 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very honored to be joined by Andy Zilgen. Andy, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks Bart It's great to hear from you. You're uh, you're drumming royalty. I suppose I guess yet in a tertiary way I guess you're right. I don't I don't play that well. Oh, that's funny. Well, you you come from a long line of Symbol makers. I mean obviously from your last name people should be able to put together that you are a member of the very famous Zilgen family, but That's just the it is the most interesting story about how it everything went and it became Sabian, which is just You don't get many families that have two of the most famous symbol companies in the world So that's just why well, no, you only have one family that has that I'll play sir. Yeah So why don't we just jump right in here and why don't you just take us through the beginnings of Sabian because like I Mentioned before we started recording. I don't don't take for granted that everyone understands The the Zilgen Sabian connection obviously you being Andy Zilgen. You're a member of the Zilgen family So just go go as deep and far back as you can and I'm excited to hear it Sure. Well, I won't go as far back as as 1623 because I think most people already know that that history but I'll go back as far as my father being not having come back from the Second World War and He was an infantryman there and and he was always out in the woods and his friends said to him after he came back Bob, why don't we go get you out of the city for a while? We'll go hunting and fishing and we know a place and they came all the way up here to New Brunswick Which is you know one of the questions I used to ask the old man a lot was you know There were no trout in New Hampshire because we lived in in Boston and it's like you couldn't have gone two hours you had to go 12 and So anyway, he came up here He really liked it and that kept coming back coming back hunting fishing meeting all the people really liked the ingenuity the creativity of Who these people were their farmers? Good hard-working people really nice people and then come 1968. There was a Tariff between the United States and Europe so it was difficult and expensive to ship from anywhere that was not a commonwealth or an ex-commonwealth country and the ones that were local were Bermuda, Bahamas and Canada if you're going to build a factory the first two would be wonderful places to live but as factory goes that'd be really tough and Since he was friends with people up here and liked it and and knew of their ingenuity their their integrity Etc. He said that that's what we're going to do. So he He and his dad made an agreement that they were going to build a factory up here And at that point they were going to be making second-line symbols And they were going to be finishing some symbols that were made down in the Boston area with the zilge name on it and ship over to Europe just before the All the materials for the factory arrived my grandfather said what are we doing this for we don't need to do this I don't want to do it anymore and my dad had already put the money out for it and and had everything all set up knew He was gonna hire and all that type of stuff So the only time the only time in his life He had his father actually sign a contract He had him sign a contract saying that for what it cost to build the factory He could buy the factory with everything in it from the company if he ever needed to and Right, I know and it's crazy because it hit it both these guys would have arguments like crazy There was one secretary who the first issue is there I thought oh my god I'm never gonna I'm not gonna have a job there They're gonna kill each other because it in the in the ancient Armenian way or let's just say Mediterranean So yeah, they'd come in in the morning and they'd be screaming at each other. No, you stupid You cannot do this I'm going then and just say alright to hell with it and just leave the office walk over there I'll slam the door and they'd be in there and then a couple hours later the grandpa Avidus would walk over and say puppy. Where are we going for lunch? So, I mean it was never really an argument, but it was right. Yeah, they never they didn't hate each other It's just the way they work and Right, but so anyway, the old man did have the have him sign a contract saying that he could buy it for what it cost to make and came in in handy my that was back in 1968 and As as the folks up here started to learn how to make symbols they were taught by the folks down in Quincy at that point and They started making the asco the Zilco symbols, which were a second line nice symbol It just didn't have quite the same Finish to to the sound and to the and to the look et cetera as you would from from what that point was You know just the a's the a zilchins. Yeah, cuz that's all they made back there at that point So the guys in Canada were we're learning how to make good symbols As they as they were going along they were they were learning how to make more and more improvements to what they were doing so they're getting better and better at it and then in 1972 there was a new factory for a zilchin company in Norwell at the same time the demand for for symbols was going up to the point where Zilchin company was making the stuff that was just selling out the door fast fast fast fast medium high hats I forgot what they call them new beats or something like that Yeah Medium rides and that type of stuff They were just making all the easy stuff that was selling fast and get it out Whereas up here they were making Chinese swish pangs. They were making extra thins They're making extra heavies They're making all types of different things and they were learning different techniques for how to make symbols that were Not the easiest things to make Then 1976 my dad goes over to Istanbul argues just like you did it used to do with this his father with the guy who was Mikhail who is the owner of the or we thought the owner of the factory the zilchin factory K Zilchin yeah over in Istanbul argue with him for a while after Like a month of this he ended up saying okay good. We've got an agreement. We'll buy the company Found out that the that Mikhail didn't actually own it It was the guy who they were buying their copper from who on the factory. Oh, you do the whole thing over again Wow but at that point Kira pay who was Mikhail's brother Had two sons and one of them was in the company and the other one was had been in the company was stuck in the army at that point and The younger one was Michael and Michael came over to United States and started working at the factory in Norwell and he was there for a couple of months and The I can't remember if it was immigration or if it was the IRS one of them came in because You know, they found out that there was a guy from our Istanbul who was working at this factory no green card. No no Immigration nothing and said to my grandfather. Is there a Michael zilchin here and he said yes It was very nice boy works a very hard good boy He will never to be on the dole and they said yeah, but does he have a green card? No, no, no Don't worry. He pays taxes very