 Hello. Welcome to the Judge Ben Show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court Judge. This is one in a series of programs in which I interview people about issues that concern Vermont and enforcement of its laws. Today my guest is Doug DeSavito, who is now the state's attorney for Grand Isle County. I want to say that some time ago when I was sitting every day I was up in Grand Isle once and then came this young court officer Doug DeSavito and it seems almost in the blink of an eye he became an attorney and now he is the prosecutor for Grand Isle County and does according to all accounts a really very very good job and he's most respected in the community. Doug how long have you been the Grand Isle state's attorney? Six years. Six years? Yeah. My guy tonsil. Time flies and you were a court officer in Grand Isle right? Did I get that right? Yeah from 2006 to 2012 I was the court officer for the courthouse of North Hero. I passed the bar in May of 2011 and left the judiciary in July of 2012 and took a job at a small firm in Burlington and then I was elected state's attorney in November of 2014. Time flies. Well I want to just get right into this business. Have you proposed that some defendants convicted of repeated DUI offenses should have their automobiles confiscated? Yes. And is there a law in the books that makes such a confiscation possible? Yeah there is. The law was passed when Governor Howard Dean was in office and it was sponsored by and supported by many legislators some of which are still in the legislature today and it went into effect in 1999 and up until 2001 they had confiscated about 80 some odd vehicles and I think most of that was the state had hired a one prosecutor to have the budget for that to actually go after these convictions to get the vehicles confiscated and then it just went away. It went away. The law didn't go away but the use of the law sort of faded out. You know I think people aren't aware I know some of the statistics and in the four years prior to this year 63 people were killed in Vermont in accident where people have been driving under the influence of marijuana and I think people aren't aware of that. This year so far there have been 10 reported such cases from the Vermont Agency of Transportation where people were driving under the influence of marijuana and of course the numbers for alcohol are just out of this world. As of November 10th of this year there's been 67 fatalities on Vermont roads and at the same time last year in 2019 there were only 37 and over a 10-year average the 10-year average of fatalities is 53 and so there's a significant spike and I noticed this earlier in the year and I had a gutted it was I was getting several multiple DUI convictions someone DUI 3 DUI 4 and I felt that something needs to be done and so I issued a memo to the Vermont State Police the Department of Fish and Game and the Grand Isle County Sheriff's Department saying I want you to get a little bit more information I want to get the registered vehicle owner that the vet get everything in your affidavit because I'm going to start utilizing these laws and then just about a week after we had a really significant weekend of I think there was like five or six fatalities over that weekend wait in Vermont or Vermont and so then I decided I'm gonna let the press know and so I issued a press release saying that this is what's going to happen in Grand Isle County if you are convicted of driving without a license based on a prior DUI or driving under the influence second third fourth offense the law how the law reads if I can now go ahead the law reads that if you have a conviction of driving with your license suspended on the basis of a DUI conviction and you drive again and get convicted of that another DLS a DLS number two driving with license suspended DLS DLS number two right the state can actually ask the judge to immobilize that vehicle so it gets immobilized they don't forfeit it but it gets immobilized for a period of time I think upwards of 18 months whoa well where is the car they during that time is it in the court parking lot no no we would store that car you store yep and I've talked to the sheriff in the county him and I are constant communication on all things Grand Isle County so the law is is that it can be immobilized the same for a DUI number two driving under the influence second time it can be immobilized if you get convicted of a DUI number three or a DLS number three then the state can ask at the court order that it be forfeited and that's what that's I filed right now I think I have about seven or eight petitions in the Vermont Superior Court Grand Isle unit for immobilization or forfeiture have you ever been successful in forfeiting a vehicle for someone like under the circumstances since I just started doing this several months ago I have not had any of the cases that I filed result in a conviction yet and the mostly because the courts are are not hearing trials right now they're not doing a lot right now so but you know I often think of the Vermont Constitution that guarantees every citizen access to the courts and I know now from from you and from other people that the delays are just they're stretching into years people can wait years for it to get it get a case heard and people you know it I would really encourage more members of the public once the pandemic's over but to actually go to court you know in Grand Isle we have court on Thursdays and I think the public would