 Hello everyone and welcome back to for the minions the show all about upcoming third-person MOBAs and we do this every week we do we try to do this every week We kind of missed the last two weeks, but not a lot went on not a lot went under those two weeks I don't feel too bad about it So we're going to go over the different updates for over prime fault predecessor and ethereal And then we're going to talk about whatever topic of discussion comes to us I think what we're going to talk about is like reasonable like I want to have just a frank very very honest conversation about How how can we really expect these to succeed? Because I'm starting to think maybe no, but anyway I am your host the man who's joining me as always as my friend and co-host jelly knees. How you doing jelly? I am fan-tastic man goes other than Vikings trying to steal my shoulder thing that I do literally every episode And so he's doing the shoulders of the intro. That's not acceptable Unacceptable, but with this week I already said we've got Viking back with us. Welcome back Viking Jedi. How are you doing? I'm doing doing great. I didn't realize that that was a thing that you did I just saw you doing it this time and I was like I got the shoulders right between the two of us for a dynamic duo. Okay. Oh, yeah Get your own thing get your own thing Jedi. I don't know how to do my own thing No, I'm doing good though. Thank you guys. You're obviously doing good. You feel like you're on cloud nine right now You played Paragon, right? You've been on the show before people really enjoyed your last appearance on FTM I don't know why I have no idea why because we've been hanging around a lot and Man, you are just the worst the absolute worst but people like you for some reason Yeah, I don't understand either. I'm probably one of the most self-deprecating people out there. So No, I I did play Paragon way back in the day I the only thing I could think of of why maybe people like me is that I'm just maybe You know a little bit of a different point of view more of a you know casual kind of looking from the outside in Fewer maybe and so that they resonated with that. I don't know, but I'm I'm happy they like me I'm happy to be back and now hopefully they enjoy my commentary again today It could just be like a hunt rack of Notre Dame thing like the Feast of fools where we bring in viking so that everyone has someone to make fun of right? Oh fair enough. Yeah Yeah, no, I'm used to that too Especially gaming with you. Yeah, I'm sure it's been a good time game. It's been a good time game with you guys But let's move on to these updates here. I'm just gonna go in order how I have them on the sheet over prime While back then interview with the music composer did did the music for their game and I remember thinking like hey That music's pretty good But like when I really like I watched this and then really went back and really listen to it and holy shit It's really really well done. Like it's to the caliber that it'll be memorable It'll I don't think it's I'll think anything will ever top adrenaline for me as far as like whenever I think Paragon I think adrenaline But I think this has potential to be that song for For over prime. Did you guys catch that interview at all? I did. Yeah, I Did not I didn't I didn't hear but I did enjoy the music a lot. What was what was the interview about? It was pretty basic like where did you get your inspiration and like how did you do all this stuff? I guess he's like he's pretty famous Game music guy, I don't know but uh, yeah, I just thought about you know The actual interview seemed a little generic to me like he was like, well, it needs to be epic and it's like stuff that describes like any game Exciting and epic is like well, yeah, I mean it felt kind of general it felt like before it said of The way I think maybe that was the way it was cut, too Is it was like it popped a question on screen of like what gave you the inspiration for overprime? I mean we give a very general answer and not like a specific like in overprime I thought about cults and with cults be like being a super Root and toot and gun guy right that we Designed the theme around that like it didn't there was no specifics. It was very general a lot of the interview So does it didn't give you like It's like the idea that maybe he didn't know what it was and just making it for and they were just like Like hey, we need you to make a score for this game and and then he made the score and then wait Interview about that. Oh, yeah He was like what I was doing the music for overprime Almost felt like that No, he did say we're making fun of this fucking interview like crazy now I don't know why cuz it wasn't bad He did say that like so we've worked really well with him and provided him plenty of like background lore and like Videos and pictures and stuff for him to like gather his inspiration from but again like the inspiration that he listed seemed like it Could just apply to pretty much any game, but yeah, the music is good. He did a great job But yeah, I mean, I definitely like the music in game It felt like you epic, you know being generic it did though I mean it was if what you would want in moments of you know having things happen the sound in general I felt like in the game was really good. So they meshed well with the music I think the one that like sticks out to me one there their main theme like when you're on the main menu but the thing that I can remember more is the Prime dunk theme that win prime spawns and is charging down the lane Oh, yes rums. It's like, oh, yeah, like what are we doing? I mean, where are we going? Yeah, that's a that's true. That's it was huge right like it felt like that like you're like Oh, we gotta keep going like you knew you and if it dropped as an enemy like or if you were the enemy They got dropped that like you felt like that sudden urge to be proactive to defend your base That's a really good point and you even think about that. I've definitely noticed the first time that a dunk drop too I was like, whoa, whoa, what is this music? That was a good feeling for sure See other stuff for overprime they got new skins that got a concept skin for several and a concept skin or rampage Both of them, of course look really good. These are not 3d modeled But we've seen in the past that like we saw a concept skin for phase and then two weeks later They had the full skin Made it in game. So it's when we see cons like when I see concept skins from other games Like I'm a little less excited about it than with overprime because I know that they're gonna make that and they're gonna make it Make it fast. Yeah, and for those overprime players in the audience that is demorious and tariff because Refuses to use their actual names. Okay Get it right man goose. I think what we're doing that the play he would like bounce between the different names Oh as we were doing it and I would get confused and I would be like, wait, which one is what and you'd be like big Swingy, you know hammer guy or whatever. Oh, okay, that one. Yeah. No, the skins look really really cool I'm assuming that man goose is gonna put it in where you guys can see them on the screen or something like that Oh, be well. Oh, okay. Well, I was going to make you look stupid The several skin to me just looks I mean that they were already good in game I thought that they had nailed the feeling that I expect for several, but this one it looks really really cool I Mean we can't play it, but I can't wait to see it like it looks good It feels very like Angel of Death Asked to me like it's just it's that grim reaper Angel of Death cross that and it just looks so good Like this he's already got the gold skin that looks really good But I probably this one over that one every time just like that's it's so good Yeah, I'm always a fan too when you have to struggle between like picking a skin on like you're loading into the game And you're like, oh, which what am