 who wish to access the meeting may do so in the following manner, visit town's home page at www.amherstma.gov, navigate to the town calendar toward the bottom of that page, click on the meeting schedule for August 24 or the zoom link and telephone connections can be found. No in person attendance of members of the Commission or of the public will be permitted. But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via techno technological means described above in the event that we are unable to do so. Despite best efforts, we will post on the town website and audio or video recording transcript or other comprehensive recording of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting. So my name is Jane Walden as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission on calling this public meeting and public hearing to order at 634pm. The meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. So we'll take attendance of Commission members. And as you hear your name called just yourself answer and then place yourselves back on mute. Patricia off. Present. Robin Fordham. Present. Janet Marquardt. Present. Eddie Startup. Present. Jane Wald. I too. Present. I'm pleased to say that town manager Paul Bachman has appointed two new members to the Commission. Becky Sheridan and Catherine Davis. They will most likely be taking their place as official members by the time of the next meeting. Can you tell us anything about them or is that not what we wait to hear from them? I would. Curious for them to introduce themselves at the next. Okay. To members of the public opportunity for public comment will be provided during the public hearing and during the general public comment period. And at any other times deemed appropriate throughout the meeting. Please be aware that the commission will take note of comments but won't necessarily respond to them during public comment periods. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you have joined the zoom meeting using the telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on the phone. When called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the meeting chair. So moving. Before we move on, is there someone who would be willing to be ascribed for the meeting to take to jot down some minutes. I can volunteer for that. Thank you, Robin. Thanks, Robin. Yeah, that's been working well. I've successfully adapted the adapted your notes into minutes. It's a big help. Okay, good. Thank you. All right, so moving on to the public hearing in accordance with provisions of mass general laws chapter 40 a and article 13 demolition delay of the embers zoning bylaw. This public hearing has been duly advertised and notice there out has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The embers historical commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application request. This is for 1270 West Street, first of 25 d dash 29 a request from Cynthia Holmes for complete demolition of a detached wood frame barn from approximately the early 20th century. So, for this hearing. I think this homes are representative is present. We'll be glad to hear any additional information you'd like to convey to the commission. We'll ask Ben breaker as town planning staff planning department staff for any other information that he might have. We will then solicit public comment closed public hearing and then deliberate as a commission on the request. So Miss Holmes. Are you here with us. You are on mute yourself. Okay, can you hear me now. Yes. Thank you. So we can ask. From it. You submitted with that request. Is there anything you'd like to highlight or any additional information you'd like to bring to our attention. No, just a little bit of background. I've been at the house since 83 and over the course of that time, the barn has deteriorated significantly. So much so that about between five and 10 years ago, I had a carpenter reinforce it from the inside. And I was thinking, and I want to get the permit for to demolish it either. I'm getting the house ready to sell. So I don't know whether it's going to be demolished before or after I sell it, but I figured I wanted to get the permit process underway. Okay, thank you. Anything you'd like to. No, I've, I've looked into the, to the property deed research and, you know, anything I, I looked into, you know, various different resources to look for any information. And I was not able to find much on the property. In terms of historical significance. I just want to note that it appeared at the barn appears on a aerial map from like the 1930s, I believe. So it's roughly that not all that least. Okay, thank you. Oh, let's go step in our, in our procedure here and that's for historical commissioners to pass the applicant or ban any or any certifications or any other information you'd like to hear. Oh, excuse me, Jane, was that directed at me. No, that was directed at members of the historical commission. Okay, they had other questions. Oh, heady. Am I looking at the diagonal sort of struts that have been put in by your carpenter. Is that, is that to come reimagine. Yes, the diagonals are the struts on a lower level. Gotcha. Gotcha. What a beautiful roof that barn has beautiful shape. Yeah. I'm sorry that it has some hard to me hard to me. I'm getting a lot of anybody else's. I don't know what to do about it. I'm having trouble hearing what everybody says with all the feedback. I think it, it started when homes, I'm wondering if it's something to do with her future. Okay. And she mutes it's better so something's going on with that speaker. So for Cynthia, I did just you, but because it may have been causing some interference, but when I can unmute you when, when it's when, when, if you want to speak. Does that seem to help. Yes. Okay. Okay. And so. You were speaking. That was, that was really all I wanted to say. I'm sorry, what was that comment? I think I missed it. Well, one was just to clarify that the diagonal struts were put in by her carpenter. So that I know what I'm looking at. And then the other comment was just more subjective that it's a very beautifully proportioned and, and nice to look at roof. My sense is that it can't be seen from the street. Is that correct? I was able to see it from the street on a Google Maps today. Oh, okay. I was just looking at them. It doesn't show in the view that I pulled up and I don't remember ever seeing it when I drive by there. The Google view goes, if you go straight down the driveway, it's a sort of a right angle view. Oh, I see. Okay. I see. Yeah. Yeah. If you turn. Okay. You have your. I'm just upon Heddy's comment about the beautiful roof. Roof line. I'm just wondering if there's been any inquiries to the wood and whether any of it could be repurposed. Miss Holmes, I think that's a question for you. I'll try to sit away from the speaker. Um, yes, I've asked several people about people that reclaimed barns and everybody says that the word is not the type that is used for reclamation. It's too brittle. It's really like slaps. So I had a similar idea, but I've had several people say, no, that's not what they're looking for when they reclaim barns. Thank you. I love it too. I think it's beautiful. When you say it's too brittle, does that mean that the boards are too thin? Yeah, they're too thin. And also, um, I had a pre-listing inspection done of the house. It didn't include the barn, but the inspector did look at it and said, if it's still standing when you list the house, don't let anybody in it. Implying that it was not safe. The upper level. Any other questions or comments? We'll take a public comment if there is anyone. Anyone viewing that would like to make a comment. We have two hands raised. Is it okay if I recognize these folks? So first allow Debbie Jacques to talk. If you just could, uh, yeah. Did I unmute? Yeah, we can hear you. Okay. Well, actually, um, my husband and I, Ron are sitting here. We weren't sure we were going to be able to do this technology, but it looks like we have. We are the next door neighbors at 1260 West street. And my husband, I think you had your first comments you wanted to say about the bar. Well, I think there's a line there between what it's going to cost to rehab it and what it's going to cost to demo it. And I can see Cynthia's point our neighbors point because we're the butters, whether it's a safety issue to market the barn or not. Whether we like the historical concept we do, it's a very cool barn. I like the roof designs. I do think it'll probably cost more to rehab it than it probably will to demolition it. So, so it can go anyway, I'm in agreements with our, our neighbor that if she wanted to demo what that would be fine or if they wanted to rehab it that would also be fine. It is, it is really a pretty wonderful looking old building and I would hope that it would still be able to be abused sometime but however the chips fall is fine with us. I just wanted to sort of add to that, you know, my husband being a dairy farmer in this town of Amherst for years and years and years we certainly appreciate the historical value, and the looks of this barn. The thing that concerns me is the safety issue I have two young grandsons who come to visit and you know as they get older I hope they wouldn't venture over there because as you as you look through the pictures of the barn. There's, there's wards missing and it's, you know, it's, it's really kind of dilapidating. I would hate for my, my grandkids to get in there and you know falling to trouble. And I think that's probably what the inspector was referring to, to Cynthia when, you know, she's trying to sell her house and, and I certainly understand her wanting to sell her home, and having this be, you know, real sore thumb for her. And also understanding historically, you know what barns are. So, you know, I'm not sure what your solution here is except to probably, you know demolish it if it's just economically not going to be feasible for you to rehab it. I think some of those boards be used in some way for somebody, even if it was like a framing on a, on a pit on an art painting or something but um, but I understand Cynthia's dilemma, and, and I think in reselling the house, it would be a real safety issue for anybody who is going to be buying it. So I guess that's all we had to say so thank you. Thank you. So there is another hand mid gauge. Hi, I have my comments on a different topic so I guess I should wait for the general comments. Yes, please. What is that. That comes toward the end of the meeting. What is it. It comes toward the end of the meeting it's far down on the agenda. Okay, so I'll come back. All right. Very brief. I'll come back. Thank you. Okay. And can I ask you what did you say was the last, the, the first mention of it date wise on maps. I miss, I can't remember what you said now. I believe it was 1935. I don't think this is a really old building. It looks to me like it was built as a garage, or maybe a stable, but it's small, and it has that window on the side and the interior just isn't it just doesn't look like a barn I think it's a garage that was made to look like a barn, maybe even old wood taken from another bar. You know, I still see Debbie jock's hand. And you may have, you may have said all that you want to thank you. Thank you. So seeing no more hands. We're going to close public comment and want to close the public hearing and then deliberate. So is there a motion to close the public hearing. So moved. Second. All in favor of closing the public hearing, I guess we better do this by roll call. Patricia off. Yes. Robin Fordham. Yes. Janet Markport. Yes. Teddy startup. Yes. Jane wall. Yes. All right. So I think. We've made a few observations about, about the structure. And Jans made a, I think a pretty cogent observation about. What it's origin might be. Which is related to its age. And I think, And I think, And I think, And I think, Are there other thoughts. That you'd like to. Share. Will we vote? Dan, do we have a standard list of. People. Barn. Reclaimed wood. Individuals with an interest in reclaimed wood that seems to be something that comes up a lot. That would be nice. We could refer to people who are coming. For demolition request. I'm not aware of such a list now. Jane, do you recall, I can't remember what. Building we were trying to get a. Input from somebody from, I thought it was the one out. Towards Sunderland, but. It was, it was in Montague and Jen and I worked together on that. And Nate and brought out several people. One of whom seemed quite promising. And then. I don't know. I don't know. Encouragement and prompting didn't ever bring us a report. We just, I mean, but those are barred experts, not reclamation experts. Build and repair. We had Jesse Brown from white timber and things like that, but we didn't have a reclamation. They got the owner got them. But if I remember correctly, it was $1,000 to turn that barn into something useful and it was 1,500 to knock it down and take the wood away. So there's always a huge difference in, in costs. Cost in terms of even reclaiming the materials that are taken down. Well, usually what they do is that if you give them the materials, it's lower costs to take it down. Or sometimes they'll do it for free. If you give them everything there. So, but still is a cost to taking it down. That's probably taking it down same. That's probably a larger than demolition. If it. Sometimes. Sometimes I want to label things. Which is another step. You know, label the parts of the barn, which is another step. Right. If they're selling really specific timber, they'll separate it out and take it apart carefully. And take the nails out and stuff now. So it could take more, but I still don't think it would ever come to as much as restoring something. And this, I mean, there's almost nothing left. It was just a frame with some boards over it. And now it's. A tottering frame with a few boards left. I mean, I don't, I honestly, it's, it's really sweet looking. It has a really romantic quality, but I don't think it's worth much. I don't, I don't think it's a terribly valuable building. Historically. Are we ready to vote? So motion. I make a motion that we vote from the demolition request. Well, actually we had to move what we want to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Go for it. I move that we grant the demolition request for 10. What was it? 77 West street. 1270. West street. Is there a second? Second. I think that was Robin. Second to first. Second. And any other discussion. Then let's vote. My roll call. So. Patricia. I'm in favor of granting a demolition. Permit. Robin forum. Hi. Yes. Heady startup. Yes. Jane wall. Yes. Okay. So it was home spirit. We voted to allow the. To approve the demolition permit. So you can proceed with that. With that. Scheduled how, however it needs to be scheduled. And then are there any specific. Follow-up steps that. You'd like to make this home. No, it's pretty straightforward at this point. We've actually moved to a new permitting software. I think as Ms. Holmes knows, so it's all on open gov.com. It's called is the new system. So I will. Transmit the result of this meeting to, through the open gov portal and let them know that the historical commission has granted their approval for the demolition. And then, you know, I think the building inspecting building inspections department will need to just look it over as well. To make sure everything's okay with the utility disconnections and all of that. But then you, your permit shell, it should be issued soon thereafter. So. But yeah, definitely you have my email and everything. So let me know if you have any further questions. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. And best wishes. All right. So now we can move into the public meeting first with a presentation of Amherst college way, the Amherst college wayfinding signage project. So there. Is there a. Yeah, thanks, Jane. I was going to actually. Oops. I was going to start to meet, start this conversation off with just a little overview of. The wayfinding system that the town is putting forth, just because it held is helpful context for what Amherst college is also proposing. And Chris Brestrup is, should be joining as well. Shortly. So I'll keep an eye out for her. All right. One, one, one thing I'd like to say before we go into this, and it's a disclosure that is. It's expected in circumstances like this. And the disclosure for me is that I am technically a. Amherst college employee. And I don't know that we are going to be asked to. Make any decisions or take any votes or express an opinion as a commission. I don't think that my status as a college employee is going to affect my. It's not going to affect my judgment in this case as well. So sorry. Back to you. Yeah. No, thanks. Thanks, Jane. Yeah. So just briefly. So the, the town and the, you know, specifically the planning department and public works department, we've been developing this wayfinding system. And we've been working on it for, you know, I think it's one of those projects that's been going on for many years, but in the, it's really kind of picked up steam in the last year or so. And we are proposing the, the point of this, the goal of this wayfinding sign is to have improved, you know, directional. Signs throughout town to direct people to the specifically downtown, but also destinations. And just to provide kind of a sense of branding and placemaking for the town. This sign system. We've received approval from town council already for, for the changes in the public way. But because these signs are, some of them are placed around the common, the town common, which is obviously the, one of the more historical, historically significant landscapes and Amherst. So kind of on a similar timeline, Amherst college has been developing a wayfinding system, mostly for their own, for internal to their campus, but there are some signs around the periphery of the campus. And I'll invite their team in here to give a, a good overview of their sign system. So essentially they're going through Amherst college is going through the permitting process right now. So they'll be talking to the design review board tomorrow. And the town council subcommittee, which is called TSO on, on a Thursday, ultimately to get approval from town council, the full town council for the placement of these signs. And essentially the, the role of the historical commission is an advisory role. So there's no kind of like permit that needs to be granted. Necessary in this case or an approval per se, but similar to how the historical commission provided helpful input for the 11 East pleasant building and the impacts to West cemetery. That was kind of an advisory role because there was a, a potential impact to a historical landscape in Amherst. So this is something similar where the historical commission is giving advice or recommendations to the town council, specifically on how the placement of these signs. Impacts, you know, the historic integrity of the town common. And, you know, specifically views into and out of the common and, and, and, and the like. And I should note too that, you know, it might not be common knowledge, but the town common, the town, you know, right of way historically, it extends all the way from, you know, main street kind of where, you know, where town hall is all the way south to the, to the essentially to the rail trailer to Amherst farmers supply. There's a brief inter interruption where the Amherst college has the hill. That's, that's there. Not the town common, but essentially the town, the historic town common does extend that far. And there's, you know, a whole history of kind of, of how various agreements between kind of, you know, the town owns it, but Amherst college manages parts of it. So it's especially south, south of root nine is where kind of Amherst college maintain maintains the common and it's kind of part of their campus, but it's technically town owned. So it's, so, but we're kind of treating it as the, as the historical landscape of the, of the, that that's the purview tonight. So I'm going to invite the Amherst college team in here. And then I'm going to just give a brief overview of the town's wayfinding system. They can then talk about the Amherst college wayfinding system. And, you know, I should note that there's areas where our, our, our systems overlap and, you know, we're mindful of reducing sign clutter and wanting to, you know, work together to kind of find a solution to make our, our signage systems work together. So we're actively kind of having those conversations. And I think one of the goals tonight is to get some guidance on kind of how we can work together to reduce. Or, you know, just kind of make the sign systems work together better. So let me bring the Amherst college team in here. So I'm going to bring them in as panelists. One at a time. Sorry. It's a little clunky. And it looks like Chris has joined us as well. So, so thanks everyone. And just because Chris, you just joined, I just kind of gave an overview of kind of the, the role of the historical commission in this process and a brief kind of background for, for our sign system and how we got to where we are now and just letting them know the timeline for Amherst college and that they're kind of beginning their permitting process now. And I was going to just briefly run through the town's way finding system, some of the images I put together. And then I guess we could do, we can maybe do introductions as well. It might be good since we just invited some new folks into the, into the room. So Tom, do you think is that a good next step? Just. Okay. So let me just share my screen here. So we've been working closely with the designer for our sign system in Northampton, Seth Gregory, local, local designer. And he put together a kind of a branding and, you know, sense of branding for the town that we've been working at considering our kind of family of signs. So this is that kind of the, the welcome sign that we've been working on. And the, there's four located around town. Entrances to kind of the entrances to Amherst, directing people to the downtown. One of them we are proposing for this corner of the town common kind of as you come up. So we're moving traveling West up route nine. To place a sign here on the town common. Part of the goal of our sign system is to, you know, it's an economic driver, essentially, in addition to actually directing people and developing a place making, we want to catch people at key intersections where we can then direct them towards the center of town. You know, cause a lot of people might just be driving on route nine and not know that the downtown Amherst is in this direction. So wanting people to, you know, recognize that downtown Amherst and all of its lovely offerings is right here. So this was the, that was the goal with this sign location. We are, so this sign has gone through town council and has been approved and we're, you know, appreciate any feedback you can offer, but I think that is part of the plan is to put a sign here. The next location is kind of a tentative location. We've been searching for a location for the eastbound. Traffic on route nine. With little success and we've kind of been slowly moving up the hill up the hill on route nine to find the location. And are considering this kind of a tentative location. You'll see when it, when Amherst college presents, they are proposing a sign opposite this location, kind of for this corner, which is like an important gateway for their campus. So we're mindful of, you know, having competing signs here might not be the best, but this was kind of the location. We've been thinking as a tentative location for our welcome sign for eastbound traffic on route nine, but this has not been approved by the town council yet. And as for the directional signs, so those are the two welcome signs. And then I believe we have 12 of these directional post signs. This is kind of the spec sheet that shows what these look like. The colors were for historic. And cultural destinations on the sign. We're kind of choosing this brown color, which is, you know, kind of standard for high highway signs, especially you see this brown color for historic and cultural destinations. Similarly, like the blue for parking is, is a standard color. And so I guess, yeah, this is technically on the town comm in the corner of main street and South pleasant street here, putting a, proposing to place a sign up on this existing light pole. We were mindful of trying to, you know, put as few new poles in the ground as possible. So where, where we could, we were wanting to mount on existing light poles such as this rather than putting anything new in the ground. This is the same sign from the opposite direction. So as you're traveling south. And then we're switching locations here. This is back to the town common on route nine. As you're traveling westward, you know, you will have just passed a welcome sign and then to provide more guidance and direction proposing to have a directional sign here to direct, to direct people to downtown parking, letting them know there's parking available visitor center and Jones library or to the right and then directions and South to South Amherst. Again, I should note that when Amherst college presents, they're proposing a sign in a similar location. So clearly we need to work on the, on coordinating those systems. Likewise, this is also on the, on the town common. Within the portion south of route nine, which is maintained by Amherst college, but owned by the town, but still the town common, and so as you're moving north, you're also proposing to place a sign here. You know, there's a kind of, as you move north on one 16 here, you're kind of, as you approach this intersection, you're hit with a sequence of signs, the state signs, the, you know, crosswalk signs, the lane differentiator. And so proposing to place a sign kind of along this line here. So moving in the opposite direction along the town common. And that is it. Yeah, that's, that's the last slide. Yeah. So those are the signs that we are proposing on the town common. We have, again, we have, I believe 10 or 11 total directional signs and four welcome signs. But I'm only just showing you the ones that are on the town common. So, you know, I'm just to get some feedback and I think, you know, it's important to note that, you know, this is like, like the Amherst college way finding sign ours is, you know, part of a larger system overall. So the signs kind of work in sequence to direct people towards destinations downtown to welcome them to Amherst. And to, you know, honestly the main goal is to get people to find parking, to address. So I'm going to stop sharing my screen now. And I think I have all the Amherst college team in here. So they have. Yeah, they're all here. So I'm going to, I guess I should see. Yeah. Can I first ask. Thank you, Ben. That's a very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for having us tonight. And we're pleased to present the town of Amherst way finding signs. And have Amherst college present their way finding signs. We are working on some details regarding coordination. Of our sign systems. And so. We're going to be working on that. Mostly we have the systems worked out, but there are a few places where we need some further coordination and we're going to be working on that. And we're hoping that the historical commission will. Make recommendations to the town services and outreach committee. They are meeting on Thursday. And the goal of their meeting is to make recommendations to town services and outreach. And the town services and outreach committee has received a referral from town council to examine the Amherst college way finding sign system, particularly the signs that are in the town right of way and on the town common. And as a result. TSO town services and outreach has reached out to the historical commission. To the design and review board. And the planning board will be reviewing the Amherst college signs that are. Proposed to be on the. Private property of Amherst college. Not in the town right of way. Not on the town common and not in the educational district. So those are signs that need site planning review by the planning board. So Amherst college has been, I would say, very patient with us in our explanation of our. Somewhat Byzantine review system, but they're willingly going along with all of these different groups that they have to meet with. And hopefully we'll come out with a good result in the end. So thank you very much. Thank you, Chris. So introduction. Tom, would you introduce your team to us? Sure. Happily. So hi, everybody. Nice to see you all again. I'm Tom Davies and I'm the director of the Amherst college. I'm Tom Davies and I'm the director of design and construction. And from my office, set set that will shoots has been leading the charge on this process. As one of our, our in-house project managers. And we have from role, Bressie. Andrew Bressie. And Sam piece. And they are the, the two lead design folks for the system. And working with us for probably longer than I want to say, I was going to say a year, but it's probably more like 18 months or something. Longer than I want to hear. COVID, COVID time warp. So that's us. Nice to meet everybody. Yes. Nice to meet everybody. Thanks for being here. Thank you. So let our signage designers walk through the presentation. If that's okay. Yes, thank you. I think they have permission to share their screen. Yep. Yep. You know, I should probably give a quick. Kind of why. Before we go into the details. And, you know, Amherst college essentially has no signage. People, people will often say that, you know, they've worked there for a couple of years and they still don't know where certain things are because, you know, if you, I'm sure you've all been on other campuses, you know, Smith or UMass or where, you know, local or not. It's pretty typical to have a fully integrated. Signage. System for a campus so that folks know where to go when they're coming for the first time and they know how to get around when they're there. The college has not in the last 18 months, but in the, well, I'll say other times, you know, we literally have tens of thousands of visitors a year to the