 Good morning gentlemen. Good morning. How you doing? Oh, doing well, doing well. Good, good. How about you Hank? Long time no see. I know it has been. I took a very deliberate two weeks off of everything and needed it to be honest with you. I'd like to hear more about that if you'd be willing to share. Sure. At some point. Hey, Jerry. Hey, Hank, how you doing? Good. I'm good. I don't really know. Is that a goatee? Is that a soul patch? Is it a what? It's not a soul patch. It's a goat patch. Okay, goat patch. All right. Somewhere between a soul patch and a goatee. I hear you. Yeah. I have one too. It's just everywhere. Do you know the story behind this? No, but I'm all ears. Yeah, as Ross Perot so famously said, which may be too old a reference for everybody. No, I got you. Good, good, good. And then in a fit of self-awareness, he went, hey, he got that he was being funny about himself, like a small moment of humanity for Ross Perot. So two days before the election, like the weekend before the election, I hadn't shaved. And on Tuesday election day, I was like, oh, crap, this is going to take a while to sort out. So I decided not to shave until Trump was off stage. And then a couple of days later, he mistakenly or something tweeted, you know, President elect Biden and then oops, I didn't mean that. But then I shaved like all of this off. But I left the full goatee. And then, and then, you know, as events have gone, I've been like whittling down pieces of the beard. So I'm left with left with this and in principle, on inauguration day, the rest of it goes away. Although I'm kind of liking a little bit. I don't know. I don't know. Different. It seems like pandemic is a good time to play with facial hair. So there we are. Yeah, man. Just don't, don't let it define you. Okay, okay. And it turns and I've realized in my life that I look terrible with a full beard. This is not awful. It's not, you know, it's something. It makes you look distinguished. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'll listen a little more closely. And in particular, if I do this, it's like, well, I don't know about that. I think we should, you know, try something different and then everybody must follow the goat beer thing. Happy New Year, buddy. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. We're now in it. Oh, cool. Thanks, Scott. And I just pasted that in just for just for grants, I found that this morning I'd never heard of weird before as the as the acronym for Western educated industrialized rich democratic. And this article, I thought connected to some of your talking about how we, the summary is that they said that we used to be in kin based organizations. So that the Western moved into the nuclear family, because of religious impositions. And what happened was that changed fundamentally the personalities of, of the two groups, and it's actually a really interesting article I thought about how I mean, and where we talk about how you know the the independence and the individualism of typically the US there you know that's where we're when when when ranked, you know we're much more independent on an individual basis. But what was interesting was that the simple example that got me hooked on this was that they had videos of kids. The teacher would would put together a bead string in a certain order of a certain colors, and then they had one child who would put it together exactly correctly. And then the other child matching that what the teacher done, the other child put it together in a different pattern. And they said which child is smarter. And non Western said the ones who did it exactly like the teacher. And when asked why they said well because creative individualists are smarter. And so it was just a fascinating. And I don't know I just think it's a great read on how your culture can fundamentally change your, your thinking. Love that. And then I think a lot of us have been tracking a bunch of things like that a bunch of forces like that for a long time this one sounds really good. Hey Judy Charles. To the book Scott referenced. It's the link in the chat to the book Scott referenced. Yes, it's. It's an article and we should be pasted into the chat because Judy logged on after. Oh, I got it. I got it. Oh, you've got a good perfect. I just got it. Thank you. Excellent. Good morning everyone from morning everyone temporarily at least sunny Minnesota. Today and tomorrow promise to be intriguing days politically. Yes. Yeah, the controversial superior work hypothesis, which seems to bounce up and now all the time. We're going to be steering OGM, several things. Pete and I are involved in a couple different things that are kind of not ready for prime time yet, but will be good about steering and building stuff for OGM, one of which is a directory of who's who and what we're up to and all of that, and collaboration with Vincent. One of which is the freedom is brain initiative, which is turning into an export of my brain that we will be able to let people play with. And we're busy right now figuring out okay what what do we say, how do we explain this like we'll we'll need an explainer video for for people coming in, and then and all of that so that that should be ready. I think in a week or so. We should probably be ready to to have a broader OGM call that says hey, here's some assets here's some stuff to do. And here's where we're going so that's pretty, that's pretty fun. And the thing that I'm thinking is a good moment to do is not so specific about projects and all that I think I think it's maybe a good moment to have a, an after action review of last year in terms of structure and direction. I don't know if everybody else would be up to that but but I think I think a really nice use of our time would be sort of sitting down and kind of honestly looking at what OGM is and could be Pete. I, I, I like that. I'd also like us to reflect a tiny bit on on our communication tools and platforms. Cool, which I think is part of an assessment of where we are, Charles. I just put a plug in for for something on roles touching on roles, probably also guilds and with the reference to your posted video. Lauren I think is expected and we can chime in at least just just briefly just to update because there's a bunch of stuff. And I apologize that I haven't had a chance to look at what you posted to the matter most but it looks super intriguing and I'm sorry I wasn't on yesterday's calls yesterday I couldn't. That's cool. That's why we wrap and keep the arms open. Awesome. Do you prefer us to be in matter most or chat today. Yeah, matter most. Let's try to chat in matter most, although Peter's taking good notes and the so the way it works is somebody in authority, or somebody who's leading the call should say, let's not use any zoom chat. So the thing isn't where should we be it's where shouldn't we be. Where should we be for this instance, because because we can chat in the chat here and then copy pasted into the matter most, but that doesn't really work well because Pete's head is nodding left and right. If you want people in matter most you have to say please close your zoom chat, and then you'll have more room to see people which is the thing that you want. Yeah, everybody here on matter most. Good. Good. Okay, I'm closing my zoom chat painful those may it may seem. It's a new year and new era, my zoom chat. Ah, God, I don't know how to do that. Okay, which means I should probably make this window smaller. I don't now I don't know how to chat and see everybody at the same time. So this is awkward, but there we are. More or less the same screen real estate. Can you, are you going to paste what was in the other chat into matter most. Yes, I will. Great. Thanks, Pete. Cool. Okay, no side note. Sorry, Judy, go ahead. I just want to confirm CSC Agora is the right matter most. Yes. Yes. Like you have more than that. And there's a channel and there's a channel in their name steering steering Tuesdays. Oh, and I was sitting in town square. You want to be in steering Tuesday. I just moved. So this could be hearsay but I checked again on my, my laptop crashing situation and it looks like there's a solution but I haven't tried it yet. So, whatever. We'll see. Sending you laptop mojo. I had a moment of total panic yesterday because my main workbook pro computer was totally black and had no charge. And I plugged in it made sure the connections were okay and it didn't seem to be recharging very fast so it must have been really great but it came back thankfully, but I'm going to have to find a better system. So the last things I managed to do before lockdown, luckily, a colleague noticed that my keyboard was bowed on my on my iPad. So iPad no on my MacBook Pro, it's an older MacBook Pro, and it wasn't quite it wasn't quite closing it would there would be like a little gap and I closed and so forth. And I looked it up and it's like holy crap the battery is like starting to expand explode yeah. So I literally went into Apple and wait way past warranty but it didn't cost that much. They replaced that they're also replaced the keyboard I think at the time, and I got it back right as locked down happened, meaning it was sort of the last day to sort of walk in and pick up a device after that the door was closed it was amazing timing. Yeah, I think I didn't know how terrifying it was because I didn't realize that 42 weeks later, we'd be still hanging out here in lockdown, even though stores are more, more or less open but I think Apple stores are closed again now. I don't know if it will be less than some states I think. Yeah. And everybody's having a bad time. I'm a fan of sumo wrestling for some crazy reason and how cool, who is the top your cousin, the top sumo wrestler in the world has tested positive for covid. And you can only imagine who all he's been practicing with and how that all crazy stuff. I had a meeting Thursday with the science nonprofit that I work with on a national level, and the woman who's co chairing this committee with me, texted and said sorry I was out of touch I was taking page her daughter for covid testing, hoping for the best. And then when I texted back and said do you still want to chat tonight or whatever