good boy. And they said young yeah Well, this is those he's got 24 hours to get out of the country. Oh boy. Wow right, so he'd been there for only about three months and He's quite a character to made a name for himself with everybody down there and up here So the folks up here said hey wait a minute. We can get him up here legally. It's not a problem we just have to go through the correct channels and So he packed up drove up here and started teaching everybody up here how to make hand-hammered symbols So ever since then we've had that technique to make hand-hammered symbols and our competitor has not Right and then his dad came over Keter pay he came over who is that the K you came over to To Canada and he was working with us for a long time here teaching us how to hand hammer and do it correctly And and then his other son his older son Gabriel came over and and he actually just retired this last January So yeah, and since 76 so Anyway, things were working out well through 76. We were making all the case is what people call the Canadian case Sure and very famous. Oh, yeah, and and people like Neil Peart were playing the Canadian a's at that point And didn't really even know it and but they could tell the difference. It's not that they knew why it's just that they knew that something was different about it and Anyway, when when my grandfather passed away in 79 the My dad and my uncle were good friends But at the same time they had differences of opinion on on the house and why is it of doing things at a company? And my grandfather was the referee and that's avid is the third correct your grandfather is avid is the third, right? That's that's that's the way we wrote that history. Yes, it is So avid is the third and then your uncle is Armand and your father is Robert just to clarify. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah That's right. And and yeah, and my dad was two years younger than my uncle. They're good buddies They used to hang out They've got great stories from from when they'd travel together when they were kids and all that type of stuff But you know as you get older and you get ideas and and you want to things see things go your way You need to have the referee and when my grandfather wasn't there anymore things sort of speed wobbled and fell apart and so It was a better idea for us to not be working together instead of working together and just creating much more anger So we did we left we left and we started saving at that point and The cool thing was again there we are with all the guys who could make all the difficult to make symbols They could make all the hand hammered symbols and we even knew how to make a second line if we needed to and Then at the same time we had to learn how to do the easier stuff. Well, that's easy So we had an advantage a really good advantage there We we opened the company in 1981 in December We weren't allowed to sell in the United States in 1982. We had to wait until 83 but that was a boom because We could make all of our mistakes overseas which was that was my dad's regular territory was overseas in international sales Yeah, so he had a lot of friends and they they gave him some leeway and stuff And you know like for example, we ended up getting some copper for the the melting room which wasn't really that good and The symbols came out what we call mealy in other words They were a little bit soft so they didn't sound good and when when we found out about this Some of the stuff had already been shipped down in New York We took the truck down in New York picked up all of those symbols brought him back and and and brought new ones down in New York to Cover that because we were there's no way we're gonna let anything that was not the best we could make Go out into the market and that type of attitude stays around today. It's just part of our DNA Yeah, one thing I just want to say real quick is that I have heard You know from I don't think there's any obviously there's some some stuff between the companies but I've talked to people from Zildjian one thing that I know Up and down is that people really respected and loved your dad I mean Robert Zildjian is just known as a great guy But I've you've said it a few times. He's known as An incredibly smart International businessman. I think that's just something that has made been made very clear in some research. I've done so And clearly he used that. I didn't really know I knew that the whole 1981 couldn't sell until 83 thing, but I didn't really know about the Go over internationally Use kind of test the waters and work out the kinks until 83 That's just him using his his, you know, international smarts Right there. So that's really cool to learn. Oh, yeah, he he was smart But his his one of his phrases was you know intelligence without perseverance is nothing And so he was definitely the well, it's just a dream really and he was definitely someone who's saying if I'm gonna set my mind Do I'm gonna do it? Yeah, and um, yeah, and uh kept going and kept going that made a big difference that and of course, I mean he just He was friends with a lot of people. So if you do make a mistake say like I'm billing or something like that They won't just get pissed off. They'll call you up and say hey bud. Just look at this. No problem. I'll fix it Sorry about that. Yeah mistake. That's that's the kind of thing that we you know, we stumbled on the first year But of course it all up. Yeah, sure And before we move on can you explain just so everyone knows I think it's pretty obvious what it is. But but like kind of define a second line symbol a little bit What is a second line symbol? Okay, um Well, let's see for example nowadays a second line symbol is be would be what I call access what we call xsr And that's um, it's not made to the highest standards that our Our regular top line symbols would be like ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah and artists Those are all top line. There's no quite. They're professional, but xsr would be just a little bit Less craftsmanship that goes into it. Maybe um something that that is not done to the symbol that can keep the the price down to a lower level So it's it's it sounds good if it doesn't sound as good Um, and it costs less understood. That's perfect. Okay, just to kind of get everyone on the same page now Um, okay, so then the 83 the companies you're up and running everything's going great. I mean I feel like I like looking at old catalogs and stuff. It seems like you guys just really hit the ground running Well, yeah Mostly because you know, my dad had been doing this same type of thing internationally So to do it from a central and well Not just internationally had been doing it. Um in the states as well He did a lot of close work with our marketing Agency in the states for not only us but also international. He did a lot of the accounting at the company as well And um, you know for for him to have left and started his own was really just an extension of what he had been doing For him, it was all pretty easy Yeah, you guys you guys had obviously a ton of really great Endorsers right off the bat like phil Collins. I mean, there's tons of just people jack dashing net um where they Now was