 Okay, so I'm going to get us started. I'm going to get us started, so welcome everybody. Thank you for coming. This is a terrific turnout. I'm excited by that. As many of you probably know, I'm Andy Horowitz. I'm the assistant dean for experiential education here at the Law School, which means in addition to my day job of teaching in the criminal defense clinic, I also have oversight responsibilities for all of our experiential education programs and the ones we're going to be talking about today are our clinics and our externship programs. So we're going to do a little bit of what may feel like speed talking because the very nice thing to be able to report is over the trajectory of our history at the Law School, we have continued to build and develop experiential education programs so that we now have a very full and robust menu of these programs. So covering it in an hour is a little bit of a challenge and what I'll say before I get going is I assume what all of my colleagues who teach and direct these programs will also tell you really your best source of information for most if not all of these programs is to talk to students who are presently in them or have been in them in the past because they can obviously provide a very different perspective than those of us who teach and run the programs can. Okay, so let me start here with what's the difference when I use the word clinic, when I use the word externship which we call clinical externships to add to the confusion and then we have this third category. So boil down to its essence. A thing we call a clinic, an in-house clinic is where the attorney of record in the cases that that clinic or program are handling the attorney of record is a full-time member of our faculty. So in my criminal defense clinic I am the attorney of record on all of our cases. You folks, those who are enrolled are student attorneys and you work on these cases under my supervision. But that model creates the ability for me and those of us who teach in the in-house clinic to give you a tremendous amount of personal individual responsibility for each of these cases because this is the only job we have to shepherd you in those cases. An externship in some contrast is where you go out to some existing office. It can be a judge's chambers, it can be a corporate council office, it can be any of a whole wide array of public interest or governmental offices. And your supervisor on the cases is a lawyer who's employed by that entity. They're not a faculty member here at the law school and you work with them in that capacity. And then a component of all of those programs is a two credit seminar that's taught by a member of our faculty who sort of puts coherence around that experience and is in constant contact with the field supervisors and making sure that what's happening at the placement site is educationally sound, consistent with your educational goals, etc. So, right, a clinic has a faculty supervisor, real clients, externships, you go to a field site, your supervisor is an attorney or a judge, although judges are of course also attorneys, and there are likewise real clients in real cases. This third category, we run a program called the Veterans Disability Field Clinic. It's a bit of a hybrid between a clinic and an externship because the attorney of record is an adjunct member of our faculty. You'll meet her shortly. There she is. She'll get up and tell you a little bit more. But she works at a law firm and the program is located essentially within the confines of a law firm. So, it's a little bit of a mix of the two experiences. Okay, so, commitment. In our in-house clinics, on average, although this is really on average, because when you're doing real cases, work fluctuates, on average 20 hours a week, you get eight graded credits for it. Those clinics meet as classes for four hours a week, but that's all rolled into the eight credits. An externship program, you design your own with the externship director about how many days a week, and you can work two, three, four, or five days a week. If you're working five days a week full-time, we call that a semester in practice. Those field credits, the credits you're getting for working in the field under the supervision of some attorney or judge, who's not one of our employees, are ungraded credits, but the seminar component that's taught by a member of our faculty is a graded seminar for two credits. Again, the field clinic is sort of a hybrid. You're expected to devote 15 hours a week for six graded credits, and like the in-house clinics, you get one unified grade. We don't differentiate grading the sort of casework and the work in the classroom component. Okay, so I mentioned semester in practice. This is a relatively new experience that the faculty adopted here, where we are prepared with permission, so everybody who does externship in practice needs to meet with me and talk through their educational plan, and the sooner the better, because it has implications on other classes you're going to register for and how you're going to map out satisfying all your graduation requirements. But with permission, you can, in any of the externship programs we're going to talk about today, do it as a semester in practice, where that is the only thing you're doing that semester. We make the fieldwork and the seminar that goes along with it. We make one exception in terms of what we allow you to take on top of that, and that is the ALR class, which is our bar prep class. We figure out how to do that remotely for people who are doing a semester in practice remotely, because since you're working in this environment full-time, you don't need to be located here in Rhode Island if you've got an externship somewhere else in this country, or in fact, we've done some international ones, and you sort of Skype in, it's not literally Skype, but you participate remotely in the seminar component of the class. We have two specialized programs that are semester in practice. One is a program we run in