 Commissioner Tedda here, Mr. Poland here, Mr. Surnick here, Mr. Goldberg here, Commissioner flag here, Commissioner on Iran here, Councilmember Rodriguez here. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Next is communications. I believe we have Jenny Marsh, our assistant city manager, sitting in as her planning director role as well, I believe. Multiple, multiple hats. Good evening, commissioners. Nice to see you all this evening. I do not have any communications to start off the meeting. Thank you very much. Okay. I'm going to go over for everybody how this will work as we have public hearing items. So anybody who wishes to speak during a public invited to be heard, which is items four and eight on the agenda, or during any public hearing items, which are agenda items six and seven, we'll need to watch the live stream of the meeting for instructions about how to call in to provide public comment at the appropriate times. Susan just posted those onto the screen. So comments are limited to five minutes per person and each speaker will be asked to state their name and address for the record prior to proceeding with your comments. Please remember to mute your live stream when you're called upon to speak. So item four on our agenda is the public invited to be heard. This is for anybody who wants to speak to something that is not on the agenda tonight. We have public hearing sections of each agenda item. This is for something that's not on the agenda. Public invited to be heard. You need to call 1-888-788-0099, which is a new toll free number we're using. So it's 1-888-788-0099 and then enter in the meeting ID 862-0295-7430. That meeting ID is 862-0295-7430. It takes us about five minutes to process everybody who calls in and get you all set up correctly. So believe it or not, we're going to take a five minute break. We'll be right back. Chair, we'll give the viewing audience another 30 seconds and wait for the slide to disappear on their screens. I'm going to go ahead and let the callers in. So welcome to all the callers that we've just let in. Give us just a minute and then we will call on you one at a time by calling out your last three digits and then I will unmute you. You will need to say your name and your address before you speak. Is it three minutes, Chair? It's five minutes for us, yes. Okay, great. So you get five minutes in this one. I am ready to begin when you are. Okay, just a reminder to those who are going to make comments that this is for items that are not on the agenda tonight. And I have my phone here. I'll be timing your five minutes. So if we could, let's just take them top to bottom. We'll start with the phone number that ends in 447. Caller 447, go ahead and unmute. Can you unmute yourself? Let's try that again. Caller 447, can you go ahead and unmute? Just a reminder, please stop listening to the live stream because sometimes that'll confuse you. There's a 30-second delay. Hi, Caller 447. Yeah, can you hear me now? We sure can. You may begin. Great. My name is John Pellman. I live at 1303 Spruce Avenue. And I have some items that I've raised in several emails to Ava Pichersky regarding the proposed bond farm housing development. Is that appropriate for me to bring up those concerns? Let me just clarify for everybody. If you bring this up at this point in time, then it does not become part of the record for that item that will be heard. If you were to bring up your concerns when we're actually holding our hearing on that item, then your comments become part of the record for that specific item. So if that item were to be appealed or go in front of city council, then your comments would be included in the record that went without appeal. But if you speak now to an item that's on the agenda, then your comments are not part of that record that would go forward in an appeal process. Okay, then I definitely do not want to speak now because I want my comments to be on public record. Okay, very good. We'll get to that once we get to that item. Thank you, sir. Let's check in with caller ending in 795. Okay, and just one point of order. Once you speak, please go ahead and hang up, or I will put you back in the waiting room so I can keep track of who's spoken already. So I believe that was caller 447. So I'm going to put you back in the waiting room. And looks like we lost 795. So caller 131. All right, caller 131. I'm going to ask you to unmute. Caller 131, there you go. Hi, I'm a little confused. I wanted to address Bonn Farm. So should I also go to the waiting room again? Well, what? Yeah, give me just a minute. Let me say rather than hanging out in the waiting room that can get confusing for us. So if you just, if you just would hang up and wait for the live stream when we invite you to call back in, that would be the best. I see. Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Okay. Bye. Bye-bye. Okay, Susan. So we have caller 350. Caller 350. I'm going to ask you to unmute. Okay. Do I do the video? Oh, sorry, Jean. I clicked on your name as things were moving around. Give me just a minute. I'm going to mute you again. Caller 350. You should be able to unmute. Do you hear us? Yes, I can hear you. Jean, we're trying to get someone on that's called in. So I'm going to mute you again. I'm looking for caller 350. Can I respond to that? Those are the last three numbers of my brand new phone number that I just got today. Oh, so are you in the meeting twice? I don't know. I'm just here to speak to the bond farm proposal. Right, but you're one of our applicants. So. Okay. I think I understand what's going on. Ms. Jasmine, you're wanting to speak to the first item on our agenda, which is the co-housing proposal. Yes. Okay. If you speak now, then your comments will not be included in the public record for that item because this is the public invited to be heard part of the meeting. We need to open up the public hearing on that item first and then we will have a section of that item where the public will be invited to speak on that specific item. If you wait for that, then your comments would be carried forward in the record for that item if anybody ever looked for that in the future. Do you want to speak now or would you like to wait until we open up that item? I would like to wait, please. Okay. Very much. All right. So that would conclude our callers except Jean is still in as a caller and I don't want to remove her because then she won't be able to call back. So we'll just mute Jean and we'll leave her be. Okay. All right. So I will close the public invited to be heard. Thank you, everybody, for your patience with our technology. We're all pioneering new things here. Next on our agenda is approval of our minutes from our July 15, 2020 meeting. Any discussion amongst the commissioners? Any motion to approve? Remember to show me your video so I can see you if you're raising your hand. Commissioner Pollan. I've moved that we approve the meeting, approved the minutes for the July 15, 2020 regular meeting. Okay. Motion to approve the minutes. Commissioner, I saw you had your hand up. Yeah, I wanted to congratulate our recording secretary, Ms. Madrid. These were very detailed minutes, but I do want to second Commissioner Pollan's motion. Okay. Seconded. Any further discussion? Let's just have a vote by hand. Those in favor of approving the minutes say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstentions for not being present? Okay. So Jane. I abstain. Okay. So Jane, that is four in favor and commissioners Flague, Teta and Goldberg abstain because they were not present at the meeting. Okay. Thank you. All right. Next on our agenda is the Bond Farm Community Co-Housing Preliminary PUD and Annexation Rezoning Concept Plan Amendments, PZR 2020-5 with Principal Planner Eva Parachewski. I need to disclose that I live in Old Town on Grant Street. I am north of Third Street, so I'm not part of the Bond Farm neighborhood. I've had no ex parte communications about this agenda item. All of my decisions at tonight's meeting will be based on the information that I hear tonight and that was presented in our packet. All right, Eva. I need to disclose as well. Sorry. Okay. In the past, I worked with Peter Spalding in another co-housing project in Boulder, not this one. Again, regarding this particular project, I didn't have any ex parte communication with Peter and I believe I can use my best judgment for the rest of the community. Thanks. Great. Thank you, Commissioner Honoran. Any others? Okay. Eva, let's hear your presentation. Thank you, Chair Schoernick and commissioners. Susan, would you mind cuing up the PowerPoint? Thank you. Good evening, commissioners. Eva Parachewski, Principal Planner. This is the Bond Farm Co-Housing Preliminary PUD Plan and Concept Plan Amendment discussion. I will try to make my remarks brief because I know we have a lot of ground to cover tonight. Next slide, please. I'm just going to give the commission the background and the zoning side of it and the applicant will discuss review criteria, compatibility and those type of things. Just to give you the background, it was in your packet. This property is at 1313 Spruce Avenue. This is in the historic Bond Farm neighborhood, that south of 3rd Avenue and east of Sunset Street. I apologize, but you can't see my mouse, so you just have to look through the slides. It's just shy of six acres. The total property acreage was previously obviously a farm and there's an old farmhouse, a residential home there constructed in 1900. It was annexed in 2006 with the zoning of single family residential and the property to the properties to the north on the north side of Spruce Avenue are all zoned residential single family. The parcels to the east and south of this project site are zoned residential mixed neighborhood, which does allow a higher density. It's kind of a transition zone. And then the parcel immediately west right there where it says Boko SR. That property is a residential, some residential homes and it's in unincorporated Boulder County. It's not in Longmont Limits. It's a budding Francis Street there and that is zoned suburban residential. And so just from a historical standpoint, again after it was annexed in 2006 to single family, it sat undeveloped until 2015. Peter Spaulding approached the city talking about doing a co-housing community here and since the zoning for residential single family would not permit co-housing because it requires a detached house on a single lot, they pursued a rezoning to change that from single family residential to PUDR in our former development code. As you know, we had PUD zones. The PUDR zoning would allow for some commercial mixed use that's tied into a residential use and it also allowed other types of residential units beyond single family houses such as town homes, condos, that type of thing. And so that went through the rezoning process with Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council between 2015 and 2016, a very robust public participation process. Ultimately, and this did have the live work, what you see before you tonight is what was in the rezoning concept plan as well. It was with the live work commercial facing Spruce Avenue and then the multi-family and the single family homes kind of on the south and then the community garden on the south. And so that was all approved by City Council in March of 2016. It had to be approved within a, so the rezone, all rezonings in the city when you apply for that, the rezoning ordinance would have a accompanying concept plan. The concept plan is essentially what you see tonight for the, for the co-housing community. The reason the applicant is, we're going to get to this in the next slide, but part of that concept plan included a proposed pedestrian trail on the west side. So again, I don't have my mouse, but it's here on the west side, right adjacent to that Boulder County property and there was a pedestrian trail. I'll have a slide for that next. And then with that, Council approved an annexation agreement amendment again because the original annexation from 2006 didn't envision co-housing here. So we amended the annexation agreement. So tonight there's an amendment to that concept plan. It essentially looks exactly the same as the one Council approved in the rezone, but it eliminates that pedestrian trail, which I'll get to next. So in that rezoning it was zoned residential PUD. Our zoning, our land development code switched over in September 2018 to the current code, which as you know, we changed all the names of the zoning districts and eliminated most PUD zones. So in our current code, the property is zoned residential mixed neighborhood, which is consistent with these parcels here on the south and the west, which is again meant to be this transition zone. But this project application was submitted right before we transitioned into the new zoning code. So this project's being reviewed under the PUD residential regulations in the old code. This project is also being event, although it's being evaluated under the old zoning code, it is being evaluated under the current comprehensive plan, the Envision Longmont plan. And that's because in 2016, when City Council adopted the current comprehensive plan, the ordinance adopting it said that the Envision Longmont plan now replaces the old comprehensive plan. So we're evaluating this project under the current comprehensive plan, but under the old development code. Next slide, please. So again, just some background on the comprehensive plan where you see the red arrows of property site. It's designated as mixed neighborhood. And the surrounding land sort of on the south and the east and west. This whole area south of Spruce Street is designated mixed neighborhood. Mixed neighborhood is meant to serve as a transition area between that single family and on the north and sort of more higher density and commercial corridors. As you can see south of the railroad tracks there, we have the mixed use employment zone. So this is sort of that buffer between the single family and that more industrial zone south of the tracks. So within this land use category, the allowable type, it allows all types of residential uses. So single family, town hall, multifamily, the density that's allowed in this area is between a minimum of six and a maximum of 18 dwelling units per acre. So for this project site, I'll get to it on the next slide, but although it's about six acres, they're dedicating almost an acre to the city for a public park. So the net project site for developability is five acres. And so that would mean the allowable density is between 30 to 90 dwelling units. In the comprehensive plan, the mixed neighborhood land use category allows secondary commercial uses such as small scale office, retail and neighborhood serving uses to sort of where that mixed use component comes into play. And then obviously as you can see the yellow on the north side of spruce street and north of it, this is all designated single family neighborhood in our comprehensive plan. Next slide. So there's two proposals. I'm going to start with the first one on this slide. This is a preliminary PUD plan. The way the process goes is you go to planning and zoning commission to get approval of your preliminary PUD and then you come back and you do a final PUD and that's where we do really the fine tuning of the details of the engineering and the landscaping. So these are more high level review. But there's two parts to this. The first part is a minor subdivision. As part of their annexation agreement with city council when they rezoned, they were obligated to dedicate a .85 acre parcel to the city for a future park on the east side. So if you see this white rectangle here on the right side, that is the park dedication that's going to the city of Longmont. On the remaining five acres of the parcel, again this is proposing a co-housing community with 46 residential units total. On the north side, which you see at the top of the big white rectangle at the top, that's a mixed use building. It's about 46,000 square feet. They're proposing 24 condo units and then six live work units in which there will be about just shy of 6,000 square feet of commercial on the ground floor. That commercial, again, is tied to the live work units. So it's not what you might think of as a shopping center or something like that. These are live work type of businesses. And then within that building, there's a 67 space parking garage. Because it's co-housing, they are also proposing like a maker space, a community laundry area. And I'll let the applicant kind of go into detail about the uses inside that building. But that's the general gist of that building. And then on south of that building, we've got 12 units of townhomes as you can see kind of scattered around. And then sort of on your bottom left, there'll be four single family houses, detached single family houses. They will all have their own parking as well. In addition, there's an underground community barn. And then they're on the, well on the south and around the property in aggregate, they have, they're proposing two and a half acres of common open space. And this includes a 16,000 square foot community garden there kind of on the bottom right. And then a 18,000 square foot detention pond for stormwater. And that's on the bottom left. In addition, there will be 18 street parking spray spaces along Spruce Avenue. They'll provide a couple other spaces on this private driveway here that where you enter in off Spruce and swing around. The applicant, because in the interest of time, I didn't want to pull up the elevations as well. So the applicant is going to bring up the building elevations and he'll discuss architecture compatibility. But in reviewing this against the PUD standards, the project met all of the development standards in that, in our old code, except one minor thing. The city requires a 30 foot landscape buffer on the west side. And they're essentially providing it. There's way more than 30 feet on your west side of landscaping. However, as you can see, building E, that's that single family house way on the sort of the left edge there. It encroaches 28 square feet into that landscape buffer. But we kind of detailed in the staff report why this would be all right for a modification, because they have provided additional landscaping and mitigation in the form of, you know, providing almost double the amount of required landscaping that would be required by code. And next slide. So the second part of this application is their concept plan amendment. The, on your left there, the graphic, you will see this was the concept plan that was part of their rezoning application for the co-housing and for this annexation agreement amendment. And you'll see there on the left where the red circle is, they had proposed a pedestrian trail that would lead you from Spruce Avenue and go directly south and kind of head toward Isaac Walton Park. In working through the, and this is part of the delay in this project review, was the applicant was trying to secure easements from adjacent property owners to meet city requirements for this trail. And over the course of several months of negotiations, wasn't able to get acquiescence and the applicant is going to discuss further his justifications for why he couldn't make those negotiations work. In addition, as part of the traffic study, they did a pedestrian study, pedestrian volume study, which indicated low pedestrian volumes. And it's in the traffic study. I could also share my screen if you need it. And I believe we send it to you by email in the document there, but essentially it counted like between zero to nine pedestrians between morning peak hour and up to seven pedestrians in the afternoon peak hour. I was at various locations. Again, that's in the traffic study, but they studied pedestrian data on Spruce Avenue and all of the intersections around it. The applicant in their PUD plans shows an alternative pedestrian route in which they use existing streets. And I apologize there for the graphic so small, but as you can see, they identified like four different routes. You can go all the way over to west over to sunset. You can drop down at some of the other local streets. And that's within the PUD plan and the applicant will kind of go into that further. Next slide, please. And so as far as community input, this has been, like I said, a lengthy process between 2015-2016. We had neighborhood meetings. We had planning commission and we had city council to discuss this proposed rezone and this exact project was what was considered and it was the co-housing with the mixed use with the live work. And but then obviously we had to start the process over again after the rezone for this PUD plan. Preliminary PUD plans require a neighborhood meeting before you kick off the application. So we had a neighborhood meeting back in 2017. This was after a year, about a year after the rezone. It took the applicant about a year to get the detailed plans put together. There are about nine attendees. It doesn't include staff or the applicant. The concerns that were raised are, as you can imagine, concerns about parking, traffic impacts, architectural compatibility with the existing neighborhood, how would they integrate and the limits of those commercial units that were proposed, questions about the timeline for the city park, questions about construction timing and the sort of the ownership and management of the co-housing development. And then they came in, like I said, in September, just before the new code took place and submitted their formal application. And so we posted signs and we sent letters out again to the neighbors. We got five letters or emails and those were in the packet, but essentially one was in support. One was to sort of general questions and three of them were opposed. The concerns raised were integrating commercial uses into this residential zone. Didn't like development in general. I think one letter said they didn't think mixing of socio-economic backgrounds would work. And so we went through our review process with the applicant. Ultimately, we finally got to this public hearing. So I sent notices out earlier this month, August 6th. Before your packets went out, I got three letters and two phone calls against. And so since that came in before packets went out, it should have been in your packet, but it was generally concerns about traffic from the commercial, the density of it and wildlife concerns. And then after your packets went out, I got seven letters. I know it says six here on the slide and that's because I gave my slides to our IT manager before the end of the day and so I got another letter. So actually I got seven letters opposed and I believe Jane forwarded all of those to you on email. But the same general concerns about traffic and parking and the commercial compatibility concerns. And next slide. So again, since traffic was one of the main concerns, one thing I wanted to do was introduce Tyler Stamey, our traffic engineering administrator and Caroline Michael, our traffic engineer. Both were involved in the review of this traffic study. Their conclusions were, and they were similar to the conclusions raised when we brought the whole co-housing project for the rezone to council. They kind of based it on a potential of 50 units, even though this is only 46, they kind of try to be more conservative and added more units. With some live work and they did identify the live work components and they did include approximately 6,000 square feet of commercial. Their conclusions were that this would generate 378 weekday trips with full build out. And then of those trips, approximately 35 morning peak hour trips and 39 peak hour trips would be generated during peak hours from this project. And the report noted that the current level of service at the nearby intersections, and those were identified in the staff report, but essentially spruce intersections with Sunset Street, Sherman Street, Bowen Street, and then that third and Bowen intersection, all of those operate at level of service B or higher. And the conclusion of the traffic study is that with these additional 378 weekday trips, the traffic at these intersections would still kind of remain at this level until 2040. And that's whether this development goes forward or not. And so when we get to Q&A, if you have questions about the traffic study, I'm sure Tyler and Carolyn would be happy to take those questions. Next slide, please. The ecological study. So as you know in our code, it only requires applicants to study and look for federally protected species, birds, or plants. And so that's what this report did. And it was turned in when the application was submitted in 2018. And then since so much time had lapsed, we had asked for an update. And so they gave us an update this year. So we got one in February. Recommendations remained the same. There was no habitat for any federal or state protected species, birds, or plants. It did have a recommendation that the applicant get jurisdictional determination from Army Corps, because the Denio-Taylor mill ditch sits right on the north property border. And in case this project was going to discharge to the ditch, they recommended we determine if this is a water of the U.S. that would need a 404 permit. So the applicant pursued that with the Army Corps. And in your packet, we got a letter in August of 2019 determining that no 404 permit was required for this project. So it was not jurisdictional. We do have Steve Renzweiler from the Parks Department. He's not here to speak on the ecological study, but because a portion of this property, almost an acre, is being dedicated to the city of Longmont for a public park, Steve is here to answer any questions you have about the park development. Next slide, please. And so in closing, again, I just want to make it succinct because the applicant wants to do their presentation next. The recommendation from staff is resolution 5B, which is doing two things for you. It's recommending conditional approval of this PUD plan on the condition that City Council approves this concept plan amendment that removes the pedestrian trail. And it also then recommends approval of the concept plan amendment removing the trail with the finding that the applicant met the review criteria by providing sufficient justification that they aren't able to make the trail work. And there was low pedestrian counts. The next step after planning and zoning commission is City Council on the concept plan amendment for the pedestrian trail. That would require two readings of an ordinance. The public hearing notices would be mailed out to a thousand foot radius when that second reading of the ordinance is scheduled. Right now it's to be determined because we're trying to get through this and we also have to work through the agenda with the city manager's office. So those dates will be forthcoming. And I believe, next slide. Yeah, I believe that's it. So the applicant, Peter Spalding, with the Bond Farm Co-Housing Community would be happy to make his presentation next. And then if you have any questions for either of us to clarify anything, we're happy to take your questions. I also wanted to know one other thing. Chris Huffer from Public Works Engineering, the administrator is here. If you have any questions about the utilities and why it's been such a challenge for the applicant to get easements. So Chris is also here to answer questions if any engineering questions arise. Thank you. Thank you, Eva. Let's go ahead with Mr. Spalding's presentation. Good evening. My name, can you hear me? We sure can. Can we, should we unmute the architect and the design team so that they can also present with me? They all should be able to. They just need to, there they go. I'm here. My name is Alex Gore. And then is Brian Horne here? Susan, did Brian join the meeting? Yes, he's here. Okay, great. I'll ask him to try and unmute. My name is Peter Spalding and I'm with Colorado Co-Housing Development Company and the developer for this project. And I have Alex Gore and Brian Horne who will be joining us in this presentation. Susan, if you could go ahead and start the PDF file. There you go. So the general layout for this is I'm going to go over some basic concepts for the co-housing community, what the product is, and then we're going to get into the DRC comments. And then I'm going to do some responses to the public comments. And then we'll conclude the slide presentation and then we'll be open for any questions that you might have. If you go to the next slide, please. So here this is the 46 unit plan development. It showcases the main condo building on the upper level. And then north of the private drive, we have three triplexes, townhomes, and then south of the drive, we have the four single family homes, the underground barn, and another triplex. To the south is the contiguous land for farming. And then to the east is the future city park. Next slide. So the vision for bond farm co-housing communities is to live creatively in a peaceful relationships with one another, our neighbors, and our environment. We want to create a