that typically something? Do you know how that went where like let's say I mean before you guys there weren't many other options of symbols to play Was that something where like what was the driving obviously quality that you guys have very quality symbols But would it be like hey? You know player x you've used zuljin for a long time Um, what would be the driving factor for them to switch to sabian then was it a relationship with bob or was it like A desire to try something different For a few people there were things like that. Um, you know relationship with my dad, which made a difference. Um, you know people like, um, well carmine Yeah, love my dad and um, and uh jack eventually but um of Harvey mason was definitely one that came over because he was very good friends with my dad and um uh The way it really happened was At that point there was there was zuljin and pisty that was it for first symbols to be used and um when we started We had an alternative. Well, you know, we weren't zuljin. We weren't pisty So if if for example, you didn't like the pisty sound, which is that's not a hard thing It's it's its own specific sound and you may not like it But you also don't like what you're getting from you could get from z company and Um, not to disparage them too much but at that point as a monopoly They didn't really have to try too hard And so um, sometimes you didn't get what you were looking for at all And so, you know, the folks were saying this is not the sound i'm looking for and then they heard the hand hammer When when people heard that the hand hammered symbols And knew what they were and the sound the tone the depth the darkness the richness that comes in that type of symbol It was a real easy switch for most of them And for the most part we started off with the jazz guys and the education of teachers coming over and Playing the hh and then as some of their Students were listening to these symbols they'd come over but they'd play a a because they may have been a student of one of these guys But they played um hairband metal. Yeah, so they they and they couldn't play an hh It would just be way too dark and that they were playing at that point a a And uh, so that's how we started to go that way and and phil Was one of those guys um, who just couldn't find what he was looking for at z Had been playing piste for a while, but was not really excited about the Um The lack of character that's in the symbol like that. It's got a great piercing cut. There's no question about that Definitely beautifully, but as far as it goes with having body and personality They're really missing a lot and so he he wanted that and uh when phil came over Actually, he came over because chester had come over. Yeah Chester was playing it in his band and phil said good god. What's that? That's funny man. I mean they are beautiful symbols. I've used um A number of them on different so I do some session drumming stuff working as an audio engineer I kind of get I don't get paid as much as a normal session drummer because I'm there and I just get to do it But um, but like the regular hats. I think are what they're they're called. They're just amazing You know, there was there was a um in atlanta. I can't remember which studio was dang it But it was it was uh, it was a studio down there that said if you don't have a 16 inch a a x studio crash Which is what they were called back then. Yeah, if you don't have a 16 inch a x studio crash go get one now before we start Yeah, that's what they say that every person who came in. No, that's very true. That's literally exactly we have So at gwin sound where I work we have that exact symbol and it's um, I think someone bought Someone it was well before my time But someone I think in the early the late 90s. I believe went and did a big purchase and bought like they bought Those symbols those sabian symbols that I mentioned and then like a dynasonic a supraphonic a pearl wood fiberglass kit And um, and it was just like a like and then I looked at it, you know, 20 years later and I was like, well, this is just a Great set of studio equipment, especially with the the sabian gear he got. So um, yeah, it's really good for the studio Wow, cool. Yeah Cool stuff. So um, all right, well, let's keep going on the the timeline here because your your father was still very heavily involved You're obviously I should have mentioned this before you were the president of the company And another neat thing to mention Is what sabian stands for so it's your sister sally your name andy and then your brother billy, right? No No, no, no, that's that's a a normal misconception and everybody thinks that we just put the ian on the end, right? Yeah, um, but no, it's it's s a for sally. Okay, b i for billy a n for andy Okay, oh, I see that order. So I the order wrong, okay, right? No, not well But you get to remember there was also each each one of us got two letters Yeah, in the name, right. Yeah Interesting. It was one of those things my mom came up with it every once in a while She came up with something you go, whoa, how did you do that? Yeah Can't underestimate moms, right? Well, she's just usually driving along or with with the old man driving. They used to come they They drive up to the factory, uh, which is about six hours from where they lived at that point And I live very near where they did so I get a long drive too But that they'd be driving home having a cup of coffee in the car and chatting about well What are we going to do about this? What should we do about that? What should do about this and then the old man said, you know, we got to name this thing and it was like You know three minutes later mom said, oh, I know Sadia Sally billy and he just said congratulations. Willie you've done it again click Man, that's wild Changed kind of I mean changed drumming history with that. That's awesome Well, the other choices were symbols by bob Which no is by bob, right and canadian symbol company. No again. No, wow How things could have been with I know but symbols by bob that doesn't really have the right Ring to it. Yeah, not a lot of ring. No. No, that's awesome All right, so carrying on here into the 80s then just kind of with the history of the company You guys are still in the same Factory then this was the you took over the zilco factory. I mean this this It's serendipitously Like when bob in 68 got the contract signed that all just came to fruition I mean that that really worked out in his favor. So he That contract is the reason that he got all that Hugely without that we would have been sunk that we had had nothing. Um, soldier would have owned it. Um They would have been able to say not let's it just close it down and that would have been it for us Yeah Yep, but yeah, he was it was that that I don't know how he he decided it was a good thing to do But thank god he did have they all have grandpa signed that so we had the factory up here But at that point when we first started we didn't have a melting room because we were we were getting all the castings up from from norwell and then Carrying on the ovens etc from that point and moving on My dad my brother They both knew what the secret was to the to the family process And so it was actually