Washington, D.C. every spring. We have a former full-time tenured faculty member who left his faculty position, in the government now in Washington, D.C., but the law school employs him to direct a program where people who are working in externships full-time in Washington, D.C. have their own specialized program and their own specialized class taught by professors a lot of it. The other one is the New York Pro Bono Scholars program. That's a program that is essentially run by the, in a certain way, run by the New York State Bar. What that program entails is that you can actually take the bar exam. It would be the New York bar exam, but the New York bar exam is UBE, Uniform Bar Exam. So that applies to lots of other states, including Moving Forward Now, Rhode Island. You take that bar exam in February of your third year, and then in March through June of your third year you're in a full-time public interest externship program. You graduate, literally you walk in May with your classmates, but you literally graduate in June when you've completed all of the requirements, and you can then immediately, if the bar has gone successfully, begin to practice law. So that's a very appealing program for a variety of folks. The externship connected to that has to be a public interest externship, and likewise this is something that if you're even remotely interested in, you can be talking to me as soon as you can, because it requires a great deal of advanced planning. Okay, so credit options you can take these programs in combination, right, so you can take a clinic and an externship, even if that externship is a semester in practice. You can take two clinics, you can take two externships within limits, you can't do semesters in practice because there is a cap on the number of clinical credits you can earn. So the credit counting is a little bit complicated, not I think worth trying to sort out collectively today, but the point is think about the fact that you can have multiples of these experiences and talk to us to get counseling to begin to plan whatever experiences you may want to have. This word advanced speaks to the fact that you can come back to a program that you already did once if the director thinks that it will continue to be a valuable educational experience for you in a somewhat more limited setting in terms of the number of credits you can earn. Okay, so this is our roster for clinics. We have the business startup clinic, criminal defense and immigration clinic we're each going to talk a little bit about our individual programs, the veterans disability field clinic and then I'm not going to read the list but this is the list of expertships that you're going to hear about. Okay, so we are going to talk now individually about these programs and first I'm going to ask Professor Hearn to talk about her program. So they have a secret seat from law school so I'll grab a standard. I'm Kate Hearn, I run the business startup clinic which is a transactional program meaning we are not doing litigation a little bit different than the other clinics you are about to hear about. So we serve small businesses, entrepreneurs and some nonprofits as well who are just getting started. So let me give you a snapshot of where we are right now. The students have just been through most of their ramp up in the first few weeks so they've done a class on nonprofits and business organizations and they've done interviewing simulations, counseling simulations, they've had an intellectual property class they're about to have a class with our intellectual property supervisor who's out in the community, I'll tell you about that in a moment and he's going to teach them how to do trademark searches, they're about to interview their clients that are their responsibility everyone has their own clients for the first time they will meet their clients and soon they'll be working on things like advising on intellectual property strategies. So do you need a trade secret, do you need a trademark, do you need a copyright, how does all that fit together? We do not do patents we don't have enough science and engineering at the moment. There we're going to be writing contracts and forming businesses and advising entities on how to get started where I expect we're going to start at least a few new nonprofit organizations this semester and put them out into the world and they will also be out in the community doing presentations so there are organizations in Rhode Island that also support entrepreneurs and we go out into the community to give presentations on similar topics. The only thing to know is that we are part of the intellectual, the USPTO US Patent and Trademark Office intellectual property clinic program so that means our clinic is part of this program and our students get to do intellectual property work in essence practice before the USPTO as part of that we have an external supervisor as well that we work with who helps on our more sophisticated trademark matters as well and the last thing to know is that there is a prerequisite for this course which you will see you do need to take the business class before so like many of these clinics there is a lot of planning involved as early on as possible and I will be around after this if anyone has any questions and you can also find me by email. Thank you. Good morning. I'm up next in the roster so I direct the criminal defense clinic so the criminal defense clinic functions essentially like a mini public defender's office I'll take as many as 10 students each semester those students will after a ramp-up period at the beginning where we do a lot of training and simulation get their own caseload on average students in the criminal defense clinic will handle five or six clients over the course of the semester what we're handling are predominantly misdemeanor criminal cases so all of our clients are people who are indigent can't afford to hire their own lawyer would otherwise generally be sent to the public defender's office or to a court-pointed council