 Hello and welcome to Newsweek. Today we are going to discuss Kashmir and Dineshwar Sharma, the interlocutor's visit there. We have with us Seema Mustafa, well-known journalist and also has been following Kashmir quite closely. Seema, how do you read this visit? Of course, before this visit, I think what the Modi government had done is partially delegitimizes visit by saying, is only going to discuss governance and not any issues. How do you read what happened? What are the conversations? I think, you know, Dineshwar Sharma, we know anyway, he was Intelligence Bureau chief and he's gone there with some kind of a brief that's come directly from the government, not his own imagination or his own thinking or his own vision and he did exactly what was predicted. He went there, he met the ruling parties, he met some of the others who were prepared to meet him. He didn't even bother to meet the youth who are actually at the center stage of this unrest, this protest, this, you can even call it alienation, this anger. There was no reaching out. He went in like an official, he met those who he had to meet and he's come away. So really, it's an exercise more to convince the international community and some kept some persons maybe in the domestic community that yes, we are doing something. You know, this is the big issue that if talks are attempted, that they, it would be argued that they need to be good faith talks, which means talk to everybody, keep an open mind, don't set preconditions and so on, because you're just talking. But if limits are put onto talks, how many people will the talks be? At the same time, if no talks takes place, do you think it's a worse scenario? Yes, actually it's a catch-22 position, right? No talks, it's really bad. But talks always failing makes it much worse. You know, we've been seeing that not just under this government even before, that every time ill-thought-out dialogue took place, there was a reversal and a setback felt in the valley because it got more cynical, it got more depressed and that little bit of hope that always kept the valley in Jammu and Kashmir tied to India, you know, and that link that never snapped was simply based on hope that yes, we will get what we are asking for, which is a little more autonomy, a little more freedom, which all the states of India actually want, right? And they wanted more because that's what they were promised when they decided to join India. So there's a history to it. There is the other part of it which again the government seems to completely ignore that it is not just about asking for more autonomy, but actually preserving the autonomy which existed or which was promised to them when they joined the Indian Union. And that erosion, the reversal of the erosion is also something that needs to be discussed that seems to be completely off the radar. Yes, and that's been off the radar for a long, long time. The erosion of that autonomy that was promised has been continuous. It's been steady, it's been continuous, it's unfortunately been under the watch of their own governments, whether it be National Conference or now the PDP. It's actually from the 60s onwards. It's from the 60s onwards. So you know, you're not actually giving the kind of, you know, you're not creating that reliability, you're not creating that trust, the confidence which you need between a center and the states. You know, also the Prime Minister and we have to take whatever he says seriously because after all he does represent the Indian state. The Prime Minister is saying autonomy is like asking for secession. Now given the fact that all the unrest in the country, Missouri and Nagaland, all of this has hinged on the issue of autonomy and certain kinds of state rights which needs to be protected being the basis of these negotiations, how do you start with the premise that autonomy itself is like secession? Yes, and you are also coming with this statement with a background, a history of three years, where you use pellet guns, where you've treated the people of Jammu and Kashmir as your enemies, where you've attacked and where your forces have actually cracked down on young people in a most, you know, in a manner which is completely violative of human rights. So you've done all those things and then you say that autonomy is secession which shows a clear lack of understanding and a certain denial which we've often seen by governments at the center of the federal character of this country, you know. Federalism is really what's kept this together, a certain level of autonomy varying and obviously increasing as you reach the border states. That really determines the relationship between the states and Delhi and that is what you're violating. You know, the other part of it is when Rajnath Singh had gone and earlier of course you had opposition leaders go, you had Ashwin Sinha go, it appeared that there was a realization which I think also the armed forces have told the government that this is not the way they can continue, that armed forces task is not to face the civilian population and these are political resolutions. It appeared with Rajnath Singh to visit the government who's rethinking. But the kind of limits that have been put in, the kind of statements which have come from Mr. Modi, does it mean that this starting of this itself has been far more inauspicious as it were that the other interlocutors