pretty simple for us just to put together a melting room So we did at that point put together our own melting room. And so from that point on we were completely independent That was we we knew we were going to be leaving them in the summer of 81 And between the summer of 81 and the end of december put together the whole melting room So that when january 1st hit we were ready man. We're yeah, I don't want castings. You don't need to like Reveal your age or whatever, but how old were you at this point? Like were you working there? I was still a kid Okay, I was a kid. I was 16 Do you know? I mean, I would just love to get like obviously there was there was tension between armand and and uh and bob Where it led to this of like we both have the secret but like god I would just love to know his thought process leading up to that day of going into Work and saying I'm done. I'm not doing this. That must have been you said if they were already kind of button heads of a lot That must have been an explosive day when he brought that up uh Yeah, yeah I'm I was not privy to the actual conversation But I do know that at that point as was typical the old man came back. God stupid Right and uh Which was you know, oh, he must have had a a little hard day at work because that's typically the way that things would go Like I said, they used to argue with each other then say, what are we going for lunch? You know, so uh Yeah, it was hard to actually for me to define which day that was Maybe there just wasn't lunch that day That's right. Where are we going for lunch? You figure out your own lunch. Yeah The relationship had to be very Damaged between the two brothers then Right. Yeah, I mean that that just had to kind of Drive them apart Well for for my dad the the real Cut was It wasn't just it wasn't just arming that that he was arguing with it was also his niece and and he was having real issues with her and I'm not Pretty exactly what those issues were but they were not getting along at all and um and and uh, there were members of the board that were Siding with uh with one side of the family and not the other and what got my dad so angry I know with his brother was that arming was allowing that to happen and that's what made him so upset with arming but As time went on eventually When they were both sort of in their in their 80s um They started calling each other and and it was it was the typical um, you know Boston Armenian However, you want to put it metatranian thing you get a phone call from from your brother. Hello Ah, you're not dead yet. There you go, right? Nice to say hello, but that's the way they used to talk with each other. Yeah No, I get it completely of like so so they did as they both got older they Did sort of obviously it wasn't the most, you know, they're not saying I love you and stuff But they did talk a little bit towards the end, right? I actually I think they did at the end of each each phone call say well lucky bastard I love you and that would be about it. But then at that point Um, arming wasn't very well. So they he wasn't traveling and um, and they weren't getting together that often Or I'm sorry. They were not getting together at all, but they were making phone calls and connecting that way Got it. Okay. And and your father Bob passed away in 2013, correct? Yes, yeah, okay. Got it. All right. What a what a long legendary life to to lead full of excitement and Well, in his opinion, it wasn't long enough, right? Sure. Of course. Yeah Yeah All right. So then in the 80s kind of getting back with the history then, um Keep it keep it going there. What what else happened? Well, let's see in the 80s what we started we started Like for example the campaign of saving and switchers, which you're talking about people switching over the to the cymbal sound and um And so we were growing that way and at that point, of course people were getting into that the heavy metal hair bands and um, uh 15 cymbals on a drum set. So boy did that help because at that point Well, seriously, oh, yeah, totally playing four cymbals on a drum set We're even a smaller cymbal company right now But that did help that helped a lot because people were getting a lot of cymbals and and and our sound um As we are we're creating new new cymbal sounds um Was fitting what people were looking for one of the things I like most about what we do is because we we don't have The encumbrance of any type of of history or we do have history, but we're not encumbered by it We will look at it and say this is the proper method to make a cymbal But it can be anything anybody wants it to be So we have fearless innovation if you say you want something that sounds like a dinner gong and and you want it to be shaped like a Whatever we'll do everything we can to make that work for you. The voice of the artist is exactly what we want to Accommodate so we're not afraid to come up with stuff And we weren't then too and we were coming up with all different sounds that we're coming around We had sound control back then which for me was it still is one of my favorite cymbals It's just so good It was a regular cymbal a little bit flatter but with a little tip at the edge going up So what happens is as the sound the energy you hit you strike a cymbal The the energy goes around the cymbal and it goes into the cup and back out again and As as you as the energy goes back in and out It's re-vibrated by what's going around so it's it's that's why you hear or you see if you did it on a on a scope You could see the sound Spike up and then come down ridge come down ridge come down ridge come down With the sound control because it had that that a little bit of of lip at the edge The sound going around the cymbal was was pretty uniform And the sound coming through the cymbal from the belt to the edge back and forth Was pretty uniform as well because it had a wall to bounce off of And so what you got was a quick spike and then a nice decay that was Not fast but but a good quick decay and you could have a flatter cymbal doing that So oh my god, you get these deep rich tones and you hit that thing and just it explodes And the biggest problem we had with those was that heavy metal guys loved them Because they go into a store or whatever and they hit them with with a 7a that was over there that they could try out the the cymbals with and they'd say god that's great And they'd go home and they'd use their uh five b's and they'd go from behind their head to hit these things Which is not what they did at the store and they just rip right through them Absolutely right through them. Yeah. Oh god. It made me cry because even the hh the hh Sound control 22 inch ride is still absolutely my favorite ride of all and I've got one that I keep So that if I'm up here working and I'm doing things like accounting or whatever And it's it's starting to pull out whatever hairs left in my head and I think I just can't I I can't do all of this Right now. It's just driving me nuts. I'll go down. I'll hit that cymbal and all of a sudden Everything's right with it just makes everything right. That's awesome. Oh god. It's just everything aligns now. Okay I'm cool. I'll go back up and I'll go do the accounting stuff again Everyone