campus, be it for cultural events, or, you know, athletic events or touring or visiting their, you know, students or whatever it might be. So it is a. It's a bit of a. Glaring need, quite honestly. And the, but the interesting thing is that the reason for this came up is because the college had a kind of a realization that, you know, we, we put so much emphasis on accessibility and inclusion and welcoming and, you know, in our programs and how we attract students from all kinds of different, you know, places and cultures and economic means around the world. And yet when you get there, it's as if like, if you don't know where you're going, you're not supposed to be here. You know, it's, it's not friendly. So that's the primary motivation by behind this whole effort is to correct that and, and project an image or a feeling that is more consistent with the, the, the zeitgeist of the core values of the institution. So I just thought it would be relevant to kind of give that, you know, big picture overview. And now I'll hand it off and we'll, we'll jump into, you know, the, the, the details. Thanks, Tom. Chris, I see your hand is up. I just wanted to say one thing. I'm sorry I came in late and I'm sure Ben has told you this before, but. What we're asking the historical commission to do tonight is to look at the signs that are being proposed on the town common. And we feel that the historical commission has a unique position in its role as kind of a keeper of the town common. Although you are not a permit granting board in this role. We're requesting that you provide a, recommendations to the town services and outreach committee in their review of these signs and then they will pass their recommendation on to the town council. So thank you very much. You probably heard that from Ben previously, but I just wanted to reiterate that. Shall we jump in? Yep. Yeah, it sounds great. Thanks. Great. All right. Thank you everyone for meeting with us. I'm excited to share with you, you know, the work that we've been doing with Amherst college. As Ben mentioned, we're kind of currently working with a coordination effort between the, the cities or the towns way of finding and the Amherst college way of finding, especially in the, in the kind of more public realm along the peripheries. So. That's going to be something that's going to be coming in the future. But what we really wanted to share as Chris mentioned is what we're proposing in the, in the kind of the town green and the town, you know, that town green area. So just to give the group a real kind of a brief overview of the entire program for Amherst college. We do have a series of signs similar to what Ben was mentioning that, you know, you were seeing a snippet of the signage for the, for the town. We have primaries and primary and secondary gateways, trailblazers, vehicular directionals, large, which we've been working on for a long time. Vehicular directionals, large, which are the ones that are really kind of oriented more to the surrounding, as well as vehicular directional smalls. Which are more for interior campus roads. Building identification, you know, as Tom mentioned, really to kind of put out this kind of plaque and indication of the name of the building. So if you're going to Valentine's Hall, you'll be able to see it, as well as clearly identifying parking and what regulations happen at those parking lots. In addition, we're looking at some cultural, cultural destination kind of flag marking, such as for holding an experimental theater. For a banner, a banner type system, kiosks with maps, a tri-sided, which also allows us an opportunity for advertising of cultural events or events that are happening on campus, or possibly even partnership with the town. A double-sided kiosk again, using this, using the, the campus map. And then a lower tier, top and then pedestrian directionals. The pedestrian directionals are really meant to happen throughout the campus themselves. We based our graphic standards just to give a brief overview on this, or based off of the Amherst College visual identity toolkit. So this is where our colors are coming from. This is a way for Amherst to, you know, to unify their messaging and unify their brand by use of color, use of typography, and use of mark. And we're looking at various ways of installing the signs as we need it. So there's a few different signs that we wanted to kind of go through with this group with. First of which, you know, we're going to be looking at, a trailblazer up here on main street and you'll see a rendering of this later on. This trailblazer actually is tentative as well. This is one of those spots that we're working with the town, with the potential of being able to include some of this type of information with town, the town, town sign for over here at suit order park. We also have a, we also have a, we also have a town sign for over here at suit order park. We also have our downtown great gateway as Ben mentioned, Cady corner to the welcome sign, the tentative welcome sign for a, we have the town sign nine, which is the way finding sign. Again, kind of next to our vehicular large vehicular directional, that tri-sided kiosk that you saw the initial view of building at other vehicular directional. And then some various building IDs and tabletop mask maps that happen within that, within the town green, as well as our secondary gateway here that happens down here at quadrangle. Most of these you're going to see renderings of in just a few minutes located on the, the additional south southern part of the green. We do have a secondary gateway, which is the, what's for calling the athletics gateway, because this is the primary athletics area. It's also the area where currently Wilson admission center is right here. So we really wanted to be able to put out a way to welcome potential students, future students, and visitors for athletic events, or theater events at Kirby, and the two major theaters here, to be able to kind of welcome them to the campus. And again, the parking identification as we go forward. So as you saw in our, kind of our initial kit of parts, the ones that we're really looking at the historical commission to look at are the, this particular secondary gateway at quadrangle drive. What we're doing here is we're taking a square post, we're pivoting it at 90 degrees, or 45 degrees to give it a diamond shape. We're then bracketing that and then having our panel kind of hang off with a little bit of open space between the post and the panel itself. We're doing that very similarly for all of our vehicular directionals. And these are the messaging that we're currently working with that with the town on for the B ones, which are made our large vehicular directionals. Similarly as a system for the B twos, which are smaller vehicular directionals. Again, this particular one to the left is for leading folks to museums and visitor parking and then accessible parking for Johnson Chapel and the museums up off of quadrangle drive. What if the key strategies for the, for the sign program is to avoid having folks driving up quadrangle drive and through the first year quad, really trying to keep that as pedestrian based as possible. Just with the amount of students that are walking around there and the kind of the cluster of, you know, both housing and academic facilities there. It just doesn't really make sense to have that being a major cut through for through the university. So, down here at the southern, southern green, we have one particular, we have one vehicular directional sign that leads you to admissions to alumni gym. And then also down the hill to the orange entrance. The one building idea that we had mentioned. That's over here is for 79 South pleasant. And then we also have one down here at. As I down here at Converse Hall. So indicating the entry to Converse Hall as people would, as people would approach. We have two parking lots. Parking lot ideas that live within the, the live within the town green one at Converse lot here. And then one at or wrink lot down here. And then we have our tri-sided kiosk. We have two that happen. One again over near 79 South pleasant in a, in the green space. And then we have a second one of those in front of alumni house, which is over, I believe it's just outside of, just outside of the green here. Again, the tabletop kiosks. We have one of these that's located again, right near Converse Hall. So as folks are parking at Converse Hall, they're getting out of their cars. They're able to identify where they need to go, where they, you know, they're spacing and where they're going on campus. As well as one of the things that Ann Hurst is doing. In addition is they are proposing doing land acknowledgement. And so I'm going to make this in, in, in the way that we are going to look at, in the building. As we, we have some. Statements at each one of these map kiosks. So this is a statement. Understanding. Amherst College, Amherst College live on native lands. And these are the native. And this is the native. Indigenous, And I'm happy to share rendered views. So as Ben had mentioned, this is our corner gateway at the corner of the green. This entire structure sits at four feet to the top. So it's four feet to here. What it is, it's a curbing aubergine panel set on a granite pylon on one side and a granite seat wall on the other. We wanted to keep this as low and as open as possible to, again, understand the importance of the views into the common, the views into the green, maintaining the tree that's currently existing and just being able to have a marker for Amherst College at this major gateway. There is also currently, we're working with a landscape architect to kind of also help with siting and also grade treatments at this location and also at our other primary gateway location. Our second primary gateway, this is the one that is over, again, over by the athletic complex and admissions. So it's the same thing. It's a 12 foot, no, I'm sorry, it's an 18 foot bar, but this is, again, a lot, this is a lot lower. This is only about two and a half feet tall to three feet tall, but this extends that seat wall to give a place of respite as you're going back and forth from the athletics complex down across the street to here. It's also giving the college an opportunity for that photo moment for their students, for their potential future students and current students saying, hey, I've chosen to go to Amherst. Our secondary gateway that's happening at Quadrangle Drive is a lot smaller. It's what we call a tavern style sign. Again, this is just a single post. It's about 14 feet tall with dimensional lettering on an aubergine panel. Again, also identifying the established date for the university or for the college and then the name of the road. So in this particular case, it's Quadrangle Drive. We have something similar to this down at East. That would just say East Drive, but that's out of the town common. This is what the proposed trailblazer would be on Main Street. Again, we're working with the town to try and incorporate some of these messages into the town way of finding. And as Ben mentioned, this is one of those spots that we have signs. We both have signs almost in the same location. So we're trying to, again, trying to reduce sign clutter and figure out the correct progression of town sign, Amherst sign. You know, does this town sign come always come first? Does Amherst sign come second? What is the messaging on the Amherst sign? What is the messaging on the town sign? This location right here is where the town welcome sign is. And again, at the other side of this is where that tentative town welcome sign is and the Amherst gateway is over here. This is kind of a superimposed view of where the town, the town way of finding is currently placed. Again, coming down Route 9, coming to the downtown corner, our gateway would be here. We're really kind of directing, in this particular case, to museums and visitor parking. We're also talking about directing towards the Emily Dickinson Museum. And one of the things that we had initially started talking about was directing towards downtown as well. Really to connect the college to the downtown, you know, to allow the students and allow the visitors to understand that you're within walking distance of, you know, places to eat, places to visit, places to shop. So this is coming north up 116, right? Yeah, north up 116, I apologize. Yeah. And again, looking at kind of where our two signs sign families interact. This is coming south on 116. Again, our intersection with our gateways, the gateway is here. Again, this is directing folks to take a left to go down to the museums and visitor parking for Amherst, straight ahead for admission and athletic center, and then going up Quadrangle Drive so that we can prevent vehicular traffic or deter vehicular traffic going up and through the first year quad. We have museums and visitor parking going down this way and then only really encouraging accessible parking for Johnson Chapel and the museums up along the first year quad. What our building signage looks like in situ. So this would be a sign for Converse Hall. One of the things that you will notice is that some of these have various coloring on the return and on the rule. So for the vast majority of signage that's really off campus and is kind of more public facing in the way of not necessarily, public's not the right word, kind of more on the outskirts. We're using the Amherst purple and this dark aubergine color. But where we're kind of coming in more into the interior of campus and campus buildings, we're using their secondary pellet. So this particular orange color is called autumn leaf. So this is part of that Amherst digital identity toolkit that we had mentioned. Each one of these signs carries the name of the building, carries the name of the year that the building was either found, built or renovated. And then it also carries the address of the building as well. Moving down the hill or actually moving across. So this is at 79 south pleasant. And you can see here that this one, since it is kind of off campus is picking up off of that aubergine and universe and college purple. Converse lot. Again, as you come down from converse hall, this is the entry to converse lot. Converse lot would then have indication of when permit parking is, when no overnight parking and then bringing again the identity of the Amherst college as kind of a watermark along the bottom. We had talked a little bit about the the tricided kiosk. So this is the one that's happening at 79 south pleasant. The idea of incorporating a paved or a cobbled area to place tricided kiosk again with the opportunity for indicating events that are happening at Kirby, the Mead, Beneski and a campus map. Yeah, this location was chosen because we have a lot of visitors that come to the human resources department in particular that's housed in 79 south pleasant. And to have those folks kind of have a greeting, you know, an orientation almost and also just have a feel for what the college is all about even before they walk into HR. And then lastly, as we kind of mentioned, so