it was. No that's tomorrow I have a runny nose, hoping. Uh oh. Yeah, thinking okay so now I'm going to end up be chair of the committee, she won't be able to come on, which is a minor thing but I'm worried for her and her family and how, however many other people she may have had contact with. And I'm just thinking is this the new strain the new Pete does this feel like a run through the population I mean, it feels like it's more reach. Yeah, it's going to be huge. It's super scary. A lot more asymptomatic transmission. Yeah, and more cases means more deaths. So somebody who just did a very simple mathematical model. And so I even hesitate to say it but he's like okay so if you just do the math after like two months is five five times as many deaths with a new new strain, compared to the old strain. It's bad news, but we are getting better at keeping people from dying once they get covid. Isn't the mortality rate going down only slightly. Yeah, probably, but the real the real headline is we can't we can't figure out how to stop the infection in the US. We just, you know, we're not culturally not able to so not the only ones, but it's not the Western world. Well, I just think the other really serious thing that they're not talking about because it's too scary is that beds are out there out of beds in hospitals, just about everywhere. And so now oxygen in LA, they're rushing oxygen and all of those things and so there's going to be a cascade of failure in the medical delivery system that is going to be shocking and really sad, because they just they can't deal with that many people, and all of the individuals who are being cavalier are wasted in a sense, because they're such a large segment of the population that I don't know it's just frustrating. They were warned. It's really sad. It's very scary and very sad. I mean, it was wonderful to have my daughter here for the holidays. We could only do it safety because she works in a medical research institute. She's tested weekly for covid and she had already had two negative tests after returning from seeing for the first time her partner who's in California and seen him since February. They were sequestered there, and she was super careful with all of precautions, but she had to have a couple negative tests before she would come here because I'm her elderly mother. And I'm fine so far. We're all fine. But I'm being more stringent than just about anybody I know. And having us a bit of a background in science and all probably helps with that. Yeah, it does. I mean it's, but it's also very restrictive and I'm getting pretty custom to zoom. And it works reasonably well it doesn't pick up all the warmth and tone of people in the same way that you would if you're sitting across the table from them even at six feet. Yep. And if it doesn't reach me through the computer. But it's just, I'm really worried about the crashing of the medical care system. Because I think that's going to happen and that's going to create a lot of craziness in the US where people are used to having a fairly unassailable medical care system. Scott and Charles. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, Scott and Charles. I had heard, you know, some opinions that said, look, we're all just going to get this. And that's just eventually that's just how it's going to go. And that's been something I've been trying to struggle with is this idea that can you really like push it off just by staying away or is it just a fact that this is going to ripple through and eventually over the course of years, this is going to this is going to get get to everyone with varying results. And I don't know. It's just a thought I don't have any basis for that. Charles then Pete. I wasn't raising my hand, but since I'm on. I think we could, we could easily spend, you know, the whole year talking about all this stuff. But what about OGM and steering and do we want to just sort of get into gear. Pete last word on that. I wanted to respond to Scott saying that the trick is, we can get vaccinated before everybody gets it. Right. It'll become endemic in the in the future years, you know, everyone's either going to be everyone's going to be immune more or less, you'll either get COVID or hopefully you'll get a vaccine. The main thing that we're trying to do is to keep everybody from getting COVID in the next six months, which, you know, if that happens, like the deaths are like 10x or 20x or something. What they should be because, you know, you can't go to the hospital. You can go to the hospital even if you don't have COVID. You know, if you break a leg or if you have a heart attack or, you know, so it's going to become endemic. And we're going to live with it forever, but it's, it's like people say, like some people say it's, you know, in the scope grand scope of things, it's not a horrible disease. And thank God for that because otherwise we'd be totally screwed. But, but it's horrible if we're, if nobody has it, then everybody has it all at once. So that's what we're trying to avoid. Okay, let's take a little breather and turn to our little, our little fledgling organization. I will just add. You know, Pico lab has done and we're kind of coming around at some point sooner than later to focusing more on this stuff. Corona wisdom being the broader container. Coronavation being a project that we did sort of been dormant sitting off back back burner. So, cool. I've got to get a bigger screen or something like that, flipping back and forth is hard on me in particular because I'm trying to catch body language as I as I take notes and stuff like that so I got to figure that out. I'd be interested maybe in starting a reflection with maybe Pete on our platforms and Charles, if you wouldn't mind reporting in on what you've just been talking about on roles and all that from a kind of a retrospective critique perspective. I think those would be useful and then and then I'd like to go and just sort of say what I, you know, where I think the state of the state of us is. So, Pete, if you want to start. Yeah, sure. Communications. It's funny, I'm not sure that, well, I've got a bias view of this, which so that's fine. So I acknowledge my bias and in kind of trying to push us into uncomfortable but I think more productive communication modes. The forum forum, I think has been going along pretty well. And we had the start of a forum facilitation team. A few people were interested in doing that at the end of last year. Jerry, I think you're going to kind of pick that up this year and get a little bit more done. The forum has been I think it's been successful. It's still kind of low volume it's still kind of hard to use. It's not organized as well as it should be. It needs, it needs a firm but light touch kind of to keep it, you know, kind of within the guardrails and pruned up and things like that. There's the good news is the tool helps you with a lot of that but the other news is that somebody actually has to do some work to keep it kind of going forward. So Jerry's got some ideas, the forum facilitation team has got some ideas. So nothing, not a lot of big progress there yet, but we'll see it soon. I think Mattermost is working really well. It's, I think everybody in our local Federation neighborhood kind of needs to grow into the ideas of what these different organizations do and how they're different and what the membranes look like and when it's not a membrane or it's a membrane easy to cross and when it's, you know, a little bit more firm. So some of the organizations involved OGM, Kiko Lab and CSC right now all have very permissive, you know, membership structure and very open and we kind of just float slash back and forth, which is great is working great. When we're a little bit more scale will probably have to start having a little bit more understanding of, you know what it is to be this or to be that or to be both things together. Mattermost I think has been mostly success. It's still kind of low volume, but people are picking it up and it's easy enough to use the mailing list has kind of gone up and down. We, you know, we were really hard. We were all in it, and then we kind of move started moving some stuff over to OGM forum and that's been reasonably successful. We've had to have some discussions on the mailing list about, let's not use it as much. Let's try to move over to the forum. We've had some really productive discussions in the last couple weeks. I think part of that is that we're not trying to have too many discussions at once. The mailing list gets clogged super fast. So it feels to me like we're still kind of in the early stages. We're still trying to get our acts together. It's great to see this team say let's just close the Zoom chat and move over to Mattermost. I think we'll grow into that more and more as we as we continue. Quick technical kind of thing. Actually, both systems need system upgrades, not desperately right now, but I'm the guy who runs the back end of discourse and Mattermost. And I'm going to need to take them down maybe this weekend or something like that for half an hour each and get them back up. I have a 0.1% chance that everything's going to go haywire and it's going to be down. Something will be down for two days and that strikes fear in my heart and stuff like that. Not that I'm going to communicate that to everybody. It's going to be like every team thing. It's going to be down for half an hour. I'll be back up. No big deal. That's almost certainly what's going to happen. But I have to get mentally prepped and also technically prepped to make sure that we recover well from that. It's not like a slack outage nationwide. The slack outage makes me feel a lot better at this point. It makes you feel better for my forgiveness in advance. Thank you. I appreciate it. Jerry might talk more or might not about another set of affiliated organizations that is interested in communication infrastructure for its Federation of Stuff. We're talking with them about Mattermost and they're deciding between Mattermost and Slack. And because they've got some existing Slack usage, it might actually make more sense for them to use Slack. But at least we're in conversation with them and helping