needs a nice ride in their office just to hit Well, I actually I leave it down in the vault So I have an excuse to walk all the way out to say hi to the guys on the way to in front Yeah, good. Get out of the office Yep That's awesome. So tons of cymbals. Um, obviously if they like that cymbal It's not great that they were breaking them a bunch, but they would buy more, you know, that wasn't your intention Obviously, but we had a warranty on them. So that was killing us too. Yeah, right Well innovation though. So you guys were very innovative. Yeah, we were working on On on trying to make all different types of sounds. I mean even for example back then we came up with with ba, which was um You know, it's very much similar to what piste was making on their hiring stuff But we were selling it as as low end because for us you just put it on on the machine that makes it near You're done Yeah, and um, you know a few more little techniques as we've gone along We've innovated on to make a little bit better But at the same time it's still not that big a deal And you know, there's ba and then we did a little improvement of that ba pro and But also during that time Guys were asking us all types of musicians were saying they wanted something a little bit different a little bit faster Um a little bit cleaner More focused sound and that's when we came up with the aax And and that one was was that was a game changer because we came up with that and then um As as happens a lot a few other companies started copying the same thing And um, and so we came up with aax had that sound coming out And we thought you know what because we're doing this extra hammering to make the aax sound the way it does Well, we try that with the hh and we did and that was hhx And yeah, and that sound just took off as well And was flying and then we get up to about 1990 shoot five maybe and that's when um, Like dave weckel decided that he was going to come over because he was hearing stuff that he had owned before But he couldn't find anymore And then he was and because he'd been getting canadian symbols and he didn't know it He didn't know it and the same thing happened with no pier like 10 years after that Like why can't I not find a replacement for the ride that I love and a friend of a mutual friend said well How old is that ride? He said well, I I got it back in 1976 Well, I think I know why and he pulled out his his saving I guess probably like a medium ride at that point and when neil hit it. He said that's exactly that's exactly it Where is this? How do I get that and he introduced us? So that's how things came came together there Wow, gosh very canadian too at being neil pier and And and just a great canadian drummer. It's all it's all in the in the canadian family there Yeah, and he didn't know he had just had no idea so funny and why would he? Yeah, absolutely. No, and I don't think uh, I don't think people would realize that just plain and old, you know An old symbol they may have and realizing that it's actually the same dna as um one of the newer Sabians, which is which is just fascinating to me. Um Yeah, so aax and hhx, I mean, they're just like they're synonymous you you guys obviously it's that Very bright that 90s. I mean, they're still great today, obviously, but very bright I mean it kind of shaped the sound of that that era of drumming with having brighter symbols both the way they look and sound just makes it just you know, you you see a 90s kind of drum set and Um in a good way, obviously very bright and clean chad smith big endorser of yours I always think of I mean he's I always say this on the show, but the endorser is what is how people know about your company and when people think of chad smith They think of sabian, so I think of funny when I think of chad smith. I think of funky awesome drumming and funny guy. Yes For sure. Yeah Staying innovative and and I mean gotta talk about a long time endorser right there. Many of them are longtime endorsers You know, it was cool about him is that that When we picked him well, we didn't pick him up. What happened was he was part of the thing called the pepsi pepsi Band shoot. I forgot the exact name of it But pepsi had a bunch of bands that they were supporting and our guy who was during artist relations at that point up in canada He said, yeah, we'll be a part of that and chad was in a band called toby red And and toby red got picked up by the pepsi thing and he came by he saw us at the summer trade show Which at that point was in chicago and and he had this a bunch of of those floppy Albums remember those old floppy ones that we get like in a magazine Yeah, yeah, I know you're talking about and it was all red and he came out and he said hey I want to give these to you guys and we were like, hey, this guy's kind of happening. What's up? And kind of funny having a good time and energetic, etc. And he said yeah, yeah, it's it's in my band toby red That's why the album's red All right, that's corny. Yeah, we found it out afterwards that chad's not corny. No, no, he's a he's a monster. Yeah That's awesome Cool. So how was the relationship? So so now is we're into the 90s and stuff. Obviously, um, you know zilgin was still going on saving was going on How was the relationship then I mean because you guys I don't know if they underestimated you but you were approving yourselves to be You know a very serious competitor So as you get through the 90s, was it was it pretty much, you know, you stay over there We'll stay over here and we'll we'll just keep doing our thing um well personally, um, you know Interpersonal between my my dad and uh, and my uncle like I say and they're starting to talk to each other again But um, but uh, my dad and uh and his niece now No talking and as far as the companies were concerned, we were really just looking at them as competition And um, you know, I I was in that position that when this whole thing happened back in in um in 81 I was 16 years younger than than my cousins and so I I really didn't know them and I I didn't have any and I still don't have any animosity. I sort of know them But really I know them just as competition. So that that just sort of ended up being as it was But uh, as far as the companies were concerned Yeah, we were definitely competing and we were competing hard because we we knew that we could make Better and more innovative The biggest problem we had was 400 years of history that that it's hard to overcome And uh, you know, we're still in that position, but um, sure But we were doing everything that we could to um to overcome that obstacle and and really what that comes down to was Was again innovation listening to artists trying to be um a better partner for Stores musicians distributors internationally all types of things like that and um and that and that was paying off We were growing growing growing to the point where um I had the um The guy who was in charge of the second place company at that point looked at me and said he said I know that you guys split the company to take me out and I said not really if you actually met The people that were involved. I don't think you'd say that he'd say yes. I think you're in collusion If collusion looks like this