 Joe Tecun, welcome to WPC-TV. You are obviously from Cameroon, but you live, I know, now in Addis Ababa. That's correct. Where you are advising the UNDP on anti-corruption. That's correct. In terms of governance, it seems to me that corruption is a huge problem, probably everywhere in the world, but especially in emerging markets and in developing countries. Surely there's no easy cure. How do you fight corruption? Well, John, thank you very much. That's a very important question. Corruption, as we say, has emerged as one of the biggest governance challenges facing Africa right now. But I think it goes beyond that. It's actually one of the biggest development challenges facing the continent. Two years ago, President Becky was asked by the African Union to do some findings on illicit financial flow. And the report his team came up with said $50 billion leaves the continent yearly through capital flight, price misinvoicing and all that stuff. And when you quit the $50 billion with the amount of money that Africa receives through ODA, you realize that the money that is leaving the continent is even bigger than what we receive as development assistance. And if you then break it down and you ask yourself how much is needed so that every child in a country like Nigeria should get education for free, it's 30 million or 30 million annually. So you realize that if we can just block the leakages that perpetuates corruption, Africa would have been able to achieve almost all of the millennium development goals. So we're saying for us to then move forward with the sustainable development agenda, perhaps corruption should be one of those things African countries take extremely seriously. But surely, I mean, defining corruption, if you're sweet, for example, you have a very strict view of corruption. But other societies might regard it as patronage, a patronage which is almost a responsibility and a duty. That's true. That's true. I mean, there are different ways of looking at it. You can look at it from a financial point of view or you can look at it from power and citizen relationship. I think that which is very prevalent in Africa right now is both. If you look at corruption at the minor or small level, what we call pitted corruption, it has a lot to do with patronage. It has a lot to do with the power dynamics between citizens and their authorities. But if you look at it from a financial point of view, then you look at the role of mod-lateral companies. Then you look at the role of government officials who are swindling money that is supposed to be directed towards service delivery. So both aspects are prevalent on the continent. I think for us, the challenge for every country, Africa is a big continent with 54 countries. But I think for every country in Africa, the challenge is to find the aspect of corruption that is much more prevalent and damaging. And then ask yourself, what are some of the tools and mechanisms that you would want to put in place? It is a very challenging task, I must say. Without political will, I mean, it doesn't matter what you have to put in place. Well, I wish you the very best of luck in this because it's a very important endeavor. I hope you've enjoyed the WPC conference. And is your first time at the WPC conference? This is my very first time. How did you find it? Mixed feelings, to be very honest with you. A very good platform because you get to meet policymakers. Actually, one of the fantastic things with such occasions is that you get to meet people who've been there, who've actually been on the euro side of making policy and implementing them or overseeing the implementation. But I guess the challenge you have, and I mean personally, I'm extremely grateful that myself and a bunch of others were brought here, or our presence was facilitated by the OCP policy center in Morocco. But one of the challenges you find here is the level of diversity, I must say. Both in the participation, but also in the dialogue. There are certain moments when you feel like the way others see the globe is from a Euro-American lens and the discussion a little bit tends to... You think Africa has been neglected in... Not just Africa, Latin America has been neglected. Africa has been absolutely neglected. I'm not saying focus should be entirely on Africa, but I'm saying it's one point something billion people. It's one of the most and the fastest growing market. If you're going to have a discussion about issues of global governance, then you're going to make an effort or you should make an effort to have more than a 45-minute slot to discuss the challenges of security and development challenges in Africa. Because most of the things happening in Africa has a replicating effect across the Atlantic, has an effect with what's happening with migration in Europe and all that stuff. So we can have a nice conversation about the financial bubble in the UK, the Brexit, Iran, which are all very genuine governance challenges. But if you don't then turn around and look at the emerging markets in Latin America that are going to be a major player in the world in the next 10 years, or you look at Africa that is most likely going to determine some trends in governance. I think we're missing the link. I'm hoping. No, I think that's very important actually. It's a good idea for the next conference. Absolutely. I hopefully would. But that's why this is important, right? That we can also look at some of these gaps and try and fix them as we go forward. Thank you so much. Thank you. Pleasure being here.