I feeling and if you for me It's like if you capture a vibe like if I'm feeling like, you know goofy or you know kind of like troll like you know Like okay, I'm gonna pick this skin. That's like, you know really silly or but I'm like, you know I'm just I'm feeling sweaty. I want the sweatiest skin I can get into And I think that they they've done a decent job not necessarily with several skins I think all of his are kind of edgy and cool in that regard But like I do want to see more of that like, you know Where you get to capture how you're feeling and in essence because you know Your skin is your representation in game outside of just the champion itself And so I like to see that they're expanding and coming up with, you know, new and cool ideas that you know capture that feeling The Terex skin was really cool too. It's looks sort of mechanical. It looked kind of um, I Don't know it did look full robotic, but it looked really really cool it fits so it's similar in design to The cult skin that we have as well that like that mecha cults in the design aspects are very very similar So I wonder if that's a skin line that they're going for that They're gonna design a whole group or everybody's gonna get one of these mecha skins Because it's got those the kind of the chest piece that's there the glow is very similar in a lot of aspects I'm a huge fan of this skin. Oh, I really want mecha fade because that makes zero sense It also to me it looked like a like a destiny to monster When I first saw it and I'm not that it's a dig by the way I think it's it's he just looks imposing and cool and like he said that I didn't really put the two skin types together But I could definitely see it Matching night that cold skin and that would be full on board with like a skin line that kind of matched across the board I think that would be something that could be cool That might be doing is that this is kind of the anti color scheme of the cult skin So they could be doing that like white and purple color scheme for one side And then this black golden blue for the other side and have the same skin line but two factions in that skin line like we Legions or other other mobas do the same thing where you have opposing skin lines are posing factions in the same skin Rather, I think that's a great idea, and I'm all for that It kind of dawned on me when you said he looks like a destiny to muster He looks like a grunt from the original halo. Yeah, there you go. See me. Yeah kind of art style. Absolutely Yeah, he looks badass That's it for I would probably wish you guys had any anything else Another play test to win. Yeah, no, right seriously, I Keep like pulling it up on steam and clicking on it and being like oh is there any announcement? I was looking same kind of constant I was looking at steam charts earlier randomly and I saw that there was like one player on there And I was like, what is that? What is it one guy trying like log on and just just got to like The loading screen or whatever and then says servers are down like some random dude decided to click on it today Like you just happen to get in while they were working on something that would be Good whoever has the most hours in overprime on steam and everyone's just gonna be sitting in the load screen just Can't walking on the keyboard That's about it for overprime. Let's guys had anything else. Nope Let's move on to well the theory will got nothing. Well, we'll save them for the last fall They had a patch 16.2 Introduced even more optimization, which the last like I don't know three four patches They've done have been optimized been optimization patches a new history tab that shows you Like everything that like your your last games like your stats and everything which is really cool something didn't have before a few new items and some balance and bug fixes So, yeah faults been pretty consistently pumping out more and more items better and better optimization and then this history tab which Fault is far more complete as far as like aspects of a game that you would expect in a complete game than any of the other ones However, I I haven't touched fault like for like two weeks Talked to a lot of my friends and looking at steam charts. It seems like nobody has really touched fault For the past two weeks. I don't know what happened. It's not that bad of a game. I was having fun playing it before I just have not felt like playing fault for a little bit even even after this patch. I think it's hard because fault has also not done Anything to like try and bring people in for any reason necessarily they haven't there's been no new character This this patch went out, but the patch really doesn't do much in terms of like exciting reasons to play again and so it's I guess kind of falling stagnant for a lot of people I've I've felt the same way there have been several times Especially since the overprime test that I've like looked at fault and been like maybe I'll play a game or two of fault And I just like don't have I don't have just enough push To actually start the game right like it's just I'm just on this side of the line Um, and so I think for at least myself and I may probably other people as well just something To engage people something to bring them back in just to push people back over that line Could be super useful for them I mean I was excited to see in this patch We built the foundation for implementing skins with their own vfx and sound effects because mangers we've talked about that weeks and weeks and weeks ago about how specifically the summer fun twin blast doesn't have water pistols It's like you could just make them blue and put them in there like what do we do? It's like so the little things I think that's a little thing that goes a long way When you make summer fun twin blast have water pistols instead of his regular guns And I think eventually they'll start marketing fault a little harder and trying to actually get it in the people's hands Give you get some of this ability of it because I mean like As everybody says and as we've all said That's the biggest problem is just a really low player base and all the players that play it play it religiously So when you do try and get in there you're playing against people that know All the ins and outs of the game and every bug and every exploit and every this and that and You just get demolished in a way that you don't even learn from it and that's That's a feels bad right there Um Yeah, uh, that's that's all I had for fault. Let's you guys add anything else No, I'm not I mean not really I haven't played it since I don't even know how long ago I looked again same thing. I think man goose you just mentioned like there's not really a lot of people play I looked at steam charts after this patch thinking. Oh, maybe it'll you know bump it up a little bit Literally, it's like the same it's like 150 people consistently a day playing it and um to your exact point like if If I'm thinking about trying it and I want to go and I and I download the game And I get in and the 150 people that I'm going up against consistently are all people who have been playing it since day one Super sweaty hundreds of hours thousands of hours and you're just getting you know, goomba stomped You're uninstalling that thing right away. You're just like nope. I'm over it. I don't need to Um, I I yeah, I honestly don't know what the that they can do to really crack into a new player base My only maybe suggestion and that's if a dev is even watching It would be to add in a more like Fun to play mode like something that kind of intros people into the mechanics of the games and the champions like, you know Like a league of legends erum almost, you know, where you get like an arena mode for Smite, you know something where people who are a little bit more casual can get in There's not as much sweaty aspects to it games will last 15 to 20 minutes instead of 30 to 45 minutes You know get you familiar with items and and the different