I don't want any part of it Boy, that's like some conspiracy theory stuff right there. That's um, oh well Yeah, there's there's there's lots of and I always and hopefully people know this about the show Is I try and be as unbiased as possible because you know, I try and get include everyone and and all that stuff But um, there's tons of great companies. I mean with competition Leads to innovation which leads to yeah, and that's that's one of the things I like to talk about when people say like Like well, what did you guys bring? What did we bring when we started the company? um in in 1981 There were probably 300 different types of symbols Which would include not only their sounds their sizes their weights But also the finishes that you could get and so really there weren't the choices were pretty small And now there's probably upwards of about 3,800 different types of symbols sounds finishes, etc. Yeah Wow, so I mean it it makes it difficult because even I at times have a hard time figuring out what sound is is Exactly the one I'm looking for but I can definitely find symbols that are right for what I'm looking for So that's that's a benefit, right? Yeah, we we had innovation and competition just brought so much more So many more voices to the artist to be able to play the sounds that they're looking for Yeah, absolutely now, um Moving on through the 90s. I know people really like to hear about um the different lines that happen as well So we have the a a x the hhx. What else do we get going on through there and and then obviously jump in with any, you know Cool historical stuff, but maybe take us through some lines that bring us up to When you became president that that and when your father in in 2013 Passed away and you can, you know, bring us up more to modern times there Oof. Okay, let's see Um I try to remember the the names of some of these lines because I can tell you the histories of them But remembering what they were called. Yeah, it's a different story, right? Yeah, absolutely. I get a terrible memory anyway 70s were tough It was uh, yeah, um There was that there was one symbol Gosh can't remember any classic. I think it was what it was called and carapay was teaching us how to make this thing And we were saying we're carapay. This one is is it's a hand hammered symbol, but it's got a larger bell It's higher pitched. It sounds really Not what we're looking for and he said this is these are the best ones Hey, what do you mean? These are the best These are the ones that we used to keep in europe when we would send all the bad ones over to you guys in America They're like wait a minute. Wait a minute The ones that you don't like are the ones that we all emulate as the old k. He's like, oh, yeah, those were terrible Wow, all right, I know That's funny Well, at that point they they were all handmade in in um in istanbul And when when they put in the cup for example that heat up the symbol and that have about three or four Maybe even five symbols in a stack and then put the form on on on the top symbol And you take a hammer and whack that that form as hard as you could And so the impression on the first two symbols would be a very good strong bell And after that it would start getting flatter and flatter and flatter as you went down They sent us the flatter ones, which we all love nowadays. Yeah, I love them the ones, right They kept the ones with the high bells You know, it's interesting I I did an episode the history of istanbul agap symbols and um just that line of like that company coming off of the zilgen like literally being being workers at zilgen And they branched off basically at the time of this Of of the of the factory being closed in istanbul But to hear in that episode he talked about um cesar in that episode talked about The process of making the symbols over there and the hammering and all that stuff So it just it just reminded me of that and I kind of forgot that like How many different things are branched off of your family? I mean, it's it's it's crazy way too many way too many That's funny. Well, um, so I have I have something open here obviously So there's there's hhx the evolution extension of hhx, which were super popular The paragon series that was always a cool and that was That was that was Neil Peiritz. Yeah. Yep. That was him saying look I I can't find the sound I'm looking for and then once he did find it saying, you know what actually I'd like to refine it a little bit and he came up and you know, he'd chat with mark mark love who's who's um um taken over from nord hargrove who was our original symbol guru to Now it's mark love and mark love is just one of those guys you tell him what you're looking for for his sound And he's already creating it in his mind. It's it's it's not only is it scary. It's really exciting to watch And I'm sure and him working together with all these people. I mean, he's he's worked with Anybody that you can think of that's come up with an innovative sound. He's been the guy who actually made that happen That's fantastic. Yeah Yeah, so he's of course, he's working with Dave all the time and uh was working with neil They were they were actually pretty good friends and um, yeah We just had to see neil very sad to see neil pass. Oh my god. Yeah, obviously that's one of the most Just beloved people in the the drum community, but um Yeah, he definitely made a big impact on people and uh, and you know, you should be Obviously you're you're honored that he was such a big sabian guy. I mean, that's that's just the truest When someone like that likes your stuff then, you know, you're doing You're doing something right Well, and and actually he he and you know, there are a few other people that are absolutely They're gonna tell you exactly what they think like jeff hamilton if he doesn't like what you're doing He's gonna straight out tell you hey, that's crap. Don't do this and uh, and neil was the same way And so is dave these guys they don't hold back because they have expectations And they know what they put into what they do and they expect the same type of commitment from everybody else around them and so, you know when when like Dave dave will come up neil actually Came up a bunch and uh, he and my dad would sit on the back deck and then and then you know I have a little cocktail at the end of the day and talk about Symbols talk about history talk about players talk about comedians talk about philosophy anything It was just an open conversation that kept going and and the intellect and the um, the honesty from all of these guys Is really great because you know like you said if you're doing it, right? They're gonna tell you If you're doing it wrong, they're gonna tell you and if they say i'm gonna i'm gonna bet my voice My career on this instrument that you're making that's I don't think you could get a better endorsement than that. Yeah Yeah, yeah, because it's them They're not gonna like fake it and be like yeah, it sounds good And then you get a hundred thousand people on the internet saying wow, what the hell are you doing with that symbol? That sounds terrible so their Honor is on the line with everything they do. So so that's that's extremely true. Um, yeah Now let's jump