multi-generational, multi-cultural community in a planned, rural, farm-like setting, respecting everyone's need for private time and space while providing common facilities. For an active, safe, and caring HOA, we are working towards affordable choices to reflect the social and economic diversity of our membership. An objective among the existing members is to create an environment that supports healthy living practices and to live independently among one another in a supportive and thoughtful manner. The existing buyers all believe in developing a community that's oriented around the cultivation and harvesting of agricultural systems to develop holistic systems that are sustainable and efficient and to celebrate art. Concepts that fit within the co-housing model are respecting the viewpoints of others, sustainability and healthy living practices, energy, efficiency, and smart growth plans, both micro and macro, to participate with the bond farm neighborhood association and to integrate intelligent, strong, and self-governing protocols for the HOA. Next slide please. For the greater community benefits, not only does the internal community benefit from one another and shared resources and knowledge, so does the greater bond farm neighborhood association and the residents within and outside the city lawnmonds. By collaborating with prior and existing co-presidents of the bond farm neighborhood association and neighboring families, we concluded that the best location for the future part was in the northeast corner of our site, which complements the existing bond farm neighborhood association park to the east of the future park. This decision-making process for the park location became the basis of the bond farm co-housing community concept plan. This was completed prior to the developer seeking buyers into the co-housing development. So in other words, I worked with the community first on the future park prior to starting the project. So you can imagine future block parties like Halloween hay rides, community Easter egg hunts, holidays in general, educational farming, and art for students that relate to urban planning, farming, and sustainability, and more. Our programming is optimized for this for these events. The FCC is planning to offer associate memberships to the greater neighborhood so that they too can take advantage of the bond farm co-housing community's programming and amenities such as recording studios, commercial-grade kitchen, wood and metal shop, community events like art and cooking workshops, and more. Next slide, please. The original concept of this site was agribusiness. So we wanted to keep that in true form. So we've developed a plan that's based on a CSA and an art business model. So we'll be an organic farm-to-table community. We'll be offering access shares and on-site programming to associate members. The agribusiness, and this is part of the economic model that we're presenting, the agribusiness and art will help to reduce HOA dues for the residents, which is a growing problem in Colorado and in housing. Based off of a 158,000 annual budget, our average monthly bill will be $285 per household. Revenue generated from the CSA and art and other services being offered, we project that our dues will be reduced to on average $215 or lower. This model can help address the affordability issue for those with fixed incomes. Educational opportunities for all ages regarding our business, lessons on how to raise chickens, bees, bats, and how to farm for all ages. There will be no farmer's market at this location. The CSA is tailored for the buyers and for the associate members. There's plenty of art programming designed into the Bond Farm Co. Housing Community and its architecture, and Bond Farm Co. Housing Community has several makerspaces and a commercial-grade kitchen that will help to launch a successful business plan. Next slide, please. This is a design review criteria issue. The first action our team accomplished was to host the meeting for the Bond Farm Neighborhood Association for the location of the desired park. As I mentioned, the decision was to locate it to the east. The addition of the city park will further Bond Farm Co. Housing Community's agenda of minimizing the development's overall footprint, which was critical for sustainability. Neighbors will be able to visit park with their four-legged friends and during off-peak hours, the wildlife will be able to take advantage of the site. This is a great opportunity also for Bond Farm and the neighborhood in the city of Longmont to collaborate on the designing and naming of the park. The city park will serve the neighborhood in many different and beneficial ways. We look forward to working with the greater community in the city of Longmont parks and natural resources to design and name the future park. To the right, you can see some of the amenities of small parks. Next slide, please. I'm going to go ahead and turn this over to Alex. Yes. All right. Hello. Thank you, everyone. Basically what this picture is showing is that instead of having the path to the west side, the Bond Farm Community has agreed with city and planning to pay for the construction and the maintenance of a new access to the east, basically off of Spruce and Grant. So that is a picture, that's really a blow-up picture of that intersection, where that light gray squiggly line will be a new path that's ADA-related, that has ADA grading. Why we can't do the path on the other side? There's multiple reasons, but one is the site is sloped too much. Concept four years ago is different from getting grading in and everything else. So it would be a very steep path where this path to the east allows to access the parks and the other sidewalks in a more safe manner. Also, as Peter's pointed out, and in the site that you've seen before, there's four other ways to access the parks. Besides that too, that access path that can no longer be built is because it couldn't be agreed with the property owner to the east too, so it wasn't even on the site. So if we go to the next slide, we can see one reason why. In the concept plan, it initially started as a five-foot nice path, and because of all the everything that was needed with water, with drainage, with being able to access, it grew to be 10 feet, and that really puts a burden on the neighbors to the south, and they've actually agreed to this section, which is very gracious of them, but to continue that through to the steep site and have a large path that goes through that isn't in the theme of the design and the character of Bond Farm, which has, which has broken up nicely, the scale is wrong, and then also just the steepness of it won't work either. So, and then we just like to thank the homeowners that did help with this drainage part and all the issues that we had to do there to the south because they really helped put this put this together, but the path essentially on the site will not work for those other reasons. If you could go to the next slide. So that was one of the main issues was the path, and then the second issue is this encroachment into the landscape buffer. It's a very small encroachment. It's not even a takes up a large portion. It's just a triangle shape. The reason for this is you can see that we're kind of sandwiched between a utility easement and this landscape buffer. So to mitigate this, not only can we provide more plants around there and throughout the sites, but on the other side of the property is a 15 foot easement. So essentially we, this is meeting that buffer. It's just a small technicality in this little area where we're asking the Planning and Zoning Commission to use their good judgment and allow this to Peter. Would you like to add anything to that? I know that sums it up, I think. And then, yep, next slide. And I think transportation will take over. Yeah, Brian Horne. Hi. Thank you. Appreciate it. The, as was mentioned by staff, the site is forecasted to generate minimal traffic volumes and is consistent with the zoning. As was mentioned during the staff presentation, a max use of this land would be 90 dwelling units and that would be 30% approximately more traffic than what we're proposing. Also, as mentioned, the traffic study was conservative. We didn't take any reductions for the synergies between the commercial and the residential. We evaluated those as if they would generate their own traffic, which in practice, there would be some reduction between the two of those. We had a number of discussions with staff about placement of traffic calming, which is required in the code. We were able to find an ideal location for that. Additionally, the on-street parking will create an element of friction, which will reduce speeds along this roadway. Also, as mentioned by staff, with or without the development, the build-out and long-range 2040 conditions are insignificantly different. Again, all intersections operating at level of service C or better for those unfamiliar levels of service are graded on an A to F scale. C is pretty good. Also, because traffic volumes that we're generating are relatively low, our contribution to the surrounding intersections are less than 3% in total future conditions. You can see a note there that Spruce has remaining capacity and we're contributing to about 3% of that additional capacity. Next slide, I believe. Okay, next slide. So to go into public comment responses, there are six single-level story live work units that are going to be between 890 to 955 square feet and their one story. They're tailored for small mom-and-pop businesses. A live work unit, just so for the public that's listening, would comprise of roughly a 400 square foot living space and approximately 500 square feet for a workspace. And those configurations are a little bit variable, but these businesses essentially have to be small because their workspaces are going to be small. These single-story live work unit ceiling heights are 9 foot as far as are the units above on the second story, the residential units. The only difference is that the upper level units have sloped roofs over the dining areas, so that gives it a little bit of an elevation change, but that was an architectural aesthetic decision that we chose. So the overall building height ranges from 19 feet to 25 feet in height, which are similar to if not less than other residences along the south side of Spruce Avenue. Refer to slide 28 of the PUD plan to verify these elevations. Next slide, please. This is the perspective of, you know, of the live workspaces in the courtyard. This shows sort of how we've broken that building apart, so it's not monolithic. And in the very background, you can see the elevator shaft that goes down from the parking level to the second story. They sort of have a sky bridge. And in the foreground, you're seeing four of the live work units. And above those live work units, we have green terraces. And in those terraces, we'll probably have dwarf trees, which we're actually growing right now. So the look and feel for the architecture is going to really soften in that area. And we believe it'll be a great multifunctional use, which formally breaks the building into. It'll be a nice opportunity for future block parties and gatherings for the neighborhood and other events. Next slide, please. So the type of businesses, you know, there are some concerns about what kind of businesses would be coming in here. And as we identify, these are essentially going to have to be small businesses. So we're willing to write into our declarations that we wouldn't allow for any liquor stores, dispensary, pawn stores, predatory lending services and the like. But examples of what we would promote would be arts, crafts, gallery, yoga, IT, a workspace hub, a mini tinker mill, massage therapy, psychotherapy, physicians, boutique, mom, pop businesses, floors, catering, chiropractor, dentistry, law, developer, contractor, educational, various nonprofit organizations, and many other entrepreneurial practices that are legitimate. Having this type of diverse talent in any given neighborhood benefits everyone. It also showcases the City of Long Long Planning's LCAP goals of housing diversity by adding this housing type to their housing inventory. There are nearly 200 co-housing communities across the United States and thousands across the globe. Co-housing is a proven housing model for people interested in seeking to live in an open gated-like environment. This is a very successful housing type that offers various benefits and opportunities. Co-housing is relatively new. Its inception to the U.S. was in the mid-80s. And like humans, no two co-housing communities are the same. They're all unique. Their uniqueness is developed and celebrated through their diversity. Next slide, please. This sort of gives you a perspective from Spruce and Grant. So this is a northeast to southwest perspective. You can see where the roof line breaks up. Those are typically dining areas. We're using a bat and board style on top of concrete, which is very popular in agricultural communities and rural communities. The main building is not a monolithic structure. The architects have worked really hard on pushing and pulling on the building and breaking it so that it does give more of a neighborhood style. The only difference in this rendering is that you see the diagonal parking. That's no longer there. We're actually doing parallel parking along that area. So there will be actually more green space between the parking, the parallel parking and the building itself. Next slide, please. As you can see from the aerial, the park is closest to us. That's to the east. That's the Future City Park. And it's important for these DRC comments to understand that from the south boundary to the north boundary, there's a 30-foot elevation. It's actually more but a 30-foot elevation change from the south to the north. And that's where we really got into big challenges with the north-south trail. And with the Future Park and with the contiguous land for farming, we'll have 46% of the development in green space. Next slide, please. The common spaces, and this goes towards the associate memberships that we're going to want to offer to the greater community. We have a wood and metal shop, bike repair, a recording studio, greenhouse, farming, approximately two acres, maker spaces, indoor-outdoor dining for potlucks, commercial-grade kitchen, flex spaces for social events, centralized mail, two guest rooms for the community and the development of the associate memberships for the greater community and more. Next slide, please. Walkability, bikeability. We are very interested in increasing our walkability, bikeability score. So BFC members understand and promote the importance of walkability and bikeability, which is why the mixed use component is so valuable in the neighborhood. Offering those type of services, neighbors can walk to those services rather than get in their car and generate trips. With all that is programmed into the BFCC development, homeowners have less reasons to leave the site, making their lifestyles more efficient. So while we're showing standard trip generations from other housing models, we believe that we would actually be generating less trips in and out of our site. Due to the site's location, we have plenty of opportunities to walk or bike to downtown Longmont for services to open green spaces and other local amenities. All this helps to reduce but vehicular trips in and out of the site. And BFCC is also developing a car share and car pooling program to further reduce trips in and out of the community. Next slide, please. Lastly, about being a good neighbor, all the points that we were speaking to in this presentation helped to make us good neighbors due to the programming that we're bringing to the community and the level of collaboration and opportunity that we're creating on and off site. On the last Sunday of every month, the Bon Farm co-housing community offers a public presentation from 3 to 5 p.m. including a site walk. Due to coronavirus, we are offering this presentation online through Zoom meetings. And we've been doing this from the inception of this project. For more information, please visit our website, www.BFCC.me. All of our contact information is there, and I encourage you to contact me if you don't fully understand the project. This is to the public. If you're a resident of Bon Farm Neighborhood Association, please stop by. We'll answer any questions. And lastly, we'd like to thank the City of Longmont planners, the department officials, and for taking the time to work with us to help create Longmont's first co-housing community. And now we're open for questions. Thank you, Mr. Svalding. Any questions from the commission at this time that are just to clarify anything that we just heard in the two presentations? I don't see anybody raising their hands at this time. So it does take us a while to bring the public in for their public comments. So let's get started with that process. So Susan will put our screen back up for the call-in. So now is the time for those who want to make comments about the Bon Farm co-housing project to call in to 1-888-788-0099. And when you call that number, enter 862-0295-7430. So it's 888-788-0099. And enter 862-0295-7430. Thanks to the public in advance for your patience with this process. I know it's a little bit laborious, but we're going to take another five-minute break as Susan and Heather and Jane, our expert city staff, manage all the details. Chair. Yes, Susan. We're going to give our live stream audience a few more seconds and wait for the slide to catch up with us. I'm going to admit everyone who's in the waiting room looks like we've got about 14 guests. Great. So for all of you that just joined us, please give us a few minutes and we will get started. We will call each of you individually one by one by the last three digits of your phone number. I will ask you to unmute the phone and state your name and address before you speak. You'll have five minutes to speak. The chair will be timing you. When you're done, you're welcome to hang up or I will put you back in the waiting room and you can hang up after that. That's just so that we can keep track of all the different numbers here. All right, looks like that slide cleared the live stream and I'm ready to begin when you are chair. Okay, Susan, let's start with number 047. 047, do you hear us? Can you unmute? And one more tip, please mute your live stream if you're still listening to us. 047. Hi. Can you turn off the live stream audio because that's going to confuse us. You've got it. All right, sir, you may begin. Okay, hi, this is Kyle Swanson at 187 Grant Street and I just had a question about the residents who abut the property if there were any plans for a screen or any type of good neighbor fence or something that goes along the property line. That's my question. Okay, we don't actually do a back and forth Q&A during this, but we will note your question and I'm sure we can get an answer to that for you, sir. Is there anything that you'd like to state at this time? That's it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Susan, we'll go to 060. Caller 060. I'm going to unmute you. Can you hear us? Caller 060. I'm asking to have you unmute. There you go. Okay. Can you hear us? Hi, thanks. Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, you may begin. Right, this is Doug Jones. I'm at 243 Sherman Street just up the road from the Bond Farm and I'd just like to address Mr. Spalding. I appreciate the project and I think it is a strong project and we're glad that a project like this is there instead of a large apartment complex that could actually be there or anything else that could be there. So we're appreciative of that. One thing I'm very concerned about is the challenges of the trail and that was one of the big sellers for us to approve that project down there. I think bringing that trail into our community and having it accessible as the park and having access from, you know, our neighborhood through there and down to the path there on off of First Street is critical to the success of your project and to, you know, allowing the community and the co-housing group to kind of come together. So I think that's a really critical thing and I do not think that the project should go ahead without having that trail in place. And the other comments I have are about the architecture the, I think the board and bat is okay. It's not great. You're seeing a lot more of that modern design in the area but I don't think that it's very as appropriate as it could be to the style of the architecture that is currently in the neighborhood. And the thing that I'm really opposed to are those huge white banded roof lines that you're showing along with the white banded you know planter bases or whatever I saw on that elevation. I did with a really industrial kind of strip mall type of look and sure you can cover up with plants and things like that but really that kind of style right there is just I don't think appropriate at all for what you guys are trying to accomplish and especially not for the neighborhood. So those are my two comments on that. Again I do appreciate the project there and I think you guys are doing a good job of, you know, talking to the community and being as transparent as possible with us. So I want to encourage that and tell you that we hear that but also those two items at the trail and the architecture I think really could be improved. So thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Jones. Susan let's move on to number 447. Caller 447, I'm asking you to unmute. Can you hear us? Caller 447, there you go. Can you hear us? Can you hear me now? We sure can. You may begin. Great. This is John Tillman. I live at 1303 Spruce Avenue. So my house space is on Spruce. I had a couple of concerns really centering around traffic. Number one is I'm really curious and I just want to log this. Why was the traffic study done in the summer versus some of their time of year when school was in session? Because as anybody knows there's going to be more traffic when school is in session. There's school buses and there's various people driving their kids to and from school etc. So I'm a little concerned about when the traffic study was done. Second thing is I did a little research and we have approximately give or take 120 housing units that either face Spruce Avenue or on various streets that really have no other choice than to exit on to Spruce Avenue, streets like Donovan, Judson, etc., south of South of Spruce. And this would add in my estimation about 35% increase to housing units that of people that would need to use Spruce Avenue to get anywhere in Longmont. I'm a little bit stymied as to why the projections are so low when 35% increase in housing units that exit on to Spruce seems pretty sizable to me. So I really question that. The third thing is the ADU impact. So Longmont is very ADU friendly now. We're going to see and I'm sure that the council is seeing a lot more applications for ADUs. In fact one of them I think it's going to be discussed tonight. And that in and of itself without this project is going to add density to Longmont and certainly density to the area around Bonn Farm. So I'm a little curious as to why that's not really being discussed to the manner that I believe it should be because it's going to certainly have a negative impact on the traffic on Spruce. The other thing I want to point out is Spruce has no dedicated bike lanes. It has sidewalks that were more than afterthought. So and in fact Spruce isn't even the same width along Spruce. It tends to be wider as you get closer to Bowen. When you get over to Sunset Spruce tends to be a little bit narrower. We have parking on both sides of Spruce and if anybody's ever traveled on Spruce very much like I have you're going to find that there are many times when if cars are parked on both sides of Spruce you literally have to pull over or back up to allow another car to come in the other direction. It's just Spruce is just a real mess as it is without the impact that this is going to have. And the other thing I want to mention too is that we've seen you know I would call it the COVID effect. The number of UPS FedEx Amazon trucks that travel up and down Spruce has always been an issue but certainly since COVID and people buying things and having things delivered Grubhub you know you name it right. The number of trips is from what I've seen looking out my window here and certainly trips that have been made in my house to deliver things has increased astronomically. So there are just a number of factors here that I think are taking a precarious situation with Spruce to begin with and I really think they're amplifying that and I think adding a 35% increase in housing units that exit on the Spruce I think without some sort of redesign or some sort of you know I don't know what the answer is but I can tell you right now that Spruce the way it's currently running and designed without either widening or out without you know I don't know but stop signs or speed bumps or something we're really asking for trouble here so and I should know from a person that lives on Spruce and has lived on Spruce for quite a while and and Ava has all my other comments I've been a lot more detailed I don't want to keep this short so others can contribute but just want to make that clear thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Spillman. Next is number 519. And Chair I just have one comment. Oh yeah. I did not lock the meeting before I began letting caller speak so I let one other caller in. Okay. Okay caller 519 I'm going to ask you to unmute caller 519 can you hear us your phone number ends in the three digits 519. All right I'm going to move on they may be listening to the live stream caller 525 I'm going to ask you to unmute caller 525. I'm Jean Jasmine. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me? I can hear you. One moment please we've got two callers going Jean I'm going to let you speak and caller 519 I'm going to put you back on mute we'll get back to you. Go ahead Jean. Okay. I'm a totally thrilled person about the bond farm co-housing community. Miss Jasmine could you state your name and address for the record first please. I'm Jean Jasmine 210 and a half Lincoln Street Longmont Colorado. Okay thank you. Uh-huh. I've been in volunteer service through all of my professional career and my focus is in getting people to get together share their skills share their concerns then their needs and their abilities to help and one Sunday I had heard about the bond farm co-housing community development and because I lived two blocks away from it I decided to walk up and see what it was all about and I have I've been a widow since I was 31 and raised my kids by myself and I've been happy with an independent life but it's it got to be a point where I would like to share my life with others and I walked into the bond farm lawn and Peter was there with a table of about eight or ten people all talking about the development and it sounded like something that I could not believe was really happening it was like a triple A win for me agriculture animals and art all around a community that's sharing and supporting each other and allowing us to develop skills and interests that we didn't know we had and as we get older there there's a need to have little kids around have teenagers in our community that we can interact with them and we can have the support and give the support that we need when we're getting older so the opportunity to have a place that supports others and is as and to be supported a place to learn new skills a place to contribute to a healthier greater environment and neighborhood and a place to form friendships through participating in common interests and activities I thought that was just a fine idea and I'm real excited about Peter's focus on sharing what we have with the greater neighborhood as well so right now bond farm has no central gathering place and so I'm a representative of the ngla neighborhood group leaders association and unlike smaller communities that have places that they get together on a regular basis we don't see each other usually until we have our block party which Peter hosts on the bond farm co-housing community property which is it has become like a central gathering place and people like it a lot besides that they come and walk their dogs and the interaction with pets that some of us don't have is really another real nice addition so the all of the things that that Peter explained I won't go over again but they make the future of people who have little kids and people who are professionals and people who are older it makes life really enjoyable and exciting and so I am really really happy to be able to be a part of it thank you oh I'd like to say something about the traffic the concerns about more traffic and that is that many of us who are older have decided not to have cars and just share cars with others and go on group buying shopping excursions down to the mall or whatever so I think that is a consideration and driving in ice and snow is not preferred for us either so that's something we've been talking about thank you very much for listening all right thank you miss jasmine um here our next caller is 519 I'm going to ask you to unmute caller 519 I'm going to move on caller 795 I'm going to ask you to unmute please make sure that you've turned off the live streamer you're going to be about 30 seconds behind whatever I'm saying in your ear caller 795 there you are hello can you hear me we sure can please write your name my name is Megan Williams I live at 1213 spruce avenue yes go ahead miss villains all right thank you I would like to speak to the same kind of concerns that have been already addressed as far as traffic I too think that the projections that they've come up with are really low um I've been living on spruce avenue since uh oh three so 17 years now I've seen incredible increases in traffic on this road since I've lived here um particularly it seems like it really up just after the flood and they did the reroute um because of boston being sort of a mess and they rerouted on spruce and we just got a ton more traffic and it seems to have never gone away ever since um that happened so I think that their projections are really low I also have concerns that that traffic study was done in the summer uh I have little kids and I do a lot of walking and biking um up and down spruce and to feeder street um I would echo the fact that the sidewalks around here are pretty horrible already they're very narrow um they're not well upkept they've um they have hidden corners things like that it's not very good already and with an increase in traffic I've just I've got some significant concerns about that I feel like um spruce avenue is not a good feeder street we keep talking about spruce being sort of the main thoroughfare of traffic it's this street was not intended to be a feeder street for this many people it's not in great shape it does like uh folks said it narrows at one end particularly down by sunset it gets extremely hard to pass people uh down by the multi housing unit close to spruce and sunset um I would echo what was said that you I often probably at least once a day I have to pull over and let somebody pass you cannot have two-way traffic on this street because it is very narrow um the the intersection at spruce and sunset often will get backed up all the way to spruce from the stop sign at third so if I want to take a right or left onto um sunset from spruce I can't even do that because the traffic has already come all the way back down the hill um from that stop sign on third and um sunset so I think that that would get way worse I also um have concerns about that trail going away um we access that trail all the time we we head down to the greenway all the time and that um having not having that feeder to get down there um I'm pretty concerned um that that I do think that that's critical um to making this whole thing happen um I I gotta say that it it sounds like um I was a little disappointed in listening to the presentations it kind of sounds like people's minds are already made up um coming from city staff I would just ask that you continue to listen to your constituents um in this area um continue to listen to our concerns uh I know it's gone through a number of these um these processes already and and I do I do appreciate uh Peter's um willingness to reach out to the community and his transparency I think he's done a great job with that I do think that you have to um continue to listen to the concerns of the public though we've got some pretty strong concerns particularly about the amount of density and traffic and people that it's going to bring to the neighborhood so I appreciate your time thank you thank you miss williams Susan should should we try 519 again we sure can give me just a minute I've got a lot of juggling I'm doing on my end caller 519 let's try you again I'm gonna ask you to unmute can you hear me caller 519 okay I will move on caller 902 I'm gonna ask you to unmute caller 902 there you are hello hi yes we hear you hi um yes I'm at 197 Francis street and your name is Moana Moana Crushwood thank you you make begin okay thank you so similar to the last caller I'm kind of um same topic so I'll try to go through them quickly since they've already been addressed one thing I do I'm very excited to hear about the plans I do want to thank um Peter and his you know the idea is definitely better than it could be other things right however similarly um I live right on spruce um and I have the traffic issue that was just described is unbelievable sometimes I mean there's a retaining wall basically on the north side of spruce almost all the way down to sunset and so people are basically pulling over all the time to get around each other it's like a country road is almost the impact um and then we have a charger school at the end of sunset as well that causes there's drive lines and whatever there's a lot of families that come down I think on sunset so you really can't turn out a lot of times in the morning um and or turn up or down sunset from spruce so I do think it's it really needs to be looked at it's also pretty scary for kids and pedestrians and just across the street is really hard so I am very concerned about the density the high number of units um I really wish it was a world where we didn't have to quite do so many uh I get the pressures but um very concerned about that the other thing I just want to tell you I watch people from my deck watch up and down that path constantly um I really do see a lot more than seven or nine and so that saddens me because I do it's just a really nice place like people are really um walking their pets and looking at the grass and doing stuff I mean I I don't totally agree with that either the numbers but I get you know a study it's just a sample so um the other thing I really do I'm concerned about the architecture which I probably I already came into the office one time and talked to you guys about it but I I do think for people don't live in Old Town I mean I get the modern is on trend and stuff but we don't live here for that so if there's a way to blend it a bit that just would mean a lot to the community I think people don't move here we there's quite bungalows down here so I really don't I don't get that but I love the idea and the concept you know and I think that it's like if there's a way to um blend a bit better and and acknowledge that actually where the neighborhood is that would be really important they think um I think that's the main thing uh turning last let's see I made notes I think that's let's see those are the main things just the density is really high for this little tiny road I mean it's true what the woman said before about the flood traffic I think that it really increased right after that and then people sort of got in habit of going down spruce and it's pretty fast and there's a lot of people and also the shipping shipping trucks too that's all I'd say thank you thank you miss crushwood um Susan I guess we'll go to 90 or that was 902 how about 988 caller 988 I'm going to ask you to unmute hello hello we can hear you wonderful thank you very much my name is Don Russell I live at 207 Judson just about a few hundred yards from the bond farm project I've been going to these meetings now for years and these comments tonight are pretty much the same as have been brought forth before various boards and council for the last at least two years same comments with respect to traffic and density so there's no point in my belaboring what others have spoken of tonight uh the it appears to me at least that planning planning commission and council haven't listened to our comments the citizens comments with respect to the size and the density and the bulk of this project a 46 000 square feet excuse me 46 000 square foot building if i'm correct along the north boundary of this project does anybody there know how big a 46 000 square foot building is that is a big building the current traffic I don't need to speak to except from the standpoint of being a cyclist I ride many thousands of miles a year I ride up and down spruce avenue almost on a daily basis when I come in or go out on the sunset I fear for my life four or five days a week I fear for my life now you could say that's because of the traffic on sunset but it's getting in and out of spruce that scares me particularly with the development right at the intersection there and cars parking on both sides the term for those of us also in the profession of architecture have a term for that the architecture as presented on this project I call them revet boxes after the software that they're probably being designed or developed with revet boxes giant revet boxes especially with considering the type of siding and everything else this project is too big for this neighborhood thank you very much thank you mr rustle susan um guess we're moving on to zero seven three yes caller zero seven three i'm going to ask you to unmute caller zero seven three can you hear me you should be able to unmute yourself i'm going to go on to the next caller we'll get back to you caller nine eight five i'm going to ask you to unmute if you look at your device you should see a pop-up caller nine eight five not sure what's going on share i'll try the next one caller one three one i'm going to ask you to unmute there you go hello hello hi um my name is netty pennman and i live at 609 collier street in longmont and i've lived here for 13 years and i am a member of bond farm community co-housing and i'm calling in support of the project and um i was attracted to bond farm because it's a community built around shared interests of gardening and art and i have worked with clay as a sculptor and a hobbyist potter for the last 50 years and um as i'm aging i realized that sharing what i've learned and sharing my tools and craft are important to me and um bond farm will give me an opportunity to do that and among the current members of bond farm are potters stained glass artists metal sculptors woodworkers jewelry sniffs and others and um i'm excited to know that i hope someday to be living with neighbors who are also artists and want to share and collaborating on art projects and um peter has worked really hard on developing spaces to accommodate working with all different mediums and um encouraged sharing ideas and um plans for making this a reality um we we're planning to have both interior and exterior walls that will be used for display space and um we've planned different rooms of the common space to be used for um art making spaces for kids and adults and they'll be equipped with things and tables and storage areas and lots more display space so um part of being a bond farm member is uh we have different committees within the community and um people who become members are asked to sign up for one or two committees and so i of course signed up for the art team and um currently we're working the art team is working on creating a gate that will be right between the two um condo buildings that are on the north side of the development and the space between that opening between will be a gate that will be hopefully a welcoming focal point and also something that will show a reflective creativity and spirit of the residents and um as a senior who's lived in boulder county since 1972 i'm really hopeful that this development bond farm community will allow me to downsize into a condo and uh still be an active artist and not have to maintain the studio that i've maintained for decades and be able to share space and tools with other people and um so i'm hoping that we i really hope to fit within to the neighborhood and the community and i know peter's making every effort on that front and that's encouraging to me too so um that's about it for tonight okay thank you very much thank you miss benham um susan looks like 318 is our next number caller 318 i'm going to ask you to unmute 318 there you are hi this is charlie watt at 7 9 1 5 neighbor road in nile watt i'm i'm hoping you can hear me okay we sure can i'm a senior okay i'm a senior citizen i live alone at and in my own home and i'm a fiber artist and a gardener and a retired rancher and i moved to my watt because my health was um declining and i'm currently on oxygen 24 7 and um so i i found it impossible for me here in nile watt to continue to garden and raise food that i need to raising and these are things i'm used to doing for 70 some odd years so um i've sort of looked long and hard just trying to say how can i enjoy um all the life and still have a good home grown food and take care of my health and always started to look around and i um you know serendipitously ran across farm and it off you know it sort of gave an an option where i could age in place and do as much of the gardening as i could and when i'm on oxygen 24 7 then not and um i could still partake of the bounty and for me that's really important and i have listened to all the comments of this meeting and i agree with with some on i wish the architecture was more like my ranch home or i've always been really old vintage homes but you know there's i have to look at what what is the most important thing to me now at this age and since the covid outbreak i've been mostly house valid and i'm on oxygen and um also an ox home so i'm at very high risk and i feel on farm would offer that community where i could be supported and not be so isolated and many of us in the baby boom generation cannot afford to go to you know the um assisted living and the things that that offer now and i think that this is an opportunity to offer something to that group that population that need desperately to have some place where they can go and be a part of the community to have people who can care and share shopping and do those things um that's you know that is there is no price you can put on and so um yeah i just i really want to stress that you know hopefully this the covid-19 will pass in a number of amazon trucks and whatever won't be so grand i mean i sit here in my house and i watch and i watch a number of trucks go by i watch what's going on and it's you know it's devastating but that's where we are right now and i think we need options so it's not the time to say oh i wish it didn't have this kind of this or that i really think it's time that we say what do we want to provide to our community and i think this month farm would be an excellent opportunity to provide something for seniors young people people who are interested in the environment people who are interested in good food so i thank you for taking the time to listen to me thank you thank you miss watz appreciate it um susan i think next number is 332 caller 332 i'm gonna ask you to unmute yourself 332 can you hear me hello hello hello yes this is annie brook and i live in uh 4 4 2 5 driftwood place in gun barrel so i'm actually in boulder county and the things i wanted to talk about today and first off i wanted to appreciate long months focus on community when i moved here to gun barrel i was hoping i would be in a neighborhood where i could develop neighborhood friendship and even though there's many people and it's not you know it's not high density at single family homes people don't really uh make an effort to get out and to meet each other because their lives are all everybody's got their own busy life and one of the things i appreciate about the feeling of longmont is you're really working on development that creates community and sustains families and quality of life so in the you know the current situation i've seen huge condo structures popping up all over boulder i live on the outskirts without any concern for the rest of the neighborhood they're popping up into and as i look at things growth is happening and development is happening everywhere my sister lives in portland in the lovely old house neighborhood and the new laws to try to keep up with the need for housing allow any corner lot to build multi unit multi-level condominiums on the corner so there's nothing you know i think what's remarkable and useful for the bond farm is that it is a cohesive total concept design and that's very different than some developer buying the property and building 90 units to try to get as much revenue from as much density as possible now in terms of the concept design and it's not just the buildings that have been built into the concept design but it's the sense of community and one of my focuses has been on all of the community workshops that build a cohesive integrated people connection because there's no guarantee no matter where one lives whether that would actually happen but we have had community workshops which you actually have to attend in order to become a bond farm member and we've had those on permaculture we've had those on art projects everybody's been very involved and requested to be part of the concept design and my good fortune was being able to help support the communication workshops so i was able to bring in skill sets just because of the nature of my work that support people learning how to listen to each other even if you have different opinions and often that's where the rubber meets the road is can you actually function and get through difficulties and we've had two of those workshops with high attendance and the it was remarkable to see the change in view when people have the skill sets and the willingness to sit down and listen to each other and we went through you know one of people's personal emotional impact things is their favorite pets and their dogs and we had everyone lobbying for how the pets would access the property and after listening to the entire group went back and changed our initial decision to include all the members views and to make some restrictions on animal use now that kind of thing doesn't happen if you don't develop a kind of concerning care for others so i understand the bond farm is dropping into a neighborhood that you know it was nice to have four or five empty acres for years and years and the truth is it's now in a transition zone development and my hope is that the benefit of having a cohesive total concept design with a kind of mixed neighborhood is really forward thinking forward thinking for longmont forward thinking for the neighborhood and being able to develop a more sustainable sense of community that is mixed age and also really loaded with green space and that's what i love because i am not someone who enjoys the condos sitting on a post stamp post stamp size acre you know lot where the house is almost bigger than the lot itself and so i'm really appreciative of the the strong effort to listen to the local community and to develop a cohesive concept design and i'm sure that the feedback offered by local neighbors is going to be considered and worked with so i want to thank first off the commissioners for being able to listen to all of us and you know take this in and also for a city that is forward thinking and i know it was a lot of hard work and that the city really put out there uh you know the support for miss miss brugha i i don't i do need to cut it off there um that's all right i've i've spoken enough all right thank you so much okay thank you appreciate it um susan uh i think three five zero is next susan caller sorry i was muted caller three five zero i am going to ask you to unmute three five zero susan that is me jean jasmine i've already spoken okay thank you jean appreciate that caller eight seven eight i'm going to ask you to unmute eight seven eight are you there hello can you hear me we sure can thank you thank you great um hi my name is irine favor i live at 2435 lily court in longmont um this is a brand new just finished condominium for people over the age of 62 it's an age restricted community i moved here from my single family home in old north longmont um primarily because um i was over 70 and maintaining that um property was just getting to be pretty onerous but since i've been here i've only been here for a couple months now but what i really value i mean it's great having no maintenance but what i really value is this sort of sense of community um that is developed among the residents we have about uh 50 uh units in our in one giant building i admit that's pretty dense so um what i want to what i want to emphasize is that that sense of community that is really great for me that i have found so valuable and that other residents here have found valuable is is it really needs to be available to single family um uh to nuclear families as well young people especially when they're moving into a an area like colorado where it's fast growing and um they've left their extended family behind with all that sort of practical and emotional support that it it provides so they that's what's really nice about co-housing because it's really focused on community building i think um annie brook talked about um how important how that's really central that learning to build community is really central to the whole idea of co-housing so i and i really understand that um that people in the neighborhood would love to keep that um five acre lot vacant um but it's zoned um and it's going to be developed um and i would hate to see uh i would hate to see a 90 the the possible density that could be there um i really like the green space of uh of the farm concept and integrating the i've been to um i've i actually am signed up for bond farm um and i really i really like the idea of integrating the trees the the fruit trees and the berry bushes into the landscaping and for the people who talked about losing the path um that might be a misunderstanding um there is no existing path that's going to be taken away uh it was a proposed path that was originally going to be a a gravel path a very kind of rural looking gravel path along one side and then it morphed into this 10-foot wide concrete um monstrosity that um i wouldn't want running through my neighborhood so um i think the proposed path on the other side really is probably a better solution um i hate to see all the growth in a way but it's coming to it's coming to longmont um it's coming this way and i think it's kind of short-sighted if we don't recognize that um and take and take advantage of what's possible instead of letting it sort of roll over us so that's all i've got to say thank you very much thank you miss favor um susan i think we are back to numbers five one nine and zero seven three you are correct before i'm going to unmute five one nine five one nine i'm going to ask you to unmute caller five one nine okay let's let's uh give them let's we'll just have to pass on them i guess okay caller zero seven three i'm going to ask you to unmute caller zero seven three do you hear me caller zero seven three you should see an opportunity a button pop up on your screen five i can hear you so we're going to take caller five one nine and then next will be zero seven three five one nine please state your name and address for the record you may begin yes this is david coddington i live at forty one forty seventeen street in boulder and i am pro bond farm um i have been a 39 year resident of boulder county and i've actually spent some years in longmont as well and i'm planning to live in longmont again in the bond farm co-housing community there have been many changes that um several people have alluded to uh tonight and um i just want to tell you as the design and construction committee chair for bond farm this particular hoa is very unique i i'm also the owner of our roofing and i've seen many hoa construction projects and bond farm is one of a kind um um the developer has been inviting us and i would say requiring us to bring our input um and participate in a big way with this community and um it's rather unusual for for people in our nature way to be so involved um in this way i think this is a really good model for uh for productive citizen citizenry and um i just wanted to share a few thoughts with you we've had uh several seminars uh annie brook touched on one of them um she supported us in the decision-making process and uh her expertise in conflict resolution we've also had seminars on permaculture on site design uh finance and legal to name a few and um i was happy to lead a um a meeting of um i should say a vetting of our interior designers where the entire community was involved um with uh input and and ideas and um discussion with the potential interior designers and then as a group we voted and made a decision about our interior designer this sort of thing doesn't usually happen with an hoa uh we we are very involved we are a very active community it's sort of like a little city within the city and so i i think this is a very unique opportunity um for us to participate in this this modeling also to to be an example for the rest of long month and um i'll just reiterate a few points that have been made already i i believe that the the pathway um that is being proposed to be moved on the east side of the property is a good solution um i also feel that there's there's a thing called budget considerations i know there have been some um some comments about the the architecture and the design and so forth there there are certain things that we have to consider as a group in the design and and if we um if we aren't careful if we aren't careful war over budget and then that puts us into the realm of possibly not being able to deliver on this project and then as others alluded to uh potentially another developer comes in to maximize the property and have many many more units than what we're proposing which is really um it's it's designed to be uh considerate of the neighborhood and much more efficient and and along the lines of permaculture values so um i'm just letting you know that i i think this is a great opportunity for the neighborhood and unfortunately it is inevitable that this land will be developed um uh for for the neighbors that have been there many years i know that these impacts are concerning and i appreciate your concerns we really want to be good neighbors and we're doing our utmost to make this um this co-housing community uh as little impactful as possible on your neighborhood and and actually um be a benefit to the neighborhood um that is what i have to share this evening thank you chairman shernick and commissioners for your time thank you very much thank you mr coddington um i believe susan that that concludes all of our collars you are correct okay we will close the uh public hearing of of this and we will start our our discussion amongst the commission who would like to kick it off now i have okay commissioner height please start why not i always like to go first um overall um mr spaulding i like your idea i do have two questions for you though and i have one for ava as well um but back to mr spaulding um there are a couple of standards that i've been beating myself up and some of uh planning staff over the last two days i'm trying to to to understand in my mind um in particular because you applied under an old code that references an old land use i'm sorry an old um comprehensive plan which comprehensive plan got updated and now you're being reviewed under the old code but the new comprehensive plan um those two have to jive together um specifically under the old code um you are proposing a pudr just to comply with um pudr standards which may cross reference to a neighborhood center um a neighborhood center is a concept that's applied when there's both residential and commercial activities taking place in one pudr um so you're under the old code but the new um land use i'm sorry the the new comprehensive plan envision long month and envision long month states that with respect to neighborhood centers um that abut older and establish less dense neighborhoods um the development of budding the lower intensity established residential neighborhoods should provide a transition in massing and height um and as i look at your plans you're building a your massive structure well your big structure um right up front and personal um across the street from smaller bungalows on spruce street to my understanding um and i see that the rest of your plan has transitions really from the the more dense more intense building on spruce back to less dense properties lower down the hill and away from spruce um so my query to you is could you have flipped that could you have put your sfrs on top of the hill um and had more density at the bottom of the hill did you look at that um to try to provide this transition that you're statutorily required to try to meet yeah our design team did look at that exhaustively in the beginning when we first proposed this project the issue is is that because of the grading you know there's a there's a 35 foot elevation change on the site and how you design the drives it really has an impact on the overall design and what we want to do what colorado cohouse development company wants to do is to create sort of a new type of housing model where we're introducing an economy to the hoa in order to reduce dues so we really need to take advantage of the contiguous land components and because of the grading on the site on the upper level