champions. Maybe that'll help introduce new players, but I think with its current standing. I mean outside of the top three mobas in general It's already really hard to keep players, you know coming in. So Uh, I don't know what they're gonna have to do to to garner new attention I think something like an area mode is a great idea even if it isn't balanced um Just a for fun thing where people can get in play a play for like 10 minutes and then They'll play a couple 10 minute games and then get out. I think that would Bring that would bring a lot of people in I think I mean, I know for me, uh, and jelly can attest to this sometimes when I'm not sure what I'll want to play I'll boot up league legends and I'll like I'll just play a couple games of eram Literally after those like two or three games there. I'm like, oh, I got the itch. Yeah, let's play You know, and yeah, because it brings it back to you you start to feel like, you know The groove of it you get familiar with maybe any new champions that have come out Now league is obviously far and above like the biggest of them Right, they have a lot more resources to be able to commit to teams and doing that and I get That fault maybe doesn't have that same capacity, but I just yeah, I don't know because again I was looking at charts and it's like, you know, so league of legends is by far the biggest moba Second is dota and then and we're talking in third place But very very far down third place is smite and smite has like a concurrent of like 10,000 players League of legends in an example has like 2.5 million, you know a day a day playing That's a small country. You know what I mean like playing league of legends You know what I mean, though, like so like when I started thinking about like, you know, these guys And I'm hopefully not taking us too off track But what I think about like a game like fault or or Overprime or any of these ones that are trying to to come into this space It's like, how do you really crack into where even smite which is a lot more established third-person moba at this point with A lot of backings and a lot of you know interests. It's don't only garnering, you know, 20,000 players a day That's it It seems gloom and to say the least, you know, I don't know what they have to do. I don't know I hope someone figures it out though because I would love to play one I think that's kind of yeah, that's kind of the goal though is to To to get to where smite is not not not to get where legal edges is. They're not they're never going to topple legal edges or dota Yeah, fucking crazy wild happens, but you know Yeah, well Okay, what? Well, I guess a Kind of like heroes of the storm gave them a run, right? Like here's a storm not granted its blizzard so another huge company with a lot more, you know inbuilt You know players, but here's a storm got really popular and I think was running up against dota numbers pretty close I think in its prime, um, but again, it it totally different concept But that was just gonna be your mine my small counter to Yeah, challenging the top three. I don't know who could yeah, it was blizzard casket The future on that one, but oh well Let's move on to a predecessor. Um, only really one change. Um And I don't know why they did this they changed their core design. They put it up on uh, twitter Um, it's now just like a like a pyramid Um pretty that pretty standard for a paragon to have the the pyramid with the little stuff kind of floating around it I I hate that we always seem to be speaking negatively of predecessor on this show However, why the fuck did they change it their core was awesome They used to like their core used to be like this weird geode looking thing That was just really unique to predecessor really well done and it was I loved it. I absolutely loved their core. I don't know why they changed it this generic pyramid Uh jelly, I know you guys have thoughts You're you're known as Love this new pyramid man goose. I think it's the greatest thing predecessor has ever put in this game. Okay good Um, I think it's absolutely a valid change. You're insane for not liking it and that's all I gotta say about that. So Uh, you think they're gone. I think they they've gotten off my back now. Yeah. Yeah, they're off your back I'm healing to the the predecessor I mean mangers, I sent him to you going like what what was this What is this because I completely agree with you this Feels like a really generic change that was unnecessary Uh, especially that shape that pyramid shape is was like the buff shape for river buffs in paragon and then it was also In fault. It's also one of the the shrine buffs. Yeah, is that shape and so to me it's a weird Comparison to make it the core now when they had a unique core prior a really good looking like it was reminding me of something else It was it was its own entity and it should be being the final thing you're trying to destroy It should feel unique And so it feels generic. It feels like a weird change. I hope they changed it back Yeah Fucking yeah, I don't understand too like Like you look at that tweet people are like Oon and all and I'm like I I know it's subjective. I know it's subjective. I know that like maybe people do prefer that pyramid I just personally don't see how you would prefer that pyramid over what they had before what they had before was amazing Um, it it feels like smoky could take a shit in a ziploc bag Take a picture of it posted on twitter and say new hero and people would be like, yes It's like no fucking like I don't know why I don't know why people like that. Um, they had such a nice core before It's a shame. It's a shame 100% I don't think it's that bad guys to be honest. No, it's not bad It's not bad. It's just not as good as what they used to have. Yep. That I completely agree It felt like an unneeded change Yeah, why why did we spend time on this instead of something else? I I just really liked their core before I thought that was one of the best parts of predecessor was that Really unique very cool core design and they were so generic with it. I don't understand Okay, people seem to like it. I'm not gonna lie. That's what they do. That's what I'm saying. Why is that? Why do they like that say anything at this point in the the cred fanboys out there will lose their minds Well, so wait, did you guys already talk about this? They have maybe you guys have and I don't know but uh One of their tweets in a reply was that they will have early access by the end of the year Yeah, they've said that they have. Oh, okay, so that could mean anything got it Sorry, I'm just quickly reading through some of these tweets because it's it's it's funny seeing like so of all the things like as I continue to learn more and as you guys have Influenced me the predecessor fanboys are by far the strongest Voices that I don't know if that necessarily means a good or bad game, but they definitely are the most active like I mean I'm talking about even on like I was watching some random tick tock and I think they were talking about You know the paragon successors. It was just some random creator I don't even know how I got on to this But he mentioned the three and literally like I want to say it was probably like 400 comments and like 90 of them were all predecessor predecessor predecessor It's like I feel like they have like an army of like lots. Yeah responding to anything really It's because it's because they have the best one though for real like out of all three games Predecessor has been by far my most my favorite to play Yeah But like even even with that said like I know I can identify that there are things wrong with predecessor I can look at predecessor and point out bad things but they have such The the community is just such overwhelmingly white knights and the other problem too is I know it's the same community That we're cheering for fault while while nobody was paying attention to predecessor And I was like guys core is not going to be cool