but instead come in our direction and the student is individually responsible for his or her clients the design of the program is that I have very little direct interaction with the client because part of the purpose is for you to be establishing an attorney-client relationship with the client and for the client to look to you as the lawyer not to me as the lawyer this is sort of the beauty of the luxury we have in a clinic where I have the ability to handle these cases this way in a way that a public defender with a full caseload really can't there are incredibly valuable reasons to do an externship with the public defender's office if you're interested in that field these are very different experiences what I generally encourage for people who are interested in this work specifically is to try to do both because I think there's a lot of value in both experiences what you're getting in the clinic is a very small exposure to very few cases but you're working those cases hard and individually you do the interview you investigate the case you counsel the client you negotiate with the prosecutor if the case winds up being tried which sadly very few of our cases do mostly if we have really interesting or viable defenses the prosecution relents and dismisses the case so that his reality across the country is very few misdemeanors get tried that's true in here in Rhode Island so if you're desperately looking for a trial experience this is the wrong program for you if what you're looking for is an experience with working closely with clients and building cases up through the trial preparation stage and thinking through the strategies and playing all that out in a negotiation context and appearing in court this is the program for you because that's what we do about a third of our case load generally are crimes of domestic violence of course we're representing a person accused of being violent in a domestic setting we do sometimes represent what we call complaining witnesses people who are alleged to be the victim of domestic violence who sometimes are in need of counsel and we'll do that too we do a lot of representation of people on drunk driving cases we do a lot of representation of people on breathalyzer or chemical test refusal cases that go along with the DUI those charges are civil in nature so they take us over to the Rhode Island traffic tribunal people do not have a right to appointed counsel on those cases so we serve a particularly valuable function in the clinic in representing people in that court class you need to have in order to make the schedule work so that court is not interfering with classes and vice versa you need to schedule your semester where you have three days a week where you do not have class until late afternoon or evening because the clinic is eight credits that's usually not particularly hard for students to do and there is a prerequisite you need to have taken trial advocacy before you can be in the criminal defense so I think I'll stop there but as Katie said I think we'll all be around we'll hopefully have some time for questions and you can always reach out to anyone of us so yep, next Hello I'm Debbie Gonzalez I'm the director of the immigration clinic my clinic runs very similar to Professor Horowitz clinic in that we represent indigent clients who can't afford to pay immigration proceedings we go to immigration court in Boston we also represent a lot of children and family court and in probate court as well as going to immigration in Johnston so you're really doing a lot of court this semester for example all of my students are having at least one court experience going to Boston or the family court probate court two or three so I'm somewhere between Katie and Andy in that my students already have their cases they've had their cases for about a week we really have no time for simulation in the immigration clinic it's kind of a here you go I am there I am the safety net for all of the students so it's not like you're all just swimming without your swimming zone swimming yeah we have a substantive class component so immigration isn't a prerequisite I give you all of that it's top heavy in the sense that the beginning of the semester is a lot of immigration law it's learning your case it's meeting with your client it's interviewing the client preparing for a trial you're doing all of the things a lawyer does in an immigration case so interviewing and counseling is the theory of your case in some instances the theory may have already been developed by the student before you because these cases go on for years and years but every student towards the mid of the semester will get one new consultation that they'll do with a new client wherein as a class we decide whether or not we're taking that case or not so everybody will have the opportunity to meet with the client to make that assessment if you don't we also do community service work which requires, I require every student to sign up for at least one time where we're going to progress the Latino and partner up with them and we do individual consultations to members of the community we do do a simulation for the consultations but personally I have no idea what the consultations are going to look like because these are people just showing in the door looking for some advice and that's what we're there to do this semester I'm super excited because we finally got an agreement with the police office where we'll be doing consultations with the public defender so in Rhode Island the public defender's office does not have an attorney who does immigration work and so we have now become kind of their immigration attorney not in that we're going to represent people but in that we will be able to advise the public defender what the best course of action is going to be on the case so I've talked about the substantive class real client representation and community service I think I'm going to leave it there I unfortunately have to go because I have class in Providence at 2 but you can