and introducing houses there that's really the steepest level so a normal developer might choose to you know take advantage of the land and to pay the whole entire thing but here with the opportunity of building a two-story structure which um there are many homes along the south side of spruce that have two-story structures we're not exceeding that and we've broken the building apart so we're able to get that underground parking underneath those two stories so that really eliminates we're taking advantage of the natural site it really eliminates the need for spread out parking all over the place otherwise we wouldn't really be able to create a csa and then make it even more challenging to actually develop the park to the east so there are there are a lot of considerations built into that um and that's you know we believe in mixed housing types and a scale of economy so instead of sticking everything into one building we want to be able to have units that are 720 square foot units to 1800 square foot units in the condo building and then our townhomes are in the 2000s and then our four single families are uh 3,300 square foot so with all of that makeup um it was a really big design challenge for us to get to where we were and if you look south go ahead i'm sorry to interrupt you i i appreciate that um i understand that you're trying to put in a mix i'd like you for the mix that you've come up with um can you tell me though why the big building can't go at the bottom of the hill is there a simple answer to that i know that you have design constraints but tell me why you can't why why that can't flip well i think it's it's really the design consideration of the grade and the and the how we're how we're trying to conserve the land so we our goal is to to preserve as much land as possible and to have a minimal footprint that was our intent coming into this whole entire design and when we originally came to the city that's what we came forth with and to flip it around we would actually be we would actually it's i'm not saying that it couldn't be done um but it would be we wouldn't be able to create the co-housing that we're creating for this community as it is it'd be drastically different um there would be very little land uh to cultivate good and our design team felt that this was the best solution and along the way we've we've been supported through the playing department moving forward in this direction you know um i also see that there's a standard that in a mixed use development in a PUD so in the PUD setting um what we need to make sure of is that the commercial and the residential are both benefited the employers are benefited by having residential nearby um and the residents are benefited by having commercial nearby can you briefly say how your plan meets both of those goals well and during our first um concepts amendments or the annexation of agreement amendments when we presented the concept plan we got a lot of resistance from the neighborhood on actually introducing commercials so we've actually and the planning commission in 2016-17 actually was requesting us to do more live work units so that they promote smaller uh businesses so we sort of incorporate the live work concept rather than the commercial concept and i think that that level of integration in that area is appropriate for that neighborhood since it's right on the industrial so in this instance the the employer is the resident and that individual is benefited by being able to work and live in the same year that's correct okay appreciate that thank you very much um miss percheski i have a question for you regarding the timing um concerns that i raised um which are that you know this this project has taken a long time to get to where it is and in my query was whether or not there are standards or limitations on how long you know plans can sit um or what type of activities have to take place before a plan is deemed abandoned um and you pointed me to the right direction that you know it's a 120-day threshold that's somewhat discretionary on the land use and the planning department's director um and you shared with me a letter from February of 2019 where you had set a hard date of august 23rd 2019 for the applicant to respond um when i look through the report that is put together it looks like after this February exchange that your report indicates that in may 2019 a response was forthcoming even though you'd set an august deadline but then your report also says that that second iteration had to have additional work done to it and that the applicant didn't respond for seven months there's a 120-day or four month limitation before the planning director has the authority to deem the application abandoned and in this instance you indicated there was a seventh month time period my question is was there a second letter indicating that you know they were running late again um was anybody looking at you know what happened between May 2019 and whenever this next response came your report says seven months which would have been i guess that's close to December 2019 i don't know what the dates were um but it looks again to have been another significant period of time where you know no response had come um and if if what why didn't the planning director look at that it as an issue of possible abandonment uh chair shernick uh commissioner height so uh what commissioner height is referring to in our in our zoning code in particular the one that we're reviewing this against um reviewing development applications it's very vaguely written but it does say um once an applicant turns in an application and receives feedback from city staff they have 120 days to resubmit their project or the planning manager director at their discretion could withdraw the application the keyword is may do this not shall do this because we try to be fair in the planning department we typically will write a letter to the applicant and say by the way you haven't submitted in 120 days you've got 14 days to get back to us resubmit your project or withdraw and so there was an instance in which mr spaulding lost the initial architect and needed additional time to bid for a new architect and then redraw the plans again he submitted a request in writing and we looked at that and then we sent him back a letter officially giving him the extension there was a second period of time i believe when peter was working through the offsite easement agreements with the other property owners to try and make this trail happen and get utilities um and he gave us something in writing and commissioner height that might have been in the form of an email i was in a rush and of course we're all working remotely i was looking through my file it might be in the office nevertheless we did work that through with mr spaulding evaluated it and determined that he was making a good faith effort at trying to keep the project moving forward by working with the other property owners to try and negotiate easements therefore we gave him an extension of time to get his plans resubmitted into us so that i did understand there was indeed a second letter or a second series of course the second bit of correspondence wherein another request for an extension was requested and granted correct that clarifies a lot thank you no more further questions okay commissioner flagan i have a couple of questions one of them relates to relating of the development across the street to the existing development and i noticed that you've chosen architecture that is not at all reflect what is in existence in the neighborhood and so that has always concerned me that trying to blend in and be part of the neighborhood why you wouldn't have found architecture that was more like what is across the street and the other question i have is in regards to lighting could you describe for me what your lighting is the copy that i've had to look at the lighting isn't clear about full cutoff fixtures and i guess i'm adjusting that to the developer himself sir um alex do you want to chime in on this yes i'll just say a little bit about it um the full cutoff lighting i think is a standard that's been adopted by not only long month but almost every community for full cutoff lighting um i i don't know what that i'm pretty sure that will be implemented um and is pretty standard among all developments as for the architecture um there's a couple ways to kind of approach thinking about this one of the first ways to think about this is what is co-housing community and what is bon farm trying to do and it is something different than a single family house so to signify to signify that we use a different style of architecture if we were doing single family houses we would probably try to blend in or have you seen in prospect um which is a great neighborhood in long month contrasting styles do work in a neighborhood and they do add life in a neighborhood obviously um not everyone is going to like the style architecture that's there there could be a different style of our architecture and i'm sure other people wouldn't like that too um but one of the things that we tried to think about was substance and substance has to do with scale and massing and form and to give some context to this the properties to the north on spruce um have about a 35 foot height limitation that they can have but if you actually look at that street right when you get off of the sidewalk there's a four foot retaining wall going you know vertical and then it slopes up so that slope that on farm is on continues to go up so all those houses are actually at a higher scale than where we're starting that the majority of the building is at 22 feet so the majority of the houses on the north side are actually on basically the second level and then we'd have about a 30 foot street and then we actually widen the street nine more feet to put the parking off to the side so that it wouldn't be squeezed and people wouldn't be having some of these issues so the road is actually getting bigger and parking is moving off the street rather than continuing to be on it and then what you didn't see in the pictures because these were old renderings is because that parking is now parallel instead of perpendicular we now have 20 foot of a greenway that has 15 trees in there so i know you can't hide all architecture with trees if you don't like it but there are more trees than what you're seeing in that renderings um there's about 15 of those and then once we get to the architecture there's a couple things we did with it to address the mass in the scale first horizontally we broke up the building so that there was no kind of there's no section that's longer than 40 foot and there's no section that's longer than 40 foot that doesn't have a vertical break too so not only are there horizontal push pulls but there's also vertical push pulls that bring down the scale um and i think that's lends it to this neighborhood a little bit more the also thing that's kind of deceiving is when you look at the plan and you look at that building the plan looks like it's one huge building but it's actually two buildings that are broken up and it's even hard to tell that in renderings um also but there will be this nice access way to this beautiful park and gardens that are going to be in the back and they'll even be vegetation throughout the whole building so um to to kind of just sum all that up there was careful careful consideration to the mass the scale the sizing and to the reason for the architecture and i do believe that while it doesn't fit in with someone who would want something like what they already have it is proven that contrasting styles can work extremely well in our background of pop prospect neighborhood is a shining example of that i'd also like to um add one more point we are not designing these buildings with timber one of the major issues in the 2000s and through 2010 where the construction defect laws so we're actually building with icf construction which is insulated concrete forms this allows for a very large or high stc rating which is the sound attenuation so our product that we're bringing is not only going to be a very sturdy product but for the residents it's going to be a very soundproof product for each of the units so typically in timber like the houses across the street you might be looking at a 40 stc rating which is really low and you get lots of audibles coming through your walls like cars going by or an ice cream truck or kids yelling you know in the street with our products we're starting off at a 50 52 to 55 stc rating so there's going to be very little sound attenuation coming through the building and between the units themselves and that also goes for the townhomes and for the single families it's also great for the passive solar design that we're incorporating into the site so no none of the structures solar shadow impacts another uh structure which is another reason why we put the building on the north side so sound attenuation for the community is a very high priority like David Cottington mentioned in our workshops we invited with the architect all of our buyers to have input on the site design and we all agreed that we wanted to move forward with icf construction and when you build with that kind of technology there's certain types of you can't really do icf with really dynamic sort of building structures and with what we've done we've put in a tremendous amount of work pushing and pulling on the building and separating it into in order to maintain this icf construction type can you speak directly into your mic because whenever you turn your head you we we lose your your sound i'll do my best okay uh regarding accessibility to your site you have full accessibility to all your parts of your site and then as that relates to i'm not clear what the trail is doing do you have a trail through the site you have a trail adjacent to the site how does that work to get down to the open space that the neighborhood has customarily been able to do so i think some of the neighbors are confused because i have opened up i so people with dogs that walk along spruce avenue i i actually mow about two acres of our field so that they can walk their dogs on our field so people who are on the north side of spruce or people who see people walking on our property that's just on our property there's no there's no current access to isaac walton park or the same frame greenway on the west side there isn't that's that doesn't exist so so what happens then after you do a complete build out yep and people want to access that so the way that will happen is when the city builds its park and the sidewalk is incorporated the little bond farm neighborhood park which is on the corner of spruce and grant it consists of a crushed gravel pathway so the city has asked us to go ahead and put a five foot wide concrete walkway that will connect to grant and then people will walk down grant across first avenue as one of the access points so it's a it's a much better solution because it's an ADA solution that's incorporated whereas if we were to build an ADA pathway on the west side that's north and south because of the elevation change it wouldn't be ADA compatible and if it's concrete in the winter time it just wouldn't be accessible because it ice over and another reason for that is if if the with the existing utility access so there's a power line on the west side that's in boulder county and it also has communication lines if we were to incorporate a trail there they're asking for a 10 foot wide trail that would be concrete and that's where we started running into issues with the homeowners in the boulder county portion who just wouldn't buy into that because when we first came to the table back in 2000 2016-17 we were looking at a crushed gravel five foot wide quaint type of pathway and the neighbors at the time sort of bought into that but when I presented what would have been a code or requested by the playing department it was a it was it was a they just rejected it outright there was no way to get around it so what I did was I invited the Hildebrands who own the property on first avenue which the new utilities that we have to build for stormwater sewer we brought them to to playing department and we met with public works and with the homeowner there we worked on a solution that would be viable for them to give us the requested easement that we're going to need and so it's a it's they they don't want that kind of foot traffic or that kind of structure installed on their site so we worked for something that was still compatible for the city of Longmont but still addressed their needs as well so that was the decision was for us to continue the park on the north side to go only you know maybe 50 feet across the Bon Farm neighborhood to Grant Street and then go down south to make that connection otherwise there are three other connections that are available for pedestrians where they can go straight down spruce and hit sunset or they can go down Judson or Vivian and there's a little section that you can cut across onto the existing trail that will cut into or land onto sunset and you just walk over the bridge into Icicle Park. Thank you. Hey Peter, Steve Ransweiler project manager for public works and natural resources I'm going to help you out a little here a little bit here we would prefer to have the public walk down the west side of Grant Street if we could rather than having a separate sidewalk down the west side of the property that Peter's trying to develop it's less maintenance for the city and it does not it meets ADA accessibility and it's not a just a duplicitous piece of sidewalk that we need to maintain so we're in support of this. I have a few questions so Mr. Gore I think you you answered one of these but I just want to clarify so you said that that the parking along spruce the 18 spaces along spruce is actually going to be spaces that are on your property not on city street is that correct not sorry and Sharon the civil can correct me if I'm wrong I'm just a simple country architect but they're not on this on our property but they're not on the street Sharon you have to unmute yourself hi guys can you hear me so yes the parking is connected to spruce but there's where the property line is in terms of is it we have kept it within right of way so the parking based on its location I need to pull up the plans to really jog my memory but I think based on I see some of the planning staff nodding their head when we revised that it was partially because of some right of way boundaries with the way the parallel parking was going to be partially on the property partially within right of way so we we moved to the parallel parking which was more provides more green space and provides better access to those spaces so essentially we plan for an on-street parking by moving it rather than just keeping the road the same width and people parking there anyways and now you have these one-way stops and people can't get around okay so this leads me to something that I noticed on on your photometric plan which is page 55 out of your 57 page drawing set it looked like some of your photometric levels were not zero on those parking spaces and I'm and we might have to go to one of the city staff to see if that's I know I had to look really closely at that to read those numbers but I'm just curious is that allowable because of the parking being in the right I mean usually we need a zero cut off at the property line and those numbers appear to be non-zero numbers beyond the property line chair sure next sorry I'm going through the old lighting code quickly as we speak oh that's right we're working on the old code yes um so there is yes there is no light trespass allowed in certain parts um if you'll just bear with me I'm looking through the lighting code quickly to find the section um and while she's finding that my recollection is that is actually street lighting for the purpose of that um and because there's I think four street lamp lights for for that reason um but we can also double check with the engineer so the code says sorry Alex so the code says the amount of nuisance glare i.e light trespass projected on to a residential use from another property shall not exceed 0.1 foot candles at the property line so I think when I plan checked it it may have been just at 0.1 nevertheless if it's not you can add a condition if I missed that this would if it were approved and council approves the count the concept plan amendments this would come in for final PUD and then we would do the real tight detailed plan review in which we really call through the lighting plans and the landscape plans for the detail okay um Mr. Gore another another question it's actually page 25 of your drawing set um can you explain how the parking works in the underground garage it looks as though the spaces are stacked if I'm reading it right yes correct um you are reading that right they're tandem parking spots um just like you'd have a tandem garage um obviously it's more common probably in Europe than here but in this co-housing community it's uh something that is more common than in the general public um and then a lot of times too those parking spots were late to a single unit owner um so kind of like my wife boxed me in at my house um it's I end up moving the car anyways but at least it's single family and Peter can elaborate too further if you'd like well I before um let me just kind of expand my question a little bit uh Mr. Gore just just referred to um somebody getting boxed in uh and yes they're all within one household but um Mr. Spaulding you you mentioned during your presentation that that that you expect that that uh um traffic issues will be reduced because uh your uh residents will will not be using as many cars etc but with um tandem parking like this would that actually potentially cause an opposite effect of if if I come home and I see that my my spouse's car is blocking the space that uh you know is further in in that tandem stack um and I have to get out and move that car to put my car in maybe I'm just more prone to just a heck I'll just go park on the street I only have to be here for 20 minutes um so do you see my point that that perhaps the tandem parking actually encourages people not to park in the parking garage it's it seems counterintuitive but um we had a couple you know of course bond farmers had some attrition as far as buyers and sellers coming and going and there's uh uh uh condominium on 17th um and Collier over in that area and there was cells who are members they kind of tandem parking and you simply described that first is well you know at first we thought it was strange but as a couple we were able to work it out um and and it's it's really not a big deal at all and whenever I have buyers who are interested in bond farm and I give them a presentation I always acknowledge to them that if they're interested in a certain unit that this is tandem parking and I haven't had any issues with uh any of my buyers um you know saying well I'm gonna park on the street level um that would be we they know that those spaces that are provided for them are theirs and that they can't take up other spaces within the community because they're assigned and the way you flat out an HOA you have common elements and limited common elements so we would actually be assigning those spaces to those homeowners and those are the spaces that they would have to use okay one more point to that um tandem parking is a problem mainly when you're leaving when you're coming in and you come in or your partner comes in they will pull to the back or else an argument will happen so coming in you wouldn't have that where they pull to the front first just I mean unless you're in a fight and you did something wrong um but that'll probably be rare okay um while while we're talking about parking um with the with the city park being on the eastern edge of of this property um and then you've got the 18 spaces going parallel across sprues what is your estimate as to how visitors to that public park once it's it's built will use the parking and what that public park will generate in terms of traffic I think that we have to look at this as an intent I think that the park is a 0.85 acre park and by the time you get done doing all the auxiliary sort of infrastructural things that you do for a park and from my understanding if Steve wants to speak to this a little bit um they're not so interested in um adding a whole bunch of amenities to the park so I think it's going to be more of a park that is for the residents and Brian Horne had done a pedestrian study a mic request because I needed this will become an issue and with the amount of people that I mean I currently offer our property as a park to the community as I mentioned before so I know that there are about a dozen families that bring their dogs to our site and they walk around uh all the areas that are mowed so I don't see I don't see as a high use as far as traffic incoming maybe there's a barbecue or a gathering or something of that nature I would imagine maybe three or four spaces might get taken up but currently there's you know there's no one who who drives who drives here to walk their dog on my property or anything of that nature so I think I'd leave it to Steve Reinsweiler to if he wants to comment on that to give you further comments okay thank you Mr. Spaulding um Mr. Reinsweiler any any comment on that at all yeah um I agree with Peter that this is going to be a small sort of pocket park it's going to fill a gap that we have in this area of town between Thompson, Roosevelt, Isaac Walton and Sunset Parks where there's folks in this neighborhood who don't have a park within a half mile of walking distance that's that's always our goal and so that's what we're going to be looking to provide for uh the residents of this area and for the city there's always the possibility that people will be coming from outside the neighborhood to um to be you know coming to use this park but I don't anticipate that being a large traffic generation generator as after we develop this park okay great thank you um uh this might be a question for Mr. Gore now um with the landscape buffer uh request which which you have as part of this proposal um I believe it's building E uh the the single family house that encroaches by like 28 square feet um why not just change the size of the house what what what precluded you from meeting the requirement by pulling two walls in and and changing the house yeah so the house is excuse me is actually a mirror of two other houses so just like the triplex is a mirror of other ones and so is um a bunch of the units in the in the big building so to shorten to change that building there's a domino effect so just moving in one wall four feet or five feet in a house is actually a is is a huge deal because you have to then re-change that whole room and if you re-change that whole room it changes the whole relationship with the room next to it then you have to do a completely different design and that really messes not only with the efficiency of construction and then the prices that you can offer these nicer homes for a lower price but then also it it hurts with selling because now you're giving now there's a house that's a little bit less for whatever this reason um that that when you think about the trade-offs where there is that extra 15 feet on the other side it is boulder county land the purpose of the landscape buffer is being met it's a small trade-off from the cities from what will you feel the city perspective because we're feeding we're we're filling those needs and it would actually be a larger than than originally thought trade-off for us to make those uh interior changes okay thank you um uh oh this might actually be for you as well uh mr swanson in the public hearing um talked about his question was um for the residents that about the property uh is there any plan for a screen or a fence and what's do you know what side he was talking about because i thought he said the north i don't know which side but what what what let's just look at your property as a whole what what what plans exist for any sort of fencing or screening right so for the north side i think i went through the road and the setbacks and the landscape buffer and all that um for the other sides i'm trying to bring it up but jamison actually who's on the field is our landscape architect i don't think there's a natural fence i think the landscaping is used as a fence um and then the park the park is abutting most of the neighbors to the east side so that will be a large area and i believe that they probably already have fences um there also just to add i believe we are showing a fence between the park and the property on the east side correct correct so there is a fence there and if you i'm having uh one of my associates zoom out um on the west side there is a lot of landscape trees and buffers and also on the south side too and i believe that those neighbors have fences down there peter um live i i can i can talk to this um so i believe the person in question it lives on the east side of the property and the park would actually