predecessor is like oh, fuck you core Football player blah blah blah And then when core went away it was fault and everybody was like oh fault's the next big thing fault's going to be it I'm like, what about predecessor like fuck you who what's predecessor? It's never gonna come out fault fault fault fault fault now It's the same exact people have moved on from fault or in our our now predecessor Predecessor predecessor and that's kind of what it noise annoys me. It's like when metallica got really popular in the 90s and I like Like everybody in my high school is like oh metallica. I'm like fuck you. You didn't like him before always like metallica you Asshole. All right, so man. This was the hipster in the 90s. Yeah, he's finding out now Exactly. I I'm right there with you man. He's It's a double-edged sword to have a community like that as shown with core and fault Accordingly right is just as quickly as they are to defend you They will be just as fast to dump you if you turn on them Yeah And that's that's a terrifying thing to have Right. It's a great weapon, but it can be used against you really really fast and The thing I keep coming back to is we don't know what their monetization scheme is And that they that I think is the thing that could make or break that community so fast Because false monetization when it first came out people were pissed. Yeah And so if pred has that or worse It could easily go downhill from them. They keep saying that's gonna be free to play um But I'm not even there's a mean more to be honest At this point. I mean, maybe I'm like a weird old school kind of gamer But when I hear free to play I'm always immediately going like okay What kind of crazy micro transactions are you gonna throw into this game? How many currencies am I gonna need to keep track of like how much am I actually gonna be able to like Earn or feel like I'm you know gained some kind of prestige in your game If it's free to play or whatever at this point to be honest Maybe I'm again weird and people in the comments can play me I'd rather spend 40 bucks on a game and just have it be the game Like just give me 40 bucks And if you want to have like, you know a battle pass or some other way to continue to gain like, you know Revenue or whatever fine. I'm fine with that like but I'm tired of like insane micro transactions I'm tired of like Nickel and diming me to buy your currencies or and you know But you have to buy like you can't buy the five dollar currency because it's you know 30 crystals too short so you have to buy the ten dollar But then your leftover crystals aren't enough to be able to buy a different skin with it So now you have these 640 crystals that you have nothing to do with so you have to buy another five dollars. I hate it. I hate it So I'm I'm like if they go free to play that's fine They better have a really good monetization like jelly the same but like And but this applies to any of the games like it doesn't matter. I I'm of I have the money It's not about the money. I just am also not dumb. I'm not gonna see here and be pleased by a a game company For no reason for digital assets. I'm just not interested, you know, I just I don't know man Maybe I'm really gropey about it, but like I just I can't stand that stuff man. I'm tired of it All right, Fred has the investors that they could go free to play and not have too many micro transactions and Try and just sell skins if they could just if they can get all their money by selling cosmetics then More power to them Yeah, that's fine. I hope that's I hope that's what happens Um, cool Okay, um, that's all I had for predecessor was just that core design change. You guys have anything else? All right, let's move on to the topic of discussion which is uh You know reasonable chance of success for these games and uh, yeah I'm starting to think it's too late. I'm starting to think they took too long because I mean you see it. I think my channel is the perfect example. I've got what 12 000 subscribers It's rare that I get over 1500 views on a video even though I have 12 000 subscribers And it's because people float in they're like, oh paragon stuff. There's a new paragon. Oh, that's cool That's cool. And then they just kind of fade away when it does has come out in like six months So that's like so they subscribe, but that they never unsubscribe And so that's what's going on with my channel And I think that's very indicative of what's been going on with these games people get a little excited about it They fanboy about it a little bit and then they kind of just move on when I when nothing has happened in forever And stuff has finally happened and you got fault that's been out for like two years now, but still it's I think it's just too late. I think it's just too late I Yeah, I'm with you man goose. I think And there's a small amount of bias on this for sure, but I I truly believe That of the four that we talk about consistently Ethereal has the best chance because it's not paragon. It's not it's not associated in any way And I don't mean that as progress up till now. I just mean in general Looking at it from the outside Do you want new ip or old ip right? What happened with the old ip that we're bringing you back And that will always linger in the back of people's minds to an extent and we've talked about that with all of these games is At what points do they actually separate themselves from paragon? Right over primes gone balls to the walls in that regard But predecessor is following very closely in paragon's footsteps. And so is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? and it's it's a hard Thing either way and it could easily go to their detriment It could swing good at first and then swing bad later on because they're so much like paragon because We talked about it a couple weeks ago Paragon aside from the 10-sentence epic heads of epic reasons paragon was a declining player base for a while before it died And so it's hard It's it's that's a realization that people have to remember it wasn't just oh, yeah Everyone millions of players are playing the game all the time and then they suddenly randomly turned off the servers That's not what happened. And so it's hard for that. And so I think Of them being just concepts ethereal has the best chance being something different and new But they're all going to struggle. I mean even going back to what viking was saying earlier When you look at smite Having being in the third place of mobas right that people know about people recognize have name recognition of But it's such a distant third place that it may as well be 10th place Right like in comparison to the the big two being dota and we Right, that's a hard wall to crack I mean and I mean I we've all I think talked about this in length at this point, but I I mean Smite is not a bad attainable, right? Like smite is is doing fine Like they're they're making money off of smite, right and having 20,000 You know concurrent players and a loyal concurrent like it's it's pretty consistent Like they're they don't really drop and they might have like a big spike after like a major release or something like that Right people coming back and playing the game, but um, I yeah, I almost kind of agree that it might be Too little too late like that. I think that's the big one for me is it's just like Paragon while it was cool. It was a really good idea It failed to stay relevant And I think the reason why I failed to stay relevant is something that you guys have You know, we've all I think talked about and beat to death at this point It's a multitude of things, you know being able to just not keep up a consistent player base active and interested in the game And a lot of that could be with you know, the game is mechanics and you know monetization and and you know The barrier of entry for new players of struggling because I mean let's be honest league and dota aren't really Breaking in the new players, you know, there's not like a