this is converse hall here. Converse lot is down the hill. Again, as we were leaving our vehicles walking up the hill, indicating this lower kind of tabletop style map. So that folks can kind of come up to it, be able to see the campus, figure out where they need to go and be able to navigate their way through and then pick up with the pedestrian directionals on the inside of campus. Sam, if I could just say a few things about the design and of course, which the Historic Commission might be interested in, some of the rationale for these design decisions that we've made. In every opportunity that we can, we're introducing a granite as a pedestal material for particularly for the map kiosks. And this is for the most part reclaimed granite that's in storage. That is a material that occurs elsewhere on campus. And so you're going to see a unity of material throughout campus and the signage as well. The dark purple, which Sam is calling Aubergine is virtually black, but it does retain some of the Amherst identity in that purple tone. But it will definitely read very much as a very dark tone. And the reason we're doing that is because we like the way a dark sign panel recedes in the landscape. Okay, and what pops is the information on that sign. So very legible information, but a sign that tends to again meld with the environment. The posts are a charcoal gray tone picking up on that granite tonality, as well as a black wrought iron kind of bracket that attaches to the post. So there are traditional techniques and materials and approaches, but in also a contemporary kind of design that we think creates something that is we hope enduring and more sort of on the timeless spectrum as opposed to very stark contemporary forms and approaches and avoiding the sort of ye old approach as well. So we're trying to strike a nice balance there from a design perspective as well. For what is the rationale behind many of our decisions. Maybe, Sam, you can circle back to the kit of parts from the beginning and folks can raise any questions or concerns they have. So let's begin with maybe questions of information or clarification from members of the commission. I have one to begin with, and is there for the areas that the historical commission is being asked to focus on, is there a plan and I think maybe you might have that or might have shown it that shows the locations of both college signs and town signs. Yeah, so all of our zoning plans, the ZP series of this presentation, they both indicate the town signs as well as the college signs. So you'll see town sign seven, town sign six, town sign four, and town sign five. Judge, just for a little bit of clarification, Sam, or go ahead, Tom. You're probably going to say the same thing I am. Go ahead, keep going. The blue boundary, I can't move the mouse because I don't have control of the screen, but the blue boundary that you're seeing that includes all the signs that were shown by Sam, including some of the ones in the renderings, that's actually the design review board overlay boundary and includes some signs like the tabletop map kiosk display F3004 that are not on the town common. And so there's a little bit here that we've presented that's actually a little bit outside your purview. The ones that we specifically are requesting historical commission insight on are the ones on the town common. So it'd be ones on this particular page like B100, 3A100, 1B100, 6, the ones on town owned land. Right. I'm sorry if that's a little confusing. There's a lot of overlapping jurisdictions here. And so it's right. We're talking to the design review board shortly. And so it's slightly different because there's a clear definition that's in the bylaws of their purview and it extends whatever it is a hundred feet from the edge of the common or something like that. Okay. Thank you. Chris Brestrup and then Janet Markwood. I made a list of the signs that I think the historical commission would want to focus on that are within the purview of the historical commission because they're on the town common. So if you wanted to go through that list, I'd be happy to review that. And Emerson College could show you where the location is and what the sign looks like. Okay. Would that be helpful to you? Well, I think it would be helpful to me. Does Jan want to chime in before we do that in case it informs this whatever we're? Well, I was just going to ask some sort of general questions of both. One is if both the town and the college are pointing towards museums in the center of town. So we're both pointing towards Emily Dickinson. We're both pointing theoretically south to the Eric Carl and the Yusha Book Center. If we're all pointing towards parking or the town center, what about having one directional cluster of signs and then things that are Amherst College could be in the aubergine and blue or purple on the same set of directional signs rather than repeating? I mean, we do have an awfully lot of signs, as you pointed out, and you just showed that they're going to be stacked up right behind each other. If you have a sign pointing towards the center of town and we have a sign pointing towards the center of town, what's the point? Why can't we have one sign on one post that we share? And it says once, center of town parking. Also, if on the town signs, if there's a P in blue for parking on town common, why do we have to have another blue sign that says parking point in the same direction? And will the banner come down that says parking all these ways? I mean, it's just overwhelming. So am I correct in thinking that this is one of the issues you want some input on from us and from the design review board? We have already started these conversations with the town. We actually had a meeting earlier today with David Zomek and Christine Brestrup and Ben and Marie Pollock and our whole team to try to resolve some of these issues. And so we are on top of that. Part of this is just a sequence thing. We haven't resolved all of these yet, but we are not, to put it to put it simply, Jen, we are not planning to repeat messaging. But I'm going to be at 8 o'clock tonight too, so you'll hear this again. This has not been, it's going to take us a little bit of time to work through, you know, exactly what is on what side, but the planning department and Ben and Christine can correct me if I'm wrong. But it's my understanding that they have approval by town council for locations, but the specific messaging on each sign is being worked through by the planning department. And so we are going to continue those discussions with them. And we came up with a system earlier today where they reinforce each other and Andrew might want to talk to that more. But we reinforce each other, but we do not duplicate each other's messages. The intent is not to duplicate messages. If we are currently saying on our sign downtown left, we're going to be removing that information from our sign and it will be strictly a message that the town signage will convey. Similarly, if we're referring to the Emily Dickinson Museum, we need, we'll be making a decision within the town as to who wants to refer to that museum, us or us or the town. It is an Amherst College venue, but it's also one of those destinations where sort of the exception proves the rule. It's a global sort of destination and perhaps it's more appropriate on a town sign, but that's to be determined. But in general, we're not repeating messages, we're not referring to the Art Carl Museum or any other colleges, obviously. So if we say museum, it's really the Mead, the Nasky, those sorts of things. Things that are right on campus. Yeah, that was college problems. Is there a concern about sharing a post and who maintains the signs? Like if you were to have all the directional signs split between the college and the town on one post, is that a concern over who owns the maintenance of that then? Well, I think we're just in the beginning stages of that kind of coordination, Jan. And right now our thinking is that it's a tandem sort of thing where you first come upon the town signage with all that information, and then secondarily you come upon an Amherst college sign about their destinations. That may be the smartest approach, but if there is this sort of melding opportunity, that's something to explore and discuss, but that's not currently our thinking. Because it would kind of mix up the wayfinding systems, right? If you had a post with four or five of the town wayfinding colors and fonts, and then you have two of the Amherst college colors and fonts inserted in between. I mean, I think it would work well. It brands the college separately from the town, but it may not be considered aesthetically as, I don't know, slob. Yeah, it might start, it might end up being more confusing than clear, you know, when you start seeing all this sort of color coding in one sign, you now have to learn what that color coding system is in order to fully decipher what that sign is trying to say. I think the other issue with putting all of that stuff in one sign is if you're driving along, in our experience, you know, a driver can really take in maybe most messages, possibly six, but when you start putting it all together into one sign, you know, people's eyes tend to glaze over and just like, you know, it's just too much information. So there's a lot to work out, and we're starting that work with the town, but you're absolutely, you get the mail on the head in terms of let's not repeat information. How can we coordinate locations and all this kind of stuff, so we're going to be doing that for sure. I'm going to ask Pat, Colin Pat. Yes, thank you. I'm actually going to be echoing Jan because I had the same thought watching some of the placement of the signs where there was a pole with the Amherst College directions, and then six feet away the town of Amherst directions. And I agree with Jan, there might be some way to have one pole and unify directions to parking to cultural to whatever, but I was disturbed by the couple of slides you've showed where there were duplicate signs very close to one another and the necessity of doing that. I can understand the gateways to Amherst College. I can understand your on-campus signage, and I can understand your wanting anyone coming to Amherst College to be oriented to the town, but to have multiple poles with multiple signs within a few feet each other seems somehow contradictory to signage help. Tom, did you have your did you want to respond? Yeah, I did. I wanted to clarify that that was not intended to show the solution. That was intended to show the problem and that we just started today to collaborate with the folks from the town on figuring out how to best solve that problem. So the reason we showed that image is to show that we've got a problem to solve, not that this is the answer. I think we all recognize that it doesn't work as designed because and there's a history here that we designed something that responded to what the town had originally proposed, but then that changed. And so now we're kind of circling back and catching up with that. So again, the this review is happening before we could, you know, because this is happening real time literally today, before we could actually, you know, get through that coordination process. And it's the only part of the whole signage approval process, which of course involves many, many signs that we're not looking at. This is the only part that's problematic. So you're happening, you're you happen to have, you know, kind of purview related to the exact area where we've got work to do collaborating with the town. So I just, you know, felt I should let you know. We don't like it, you know, that's not that's not how it's going to be. Well, it was obvious to Janet, to me, perhaps, Hedy, who has her hand up that those things were problematic and needed to be resolved. So we need to speak of them. And I'm glad to know that you're working on it. Thank you. Hedy? Well, thank you very much for presenting all this information. It is, it is, I'm going to try and not repeat what Jan and Pat have already talked about. There's one area where I'm really concerned. And that is the corner of Route 9, where it intersects with South Pleasant, onto the corner of Town Common. So on the right will be your gateway sign with the seat wall in Aubergine. I think the letters of that sign are too large, even with universal design considerations in mind, for the scale of that very important junction in town. And on the other side, where the Amherst downtown sign would be for the town of Amherst, that Ben showed us, do we, maybe I'm kind of being very, like, I've moved here, I know how to find my way around, you know, do we really need the word Amherst again? Couldn't we just have a sign that says downtown to the left? I mean, I have only been here for years, and I really loved walking around Amherst College's campus and finding the mead and going to the Banaske Museum with my kids, and then hearing Blair Payman last week talking about the memorial site. You know, so I have this idea now that do you want as a college to have anyone walk up the hill to the top, to the past the Frost Library and to the summit, if you like, to see the Holy Oak Range? Do you want that to be something that people experience, whether they're planning on coming to the college or not? It just seems to me a really, you know, crucial place to go, you know, when kind of getting to know the town. So you know, I'd love to see some wayfinding that's appropriate, you know, develop to, so that we are encouraged to walk and leave our cars behind if we can, or, you know, find our way through the landscape to that view from where commencement or graduation is located and the view down to the fields. That's just really me kind of talking off the top of my head. I did wonder, as we were listening to your presentations, about whether these kiosks or banners or gateways or tabletop signs might not have embedded within them some kind of electronic connection so that people could call up information or further directions or land acknowledgement information, which I think is really great. I think all of those things are possible when you start to sort of layer these signs between the town and the college. And yeah, we have a lot of street furniture, you know, that we're considering in the meeting tonight. And we want to look beyond that to see what's behind the signs or behind the table top kiosks. We want that to not be an impediment. So I feel for you as well, just having to sort of consider those design issues. Just to respond to your thoughts and questions, which I think are terrific. The rationale from a wayfinding standpoint is, as Sam had mentioned, you know, this is very much a pedestrian campus. And so our focus in terms of what we're talking, telling folks in cars is essentially, you know, first we're taking care of the admissions and the athletics thing, because, you know, we're really focused on prospective students, obviously, and first time visitors, but also focusing on parking that is in tandem with the museum message. So what we're trying to do is get folks to the principal