 Hello, welcome to DEI Matters, Conversations with Margaret Credo-Thomas. This is a new avenue as a community to have thoughtful and meaningful conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-racism. And today our guest is Jillian Harvey, and she is the director of the town for DEI. Welcome Jill. Hi Margaret. How are you? Good. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's for us to just have a conversation, and you and I have had merits of conversations in regards to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so why don't we start with you just telling us a little bit about yourself, and we can start from there. Yeah, okay. So I guess I'll start with how I got to Arlington. I realized, well, in looking for DEI positions back in 2019, that at the root of kind of my base of passions was actually social justice, and racial justice, and advocacy work, because I really wanted to be an archaeologist. Oh really? I didn't know that about you. I did. I was on the archaeology track, and then my field school got canceled, so I was like, it's a sign not to do that. So from there, I was super involved during my undergrad years, and I studied anthropology, so I've always had a fascination with people and culture, and really just helping people kind of navigate life. And from there, I worked at the Children's Hospital for five years, and at a teen center. So those two experiences really made me see a lot of the inequities and harm some of our systems in this country are doing, so our education system, health care, and that's what drove me to go back to school to study public policy and public affairs. And with that, again, a focus in racial and social justice and advocacy work. So my experience at grad school is also what really drove home my passion for, I'd say, inclusion work and equity. Just some of the experiences I had pushed me to address it with my program and say, sign me up to do this work for you, because I don't want other students to feel this way. And from there, I kind of switched gears looking at policy analyst positions to more of the DEI positions that I noticed were popping up, because a lot of these, I'd say, DEI roles are definitely prominent in higher ed, but they're becoming more relevant in municipalities, towns and cities. So when I saw the opportunity in Arlington, I went for it. Well, I'm glad you did, because we've been able to work with each other for the last several years. You mentioned that you were going to be on the archeology track, right? So when I think about DEI, and we think about it, it's sort of like archeology, right? And so what do you think some of the challenges are when you think through that archeological lens? What are some of the challenges that you face in your position? In my position, I would say trying to problem solve, but not having all of the pieces, and I think equity work for everyone right now is kind of a puzzle, because we're starting to really dive into it, but we don't know what we don't know. So taking steps back to do a lot of fact finding and just talking to people about what their needs are, because I think that's something that we don't do. And that was a part of my education, too, studying public policy, that I genuinely had concerns about, that we have folks who are leading our governments, making policies, making choices about and for people without people. And for me, I was like, that's not how this should work. So for me, I think that's still the biggest challenge, because we're stuck in the ways of how we always have done things, but that hasn't worked for everyone. Even thinking of right now with COVID, people want to go back to normal. Normal wasn't great for a lot of people, so we need to start to figure out how to make things better for folks. And that's a challenge, because you're working against a system that's been in place for centuries. Right. Yeah, that's probably my biggest challenge is pushing people to want to be able to really take the step to make changes. There's a lot of talk about wanting change and being here for it, but then once it shows up at your doorstep, you're not quite ready to make that jump. Yeah. I faced some of that in the school system. What are some of the things that you think help with some of the strategies and techniques that you think that help to push someone, and I don't want to say push, right, but gently move someone forward in this work, right? Sometimes you have to gently do it, because if you do it too quickly, that's where the resistance and the fences come up. And so what are some of the support you think or techniques you use that you can see people who have moved from their thought process, like you're shifting their mindset? I would say kind of instilling the sense of the need for self-reflection. It's something I practice too. I will try new things. I think, again, in this field, stuff is kind of trial and error. We have some places that we can look to for guidance, but otherwise every community is different, so you have to also figure out what works for you. And so for me, it's always doing a program, taking a step back, seeing if it had an impact, seeing if it possibly harmed someone, reassessing and self-reflecting on what could have been different, what could be improved, what went well. But I think for others, too, that self-reflection piece is recognizing where you are. If you're ready to hop on this equity journey, if you're not ready, what steps do you need to take as an individual to get there? And that's just, I mean, for me, it's a matter of like providing basic readings and podcasts and videos for folks to just tune into to start to get familiar with the idea of we've lived in a society that's not created for everyone. So just because you necessarily haven't been impacted, that doesn't mean that people around you haven't. So really just kind of being aware of yourself and the role that you play is the first step because otherwise you can't make any adjustments if you don't recognize what you are doing as an individual. Yeah, you said something really important of self-reflection is really important. And one of the other things I feel like is really important is identity, right? And so as you talk about self-reflection is how do you help someone that doesn't really understand what their identity, what I mean by identity is sometimes race or ethnicity or I have this culture or I have this tradition they don't sometimes it's like helping them to understand that that's pieces of you that you bring into every environment that you're in. So how do you help someone when you say self-reflection then to say the self-reflection is based on your identity? So how do you help someone to kind of know what their identity is to help them to get to that self-reflection piece? Yeah, I would say it's more about being able to show up as you are but also asking questions. I'm a question asker, so I'm interested, again, I love people. I'm interested in people. So for me it's about asking questions and asking what you're comfortable with or for me too I think I recognize the mix of identities I hold. And again, being