ton of new people Signing up to play that have never played a moba before they're almost always, you know It's already a consistent huge game just because the players that are playing that are playing it So I think with mobas in general It's just like it's already a steep learning curve and since none of these games are really capturing the ability to teach new players I just don't think that there there's anyone unless someone figures that out unless one of these new Teams figures out how to crack the learning curve I don't know if any of them would that are going to really break it they were it would need It would need like a lot of major creators Willing to spend a lot of time in it because we've seen games will flame high You know hood for example, they got shroud and they got lyric They got a bunch of these huge creators and it went boom through the roof It was huge everybody loved this game and then what a month later. It's in it's in the in the dog toilet like it's just So it's it's Yeah, man, I don't I don't know if there is anything they can do which which sucks I overprime was so fun. Like I really really liked overprime. Um To be honest as far as like predecessor you guys saying that's the closest to paragon That actually probably kind of puts me off part of the reason why I'm one of those players It stopped playing paragon was because I just wasn't having fun In those super sweaty lobbies and games that were going 30 to 45 minutes and people who were toxic and talk, you know And it was difficult to get people to get on board just to minor things like, you know show for objectives and stuff It was Frustrating it was annoying. It was hard You know, and I couldn't convince other people to jump on and play because of those exact reasons It's confusing and hard. So I don't know You could be right with ethereal being able to crack that because it's definitely Not paragon. It's a whole other type of game and if they do it well, which they have the opportunity to I suppose over You know as they continue to work towards it They could crack in and make something that feels so different that it'll still keep the people who are interested in paragon And have been following along I think we'll give it a try and they'll be excited to try it But it could also crack into a whole new player base that never even knew they wanted to play a game like this Which is exciting for them. But um, I don't know if predecessor or even over prime Realistically have to do that unless it's in a market. Um, that hasn't really been tapped yet. At least that's my opinion Well, I like that you bring up hood Because that's what happened with hood. That's what happened with fault And that's what i'm afraid is going to happen with both predecessor and over prime And we've even seen it during their free weekends like the first day huge spike of people the next day Like a third of those people are still playing um Like we definitely saw them with uh over prime having like their 11 day Post beta test not so much with predecessor But I think that we would probably see the same trend with predecessor Since we did see a pretty steep drop-off between their initial day and the final day, but um That i'm just very concerned about that Like I said, I think it might be too late. There's most of the paragon community has moved along I see that's another thing. I see comments all the time people like Yeah, I'm sorry. I just don't care about paragon anymore. Like it was a fun game and I remember it fondly, but I've moved on to other games, you know um, there's an aspect of it of like Aging out and I don't mean that like there are certain ages that like if you don't fit in this age range You shouldn't be caring about paragon, right? um, but I think it's it's Right for me I think about paragon very differently now than I did when it was when it was around Right, I was 19 in college, right die hard paragon player Right played it to hell and back And but I didn't have a full-time job, right? And so it's this now now Thinking about paragon now and even just games in general. It's different and I feel that there's there's a a with paragon being gone and none of these games having Captured that market again captured that essence fault being out for two years even still It's it almost feels like I've I've Aged to a point where it's like I can't connect in the same way with those games anymore That it's and it's not I don't even know how to describe it like it just feels Like it's time to move on like it's not A bad thing necessarily. It's just one of those things That it was great while it lasted, but here we are now I mean, I'm still looking forward to them like oh Yeah, don't get me wrong, but it's but I think the greater community. Yeah I think too like you mentioned ages like you know different periods of time people are looking for different things I think we've moved away from the ultra realistic People wanting like ultra realistic graphics in games because that's what brought a lot of people into paragon was helped Really beautiful and ultra realistic it looked It's let's look more like a sales shaded people want like People want a game to just have its own art style and then enjoy that art style now It people it's it's kind of gone away from that Um, so when they see like a paragon like games or not as excited about it It's something like the rising where it's not It's it's a cool art style, but it's certainly not photo realistic or anything like that and I think Hood's a prime example false is even an example in the community in the paragon community is Having diehards is not enough. Yeah, right. It's almost a detriment. Hood is a huge example of that, right? Bengi's you and I know a guy that plays hood on a weekly basis still to this day. No Ravens stop playing But so but even so that shows then even more. Yeah, he was playing weekly for almost a year With only 10 players online that he would have to coordinate lobbies with nine other players in order to get Or with seven other players to get people online Right, like that's not enough to keep a game alive. You have to do more than that And and hopefully fault gets to that point when they start their marketing push Right and any of these games honestly, but like you said, we saw with the over prime 11 day test They went down from 15,000 to like 4,000 or less than a third of their players at peak timing And it was a gradual decline the entire test Predecessor it was slightly more consistent in the higher numbers But that's because it was a shorter amount of time and so it's it's a hard thing But they're going to have to find a way around in some capacity I I like to root for fault because I think they've done great things I think strange matter has done as much shit as I gave them when they first came out like I think they've done great things and I'm amazed at how much they've been able to do with the tiny ass little player base Which can't be that much money coming in for them I'm amazed at how much they've been able to do however But I just want to be very open and honest fault has failed like they That games it's it's pretty much done. Um, they're there's gonna it's going to take something major for fault to come back online because When predecessor does come out the fault players are just going to go play predecessor And they all admit to it. Yeah, they all say it. They say it on stream Um, like you got bearded who's like hardcore fault and he'll he would never say that and he 100% means it like bearded loves Love's fault. Like you you you will have a handful that will stick with fault, but for the most part, they're just waiting for predecessor and uh Yeah, it's it's unfortunate Because I think the same thing that happened with fault is probably going to happen with predecessor people are going to be like The paragon nostalgia for like a couple weeks and then it's just going to keep falling and falling and falling Until they have a player base that's just