email me it's Dean Gonzales at rwu.edu if not I'm sure Lori or at least somebody can get you in touch with me my name is Dana Wiener I'm going to talk about the hairpin it's really difficult to get out of these chairs it's actually very difficult yeah so I teach the veterans disability field clinic we are based at the law firm of Chisholm Chippen and Propatrick in downtown Providence and we are an appellate law firm so it's a little bit unique and we represent clients from all over the country with regard to their veterans disability appeals so when veterans are denied their disability benefits we work on the appeal to try to get those denials reversed and so the clinic is really unique because students come in from the beginning we assign them a case so they work on a real case of a real client from the firm they spend the first few weeks getting to know the client getting to know the file so within I would say two weeks they know pretty much everything about this person and the years of struggle that they've gone through to get their benefits and the first half of the semester we work on general CAFA about veterans disability some deference stuff some admin law and we work on a memorandum of law that they'll actually present to VA to their Office of General Counsel VA will look at it and then the clinic student will participate in a settlement conference with VA to see if we can get this client's case settled and that's something that I'll supervise the clinic student actually sort of takes the lead on and I really don't do anything except sit in and listen the second half of the semester will be more of the oral advocacy part of the pellet work and so the student will work on an oral argument and the final in the mock oral argument where the judges are other attorneys after the firm and so it's a really nice way to get some experience with the market that's something you're interested in so our goals are really twofold to get the veterans experience have some real clients get the law firm experience and then also just you know the basic skills and what it's like to work in a law firm to gain those oral advocacy skills the writing skills and just the basic learning skills I'm around if you have any questions of course after and I've got emails while I'm located in Providence so I'm not here on campus I'm available right now I'll manage it okay we're going to shift gears now to start talking about our clinical externship programs I get the stereo so so just reiterating so everything you've heard about you're directly supervised by a faculty member in the externship program we send you out there you're supervised by a lawyer or judge in the field but we keep you tethered to the law school or a seminar that meets once a week so just generally in the externship program when you apply and you submit a resume sometimes we'll have you submit a writing sample or a cover letter your materials are very important because those are the materials that we're going to send to the office so you should work hard on those materials before you submit them because they're the ones that will be going out so basically you'll apply to the program we'll accept you to the program and then each director will meet with you individually to figure out where we're going to place you and we make those placements so you'll come to us we'll talk through with you the various options and then we'll decide where we're sending your materials and we'll always send them to one place that you agree on and then you'll interview and the placement has the right of you know they can take you or refuse you if they don't want you we'll find you another place no one almost hardly ever anybody turned down by the one place that we send them to so our seminars are all different some of them are sort of substantive and doctrinal in the substantive area some of them are more general for instance the public interest seminar that I teach because you're all doing different kinds of law okay everything is offered most things are offered in the fall and the spring near pro bono scholars and the dc semester practice program are only offered in the spring as is the environmental and land use is only in the spring we also offer two programs in the summer so corporate council and public interest and public interest also includes prosecution okay but I'll go through this in a little more detail but we're going to come up one by one I think that David Gibbs is next hi I'm David Gibbs I run the corporate council program basically with a flip side of katia hern's program her students are working with people with you know problems who are ventures the corporate council we're basically working with very large companies that are national and global and you're working in an in-house office so I'm not your supervisor and one of the most interesting things about that is you have an attorney-client relationship with the company with which you're working I'm not their attorney so confidentiality is very important I can help you your fellow students can help you but it has to be at a level where the client's confidentiality is always preserved because they're not their attorneys and so you'll work with these in-house lawyers how do I do this next okay so these are some tell her clap for them the probability says you can't be wrong all the time these are some of the companies we work with not every company not every semester we do it a little differently we send your resume typically to three companies but we meet we find out what you're most interested in and we try to do matching and then you interview and as Lori Barron said we've never had a problem placing people and people typically get their first choice and we give the companies their first choice people are generally what type of things do people do they do things that relate to their company so we have someone who does a semester in practice at the Red Sox this semester and she's working on a sweep stakes issue where they're giving away a benefit but not to