 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Ronak Chabra. Today we are joined by Sri Kumar. He is the General Secretary of All India Defence Employees Federation. The employee's body has been at the forefront of the agitation against the corporatization of Ordinance Factory Board. The Defence Recognized Federation along with the other two in the industry has extended their solidarity to the upcoming General Strike on November 26th. So Mr. Sri Kumar, thank you for taking out the time for the interview today. Thank you. Okay, so much has been happening when it comes to the defence front in the country. Tensions have been escalated at the borders with China and there have been many changes as well in the sector of defence industries that have been just announced in the month of May this year. But importantly, there is the corporatization of Ordinance Factory Board. This proposal has been staunchly protested by the defence employees. How would you explain this strong opposition? You see, the Indian Ordinance Factory itself is a 219 years old industrial organisation of our country. And when the Britishers left India, there were only 16 Ordinance Factories and at present the country is having 41 Ordinance Factories manufacturing almost all types of defence equipments ranging from battlefield dress to battle tank. These 41 Ordinance Factories are manufacturing. And after the implementation of the neoliberal economic policies in the year 2000, when the Atal Bihari Vajpayee led the BJP government was there, they took a decision based on TKA Nair committee recommendations to convert the Ordinance Factories into a corporation that is a public sector. Which the defence civilian employees, the federations opposed. And at that point of time, there was a discussion with the then defence minister, Mr. Jaswant Singh, followed by Mr. Jack Fernandez. And both have agreed that Ordinance Factories will not be corporatized in the interest of the security of the country and defence preparedness. Because ultimately corporatization means the next step is going to be privatization. Thereafter, another committee was appointed during the UPA government that is the Vijay Keltler committee. That committee also recommended for corporatization. But then again, we went for a strike action and then the then defence minister, Mr. A.K. Anthony, called us. And there was a written agreement that Ordinance Factories will not be corporatized. I am sorry but this is just for the viewers to note. And I would like you to brief us on this also that corporatization means switching of the model the way Ordinance Factory would work. Right now, they are completely owned by a Ministry of Defence and they come under the control of the Department of Defence Production. Corporatization would make them something like a defence PSU at the lines of HAL and BEML, if I say. So what's the harm in that? I mean, how would you say that that's a penultimate step to privatization? Because on the 16th of May, I am straight away coming to your question. On the 16th of May, when the Finance Minister, Nirmala Sita Raman announced that Ordinance Factories will be corporatized. In the same announcement, she has also mentioned that in the strategic sector, there will be only four PSUs and the remaining PSUs will be privatized. Assuming that the government will treat defence as a strategic sector, already you know as you rightly mentioned that there are about nine PSUs in the defence. Like HAL, BEML, BDEML, BDL, Vidani and all those and nine PSUs are there. Now if Ordinance Factories become a corporation and according to the Cabinet decision, it is not only one corporation, it may be multiple corporations also. So that means adding to the nine, it may be 12, 13 or 14 corporations. Now government has made its position very clear that only four corporations will remain, four PSUs will remain, remaining will go away. What is the guarantee that Ordinance Factories will remain as a PSU? And the writing on the board is very clear because the honourable Prime Minister himself was told on all occasions, public sector has to be privatized. And this government is bent upon that, that we know what is happening in BPCL and other sectors. Therefore, we are opposing corporatization because we are convinced they are converting this into corporation only to privatize it. That's all. Well, you have very well explained that particular question in the sense that why the defence employees are protesting the corporatization of the Ordinance Factory. But the announcements that you refer to, you know, in the May by Finance Minister Nirmala Sitaraman, it didn't just speak about the corporatization of Ordinance Factory but other things as well. In the sense that she raised the cap on FDI on defence production from 49% to 74% through automatic route. And in fact, this month, in the month of August, Prime Minister Narendra Modi himself came about and spoke about the Atman Irbharta in the defence production or the defence industry as a whole. It seems that employees, you know, defence employees are against the self-reliance. Also, if they are against the corporatization of the Ordinance Factory, if that is so, how would you explain that? No, you see the government's position itself is contradictory. On the one side, the government is telling that we