parking resources, get out of their car, and then at every single parking lot, we have that two sided map chaos that has a map and a unique you are here noted so that you can immediately upon getting out of your car, orient yourself to the overall campus, where all the museums are labeled and the music hall and theaters and and everything like that so that you have a sense of where you are in relation to those things. And then we have a series of smaller scale pedestrian directional signs, not a trail of breadcrumbs certainly because we don't want to clutter the campus with a bunch of stuff, but enough at key decision points to get you on your way. And then with these taller banners at the arrival point of a museum or the music hall or theater, announcing and celebrating these these key destinations on campus. So that's kind of the strategy. And in answer to your question, don't you want people to walk up and see these things? A most emphatic? Yes. And we're hoping that this strategy, this sort of combination of getting folks in cars to the right lot, getting them out of their car, orienting them and trailblazing them to these locations, you know, we think will be successful. Certainly there'll be a kick the tires period of time, but you know, that's that's the approach. And then where we can coordinate with the town messaging to reinforce all of that, I think would be great, you know, that's that's sort of the idea. Chris. So I just wanted to mention the fact that the Historical Commission is not being asked to look at all of the signs that were presented tonight. And I'm so glad that Amherst College did present a broader view of their sign program, but there are really 10 signs that I counted that are actually signs that are within the town common that we would like the Historical Commission to focus on. And so when you get to that point, I'd be happy to kind of walk you through what those signs are, and then you might want to have a discussion about each one. Thank you, Chris. You know, sort of reflecting on both of these presentations and especially the visuals that the areas that are most interested in are concerned about are, is that strip down Route 9 between South Pleasant Street and Boltwood, where there are just a lot of signs. And then the other places where there's potential overlap, not necessarily confusion, but potential overlap is where there are Amherst College signs on town property or town right of way. So I have one quick question, and then I think it might be a good thing for us to look at Chris Restreps' list of signs specifically linked to the town common. And that question is, is there is there any Amherst College signage plan for the in on Boltwood, or is that going to kind of stand alone as it is right now? For the in on Boltwood. Yeah, because that borders the town common. No, there's nothing proposed that is, you know, at that property or near that property or even referring to it. It's to the, you know, unless you really know, it's a separate entity. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Chris, would you, would you mind sort of leading us through those 10 signs? Yes, let's start at the top. Can we see the rendering of each one as she says it? That would be nice. Yeah, yep. I will do my best. Okay, because it'd be nice to think in terms of how does this look framed, how does this affect the historical architecture and environment behind it, as she's telling us where it is. So the first sign that is within the town common area is the sign on Main Street. And it is on the northern side of Main Street. And it's a small, what Amherst College calls a trailblazer sign. And there's been discussion with the town about whether this sign is actually needed because the town is going to have at least one, if not more post directional signs up at the intersection of Main Street and South Pleasant. And so whether this sign here is redundant or not is a question that we're discussing. But this is one of the signs that we consider to be within the area of the town common. It also happens to be placed exactly where there is just been a Ryder's block sign installed. Is that right? Yep. Right there. Uh-huh. It's a slightly different location, but it's close by. It's those steps, and it's still the left-hand steps, isn't it? No, the Ryder's block sign is in front of the lime red tea house. Yeah. I'm going to just jump in to say, sorry, Jane, I was just going to say, I think this is probably moot because I think this is very likely to go away and be incorporated into the town wayfinding. Okay. So just one thing about process is that because there are 10 of these signs, and now nine, happily just nine, it may be most useful to discuss each one just in the moment, you know, when Chris shows us the sign and the location. Maybe we can share our thoughts at that point rather than try to get to the end of all of them and try to remember what we've seen and comment on. That sounds good. Let's do that. Okay. The second sign is on the north side of College Street, which is route nine. It's number B1.003. It's a vehicular directional sign, and it's a large sign. So that would be this sign here. And there are a number of comments that we have about this sign. One is that the Public Works Department would prefer that the sign be on the opposite side of the sidewalk and that it be at least eight feet off the sidewalk so that they can get their equipment under it. And then the other thing is that the town has a post directional sign that we would like to put along this area here. So the town and Amherst College have some discussion that needs to go on about exactly where is the proposed Amherst College sign going to go? What's it going to say and what is our sign going to say? So I wonder if, well, maybe we should have a discussion about this and then decide that we need to have another meeting with Amherst College. The staff needs to have another meeting with Amherst College to decide what the resolution of this location is going to be. Could you make the resolution larger so we can see what it says, what it's pointing towards? Sam, maybe you could just diminish the pages. Yeah, that's what I'm working on. I think that the input there from DPW, I believe that's new information for us. So we have another layer of complication here. And if you put it on the other side of the sidewalk, this green sign is going to hide it. Yeah, that's very good. Well, one solution is that you flip the orientation of the panel to post. So the post could be on the back side of the sidewalk as requested, but the panel would essentially almost stay in the same location. So the post would go to the right-hand side as opposed to the left-hand side, but the panel would essentially suspend over the sidewalk. How high is the bottom from the ground? The DPW says eight feet is what they would prefer so they can get there. What's the proposal? You had some dimensions on one of the sheets. We do have them. I believe that they are seven feet currently. Yeah, 10, 6, and 3, 2. Chris, do you mean by eight feet, do you mean eight feet vertically or eight feet horizontally? Eight feet vertically to the bottom of the sign. To be able to drive under it. Yeah. It's actually about seven feet, six inches right now to the bottom of the sign. I'm sorry, the town sign is, I believe, seven feet to the bottom of the sign. So is that an issue that the DPW is taking with the town as well? Yes. Okay. Yeah, this is getting into the weeds a little bit. I think there's some discussion about whether if the sign isn't really hanging over the sidewalk per se, the height can maybe be less than eight feet, but if it's going to hang over the sidewalk, then I guess DPW does have concerns about a snow plow operators going under there. So I think it's just a conversation we need to figure out exactly what is the requirement there. Okay. Sure. So one of my thoughts about, I mean, is the, yeah, the number of signs here, we've got sort of two lane designation signs in quick succession. There's a town sign proposed. And is this, this is, this is not the corner where there's some other kind of, there is a welcome. This is not the corner on this side. There's, yeah, there's a welcome sign here also. Be a welcome sign. Basically the other way up at the corner. Yeah. There's a tentative sign up at the top of the hill, but down at the bottom of the hill. Right here. There's a town sign, right? Oh, the welcome sign. Yeah. So the town is proposing a sign right there. Yep. Okay. Plus the street names. Don't forget the street names. Yeah. A lot of signs. And I see, I see this kind of ragged little, you know, connect the dots thing of poles or signs on either side of the sidewalk. Yeah. It's, that's a bit of a concern. I think this little strip is trying to do too much. I have one. Sorry. Okay. Go ahead. Dumb little comment, but there happens to be a sign there that says Amherst town center next right. Presumably that would go away with the new system, the one that's kind of crooked there underneath the 116 outside. Oh, thank goodness. Yeah, something's going to come down. So what Guilford has told us about these signs is that some of them are actually required on numbered roadways. So even though the town owns this portion of route nine, the state still has a say over what kinds of signs go there. So I think you're right. We could probably eliminate Amherst center next right, but we may not be able to eliminate the top portion of the sign. Oh no, you wouldn't want to. I know this would be terribly awkward, but could the Amherst college sign go on the other side of the street? Well, there is going to be one for facing the other direction. When you're coming east, there's going to be another one. Maybe it could be a two-sided sign. So in our experience, having directional information on the opposite side of the road that you're traveling is problematic. You know, you're focused straight ahead and you can really just about manage seeing the information to your right hand side. But if now you're putting that information on the other side of the road, you're now having to look over traffic and you're looking at a greater distance for the information. So you need to scale that information up to get it to be legible. So we really discourage very much putting directional information for eastbound folks on the westbound side. So what to, yeah, and I completely understand that, but I mean, yeah, are there standards or some kind of measures to understand how difficult it is for drivers to take in seven signs in a row in that short distance? So there's street, there's welcome, there's highway, there's Amherst college directional, there's town, there are two lane designation signs, and there's the back of a welcome sign. So that's an awful lot of signage right there in that very short distance. Yeah, we would agree. And that's what we're coordinating with the town to manage that. We would not encourage adding another sign here into the mix of signs that the town is providing. So we need to coordinate not only the number of signs here, but the position and also the information. So there's some information that we're currently carrying that we no longer need to carry because it would be occupied on a town sign. Then, you know, and we are looking at this maybe more tandem approach where our information is actually maybe more looking at that. But we would agree that adding another sign to this mix is problematic and certainly we need to coordinate that. Chris, has Guilford told you whether it's a state requirement that we have two of those lane signs? Seems a little redundant, awfully close together. Especially as it's marked on the street too. I will ask him about that. And I also wanted to comment on the fact that the welcome sign at the top of the hill was a kind of late idea. In fact, I think it was possibly the town manager who came up with that idea. But it was in response to our looking for a way of having a welcome sign coming from the west. And we've looked at a number of locations coming from University Drive up the hill. And the town manager wasn't exactly satisfied with any of those locations. So he said, well, why don't we put a sign on this corner of the town common? Prior to that, Ben and I had been working on the way finding system and we had a post directional sign at that intersection rather than having a welcome sign. So that's something that the town our staff needs to work that out and decide are we having a welcome sign there or are we going to have a post directional sign? If we have our post directional sign up there, then it's not going to be as confusing and muddy here with too many signs in a row. I mean, there will be more of a distance between the signs. So that's something that we have to consider. But I wonder if, you know, if the town welcome sign sign goes there, could that be a two sided sign that has the information that both the town sign and the college sign has on it? It's a good question. I think if you're talking about directional information, drivers need a little bit of forewarning before having to actually make the decision to turn or to go straight. And so to have that information right at that point is a little too late. That's why you see these kinds of directional signs preceding the actual decision point. So that's typically why we wouldn't do that. Also, the town sign has said it's sort of an angle, isn't it Chris? It's not straight. Well, if we put a directional sign there, it would be straight. But if we're putting yeah, I was just saying we're saying if we use the back of the welcome sign, but it wouldn't be straight across. Not straight. No, that's right. I think a particularly fruitful approach could be that the town welcome is something that's stated at the point in which you actually enter Amherst. That's what they were trying to do. Yeah, this is a major decision point here, not necessarily a welcome point, unlike the college campus where this is in fact the edge of the campus where we do want to welcome people. But that said, it sounds also like a big decision maker for putting the Amherst welcome sign here was that it will carry the downtown message. But that's really a message that could be well suited on a directional sign. I'm saying so. If part of the impetus for a sign there is getting that messaging at that point, that could certainly be done with a directional sign, which sounded like your original intent, Chris. Chris, now that the back corner of university and what's not still there, what is it? University and route nine. Now that that's being developed and that little house is gone and everything. Would that maybe be a better space for a sign? Yes. As a matter of fact, we're talking to Barry Roberts and his attorney about the potential for putting a welcome sign on Barry Roberts property at the university, at what is it called, one university drive south where that new building is going. Yeah. And then that would, that would take care of the welcome to the town and we wouldn't have to have one here. Yes. It makes more sense. Yeah. So that's still under in conversation. We haven't all right. I'm going to ask Kat who has her