be um the park extends to their property so there'd be a fence along there and then the the gap where the at the south side of the park to the south side of our boundary the residences already have fences um the the two on the south side of our property there are cul-de-sacs those cul-de-sacs um we actually have to berm up the land so the burming of our land would actually be a fence for them on the west side of our property there's the whole entire um the existing utility easement uh so there's a 15 foot wide buffer between us and the neighbors um in general um co-housing for us you know we're not really in defences we're really into landscaping a lot more um we want to take advantage of the land um and we think that by providing all of the green space that we're providing that the landscape architecture that the people will be looking onto it's going to be a lot nicer than an actual fence um it's a debatable uh topic but um you know if there was if there was a property owner on the west who wanted to see a fence we would certainly work with them to do that we're not opposed to it but we believe in sort of an open site uh we don't really believe in fences um we just don't think that they're necessary but there's a lot of natural barriers that are in play um that I think address those concerns okay um I have a question that's that's sorry I'm hogging all the questions everybody but um it's probably for Ava um uh the Ava the the applicant has said in their presentation that they would be willing to formalize in their declarations what businesses would not be allowed in the live work spaces um when when would that be done is that something that needs to be made of a condition now um what what would be the proper process to ensure that that happens yeah Chair Schoenig um is it your discretion uh if you'd like to add conditions that they put restrictions on the type of businesses on the cover page of the PUD that's certainly at your discretion um the I kind of went through those allowable uses in the staff report but these are live work units so we would expect things such as one one person offices right a lawyer therapist uh you know whatever type of offer consultant um potentially a yoga teacher uh something of that nature um that's what we anticipate uh a neighborhood serving use and so those would be the kind of things we'd monitor and track from a business license standpoint but if there are certain uses that you want to absolutely make sure are prohibited you can certainly do that at your discretion okay all right thank you um the rest of my questions focus on uh all of the uh the traffic issues um so if another commissioner wants to jump in with you know before we get into traffic uh Commissioner Pullin thank you um just a couple questions here since we're still uh looking at the land Peter just a quick question is the is it more steep on the north side as then as it gets less steep as you move to the south is that true that's true and I just want to address one more thing about that um and this goes to um Commissioner Hyde one of the reasons why it took uh there was a long span in our uh submittal process was because in our second response back to the city the new code uh and this is the fire department related our first responders they we went from a 10 to a 6 so that really lifted the the the amount of infill that we now have to bring into the site which is a significant amount in order to make that drive we once we found that out we negotiated with the fire department um Captain Michael and she agreed that we could do eight percent so whenever whenever with that gray change it actually elevates the land and certain parts of our site become actually more steep and harder to access so that's one of the reasons why we had the delay is having to readjust all of our building footprints and height elevations and that was a very enormous challenge so right now we're working with an eight percent grade for our private drive and then it gets a little bit steeper in certain sections which is the reason why we have all the buildings on the south of the drive sort of acting as a barrier to the land which is which is the reason why I exist you can think of it as a big wall retaining wall holding back the land so that we can have these walkout basements in the farm section so it's steep in one section then it you know it's it's an eight percent grade and then it gets a little bit steeper in order to access the farm and then the farm area is a little bit less sloped Peter if I could if I could chime in this is Sharon so I'm I work with JVA we're the civil engineer one of the other pieces about this site that's very important is we're providing detention and water quality for the entire development not within the farm but separate from the farm and based on the lay of the land you want that detention and water quality to be at the downstream end of the site which is the southwest corner so moving the buildings around or shifting where certain buildings are makes the location for that drainage and the tension more challenging to be able to capture all the runoffs so this staggered approach that they've taken with the highest density at the north and then gradually tiering allows for better water quality and low impact development design in how we've laid it out and that's one reason why we didn't move that's one reason why the main condo building isn't on the south side of the site as well you mean the north side right we located the condo building on the north side because on the south side you can run into so so many issues okay and then during the presentation it was mentioned that there wasn't going to be a farmers market because it's kind of like anti-CSA I was just wondering if you could give a quick 30,000 viewpoint of really what's a CSA what that means so a community shared so old in farms has a 10 acre CSA farm where you put it in an order you may pay 750 dollars annually and you'll get a food fair and you can go buy and pick it up and they'll call you when to pick it up for the community what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a business model for the community in order to reduce the cost of HOA due monthly dues which is a significant problem I think across the nation you know and as we see the disparity levels between the wealthy and the middle class I think people are starting to search for more efficient housing types so if we can build business models into co-housing communities where they're actually generating revenue whether it be through associate memberships or the residents themselves that's what we're trying to do so that we so that we're actually making a successful organic farm to table and then the community members as well as the associate members will be able to take advantage of those food shares so we're looking to hire a farm intern or a woofer and we have a space designed for that individual to live on site and we have an office for them in our underground barn with a root cellar and greenhouse so that's sort of the game plan for the long farm co-housing community does that answer your question I guess so would people be able then to like call in orders for food to pick up instead of just going like a farmers market it would just be an associate membership it wouldn't be open to jump right so you you wanted if you were a neighbor in the neighborhood and you wanted to be an associate member to bond farm maybe it'd be a 1500 annual do you'd get you'd be able to participate in a food share and then you'd also be able to participate we're going to have a commercial grade kitchen so you could envision us having a chef stay for the weekend and uh we have cooking lessons or cooking workshop and there might be some sort of wine pairing or taste pairing and the associate membership the associate members will be able to participate in that maybe there's an art function or music function so that's the intent okay thanks other questions commissioner how you ever started you raised at the underground barn um what is that so the underground barn is uh under the private drive and there's a piece that comes out of it and it's the witch shop metal shop and then we have a walk-in cooler root cellar uh that we're going to use for the storage of all of our produce so I was looking um vigorously to try to find the plants and specs for that thing in your plant set and it's not there is there a reason it isn't there uh you should be able to see it in uh towards the end Al can you look up what page that is on the PUD yes um so it is on the site plan um we're getting the page as we speak um I saw it on that one of the site plans it's in between building F and G oh I've seen where it's located between F and G um I've just never seen that the plan for the build right and in typically what what's actually um different about site plan review so we work in a bunch of different cities some CDs will scold us for putting floor plans in there they actually don't need to see or floor plans aren't required so that's one reason I I think we you know we put the housing in there just for this one but a lot of times floor plans in a site plan review uh situation like this aren't required and we we often get yelled at so that's why they're not in there and I frankly would tell you I honestly don't know if um all my requires that you present that or not my query is though it does go underneath that road correct that's correct okay and it's not part of the maker spaces that are in buildings F and building G correct yeah so that's not part of F and G it's right so G building um or building F shares the foundation for the greenhouse and that wall again this is sort of creating that large retaining wall that's sort of behind the design concept um and so we've inserted the uh the the wood shop in the uh root cellar underneath the road and then we have a portion there where there's a walk downstairs and then it wraps around a little space that will provide a bathroom in an office for uh the farmer and missioner height um look at page 10 of their drawing set um and they have an indication of the barn below on the I've seen a lot of the barn below I've just never seen the barn below yeah and the only other on sheet seven you can see a section cut through it and the stairs so you can see the road is above it below the road um is that is the barn and then the stairs allowing you to go down to the farm and it's on the lower drawing not the upper drawing right and then sheet five of 57 which is the rendering yeah you can see the stairs in the office it's right there where the underground barn is but then it extends north underneath the roadway that's correct sure so even my question to you is does that need to be set forth on these plans do we need to look at that do we care about that or is it just something that comes in later uh commissioner height it's not required and uh Alex is correct we typically ask applicants to leave those level of detail for the building permit plan set after a project's approved very well thanks to review floor plan just the site plan thanks commissioner Goldberg yeah thanks chairman thanks to the rest of the commission for uh some great line of questioning that makes the job easier for the rest of us um well I think without further ado I'd like to bring Tyler Stavey uh into the discussion who's waited patiently um as we all know we need to make sure that the traffic isn't adversely impacting the neighbors and there's been no shortage of concerns about the traffic impact uh going as far back as 2017 when this was first brought to the table and as recently as today by a few members of the public John Pilliman, Megan Williams, Milana, Crushwit forgive me if I mispronounce any of those names but Tyler in the packet it says here that our city traffic team you and your team approved the traffic study that was submitted for this project but everyone is convinced that all the public is convinced that your that the impact to the neighborhood is going to be great and there's no way that we can only see 30 or 40 more routes in the morning and in the evening during the peak time so I wonder if for the sake of anyone who's still listening if you could just walk us through how those studies are done is doing a study in one day acceptable do we is it an issue if it's done in the summer versus when the schools are open maybe just school is all a little bit on traffic studies and why these numbers shake out to being lower than we expect. Sure Chair Sherman, Commissioner Goldberg as we look at these traffic studies prior to sending the applicant on their way and doing a study we meet with the applicant to make sure that we have sufficient scope to cover what needs to be covered in the traffic study you know generally per our code we typically don't require studies for developments that generate less than 500 trips a day this is one with some of the history that we've seen on this property being in front of this commission before we know traffic was an issue and a concern therefore we did require additional look at the traffic on this one you know that in terms of how we generate those trip numbers when what we're looking at we're following data published in Institute of Transportation Engineers they have a manual where it's a library of data points that have been submitted it's it's an average it's not obviously it's not perfect but it's it has a pretty high confidence rate when we look at particularly residential generally has a pretty good high regression when you look at the rates the number of trips generated per unit or it's pretty pretty close it's probably the most studied trip generation that we have and I think you know what we're seeing in this 378 trips a day is in line with what we'd expect for this level of development typically multifamily generates fewer trips per day than single family detached housing I think there is adequate capacity which is borne out in the capacity analysis provided in the traffic study there's adequate capacity on the road and the intersections both on a daily basis and in the peak hours I think that there are some changes that have been made since this was last before you I think one of the concerns that I remember I was I was talking to you guys about this before when it came through one of the concerns was that angled parking that was proposed prior and I think that was noted as a concern I think the applicant's doing a good job of addressing that concern we've also asked the applicant to provide a slow point on Spruce Avenue which I think is a concern we heard from the residents that's a comment staff has been consistent in asking and I think I heard the applicant say tonight that they're going to do that do I miss any parts of your question or anything else you want to know about no I think that's a pretty good summary excuse me it sounds like first your team evaluates that the right content is provided in the study and the traffic study met that burden you're utilizing formulas from manuals that are proven you have high confidence in those formulas this isn't just something that the City of Longmont created this is these are manuals that are utilized across municipality municipality I would guess because there's an emphasis these multi-family properties tend to create fewer trips there's there's adequate capacity in your experience the applicant has made some changes to the to their project removing angled parking for example that will help that traffic flow better and they've applied the slow points or you know any mitigating factors that you've suggested or that would be required many of the applicants mentioned that it's impossible for two vehicles to use to pass each other without one pulling over to the side and you know letting another one come through um is that a concern is that taken into consideration in your study what can you tell us about that chair shernick commissioner goldberg so one thing about that so it looks like when i'm doing some measurements here on google earth it looks like the cross section on the road is about 30 feet so uh yeah that is going to be tight when you have parking on both sides of the street for sure um one of the other things that does I think we also heard concerns about speed and we also heard can we also heard several people say you have to stop and wait for someone to pass by so um with that congestion with that parking it also does mitigate some of that speeding it doesn't really make it possible to speed if you have that condition so um probably not the preferred condition if we were building this new the the road would be wider reality is this is a relatively built-out area and I don't think winding is an option without the homes are pretty close to the the street so I really don't think winding is an option any other options in terms of adding bike lanes or providing additional travel lane widths would require some removal of parking Mr. Spaulding maybe there's a little give and take there um I guess my last question I'm sorry chairman did you did you need hey Mr. Spaulding wanted to add on to Tyler's comment there yeah so a lot of the neighbors were describing the conditions that were at the end of spruce and uh sunset so you don't really get that condition where you have to pull a little bit of cars passing by in front of our property because on the north side the parallel parking is set into the row so we're actually changing the curb the curb actually comes in nine feet goes traverses across the north side and then comes back up nine feet so that two cars would still be able to easily pass through even if there's a car parked on the north side of spruce parallel does that make sense and this is along your front and you're able to do that with the property that you have you can do that to get away from your property we're still stuck with the same we have the same cross section great okay yeah thank you for all of that um I get my last question Tyler before I open it up to the rest of the commission is speak to the concern that I think John Pillman and Megan Williams raised about the study being done in the summer when kids are at a school there's less you know parents taking their kids to and from school school buses and that impact is that a factor when we're reviewing a study do you have any perspective on how summer traffic flow differs from traffic flow when schools are in session sure that's a valid comment I think that the magnitude we're talking about here in terms of are we going to see capacity are we going to see the system break if we have some additional trips for school reality is those additional trips are not going to break the system it is more likely that yeah they're generally we see traffic volumes go up during school um you know we're kind of in a weird situation right now where I think a lot of the counts had to do with timing of when the applicant needed to wanted to submit they had older counts from a previous version which were too old to use we wouldn't accept the older counts from the previous time they did the traffic study they had a submittal deadline that they were trying to meet and any additional counts we do right now are sort of influenced everything's kind of weird right now with with the pandemic going on so um would it be better to count during school yes school's not in session right now so we really can't quantify that right now yeah thanks Tyler a quick check back at the deck at our packet shows some feedback from the school district suggesting they estimate a total of 10 additional students to be generated from the project uh and mentioned that the adjacent schools would be a little accommodate that so maybe if the projection from st. Rain Valley school district is only 10 students um you know I wonder if we can comfort the public that's concerned about that difference between when the when the study was done by using the evidence provided by the school district that actually we're looking at potentially 10 so i'm at a student maybe that will help Brian Hurran looks like you had your hand up yeah I um I appreciate um all that Tyler I would like to also add um you know ideally we would take counts but Tyler's correct we were on a specific schedule um the city asked us to do um ADT counts along Spruce and Sunset as well which the city has published uh weekday um ADTs so we were able to compare the ADTs that we counted with the you know kind of like normal ADTs and we found that they were consistent along Spruce um and that actually our uh counts were a little higher on Sunset so we uh which we would have done anyway but we included a factor of growth along Sunset to account for that this uh different so we did compare the counts that we collected uh against existing data just to make sure it passed this you know uh sniff test of whether or not the data was accurate okay thanks Mr. Hurran Chairman I'm good okay um Commissioner Hurran I don't have questions but I have a series of comments I'm gonna just jump in you know we talked about the criteria of mutual support between commercial and residential uh Commissioner Hyde brought that in uh I'd like to add to that that you know having smaller multiple businesses means you're gonna have a diverse set of services available in your community and that's the best support mutual support between residences and the commercial which is happening in this particular community not only that the likelihood that that's going to reduce the trips is going to be high I want to add to that one more item you know some of the one of the uh commenters uh mentioned that this committee gives more reason for residents to stay more time in place that means less trips out of the community every endeavor you're dealing in the community means you're avoiding one other errand whatever that may be if this was a dormitory place that is only housing you go there to sleep that means for every other endeavor in your life you're going somewhere and driving so that gives me confidence about the you know reduced traffic uh we talked about you know the big building being up on the north I was really surprised that you know Mr Gore said this is contrasting well actually when you look at the massing there are a lot of breaks in the massing and the massing itself not architectural style maybe but massing fits and does everything to fit in to this particular community in terms of the intervals you see on the facade so yes it's a big building but it's not one of your you know 24 places you see everywhere is a big wall you know this is a very different kind of an attitude trying to really break and and that break is not very artificial it's because it's coming from what's behind the breaks that is you know there are very different kind of units coming together and businesses coming together so that creates an interesting diversity um I relate to uh Chairman Schoenig's worry about you know what if you don't use a tandem parking and go park on the street but at the same time these are covered parking why would you go park in the snow if you have a garage you know garage is a luxury you know it's like I wish I had a garage I'm putting my car there so that kind of thing so uh that kind of balances and I'm not that very different it's an inconvenience maybe but it's a preferred inconvenience but I don't think anybody is gonna park on the street and walk all the way down and leave that space the other part of it is that you know maybe there's a possibility of some of the tandem garages would be used for storage and such and that happens everywhere you know it doesn't matter if it's tandem or not if you have double car garage people tend to put all the junk and then park on the street but in the co-housing community there's internal control neighbors control each other if you junk up your place somebody's gonna you know you're having dinner together right they're gonna say hey what you're doing so there's that uh the interesting we're talking about the narrow streets and such you know Boulder went through all sorts of arguments and adopted 30 feet curb to curb both side parking as local street standard it's in the books now the reason is that it's the best traffic control mechanism you go slow you don't speak and then you don't need the speed bumps and all that stuff you know the Tyler mentioned that already I don't want to go into too much detail of those uh at the end of the day you know I sympathize a lot of the worries of the neighbors and our job is kind of tough we need to balance that with the long-term interest of the community and what is best for community at large in the future that's kind of the question we ask and we have the comp plan to help us because comp plan as the same question what is the best thing for the community in the future and but I usually read the comp plan and try to understand why do they say that well there's a reason behind it and in this particular case you know especially encouraging the diversity of businesses and diversity of lifestyles that is the unit types you know we had this discussion in a couple of other projects you know people come in at 50 exactly the same plan duplex this is the exact opposite of that that is to say as much as diversity you can have in a community this size so that's why I really respect the concept and the proposal on hand and I what I would say to the neighbors you know I sincerely believe that at the end of the day you're gonna benefit out of this the most in the future there's gonna be a time you're gonna say good thing this thing came to my neighbor next door because I have all these benefits now yes there are some worries the traffic you know nobody wants a whole bunch of people move next door but in this particular case maybe it's a good thing for you that's my message to neighbors and obviously I'm supporting this project and oh one more thing the encroachment to the buffer I don't buy Mr. Gore's argument that oh it would be so hard to change the building it wouldn't be hard and building being a unique building is more value but there's the other side of the argument so what it encroaches you know is it against the intent of the buffer when I look at the site plan well it's not a big deal it's just a tiny little area and then there's a lot of trees around it so so that's my attitude towards that as well because you know I can you know say you know we're not here to torture people right so so that's my conclusion and I support the project thanks um just one thought about about the encroachment into the buffer and and Mr. Gore's explanation I look at that as as we're getting a lot of open space benefit way more open space than than what this project normally requires and um he's also he mentioned the efficiency of keeping that one building that one house being a mirror of another house and that should a little bit keep the the price down um so in our efforts to try to find more attainable housing and and more affordable housing anything we can do to keep the price down is probably a good thing in this day and age so I would definitely support the uh the modification on the on the landscape buffer any other comments or thoughts from other commissioners about this Mr. Spaulding I saw you had your hand up were you wanting to respond to something yeah I just um it's in thank you Corkett for your comments and for yours as well um it's there aren't so ICF construction is a relatively new model that's coming um to the market and it's becoming um it's being popularized because it's such a good building product um there aren't that many just this is just a bit of trivia there aren't that many construction crews that specialize in ICF construction and when you start altering the plans for the ground crew that's on-site to have to build all the scaffolding and to actually work with concrete in that sense it does add a significant amount of uh cost and while this might not seem as much it would sure uh be a lot more expensive than it would be for timber built structure I just wanted to put that in as a bit of trivia about ICF construction versus timber okay thank you uh Commissioner Hyatt yeah sensing that there's a motion coming we'll throw in my last two cents um I would also say to the community at large that the traffic um no seeming problematic um from what we have heard and seen it still meets standards um to which I would add it could be worse this is approximately two-thirds of what could go in to this um to this site is what's being proposed in terms of development units or dwelling units um so it could the traffic could have been a bigger issue the encroachment issue um I also feel that there have been mitigating um design components have been thrown into this project that that uh mitigate that encroachment issue the problem I had with the neighborhood center requiring a transition from an established neighborhood to a more um dense um design um I still have a problem with the fact that you know on the north side is where this the the bigger massive building is being presented um though I will note that the standard is auditory and not mandatory the words are should um and what Mr. Spargin explained that the from a design and architectural standpoint um dropping the massive building