them think through stuff and that process will help us think through stuff better. And also, that's an interesting thing to fold in of the organization is Lionsburg and the fellow is Jordan, who is attracting a constellation of different entities kind of like us, but different from us but smaller orgs that are all interested in the the Stuart ownership model. And this is not retrospective it's more prospective but what the decisions we make on infrastructure and all that have broader repercussions because I think we could look forward. Yay, Lauren. I'm looking forward maybe in a couple months to actually having these platforms live or be populated with many more orgs and many more humans doing things and so the idea of how this scales and how we sit or stay in touch through the connections really matters. Second small thing. I was just trying to figure out what to do about my matter most and I found a little button that says tile matter most to right side of screen. And I press that button, and I got an iPad style half screen thing where I now have chat eating up the full right side of my screen but there's a little bar so I can make it larger or smaller. And I have all of our gallery view on the left. And this is perfect. Look around and goof with it but I can now see everybody and take notes in the matter most instead of the chat. And this is actually like this little I would do to improve this layout this is actually really quite good. But I just get us just what I put in there I'm doing the same thing on a desktop computer where I close my chat window and just put my new matter most browser window in the exact same spot, same size and it feels like I'm typing in the chat. It's, I love it. Which button did you click to get the matter most in the chat mode. It's not positive can someone find it and describe it because I don't want to hit undo here. If you, if you just make the matter most window narrower. It drops off all the channel stuff and puts it in a little three bar menu. Yes, but this actually was a little command it said tile left tile right and go for the windows and the tiling actually made my chat fit perfectly. I'm going to mess with with zoom it's actually lovely on the left, and we're all and I'm full screen on both right now and I don't and I'm afraid to go to browser and see what happens. Operating system I am back I'm on Mac OS latest draft. Actually, I haven't upgraded the OS to the most recent because there were controversies about it. So, anyway, it's working fine. So I just wanted to report that. I use a different tool, but real quick before we leave communications if I could talk about something that's adjacent now that I can't see my zoom. We've also got, even with the folks on this call, we're starting to get more air table usage for various things. Air table is going to be underneath the directory stuff that Jerry and Vincent and I are working on. We're also starting to use it kind of early early days of using it for various kinds of project management internal project management but I think it would, it would be who've I'm maybe that's the wrong way to put it but it would be it wouldn't be a bad thing if OGM started using air table more and did more internal mentoring with their table, which I'm totally down for. So, and especially for one of those things can be both managing a portfolio of projects and then also managing tasks for any one project. So it doesn't have to be air table but it's a good, it's a good thing for a lot. Hank, does collective next use air table or Kota or something like that. No, so we actually use Miro for a lot of our like project management type stuff. And I think some of that comes from just a penchant for more visually appealing presentations of things. Just, you know, and again, not to not to drive this nail to too deep into the wood here but you know some of it is just trying to keep our own, you know, in our 30 personal organization our tool ecosystem pretty light. So we're just kind of trying to use, you know, one thing for as many things as we can. Personally, I've used air table first for for some things and I like it a lot. So, you know, I'm excited to see it used here but yeah from a from an organizational perspective it's it's not something that that we've jumped on. Cool. So we'll be we'll be using it and seeing it more I think, in several different ways. And so we're not done with retrospective on communication tools I mean I would love to hear other people's reflections on our platforms. I'm I'm pretty comfortable with matter most and I like the structure support but it isn't an overwhelming volume yet. I really don't feel like I have my arms around discourse, like every time I dip in I feel like I'm barely like ladling water out of the river. I feel like there's like, like the Amazon River is right there and I'm afraid to dip in further because I don't I don't have my, I don't have a routine where I know I've covered what's in the discourse forum and that's my fault for not having spent enough time in there and really could work through it, but also my MO when I hit things that require thoughtful replies is to slow down. And that makes doing things harder because there's important questions being asked there and so forth. There are questions that probably ought to be in the discourse forum or being asked on the mailing list right now. And those require thoughtful replies so harm jitters put three or four things on the mailing list that that I'm like, oh, okay, this it's really important I handle this well we handle this well, because there's a bunch of sort of anti backs kind of stuff you know lurking around here. And how OGM works with that is really important, like a piece of who we are and what we do is about bridging those conversations and having those conversations. So I'm a little stuck there and I should have maybe sort of asked for help in some way but I don't actually know how to ask for help around that issue in what we're doing so I so I kind of answered parmigets one message by by by opening the issue a little bit. I don't need to go back into that but I would love to, I would love to shepherd those conversations probably into a discourse forum that is for that topic. That way it doesn't clutter the list. That way it's not you know in our faces everywhere else but we can we can put we're welcoming to it, and we say hey, those kinds of questions we put over here. And I think once it's fenced a little bit we can then sort of dedicate our attention to it more appropriately Scott. I'm, I generally have a model like tank where I limit trying to limit the number of tools, but I'm also trying to follow Pete suggestion to say let's use the tools that we've chosen. So, I have found no issues using the tools. The challenge for me is remembering to go to them. That's actually the thing that once I'm in matter most or discourse I. Okay, I understand what I'm doing here I understand how to find things and move around and connect all that. But what I don't do is remember. Oh, you know what I need to go check telegram to see if Charles and Lauren said anything I need to check because I'm not one who likes to have all of my notifications. They're coming at me, just because there's too many. So I prefer to go in and look, but then I don't. The more tools I have the more chance that I can forget to look there. Exactly. And I usually turn off desktop notifications so I don't have things flicking on the upper side of the screen all the time etc etc etc. Judy go ahead. I'm doing because I'm kind of like Scott I'm willing to learn all the new tools and it's kind of exciting, but keeping them all straight, and getting the right notifications is challenging and you don't get notifications for some of them. I wonder if it would be feasible for us to have a communication hub, where the center point is the hub and there's folks and they go to the different there's a direct link to the latest version of the various forums that we're using. That could be an OGM landing page, where then you can choose to go to discourse or matter most or mirror or whatever, and, and follow what's there. So the simplest version of something like that that could work is something I was working on on the revamp of the open global mind.com website, which was a Google Doc with the current status of where we what tools are we using and how do you get on them where just having a page of that would I think be helpful. That's I don't think that's anywhere near having a communication hub where you know you've what you've got got notification from whatever's going on that's a different matter all together, but we don't even have a place to send people that says, hey, here's the full panoply of things that were that we're using and here's how to you know what we've put where I was, maybe I'm oversimplifying to the difficult, but I was hoping that there was a way to have an OGM landing page, which then allows you to go to it could have with the direct link. So you don't really once you once you loaded it to your machine, you don't need to remember here's how I get to mirror here's how I get to these other places. So just click on that box, and you're in at the latest point of entry and if you want to back up or maybe there's a sub web in there where you can go to education, finance, community outreach, whatever our, our projects or tasks are initiatives maybe is a better word because I think you're going to keep going. I think I'm not muted right. Yes, we can hear you. We've had in a couple places we've had people talking about two related things for me. One of them is just a just a homepage, more of a homepage during my proposal would actually be I think there's a few people who would be good homepage maintainers. So what I'd like to suggest is actually popping it out of Google sites and moving it into. I'm going to say a bunch of tech gobbledygook I apologize. Moving it into a static site generator that a few people can maintain easily. Where lives. Which which part. Well, so it was a formal link to it. I think it should be, you know, open global mind calm. So, so hand over open global mind calm to a small team of homepage homepage maintainers is my suggestion. And then put