benefit and justice would benefit if more of the members of the public were watching what's going on in the courtrooms so often like a DLS based on a DUI DLS number two there's this tendency to just minimize the behavior and I always I always argue on the other side that you know this this is this is criminal behavior this is something that's deemed criminal by the Vermont Legislature and I'm not a legislator it's not my job to legislate it's my job to enforce the laws and keep the public safe and if you're driving without a license for a second or third time there's going to be consequences and the same with the driving under the influence which is I think significantly worse because a lot of times the stop the stop of the intoxicated driver is a result of driving over the yellow line a lot of times we get a be on the lookout someone has called the police and said there's this car you know weaving in and out of the lanes almost hit me this is dangerous stuff and I know you used to refer to a case that happened in Grand Isle before my time where I think it was a result of an intoxicated driver and I think the victim ended up dying in the flames actually that was my case yeah in front of me and the intoxicated driver crossed the center line hit a car killing two people a man and his son and it's something that's been with me will be with me the rest of my life I stood I sat in court and the widow of the deceased man and the mother of this child stood before me with tears streaming down her face asking me for help and obviously there was you know this precious little I could do to help her that case eventually wound up with a substantial jail sentence but I think that the you know the common law which still applies in Vermont under our Constitution says that in sentencing someone you're supposed to consider general deterrent specific deterrents rehabilitation and punishment would that be state v. Corliss very good oh my goodness well you passed the bottle more recently than I but yes yes that's the one I use that case do you often yeah and then of course there's a Vermont statute which lays out other criteria the judge is supposed to consider and my point in raising this is that in the typical case you have to consider eight to ten different factors you know and each case is unique to its facts yes so it's not like you could say that do we want always gets this or do we two always gets that you have to consider among other things the person's history you know what's the nature of this offense have they've ever been convicted of it before well I think that that's a great point because I know when you and I were talking earlier about certain questions to ask I know one of the questions was like what is a typical sentence of a DUI one mm-hmm and it really there isn't a typical sentence because it really is based on the facts of the case you know you might have somebody that was just speeding when I say just speeding they're speeding right or they might have a registration at a date that's enough for an officer to pull them over mm-hmm and then they see signs of intoxication mm-hmm and they process them for DUI and maybe the numbers of 0.08 or 0.09 mm-hmm they're compliant with the officer they're cooperative they're not you know obstructing and for that case you know I would consider maybe amending it to a negligent operation or even offering them a deferred sentence I'm saying that if they have no record mm-hmm but there's other cases where they are unruly with the officer it's a high test they've been all over the road mm-hmm they've endangered the life of other drivers on the road we need something a little different mm-hmm so there well you know I think mm-hmm I know when I looked this up before I was they found that 80% of the cases in which someone is charged with DUI one they don't do it again now of course that's that's a good result that means it's been specific deterrents and then each case is different and it may require different consequences but in those cases where there are repeat offenses a DUI 2 a DUI 3 I've seen DUI 5 I have a pending DUI 5 right now a DUI 5 yes I do and that's one of the cases where I filed a petition to forfeit the vehicle what what do you think the consequences of forfeiture will be do you think it'll deter the person from driving more well we're taking the instrumentality away from them yeah not that they can get another car yeah but they do it again we'll come after their car again mm-hmm without question mm-hmm but I think it really does send a message and often the person that's driving the car is not the registered owner of the car the car has a lien on it that makes no difference mm-hmm they have they have I have to make I have to make them aware that I filed the petition they have a right to come in and argue against the forfeiture but I think it's gonna send a loud message to this is the general deterrence general deterrence yes and yeah general for people that maybe think twice about getting behind the wheel knowing that they might not see their car again mm-hmm and also specific deterrence mm-hmm you know every defendant is different and I know I've had you know you you remember certain cases and I also remember certain cases certain defendants mm-hmm and sometimes you'll get somebody that is convicted of a DUI mm-hmm or they've been charged and they're you know gonna change their plea and the steps that they've taken to address the behavior mm-hmm sometimes I see people that just minimize