forward a little bit to when you took over and then I would love to hear about the recent more recent involvement with crescent Symbols because I don't know I I really don't know anything about that. So um So how was it? How was the transition for for you to become the president of the company? Well, actually, let me let me start back a little bit farther than that when we first started the company I was I was wanted to be a professional hockey player and uh, yeah crack clavicle two bad knees a busted jaw and Yeah Later, um, I decided that now I couldn't really do that. So I needed some discipline I joined the army and that was good because I learned how to Caesar always said you can't learn you can't lead unless you know how to follow And so I agree and so that that really did a lot for for my ability to understand leadership and and um camaraderie and so um When I got the chance I came up and was working at the factory and um, learned almost all of the spot all the steps That were going on at that point and then um became a road rep down in virginia west virginia, mississippi Louisiana, arkansas traveling around meeting all the stores selling uh symbols and and finding out what that was all about And then moved up to where I was doing Distribution management artist relations sales support Training and that type of thing and grew that from east coast to all of united states and then all of south and central america as well And that brings us up to about 2005 when the old man was was he had knee problems. He was having heart problems and uh And the guy who was in charge of the company at that point was a nice guy and worked worked hard But would never let anything go. He always wanted to be in control of it And so he got himself underwater that way and so I had to come in and and uh after Talking with with that about it said we got to let dany go And uh asked dany to go ahead and retire and he didn't I walked into the old man's office and I said well All right, dan's gone and he said well, that's good. I'm not doing it. Who is I thought oh god I should have thought of that. What have I done? Yeah, exactly. So it was one of those. Oh shoot. Okay, so we put together A contract and agreement on how to do it and I started taking over from there and um 2006 everything was was good. We were working together very well 2007. We were working together well and 2008 came Everything was great until around september and in september when everything fell apart the the economic Downfall happened in the states. He looked at me and he said well, I'm not participating in that I'm glad you have to deal with this. Goodbye Thanks, dad I mean, but that's the same time. He was still there. He was he was always my backstop if I had issues I just couldn't figure out it say like dad. What are you doing? And he'd Tell me and and actually one of the things about dad was was that he was never shy to give his opinion So even if I didn't ask him he'd tell me and say yeah, why are you doing this? And Yeah, so he's experienced always easy Yeah to get his opinion and that worked out really well until um, You know when he passed away in 2013 and at that point it's a it was a weird feeling because there was no more backstop Sure, that was gone. Um mom was still alive, but she didn't have the same Um understanding of of of the actual management of a company as dad did I could definitely ask her questions about a larger topic and should have a good opinion But as far as it went with detail stuff, um, that wasn't her her strength So, uh put together a good management team and things were going well But it was still there's something lacking. I couldn't quite figure it out So we had to rearrange the way that we were doing our management and the way it is is And I kind of lucked in with this one. I've got a chief operating officer Mike Connell who does really the day-to-day work and I'm more in charge of Of thinking about where we need to go how we get the company there Um, how we make sure that the symbols are are going to be Um, you know, what's the next step for symbols? How are they going to sound? Um How we pull together everything we need to to make sure we've got all the the right components to make Better symbols. Um And then of course, you know keeping up relationships with other people Outside of of of sabian people and in the rest of the industry because none of this isn't a vacuum I mean for example, but when my grandfather came up with the idea for a hi-hat All he came up with was the idea for the symbols William Ludwig the first came up with the idea for the sock hat And then it was the low boy and the high boy But they had to work together as as a as a team and it and it worked So there's always that type of of thought and innovation going on and trying to uh to expand our horizons with partners Absolutely, you make a symbol and the symbol even just down to the stand. You guys don't make symbol stands I mean it It has to work with and you don't just have a crash You have it as one tiny piece of a drum set. So you need to work well with other people Um, that brings it up to that the the stuff with the crescent symbol company. I'm very intrigued by that What's what's going on with that? well crescent crescent, um Mike bosbean and I had been friends for what I knew him and and we chatted and such and I knew that he was working with um with uh Who is it boss for us at that point and now early early on The folks who were who owned boss for us had asked us if we wanted to distribute them in the united states And I said well no But at the same time might we be partners with you guys and I went over to check out how things worked out at that factory And I was I was really um I wouldn't say dismayed. I was I was surprised at the way Manufacturing was done in istanbul. It was um very archaic and Yes, there are traditional methods that were being done but at the same time I just give an example of of some of the Some of the things that blew my mind was that um, for example when they were melting copper and tin And then you come out and you pour it The way we do it is you've got fire protection uniform on you've got a face shield You've got asbestos gloves and uh and uh other things for protection because if you get If it's raining you get a little drop of water on there and this has happened to us It goes And you've got a splash that comes out that um when it hit one fella on the uh, um on his Shirt it burned right through the shirt and went all the way down his back down to his ankle That heat that 2100 degrees was burning all the way down. That's a pretty serious thing. You got to take that seriously And these guys they're doing it in sandals with track suits Like oh my god, if this is the way that they're handling this what else are they doing? You know, they're lading was always just a little bit off and and their hammering was was was good enough Kind of stuff. So I just thought you know, no, I don't want to be a part of that and so And I knew this so when I was talking with Michael about what he was doing with phosphorus I said, Mike, you know, there's gonna come a day when you're gonna want to actually have More consistency, you're gonna want to have better sound. You're