everybody we had people who were working on cross border problems where Canada and the U.S. have different employment policies what does the company do and so some of the problems relate to the nature of the company Swarovski we haven't had too many jewelry problems but they make a lot of other things and so it's just whatever the cat drags in whatever problem the company has they come and these are some of our companies we do semester in practice the Red Sox is a semester in practice we had somebody at Nestle's in New Jersey last spring and that you need to plan ahead oh what areas do we work on I think I kind of covered that basically everything I can't tell you what you're going to do we sent someone to a Moran shipping who was interested in maritime law they had a hurricane last year in their offices and they were doing all this landlord tenant with force majeure because that was the problem the company had three, four, five days it's like everyone else I do want to make a pitch for business most of you will have four to six careers in your legal career more lawyers do business than any other area of the law and so you're at a school that has great programs and I would recommend public interest clinic and externship take full advantage and take two if you have questions call me see me I'll be around yep you think I need to grab it I can do it next button there you go I'm Julia Wyman I direct the marine affairs institute but here I also direct environmental externship program so for those of you that think of me as marine affairs we do all ocean and coastal the environmental and land use externship program is to really look at some of the broader environmental issues that are facing us and some land use issues like all of the other programs you can do two, three, four, five days in your placement for this externship we have four placements and they're very different so we have the conservation law foundation which is here in Providence the Providence city solicitors office the AG's environmental unit and the department of environmental management here in Rhode Island all of the issues that potentially can come across your plate are very different and depend on the semester so if you're interested in the externship program right before you apply you can come meet with me and talk about some of the cases that may be brought in some of those different placements during your time there important things to note so a lot of these placements do have heavy litigation so if you're interested in being an environmental litigator this is a good place for you to explore that depending on the placement and depending on where they're at in terms of litigation you may get the opportunity to really spend some time in court or you may be doing more discovery and background research for them we do offer this program only in the spring so that's definitely something to think about especially those of you that are 2Ls in the room if you are thinking about doing a joint degree program not just the marine affairs joint degree program here you're going to want to think heavily about and you're considering this program you want to think strongly about doing it during your second year of law school because it may be a little bit easier to balance with a tactic schedule in your third year some of the issues you might come across in this externship clean water issues energy issues, oil and gas issues zoning regulations where should we put this building should we allow these people to build this building air quality issues really runs the gamut we do have a prerequisite for this environmental law natural resources ocean and coast law or land use if you're really interested in the program and you haven't taken any of those courses I'm willing to make exception but you need to sort of make an argument to me on that during the seminar we also don't necessarily have access to your attorney client privilege in your placement we're going to focus a lot on environmental and administrative law issues in general so we'll be doing a little bit one on one on those and then also talking about how the environmental and land use field functions and the kinds of issues that will regularly come up in the field I think that that's it I will also be around so happy to answer any questions that you guys have okay so I'm going to talk next about the judicial externship program which is taught by D. Nielnowski I taught it for many years so I'm comfortable talking about it so this is the program that many 2Ls will want to do in the spring of their 2L a year and just by a show of hands how many of you are 2Ls in here and we have some 3Ls so this fall 3Ls are applying only for the right now this application period is only for the spring okay and then in the spring 2Ls will be applying for all of next year so it will be applying to the fall and the spring of next year so there are slots open for 3Ls in the spring in not every program but many of them but the judicial externship program is one that is really heavily populated by spring 2Ls so we have placements with all of the judges in Rhode Island at all levels of courts so we have students with Judge Thompson and Judge Salia who are the first circuit court of appeals which is as good as it gets unless you're at the U.S. Supreme Court and those students will go to Boston to hear oral arguments although the offices are located here we have students in federal district court with federal magistrates and even the court and even immigration court so this really is great for students who think they might want a clerk after they graduate because you'll see what it's like to work in judicial chambers to write opinions to sit still for that long see if that's something that appeals to you it's also great for students who don't want a clerk but they want the experience you want to work on your research and writing, you want to know how judges think but you think you don't want a clerk for two hours it is the real world and judges care about things like grades and