things like the communication hub there. The other thing to put there is the onboarding stuff. Another thing that's been bubbling along that we get regular suggestions about is the onboarding process. Right now the way that we're OGM is set up. You can get into the matter most and then be doing OGM stuff without being an OGM member more or less. You can kind of do that with the forum. And then there are people conversely who get into the mailing list who never get on boarded into the forum or matter most with, you know, any regularity. I just Stephen Kruzer, one of our blessed friends in the in our Federation just this morning said yo Pete, new, new guy came in. I shot him my list of sister organizations that OGM has because that's one of the things that you want when you join OGM. And I hope that was okay. And I'm like, this step on, you know, go for it. But his point was, you know, maybe we could systematize that instead of hoping that Stefan is the person who, you know, who happens to help this person. And my hope is that air table actually becomes a piece of that. I mean, that should live in air table that should easily live in air table. So two suggestions. One of them is to hand over the keys to open global mind calm. And another suggestion is to have have have a another committee project quest, whatever that works on onboarding process. Can you just do a quick recap of your tools, Pete the ones that your, your favorite tools for what we want to use, not not explaining them just so I make sure my list is complete. Sure. Let me let me interrupt myself by saying that. No, actually, let me let me not do that. All we have are the mailing list matter most and the forum right now. We also have some day we'll have. Well, we also have a Google group and that's the mailing list. Okay, sorry. We have Google sites for the website which we're not using very much as just sort of an outside face we have a couple of things going on. We have air table is going to be the enabler. There is a LinkedIn group we I don't even count that because I started it but nobody's ever really posted much there so I still consider there's potential there. I have Twitter and all that kind of stuff. LinkedIn, I created an open global mind a group in LinkedIn so there's a place there. And the idea was that if we talked in public on LinkedIn we would easily attract a lot more people. And that's true. There are also private groups, we could do that. But I would think that being in LinkedIn it would be really, really, really great to have open conversations there because we find a whole lot of people attracted to what we're talking about, I think. It's a great idea. To Judy's air table point, we won't everybody. Well, lots of people should have fun with their table because it's a super fun tool. The way that we'll do that for most people or the group is we'll say we'll have a directory. We have a directory of people in projects. We have, you know, other directories of stuff sister sister organizations, and those a lot of those will be tied in air table. Some of them will actually be Vincent and I are already working on magic to make it so you don't see the air table part you just see a forum and a web page. So will matter most replace discourse or matter most and discourse or complimentary. And if you pick one it should be matter most. And if you want to have deeper richer conversations you should pick discourse. No I want to do both. And matter most is collective sense commons, not GM per se. Yes, both an important point and hopefully an unimportant point. Yeah, but they're not equivalent. It's my point. Yeah. Yeah, because they CSC is sort of the hosting entity and over time there should be channels from Lyonsburg there should be channel from other partner, other partner organizations, etc. So as we wander up and down the chat, it can sort of change between organizations that you're communicating with let's see that feels like we're where that's headed. You know, since you mentioned that I'd like to jump in and mention that there are a handful a small handful now of key collab channels. And not to get into it now I think we have other things to cover. I'm thinking out loud it's going to be more for the forum for discourse to build out topic areas or I don't know how to term them but for the corona wisdom that I mentioned earlier for example which is not specifically key collab thing that's a real bridge area for GM and key collab for example. Like you mentioned the Lyonsburg for example coming in and maybe having some channels then like with the way that the channel menu architecture is set up on matter most. I don't know at what point it'll start to get cluttered with and chaotic, you know quickly. So, it's just what's that relatively soon it feels like. I know and so I don't so then I'm not sure that matter most is really set up for that properly what we're talking about or what do you think Pete is a quick answer. So I feel the opposite way I feel like it's not going to get overwhelmed for literally like a year. I hope that it does in the next couple months I would love that that I think the really short answer is even on this server. There's something called teams right now we're all in a Gora. But it would be easy and and also caution flag warning let's think about this before we do it it would be easy to set up. For instance, a key collab team and an OGM team. Okay, got it. Next the next stage and level. Yeah, I think it's something to approach with caution and and I have more of a. My horse in this race is actually for this particular thing is it's the tech more than the sociality but I hope there are people who start to think about the sociality of of CSC or a commons or the federation that we're all in or the OGM's key collab partnership or whatever, but the sociality of that says that the better, you know, the more that we're even like right now we have channels that are, you know, that we can easily bump into each other but they're also separated. It's a magic of virtual space right it's like where you can be in the key collab community center and the OGM community center and it turns out they're actually also the same thing and, you know, you can think either way and that's it that's a good thing so the more that we say okay let's actually forcibly separate things, you know it's going to lead to channel confusion stuff like that I think the main thing. Yeah, thank you. I actually agree and I like that. Maybe last thing on this for now is it just comes back to the likely soon potential cluttering and sort of chaotic overwhelm of the channel menu itself and so how to keep that kind of tidy enough consistent labeling and so forth I think that's that's going to be really key to making that work. So what is worth I've, I went through this with frontline foods early last year. It was a dynamic organization with 900 people running all through Slack. We had probably 100 channels or something like that. And the marketing team didn't didn't know or care that there was also a tech team and they didn't know or care that there was also an ops team. So it worked out pretty well with the slack and with matter most so the key to that actually was one genius who was an ex slack person, and she did an amazing job of. And it's funny, it was really hard to even tell what she was doing because it was so subtle, you know and so like, Oh, of course, it works that way. You know, she kept all the noise down to not even a dull roar, like you didn't notice it was, you know, it was noise it was just perfect so I think we can do that. I don't think it needs genius level stuff, even though I might ask her for help. So I met a comment here. So we're busy exploring the future of collaboration and curation that's part of what we're doing as a GM. And what I mean by the future of collaboration is part of the reason lines Berg and the constellation of companies and Chico lab and us and CSC is that we think we think and here I'm using a general we assuming that most of us sort of feel this way. There's a new way for companies to work together and for people to federate into companies that isn't monolithic corporations with private IP and their own data centers, each sort of competing or whatever in a traditional market but rather these sort of federations of organizations and individuals working across them with portfolio careers who are busy, creating shared assets, etc, etc. So there's that layer of collaboration at the communication level. And then here we are in a pandemic and the best resource sharing tools appear to be Google Sheets and Google Docs. And I think like there's an insane number of really good sort of people who've done who've used very primitive tools to try to share information out, and we're still, and we're sort of now kind of moving into okay we're going to use air table and try to figure this out. We're in a way primitive state somehow for the shared curation of what we know, and how we remember it and where it is. And for me, I'm just really frustrated how primitive this all still feels, and how chaotic it all still feels at both levels at the, at the community and conversation level. And at the, where did I put this and where does it belong and how do we share it out level. I'm just really like kind of mine. I'm, I'm, I'm, what's the word gobsmacked is the good British word for this that is still at that kind of state. And isn't it beautiful, we can be at the cutting edge. Well, that's what it feels, that's what it feels like we're doing which is awesome and I love that, but we're way deep into this revolution and it's still this like chaotic and messy and in co eight. And I think, I think five years from now we'll be using a tool suite that feels different and is considerably different and is somehow more intuitive and better. And maybe for mileage to God's ears. But, but it's just like the moment we're in is like, Jesus, have we not made progress. Go ahead, Pete. Um, I think I have three things I'll try to remember them on on that exact topic. When I feel like that when I felt like that in, you know, 1990, whatever. I, I think of Doug Engelbart, who was in the same place, you know, until he died, having invented the technology and seen all the ways to do it and what to do in 1960, whatever, right. So, thank God we're not done like Doug Engelbart because we'd be like 100 or 1000 times more frustrated. It's, there's another another thing that's frustrating if you think about it. Usenet was better than anything that we have now. There are a couple tools IRC is better than anything we have now. We have this weird regression thing where the tools actually get worse as they spread out and get mass adoption and there's it's really hard to build them back up to the power of usenet or the power of IRC is freaky. Um, second thing, one of one of the things that we can do to help all of this adoption as we go through this is certainly calls like this where we check in on the status of it at kind of a high level. Another thing that we can do is have semi regular calls, you know, every two weeks or every four weeks or something like that where um, maybe it takes over Thursday call, maybe it doesn't, maybe it's a separate call where we have kind of a little tour and a little how to of, you know, here's, here's how the forum works and here's, you know, when I needed to have a, you know, deep talk about something, you know, here's how I go find stuff in it. And if we do that, so I don't mean that just as a, as a kind of a, it's not like a webinar thing. It's more like a participatory exercise where it's like, okay, now we're going to play with the idea of, you know, getting stuff into matter most or into the forum or whatever. And this is how it works. Let's have a little bit of the discussion. Let's start some topics in the forum and and then discuss some live or something like that. So that reminds me also that we should just do a bunch of screencasts and videos of, you know, here's how to use matter most, here's how to use the forum. Two more things. One of them, first, next one, third thing. There ought to be, and I think there will be at some point better cross cross communication between the tools. So conceptually, it's not that hard to, to, you know, make a have even started doing it a little bit we saw some, you know, here's what's happening in matter most or here's what's happening in the forum, automatically generated and posted the mailing list. Not that I'm for automatic posting. I think that's generally a bad thing. But if, if you use the light touch, there should also be ways to move things back and forth between, you know, matter most we can capture some stuff out of and put it into the forum or post from the forum into matter most things like that. So I think we'll see some of that happening. Last thing. OGM deserves a wiki, as well as the other tools. So we've stayed away from that because we don't want even more tool confusion but as we get better at adopting the tools that we've got. We're missing, we're, we're kind of using the forum right now and it's not very good for it for memory. And we should double down on that CSC wants to have a media wiki that's kind of like matter most but a wiki instead of a chat. And we can sort of make debate the different tools a little bit later. One reason I like Google sites is that it's the old jot spot which was at one point a wiki, and that it's editing is really brutally simple the problem is that nobody else is in there with me doing any editing so I'd love to try to use it as a wiki for a while and see if that works because it's, it's not it's a really simple elegant tool and we need a wiki is at this point an archaic tool. And it's probably the best bet on wikis right now because I wouldn't want to be using Fed wiki I wouldn't want to be using tiddly. There's a whole bunch of wiki variants none of which are appealing to me. Let me throw one, one more set of tools in there. The right thing to do nowadays for both documentation sites, mark on me sites and and wikis is markdown and get an aesthetic site generator. That's state of the art. That's the best thing to do. It's super powerful super flexible super super common you can use lots of different flavors of tools you can pick the flavor tool you want. And yet it's still you have to learn markdown you have to learn a little bit of get you have to not freak out about that. So Jerry I'm totally down for trying sites as long as you and I at least also try the get markdown while actually you and I and a couple other people mark down get static site generator, which, which replaces and I think isn't an upgrade, even though it's hard for me to say that, because I need to figure out how that's possibly an upgrade but I will I will watch and listen we should have that call and whoever's interested should like let's let's let's throw up a call where we talk through static site generators and how this works. Versus wikis and all that let's do that. Can you just repeat which site you originally talking about where you said you're the only one editing open go home mind calm. Oh, I think I'm the only person who's really sort of worked on it and I've been stuck. There's a tab open it's been open forever with a revamp of the site that I haven't hit publish on because it's not really done. And I don't have enough brains or brain power or brain time on it. So there should be a homepage committee totally. Absolutely. The basics of the basics of with the discourse link and maybe also the CSC. Right, you know, because I find myself inviting people every week a couple of them probably and having to find and fish for these links and all the more things are. Yeah, that should be that should be like right there really easily. Yeah. Exactly. I mean there should be an onboarding page for newbies that says here's our tools here's how to get on them. Here's our here's our neighbor communities. Here's links directly to them, etc etc. Yeah, I agree that onboarding is really important. And it also seems to me that as we start to take on action initiatives which are in the formative stages everywhere that we're going to want to encourage, but not maybe force the people in those action teams to continue within the framework that we have so that the knowledge they develop is available without learning whole different systems. So that's part of the membership agreement or something. I agree from the standpoint of, if we really want collective intelligence we have to be able to communicate across this ever expanding and more complex network. Jerry that strikes me is like just listening and I wanted to say this is like part of this whole tech talk was your original reason for open global mind. Yeah, it was to get out of the 60s. It was it wasn't I mean, we had higher aspirations and if you need to talk about these quests what you could do. Once you got all this knowledge, somehow your arms around it right. It's just funny like I mean this it feels like we're having a conversation about how do we build this thing so that we can go do other stuff and really building this thing is a big part of like why we're together. Well, and, and as we hold on Judy Hamilton. Well I did and just and I wonder, I wonder how just how much this pride you know I really Jerry resonate with how you characterize your struggle with using all the tools and the push versus pull the notifications. How much it's exacerbated by just like being on zoom all the time how much information and not getting out and like we don't have our natural filters that are in place just by the different rhythms of our lives and you know so as we look to build this thing that's more sustainable I don't I mean obviously we have to live in the world that's right now and we we're getting this endemic world that's ahead of us is very different but it feels like it's over I mean it's I don't know it feels like there's no solution to it right now because it's just so overwhelming you know, which is not to be the best but yeah. I was just going to reinforce if you well what what Ham is saying because I think that the connectivity of all of this is the heart of OGM. And so we want to be able to have that connectivity, but not everyone who enters it is more than zoom capable with the outset. So Pete's suggestion that we offer or refer to existing primers on the various systems we want to use is really helpful because most of us even people like me can go listen to a primer and back it up and listen to a section I didn't quite understand a second time, and I'm going to tie up the talent of a live person with that, unless I get really really boxed in and then I can text Pete and say what do I do I just jammed up here. He'll text back, push these three buttons and then I'm done. There's nothing like pause and pause and replay on video it's like so fabulous. It's really helpful, because you can, you can stop the flow even if you just need to stop it so you can digest the thought enough. It really improves the process so. Oh, you're just before I pass the Scott real quick thing I rediscovered where the button was that did the funky thing on matter most which is on win on Microsoft on on Mac OS. I just read yellow green. The green is to minimize the screen. And in this case matter most has three different settings so full screen tile window left tile window right. And what I chose was tile window right which then goes full screen and takes my zoom to the left and makes it just really slick and beautiful sorry I just I just found it so Scott go ahead. Jerry. So you're talking about is that a matter most app. I'm running the matter most app. Okay, okay. Okay, which is the problem here is that it's not the matter most in a tab. It would work in a browser window to if you just. It's a standard Mac thing if you just hover over the green button on any window, you'll get those. Cool. It's a new it's a new feature that I have not grouped yet. It's just open zone tab and shrink it it shrinks down to just the chat window and right sizes it just even that way without any of that. So, yes. Oh, Scott, go ahead. Scott and Charles. Okay, so my observation here is that I'm looking for a list of OGM affordances for our communication channels and here's here's what I'm noticing. I'm using things which I think are interesting. First of all, I went to the air table page open a new tab and went to look at that again. And in one of the, I don't know one of the while air tables the greatest thing ever. You know, here's how I use it. Things what they said is, it's so awesome now our team the third first thing we say is how can we air table this. Okay, so that's, that's one side which says the tool creates the affordance in the sense that, oh wow, air table lets me do these things. So, so it's now. This is great. So now I have this set of affordances that I didn't have before, which can be helpful. So, defines what you put you do it boxes in your thinking in a sense. On the other side, I've observed for years that people don't use Excel as a number calculator. Most of the people I know who use Excel, at least in the marketing department I was in, we're making visuals. We were using it because it was a grid based, like they could do, they could do columns and rows and, and they could organize their information on a grid. They could put images in there and all of that and it's, they were using it as a design program in a sense, right. And so they were using it in a way that it wasn't originally designed for. So they had brought their own, they said, oh, I could do this. Well then, then now that affordance is part of it. I'll give you a second in peak here. So what I'm looking for is if we had a list of affordances, and one of the examples is, and I don't know if this is right. I change in one place, and it mirrors in another place. You know, maybe only the owner has the ability to change something but, but basically it's, it's like, is that something we want? Yes. Okay. So what, what tools meet that instead of saying, here's a cool tool, here's another cool tool, here's another cool tool. And I think the last point I'll make is that the very first thing that I think of when I think of us talking about communication channels is, well, we need a website. Well, we need a forum. Well, we need to chat. Well, that's, and I think that's just because that's just what, what's already there. Because that's how we think, oh, okay, well, I know what a forum is, so, so we need one of those. So let's use that because that works well for this. And, and the difficult part is going to be saying, saying, take all of those things out of it, and say what are the affordances we want. And that's the only way we're going to end up with a new tool. I was saying, yes, like, I think that's core if we could just repeat the last minute of what Scott was saying that would have had that would constantly steer us back into what OGM should be could be might be headed toward Charles then Pete. And a flash just just before, because I thought about Pete's little 32nd animated graphic flow chart thing relating to kind of the sister or sister circles and platforms, and I think that could be done. The style is wonderful. And I want to learn it but it also could be used exactly for this. The OGM tools and their affordances and how they relate and and sort of also use that, I think in the designing the way forward. But Pete, do you want to share that maybe it's so short it's a wonderful. It's probably easier to go find it in the other channel. Okay. I could probably somewhere. Let's see. Yeah, I get to the floor next. Oh, go ahead. So I love that Scott, and I have to tell you, I spend literally 20% of every day, thinking through that, you know what what affordances does a group like OGM need. And I've spent probably literally 70% of my work time for the last 20 years, thinking through exactly that right. What is a what is a group like OGM need and how do we get there and how do we get there most simply. So it might look like I'm going, Oh, I have this amazing tool that I need to wedge into this social organization somehow. It does at least for some people for some some amount of their, their, but literally, literally 20% of every waking day, I'm thinking through how can we make it so that people can communicate more effectively. And so, at the beginning of 20 or 25 years ago, when I was thinking through this stuff. It was a lot more like, Well, I've got this amazing tool or this amazing technology that people have to use. And this is, you know, you know, so I've been disabused of that notion by paying customers, along with friends and relatives and stuff like that over, you know, I, I now now I am to the point I'm old enough and experienced enough and wise enough that what I really try to do. I spend an inordinate amount of that time the 20% time or the 70% time of just trying to figure out the like the minimum stuff to get to the next, you know, the next step the next perfect place. So, that's the tool set that we have matter most and and discourse and a wiki if we ever get there and, you know, the main is, it's, it's, it's this satisfaction, satisfying between possibilities and resources and the hard technical fact that all the tools suck right now, and they're hard to connect and things like that. So, even as I am telling Jerry, dude, the easiest thing to do to replace Google sites, which is which kind of peaked in its applicability and usefulness about 10 years ago. The easiest thing to do is to do it a harder way. And, you know, and you should be using markdown and you should be using get and you should be using a static site generated this is like an insane thing to do Jerry is exactly right. Pete I don't know why you're dragging you back to 1992 because I thought it was 2020. I don't know man I you know if if I had my druthers we would literally be using use net and IRC and that's all we would need. I would say with mark on time right he's a physical the physical universe does not work that way is the weirdest thing. So, so, and the fun thing I was, I was, I guess I got excited about about whining. I have an amazing story about spreadsheets you said people use Excel as layout tools. The guy who invented the spreadsheet Dan Brooklyn, literally comes from a printing and layout company. That's his like he grew up in a print shop, laying out pages. The way he conceived of a spreadsheet is, it's a layout tool, literally. I had this conversation with him personally, you know, I'm talking with Dan Brooklyn is like okay Pete so that the real thing is all the spreadsheets today don't work well enough, because they're supposed to be layout tools. This was in the context of my wiki company for a while sponsored ether calc, which was a collaborative spreadsheet thing and we were talking about and he was an advisor and he was trying to tell us you know what what we should do with the stock. So, you know, so I don't know where the, I feel like there's a moral to that story that maybe in giving it to Bob Franks and the guy who programmed the first spreadsheet. Maybe Bob said, you know the important part of this is the numbers or maybe between Bob and Dan, as they presented it to, you know, whoever they presented it to is like, cool I don't need to lay out right now, because it was, you know, the 80s or whatever with terminals but anyway it's it's a really fun story that the spreadsheet was actually invented as a layout tool, not a not a calculating engine. I love that. Thank you very much for closing that loop because it started there, and then went to the math, and then kind of, he may have probably forked, but it kind of went by. I didn't know that thank you. We're 10 minutes past an hour just about and we've just been covering communication platforms and tools. And there's a whole bunch of other stuff in terms of a retrospective that I would love to get into including sort of, and maybe this is for our next call next Tuesday but I'm feeling like I, I've been both stimulus to OGM and a bit of a barrier kind of a bump in history for a lot of things we've been trying to do and I'm trying to figure out, you know, how that works and how to optimize my, my participation in these kinds of things but I think that's a longer conversation that's not going to happen in the next 15 minutes. And I would love to spend a little bit of reserve a little bit of time, assuming we're going 90 minutes here for a wrap at the end. And maybe what we should do is stay on the communications topic because that leaves us sort of 10 minutes of that, and see where it takes us. And, again, looking back on on what we have. And I think that I think this conversation already has been really fruitful and maybe this is a little bit of the beginning of the wrap, because it's, it's causing us to look back on what we've done in a way that, for me, is making me go, oh, why didn't we have like, why don't we just finish the simple thing of there needs to be a landing page that points to our infrastructure. Right. And like, when I, when I onboard people I add them to the Google group and that I do like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. And I then have to hand write a little note into the Google group admin ad page. And I just say hey, I announced things on this list, you know, look look on this list for news. And I don't I don't I should be giving them a link that says hey here's an onboarding page go start here. Right. And we should have an onboarding team and onboarding page and a page that links all the different things and that's pretty easy to do. But that immediately causes the question of oh where does that page live. And because I'm sort of doing Google site blah blah blah that's kind of where I would hope it would live. And so we have to have this other conversation about well, what in fact is powering open global line calm, etc, etc. So these things are all linked and tumbling, but I think I'm getting some clarity a bit on some aspect of how to approach this go ahead Scott. So my takeaway from this session has been. The tools that we should look at our tools that haven't been developed yet. And also tools that have been around for so long that we've discarded them like IRC and things like that. And it seems interesting that that both of those directions are fruitful. And that we shouldn't discard the idea of all those are you know emails what 50 years old now, you know, and it's still here. What does that mean. It's a good or bad. Don't know but, but I think that there's things that don't exist yet. And things that worked in the past, instead of being too locked into what's what status quo at the moment. And I'll note before I pass it to Charles. So, I did the ye 10 podcast for nine years, and we had an IRC chat on that all the time. And you can was a blend of my crowd my people and Pip Coverns people who were hedge fund managers and money people, and none, and a practically zero of the pips crowd made it ever onto the IRC the IRC turned out to be just our community talking to ourselves in a fruitful I loved our chats our chats were awesome. But, but it was really funny because the IRC, the use of IRC turned out to be this this incredible litmus test for for sort of geekiness. And that meant that those people weren't in that conversation at all, which is pretty funky. Charles. A couple of things on Scott what you were. It's like, I don't know I didn't, I'm having a bit of a, there's two main things one is a big. I'll start with the positive one I'm sitting on a lot of research that's not fresh. But I've done a number of these exact kind of deep dives into tools and collaboration tools and what's even on spreadsheets yeah and I mean using spreadsheet for all this kind of stuff. It's endless. Maybe some of what I have, it could be useful and I'm glad to dig it up and bring it bring it forward. But, you know, rabbit hole alert dark, you know, it's like a black hole, potentially it's like, so I don't know. I agree, we don't want just want to go with the status quo. And we need to get the hell off Google and so forth, in my view, but and zoom and so forth. But here we are. And yeah, how do we actually operate and function and move forward and all of that do that dance. So I just want to say, you're like, I mean Scott, I've been there. And, you know, with some groups and teams and, you know, done some significant work and sort of making sense out of all that. And it's, it's the landscape is shifting all the time to it's like evolving so fast. By the time you sort of make such an assessment then it's already different. So, there you go. I love that Charles and, and, and I just you struck a thought for me I think the Fortin's list is the bridge between what used to work and what doesn't exist yet. And as the tools change the affordances shouldn't maybe we don't change less than the tools and so. So as long as we keep focus on that. We don't need to reinvent that we can probably Google or whatever right away and bring up a bunch of useful stuff. Go ahead. So one of the things, one, I want to offer Pete maybe a way to sell me static site generation and GitHub and all that, which is something I've been saying which is that why don't our tools talk to distributed linked open data. So the deconstruction of where the nodule the nuggets of goodness live is I think part of the infrastructure that you're talking about it's just that the nuggets happen to be in damned markdown, living on GitHub, but that becomes sort of the new distributed S for where the pieces are that then get reconstructed or reconstituted into some arbitrary set of new architectures that have that look like a blog that look like a wiki that look that smell like something else. So, and this is a vision. I felt a really long time ago that I'm like really on board on. It's just that like I can't stand how some of these things look right now. I think the path toward what Scott is describing about a new suite of tools is probably down that avenue. I think I think that that's a really fruitful path that pursues and we should be experimenting on the leading edge of those things. Instead of maybe so and here I don't really know but instead of maybe doing things like building a really nice discourse site that has a tool that's pretty mature that is a threaded discussion tool or whatever else. This discourse is open source right. So maybe maybe part of our task is at some point in the future to mess with discourse in ways that meld it with other kinds of tools. That's really interesting. And discourse has a feature that tries to be a wiki kind of thing but isn't and we can't. So if you get troubleshoot that for discourse and offer the discourse, you know developers. Hey, could you try this and this and then we be lab rats for it. That'd be really interesting and that would be very ogemi sort of thing. And then a separate, a separate thing I'll just add, which is for me, I'm on zoom calls all the time and then for a third of the zoom calls I'm in which I'm hosting. And then I get a thing that says hey you're recording is ready to download I then download it and then upload it to YouTube. And then in YouTube, I do minimal editing I just add a title and stuff like that because it's editing takes a huge amount of time. Lauren, I'm my hats off to you for the amount of editing that you do all the time to produce beautiful videos. And then pointing to a moment that happened in a call, like, when Scott a moment ago said what I said we should just sort of play this over and over again, like, just just referencing that moment as a bookmark in a media event that would be easy to get to is almost impossible to do. No, no, no, it's not though. No, but it is. And so, so when Google when Google plus came out and hangouts first came out and all those things, and Google Hangouts on air first came out. I was like, Oh, this is awesome, because I can be in a multi person video conference using Hangouts on air. That is automatically recorded to YouTube and I can decide whether to make it private or public, just by by flipping a bit. And then the feature that was missing was, tap a little button on the interface to bookmark things that you want to go back to and remember and tag up. And then those tags could become direct URLs direct links into the different places that significant things happen in the conversation and all of a sudden, we sort of got pretty easy links back into notable things that got said, right. But but but the way this is working. It's like 400 kinds of work to get to something that would be really useful and would be a big improvement on on discourse. So does that make sense. Pete, go ahead. You're muted. You're muted again now you're muted on your own. That was. Over. As, as you were describing, maybe we could send out the rough edges or more discourse and manner most and stuff like that. I, that's a big part of the reason why I chose discourse and manner most their open source that they both talk Markdown. That's, you know, that's where I'm going. I I don't know how to say this without feeling like I'm being mean. Scott. I love your enthusiasm and and of course, not just me but 10s of 1000s of people, 10s of 1000 people have spent literally since 1960 whatever inventing those tools are implementation and especially distribution of tools. Is lagging behind like 20 years or something like that. So I admire your and I love your I love your enthusiasm about dude, I think we've got it. All we have to do is think about it a little bit differently and invent new tools. There's a whole bunch of tools, just like Jerry's been, you know, Jerry, Jerry just kind of went through if we took discourse and mashed up manner most and hooked in zoom stuff like that. People have, I mean, literally thousands of 10s of 1000s probably of PhD students have written theses is over the past 40 years, you know, pointing their direction towards that. So, so I'm super excited to have you dive in on that. And there's a bunch of existing work that that we can be inspired by. I don't think that we have to follow it necessarily I and you know. But anyway, there's a there's a bunch of work already already thought through. Isn't that a problem I've heard recently though that that translating that research that that exceptional work into actual like that I had heard was a discovery at first. I agree with Pete that we have that we know to a certain degree what what the affordances are what the things are how the best way to do this. We just haven't been able to get it out in a real way maybe that's just because the general public is slow to adopt. My own take on this having watched it for a while is that the tech world kind of works in step functions of progress. Which, which, you know, my first real job in the world was a mobile oil I was a rate clerk, I got to go to an EDI conference toward the end of my tenure there, electronic data interchange. Before there were PCs and all those things sort of easily permeated everywhere. And then later I watched as e-commerce showed up and then later I watched as XML showed up and then more recently, there's a whole bunch of other things that have elaborated on that. And each of these sort of plateaus for for almost a decade, not quite. And I think that we're at the same sort of stage with the tools we're talking about where we used to have finger and IRC and grep and awk and said and a couple other things, which were insanely powerful but completely geeky, like you had to master a geek vocabulary to use them. Now we have like I'm looking at bit, you know, bitmap displays and blah, blah, blah. And we still can't figure out what to put where. But, but then you have to every now and then use beginner's mind to forget about what you know and reconstitute it. And that's very hard to do. So, Pete has been picking tools with a bias toward open tools we can mess with, but we've been stuck on just getting into the tools. We haven't gotten anywhere near that little band of hey, let's propose an experiment because this and this can turn into this. And so my fear is that as we use conventional tools will get stuck in conventional thinking about the tools, because the human tends to adapt to the to the situation of the tool. And we're like, okay, I'll figure out how to scratch myself behind the left shoulder blade using my right pinky, because that's what I've got to do. And so, and so somehow we need to limber ourselves up to get to beginner's mind and then experiment more and more often. And then I'll add one other thing. I think I mentioned here a long time ago in OGM not on these Tuesday calls. An idea I had for an editor that sort of floats above everything I called it link Edo, and I and I experimented with this a little bit but I just described this thing to David Weinberger, who's a friend of ours who's a one of the four authors of the Clutrain manifesto, but