a person of color I think you naturally have to do that because it's there but for others who are kind of entering the space of self-reflection I think it's becoming more clear. It's funny, so I have this conversation with my parents. So my dad is black, my mom is white and it's been interesting to watch at least my mom's progress over the last few years now that I've been in this type of field for work to really get a full understanding of race, whether you don't see it or not, you do, it's there that you have to be able to identify who you are, what you are and know that it's going to have an impact. And just being, I'd say, more aware of people aren't the same in accepting different cultures and just being open to people doing things differently and that norms aren't norms for everyone. Right, right. What is most rewarding for you in doing this work? That's a great question. Honestly, I would say when I get sometimes just those random emails or a letter to my actual mailbox in my office just from a resident who's saying thanks and it can be thanks for doing such-and-such program or for backing up a statement that was made, like just those simple things knowing that-and it's people I've never met that I have no idea who I'm reaching but I know that that's-my goal is to have an impact on community members and when I do get those types of folks just reaching out just to say thanks, it makes me feel like the work is worth it. Yeah. As we do this work, right, I think it's important to share with people that it's important for us to get that on a daily basis because of other things that we might face. So, you know, when you get that thank you note or letter it's like, like you said, it's like, wow, this-I am making change, right, and that's something that you need to see on a daily basis. I work for the schools now. I know. And you work for the town and we decided to meet regularly to try to figure out like how we can merge or work together and collaborate from the school in a townside. So, let's just talk a little bit with the audience about our relationship and how we're leaning into this work. And so, I can say that for me stepping into this new role and not being new to Earlington, though, you've been very helpful and very supportive, right, and it's been a very different lens that I've had to look through a kind of wider lens that I had to look through. And so, let's talk about some of the things that you told me to really, for myself and for this work, right, to really kind of put before myself. Yeah. So, I think one of the things that, like I just said, support. So we can talk about why that's important, I think, in this role. Yeah. I know for me it's important because the work is, it can be emotional. I don't know if we talk about that piece. Is that true for you? I know that that's what I'm starting to see and feel. Absolutely. Yeah. It's definitely, and I'd say being in this type of role within the last almost two years with what's been going on across the nation, pandemic, the awakening of realizing racism's real. It's really been tough to be able to manage doing your job, but also your job is part of you, especially when you are trying to advocate for people. So it's definitely been tough to, I'd say, manage the emotional piece and still do the work because some days you just want to tap out because you are on overload because you saw something else on the news that happened and you have to take that to work with you when it doesn't necessarily impact other people the same way. So it's been very challenging, but back to that support. If you have a network of folks that are there that you can talk to, you are one of those people for me who I know will also understand where I'm coming from, it really helps and you need to have that. And I've helped to do that with folks who have this job in other towns and cities in Massachusetts myself and the DEI director for Beverly set up a coalition for folks with that role he meet by twice a month on Fridays, actually today we meet. You look forward to those meetings. I do, I love it. Friday is a 12, but it's really great just to know that you're not alone because this type of work, a lot of these positions are singular roles. It's a one person department. It's a one person, you do it all and you do feel alone, even though your job consists of working with groups of people, but it can be isolating. And so having those other folks who you know are dealing with the same exact things, similar issues, challenges and rewards is great to have. Yeah, I just became a part of the school once. Yeah, the DEI directors have a group also and they formed it last year and so that is growing and that like you, it was just really good to be in a space with people who do job elikes and that experience. They understood the experience is that I was just sharing or we were sharing with each other. It is also a place, I think we should say, not only for support and for resources and for different ideas or troubleshooting from, you know, problem-solving I found is really a good place for that group. What other supports do you think is really important as one comes into this job of, you know, this long name of diversity, equity and inclusion? I would say something that I also don't do well, it's the vice I give, but you know it's tough to take your own advice, is really just taking care of yourself, knowing when you've hit your boundaries, putting boundaries in place and being able to say, nope, I need today to just reset my mind and take care of your mental health because it is, it's a taxing role, especially if you are someone who is from a historically underrepresented group, like you just feel it a bit more, so making sure that you take care of yourself first because the work will always be there. It's a lifelong journey, so I think the expectations of oh, this role will come in and fix everything, that's not realistic, it's a commitment that you need, if it's a town, it's a city, school district, whatever, you're making this commitment for life because it's not a quick fix. No, you're like really, we're going into an avenue where like you had mentioned a lot of these roles are coming up and I think some people have the mindset, oh, we do have a DEI director now and so now we've solved a problem when actuality, we've just begun, right, we've just begun the work and how do we really like, I've been saying like how do we expand the role into a department and what is it, what does it really mean when we say diversity, equity and inclusion and I always add anti-racism, it's also, I think a question I've been asking myself as I've kind of come into this role, so it's all of that meshed together and you're right, it's really, someone said to me yesterday, it's really important Margaret that you do self-care and they said to me, I just don't want to say that to you, so let's talk about certain things that you're going to do, which was really important because the person said it's a buzzword now, self-care has become a buzzword and we're not really saying, well Jill, what is some of the things you do to, because