hand up and then Robin. Just some thoughts. Jane, I share with you the concern about the multi signs in this very short stretch. And one thought that I have, if it's important to Amherst college to designate the directions to their admission center and their athletic buildings, could that go in the corner or preceding but would that Amherst college has housing on or buildings that they own and add a line to it right turn on route 116. And then it would allow the town to give directionality during this period stage. And, you know, your observation or jans that we've got two signs, directionality for lanes seems quite unnecessary. But I think the sign that is the state sign, I guess, Chris, you said told us that that Amherst center next right would suffice for that. And so maybe it's a diminishing of signs there as opposed to an addition of signs because it's a very busy short stretch and the town might not need to do the welcome sign there if coming from the east and there probably is a similar sign to this on the other side of South Pleasant Street to use that to facilitate directions to the center of town, which is important. It's economically important for Amherst. But I think that Amherst college could move, if it's important to Amherst college move the sign back, leave it on that north side of the street, but move it back across boatwood to where they they have the property. I think that's part of what we're going to be exploring with the town planning department and their sign locations. Like, you know, are we again doing this sort of tandem approach before and after boltwood, for example, as you're suggesting. So we're going to be I think it seems more appropriate to have the Amherst college signs before boltwood because that is your property. And to minimize the signage as you approach 116, leaving the Amherst center next right, then there could be other signs that belong at Amherst property that would designate. I'm sure that, you know, Amherst wants to also designate the direction to UMass. And so we're tonight, we're talking about Amherst college. And I agree with Heady that we would love post pandemic to be able to walk the campus. It's been closed for 18 months now. And so there are sites on campus, you might want to have signage. But I think this little stretch is just just would be overloaded with signage. And I'm all for simplicity. I wonder if we might want to respectfully move on. We've got eight more to talk about. Yeah, I'd like to recognize Robin who's had her hand up. And then I think we do need to move. Sure. I'll be brief. I concur with the need to declutter as a relatively recent parent of visiting college students. I see the logic of that directional sign being right there. And I don't quite understand the logic of the Amherst welcome sign at that particular intersection. It seems like that should be more at the periphery of the town. And by the time you've gotten to this intersection, you'd likely know you are already in Amherst. So those are my points. Thank you. So, Chris, where we're marching on, we're rushing on to sign number three. Sign number three is a grand sign. It's called the downtown gateway sign. It's at the corner of College Street and South Pleasant Street. It's this welcome sign into the Amherst college campus. So it really marks kind of the entry into the campus, even though this is actually town property, but Amherst College has been maintaining this portion of the campus and to all intents and purposes, it appears to be part of the campus. Thank you. I love it. I mean, I love the granite seat bench and the post, and it just is really, really nice right there. So I see, Pat, you still have your hand up and Robin, Robin has taken your hand up. Yeah, I just had a question. I'm remembering from the presentation of the sign that it's four feet high, and I appreciate that that's for the visual of it, but the sign directing to down by the entrance to the athletic buildings and emissions is lower than that. And so just in terms of height of these signs, what decisions are being made? And does that figure into the townside discussion? Well, it's more to do with the geometry of the site, to be honest with you, that the two signs are actually very similarly scaled. It's just that this grade is sloping downward. And so you end up with a taller support of granite here. And so it's really this height that gets to the four feet, as opposed to the other end of it here, which is more in the line of two and a half to three feet. So the other site, which we'll look at is relatively flat. And so it's really just like, you know, that sort of thing. So it really has mostly to do with the grading of the site, Pat, and not necessarily the overall scale of the sign itself, they're very similarly scaled signs. Sorry for the confusion. Well, that's all right. I just, I think that they're tasteful. I'll use that word. And they serve their purpose. I just had a question as to why one was seemingly more prominent than the other. And it's at a more prominent location. So that could be part of it. But I hadn't taken into consideration the grade, or how important that seating, it doesn't, the seating part doesn't look as prominent here as it does in the other location at the athletic buildings and admissions. Yeah, the seating at this particular location is shorter than the one over athletics. Athletics, I believe, is around 23 feet of seating. And then this one is around 18 feet. And how high is the seating at its lowest point? At its lowest point, it's six, I believe it goes from 16 to 18 inches. Okay. And I guess that works for most people. 18 inches is considered standard for a bench. Thank you. It's a nice thing to have too. I've waited for that crosswalk signal for quite a while at times. So it has a practical function too, which is kind of nice. Yeah. I agree with that, Andrew, but I'll come back to my kind of introductory remarks. The real notion, I think, for us, for the college is that it signals welcoming. And sure, you can sit here. Maybe you never will. But as you drive by, you see like, oh, there's a place you could sit. It's a welcoming gesture. And so that's really kind of the, again, the kind of the core intentionality behind all of this. I was glad to see that the other one, you are styling it as a photo op because this is also going to become one. And there's going to be people standing in the middle of the intersection to get back, to get the whole family in. So it's good that the other is more attractive for that. It's going to happen either way, though. Here. Heddy, do you have a comment? Question? Yes, I do. It's just a comment. As we're at this location, I'm wondering whether there could be assigned to the AME church. I always want to call it Wayland Street. It's not Wayland Street, but Woodside. Is it Woodside Avenue? Help me out. Woodside Church, isn't it? So that's an important place in AME. And also at the Strong House, the AME History Museum. I didn't see any signs for that. But that would be on the town side. Yes, of course. I'm feeling like I'm straying into territory that may not be to do with the history of the common. So I'm not feeling like I'm on very strong ground here. And I'm sort of looking for us to kind of keep as close as we can to, you know, what we're here for. And now that I've said that I thought the sign was too big, you know, which I realize is maybe completely beside the point in terms of what my role as a commissioner might really be in this meeting. So I just look to Ben and Jane to just clarify that maybe a little bit. Okay, thank you, Heddy. I see Robin's hand up and Janet's hand up. And then as we move to sign number four, I'm going to ask people to confine their comments and questions to 30 seconds. Yeah, thanks, Jane. I just wanted to remind people we do have a few other things on the agenda. Hopefully we get to them, but maybe maybe we won't. But yeah, the purview of the commission is really on how do these signs impact the view of the historical landscape of the town common. So I mean, you can certainly offer input on the design of the signs and the size and all that. That's welcome. But that's kind of what the ask is. Yeah, I was just going to concur with that and look for just guidance from as we're commenting. Let us know if we're just faring into what should be discussed in design review so that we can just be more efficient and yeah, that's it. Okay, thank you, Jane. I'm just wondering what those silhouettes are, those two tall narrow signs in white. Is that more directional signs proposed? Those will be new proposed crosswalk signs that the DRT is putting in. Who is? No, the state is putting in. Oh, the DRT. Oh, so there's going to be even more clutter. I mean, it even affects your sign, you know, a little bit. Okay. Can I just interject something here, Jane? Yes, please. I wanted to let the Historical Commission know that the Mass DOT, Massachusetts Department of Transportation, is planning a major improvement from University Drive all the way up through this intersection up to the top of the hill. So they'll be replacing crosswalks and repaving and they'll be adding a multi-use path or actually two five-foot-wide sidewalks and bicycle lanes and restriping and doing all kinds of things here. So Amherst College has offered to make specific changes to the pavement around this Amherst College sign to make it more navigable and just better looking and they're paying for that as part of the Mass DOT effort to improve this road from South Pleasant Street down to University Drive. Just wanted to let you know about that. Nice. Thank you. So let's go to the next sign. Okay, the next sign is a vehicular directional sign and it's located at South Pleasant Street just south of College Street. So it's a sign on a pole and that's the sign right there. The town also has a sign proposed in this location. It's a post-directional sign. We're feeling that we can move our sign farther to the south closer to the driveway that goes in. I forget the name of the driveway but Quadrangle Drive. Thank you so much. So to get it out of the way of this Amherst College sign that this is the sign that Amherst College is proposing here. And what is the content of this sign? Upper is arrow to the right museums and visitor parking. Forward would be the Emily Dickinson Museum. Again, whether or not that remains is up in the air. Whether or not that becomes part of the town we're finding. And then also downtown. Okay, thank you. And then the town sign, the content of the town sign at that location. Can you show that then? Yeah, it's um, let's see, I have it up here. I think it definitely points downtown straight ahead, Jones Library, straight ahead parking, straight ahead town hall, straight ahead and also Dickinson Museum. So we would remove the redundancies here in the messaging, obviously, and reconfigure our sign accordingly. Pat, is your hand up? Yes, it is. I'm going back to a previous comment about the town signage that anything straight ahead should also include the Amherst Historical Society Museum. I just thought I heard the Jones Library, but the Amherst Historical Museum should probably also be on that sign. Okay, thank you. It's a town treasure. Robin? That was an error. It's a good point about the History Museum. Okay, so the town has an idea of what to do with its sign. Okay, any other discussion of this location? Okay, what's the next sign? Sign is, um, it is a secondary gateway sign. It's at the corner of Quadrangle Drive in South Pleasant Street on the south side of the intersection. What's the number, Chris? It's a 2.002. And this is facing which direction? You are entering Quadrangle Drive and as if you're coming from the north or the west. The sign is perpendicular to South Pleasant, so you'll see coming southbound and west and northbound. The town doesn't have any signs in this location. Any other comments, questions? I would just mention to Tom that if the college is trying to keep people from driving in there, it's not clear and if you're going to the library and you're dropping things at the library, you have to go all the way around the circle to get to the front of the library. It might be good if the library had a drop area down below in that parking lot on College Street if you want to restrict vehicular traffic through here. Is Tom still there? Yes. We're all taking notes. Taking notes, exactly. Okay, the next sign. The next sign is at Quadrangle Drive on the south side of Quadrangle Drive. It's a vehicular directional small sign. It's B2.002. And to this, it's within the town common, even though it appears to be on Amherst College campus. It's on Quadrangle Drive. Just as a kind of a general principle, I don't have any concern about that Amherst College signage system in the interior of the common area that's maintained by Amherst College. I guess it's mostly, for me, just looking at the kind of lineup of signs on the street side on the main town thoroughfares. So I have no comment about these on the interior. Okay, and I agree with you. I consider this interior campus, and there's no conflict. Okay, let me then proceed. The next sign is, it's a horizontal gateway sign. So this is the sign that's going to be similar to the one, the sort of grand sign that we saw with the seating wall. This sign is located at the driveway that leads to the gym and to the oar rink. And it's a kind of welcoming area for the athletic center. Nice crocuses. I guess, can I just confirm that tree, or suggestion of the tree, those are existing, right? I think they are. That is the boss of pine trees that are currently located. The intent is to possibly limb up some of that. But the intent is for those trees to remain. Great. But we are proposing some surface level improvements here. So the walkway, correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, but the walkway would be repaved. Correct. Can you show a map of how this interacts with the roadway there so that the mission can see where this is? It's in the planning board submission. Sam, do you have that handy? I have it handy if you don't. I should be able to take it up real quick. And while he's looking for that, Pat, do you have a question? I don't have a question. I just have a comment that having gone to many hockey games at Amherst College, I'm familiar with this entreeway. And I've always thought this was part of the campus. So I don't see this necessarily from my perspective as an issue for the town. It's technically on the South Common. It is. But it is part of that Common that's maintained. Correct. Yeah. And so it doesn't intrude on the town per se, but it gives a nice opportunity for people who are going to the admissions or to the sports arenas, a welcome, an Amherst College welcome. And so I don't know the legal particulars involving this, but I think it's probably a nice addition. So you can see where this is located now. The street on the left is South Pleasant Street. And obviously the one on the right is the driveway to the admissions office. And so this will be on the corner of that South Pleasant Street as you enter the college at the athletic center. So it's kind of a cross from like Hitchcock Drive and some of those. Yes. It seems to me an improvement of that entrance. That's certainly the intent. And we've been working with a landscape firm agency on these kinds of landscape improvements because we think that the more we can really integrate the gateway sign with the site and create a real beautiful place for the gateway, I think the better the experience is going to be. So that's the intent. I like it. Great. Yeah. I don't have an issue with this particular signage. I like it as well. So next sign. Next sign is a parking lot sign, a parking lot ID sign. It's called D1.007. It's at the entry to the parking lot at the gym and or rink. Unfortunately, we do not have that one rendered. We do have an elevation of it. However, it's right across the street from the one you're looking at now. It's a location. So the location is the blue sort of turquoise sign that Seth is pointing to now. Sam, can you zoom into that the plan blow up there? Because there's multiple signs here that they're going to talk about. They're going to talk about all this. Yeah. So we just looked at A1.002, which is the purple one. Now we're talking about D1.007, which is the one opposite that. And that's going to look like what you have here. On the left. No concerns. Objections. This definitely seems like on campus signage. Yeah. Okay. The next one is a different color. The next one is B1.008. It's a vehicular directional primary sign. It's at the south end of the parking lot. And it doesn't show up in this image, but I think it shows up. Yeah, that's it. That orange sign right there. So that points to admission, alumni gym or rank left for Pratt field and forward for downtown. So that is kind of close to the edge of the road. So you would see that driving north towards the center of town as you pass the athletic facilities. So the previous sign was it parallel to the road? What is the relationship between their orientation? Previous sign was north at the north end of this parking lot. And this one is at the south end of the parking lot. Okay, thank you. And Amherst College maintains this area so the height of snow plow passage doesn't matter. This is a VPW issue. Okay. I also do not believe that there is a sidewalk at this area. There's not. Next. The next one is the last one and it's a vehicular directional secondary sign B2.004. And it is on the south side of the drive to the gym and or rank. And based on your previous comments, it seems that you would kind of view this sign as being part of the campus signage. So whoever is showing this, Sam was just moving his cursor around there and showing you where that sign is located. It's the orange sign here. And it's going to look like this sign on the left, on the right, B2.004. So you're looking east when you're looking at it? Yes, plain east, yes. Okay. Okay. So now having seen all of the signs and locations, first of all, I'll ask members of the commission if they have any other sort of summary comments or questions. And then I guess I've got a question for the town. So one more place that is really cool on campus is that building that has been kind of turned into a performance space inside near or fair weather, is it? Was it some kind of not pumping station? The powerhouse. Thank you. Sorry, it's getting late. Yeah, that's a really cool place that it's a little bit awkward and wiggly and it's like, am I supposed to be here? Am I not supposed to be here as a town person or not a college person? But very cool. Okay, let's see. So a question I have for the town is, I'm thinking that the town wayfinding system is pretty much baked right now. And that there's no, is there an option, a possibility to make the frame of the town signage a little more compatible with the posts of the college signage. So there is actually no need to answer my question. I'm only just thinking about those signs that are kind of getting close to the same spot. Yeah, I would say I don't know about the design per se. That would start a whole other conversation. But I think that we're open to relocating signs, but it would, if I'm not mistaken, I think that would require further conversations or approvals from town council. But I think we want to make both sign systems work and make them compatible. So we can explore that. Yeah, it's really just the finished color from brown to the difference between the brown and the charcoal. That was mostly what I was referring to. I think we're wedded to the brown color, the dark brown color. In fact, we already have a sign installed that Kendrick clay ground. It was just put in a couple of weeks ago. So we're getting away from the color, the sort of RNG color that we have up on Triangle Street at the roundabout, but we are pretty committed to the brown color. Has the Historical Commission given you some helpful input or feedback? Is there something that we've missed that would be useful to you? I think we would like to have a sort of overall thumbs up or thumbs down, you know, on the 10 signs that you've seen or nine. I can't remember how many. I think there were 10 initially, but perhaps nine that you looked at carefully. And then acknowledging the fact that we still have work to do in the areas where the town has signs and Amherst College has signs. There's more coordination work that needs to be done there. But if you could give us some kind of a positive or hopefully positive recommendation on the Amherst College sign system as it's being proposed for the town common, that would be helpful. Design Review Board meets tomorrow night and the town services and outreach committee is meeting on Thursday. And that may not be their final meeting, but you never know. It could be their final meeting. So they may be looking for, you know, kind of a definitive recommendation from you. And we are doing planning board next Wednesday and disability access, whatever the, sorry, whatever the academic is, the following week. So we've got everybody lined up here. Robin, I was going to suggest that our recommendation, just note the two areas that it sounds like are being worked on regarding duplication and fluttering. That's a good enough summary. But that in general, I think the sense of the commission is that we find the style and design of the signs to be tasteful and in keeping with the look of the town. Right. I mean, everybody kind of agrees with that. Agreed. Agreed. And I think the notes from this meeting will help us to spotlight the areas where we have concern. And that was primarily between South Pleasant Street and Bowwood. There may have been a few others, but primarily our suggestions were just related to user-friendly, but in terms of the town versus Amherst College, that stretch of signage as proposed doesn't work. We agree with that. Yeah, what I can, I was just going to offer, Jane, what I did similarly for the West Cemetery conversation is I can kind of put together notes from this discussion in like kind of a memo form and then just email that out to this group as soon as possible, given how the meetings are coming up. And then just if anyone has any issues with how I've characterized comments, you can let me know over email. But otherwise, I can kind of summarize this conversation over in a memo, send it out, make sure everybody's okay with that, and then transmit that to Amherst College and the DRB and TSO and Town Council kind of as the recommendation and summary of discussion. Thank you, Ben. It sounds good. And Chris, thank you for highlighting those particular sites that help focus us. You're welcome. Okay, thanks to you all. Thank you for spending your evening with the historical commission. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks everyone for coming tonight. Appreciate it. Okay. Thanks, Seth. Thank you. So next is historical commission CPA projects or CPA projects in general. And is there, I think George Norton from the Amherst Historical Society is here and wishing to speak to the CPA process? Yeah, hopefully he's still with us. I just, I put this on the agenda because the CPA process is starting next month. And for those who don't know that CPA is Community Preservation Act Fund. So there's a pot of money that the town can use specifically for historic preservation, recreation and conservation. But often, you know, the historical commission might want to put forth a project idea. The historical commission will also be asked to review projects that are submitted for historic preservation from outside entities, including one of them perhaps being the Strong House, the Amherst Historical Museum. So I think we, if we have time and if we want to, we could talk about CPA projects that historical commission might want to put forth. But also George has been waiting and hoping to talk to us about a CPA application that the Amherst History Museum is interested in pursuing for some restoration work at the Strong House. And what are the dates that we're looking at? Yes, I believe it opens on September 1st and closes on October 1st. So we could potentially have another opportunity to talk about this before the deadline or submission. Okay. At this point, if you could promote George to a panelist, let's hear from him. So hi, George. I hope you're still with us and going a little bit late. But thanks for your patience. I think you're on mute, actually, if I can ask you to unmute there. Okay, good evening. Yeah, please, please share with us what what you have in mind about CPA and the Historical Society. I don't have a prepared speech, but I'm the president of the Amherst Historical Society and Museum. And we have custody of the Strong House, as you know. And about a month ago, I saw that plaster was falling out of a portion of the second floor ceiling. So we are getting estimates from plasterers about how much repairs will cost and what sort of repairs might be necessary. If some plaster is falling, then other plaster might be ready to fall. So we need to get an educated trained opinion on all of that. And then once we have cost estimates for the work, we thought that this might fall under the general purview of a community preservation grant. Since the Strong House is on the historic register, it is a historic building and it's the home of the History Museum. I've never dealt with the CPA grant funding process before. So I reached out to the Historical Commission and asked for advice. How do I go about doing this once I have work estimates in hand? I'd like advice on how to go through the process to actually apply for a grant. Okay. So let's see. Ben, has this year's application materials, have they been? No, I think they actually are released or posted online on September 1st. So I've not seen the application quite yet. When we were meeting last year, there was discussion of providing a just a PDF paper example form so that people could review. I was I'm not sure exactly where it would be on the website. Maybe you would know better than I've been. But for this purpose, the applicants could look at the application form before it actually went live. So I don't know if that's there or not. I've not seen it. Okay. Yeah. Historical Society has been an applicant in the past. I'm not sure how long ago it was, but I'm pretty sure that we can find for you a sample application just to get into it from last year to get into your hands so you can see what the questions are and what kind of information is requested. I think you're you are a little bit ahead of the game in having solicited estimates already because that makes for a much stronger application when you have some real real costs and not just ideas about costs. So that's a good you've taken a good step. Multiple estimates are good as well. I know the committee likes to see and I'm by the way, I'm Robin Fordham and I'm the Historical Commission rep on the CPA committee. So I could say that that's helpful to have more than one estimate. And it would be a restoration project. So it should fall under the funding category. It's actually very beautifully straightforward project. I encourage you to apply. That's very encouraging. I think we're getting at least two estimates. I don't know if any of you know Ann Tweedy, but she's been on point for getting the plasterers in there and having them look at it. And then we're going to try to get work estimates, time, money, you know, what's it going to take so that we can get the ceiling back in shape. And then the only other thing to keep in mind is that the CPA has been working toward getting a grant reporting process in place and making sure that funds are expended in a timely manner. So there's a limit of holding on funds for three years and any funds that aren't used for the purposes for which they were awarded or essentially returned to CPA funds. But the reporting process allows for explanations of unanticipated delays. Like, for example, if one had a pandemic that interfered with so just so you know those those. Point taken, yes. Yeah, yeah. I think if, so it is concerning process, Robin, you'll have to help me out here again. We would like the Historical Commission gets to advise the Community Preservation Act Committee about historic preservation projects and, you know, how we would, how we would see the priority of projects. So it's helpful to the applicant to bring a, the completed application or at least a draft application to a Historical Commission meeting. Robin, prior to or post submission? Well, I mean, no prior to, I mean, this project sounds relatively straightforward. So it's not much of a concern. I mean, you're essentially doing what the CPA wants applicants to do, which is come to the appropriate commission and ask questions. Once you submit your application, we'll get to review it anyway, then we'll bring to the commission, the applications that were submitted under Historic Preservation. And at that point, we would review them in the commission meeting and you'd be invited and encouraged to come to that meeting to answer any questions we might have so that we as the commission can develop our recommendation for the committee. And then I take that recommendation to the committee and try to answer questions that they have, you also will present there. Okay, so we will get all of our paperwork together and submit the application and then the Historical Commission will review it and I'll attend and answer any questions. And then then who is the CPA group that actually approves the grant? And I would appear in front of them also. Is that correct? Yes, yeah, they will give you an invitation. There'll be a set presentation date. And then we we recommend to the the projects to the town council. So we can all right, Nanjane, you have to tell me if I have this. We can we can recommend it to the town council, then the town council can decide whether to approve it or not. I suppose if we don't recommend it to the town council, then the town council cannot overrule us. I think that's correct. That sounds right, Jane. If we don't, if the CPAC doesn't recommend something to town council, but it won't be funded, but we don't have the ability to say it definitely should be funded. Right. Yes, that's the distinction between Historical Commission and CPA committee. If the CPA committee does not recommend it to town council, then it won't go forward. And I do have I'm on the web page that at least has last year's information, which it looks like has a good bit of information on it at least. I looked up propose it. If you if you Google Amherst Massachusetts Community Preservation Act, it looks like the third hit on Google is proposed a community preservation project. So propose a project Amherst mass should get you there. And that'll give you an overview. Okay criteria and submission information there, too. And that will I guess that will be where the live link is when the application process opens. Very good. I will be sure to go there. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you for coming to tell us about what's happening at the strong house. And we hope we can help you stop it. We think that bats are getting in, actually. One of our people has gotten phone calls in the middle of the night about the motion sensors kicking in. It's been traced to bats. And we think that maybe the bats are getting in through the wood labs that no longer have plaster on. Yeah. Well, you've got rolling consequences of the plaster. It's an old house. It needs work. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So how about historical commission CPA projects? Let's see. I guess just a status update where we've had a little bit of staff turn over in the accounting department, but we've we're about to put out the RFP for headstone restoration at West Cemetery. It's taken far too long. So hopefully that'll be a project that gets underway in the fall and finished up in the spring. So that's a CPA funded project. That was part two of three parts, right? That was there's two allocations of $50,000 for and so we're doing this work for $100,000. So this is two and three then because we already did for 50. Okay. Yeah. Correct. We're getting close to the initial plan. I mean, there's probably stuff that's gotten messed up since. Yeah. But we're getting close. Great. So we don't need to propose one more right now. I don't think so. I think part of the work that we're asking the consultant or the memorial, kind of like I'm blanking on the name, the folks that are the conservator. That's the word. Yeah, conservator. Part of their work is that, you know, most of the money will go towards actual restoration work, but we're also going to ask them to do a little bit of survey work just to advise on condition or like kind of remaining scope of work and more of a better sense, maybe this time next year of what remains. But as far as I understand, this should take care of kind of the most problematic remaining stones at West Cemetery. Great. That's a relief. So we have talked, I guess, every so often the last couple of years, at least about possibly updating the preservation plan and whether that is an acceptable project for CPA funding. Yeah. And Jane, we actually, let me double check, but we actually have money for that from maybe 2017 that we definitely should use. Oh my gosh, we should. Yeah. Yeah, we proposed it. We've just never done the work. Yeah. Preservation plan update from what is that? Is that 2020? No, that was pretty recent. Okay. Fiscal year 2020. So what was that? That was 20, 25,000. What is the date of the preservation plan 2005? Because, okay, because I just downloaded the whole thing because I thought I should read it. And then is the fiscal, this is so confusing, the fiscal year for the CPA grant is based on the year that it's awarded, right? So that would have been cited on in 2019. Correct. Yeah. Right. Okay. So for that, fiscal years were confusing enough. Yeah. So, sorry, not to have a grasp of this, but did we, did we create an RFP for that? No. Okay. I think that's something we definitely, I think my recollection is a conversation we had was, you know, wanting to kind of get through the bylaw first. Oh yeah. Put that aside. Oh no wonder. Yeah. We were being optimistic proposing in that year. Yeah. Okay. All right. So also that's funded. The Headstones are funded. Are there other things we want to tackle? Not a lot recently. Yeah. More tablets. I was going to add one potential idea is, you know, if we, if moving on from West Cemetery and looking at South Thammer Cemetery and North Thammer Cemetery. And I think at this point what's needed is just kind of like a certain condition survey. I've honestly, I haven't been to South Thammer Cemetery in many, many, many years. But from what I've heard from, you know, Alan Snow and some of the folks at DPW is that there's definitely some maintenance work needed there on the headstones. And, you know, both of those North Thammers and South Thammer Cemetery are important assets for both of those communities. So that might be something to look into. Yeah. It's a good idea because if we just keep going then, if we just ask every year, you know, and they, and it's fresh in their mind, but each year we're asking for money to keep the cemeteries maintained. I mean, and we can go ahead and get the report and also the one from West Cemetery that they're going to do and then just ask for an appropriate amount next year in the fall. I mean, we could break it into three years again or something, right? Right. Okay. I'm sort of, I don't know how you all feel, but I'm sort of thinking because we have these two projects that are funded and not done. And we've got the prospect of applying for CPA funds for North and South Cemetery surveys that if we ask, if we propose another project, we risk having too much, you know, more than we can actually manage in a year. I agree. Sounds like plenty. Okay. So, okay. Do we, so are we agreed that we'll, that the historical commission apply only for survey of North and South Cemetery conditions? And then I'll write it up, right? Right. That makes sense. That makes sense to me. One step at a time. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll, this is, that was just based off of a conversation I had with Nate and Dave a few weeks ago, but I'll circle back to them just to make sure, you know, maybe, maybe there's been a survey done in the past. I don't know. I just want to look into it a little bit more before recommending it for certain, but it seems like a kind of the next step in our quest to restore Amherst cemeteries. We've been talking about it for years. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We're here to have a question for Ben related to what town, other town proposals might be coming up for historic preservation funds. And I was hoping maybe we could put a note in next month's meeting to discuss more thoroughly what maintenance means when we're considering these grants, because last year we got, we didn't, I don't think I think we were worth, yeah, we got hit with a ton of money and the town was not, I tried to make the argument that maintenance, that historic preservation maintenance, that maybe awards should be limited for the, to the amount that the maintenance is made exceptionally expensive by the fact that it's historic preservation, but there's not met with a lot of support for that argument. But I do have the DOR guidance and I have all the definitions and everything so we could have a conversation around that and maybe try to get more of a formalized understanding, because it was a lot of money last year and it's a bit of a bother to make that argument. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It'd be good if we, if we had more of a sense of what was coming and be able to be prepared instead of just having one on us. Yeah. Exactly. That makes sense. I'm not aware of any town projects at this point. Was the, was the slate, Ruth, the one that didn't get funded in North Amherst? That's what I'm thinking of. That was a big one. South Amherst and the Town Hall, right? There were three. Yeah, but Town Hall, right, and Town Hall and, and South Amherst forward, but North Amherst didn't. Oh, okay. So it might be coming back to us and that would be. All right. Project notification form for demolition of North Village and Lincoln apartments at UMass. So yeah, yeah. This is a case in which this is state property and so we don't have jurisdiction. Only advisory to mess historic. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, it was a lengthy document, well over a hundred pages. I'm not sure folks had time to look at it, but it was for the demolition of North Village apartments and Lincoln apartments. Both of them, I think kind of mid-century apartment buildings being torn down, I believe, for North Village will be similarly kind of like graduate student family housing. I'm not sure what Lincoln apartments will be turning into that area, but, but these project notification forms. Historical commission has an opportunity just to voice any concerns about these demolitions, but to, to the Massachusetts Historical Commission, if it seems fine, then I do know that Lincoln apartments does about the Tanbrook at one end of the site. I think I, you know, I don't know what the building materials are in those buildings. I know they've been, they've had some problems with, with some of the spaces and whether we have any, whether we can ask for more information about how long the demolition is and what kind of mitigation they would be using to protect the neighborhoods around there, not just UMass, but the Lincoln Avenue area. I actually, I actually live in, in that neighborhood. Eddie, are you talking about water pollution or what? I'm not sure. I mean, the Tanbrook is being discussed by the Conservation Commission currently. I think tomorrow night. So I know that there's some discussions going on. Go where angels fit a tread. You know, about, about, you know, that as a natural resource in the, in the town and I'm, I would just be interested to know what, what provisions would be made for, for how that demolition works in relation to that body of water because it feeds into the campus pond. I would suggest that you attend the Conservation Commission hearing about it. That's not a historical commission. Right, right. Okay. Just, and, and I like those buildings, those Lincoln apartment buildings. I mean, I, I, I wish, I wish we could repurpose them. I wish we didn't have to demolish them. I mean, the, you know, they put up, they put up students who had got COVID there, even though they'd also, also started to have people leave the Lincoln apartment. So it's just a little confusing to me. You know, but I'm, I'm also concerned about what replaces them and how tall it's really not our purview though. I know, you know, and Jane, I'm sorry, but it's almost three hours and I've been up since three o'clock this morning, working really hard all day. I'm fading so fast. I don't know how much more this I can do. Let's, can we finish this agenda item and then I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. We have to do public comment. I don't think there's anyone here. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I was at, I was at South Emma Cemetery this morning, Jen. I'm, I'm, I'm in agreement. All right. So is there, I'm hearing no concern about North Village. Any, any concerns? If there is concern about Lincoln apartments, we can see what the majority of the commission feels about that. And if a majority of the commission wants to register an opinion, then we can speak briefly about that. Is there concern about Lincoln apartments? Eddie, I'm, I'm hearing yes. Yeah, just about debris. I think you, you know, potential for the pollution of the Tanbrook. That's okay. That's not, that's not, that's not how it begins. Well, you know, I think they're really good buildings. I think they're, I think they represent a, you know, a particular phase of UMass' campus development architecturally. And I can't remember if they're mentioned specifically in Max Page's book, but I, I should have prepared better for this item, but I'm also conscious of how late it is. Do we have the time to, have you read the PNF? No, I need to go. Okay. There's an opinion in the PNF that I think is something we should call attention to just so you're aware of it. Thank you. Let me see if I can find it quickly. Do we have time enough to table it and discuss it at the next meeting? If we can get it off our plate right now, I just would really like to do that. So I'll read it, I'll read to you the opinion from John Bono, I'm Hornyafi Prescott, architecture and engineering. And I assume that means architecture and engineering at UMass, but I don't know that for sure. Saying for each of the Lincoln Apartments building, buildings that it's, it is recommended not eligible for the National Register of Historic Places. The apartment complex is not recommended individually eligible as it does not possess individual significance. The buildings are not outstanding examples of architectural style or engineering methods. Although a large number of buildings on the campus are recommended eligible as part of a potential historic district, this peripherally located residential structure is not considered central to defining or maintaining the character of the institution. Thank you, Jane. You know, I think a nice rendering of those buildings when they were new gives them a certain distinction. I think that may have faded. Thank you. I'm not going to pursue this. Any other comments on Lincoln? No, I just looked at images online and there are quite a few other similar project buildings around. I think I don't think we're losing the only example. Ben, do we need to put something in writing for the mass historical commission? Yeah, I can just write them an email. Okay. All right. Are we lively enough to adjourn? I just want to make sure we set the next meeting date. We do have a potentially one demo application, so at least three weeks out would be good. Just to have time to post that and everything. Three weeks from the application you've already received or it's coming in? Just from today. That would mean a next meeting and are we going to stick to Wednesdays in general? Wednesdays in general are good for me, except I'm looking three weeks out would be the 15th and I have a conflict. It's also Yonka for you. I'm sorry I didn't hear it, Robin. Oh, it's the eve of Yonka 4. I could do the 14th or the 16th. Does that work, Ben, for the timing? Yep. The 15th is not good for me. I just started teaching at Boston College and I don't know that I'll always get back to Amherst by this time. If I am there late, I'll have to stay past the traffic. So Tuesday, Thursdays, Tuesday, Thursdays. And I know that one of our new members can't attend on Tuesdays, so shall we try Wednesday the 22nd? Sounds good. That I could probably be home in time. I'm going to be away, but I could probably be home in time for an evening meeting on the 22nd. Okay. Does that work, Ben, for the timing of the hearing? It sure does. Yeah, it gives me even more time. Okay. All right. And we're on for 6.30. Is that... All right. Ready for the motion? I move. We adjourn. I second. And I all in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you all. Everybody. Good night, everybody. Good night, everyone. Okay. Take care. Bye. Bye.