that we have set up in the past? I don't think they are actually even looking at this as a dialogue process. I think it's just sort of something put out there in the form of Mr. Sharma to go through a certain procedure so that if parliament is held or if the international community actually raises it then you can say well we are having a dialogue, let that dialogue wear out and meanwhile you do exactly what you've been doing in the last three years using the security forces to actually clamp down on areas and we all know you know when you emerge from the dark decade of militancy in Jammu and Kashmir you also realize that in wiping out that militancy which was at that time more from Pakistan and not that homegrown you actually wiped out you know a generation of men and you created a lot of suffering and trauma in the valley because of which the valley is not being able to forget what really happened at that time and every time there's a setback like the use of the pellet guns then you have people over there reminding you of the time when they were in forced disappearances when there were half widows who were created and that is a reality that is not something that you can wish away. It's the 90s. Yes the 90s period. So the same thing will happen now if you use the security forces in the manner and give them a blanket permission to go in and do what they want then in wiping out two militants they will automatically wipe out many more who are probably who are innocent. That the government of India seems to be completely immune to the idea that what they are creating in Kashmir is actually also wiping out what was called Kashmir once upon a time a kind of shall we say different kind of Islam which lived there which still lives there. And also the kind of culture to which everybody belonged not only Muslims but also Hindus and let's not forget German Kashmir is one of the few places where land reforms really took place. So it was also peasant peasantry oriented towards the peasantry which is very different from most parts of the country post independence. All of that is actually going to be receiving a huge setback and what we are likely to see the emergence of therefore the gun culture and therefore what we have seen in West Asia and is that the direction that Kashmir could head to if this government is allowed to continue its policies. Yes it could and you know the thing is the setback is huge. The setback is so huge that now if anybody is seen as talking to even Sharma or whatever the whatever Delhi or whoever Delhi sends is going to be seen as a major betrayal. There was a period recently not so long ago when it seemed that things were really settling down in Kashmir, tourism etc was happening. There was a certain level of very slow and very fragile trust that was developing. But the last three years and particularly the kind of response from New Delhi to whatever was said or wanted or whatever the Kashmiris were talking about has created a breach which I really don't know who's going to be able to really sort of mend in bridge. It's a completely it's a condition today it's a situation today where you've lost this trust of the valley and my problem is that I don't really know whether anyone in Delhi cares. Or whether we can ever rebuild the trust because all those who could rebuild the trust have also been in the polarization, been isolated and lost their own credibility or legitimacy to speak. There is no political leadership from any political party. It has to be a political leadership that is going to talk to people. That's about that is the minimum that you can talk about even last time when the congress government appointed the three interlocutors there was a sort of a no from Kashmir because they knew that interlocutors who are not political and don't have the mandate of a government are not going to be able to achieve anything. And it has to be a politician to understand the political nuances. It's so strange that you know Vajpayee actually understood this and right or wrong did start a process and the congress interrupted that process and the Modi government has taken it decades behind. It's interesting that now of course Mr. Chidambaram who is the Home Minister also talks about a lot of the things about the processes and autonomy and so on somehow it didn't seem to occur to him then. Mr. Chidambaram's policy on Kashmir was almost the same as the policy today except you know he was one of the persons who was really responsible for pushing back whatever had been achieved the little that had been achieved between Delhi and Srinagar. I still remember that when all the political parties met here and had a big rally at the constitution club to to on Kashmir and it was the first time ever in independent India that 14 political parties asked for the withdrawal of the armed forces special powers act. Entire media was there because everybody knew it was important and it was the congress government in one direction and wiped out it was blacked out from the media and we all know whose direction that was. Thank you very much Seema to be with us. Bleak times in Kashmir let's hope better since dawns and we will move forward at some point of time to at least reopening the process of dialogue. Thank you very much to be with us. This is all the time we have with NewsClick today. Please keep watching NewsClick and also visit our website.