my tweets in my briefing strengthening the responsiveness of state institutions to the wide array of early warning networks that are being built out there addressing perceptions before they become realities such as a perception that herder farmer conflicts are solely christian muslim conflicts increasing transparency and enforcing accountability for those who abuse their positions for personal gain or supporting existing forums like the northern governor's forum to find synergies to tackle causes of conflicts that cross state boundaries many more were mentioned but these are just a sampling with these we all all recognize the need for contextualized implementation plans yet yet well defined and tailored plans will lead to nothing without a key ingredient and that's commitment stated in a meeting earlier this week I think this is a quote piece is the objective but piece is complex it's a simple quote but it tells you a lot no complex challenge the very ones that have been discussed today will be solved without commitment to paraphrase the president's question from last week do we have enough strength and pride to confront the challenges threats and conflicts we face today so that we can enjoy peace and prosperity tomorrow and if we're looking for commitment we need to look no further than our guests of the senior working group they have had distinguished careers in the military and government and education and journalism and as spiritual leaders they and many of their colleagues as civic leaders in Nigeria play a hugely important role in moving towards peace at the center of their efforts is a commitment to see their country be in a better place on a better trajectory to the future I think that is what we all want for our respective countries and for the world what often differentiates efforts leading to success from those leading to failure or not leading to success are the differences between we should we want to and we will on the one hand we can think I want to but we can't do the thing we want because the factors are outside of our control or we think I should do something as some theoretical or intellectual ideal but saying we will requires courage political courage it requires commitment and it requires action when getting to action it's easy to get lost in contextualizing and analyzing the minutiae the details of the plans those are all important steps don't get me wrong and we work on those a lot in my bureau at the State Department but we must get beyond the should to the I want to to the we will so it's important to emphasize an obvious point on that line today's discussions are not the final word on how to advance durable peace in Nigeria durable peace will require constant dialogue around solutions between multiple levels of Nigerian society esteemed leaders such as the senior working group included state governments federal government and other influential Nigerians from business and civil society rather I'm hopeful that the opportunities and options explored today provide a guide for action practical action whether and how to address stability beyond just the provision of security or how to build a peace through strengthened governance or religious dialogue the task remaining is to identify those opportunities and options that Nigerians want implemented the best options are those that both should be implemented and that people want to implement it is at that intersection that commitment forms much has already been done toward that end and much is is still being done I commend those of you gathered here today for your years of dedication to this effort the U.S. partnership with Nigeria also is not one of we should be partners but one that we are partners and that we will be partners moving forward so it's been a pleasure to be here with you even at the end of the day and I look forward to continued collaboration with your working group thank you Tom thank you very much for that closing set of remarks this brings to a conclusion the public portion of our program for this afternoon a special thanks goes out to the Bureau of Conflict and African pardon me conflict and stabilization operations at the Department of State and also for the Bureau of African Affairs this has been a absolutely wonderful program today and this does in fact conclude it and our deliberations with the senior working group will carry on this afternoon and until tomorrow but this does bring to a conclusion the public portions of the program and we like to express our deep appreciation for all of you who have come from outside of the building to be with us this morning thank you