are going to bring FDI through automatic route. And on the other side, the government is telling we should achieve Atman Irbharta Bharat what you call making India in the defence for achieving self-reliance. This itself is contradictory. Once the foreign direct investment comes to the country, then how you can term it as an Atman Irbharta Bharat, I don't understand because it will be done only as screwdriver technology. The CKDs and SKDs, what we call as the complete knockdown or semi-knockdown will come from those foreign companies whoever is investing money. And then the Indian companies will be doing only the screwdriver technology by assembling those issues. So in the real terms, it cannot be called as Atman Irbharta Bharat and it cannot be called as making India. Whereas if you go to the ordinance factories, 97% of the products are indigenous. 97% of the products being manufactured in the 41 ordinance factories, almost 650 products, barring 3% of the items or components that is especially for tanks, T90 tanks which is coming from Russia. Otherwise, including the latest gun what we have developed, Danush, is around 100% indigenous. So if you critically analyse, in the real terms, it is the ordinance factories which is the real Atman Irbharta and which is the real make in India. Not by bringing FDI and asking some private companies to have collaboration and do the screwdriver technology. That is not the real self-reliance what we understand. Mr. Sri Kumar, whenever defense employees of ordinance factories have gone on strike or let's say they have engaged in any protest, they usually accuse the government of the day of siding with the private sector a lot at the cost of public sector units. Would you hold that same view for the current Narendra Modi-led central government as well? 100% I am holding the same view. Why? Because I will tell you in one sentence. Even a very, very critical and sensitive items like ammunition for the ordinance factories, the army or the government is placing the order on an yearly basis. But when the private sector came into the defense production field, especially ammunition, the most sensitive defence item, they have imposed a condition on the government that I have invested so much hundreds and hundreds of crores of money in my factory. And if you are going to give me order indent on an year to year basis, I will not be able to produce. So I require minimum 10 years workload, then only I can invest money. And the Narendra Modi government is so liberal to them and whatever orders now they are placing on the private sector, they are placing 10 years indent for them, whereas in the case of ordinance factories, they give on an year to year basis. Is it not a discrimination? Is it not indirectly killing the ordinance factories and encouraging the private sector? So therefore, I still hold the view for benefiting the private sector, the victim is going to be the 41 ordinance factories. And that is happening. Mr. Shikumar, that is very interesting because usually such decisions are made in the name of attaining level playing field in the industry. Mr. Shikumar, in the month of October this year, the 82,000 ordinance factory employees, different sector employees, they were about to go on a strike against the corporatization of the ordinance factories. Now that decision was rolled back, the strike was deferred due to a meeting. I would like you to give us a brief on that particular whole episode. What is happening currently because as far as I know consultants have been appointed already, private consultants. So if you can just brief about that episode, why the strike was deferred at all? You know, because we are basically industry and governed under the industrial dispute act 1947. And our strike notice is based on the provisions of the ID Act 1947. And during the course of the preparation of the strike, in fact we were to commence the indefinite strike from 12th of October. You know that. On the 9th of October, the chief labor commissioner central intervened in the matchup based on the advice or based on the request you made by the department of defense production. And he is the consideration officer under the industrial dispute act. So therefore he intervened and convened a meeting with us. And in that meeting, we have told very clearly that there are three demands. And none of the demand is economical demands about wage revision or about pension or about bonus, nothing like that. Our demands are only three. Number one, the decision, the arbitrary decision taken by the government in violation of the previous assurances and agreements that ordinance factory would not be corporatized. That decision should be withdrawn by the government. This is number one. And number two, the reasons being told by the government for corporateization is that OIP is not having efficiency. OIP, there is no accountability. OIP is not improving its performance. So if this is the allegation, we the employees are convinced that within the government setup itself, whatever is expected by the government as owner of these factories. It can be done in the government setup also. There is absolutely no problem. And for that purpose, you appoint an expert committee. We will also associate with that committee. And we will come with the viable proposals and the suggestions, which is logical and scientific. And based on that, the ordinance factories performance can be further improved in the government setup itself. This is the second demand. And the third demand is basically, you see, we are all recruited as central government employees, defense civilian employees based on an all India competitive examination. And many of us are working in good private sector, in public sector. Since we want to serve the ordinance factories, a defense of the country, we have resigned and joined to this central government service. In our appointment order, nowhere it is mentioned that after 15 years, 20 years of your appointment, on fine morning, we will convert you into a public sector employee. Because there is a vast difference between the service conditions of a government employee and a public sector employee. And the mandate given by the 82,000 employees through the strike ballot is I want to continue as a government employee. I don't want to become a PSU employee because I am recruited as a government employee. So for that purpose corporate decision should not be there. So these are all the three demands. But ultimately the government told corporate decision is a policy decision of the government. They have got every right to take a decision. And the employees or their unions have got no authority to challenge that decision. So that is not an issue negotiable. That is not an issue negotiable. Yes, you will be having problems in your service condition. That you can project on that a dialogue can take place. But then we told nothing doing because why my service condition is changing from where the problem starts. The problem starts because you are converting my industry into a public sector. So unless that is not discussed, where is the question of discussing my service matter? So then we made a request to the chief labor commissioner, please record a failure report. Because under the IDF, there is only two things. One is an agreement or a failure report. Once a failure report is recorded, then it has to be referred to the government and government has to refer it for adjudication. It will go to the central government, industrial tribunal. So we were insisting that there should be a disagreement and there should be a failure report because the government is not yielding an inch. But the chief labor commissioner took a position that unless you, the employer and the employees sit together and discuss how I can go for a failure report. So I am advising the Department of Defense Protection that they should hold a dialogue with the federations who ever has given the strike notice. Based on this settlement reached with the, I mean in the presence of the chief labor commissioner, the strike was deferred. And the first dialogue, the first dialogue after the conciliation settlement took place on 29th of October in a meeting chaired by the secretary. Three hours the meeting went on and we were insisting all our three demands. Otherwise we told okay, if you are not at all going to agree our demands, then you let us have a disagreement and go back to the chief labor commissioner and then the law will take its own course of action. At that point of time, the secretary DP suddenly told us okay, you people are not accepting corporatization. So when you people are going on arguing that within the government setup itself, the ordinance factories can perform, can improve. Then you give an alternative proposal. He told yes, we are prepared. He will give you an alternative proposal that how within the government setup itself, the ordinance factories can function effectively. Then he also agreed. And today is the date we have to submit the report. And before coming here, I have just bailed the report to secretary DP. The joint report formulated by the three federations, the alternative proposals given by us. So this is where we start. All right, and this is something that also explains why the ordinance, the defense employees will be engaging in campaign programs, but won't be striking work on 26th of November, the coming general strike. Finally, Mr. Shri Kumar, during my course of reporting, it was very exciting or it was very inspiring to see the three defense major federations to come together. The collective bargaining of the defense employees has been something that is very much heralded, which has also seen participation from RSS affiliated unions. They have been standing with you shoulder to shoulder. How would you explain such a collective bargaining and how does that stand as an inspiration to other sectoral struggles, if I may ask you. You see, as you very correctly told, it is really a historical unity forged by the defense civilian employees. The unity here in this case is forged by the defense civilian employees and the federations have to go by that. And all the three federation leadership, because in this issue, absolutely there is no difference of opinion that ordinance factory should not be corporateized. So once all the three federations in a major policy matter is having the same view and the same opinion, then things became very easy for us to come together. That was a very inspiring note again to end the interview over here. Thank you so much, Mr. Shri Kumar for joining us today for taking time out of your schedule. Thank you so much, sir.