it and some people like take it head-on and I give those people so much credit I've had two different instances where well there's one that in particular where a woman drove under the influence and went off the road and she was she worked at a hospital and lost her job mm-hmm went to Florida for it in you know intensive inpatient treatment for alcohol well came back was so remorseful we had agreed on a plea agreement you know she was gonna plead guilty to this and hearing her in court you know I just I commended her I just said you know I just the state needs to tell you how impressed we are mm-hmm with what you've done and I'm just I'm sure we're never gonna see you again and congratulations and you know you don't always get to say that to a defendant as the prosecutor yeah well having been both a defense counsel and a prosecutor I understand oh my goodness what's the longest sentence you've ever imposed you've ever gotten imposed in Grand Dr. County on a DUI do you recall yes I actually do I know both of the longest sentences I've ever gotten on a case mm-hmm the one I got most recently was a gentleman mm-hmm that was charged with a DUI number four well he was also charged with DUI number four refusal and I'm not sure if the viewers understand what that is no we explain it to him so after you've been convicted once of a DUI mm-hmm the next time you have to submit to a Alka sensor and if you don't you can be charged criminally for that it's called criminal refusal and it's a separate charge and so I charge him with the DUI number four driving over the under the influence and with three prior DUI's count number two DUI number four mm-hmm three priors plus you refused an evidentiary test where the officer had reasonable you know grounds to believe you were operating under the influence mm-hmm he lied to the police and said somebody else was driving and and didn't have a license based on a DUI and he would not take responsibility for that so we went to trial and a jury convicted him and he got two to six years in jail mm-hmm and that's on a DUI so that was I find the way that the courts are imposing sentences in this day and age I felt that that was significant mm-hmm I had asked for much more mm-hmm I can't recall what I asked for but well I you know I I think well these go harking back to the case where the defending killed those two people mm-hmm I think I was I only had that as a status conference before me ultimately was in front of another judge and I think the sentence was six to fifteen and I think it's very difficult to know what the outcome will be with a specific defendant but in terms of the general deterrence argument like the world should know that if you drive drunk and kill people they're going to be very serious consequences and I think there's a value in that and it's hard to it's hard to quantify it but I think it's important that that should happen and the message needs to be sent that we're not going to tolerate this type of behavior the public is too precious and lives are too precious and we're not going to tolerate it and if you're going to put us to the test and want to go to trial we're prepared to put our case on and you know hold offenders accountable period well that's well mm-hmm well what's been the reaction to your proposed course of action positive several well I want to say numerous members of the public in Grand Isle County mm-hmm have reached out to me and supported me I've gotten notes in the mail oh really just thanking me for taking the stand and treating this seriously I've received correspondence from several law enforcement agencies in the county and outside the county both in Franklin and Chittenden counties thanking me for taking this on so I feel that I have this you know public sentiment is everything mm-hmm with it you can do everything without it you can can't really do much I think that was an Abraham Lincoln quote and so the sentiment here is that this is what would they want people to be held accountable mm-hmm we should feel that our roads are going to be safe for us for our loved ones and I want to make do whatever I can to keep our roads safe um I wanted to ask you about your position on cash bail in these cases what do you think should cash bail be imposed in some of these cases that's interesting because this is an issue that's come up very recently and mm-hmm another elected state's attorney has enacted a policy of directing mm-hmm any deputies in that office and the state's attorney to not request cash bail in any case so I and that that was in in in the news and so I wanted to make sure that people knew that we were still going to ask for cash bail I feel cash bail is appropriate in certain circumstances now if you're talking about it a DUI one or two it depends on whether they have a record of non-appearances so what people don't understand what some people don't understand some people do is bail is not to punish or to protect it's to ensure someone's appearance in court and there's been bail reform even in the state of Vermont in nine in 2018 our bail statutes were amended and now the judge actually has to take into consideration someone's financial status which they didn't have to before and there's caps on certain crimes a lot of misdemeanors now have a $200 cap cash bail but I don't support just eliminating cash bail all together and I'll give you an example just so we're clear in this bail is a can a bail condition can be imposed by a judge at the person's arraignment when they first appear in court and then a reply right that's correct okay and they the court can require in some cases that the person put up some money that'll only be returned to them after the case is over and they'll lose the money if they don't show up as ordered that's right that's right okay and what's your experience been with cash bail you know I think there's misinformation out in in the in the public that cash bail is used frequently it is rarely used in my experience mm-hmm it is not something that the the courts issue lightly and so if it's getting imposed there's a reason for it and a lot of times judge it's $200 $500 thousand dollars sometimes they only have to put up 10% you know so it's not what I think the message that's been put to the public is a little bit skewed and I'll give you an example of a case I have right now where I have a defendant I take my glasses off to read who's 37 years old and he's got six felony convictions and 30 misdemeanor convictions so 37 years old six felonies 30 29 misdemeanor 30 now two violations of probation two parole violations and eight failures to appear in court he also had been a fugitive from justice and the state asked for and obtained a $200 bail the state being you yes and because he failed to appear yeah and the court imposed that it was what it was a crime that was capped at $200 and the two hearings after that he showed he had to post the bail mm-hmm and then he he showed for those those those hearings so this message that there's all these other sort of levers the court can use to to ensure people's appearance I'm not sure what they are well do you have any examples of what they might be I don't think there was in one of the news interviews the American Civil Liberties Union was interviewed and said that they agree that cash bail should not be imposed and I think the quote was that there's enough threats from the criminal legal system that we don't need bail and so when I heard that I'm like what are those threats I'm trying to think the only thing I can think of judge is that they get a significant and severe tongue lashing from the sitting judge and say you you better appear next time well if they don't if they don't appear can they be prosecuted for failure to appear well there's violations of conditions of release well and so if they fail to appear yes you can do that but have you ever done that oh yeah and are there any consequences that flow from it well I actually not not significant ones I would think so but I just I feel that bail is appropriate in certain circumstances and I'm not sure what these are the threats are that that people are talking about and and I respect the ACLU I respect any state's attorney in the state of Vermont to have these policies they want to make I just have to do what I feel is appropriate in Grand Isle County and to ensure that public are safe and also the justice system and the court system is respected you know what this is I use this saying when I'm asking for a certain bail and the people aren't showing is like you know you give somebody a citation to appear it's not an invitation to tea this is this is an order you have to come to court and so that's my that's my position basically what you're saying is if people violate the court order there should be consequences yes okay and what are the consequences you've seen imposed I've seen stricter conditions I've seen curfews imposed but that's more for public safety that's really not to ensure appearance you get a condition you must appear in court well under the law you can't impose one judge can impose conditions to protect the public they can impose conditions to protect the public yes but protecting the public is different than ensuring your appearance in court well that's true but but but but that can that can be a basis for imposing a certain condition of course of course but in terms of ensuring your appearance outside a bail you can issue an unsecured appearance bond but that again plays into the the position of others that if they're gonna be treated differently if they don't if they're not wealthy and I understand that argument but I still believe that in some cases a minority of cases cash bail is appropriate and it's based on the person's past behavior their path they have they've created this record well 29 prior convictions for example they've created this record they've have a record of non-appearances the best the best predictor of future behavior oftentimes is past behavior and I think that's the basis for why the legislature has still has bail on the books and so well it's so hard to know because you you know each case being different yeah you're gonna impose the same conditions three times to get three different results yes you know that that's the way it is yeah difficult but again bail you know you got someone who three failures to appear four failures to appear I don't usually ask for that but you get in like six seven eight nine failures to appear on your record think about the resources that are wasted the time the court has set aside for that case the preparation by the state they're most often public defender that comes it's it the resources and the defendant just feels that well I and I think that the example that person's friends and know that he's getting away with it yes that he's not coming to court so it's a lesson to them you can ignore this yeah yeah that's really yeah that's really very difficult it is difficult yes it is now in terms of the the delays in the court system how have they affected your work for example this business about that happened in jury trials for months as I understand is that right that is correct and I think the first one is slated to happen this month down in Wyndham County I don't know which case that's gonna be but when's the last time you had a jury trial in Grandsville County oh my this is this is about I didn't mean to embarrass you has it been months I want I want to say late last year yeah this pandemic started in March so yeah and I have cases right now that are ready for trial but we haven't been given the green light from the judiciary and I and I understand why well why is because there hasn't been any resources given to the court so that they can have a sufficient personnel to do this work is that right but also the health the health risk that they are that they're acknowledging so you mean the jurors have to be six feet apart and all that yeah so if you're drawing a jury you're bringing in 40 50 people in a closed space and it's very difficult to maintain social distancing in that environment as well as the sizes of courthouses in courtrooms I think it could be done right now you have two jury boxes we have two jury boxes we have the pettit jury in the grand jury box and I feel that we could safely and successfully do that if we have people sort of stay in their cars and bring certain people in one by one fill the courtroom up with you know six feet apart and it'll be more time-consuming but do it that way and have a little bit of smaller pool at each time a pool of jurors to choose from and as you strike them bring more people in and I think we could do that successfully there's a lot of plexiglass up in the courthouse now my my table has plexiglass between the defense table the judge has plexiglass you know there's a lot so the jury the judiciary has taken some really good steps so I feel comfortable going into court and but I'd like I I would really like to see the resumption of trial soon are there people who are in jail waiting trial not in Grand Isle County I can't think of anybody that are being held waiting to go to trial so someone's charged with felony assault they're out they're out they're not being held in jail they're out on the street mm-hmm I mean I can think of any number of cases in which that would be very inappropriate yes now again not to alarm the public they're released under certain conditions so when you're saying out on the street well what are the consequences of violation the condition stricter conditions can be imposed you they can be released into the the custody of a responsible adult mm-hmm they have to be with they have to be curfew mm-hmm you know if they're for instance if they're in the Department of Corrections when I say that they're in their custody not that they're in jail mm-hmm and they're violated on furlough or have a violation of probation they can put what's called a scram unit or GPS unit on them and make sure that they're where they're supposed to be but in in certain cases like violation of probation and in certain cases like when you're talking about like a significant assault they can be held without bail so they can be held without bail other people in jail from Grand Isle County who being held without bail now no not that I'm aware of and again have you ever have you ever made that request oh yes and what happens I they were held without bail okay so you've had people held without bail I have had people held without bail it just so happens right now that I don't have I don't have anybody that that meets that criteria but if someone without bail and then it takes months to get a jury trial that person sits in jail for months before they can come to court and and get their rights respected yeah there is one right now that I will be asking to be held without bail who has fled the state so well there's a reason well we will get him back mm-hmm and hold them without bail hopefully so the thing I think often think about in some of these cases where there have been crimes of violence say domestic violence there's a risk that there'll be a repeat if the person is put back on the street mm-hmm and you also have you know victims you know victims are are frightened yes there you know they their position needs to be respected and they have a voice in my office in every state's attorney's office they we have a victim advocate or some offices have more than one and there they are to make sure the victim's voice is heard they are they're kept abreast of of of the progress of the case along the way so well the victim's rights advocates are do you think they're effective yes mine is mm-hmm and once I've come into contact with absolutely do they have an impact on the conditions of release that are said yes oh yeah well that's good and do they stay in touch with the defendant pardon me with the complainant yes yeah so that I think that kind of contacts very important it's very important very important so do you have adequate resources for that I do I'd like to have a little bit more my office is by statute I'm a part-time state's attorney so by statute it says the state's attorneys from Grand Isle County and Essex County shall not serve full-time and so what that means is had if I wanted to practice privately I could but I devote all my time to Grand Isle County and my job as state's attorney so you think in in practice it really is a full-time job yes but they don't have to pay you on a full-time basis correct by statute however I'm like my my admin I have a wonderful admin assistant who works 32 hours a week and I have an add my victim advocate works 20 hours a week I'd like to see more hours I'd like to have a full-time office where our phones are answered you know as all other phones are answered throughout the state at state's attorneys offices but so people call leave a message and then you have to call them back when you're free on those eight hours that I don't have an admin yes so or sometimes I'm in the office when he's not and I'll pick up the phone right now as many people and many Vermonters we're working remotely and so I I am in the office once or twice a week and so is my admin and my victim advocate usually not at the same time but and how has that affected your your job this remote business it's difficult we're making do I actually between March and September I wasn't going into the courthouse I was ever doing everything remotely and that I was asked to do that by the judge since I don't have a client like a public defender or a defense attorney does but I felt that I wasn't at being as effective by appearing on the phone or appearing by Webex so I've started going back and so I'm not doing anything remotely anymore I'm most of I'm not doing remotely but if there's gonna be several parties they've asked me to do it remotely and I will you know honor that request do these delays tend to help the defense sometimes there are witnesses who kind of disappear or don't cooperate because of long delays sometimes but we'll make every effort we can to get to those people but some cases go away because you can't bring in the witnesses anymore because I can't bring a witness in no no but because people don't cooperate with you sometimes yeah you know we're getting a little bit off course of DWI's and DLS's but often is the case your honor in domestic violence cases where you've got a complaining witness a victim who recants or and stops communicating with the state's attorney's office or the victim advocate and that could be problematic well forgive me for changing the subject but it is my show that's right yeah there you go well that's fine I'm happy to talk about it but I just well I I'm very concerned about this stuff you know I the consequences of domestic violence I can be just horrific particularly when it goes on for a long time it affects the children it's it's very very difficult it's my experience I've had several where I had one case in particular where it was the gentleman had a lengthy record quite a lengthy record and I charged him with domestic assault and his attorney filed a motion to dismiss and the victim was in cooperating minimizing the behavior actually recanting and actually creating an alternative set of facts that were not even supported by the dash cam footage and audio that was captured by the officer and we had a hearing and the victim is on the stand testifying and I actually had to ask the judge to stop the hearing because I felt that she needed an attorney because I was worried that she was exposing herself to perjury and she was able to get an attorney the court appointed an attorney for her but I'll eventually the court granted the motion to dismiss and so it wasn't that the state dismissed it but the court dismissed the domestic assault case and that was you know tough because my experience that's more often happens when there are long delays so that the defendant can there was some significant delays in this yes so the defendant can put pressure on the complainant to withdraw her complaint yeah yeah well that was a couple years ago but yeah well I suspect things in that regard haven't changed very much well dug I is there anything else you'd like to tell the world when you got the opportunity here well no I just I really appreciate the invitation I really appreciate in that giving giving me some airtime to talk about what we're doing up in Grand Isle County I'm really proud of the work that I've done and my office has done over the last six years I'm proud of the work that the Grand Isle County Sheriff's Department the Vermont State Police and the Vermont Fish and Game Wardens do up in our neck of the woods in this state and I'm really proud to support all their efforts and also you know my role in keeping the county safe and keeping our roadways safe responding to the needs of victims and also responding to the needs of defendants oftentimes these people need resources and they need mental health treatment alcohol treatment counseling and while I'm the prosecutor you know my job is to make sure that justice is served and if we can help in any way to help those people we'll do it but they're all we just want we want the message to be sent that court orders need to be respected the law needs to be respected and if you are going to commit these crimes if you're going to be a repeat DUI offender or repeat driving with your license suspended because of DUIs you're going to be held accountable there will be consequences and there's a risk that your vehicle is going to be immobilized or forfeited so well Doug I just thank you very much for coming in I think it's very important that people like yourself get an opportunity to speak broadly to the public I'm going to try well I'm going to get a tape of this show and I'm going to send it to a lot of people to take take a look to understand what you're doing great thank you great great and thank you all for looking in this has been a pleasure thank you bye bye