toxic as fuck and Our hardcore players that are just beating the shit out of anybody new that tries to come in and play like it's It's going to be a rough road. Um I'm like that's why I wanted to have this conversation night because I'm I'm really starting to lose a little bit of faith I'm still interested to see what happens. I'm still really looking forward to playing all the games But man, I'm starting to start to lose the faith a little bit And I think I speak for all of us, but stop me if I don't I I think we want to be wrong about this Yeah, I said you do I I want fault to go free to play and get a million players, right? Realistically, it's not going to happen. But but still the idea, right? I want them to be successful I want them to go out and crush numbers. I want predecessor to come out and be a competitor to that I want over prime to come out and be and be a competitor to those things, right? Because competition breeds innovation, right and makes all of the games better and will make them better And force them to be better to compete. I think that's a great thing But I I hope we're wrong that that that they're not going to decline like that But I don't feel like we are I mean, I completely agree with with both of you. Uh, I mean One I guess separate point and you guys have kind of touched on it to me It's it's also just as much the responsibility of the communities like Fault in my opinion has done nothing Aggregiously wrong, right? They're not like, you know, doing anything terrible or, you know, giving a big like f you to their Their player base or anything like they've been since release in my opinion Now I'm not like a crazy fault follower, but I've watched and seen the updates come through because I have it still in my folder They're trying like they're putting out new content. They're listening to the players that are playing But I mean for me when I go into like reading reviews A new player with a few hours on will say I got into a lobby People were talking mean or they're saying this or I wasn't playing optimally and they weren't doing this And you end up with this this toxic fan base And I think that in in my opinion paragon Old school guys who are continuing to try and find the paragon reborn Are treating new players in new communities like garbage I know in our comments and a few of our other videos that we've done I have talked about that exact same thing. Oh, this is just the redo of this And that was terrible. No, no, no, no, I didn't like that because it's just like this and I hated that Like dude, they have to do something. They have to do something different They have to try and innovate they have to and you as a community member if you want to play a game like this You you got to like be supportive of those players that are coming in I mean when we were playing over priming you had all those people just Flaming new players and talking like shit and being just rude and it's like bro This is this is a play test. These are all like the numbers look good Like we want people here. Why are you trying to actively discourage people from playing the game by being rude to them? And I just drives me nuts Like if you guys are who are Hopefully watching this video You want one of your favorite games to be seen be an ambassador for it Stop treating new players Stop going into comments of every video that you see talking about paragon successors And talking shit about the game that you didn't like in the version that you didn't like Be more proactive in a positive nature and create The change that you want to see in this gaming space because otherwise it's not going to happen It's there the money's going to run out that they're going to these businesses are going to have a hard time Justifying continuing to invest in these servers and innovation and patches all that stuff again to man use this Paul the point the fact that fault has still managed to put out content With the player base as it is 150 to 200 players Any anybody else would have just dropped it. They would have just been like it doesn't work It's too expensive to keep this running. We're just going to let it go, but they've been trying So I guess that's my I mean final point because you guys have made great points I think as far as whether or not they can really recover. I don't know but Something has to change within the communities too These these predecessor fanboys like I mean, obviously you guys want your game to succeed But you know, there's no guarantee that it's going to so stop shitting on fault and stop shitting on over prime Because those are games that could potentially do just as good Be an active participant ask for the changes you want to see don't shit on the new players You know try and help players like help each other That's just something that to me has I think been a big driving force of why so many people just leave They just like I don't want to deal with this. I've got other games I can play that aren't going to treat me like garbage Especially in an online game I don't think um well something that you sort of implied but As as jen I alluded to like it's not it's not just um predecessor fanboys It's like over prime fanboys do the same thing The predecessor fault fanboys do the same thing to predecessor and over prime It's But like I like what you said be an ambassador be an ambassador, but don't be a white knight, you know what I mean 100 it's sure it's fucked up. Just don't be a troll Just because just yeah Something I've said before is high tide raises all ships Right and that applies across games honestly because if you are supportive of Like I mean us honestly we've talked about Fault over prime and predecessor and are bringing awareness to all three right if you're supporting all the games again It makes them compete with each other It makes them be better and at the end of the day the best game is going to come out and be the one that survives Right because we've talked about before at at best Maybe you get two of these games to survive, but there's no way all three making fruit there, right and So you should want all of these games to be the best that they absolutely can You should want all of these games to have as many players as they possibly can because at the end of the day Whichever one succeeds or whichever two succeed Will be better for it and that's more important than going out there and Shitting on one of these other games because you don't like how their mechanics work You don't like the other players you whatever whatever the thing is Right you should want all of these games to be better so they can make your favorite be even better than it already is I think right now I think predecessor has the best game in my personal opinion. However, I think over prime has far more of a chance of eventual success than predecessor does just because it is so wildly different for paragon and it's very fast paced and it's more of what The the greater community wants in a in a video game, I think I mean, I know that for me that was why I liked over prime so much Like it was exactly those things like I mean, I don't think I put this I think in the play test I put more hours in over prime than I put in all of fault um, so It because it was it was I mean it rewarded me for the time that I felt like investing in it You know what I mean and in a current gaming sphere where you know, there's a lot of titles You know, there's only so many hours in a day and I think for you know Us as we get older and you find that you have less time to do Said gaming, you know, you're you're going to start being picky and choosy with which games you're going to play I will always probably still keep league of legends on my computer Why because I can pick it up I can play a few games in like 30 minutes and and be happy and then not pick it up again for another month or two I feel like I could do that same thing with over prime I don't feel like I could do it with fault and if predecessor is similar