I think I can say this, like you like rollerblading, because I know that, right, and I like boxing and so there are things that we do know that I can say, well, Jill, have you been rollerblading lately? So when you're like, I'm ready to scream, let me put on my helmet. Right. Yeah. What is, what are the, what's another thing that a person that comes into this role might, before, you know, before coming in might not understand, oh, I might meet with you. Yes. I would say just resistance to the work period. I think you think because the role is created that everyone's on board, but I think I said earlier once it's time to actually, you know, put change in motion, that's where you see folks not really being ready or not thinking there is a problem or that the problem isn't that bad. And so being able to navigate those spaces and figuring out how to not take it personally. I think because most of the folks in this role are passionate, I know for myself I am. So that's something I to constantly have to remind myself about that don't take it personally. It's not about you. It's about this massive shift that needs to take place and folks aren't ready. But I think another thing is being able to know that know you're, know you're worth and value that you are hired for a reason you have expertise, you have an idea of where you want to take things so don't let little pockets of resistance stop you. I think and I don't know if you have run into this. I also think that when a person comes into this role, other people have perceptions of what you should be doing or what the responsibilities of this person is. Can you share with me like when you came into this role? Did you feel as though there was some like some people thought well no Jill, I think you should be doing this and how did those conversations go? Yeah. I feel like I'm meeting with those kind of conversation. So for me, I think it was a little different because of when I started. So I started with the town basically January 2020. My years are now 2020. Yeah. So 2020, I have no concept of time. But my kind of responsibilities were laid out like working with the commissions that I oversee and support doing ADA coordinating and then starting to do some of the racial equity work internally. And then with the pandemic, it just kind of I don't want to say derailed but made other areas very high priority. So I wasn't expecting to be as responsive to community member needs as I became. So like you know whipping up the community conversation series that I don't know what I was thinking trying to do like one every couple weeks. So I scaled it back this year to make to bounce it out. But that I'd say that kind of need and want from community members was great. It's clear that there's a desire for education and doing more. But at the same time, it's completely taken over a lot of the other responsibilities that I have. So I think now almost almost two years later, I'm at the point where I'm kind of slowing down building and structure that I never got to. Future planning I keep trying to but because of all of the constant everyday things that pop up whether it's an incident that I'm helping with or an accommodation that a resident needs or a document review to see if the language is right. Like all of these things come up every single day and then you don't have the time to do the larger scale planning and thinking. And so I'm at the point now where I'm like okay we're gonna pause. Sorry I will get to you but there needs to be some structures put in place and it'll it'll be more efficient in the long run. I think you just said a really important word. We're going to pause. I think it's okay for us to pause to assess to then after assessment to determine what implementation and what are we going to implement and then how do we reassess what we've implemented and I think I'm I'm starting to say that word a lot more like no we can pause. Slow down. Pump the brakes. Right. We can go slow to go fast. It's something I'm starting to say a little bit more especially when we're entering into this work and we have to remember that some some marginalized people have been hurt right by experiences and so as we delve into this work and we are really wanting to do the diversity and the equity and the inclusion and the anti-racism we want to make sure that we're doing it in a thoughtful meaningful way. Like you said we're putting in structures that we have to dismantle structures first right before we can put structures in. Yeah. So that as we're doing this work that we're doing I feel like a great word I want to say is healing. We're doing we're starting to do the healing spaces and healing structures is what comes to my mind when I've been doing this work as I've merged into this work so just like you said there's a lot that that we have to just look at we have to really be courageous to start having these conversations so that's another place where it starts. Yeah. What do you think some of the what are you think some of the future like goals or aspirations to hope things you look down the line for in this work for the town and as we work together maybe we can talk about what we hope for together I know we're still kind of really talking about that and and I think we're going slow so that we can really understand how we collaborate together so what are some of the hopes and aspirations? Yeah. I mean I think my and my like overall goal would be that I don't need to be called for questions or to solve problems because everyone in every town department will have the tools and the knowledge to be able to address the equity issues that are presented so that so I guess like working towards that would be not just training but culture shift and the culture shift part of that is accountability so figuring out how how we as a town will actually hold ourselves accountable if we're committing to this work and that's something I don't I don't know how so that's a goal is to figure that out and start to put things in place but yeah I think for me it would be you know having a division that can be built up and be a resource and support for the town but that it's not the problem-solving division that it's providing tools and resources to all other departments and folks to be able to do the work themselves so that we're baking inequity lens into everything that we're doing but like you said that also means dismantling systems and structures that we already have in place because they're built not with the best of not the best of intentions but they weren't built for everyone right so you know taking steps back looking at the policies and procedures what we have going on now and taking the time to kind of redo things the right way Jill thank you thank you so much for joining me today um for um DEI matters conversations with Margaret Cuedo Thomas I always love talking to you I think we can even talk more about how we can you know maybe have more of these conversations and maybe bring a couple more people in yeah to our space as we we delve into this work so thank you for joining us I am Margaret Cuedo Thomas and we will see you soon