law review and your writing but not all of the judges care about those things so you don't select yourself out because we have many judges who say I don't want the kids at the top of the class I want to work with somebody who might never clerk and try to bring them along and other judges are like give me the top ten and that's all I want so don't select yourself out the seminar is taught by Justice Flaherty on the Red Island Supreme Court and Chief Judge Will Smith who is the Chief Judge of the Federal District Court so it is not you took this class, right? so they are they are comedy so they are lively and fun and it really is a great chance to be in a room with ten to fifteen students and have complete access to these judges it's a great experience the judges that you work with your clerks they'll give you the materials for a case and say you tell me how you think this should come out and you write the opinion they might not follow they might not do what you said they should do but they'll at least give you that opportunity so this is a great program that students should take advantage of next program is the one that I teach in the fall and the spring and Susie Harrington Steppen teaches this in the summer and this is this is the public interest externship and I have students all over doing all different kinds of things we have merged the prosecution placements into this program for this year so that you know there are public defender placements civil legal services placements prosecution placements the sky's the limit obviously our seminar can't focus on doctrine and substance because we're all doing completely different things we have students who do a semester of practice and go other places and zoom into class so this semester I have somebody these are two 3Ls we're both graduating in December I've got somebody doing innocence work in Florida just literally move down there doesn't know anybody and he's got a case that's his and it's his job to convince the lawyers in the office that they should take this case either that there's newly discovered evidence or some constitutional issue that happened below we've got a student in Mississippi who's doing death penalty cases and he missed class one night because he literally had to travel like 10 hours to meet with a client on death row really heavy stuff and I've got a student who's in Suffolk County New York as a district attorney and she's on the feet every day she's got a student practice rule and it's a place she'd like to work when she gets out of here so they zoom into the class so really the sky's the limit for what you want to do I love working with students to find new placements and since our semester of practice program started maybe 3-4 years ago my favorite thing is to sort of start meeting with you in the spring of your 2L year and figure out where you're going to go so I've got a bunch of students who've got a bunch of interviews and we're figuring it out for the spring but we started last spring so okay so that's public interest I think we'll turn it back over to you so we have a video yes so let me just give a very brief introduction and then he's going to magically appear by video so as I said he lives and works in DC he's actually a lawyer at FERC the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but what he does is assist students in finding placements in DC although a lot of that is also on the student to work collaboratively to find placements but a whole host of placements government non-profit trade organizations and once you're enrolled in the program you're living and working in DC and you're in a two credit seminar that's taught physically in DC by professors live so help me in these this is a big one I am working in DC program and I'm speaking to you from my office at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission work for the last five years I have been in the office of the enforcement before that I was at the faculty for 15 years but before DC where I started my career brought me back and I'm excited to share this city and these experiences when they come down the program is actually very unique in that it offers you the opportunity to work 40 hours a week full time for a government agency or a non-profit and that gives our program a great advantage because so many other externship programs are just two or three days a week for local students and so we've had a lot of success placing students in programs that they really want to be in that's also because Washington DC actually government is here but so are all the public interest groups non-profits and associations that work on national policy issues you also have the opportunity to do a wide variety of work if you're interested in impact litigation if you're interested in research if you're interested in advocacy if you're interested in government regulation there are huge opportunities to do different kinds of work and I think that also makes this program appealing but rest assured I will always make the time for the students whether it's later in the day or in the evening to talk to you before you come here or while you're here to help you have a great experience the other things I wanted just to tell you a little bit about the course in some respects it's similar to the other externship courses run by the school now we focus on the kinds of skills that students need to succeed their externships learning how to ask for and receive feedback whether it's learning how to write for a professional setting and adapt your writing to the setting of agency or group that grant but I also focus the course on the kind of problem solving which after all is what lawyers do in almost every context to the DC setting and I do that both for working with things that the students are working on and also by bringing in the staff here who are mid or late career to talk about particular issues or problems that they were faced with early in their career and the mix of legal analysis policy and in fact just personal relationships