as it was to paragon Then I'm gonna feel like I'm always behind like I'm never going to feel like I can jump in and feel like I can make Like, you know, get caught up because it's like all the meta shifted so drastically this way and it's so sweaty And it's so competitive and it's this and there's no fun game modes So you can only play the sweaty aggressive, you know game And it's gonna be a 30 to 45 minute grind fest where you're trying to learn everything and people are you So, yeah over prime was I mean, I don't know if we need them at nine or 10 minute games, but They're gonna fix that's definitely gonna get fixed But you know, I liked the speed of it. I liked travel mode. I liked it I like I mean, I know that those were things that we didn't like in paragon I get that but this isn't paragon And I don't think it should be held to those same standards of paragon Like in travel mode in this game to me felt good because you wanted to get out there and be active in the map You wanted to be able to get from lane to lane and feel your presence and you know With the portals being on the side they want activity. They want movement and and and I liked that at least for For me as far as like of the three that I think I would play I'm leaning more towards over prime just because of the speed of it all and Hopefully there's some aspects of being able to add in more strategy and make it more competitive and all that stuff While keeping some of the past paced fun aspects of it I think ethereal I think they have a really good shot at actually becoming successful, but Like in the in your marketing jelly you guys go after like let people know right up front that this is a complicated moba That they're going to have to put time into learning Like if people think that because people do come into it They get it's going to be a pick up and play that it's going to be That if they know how to play paragon that they can play ethereal, but god damn it. It is not it is a very complicated moba, so You know what I mean that way Jedi Yeah, oh 100% and I think I told that to jelly when you brought me in as a tester, uh, you know a few months ago Like when I got in there, I was like, oh, this will be easy. I you know, I played all kinds of mobas I played paragon. I played fault recently like it'll be fine No, like I mean it's got some Very it's got some parts like yes, you kill minions. Yes, you buy items, but oh boy It's it's a whole beast into itself. It's actually to me I felt I feel like it's got a lot more rpg elements to it Which I think it's kind of cool the way that the buffs are set up the jungles set up like all those things feel A lot more pve And pvp oriented, which is not necessarily a bad thing But I agree with the learning curve again I think a team the team that comes up with a good way of creating like a really solid Fun tutorial to teach new players and you know players that have maybe played mobas before The concepts that they're going to need for their game, especially maybe like ethereal Ah man, that could be huge because ethereal's got some really cool stuff like they do like it's You bring up that the tutorial is actually what I was about to get into as well Is the tutorial and the way the marketing is set up are the two legs? They're going to prop up a theory. Yes without those both being successful The theory is going to fall over and there's no question about it And I know the team is very very aware of that concept Right and so it's it's you need to have the marketing in there. So people have at least a toes dip of understanding of what they're getting into Or they touch it and then the tutorial has to take them the rest of the way It has to be able to show you press shift to fly when you're playing on a sky slayer Sky slayers have wings whatever they're going to have right And then if you there are three lanes you can jump from filing down to void lane you can do these things it has to be Honestly, it probably has to be one of the most in-depth tutorials of any game or most games that I've seen What the heck that was weird? Randomly happened of any game that I've played in at least recent memory Right, it's going to have to be something It's going to have to be a games like tutorial where you go like I'm like, I'm sorry But we got to get this information into you for you to understand how to get into this If you put a sense of humor into the narrator for the for the tutorial, I think that would help quite a bit Guide people through it I mean to me there's absolute opportunity for creative Game developers to make a tutorial fun. Like you can if you make the game tutorial a game into itself Like and you add in the elements of gamifying and and introducing things in a in a smart, you know Mental, I think that there's absolutely An opportunity for to be very very successful even in a very over-the-top complex game like ethereal is probably going to be Uh, I definitely think it's possible. But again, it's going to require a lot of resources and time and hammering it down and I you know, hopefully ethereal has the Time and resources to be able to do that exact thing I mean, I think uh false tutorial is a is a good example of What ethereal can't do? I won't say it doesn't work for fault. That's I'm not going to get into that but A false tutorial is a video the first time you load up the game. That is just a hardcore info dump and that Even knowing how the game works which partially turned me off of it in general I sat there and went please god, let me skip this Like let me out. I cannot I'm not going to sit here and just let you dump info on me Well, I just have to sit here and take it like that's not That's not engaging that doesn't help me learn and that could just be my learning style, right? But it's it needs to be something that you said you need to be gamified. It needs to be fun It needs to be engaging needs to be Something that when when you get into an actual game You go the tutorial told me if I jump and press shift I can fly right like you need to intuitively remember what was taught to you It can't just be a hard info dump or press q. Oh, look thing happened press e Oh, look thing happened right like it needs to be more Yeah, I completely agree I mean and I would even go like you with the ui stuff like you know small overlay texts saying you know That eventually after you've played enough times it it goes away, right? You or you can even straight up just turn it off in the settings or something like that like turn off tutorial tips or whatever I I think anything like that to to continue to you know, I mean over prime actually had a I think a pretty good job Like showcasing like, you know, hey, you pick this lane. This is where you're going You know and explain some of the buffs like, you know, I thought that that was that was pretty good I mean it still needs to be fleshed out a lot, but um, yeah If those those types of things I think you're just going to be that and finding the right creators when your game comes out to promote it I don't think you need to lean on your your current You know fault creators not that you shouldn't include them absolutely include them But I think they really do need to reach out and find some people from the league of legends community Find people from the smite community find people from the dota community like hey come and try this This isn't league. This isn't dota. This is a new game That's very much its own thing But it kind of has some of those elements and it's fun and cool and if they I think do that like I mean, I don't know who they would get but they you know, there's an opportunity there I think it could help and that applies to any of these not just ethereal, but like I think ethereal has the opportunity with the new mechanics that are kind of coming into play to branch pretty far out and get some pretty decently sized communities to participate and Get those eyeballs that need to be on the game for it to be successful You got cool, but they got cool heroes. That's what's gonna bring people in A lot of most part nothing I think it was with bearded man goose, but we talked about Fishing ponds as an example, right? The the paragon projects are all pulling from a smaller But more concentrated pond Right and so that they it's maybe easier to get fish at first, but at the end of the day It will eventually run dry Right and whereas ethereal kind of has that more broadened pond, but it's less condensed so At the they can potentially go for longer But they have to get enough to survive at first. Yeah, and so that's that's a start contrast between the paragon successors and ethereal in that regard and and I and I think I said it for ethereal, but I think it honestly applies to all of them The the the two legs for them to stand on it's going to be marketing and tutorials That's at the end of the day what it's going to come down to For them to to for any of them to make it in varying levels to be sure on both aspects, but those are the big The cornerstones that they have to get right and we've seen faults has Tutorial side Kind of figured it out. We've got the co-op versus ai mode now Right, it's not 100 but it's better, but their marketing side suffers and so they're they're leaning sideways And you can you can definitively tell that right predecessor similar thing You've got the the gameplay aspects there the marketing side. They're relying purely on paragon refugees to come in there, right But overprime has a decent amount of both that they're doing good outreach They're doing and they got their trailer on ign for instance, right? That's not hard to do But that is a big step in a marketing side of things To get your game out in front of a different pond or to move your rod to a different pond right like to go Do these other things and then they have their tutorial inside and so they they've got the most solid footing, I think to go forward at the moment And it shows it shows with their numbers Um, they're not Again, um over prime isn't nearly as popular in north america and europe as as predecessor, but I think it's asia It's way more popular. I think Go to if you go to like south korea and ask about predecessor nobody's going to know what the fuck you're talking about you ask the community about Overprime they're going to know exactly what you're talking about I don't know I think i've exhausted my uh What I wanted to talk about um, do you guys have any final Thoughts on the topic before we close it out for tonight? um no, I mean I guess the thing is is I don't want to leave on a sour note, but like I mean I I I hope that it's not too far past I guess like you know with your initial introduction on whether or not time has Already passed the opportunity I'm hopeful that it's not like I do think that there's an opportunity for a game like this Or these types of games to exist in the gaming market. I happened I must have missed it But I I want there to be one of those games. I don't know which one will succeed I of course love it if they all got a huge boost, you know I don't know like you know the otv guys decide to jump on fault for some weird reason and start playing it And it gets a huge boost like among us that you know That it's something like that would be super cool I I do think that there is an opportunity the problem has been the reach out And other than the initial success of paragon I just don't know if any of these other games are are investing as much I think as they should in those two legs as jelly put it in tutorial and marketing Um, and so I I really hope it's not too far gone because I would love to get an opportunity to play one of these games on a bigger scale than they currently are But jelly any final comments? Uh tons For all of you out there and main goose and I are starting our own paragon successor projects We're calling it if you're a gone. Okay, there we go No, I think I think we've kind of Exhausted the well on this right? It's It's definitely going to be a task If I if I put odds on it right the 80 20 failure to success right that they the odds are against all of these projects And it's going to be hard to overcome that but it's not it's going to be Impossible for them either Right there there is the chance and then the more they do the better those odds become for them Right the the better their marketing is the more the better their tutorial is increase those odds right the better outreach to the like a teleporting cat sometimes man um But I I think that's the biggest takeaway and like I said before High tide races all shifts right like you we we want all of these to succeed So that if only one can succeed, it's the best it possibly can be going forward. It's really hard to keep Going with this while you've got uno there um But yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens mangoes. We've said before Right that in a year in two years. How are we going to look back and think this is different, right? When core when core and predecessor were the main two Right, nobody thought that we'd be out here now with over prime and faults at the same time Like it's it's it is ever adapting ever changing and Could go any way from here, honestly I think uh any final thoughts I have uh, I just had an idea when we were talking about ethereal and the tutorial I think you need to get a clear thomas um Voice of khalia to do a stupidly violent tutorial The inner inner khalia voice. Oh god, that'd be that'd be great One of my favorite yeah That's what we got her to say. That's right Oh, shit. All right. Well That's going to wrap it up for this. We all plugs plugs uh viking. Uh, you want to plug your youtuber anything? Uh, yeah, I mean, um, obviously, um beta boys has officially launched. I think beta males Jesus Um, and uh, yeah, we're gonna be um, I think we've got a few games lined up Of course in the comments of uh, either the video that we just put out uh more in this one if you have ideas No matter what I think it'll get to us. We would love to hear your suggestions Um, I think we're gonna try and do one on v rising. I think it's the the next one. Um, possibly Um, and then after that, you know, who knows we'll see but uh, that's that's all I got man It's been a lot of fun gaming with you boys And jillie Uh, keep an eye out 2030. Aetheragon's gonna come out. So we're we're gonna start development right now Um, we've got a couple years to go before it comes out, but you know, I'll be live streaming all of our development aspects So aetheragon can be the best game it possibly could be Uh, no, I I will probably start streaming again. I've got a different setup I did that so I can motivate myself to stream a little bit more. Um, so get back to streaming I've been debating making youtube content again. We'll see if I end up doing that But uh, yeah, I think that's it for me. What about you man, goose? I'm just going to start my I'm going to start a resurrection project for hood just like processor did for paragon How many was kind of doing that? Before we get into that That was gonna close all these projects need funding by the way guys. So uh, feel free, you know start sending donations and Yeah, aetheragon's got a uh, twitter a paypal Nothing else It's another project gora. We got this is ftm 69 use. I'm so proud. It is it is I'm not gonna go back and count and be like actually the last one was 69 this one's 70 Anyway, let's go close it out for this week. Appreciate uh, appreciate you all coming out Uh, let's know down in the comments below what you think think about the possible success The future of all these games, but for now, this is the four of the minions crew signing off you guys Have a good one It's my thing. It's my thing. He did it. All seductively though. He didn't shivy the shoulders. He rolled him He didn't even have like the finesse behind it like a man goose Special shout out to channel members. I blood hunter jelly knees meow mix for men's stunt raven and blastoise king