down lower just didn't work um I think convinces me that you know they should he can't meet so I too am going to be in favor of this project thanks um commissioner pollen then commissioner flake then commissioner golbert okay I found my mute button um I guess as as we're starting to build towards this there are a couple of conditions that have been well one's been mentioned it um and going through things I'm wondering if we need to add one another one so I'm wondering it says that they are still working uh looking for the legal paperwork for the path and I'm wondering if we need to put that as a condition they said that they are working with I think it's the held it brands and that there's legal paperwork going on but it hasn't been acquired yet peter that's correct so we've been in negotiation uh with the Hildebrand family with mark van Wagner who is also impacted and then there's another property directly to on the very southwest corner um all I've worked with them all and they're all in support of the new design that we have but we can't do the legal paperwork until we have the site plan review you're basically you're and the city council's approval that this is the direction that we're going to go for so that we can actually draft that paperwork so I believe that for final pv approval in the entitlement process when we do the site work and the actual construction of the buildings that there will be language somewhere by the city attorney that states that uh you're not going to get a final CEO a CEO certificate of occupancy until you have uh worked out these agreements with your neighbors on those easements and that we would have to have that done prior report doing our site infrastructure work because the new utilities that were bringing in our stormwater and sewer so that is at the very top of our agenda but we need we need to know that what we're giving to them as legal documents with the design work which would be part of those legal dot design work and negotiation of what the value is that they're giving to us for that new infrastructure that needs to happen after uh city council approval and and and uh this and the commission okay ava are you still there ava i'm here uh can you clarify what he would uh peter just said about whether or not it'd be necessary for us to add language to get the uh uh to make a condition on the uh legal paperwork for the path um do you agree with peter that at this time that's not necessary i don't think it's necessary because the uh comprehensive um concept plan amendment before you is saying that they're not providing the pedestrian path on their site and through other properties what they're requesting in their pud plan is that uh residents use the public streets that exist currently either going down uh sunset street or one of the streets toward the the east uh to get down and then across uh to isaac welton park in the greenway so i don't know that it's relevant uh to condition i'm not really certain about what legal paperwork um peter's working on or if this relates to utility easements which is a completely separate matter from this trail connection and that's something that would be required with their public improvement plans and their final pud um and chris huffer from public works is here to talk about any or answer any utility questions okay and then i guess the other condition that's kind of been bantered around is if we want to put any kind of limitations um the businesses that would go there it's been kind of banter i don't know if anybody has thoughts about that so i'll throw that out to the commission um given the fact that these are going to be roughly 600 square foot of off i'm going to say commercial office space um i'm not really worried about too much about anything big like a liquor store or anything going around um i don't know if i'd even be worried about dispensary because you know one man kind of monitors the number of dispensary so we have uh but i'm wondering if anybody has any concerns and uh would like to put any kind of condition on the type of businesses that would go in commissioner honor regarding to that i have a question for peter uh what's the control mechanism do you have within the uh hoa i mean within the co-housing for the businesses do you have a control mechanism among your neighbor among your members for the type of business that can come in yeah we're writing into our hoa declarations that the there would be no payday loan there there are certain businesses that we've identified that we'll write into our hoa declarations that will not be a part of our development in the community you know through our various workshops the community members all agree to that because we want businesses to come in that complements what it is that we're offering as amenities so a farm or table artistry you know uh uh psychotherapy massage therapy um could be you know there's a couple buyers within the development um david coddington a roofer and myself that would like to possibly uh create an llc so that we could purchase one of those units and put our offices in there um so there are strategies like that that we're deploying within the community um but as you know the h-ray declaration uh we don't formalize that until 75 of the community has moved into their units where they finally sign off on everything so during the construction process we'll even get more uh into detail about what that hoa declaration looks like and then we'll submit that and get it recorded with the city commissioner flake so sorry thank you um my question was in regards similarly to the uses but my question was really um can there be changes to the spaces that you're allocating for live work can two of them join together to me made into a larger space and the other part of the question was um since we don't have a floor plan of that underground barn um you have i think i recall woodshop and roofing or something in there i don't know what the square footage of that area is allotted um and so my question is that is it possible to expand that and i don't know maybe ava has a a bearing on can be licensed to go in to the barn area as far as roofing or um woodworking kinds of a business did you want me to address that anyone who you've gotten the answer to so um the underground barn is i believe uh they're going to be uh about 800 square foot total so the root cellar and walk-in cooler is one section and then the other section would be the the woodshop so they're about 20 by 20 spaces um 1200 square feet correct sorry 1200 square feet for the barn thank you and then for to address your question regarding the live work units whether they could be combined um those units are probably going to sell in the $400,000 range and we're really interested in keeping them as single units the idea of combining them um and getting uh close to 2000 square feet would be uh you'd be looking at a million dollars probably by the time you got done building the architecture but we are uh we in the PUD planet states that we have 46 units and combining two those would reduce it to 45 and i don't believe that that that would work out okay with the city Commissioner Goldberg thanks chairman uh quick before my earbuds that i am in here um you know i guess uh i think first addressing Commissioner Poland's question about do we feel inclined to list what sort of businesses should be permitted or restricted from the neighborhood i'm not inclined to take on that endeavor i'm not sure i'm not sure i feel like that's our job to do i'm not harboring any concern about it and i think if we kind of let it ride that will take care of itself but with that said i guess i'm inclined to put forward a motion and i'm not going to see any hands jump up at you know concern about that but i'll just throw it out there um for the following reasons one because um in our packet the city staff identified how the applicant met the review criteria won't list them out but our packet identifies how each criteria has been met additionally i always look favorably upon applicants who respond to feedback from the community who engage with the community who solicit feedback and then and then make changes as a result so i appreciate that from uh mr. Spalding and the rest of his team but additionally beyond that we did have our fair share of concerns raised by the public but there was also a lot of positive feedback from the public that really resonated with me um i can list just a couple of them uh gene jasmine mentioned agriculture animals and art we know what a what a neat um way to summarize uh your her perspective on this community and and i'm inclined to do anything that i tend to help enable that to come to our to this town that we love so much um forgive me uh netty pinman mentioned wanting to be surrounded by fellow artists a community of artists and that resonates with me um surely what surely what again forgive me for any mispronunciation says that she likes the idea of aging in place with a garden and the support of her community and she sees that in long month more so than our neighboring communities and if we can nurture that and enable that here you know in this format then i'm inclined to do so uh annie said mentioned the sense of community but also mentioned that um this is forward thinking and and i i'm aligned with that we we have plenty of you know traditional projects popping up all around and we're inclined to approve those as well but there's something special about this application and and so um maybe i'll finish with that and so given with that reasoning i'm inclined to recommend excuse me while i read pdr 2020 dash 5b uh and maybe i should just read it to get it right um conditionally approve the bond farm co-housing community preliminary pud contingent on city council approval of the concept plan amendments to remove that pedestrian trail and recommend approval of the bond farm annexation and rezoning plan um amendment application to city council finding that the review criteria had been met by 2020 dash 5b thank you commissioner goldberg uh we have a motion on the floor to approve 2020 dash 5b um i would like to ask you if you would be willing to slightly amend it for a condition that i would like to see which is um to add a condition that the applicant will work with city staff to ensure that the photometric plan meets code standards because looking closely at the drawing i'm not convinced that it does but i'm also confused as to exactly what needs to be done to meet the standard so just in a caution of abundance to make sure the photometric plan meets standard are you okay with adding that to to your motion uh sure chairman yeah happy to do that um so i think taking the motion that i mumbled out a moment ago and adding in that the applicant worked with the staff uh to ensure that the project meets the photometric standard yep if that means if that means the burden then i'm comfortable with it okay then i'll go ahead and second your motion um do we have any further discussion commissioner uh commission polo let me sure thank you um i just want to say that i am in favor for this um i do find that this meets 1502040 items a through e and 15050.f.4 items a through c it does seem like the biggest issue um that were two that were mentioned multiple times one is the traffic uh we went through that um i am pretty confident that uh in the whole scheme of things that this isn't going to add uh a exorbitant amount of traffic to the area i think that uh the majority of these people are probably going to be the type of people who don't make many trips um so uh i don't believe that the traffic is going to be a huge concern for the surrounding area the other one uh that was mentioned a couple times is architecture um i do agree i believe it was alex who said that you could come up with several different designs and whatever design you're going to come up with at some point somebody is going to have a problem with it i'm not going to try to micro manage the designs um i think it's a good design i think when i look at it as a whole project as it goes from spruce on down to the south and it goes into the farm area that they have i think it's a well-defined uh plan um i don't see any big problems with it could you get a little picky about things maybe but that's not what we're here for i think overall it's a good plan the architecture seems solid so i'm in favor for this and i just want to kind of get that out all right great um all i have my two cents which is uh i uh will echo commissioner on around and goldberg and poland's comments um but i'll summarize it with um i think miss brook um her statement that this is a cohesive total concept design that is what puds are supposed to be puds are supposed to be something that is better uh overall than what we could get through the standard development process and i believe that this project meets that any further comments commissioner goldberg yeah one last one thank you i'd be remiss if i didn't mention there was one or two concerns uh raised by the public neighborhood feedback i think that identified concern that perhaps this commission had made up its mind before arriving today are and citing an example of unsigned approval documents as being included in the packet as an example of how the decision was made before we logged in today and i just want to make it abundantly clear that the reference i can only imagine the reference to the unsigned approval document has to do with the three resolutions that are provided in our packet and there's a space at the bottom for a signature and it's important to for the anyone who's reading that those because it is a little bit confusing they all read approval of approval of approval of version a b or c but um but just a point of clarification a is approval as is uh and and that would give um chairman schoenach the opportunity to sign on that line um option b would be approval but with a condition like we did here this evening and uh chairman schoenach will can will proceed to sign on that line if the vote passes and then lastly option c is approval of a denial or approval of not approving the project uh and a place for the chairman to sign there so i just want to be abundantly clear that um there's no the decision hasn't been made before we gathered tonight uh the the documentation in the packet is confusing but um we come in here ready to make the decision based on the evidence set before us and the testimony before us so uh with that i'll sign off thank you for that explanation commissioner gallberg um completely agree so let's take a vote on our motion all those in favor raise your hand any opposed um okay jane it is uh unanimous and it looks like we lost commissioner tedda or he's here but i don't see his his video commissioner tedda what is what is your vote yes there's a there's a little error on the right hand side yes i see him now he he he went on to the second page so is that a yes vote commissioner tedda it is okay and sing has how it's unanimous seven to zero um i won't call for no votes um so that passes um let me read this um this item will now be forwarded to the long month city council for action if you're unfamiliar with council procedures and intend to appear before council please contact the planning division for further information at 303-651-8330 okay um we still have another agenda item yeah and chairman churnick we are i think running up running against the magic hour exactly uh our bylaws uh have a rule oh let me uh do this before we get into our housekeeping mr spaulding mr gore um mr uh haran on mr brown uh miss procopio um thank you for being here uh and helping us uh look at and analyze your project tonight um best wishes to you um thank you for your help ava getting us through uh the application and all of the details we need to uh do some housekeeping here um we have a bylaw that says that that uh we cannot go past 11 o'clock in our meeting unless we have a motion to do so um do i see a motion from any commissioner uh commissioner tedda yeah i'd like to make a motion that we continue and address uh item number two okay commissioner pollin i'll second that motion okay motion to continue past 11 o'clock has been lodged and seconded all those in favor raise your hands and say aye any opposed okay that passes unanimously we will continue past 11 o'clock it is 10 50 right now i think we could all take a 10 minute break we actually need to change up some of the staffing um uh somebody's gonna call city attorney eugene may and uh get him to attend our meeting so we need a little time to do that um we'll see yes chairman thank you susan do we have everybody back who needs to be here let me stop sharing my screen looks like we're still missing a couple of people and our break slide is still being displayed for the public so it'll okay take another couple of seconds before it leaves well i was a lucky guy it turns out that my wife made chocolate chip cookies from scratch during the first part of our meeting so yay okay i'm jealous i was trying to figure out where my peanut butter was yeah am i the only person in his office not at home i'm tuning in from home hi tear surenac commission eugene may here city attorney here to advise the commission on the appeal we friend shumaker and i are both in the office not alone not alone so susan are are we ready to go on the uh tv land side yes looks like we've caught up okay great uh so we'll reconvene item number seven on our agenda is a site plan waiver for 210 Lincoln street accessory dwelling unit appeal of decision pzr 2020-6 um associate planner zack blazak is listed on the agenda but i believe it's uh brian shumaker who will be presenting before we get into that i want to disclose that again just like the previous item um i live in old town on on the north side of of third street on grant um but in our packet there are two letters uh that were submitted by rick and cindy hoag two separate letters they are neighbors of mine that live two doors north of me so i do know the hoags um but um i've not talked to them about this this project uh or had any expertate communications with them about this agenda item and i'll be basing my entire decision off of what we hear tonight and what was in our packet any other disclosures from any other commissioners commissioner height yeah i have a client who lives um one block north of this property um he and i have never spoken of this issue he is not um participating in any of the comments here um my um relationship to him that has no bearing on my review and consideration of the merits of this matter great thank you okay um you heard uh city attorney may uh say that he is uh advising the commission and that's because this is an appeal uh brian can or zach can take us through the details of that but we have uh two of the city attorneys here and this is you might have noticed that our pzr's are a little bit different um so we'll need explanation of those as well um so we know exactly what the wording in those is um that let's uh is it brian who's presenting thank you commissioners yeah brian schumacher city planning staff susan can you hear me okay i sure can let me know when you're ready yeah would you mind bringing up the staff presentation for this item thanks appreciate it good evening commissioners brian schumacher with city planning staff so i'll be assisting with tonight's presentation and pitch hitting for planning planning manager britchett uh staff members here this evening including aside from myself include zack blazik who reviewed the site plan waiver dane hermson with uh code enforcement it's also with us we have director johnny marsh and deputy city attorney trece tate in addition to mr may um all available to respond to questions that you might have regarding this particular application so commissioner schurnack as you mentioned this hearing is not typical of most of the public hearings that the commission reviews occasionally though there are administrative decisions and interpretations that are appealed to the planning zoning commission for the land development code procedures the applicant or the owner has the ability to appeal an administrative decision and this is typically related to either a denial or specific conditions of approval that staff may place on administrative decision susan next slide please so similar to an appeal of the commission's decision to city council where city council acts as the appeal body in this instance the planning zoning commission is the appeal body this slide outlines a basic framework for the appeal hearing so as i'm doing right now presenting the staff appeal report next the appellant of the applicant would present their information and then we'd open a public hearing if there's any members of the public who'd like to speak on this item then there'd be an opportunity for the commission to ask questions and have discussion there'd also be an opportunity for rebuttal by both the applicant and staff and then at the end then the commission would have an opportunity to make a motion and vote on this item as noted in the packet there is a letter from the applicant as well as comments from the public in addition to the public comments in the packet expressing both concerns and support for the proposal there were several other additional emails that were received that were forwarded to the commission this afternoon hopefully y'all receive those there was three emails from Kayla Spangler sandy mccarthy and john meccanon and all three express support for the applicant and if you have questions about that i can bring those up as well so when the commission makes a decision on the appeal that decision is not appealable to city council appeals of the commission's decision as an appeal body would be the colorado court of competent jurisdiction next slide susan this slide outlines the commission's role in this appeal hearing to hold a public hearing on the appeal and to make a decision on the appeal to either uphold reverse or modify the administrative decision that was made on the site plan waiver you've probably noticed that the plan zoning commission resolutions are in a different format than for typical applications and these were specifically drafted for this appeal hearing process for the appeal the burden of demonstrating that an application complies with the review criteria and the approval criteria is on the applicant the city or other parties do not have that burden to show the criteria have not been met next slide please so this slide just as a vicinity map showing the general location 210 Lincoln street on the east side of Lincoln between second avenue on the south and spruce avenue to the north not too far from the bond farm item that was just heard so this property is zoned residential mixed neighborhood rmn and that zoning permits 180 on any property of one primary single family residential drawing yet next slide please property as i mentioned is zoned residential mixed neighborhood and the zoning was updated with the land development code update in 2018 to be consistent with the envision lawnmant land use plan that was adopted in 2016 the envision plan contemplates accessory drawings as a secondary use next slide please so for background this slide shows a proposed site layout with the primary residence facing Lincoln street and the proposed accessory drawing unit in the back of the property off the alley and this the site plans included in your packet as well as staff also wanted to convey some of the actions that occurred over the past year regarding this matter as noted in your staff report so that included a combination of things one that started in september of 2019 was code enforcement sent a notice of violation for an uncompromitted accessory drawing unit also at the same time after the notice of violation was sent staff met with the applicant to discuss options and one possible option was to consider an accessory drawing unit on the property subject to that accessory drawing unit meaning all the code standards or review criteria and then in 2019 sorry december 2019 the code violation at that time from the september code violation was corrected the adu components were removed from the accessory building in february 2020 the site plan waiver application was accepted an initiated review we went through several rounds of review on that in may of 2020 there was a second code enforcement complaint that was made regarding occupation of the rear structure and then in june of 2020 uh staff denied the site plan waiver application that was issued to the applicant next slide please so the site plan waiver application request was to permit a detached accessory drawing unit and the existing accessory structure located to the rear of the property 210 Lincoln street this slide notes the differences between some information that's provided on county records and the application that was submitted as part of the site plan waiver request so not all portions of the property improvements have been constructed with required building permits and that's noted in your staff report as well next slide please the floor plan for the proposed this slide shows the floor plan for the proposed accessory drawing unit and that's also included in your packet the accessory drawing unit was proposed to occupy a portion of the space within the rear accessory building that contains bathroom kitchen bedroom typical of an accessory drawing in comprising an area of approximately 511 square feet the proposed floor plan shows two separate enclosed storage areas not to be included as part of the accessory drawing area enclosed off from the adu living space next slide please so this slide generally describes the types of code standards applicable to this type of application specifically related to accessory structures and accessory drawing units including the relationship to the principal structure in this case the principal drawing next slide please so the code accessory use standards include restrictions on the size of individual accessory structures including accessory drawing units as well as the total area of all accessory structures the items highlighted in yellow on this slide an area staff found to be non-compliant with code standards both the size of one accessory structure that being the rear accessory drawing unit as well as the size of all combined accessory structures on the property so I'm not going to walk through all the calculations as part of my presentation but if the commission has more specific questions Zach who reviewed the site plan waiver more detail should be able to provide more details for the commission next slide please so in terms of the review criteria analysis regarding criterion one there's a couple areas that staff felt that it didn't meet this criteria and one is that the proposal does not comply with the current land use code requirements and second that structures on the property were illegally expanded or constructed that violate code building codes next slide please regarding criterion two the application is not yet in full compliance of all applicable city standards including drainage standards regarding criterion three there are notable discrepancies between bolder county property records and the application regarding the score footage of both primary structure and the rear accessory structure in which the ADU is proposed so there are no city planning or building permit records indicating that expansions for either structure to the floor area have been permitted these discrepancies indicate that the structures were expanded without approvals and the expansion on each structure are illegal rather than non-conforming so structures expansions without proper approvals creates incompatibility and potential unsafe land use and building layout design staff did find that review criteria four was met that's not included on these slides it's in your packet and also review criteria five and six are not applicable to this particular application next slide please so as mentioned earlier the applicant has the burden to demonstrate that the application complies the applicable review criteria so next slide please this slide reiterates options available to the commission as noted in the resolutions included in the packet again either to uphold reverse or modify the director's decision to deny the application as noted in resolution 6a 6p or 6c next slide please this slide outlines the reasons why the application was denied including non-compliance with code standards related to accessory structures and accessory drawings and non-compliance with review criteria one two and three as I noted before as a result the city requested the commission uphold the decision of the director to deny the site plan waiver application for 210 Lincoln street next slide please so that concludes my presentation although this slide asks for questions at this time based on the procedural slide shown earlier slide two which we can go back to and reference as needed the next step would be for the appellant slash applicant to present I believe a score will be presenting for the applicant this evening after the applicant's presentation the commission would open the public hearing if there are any members of the public that would like to speak on this item after the public hearing the commission has an opportunity for questions and discussion and before the commission entertains a motion there's an opportunity for a bottle from the applicant and staff so I just asked Teresa or other staff is there anything else to note before we move to the applicant presentation if not I would just say thank you the commission and we can kind of move on to the next step I would note that it is a de novo review which means that the commission applies the facts presented at the hearing to the criteria listed and makes an independent determination all right let's uh let's move on with the appellant's presentation then please yes hello everyone this is alex score I'm not able to show my video it's just not allowing me to oh there we go it's good seeing you all it's been a long time since I've seen you uh thank you for extending this I know that this is a smaller project than the one that you just heard but it's actually it's a big deal for the person that's living in there so I appreciate your time um and your effort in understanding this and and and hopefully um you know your opinion in your vote at the end so Susan could you bring up my presentation certainly one moment perfect everyone can see that so to give you I just wanted to give you a visual focus of of what we're looking at so this is the front house and behind that fence that blue trims uh structure is the adu and I wanted to show you this picture to show that it is conforming to the size of and the scope of this neighborhood um if you go to the next picture um here's a picture again that blue trim with that yellow siding right there there's the adu in question this is extremely typical um of the structures in this area within the size and scope but just to give you a visual idea of what what we're we're talking about in set structure right there if you go to the next slide please um so the major issues um is that it's the an adu which is allowed in this zone is too large in comparison to the front house um it was not properly permitted we know that um and the area is not accurately recorded and just to boil us down to layman's term so if you go to the next slide um to give some context this house was built in 1940 and the records have it at 750 square feet um one of the first things that we did is because they didn't have an an ILC that um was acceptable by the city we had Andy Patterson who is a registered surveyor who does hundreds of projects um and I don't think you could I don't think you could question his accuracy went out and measured it um and it is 1000 the house is 1036 square feet half of which would be 511 so when we're 518 and the adu that we're proposing is 511 um the rear house record is 504 but then Andy Patterson um verified it at 903 now the question of expanding gene brought bought the house in 1987 and the footprint has stayed the same so and then let's go to the next point in 1992 she converted the rear garage into an adu she did not expand the footprint she did not expand the footprint of the house or anything like that so when this was brought up in 2019 we have to go back and correct something that's happening in 1992 and of course it's not going to fall within the guidelines that were made in 2018 when something happened in 1992 now we're not disputing that she didn't get the right permits um for it at that time but it has been in this condition and not a problem to the to the majority of the neighbors during during that whole time period so then once gene was notified of this she did take the right steps and did start to go through the city and then did hire an architect and the only reason why for that second violation was basically because of covid she had no other place to live um i took some steps talking with some building officials but also having my engineer going to inspect the building we had electrical engineers professional engineers go inspect the building to make sure it was safe and gene jasmine is an elderly lady that had an adu that's been up since 1992 and did reoccupy it for the purposes of she would be living in her car if she didn't be living in the year and it's not acceptable especially if she has a safe place to live that's actually safe um that's inspected by professionals to not allow that but now we're here still continuing this process to try to do the right thing right so it's not trying to circumvent it everything is is trying to do the proper thing the proper way it's just hard with the codes and the way that everything happened now between 1940 and 1987 i do not know what happened to the property if things got expanded but not uh not properly permitted or anything like that i have no idea i don't know if gene has any idea but the footprint stayed the same besides on the adu i'll show you there was a garage in the back and then there was a three season porch and that all got enclosed in the adu but that three season porch that whole footprint still stayed the same she didn't add anything onto it um and then she hired us in december and now we're here before you next slide please so we have a couple of different options as you can see in gray is the adu that fits the records for what exists now what the survey or andy paterson has documented which is half the square footage so you as the commissioners have a couple different options of what you can do and i'm going to go through the right review criteria and how i think we meet that too um but one is if if the denial is upheld this is a big question um because what happens you know if the denials would help do we do you demo it does what if the client doesn't have enough money to demo a structure that or exists does it stay vacant does it go neglected um it's a property that that's there so we have to face that challenge and deal with it in in a humane but a responsible way um so you could allow it with modifications also um that would be to demo a portion of the structure of the well when we have them walled off so obviously you could approve it with modifications to to leave it as we kind of presented or we could demo those areas labeled storage um the problem with that is that you're demoing something that isn't made to be demo so you're causing uh more costs and then aesthetically you're making the neighborhood actually more unpleasing to it um to fall within the guidelines too there's car ports and i believe that you saw those in the first two pictures we could go back and look at those and then those would comply to the area rules that zack knows and and are actually pretty complicated but if you trust zack numbers and our numbers those would make everything comply with the structure being 50 less and everything else being 75 less um or you could allow the same footprint that expired that existed in 1987 um and have the adu remain with or without the walls blocked off and i'll tell you why that's a concern of choosing to have the walls blocked off or not having blocked off could we go to the next slide so here is that carport in the back the reason why i want you to consider keeping the carports is because it snows in colorado and this house does not have garages so if we choose to eliminate either one of the carports which actually no one has a problem with you're making an elderly lady or an elderly anyone that moves in or a young person i even shovel off of my car removes snow off of car and have it be exposed um and cause undue burden into a residence a resident of longmont that doesn't need to have that burden on there um we don't think that the carports are really an issue with this square foot with the neighbors um with fitting in context next slide please and so there there's the front carport again um it could be a garage it could be bigger um but it it it's a small little carport um that isn't an eyesore and well done next slide please so the review criteria uh the first one is that it's consistent um with the comprehensive plan and purpose um and actually i i actually want to quote two points of um policy from longmont that that aren't on this slide but there's a longmont policy 12 1.2 and it states anticipate and plan for challenging needs of the community and the diverse diversity of the city housing stock by encouraging the development of a range of housing type size prices and densities so that last sentence of encouraging development of range of housing size prices and densities allowing for this adu falls in line with that uh everyone was at the bond farm meeting and and you might have caught me chuckled because someone said adu's are are what longmont is actually trying to do for a variety of different reasons um there's also a goal of longmont 3.1 ensure there's our affordable and accessible housing options that fit the needs of the residents of all ages abilities and income levels so retrofitting or destroying or demoing or not approving this adu increases the cost because if you theoretically this adu could be denied we could demo it and essentially build the same square foot back up in a new more i mean obviously it's going to cost more because you have to rebuild the whole structure labor shortages still abound um i i'm a builder here too so it would be more expensive so keeping this would actually fall in line within the review criteria one besides seeking structural size release so that's what we're looking for is structural size relief um and then accurately recording of the existing structures which i believe we can do by recording the plats that andy paterson um created to update it to to what what actually is um point number two uh complies with cindy standards the main point on the packet was that it didn't because there was a public work comment of that drainage needs to be taken care of um i called mara and i said hey you know i thought we addressed this um actually i did it through an email i go here's where we addressed it and she said yep that that is acceptable no further comments so review criteria two is actually a check mark that we have checked off um if could we go to the next slide uh review criteria three is compatible with the existing surroundings properties in terms of its land use yes the site and building layout and design and access um so again it's only fixing the size the size uh between the adu and the existing house but please note that there's a picture of this uh an area of view for a reason and that's because it would if you if you didn't know where the site was and if you had to pick which one was which one of these houses were overbuilt which one of these lots had too much gene jasmans would be one of the last ones that you pick and that's because some person with more money could buy her a lot could tear it down rebuild a bigger house and then rebuild the same size or a bigger adu and that would be compatible with the city guidelines so something larger than what exists right now would be considered compatible so just because there's a small house in front and that's making this back house not compatible but i want you to keep that in mind when you're making uh your decision that a larger thing could be in place so thus it's compatible with it with the neighborhood in the size and its scope um the city did state that partial use of the structure for the accelerated dressing uh dwelling unit may not be the most logical way and that goes with um all the neighbor's comments so what we proposed doing was basically blocking it off um so that she's only using 511 square feet the negative comments that we got the theme was that you know she built illegally which we're trying to adjust and that she might expand into those other areas right so you could approve this with just approving the whole adu thus that wouldn't be an issue that she wouldn't be in compliance of expanding into those if the adu itself is approved i also want to note that there was three letters against it but there was 14 letters for it there was 14 letters some of them long some of them uh very well written in support of this versus versus the three that were not in support um number four that application does not adversely affect surrounding properties uh in the natural environment um i believe that this is a big point and the city agrees that um that we've met this criteria um could you go to the next slide please and it and the next slide points out that uh point five and six are moved they they really don't apply with with what's going on here um so review criteria one especially with the policies and the goals of what the city is trying to make and trying to have as a community i think we meet that number two was the drainage issue that that we solved number three was the the size um you know fit within the context of the of the city and if you could build something bigger something smaller obviously fits um number four uh what was number four number four the city agreed with us uh and number five and six don't come so we asked that planning and zoning commission vote to allow the structure to be used as an adu which it legal which an adu is permitted and then we'll go to the building department and get the building permits for in its existing size while allowing the other structures to remain um so i'll leave it at that that's our presentation again i thank you for for staying up and considering this because it is a it is a at least a big big issue to at least one person thank you mr gore um we will move on to the public hearing part of this um and we need to go through our process of allowing people to call in so susan if we can put that up on our screen thank you um if you want to call in and and make a comment on this item please call 1-888-788-0099 uh when you reach that phone number uh the meeting idea is 862-0295-7430 so call 1-888-788-0099 enter in 862-0295-7430 we need about five minutes to take care of all the technicalities with this so we'll take a five-minute break thank you chair we'll wait for the live stream slide to disappear looks like we've got five people waiting i'm gonna let them in okay so welcome to the callers tonight give us just a minute and then we will call you one by one by the last three digits of your phone number please stop listening to the live stream you may miss the opportunity when i try to call on you so if you reduce the volume on the live stream that may help and looks like we're ready i'll begin with the first caller your phone number ends in 744 i'm gonna ask you to unmute caller 744 hello there hello my name is hi i'm guessing i unmute so my name is kink mill i live at 207 Lincoln street also at the request of our neighbors who are essential workers and have a very early morning they're in healthcare uh they asked me to act as their proxy tonight they live at 214 Lincoln their names are malora and ryan demokhmat thank you for allowing me this time to to share my thoughts on this jasmine's appeal i'm going to be brief it's very late we're all a little bit tired and i'm pretty sure we need about a nice end stretch here uh first i'd like to say for the record i am not particularly against ad use as a general rule in fact not that long ago an ad you was approved just about a block north of here of this subject property which is right across the street from me adhering to code and complying with all the appropriate regulations it was approved and then the structure was converted it was not a retroactive request i think this is actually great in line with long month's density goals and respectful of process and law when i wanted to put a new roof on my house i pulled a permit when i wanted to upgrade my electrical service i pulled a permit when i wanted to put up a white picket fence something i have always wanted and not quite done with it yet i pulled a permit and when i wanted to enrich both the neighborhood and my own property value by removing the 40 year old dilapidated vinyl siding and replacing with a new age appropriate exterior on this incredibly cute long month classic home i pulled a permit shouldn't we all be held to that same standard shouldn't we all have to comply with the rules and regulations set forth and ratified by the community as a standard for all of us acceptance of this proposal in any form with that an unwarranted precedent that permits are not truly necessary had this structure in question been modified and expanded responsibly and legally according to code and with the proper permit and had miss jasmine for the past 30 years contributed appropriately to the community in line with the actual use of this structure we would not be sitting here today i would not be up past midnight having this discussion with this commission there would be no question but this is not the case as someone pointed out in one of the support letters that i read in the packet the structure has been in place since 1987 and rented out since then while miss jasmine who upped until just a few years ago was living remotely in june alaska had rented out both dwelling and two others incidentally at 211 Lincoln right across the street which is adjacent to my property again no evidence that the modifications and expansions were ever done legally no record of the fundamental changes that were made to the property anywhere the implications are clear in closing miss jasmine should have complied with and abided by all codes and regulations just like the rest of us must from that day she decided to convert a garage into a dwelling she forfeited her opportunity to go back in time when she knowingly and with clear intent disregarded this responsibility this requirement in my four and a half years here living next door to miss jasmine and her many many revolving door renters she has never been a person you could take it her word so please please don't accept her promises going forward i want to see actions not words compliance isn't a choice in the interest of maintaining the integrity of our neighborhood and our community it must be compulsory and i want to add one thing i wasn't really i wasn't really planned tonight but i'm going to say just one more thing this notion of miss jasmine having to live in a car and covid and all this i'm sorry she just sold the house next door for more than four hundred thousand dollars spot free does not owe anything so i wonder i just wonder where does this story start and end i strongly support the director's decision in this matter and i hope that this commission upholds that decision today thank you thank you miss mills um susan who's next we're going to unmute 907 907 there you are hi my name is ron elms and i live at 215 Lincoln street and i would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak this evening i do apologize for adding to the commission's already long evening um i'd like to say first that i've lived in boulder counting nearly all of my life and in long months since 1982 and prior to this i've had no difficulties getting along with neighbors previous to my current situation i now live across the street from 210 Lincoln the property with the proposed adu and for 18 years from 2002 until two days ago i live next door to a property owned by gene jasmine at 211 Lincoln street which he's just sold i also purchased my house at 215 Lincoln street from miss jasmine perhaps more than any other neighbor therefore i think i have plentiful and difficult experience in living next to and living with consequences from the actions of the property owner in this appeal i will not go into great detail except to say that i've had no choice but to watch over the years as a fairly regular stream of workmen and the owner herself have engaged in in number of projects to expand alter and improve the properties next to and across from me without ever demonstrating evidence of the permit all this so that the back houses as she calls them could be rented without proper permission or approval from the city nevertheless my objections to this proposed adu are not of a personal nature the character gender age and special circumstances of the applicant should have no bearing on the case because this decision will directly affect not only her but also her neighbors and indeed all city residents who are required to secure the proper authorizations to make changes on their homes if an exception is made in this situation what will prevent any future homeowner from making uncommitted changes pleading ignorance after the fact and citing this case as a precedent i would also say i am not opposed to accessory dwelling units even those in my neighborhood even one next door if done properly for example when an illegal structure is demolished and the new one built i recognize accept and even applaud the city's 2018 change in policy to allow more adus in appropriately zoned areas i also applaud the efforts of the planning and development services and code enforcement to make sure that in work done on an adu is both legally permitted and conforming according to documents neither applies to the back structure at 210 linkin for all these reasons i hope that this appeal will be denied so that the efforts of the director and members of code enforcement will not be undermined lastly i appreciate those who would make a distinction between holding someone to the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law or in this case the letter of the code or the spirit of the code but in this instance are not one but two properties the owner was for her own benefit violating both the letter and the spirit in a way that directly and negatively impacted her immediate neighbors including myself as a neighbor rewarding such long-term behavior would provide a problem causing model for other homeowners in the long run of course any compassionate person would feel sorry for miss jasmine if she experiences difficult times as a result of this situation i do but she has brought these difficulties on herself the neighbors who are only trying to protect the quality of their own lives have not done this to her and the city functionaries who are tasked with upholding compliance and not person are not themselves persecuting anyone they're only looking out for and protecting greater good they deserve our thanks and i offer them mine and i thank you all as well for hearing me tonight and for all your time and efforts good night mr alms before you hang out can you hold out for a second um sure commissioner height yeah right i gotta ask you jenna question go ahead sorry ask ask you jenna we don't normally question uh collars or public hearing so that's what i wanted to talk to mr may about quickly okay eugene uh my name is not eugene i don't know i know i know mr alms i just wanted you not to hang up yet i don't have a question until i talk to you may okay which is eugene uh for mr a this gentleman seems to have evidence that might be directly relevant here am i allowed to ask more questions of this person i know it's not typical but this isn't typical uh it's a public hearing to present evidence these are the public providing testimony um that that's generally not uh what i've seen uh in the context of these hearings or for city council hearings right it's a it's a different type of thing and and if we're bringing in more evidence and and i guess there's the opportunity of both the city and the applicant or the appellant to rebut this is disinformation if this gentleman has potentially directly relevant information that he says he saw which i would like to ask him more about um to supplement this record or to make this record more full um i'd like to go down that road you know ultimately i do think it's a determination by the chair i i don't think that it's a typical procedure in these land use hearings to question members of the public who participate in the public hearing right i have in 10 years serving on planning and zoning i have never witnessed us once going through a q and a during the public hearing that's i that's why i cut you off so sharply commissioner height no i understand and i wasn't going to ask questions without going through this process first yeah um to stay consistent with how this commission has always worked uh i think we need to stay consistent with um with not doing q and a with uh the public during the public hearing part of of our meetings so thank thank you very much um i appreciate the opportunity to speak this evening and i appreciate all of your efforts tonight thank you mr elms um susan let's move on i think it's number 962 that's correct caller 962 do you hear us i'm gonna ask you to unmute 962 there you are can you hear us i can hear you can you hear me we sure can you may begin uh this is peter spaulding at 113 spruce avenue developer for a bond farm i would just like to talk about the character of gene jasmine she is one of the most giving individuals i know and she's probably one of the very few people in our community that actually works for the bond farm neighborhood association and trying to bring people together to do community events for the bond farm neighborhood park she's been an active member in helping to clean and to organize people to come and care for the park itself um i know some of the adversity that she's gone through with her neighbors um while some of it's justified um i think that those neighbors need to look at their own properties as well as for as for compliance issues too i think alex gore brings up a really good point regarding the fact that that property could be scraped and something much larger could be brought in um you know it could be a five bedroom house with an adu unit um so i think what she's doing is very hidden you can't it's very concealed you can't see the unit from either side of the road and the tenant that lives in the existing structure in front of her property or the adu that she's going for um they get along really well and i think the 14 letters of support indicate how well uh gene is accepted in the neighborhood i'm just going to keep this short but i support um alex and gene's uh proposal and um i hope to see a positive outcome come from this thank you thank you mr spaulding um next is number 128 caller 128 i'm asking to have you unmute yourself can you hear me 128 make sure you've stopped the live stream caller 128 can you unmute there you are do you hear us caller 128 looks like you just unmuted looks like she or he just muted themselves again and unmuted hello can you hear us i can see that you look like you're unmuted but we're not hearing you yes we can my name is brad cambell um i live at 16270 ocean view drive in june alaska i am gene jasmine's son now she made the mistake of turning the garage into living space without first permitting it you know that she has done um i would like to comment though um on you know where she's what she's done you know having um those rental properties she spent years down in mexico volunteering at orphanages and um a program called tassaday es bronza allows poor kids from villages to come into the city and pursue education she's put in numerous years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into volunteering and helping poor kids down in mexico um so my mother is 76 years old and she had some health issues which makes her especially at risk for contracting the coronavirus um gene needs a safe place to live and you know she deserves a safe place to live um and to keep this short and um i asked the planning commission to please work with gene and improve her a to you i appreciate your time thank you mr cambell um okay susan do we have any other callers no chair that was it okay i'll close the uh the public hearing and it looks like we go to questions and discussion uh amongst the commission um quick question for city attorney may just on on our process here um normally uh when we do questions and discussion um commissioners can address a question to whomever they wish um the applicant the applicant's representatives um you know city staff um are there any guidelines in an in an appeal scenarios we have tonight uh that you want us to adhere to oops uh you're you're muted chair sure neck the city attorney Eugene may hear no uh those same procedures would apply here it's a de novo hearing uh staff um and the applicant are here to clarify and expand upon their presentations uh they will have a chance to rebut the evidence presented as a sort of separate section of the agenda but for purposes of commission discussion commissioners are free to question the parties and and just to be clear after that rebuttal period by the applicant the commission does no further discussion after that uh they can if there's a motion there can be um debate on the motion usually the evidentiary portion of the hearing is closed at that point and then if there's any additional augmentation of the record then uh staff and the appellate would have an opportunity to rebut that or respond um in line with due process okay all right keep us on track no you're you're doing a great job okay um any questions from the commission commissioner height mr shoebacker um is the issue the size of the principal unit and the size of the accessory unit and the size of the additional accessory units on site is that the main issue other than i think there's a drainage problem that may or may not have been addressed but as i'm looking at this i'm looking at square footages and making numbers work is that the problem mr hi yes that's my understanding is the primary issue is related to the size of the structures and the fact that parts of the structures or some of the structures never got building permits so part two um there's a disparity between the sizes measured in the field versus sizes reported in boulder county's sensor records um suggesting as somebody may have witnessed or may not have witnessed that this particular building had been expanded without permits when a building is expanded without permits is that correctable chairman sharnack commissioner height i think i will step into this conversation uh joni marsh assistant city manager um so certainly there are options to correct which is why we um condemned and had the adu um removed previously because it was not built with building permits as the commission knows the city adopts codes to ensure life safety we certainly want all our residents to live in dwelling units that are properly permitted and in the case of this adu um that was not the case and i would suggest to the council or the planning commission to remember that we're talking about denial of a site plan waiver and that denial to commissioner heights point is based on the language that you will see on page seven of your staff report which talks about the total floor area and you'll note that they use the mandatory language which is shall meet those percentages and and in all three of those all of the percentages are not met in that mandatory size requirement we certainly could work with the applicant in a different format but certainly not in a site plan waiver process to look at other options to remedy but the site plan waiver is not the remedy and that is why it has been denied that is exactly part of what my question is so how does someone solve a problem of having illegally built something is it fixable possibly not in this format um so the denial i want to make sure i understand this or the rejection or the upholding of the rejection of this um this this waiver um doesn't foreclose the appellant an applicant from skinning this cap from a with a different knife um she could come in and go through full site plan review after and get her buildings fixed and qualified for an adu is that correct chairman shurnack and commissioner hyde so there may be a couple of other remedies via a site plan approval um and proper building permits which um in this case i would suggest proper building permitting um is actually first and foremost the most important thing for anyone living in a home um so there are a couple avenues um for the size of miss jasmine's property that we could look at potentially and certainly this is not the venue to promise that those options would work which may be things like would a duplex be allowed and there be some attachment there's two homes and i think uh mr gore makes a great point we want housing in our community but i don't think blocking off two rims and suggesting their storage makes an um for good housing nor does it make for a long-term enforcement potential for staff that certainly opens the doors for subsequent buyers to continue to change the format of those buildings and get us back to really where we are here today which all started um i think as you read from code enforcement so there may be an avenue via duplex and there's also some there were also some changes in this particular zoning district from the old code to the new code where you could actually have two principal dwelling units on a property so there would be some room for discussion around those options but make sure i understand this the waiver of site plan review is being denied because there's she can't show compliance with existing code um because she there's destructions are illegally built i think i follow that thank you um i'm gonna possibly be asking the same question so uh johnny please bear with me but i'm gonna put it in different terms so um i need to understand um somebody comes to you and says we want a site plan waiver so they're they're asking to not go through site plan review if you deny the waiver can they then turn around and do the site plan review the reason i'm asking is because it seems like everybody in these letters is saying that if we uphold the denial of the site plan waiver but the only option is demolition chairman schernock so i can appreciate that folks writing in might think that is the case however i would state that is not the case okay so the appellant would have the opportunity to proceed with the city by going through a full site plan review and not ask for a waiver of of that process i would say there is potential to explore other avenues to get approval for the inaccessory dwelling unit however i can't say this evening that that would for sure be approved administratively either or be an absolute yes however we are not approving the waiver simply because it can't meet the code statements and percentage requirements right um let me phrase the question another way um if the denial of the site plan waiver is upheld by this commission does that force the applicant out onto the street currently the applicant does not have a certificate of occupancy to occupy the structure we certainly empathize with miss jasmine and understand that she currently is seeking a place to live and our building official and our code enforcement staff have been working to make sure that we aren't turning her out into the street i think is um certainly where we're at however there is not a certificate of occupancy at this point that would state that you could live there indefinitely okay one thing i don't understand is that all this discussion is about the adu and miss jasmine living in the adu but she's the owner of the property why is she not living in the primary house perhaps that's best that might be a question for the applicant yes mr gore miss jasmine can you answer my question yes yes i can um the um i want to say that the people that were um opposed to my uh having an adu or adu said that i did it for my own benefit um and i want to just let you know that i've been a volunteer all my life in my home for orphans in mexico in uh red cross and in habitat for humanity i have volunteered my time and my money and that's what i've used those um uh the money for always and um i have um i have a renter a tenant very good tenant in the front house in at 210 and i um need that income for uh just living i have always lived very very simply um and uh i just want a simple place for myself to live and not have to uh evict a very good tenant that needs that house too so um if i don't get to live in the back house in the what if the adu is is not approved i will have to go and find something else um because um i think you can hear the anger of my neighbors who complained um it's not uh a good place for me to be just health wise and um this 14 neighbors that approved or supported me were very um it was very good to hear so i would go find a place to live somewhere else where there's more positive energy that's how i can answer that okay thank you for that um i know another commissioner had her had a question our commissioner on her well i kind of i kind of got the answers uh it's a very tough situation the commission is in right now uh i personally respect the city's willingness to really apply the standards and stick with it but at the same time i asked the question what the standard is when i read this rule for the first time i questioned it and this is a perfect example why i questioned it if you double the front house square footage today if you put a second floor and make it 2 000 square feet or 24 000 square feet house you're making the adu compliant and i asked that question why does that make sense it doesn't and that's why i'm kind of split up now i feel the absurdity of the rule but also i feel like you know we need to comply to the rule because the rule is legal and that's the way we control the development so i don't know i just wanted to put that out am i right to say that if you double the square footage of the front house the back would be compliant let's address that to brian schumacher that question yeah so that that would be one option um is to expand the existing principal structure to have that to be larger than one half of the square footage of the accessory drawing unit so my question is that why does that make sense well i think the purpose of the standard uh applies more often in residential single family neighborhoods than perhaps the residential mixed neighborhood where duplexes might be allowed and the standard applies across the board to all residential zoning districts where their single family detached structures and the intent was to limit the size of the accessory dwelling unit so it wouldn't be out of character with the single family neighborhood commissioner flake thank you um i don't often say while working in denver but i have to in this situation i know i hate to bring that up but sometimes if you do not have a certificate of occupancy required people end up moving into places that are really not habitable really not and that's why it's important to have a certificate of occupancy it protects people so if we're denying that someone can go ahead and just live in a place that has not been permitted and gone through all the correct reviews that you and i i think i can speak that you and i think should be there to protect all of us so that we all have good housing you end up with situations that are just horrid where people have nowhere to turn and then the zoning departments or inspections has to basically step in and shut down a place because co's are not issued or the dwelling place is simply not appropriate for human habitation so my tendency is to say look for another remedy but uphold the decision of the planning development services director because we have to have certain kinds of standards so that we make sure that we have living spaces that are appropriate and that we can defend as being habitable that's part of our responsibility too commissioner goldberg thanks chairman uh commissioner on run i echo your frustration and recognizing that we're in a conundrum here and commissioner flag i appreciate your perspective on standing by the rule of law and recognizing that they're there for a reason they're in place for a reason two quick clarifying questions actually for city attorney may if you're available so are you gene quick question um we received several um notes of support speaking to our app the the appellants character all of the speaking to some of the good that she's done her volunteerism and other qualities that are um upstanding is a person's character something that we should be considering in this review process today uh chairman and commission uh you know this appeal is about the application of the code to a site plan waiver application and i would encourage and advise the commission to apply the code criteria as they appear in our ordinance um that is that is the law for the city of longmont and you know character and policy considerations are not code those those are decisions for policy makers and that isn't really the role of the commission in this context in this forum okay thanks we're just one more for you are we how about previous violations are those something that we should take into consideration when reviewing this project again i think i would say pretty much what i said in my first response that this is a site plan waiver application to be measured against the code criteria um you know i think that that uh part of the role of the commission is to weigh the credibility of witnesses and evidence and that may factor in you know that that is your role as a commission but you're looking at the evidence presented against the criteria of the code and making a determination did that answer your question i think 100% thanks mr. mays yeah i guess um you know just to drop a seed with the rest of the commission um yeah this this this sticky for sure uh we can you know i start inclined to and defer to our city staff as the experts most of the time and their decision making the way is heavy on me and and and it inspires me anyways but you know we're here to evaluate that review and and those decisions made so i recognize that as a challenge and on the flip side i'm able to turn to the public contributions today uh you know some of the feedback really resonated that we need to make sure that we're holding everyone to the same standard compliance isn't a choice we're at the risk of setting a precedent perhaps the reason why we're in this position and the reason why the um a talent is here today was from positions that were self-imposed and so i think i'll stop there and turn to the rest of the commission for a discussion and before i can make any stands here pressure out around sorry i'm a little frustrated but my frustration comes from this question that we're being asked you're basically asking us if it is okay not to get occupancy permit obviously it's not okay and if that's the question you're asking us that's redundant you shouldn't ask that question it's not okay but if this is an appeal coming to us i would assume that you're asking about the rule itself it is obvious that the rule is not complied but my frustration comes from there's something really absurd about the rule and what we're denying from the applicant to me at least in my heart is unfair even though she doesn't have permit for occupancy which is wrong so that's why my dilemma is like why are we being asked this question this way creates my frustration thanks uh mr gore uh thank you for allowing me to respond because i think this is the crux of the question especially the crux since the uh people that opposed it brought it up and made a good point about permits and precedence and we aren't asking the question whether we should not get permits or whether this should be a precedence because the way that this has to be followed is that we have to go through planning and zoning first to then go to the building department which we've already engaged with to get the the permits which the commissioner brought up will help ensure that this is a safe structure that this is a structure that someone can live in now the the issue comes up in in in in two ways actually one we've you know i hate to bring up denver two we've done hundreds of houses in denver and it goes in the same process of going through the planning and zoning and we've never had this weird denial because what it probably should have been is adjust this change this keep modifying until we get the correct answer but this is a denial which and and i think honestly it's a denial because we are then recommended to go to this committee because you are all human beings and sometimes we see the there are flaws in in the code no code can be perfect and no code can take in every single situation and it's does what doing if you think what's right trumps the actual technicalities which we know that we can't meet which we are trying to remedy and to think that is this is going to set a precedence of of allowing people to do this i can tell you that this is the harder way to do it and i know that because we've done it before where this has happened it's never gotten to this commission but this is not a position that anyone wants to get in this is not a risk anyone wants to take even in in building you know when the inspectors come by you don't even want to hide something even if you think you can get away with it because if you get caught you're screwed so what i'm what we are essentially asking you and and what we heard from planning and zoning is to literally bring this up to you guys for your decision because this rule does not make sense in this certain case this square footage thing because then we can go after this to the building department and it has been kind of messy and frustrating because we've been asked from the city who i have to admit are pretty great we've worked with a long time but they kept questioning us how are you going to get your uh why don't you have your permits we can't we can't approve this you don't have permits we have to go through planning and zoning before we can get permits so i i really i don't know if i'm summing this up correctly but i think it goes to the point that was just being made that that i followed it goes to this one question is are you allowed to make the decision when things don't make sense and i was in the army and you are supposed to follow rules but you know when you're not supposed to follow certain rules and you don't and you are not supposed to cross those lines and this is in the equivalent to that that's at another level but we're dealing with a similar situation where if you had to write a code and and remedy this where it would be something like a house under so many square footage can have more than 50 great that would remedy this code that isn't here right if you're you're if we're trying to answer the question how does a 1992 house that's built in 1992 apply to codes made in 2018 it doesn't it doesn't apply to those codes but that doesn't mean that we that you can't make the decision that the square footage is is allowed and is something that doesn't burden this community actually helps property values fits within the context and then we can move on to the building the building permit where we address those health safety and welfare issues thank you commissioner height um respectfully i think miss jasmine and mr gore here are under are here under the wrong procedure um they requested a waiver from the director there are certain standards that they have to obtain that waiver from the director the director says they don't meet the standards if you look at the standards um you know 1502070c3 you have to comply with 1502055 and 150502 says you're in compliance with all city standards they're not they don't have specific an occupancy they don't meet the square footage the director's decision to deny the waiver was correct that doesn't mean that miss jasmine doesn't have another means by which to correct her problems but just to not seek the waiver go through full site plan review frankly my two cents is the same thing i don't understand why we're here with an appeal when there are other options commissioner poland yeah i agree i agree with uh commissioner heighten and you can uh commissioner chairperson sure next um we are not here to change a code that was written that's we're not to debate whether the code is right or wrong that's for another time that's for somebody else to take up another challenge or there's another process for that we are to apply the code to the situation applying the code to the situation means that we for me it means that we uphold the planning zoning's decision to deny the certificate of waiver applicant jasmine does have another or several other ways that she can approach this there are some first steps that they can take to try to rectify some things they can maybe even approach to see if if the code can be changed at some future date but for this date we have our code and that's what we have to follow commissioner golberg yeah nice to put commissioner poland i appreciate that summary and the perspective from commissioner height as well so i think with that and again looking for any red flags if it we're not allowed to make a motion at this time but i i think we're okay i'd be inclined to move that we uphold the decision of the planning and development services director finding that the site plan waiver application does not meet the review criteria which let's go to city attorney may let's make sure we're we're in proper procedure chair mature neck you read my mind so i'm looking at the list it sounded like there was rebuttal by staff in the appellant maybe you want to disformalize it and make sure that they've had that opportunity yeah and then the other comment with the motion if the commission may want to adopt one of the pzrs in the packet as they're written findings okay thank you attorney may um commissioner teta let's uh let's proceed with with your comments uh we'll get back to commissioner golberg's motion you need to unmute yourself please uh i'd just like second okay um okay well well well before we get to the second we need to figure out exactly what the motion is um but um uh let's let's do this um we need to have a commissioner height please i would just tell you not to forget to request the rebuttal that's what i was just going to do thank you um we need to have a formal uh chance for rebuttal from uh the applicant or her her representative mr gore miss jasmine yep i'll only say one thing and then turn it over to miss jasmine because i think that you guys have heard my perspective the only thing i wanted to clarify is that we did not go in requesting uh site plan review wavering this was the process the city told us to do and the reason why i wanted to make that clarification is because i don't want you guys to think that we came in trying to skirt some sort of rules we went into the city sat down with them asked them what process should we do this was where we were directed directed we came to this asked what process should we now do and then we're directed to this to this meeting i just want to make that clear that we weren't trying to wave something or try to uh underskirt anything it was in conversation with them um and in in direction with them jean miss jasmine well i totally acknowledge and totally regret that i did not get permits when i um remodeled the garage into dwelling um and i want to make that right also i want to make it clear because the square footage argument i i don't know if everyone understands i did not increase the square footage of either the front house or the garage remodeled the inside of them and um so i i don't know if that makes a difference but um and last thing just for your consideration because we have spent so much time on this the square footages is correct if we block off those other two rooms that's right that's literally what all of this work is coming down to besides that we would have to submit to the county that these are the correct square footages um because by the uh surveyor so that's the heart of the issue and if i am i still on if we if i can have the square footage of the the um garage conversion without those two other rooms that i've blocked off and will not use and if we have to tear those off of the building um i'll do that um and if i have to eliminate other structures on the property i'll do that it seems a shame but um i did not get permits for them i put the money in needy places and i just didn't do it so i regret that i asked for some kind of leniency and understanding and to help with this situation anything further mr. gordon is jasmine not just that i do respect the city's need to have rules and regulations and i don't deny um that they're very important and um i've had a structural engineer come through the house and and approve it as being um uh totally livable uh also an electrical engineer and a plumber engineer that have all said everything is up to code and standard it's not a bad place to live at all oh okay thank you um commissioner goldberg um you had started to talk about emotion um as we've been advised by city attorney may more specificity with that chairman and opportunity for staff i'm sorry oh staff rebuttal um yep okay thank you sorry chairman sharnakin members of council gosh i am so backwards from i was here last night at 11 o'clock to sorry i am not with it so commissioners staff like the commission are obligated to follow the policy that is adopted and in this instance the standards and the criteria and the policies that are currently adopted were not met and i believe the applicant has indicated that they acknowledge that those criteria are not met in addition to building codes not being followed um and with that i don't have anything further thank you thank you johnny okay so now i believe we can proceed with a discussion about emotion commissioner goldberg thanks chairman uh yeah i think i'll just go ahead and resubmit the motion with i think the proper identification um i think what i'm recommending or i'm motioning to approve pdr 2020-6a which is a resolution of the planning zoning commission to uphold the planning and development service director's decision to deny a site plan waiver application for 210 Lincoln street uh commissioner teta and i'd like to second okay so motion to approve pdr 2020-6a um has been moved and uh seconded is there any further discussion about this motion city attorney may can the discussion be from the applicant i believe it's only amongst the commission you are correct chairman okay the evidentiary portion of the hearing i would consider to be over it is amongst uh discussion amongst the commission and then a vote okay thank you okay uh seeing no no further discussion about the motion let's take a vote those in favor raise your hand and say aye aye those opposed any abstentions okay jane that passes unanimously seven to zero um now i do not have a um um any sort of uh announcement to read and city attorney may uh usually i make some sort of statement about what steps would be from here but we are the final decision final decision body or final deciding body um do you want to clarify for everybody who's still present um as to what might happen from this point uh or what what the applicant could do uh chairman churnak uh you are correct you are the final decision maker here appealable only to a court of competent jurisdiction um it did sound like uh assistant city manager marsh was suggesting a conversation about uh proper options um and i will have to say i i don't know what all those options are uh but i think we saw some of limitation of the site plan waiver process and that there are other processes that may yield better results okay thank you um we still okay that concludes this item uh we still have more to our agenda which includes a um final call for the public invited to be heard so um susan we need to put our um oh thank you mr gore thank you miss jasmine appreciate your time i know it's late um and uh we're going to proceed with our uh the rest of our agenda um susan could we put the slide up that shows the uh the phone number for people to call in on if they want to uh speak about something that was not on tonight's agenda the phone number to call is 1-888-788-0099 enter the meeting id 8620295-7430 so again call 1-888-788-0099 enter in the id 8620295-7430 we'll take a five minute break to let all the magic electrons do their thing susan i don't know if you're still there i lost track of time so i don't know how close we are to five minutes feels like five minutes to me yeah we're probably close we'll just wait for the slide to clear the stream okay looks like we've only got six people watching now and i know a couple of our staff are on that so i am not seeing anybody chair okay great thank you susan so we're closing the uh final call public invited to be heard um any items from the commission commissioner gilbert i think i just wanted to say that man's ain't always easy you know despite being late despite having you know so many um projects before us where we can you know virtually high five at the end and know that we did a good thing sometimes we get projects like the one before us just that we just finished but somehow you know you did the right thing but it feels real bad um but i wanted to thank the commission for a good discussion and uh i think coming up with the right decision anything else from the commission thank you commissioner gilbert uh any items from council representative uh erin rodriguez uh thank you commissioner schoenig what a barn burner tell you what the commission does not disappoint uh and there's definitely a lot of uh very good points brought up tonight on both uh topics that i think the council will have to address at one point another obviously the bone farm project will be coming before council and then also looking at our adu rules is definitely of great interest to the council i believe an email was actually already sent to city manager domingas from the mayor asking specifically for uh agenda item concerning adus so i'll definitely be able to hopefully relay uh some of the questions that the the commission has when we have that discussion so thank you again also much for your service thank you very much any items from planning manager johnny marsh chairman sure night commissioners thank you for a lady of mean i appreciate all your hard work we will have a meeting next month i think right now we only have one item on the agenda so hopefully it won't be a 1246er have a good rest of your time all right well thank you very much i want to extend a special thank thanks to jane madrid and uh heather mcdonald and uh susan wallach for running everything behind the scenes we really truly can't do it without you and you're staying up just as late as us so really appreciate it jane just sent me an email saying good morning commissioner surenick here are the easy hours to sign so um all right unless i hear from anybody uh saying no we are adjourned have a good night all right