and how they were able to work out difficult issues that they found at some point in their career the last thing I would add is that DC is a very vibrant city just in the last 10 or 15 years restaurants and neighborhoods that were sort of no walk zones are now filled with cafes there are lots of housing opportunities particularly because the metro system is really great you can live cheaper in Virginia or Maryland if you want or you can find a group house in DC it's a very transient place and so there are always opportunities for folks to find housing for a couple of months I invite you to call me separately at my office line here in Washington or write to me if you have some interest in the program we'd be happy to set aside some time to see if the issues you have match the program and I look forward to speaking with many of you in the future so once again it's very nice to meet you sorry I can't be there in person but I love the school and I'm still close to the faculty and the staff there I just really would like this program to really meet the needs of the school and the students so please don't hesitate to reach out it's much better than when he's moving as a dancer what I'll say in addition to what Professor Zlatnik just said about that program and this program we've been saying it about every program but if you think about a semester in practice it's particularly important to plan early really early so if you're interested in DC you ought to be talking to him and to me basically now and same thing with the New York Parbono Scholars program so as I said earlier what I didn't say is Eliza Vorenberg who is in the Feinstein Center the teacher, the director of this program it runs in the spring semester from March to June because in February of that semester you're taking the bar exam which it is administered in New York you have to take it in New York but it's a uniformed bar exam and then you do 12 weeks of full time an externship in a public interest setting at an approved placement we will work with you to try and find placements because there are so many because this is run in New York there are many many offices in New York that are now set up to have people in this time frame working full time but there is no requirement that you do it in New York in fact we've had students not do it in New York we had one student do it in the New Island Center for Justice there's no requirement that you be in New York the only connection really to New York is it's the UBE in New York that you wind up taking in February and you get yourself admitted in New York but you can then take that UBE result elsewhere begin planning early and you need to talk to me I think that's about it in terms of that program okay so yes David I just have one comment and Katie can correct me BizDorg is very important prerequisite for our her clinic and my externship another course that's very important is contract drafting and transactions because that's what you do in either program the Red Sox have told us don't send us anybody who hasn't taken that so you might want to think about that if you have an interest in the clinic or in the externship and it's also something that lawyers do a lot great class we offered every semester it really is quite foundational to anybody who thinks that at some point in their career and I agree with what David said that's probably many of you will work in any kind of business or transactional so okay so we have some time for questions and answers let me just say what you really ought to be doing in addition to the questions you certainly can ask now is reach out to the directors reach out to the students the Feinstein Center is really our hub of planning those of you who know that you're really focused on business and transactional work these are the folks you should be talking to about planning and Lori mentioned this but let me sort of highlight it we do two application periods each year one in the fall one in the spring the application period in the fall the one that's coming now is just for the spring that immediately follows but really really importantly particularly to the two L's and one L's who are already starting to think the application period in the spring is for the entirety of the following year right because we want you to plan we have a process that enables you to plan be processing that and let's take questions if people haven't and let me just also add so the deadline is October 8th we will let you know sometime around like around the 19th of October at the latest so that you will know in time to register for classes and figure out the schedule and all of that so any questions can we access this PowerPoint somehow can we post it I will send it to everyone great I should also say there are evaluations in the Feinstein Center of anyone who's done an externship anywhere that's given us permission to have it so for the public interest program and for the prosecution program and for several semesters in practice so that can also be a good way to sort of get a sense of what people are doing in their externships there was a comment there was a maximum of 20 credits that can be used towards RJD for either clinic or externship or field practice so my question is I don't know let's see will this also meet some of the requirements that the law school puts on us for example like skill credits we need so many courses for skill credits the answer to that is yes the field work credits and the clinic credits count toward that requirement and we should add we also have a cap you can only do two semesters of experiential ed you're guaranteed one as long as you apply by the spring of your two-year we encourage you to do two and I think something like 75% of our students do two of these experiences but you can't do anything any other questions okay so you know just to end by addressing that you want to plan early and you want to reach out to students and to those of us in very chronic further issues you want to talk about thanks, thanks for coming