gonna want to have innovation And you can't do it the way you're doing things and he said, I know I know but I like I want that that ancient Technique I said, well, what do you think we're doing with an effort? And um It took a little while, but then he said, you know what? Yeah, I want to have that what you're talking about consistency Honesty you want to have honesty And he wanted to have innovation and so The the three of of them at that point it was Mike Fosbane who was the I guess you would call marketing distributor And um and manager and then of course there's Jeff Hamilton And uh stan more they came by and they asked, uh, what can we do? Let's see what you guys can put together and um stan was pretty easy. Um, his symbols are just weird But uh, jeff jeff was a tough one and he had specific He not only did he wanted to sound the right way He wanted to to feel the right way absolutely and he wanted the symbol to to Come down to I guess what you call really what we would call keyhole the hole So it would come down and sit in one position So he was always going to be able to hit that one spot and feel the feeling that he was used to and wanted to be playing on all the time Interesting. Um, yeah. Yeah, and and so that was a little bit different would never thought about that And um, so we we did we came together with with a a ride for him real fast Hats for him pretty quickly the chinese He has he has a chinese symbol that he uses for rides and a little bit of a little bit of accident once in a while My god that thing took that that took a long time It was like three months first to come to get that one right and uh, it finally came through and um And they loved it and so at that point what we said was great. We will make these for you You keep your name. We don't want any part of it because That's your business But I like these guys. There's a lot that we can learn from each other Let's let's roll that way and that was the way it was intended to to Play out what happened though was because michael, um, Bosnia had trouble with The companies in turkey they he had paid them a lot and they had not sent him a lot so he couldn't sell Symbols that he'd already paid for he ran out of money And and he got to the point where he said look I I they put me in a position where I just can't continue going forward I said Mike I didn't want to do this. But why don't we become partners on this? And he said okay that that works for me and it worked for for the other two fellows as well And so that's what we did. We ended up becoming partners But then after a while michael just said look you you go ahead Go ahead. I'll I'll take care of this side of of the business take care of the guys take care of of of um making sure that that uh, you know our our Innovation is keeping up with what we need it to be but you guys run with it and go and that's where we are now We're still partners with them. But in essence, it's a a part of the sabian line Yeah, it wasn't the intended outcome But he just got put in a position that was untenable and it wasn't fair but For for him the way that that he was left by the turks, but there it was What can you do? Well, it feels like something like again with the international business stuff like something like your dad and something like bob would have done And and seized the opportunity and and i'm sure it's going to be awesome It's been around for you know a few years now. So i'm sure it's it's uh people love it Well, I can tell you another story about uh That about dad he he wanted to he loved europe he loved traveling over there and he found out about italy and thought Whoa, this is I really like italy and so he found a company called um, I think it was called toscow and um, it was it's The the company um across the street from what is now or was then youth it Yeah And he decided you know what I I want to be able to go to italy. I like the symbols that they make they're interesting They're different. They were rhodocast as compared to rolled like we do them and um And he bought that company and so for years we had that company and what used to crack me up about it was The guy who managed it Had three sets of books There was one set and this is a very italian way of doing things There was one set of books that was for the government so you could tell them how much money you didn't make and you have to pay taxes And then there was then there was what he used to call the real books Which were the ones that he shared with dad And then there were the actual books the ones that he kept so that he could know how much he was skimming off the top Wow I know everyone you know when we found out I was like geez dad. What are you gonna do and he goes, ah come on He just let it go right we're doing well. He's that's just the way it happens in italy. Oh my god Wow. Yeah, I've seen a catalog of of tosco. Um I had no idea really sabian was um Was involved with that but that's I mean or I guess your your your father because that they're they're They were treated as just completely separate companies, right? He just had it as like an investment Yes, yeah, yep, they were and actually that was way back during the zilgen days when they were really when they were really something um, yeah, I mean Wonderful wonderful place interesting symbols, but but the way they're made they're roto cast They they they have a grain in them, but it's not a singular grain It's a grain all the way around which means anywhere that you hit the symbol You're gonna get a really quick sound eventually and not too long. You're gonna get a crack And yeah, and so it's unfortunate, but that those would go. Yeah Yep, awesome. Well Andy this is uh been honestly just a complete Pleasure talking to you because there's so many little things that I didn't know and um, and it's just good to get like like I've had a zilgen episode So I really am very happy to get both sides and uh, who'd you get on them? Who'd you get from them? We had uh, paul francison who was um Very very nice. Love paul very great. I think both you guys everyone's been very respectable and uh, You know towards each other, which I think is great. Yeah, well Andy I cannot thank you enough for being on the show and uh, and just being so You know quick to say yes and oh and thank you to kelly ray tubs Who's a great friend? She's actually helping me with some like um Publicist stuff and some writing up some stuff for me to you know submit to papers and things like that and it's just an amazing educator Um, just a great person great drummer and she's how we connected. I think you guys did some stuff at paisik together Which is awesome. Yes. Yep. Yeah, so actually and and she and dom actually have been uh have been in Connection much more tightly than we have. Oh, yeah. Well, that's awesome. Yeah And you don't have to thank me for doing this because I tell you I first of all, I love symbols So I'll talk about them all day No problem And uh, and and it's always fun to talk about the history of of the company and how things come along Awesome. Andy. Well, uh, thank you so much for being on the show and have a great rest of the day You bet Bart. Thanks and I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast