 Hi, Josh. Howdy. How's it going? So many meetings. Yeah. The, I feel like went through the cycle where in like March, April, there was all the meetings. And then people got kind of burned out. And in May and June, the number of meetings. Dropped. And now we're back to. Five hours of meetings a day. Yeah. Yeah, I know the feeling. My whole, my whole afternoon is just like crammed nonstop. Oh, hey. Do you know, you know Alison Downey from Kubernetes? I do indeed. Yeah. She's moving to London. Is she, she was actually, she was ready to move to London. And then she got stuck in New Zealand. I think, personally, I think she's crazy to move from the only COVID free country in the world. To the UK, but okay. Yeah. There's job related things. Cool. Do you know when she's, when she's actually going to be here? Uh, next month. Okay, perfect. I'll make sure I, I'll make sure I reach out to her. April. Yeah. Yeah. Get together with her for a socially distanced to your coffee or something. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's been. We didn't set out to do the pod slash bubble thing. I'm really amused with that being concept being called pods. For obvious reasons. But we've ended up doing it anyway, right? Um, the only friends that we feel really comfortable. Seeing in person. Are the ones who we know are not terrifically social. Yep. Yeah, there's another couple that live in our neighborhood. Uh, that are like that. They're the only ones that we see. And so every weekend we've been just getting together and one or the other's houses and interestingly enough, playing pandemic. Cause there's not enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Have, have you played any of the pandemic extension sets? Yeah. So we're actually playing pandemic legacy. And so we started and we got like halfway through it. Um, and then the pandemic started and then we had to take a break from it. Um, and now we're back to finishing the second half of legacy. But we've played three or four weekends in our row. And you know, we're still, we're still not done. We still have a few more games to go. Okay. But yeah, it's, it's fun. Hey, Remi. Hi there. Everybody. You and ages. Yeah. That's what happens when nobody leaves their house. Oh, it's great. It is great to see everybody. Uh, you know, for, you know, a big part of this whole open source. You know, you know, it's great to see everybody. Uh, you know, for, you know, a big part of this whole open source thing is the people and I, I relish these types of events here where we're, we're getting the band back together a little bit. It's nice. Cool. What's your gig these days? So I'm the newly minted head of open source over at Spotify. So I've been helping to spin up their Ospo. They already had a pretty awesome, uh, group of people internally called the FOS board that's been sort of doing all of the functions of the Ospo that includes a bunch of folks like Lynn root from PSF and a couple of other like FOS stalwarts. So there's a lot of like great culture and tools and stuff here. And I'm just here to sort of help glue it all together. Nice. And turn it. Yeah. Are you still over pivotal way? We got acquired by VMware. And in that process, I switched from running our Kubernetes contributor strategy to, um, to the open source program office, which is a change that I, I wanted to make because VMware has loads people doing Kubernetes contributor strategy. They didn't need me as one more. I'm happy to do community strategy within Ospo. So that's what I'm doing. So it's, it's been pretty fantastic. I love it. Yeah. Awesome. Are you still rocking out with the chaos folks a little bit too? Oh yeah. Yep. Just got off a call with them. Like Josh and I were talking about is meeting marathons today. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. Well, I think we've got, uh, the people that we're going to get today. Um, there's not much on the agenda. So I think people were not excited about showing up. Um, the, um, April, are you able to hear at this point? Cool. Okay. Um, I, uh, by the way, um, we are recording, um, the, um, I usual, uh, thing. This is an official meeting the CNCF. We're under the CNCF code of conduct. Be nice. Um, and, um, then let's get started. Um, so, um, for the minutes, I want to do a follow up in the badge proposal, but Dimms is not here. I just pinged him. Let's go back to that if he shows up, um, because we have more follow up to doing that to make it a real proposal. Um, the one bit was for anybody, wasn't it at, um, last week's general contributor strategy meeting. The general, um, SIG felt that we could actually commit to following up with spot checks of the annual reviews in order to verify badges, which was one of the sort of open questions. Um, the, um, so, um, and then we'll talk more about it if Dimms is able to join. Um, if he's not in the room. Um, so, um, let's go over to the leader. Um, the leadership documents that dawn. Yeah. So I would say there are probably not really any changes since, um, since last week. So, uh, Josh, you signed up for adding something about rotation. Yes, there. Where? Oh, under rotation. Best practice for leadership selection. Oh yeah. Um, I thought, sorry. I thought you were going to add a few sentences about your, your thoughts on rotation. So it says something here about how rotation leadership adds. Do I have an old version of this? Yes, you do. Let me refresh. There it is. Look at that. Sorry. I looked at this right before too. And it didn't auto refresh for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. I added a few other minor things here and there. Perfect. Nothing substantial. Awesome. So then I think the only piece that we need. So Jennifer, I think you were going to add something about the transition from existing leadership to new governance. I have not added that. Okay. I will work on that. Perfect. Um, so if, uh, once that gets added, if people are okay with this, I think what I'll do, I'll just give it another quick once over. And then I can. Um, just PR it into the, the repo as a. Resource. Yeah. I mean, I can think of lots of things to add to this, but what's there is a solid initial contact, you know. And then we can just keep adding to it as we go. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm a big fan of getting. Getting enough out there that it's useful for people and then we can continue to add to it as we need to. I mean, nothing's ever done. Right. Cool. Um, okay. Yeah, that's all I have on that. Okay. Um, I added one of the other checklist items there. Um, the what is governance document. Um, the, um, um, because that's on the list and this is just sort of an introduction to our advice on governance. Um, the, um, um, a lot of this is taken from. Uh, the chapter that I wrote for the open source way. Um, with rearranged and with changes made to make it more specifically applicable to the CNCF. Um, the, um, but one of the questions that comes from that is, um, I do have any licensing restrictions. Um, because, because I did copy and paste some material written by other people as well. Um, it was, it was a collaborative effort. And, um, the open source way is, um, I licensed CC share alike. Um, so. Um, one of my questions is going to be whether or not it's okay for us to have material that's licensed that way in our recommendations. The CNCS folks perhaps help advise on. Yeah. Yeah. I guess if we're okay with that, then yes, then the next thing to do would be to escalate it to CNCF leadership slash legal. And make sure that we're not breaking a rule there. Right. I mean, you said you wrote most of it right for the. Yeah, it's just the issue of going back and reverting to only the core material that I wrote and only using that so that we can license it however we want would be a lot of effort. Um, because, um, basically I wrote a draft. Um, Brian, um, uh, Barenhausen edited it. And his contributions are under CC by SA. So I would have to basically undo all those edits, which would be painful. Um, yeah, I mean, I just, I, my personal philosophy is like, you wrote it clearly is. You know, up to a certain standard that we're probably all pretty comfortable with. So, um, then I think it's just a question of like having the legal checkoff that we're doing the right thing. Um, okay. So I will go ahead and escalate that to CNCF and make sure there's no problem with CC by SA. Um, if they're okay with that, then I will just add a line at the bottom of that particular file that says some material from the open source way. Um, the, um, any other thoughts on that? I, one of the things that I feel is missing here is I need to actually tie in some more information about the other sections of our planned advisory outlines. Um, because right now this has roles and paperwork, um, but we need to have stuff on, you know, tied into leadership, tied into some of the other documents that we're planning so that it's more of an, uh, an introduction. Um, okay. I see that probably. Okay. Oh, Dim's left some comments on this. Which is nice. Cool. Okay. Well, if people have other thoughts, um, if people can have anything to contribute to that, then obviously we're in our early draft stage. Um, please do. Um, otherwise I will work on tying in the rest of the bits, um, of the advisory, um, folder, um, into that. So we have lead insta everything. Um, and then go ahead and submit it as a resource PR. Okay. Um, so look at the rest of content tracking. Which would be issue number 37. If people want to flip to that. It's really to volunteer for role definitions, but if not, I have some material for that. I thought the contributor team was going to pick that one up because it's really similar to the contributor ladder. Yeah. I think it was Paris and team that we're going to pick it up. Okay. Yeah. I thought we had some kind of volunteer for that. Because I remember thinking, okay, I'm not doing that. I'm doing policies and procedures because I have a bunch of material for that and then people add more to it. Um, the, um, uh, resource list is actually already started. Um, with a PR. Um, so we have a few other things that aren't attributed. Um, how to shut down archive a project. Um, Um, I think the reason why this falls under governance working group is, um, picking who handles security issues is very definitely a governance issue. Um, particularly it becomes a governance issue if you do it badly. So, um, the, um, um, how to keep your communications open. Um, this would be sort of an advisory, particularly an important advisory for projects that are going from being single organization to multi organization. Um, and, um, and then one of the other things that we need to think about doing is adding templates for all of the things that we're describing. That should go into the new project template. And we haven't even really tackled any of the requirements stuff yet. Feedback on that thoughts on that. Anybody want to volunteer to take any one of the unclaimed sections. Quick question. Um, for the security issue handling guidelines that got in quote, uh, in parentheses sync security. Is that like, is the idea that maybe six security should handle that or. It's the idea that at least six security should be involved. As in whoever's working on this needs to ping them to see if they have. Advice. For projects. Um, you know, ideally it'll turn out that they have a bunch of already written material. That we can just point to. Um, um, you know, and then confine ourselves to just writing up a thing of, Hey, here's how here's ways you can choose a security committee. Um, because part of it, we have to look over things, you know, advice like, Hey, when your project is really small, your security committee will probably also just be the lead maintainers. But as the project gets bigger and more complicated, you're probably going to need a separate security team. Um, and here's how a bunch of different, here's how some of the things that we're talking about. Um, and here's how a bunch of different, here's how some projects handle that. Um, I mean, that's the governance issue that we absolutely can't leave alone. Hopefully six security is material on now. Here's how that team should behave. Um, and if they don't already have that, then somebody would need to ask them to actually prepare that. Um, I can volunteer to take. But how to shut down an archive and then how to keep columns open. Um, do you have like a date by which we're trying to get this all in, or is it just like now? Of course. Hi, as soon as we can. Um, the, um, it's really hard to have. Given the times I try to avoid setting deadlines on things that are not tied to. This is true. Yes. External do or die deadlines. Um, yeah. As long as we're making progress. I mean, I think that's one of the things. Honestly, none of these documents will ever really be finished. Yeah. So, so, I mean, our focus should more like we did with the leadership document of, Hey, let's get a minimum viable document up that projects can look at because it's still going to be more than they have. Um, and then we can just keep. Putting pull requests against those to improve them. Okay. I could, I could tackle the charter one. I'll add myself to the security issue handling guidelines. One on. And sync with the security folks. And that's Jennifer. Just. Yeah. I know it on my video on. Thanks. Yep. And the resource list is just really a group effort. So basically the resource list is a folders already been created with that for that and several documents in the, the contributor strategy repo. And as you run across external items that we're worth looking at for, you know, whichever content you're working on. I add links to this. The, I'm putting myself down to coordinate with contributor growth for the role definition, how to do role definitions. And I'm already on there for paperwork. Okay. So that's most of the things. And then we can sort of knock out all this advisory stuff. And then we can start on some of the requirements stuff. And we're doing it in that order because a lot of the requirements stuff will be like, you need to do this. And here's an advisory document on how to do that. Yeah. The question I had for you is how important are the templates versus these documents? Because obviously all of these documents are going to generate templates. Should we work on getting a core set of docs and then work on getting a core set of templates or should we do them in parallel? Any thoughts? I'd say in parallel is fine. I would say do the thing that you feel like doing at the time. Like if you're really hot to do templates and you're going to knock out a bunch of templates and, you know, make PRs for those, then do it, right? And if you feel like writing instead and you want to write a bunch of stuff, then do it. Given how much content we've assigned ourselves, it's, from my perspective, do the thing that you're actually going to get done. Cool. Sounds good. You know, and so I was saying we're kind of leaving off the requirements stuff, but that's a very soft rule. If you have ideas to write up things for the requirements, particularly some of the requirements that we've had a lot of discussion about already, then don't hold back because, oh, I need to do this other document first. Okay. So that was content tracking. And of course I didn't take notes for any of that because too many screens. Are there other, oh, okay. The adding resources page, by the way, is still open as a pull request. So, because apparently we're waiting on Paris to respond to a bunch of corrections. Okay. So that's still pending as a pull request, and then we'll have something that we can add stuff to. Beyond that we don't have any new issues. So it's just all this content generation. If anybody has time to add any notes on what we just discussed regarding the content generation, please go ahead. Otherwise, do we have any other business? So Dims, by the way, is definitely not joining us. And so I would rather wait and follow up on the badge proposal in places where he can participate, which probably means on Slack. Probably means on Slack. It still feels like something that we want to propose. People were positive about it, both in SIG Contributor Strategy, and there was brief conversation about it in the TOC meeting this morning. And people were very interested in seeing a final proposal. So I do think that we want to go ahead with that, but it needs a lot of fleshing out. Okay, anybody have anything else? None for me. I hope I'm good. Okay. Okay, well, thanks all. No harm in making a meeting shorter in our meeting days. If you can use the extra half an hour to do a little bit of writing or review of either of those documents. Don, well, wait, we're waiting for one bit in that, in your document and then you can submit as a PR, right? Exactly. Okay. We will get that set up. Cool. Okay. Sounds good. Thanks everybody. And look for, look for conversation in Slack about the batch proposal. Well, see you all later. Bye everyone.