also kind of David. So David is a hidden programmer he loves to geek around. And so I described this to me he said do you mind if I sort of try this out. And so he went and mocked up a couple of pages with the generated HTML and that did whatever that let you edit. But the idea was that the only difference between an email message and a web page for example is that if you think that you're talking Markdown or that like I'm I'm skinning it down to Markdown now, but if Markdown is your common language and the only real difference between an email message and a web page is that one of them says who do I send this to and the other one goes where do I put it that the rest of the page is really roughly the same. There is a context and there's a language and there's a series of traditions about what email looks like and so forth but there isn't that much other difference. And then the difference between a wiki page and a PowerPoint slide is that what you know for me. And so this was part of a second experiment I did with Kenneth Tyler at Seedwiki to take Seedwiki and turn it into a PowerPoint killer and into a blog. And the way to do that was just with playlist pages and doing those exercises, limbered me up to think very differently about what the future PowerPoint might look like what the future of web logs looks like and how all these pieces might fit together. But I almost never get back to thinking about those things because we're always in the onboarding and filtering and shepherding stage of trying to figure out how the hell they have these these conversations. Right. So, so how do we get to the breakthrough stage where we actually sort of bounce into the next way of doing this all together. And sorry I just told like five stories way too quickly so they probably didn't make sense. But I'm trying to keep us trying to keep up. Yeah, I'm trying to keep us from from bouncing over the time. So a key blocker or something a key challenge is is adoption social adoption. So, technical tools are hard to adopt anyway, but when it's social adoption, it, you know, it, you know, I can be using the coolest tool ever but to chat or whatever. But if all of my friends aren't there then it doesn't matter right. And what was cool to me when I was writing for Esther in the 90s in New York was the first time I climbed on a bus and I heard somebody say hey, you know I am back to me. And a couple years before that the first time I saw a URL on the side of a bus. And I was like, Oh, okay, this is this is now entered the common vocabulary, we are now using you know instant messenger and and nobody spent a dime in marketing the original. I am the original buddy lists. ICQ, AOL messenger, you know all of those nobody spent a dime marketing them because they were so damn useful and contagious. And I was thrilled when they just ate the world. Okay, good. That was a sign of some of usefulness and social social needs social contagion of the kind features described. These other tools are harder and now that we're using sort of a mix of them. It's even harder because I the overlap between matter most and discourse to me is a bit of a mind breaker, because I just don't remember where the hell that thread happened. And I'm not and I have no capacity to search both tools. Right. You do. I don't know how I don't know how to search matter most what's inside of a private matter most thread and what's inside of discourse forum through Google through where there's a little magnifying glass on the right upper right of both of them. But that but I would have to search each tool. Yeah, it's true. No, no, no, there's no there's no, you know, unless unless we I can't make the tour of six platforms to search on a topic to figure out where they held that conversation happened. I cannot do that. Right. That's a that's a that's a deal breaker for me that's a that's a really hard thing. So sorry I just eaten a bunch of our rap time let's do let's let's sing and rap for the last five minutes. To say something though. Five minutes ago, if you can remember Charles what you were going to say. Yeah, I'm sorry. Was I. It's a good one. I'm not sure. I mean we're just about to run out of time here. I think I'm, you know, I'm still excited for learning and me to update somehow at some point soonish maybe Jerry when you get a chance to tune in. There's some cool stuff. You know, there's more to say I think I could say a little bit now but maybe that's not the time. What you what you've learned about. There's some really interesting stuff happening in all these different arenas, and I don't know if they're all getting connected so that everyone knows what's happening in those different areas. There's some good thought work being done on teams and process and roles and tasks and things that are executional that fit under this but the communication support for it is primary because then once we have communication capability will be much easier to share all of this knowledge with everybody else so I think it's right to focus on getting the communication stuff straight first. Because then it will help connect all the other work that's going on. And I think that's a completely appropriate conversation for Thursday check in calls I think that that's a really good place to say there's there's all these things we need to weave threads between them but here's here's the, the array of things that seem to be moving forward and have you know how they relate. So let's let's start talking that way on this Thursday's call. Anything else reflecting on your partner. Good way to kick off the year. I think. Oh, go ahead Lauren, I didn't see. Well, there was a lot of communication stuff. Can we just remember. Most important to me, at least, can we just get a few lines on the website. Before we do like website redesign or anything like that. You could just put all the links to discourse in the we had like the matter most just thank you 10 minutes, done. So we have that that's so yeah on the on the chat here in matter most I posted a Google doc link that anybody with the link can edit the doc to a doc that I was embedding on the site. That is a list of where we're talking about what and I haven't touched that doc in a month or two so it's not up to date, but it was the intention of that page was to do exactly to be a directory to here's where what's where and click on this link and it'll take you to that one and you can get an account and log in. But but like a simple button or two or three with, you know, here's the main forum. We can do that too that's easy. We can do that one. When did you put that up Jerry. So there's a link back through matter most. Yeah, there's a link in the matter most if you look back on at eight at 8am Pacific. Okay, so exactly the timestamp 8am I put up a Google doc and the whole thing is snapshot it in the chat so if you scroll up you'll see it. Or back back on. I mean, it came up but I maybe I missed what if there was a conclusion Jerry you wanted more collaboration on the Google site. So then someone else, it doesn't have to be you to do that to five to 10 minutes of just putting those links on there. Exactly. So everybody had privileges to that doc and I'm happy to add anybody to the Google site to edit also to go make changes, I need to push publish on the changes I've made where I took what's on the homepage right now and put it on a back page and said here's the here's our old explanations of, of OGM, but I don't have a beautiful front page explanation of OGM at this point which is why I haven't actually hit republish but I'm creating a page for free Jerry's brain where we can put people toward you know what's happening there. And there should be a landing page for newbies, which is not quite the document that just shared with everybody I think it's that's too complicated for newbies the way it is right now, go ahead Scott. Okay, so I would like to offer an appreciation for Pete and his iceberg, because every time you start to remind me that yeah, I thought about that. I don't really see this, but but all of this is underpending that. And I think the appreciation for your satisfying, which is a word that I think I learned from you I'm not sure is is unfortunately invisible. You know, graphic design to a great design of the science system and it works because you don't even realize that you got to where you wanted to go. Right. So anyway, I, every time you tell your stories I understand more about why we are where we are. And I think that makes me a little more receptive and appreciative and not so. Oh, I like this. Thank you Scott. Any other words in conclusion we have. I just want to do this. So a virtual group hug of everybody. I mean this is just slapping the time. That reminded me of something I wanted to say earlier and this is exactly perfect for this. So, so what I've been trying to do, you know if you're a lead singer in a band in a concert stadium, you have to, you know, you can't you can't make little movements you got to, you got to be huge because you're just tiny, right. So what I'm trying to do, you know, Pete you're talking about something so I'm, I'm doing this, you know, or I'm, you know, yeah. But I'm trying to make it like I'm trying to overact, if you will, because I think it's really interesting to like Jerry you know when when I was doing this I don't know if you noticed it Jerry but, but when I went like this. In about 30 seconds, you moved in and went like this. And it was really this wonderful posture where Pete is talking, and there's people who are indicating. I'm right here. I'm not looking at something else I'm not you know I'm with you, keep going. You know and I just think that that's something I've been trying to do more of, and watching all of you do this and you know it just, it feels more connected in a way. That's kind. And one day we shall meet in person. Once we've defeated the rubber lines. No, no, no, we are the rebel lines dammit. We are. Once we've defeated the evil empire. That's it. That's it. Get the straight dammit. Cool. Thank you for a great call. This has been super helpful. And I'll see you more in the matter most as we go and see, see you most of you on Thursday. Yeah, take care everybody. Thanks.