 Welcome, and thanks for joining us this Monday. I cannot believe it's another start to a brand new week, but I am honored to have back with us today, Mary Gleason on the nonprofit show. Mary is a consultant and coach. I have been following her since we met each other through another mutual professional connection in your community of Seattle. And I follow your newsletters, and you are so right, Mary. I am reading them. I am liking them. And I'm also loving them because the art of detangling is a newsletter that you sent out or an electronic communication piece that you sent out. And so that's what you're here to talk to us about. So Mary is not new to us. I think this is your third appearance on the nonprofit show, and we are just honored to have you here. Julia Patrick, thanks for creating this fantastic platform. Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, and I'm Jared Ransom, your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. Julia and I are so honored to have the continued support from our presenting sponsors. Thank you so very much to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, nonprofit nerd, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, and the nonprofit thought leader. If you've missed any of our episodes, are you like what you're hearing from our guest, Mary Gleason today, you can find us on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, as well as Vimeo. And if you haven't heard, we're now on podcast. So if you're a podcaster or a listener of podcasts like I am, go ahead and tune in and have the little person in your phone queue up the nonprofit show, and we're streaming on many of those channels. So queue us up there. Mary, I hope I did you justice, but I am just so honored to have you back, my woo-woo friend. And you take that as a compliment just as I take my nonprofit nerdiness as a compliment, but you are founder CEO of Mary Gleason, consulting and coaching. Welcome back. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. And as I was saying earlier, thanks for reading what I put out there. I am so excited to be here. Yes. So for those of you that wanna tune in more to Mary, make sure that you sign up for her newsletters. This is exactly where this topic is coming from. Before we dive into the topic, Mary, go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, how you serve the nonprofit community and what type of consulting and coaching you provide. So I have been in the nonprofit sector, largely as part of the leadership team, nonprofit management team, that sort of thing for 35 years. And in that time, I also... Well, let me just back up. After a while, you get to the point where you just see the bigger picture. Just see the bigger picture. And so many nonprofits have a tendency to say, stay in your lane over here or whatever kind of thing. And it's like, look, if things aren't right in the program sector, I can't go out and raise money for that. We need to have the bigger picture kind of thing. And somebody's like, you know what, Mary? That's what consultants do. And I go, I'm on it. So I've been consulting the better part of 15 years. And on the side, don't tell anyone on the side, I was a practicing psychic and hypnotherapist. And I finally decided I'm bringing those together because when you call on me, you get all of me. You don't get parts of me. And so I've started working a lot with, I say executives, but it's anyone who wants that next level of success in their job, in their personal life or whatever, find a way to tap into their intuition the other half of your brain with all of that knowledge right there that isn't data and start to marry them in a more conscious way. So that's my way of saying, I'm an executive intuition coach. My coaching does not just extend to the nonprofit side but my consulting does. I do a lot of facilitations and I do almost all my work via Zoom. So I have clients everywhere. That is fantastic. And what a great combination. I think it truly complements one another. And I'm curious if you've seen a lot more people, executives, professionals really dive into this combination during the pandemic, the COVID-19 pandemic. Have you seen more people really like lean into that intuition side? Yes, I have. And it's not like they're saying, help me be woo-woo because that's not it. And for your listeners who don't know, I have a book out called Being Woo-Woo in an Engineering World, which you can also see on my website along with all my blogs. But what you've seen is people saying, something's not working anymore and I don't know what it is. Absolutely. And so my thing is, what is your body telling you? What is your intuition telling you? Because they got away from that pressure cooker of the office with deadlines and data and everybody had to make room for their employees to have a full life. Well, speaking of a full life, when some things can get muddy and we're talking about detangling, that art of detangling, let's dive deep into the mud hole here and let's talk about what creates that sticky situation or sticky situations, plural? What have you seen and what's really creating these moments that require detangling? You know, it's funny because if you think about a snarl in your hair and you need to get the tangle out kind of thing, sometimes you get something stuck in there, some syrup, some gum. Forget gum, you'll never get it out. It's left on at all weird or something like that. In the executive world, in the nonprofit organization, it's usually an amalgamation, kicking the can down the road. Let's just get this done. We'll worry about that later. We'll worry about that later. We'll worry about that later until you had a wall of resistance that says, can't go any further till you address this huge ugly mess that you've created and it can be within a department. It can be within an organization where leadership is just so focused on here and now. They're not taking the time or building in the time necessary to not create that huge tangle at the end. And the one thing, yes, we have grant deadlines and blah, blah, blah. However, very often deadlines are arbitrary and we take them as gospel rather than saying this isn't working. Let's move it out a little bit and take a little more time to tease things out and keep them running smoothly now. You can only keep pushing off barriers for so long before they become impenetrable walls. Does that make sense? It does make sense, but I have a little anxiety when you said deadlines are not gospel because as a type A personality, I'm like, but they are gospel. So how do we even consider moving them? So I would love it because this is new for me. And again, if you could just talk a little bit about like, well, how do we address the elephant in the room? Or as you said, kicking the can down the road, like how do we really sit back and say, hey, let's wave a little red flag here and address something that needs to be addressed before it really does turn into something huge? So one of my favorite examples of that would be like your database. You can buy the package, you get it all set up, if you don't pay for the training, or you get a new person in and the person who had the position before got the training, but not the new person. And so what they do is create a series of workarounds, downloading data into Excel spreadsheets and matching and stuff. And there's always a certain amount you have to do, but you've got this giant system designed to support you and you are trying to support it because you don't have any clue how to really work this machine, right? And then what happens is all the data gets bottlenecked into somebody's idea of how to sort it one person and they get the flu. And now nobody can get the reports they need, they can't get the information they need, and it's a giant mess. So I think that's a good metaphor for a lot of what happens is, I just need to meet this deadline. I can't, you know, there's this elephant sitting here and I can't address it right now because I gotta dot some I's and cross some P's and something that eventually are gonna catch up with you. And the thing about an elephant in the room, it's literally, it gets bigger, it gets louder, it takes up more space, it takes up more oxygen, you know, kind of thing. So if you can start addressing it when it shows up bitty, bitty kind of thing, the solutions tend to be shorter term. You know, they tend to be easier. Like, okay, let's just put a hold on this. We'll bump out the timelines and we'll send so-and-so for training. Right. Or we'll send people for training because that way they'll always be a backup, you know. There's some crossover there, which would always be helpful in our nonprofit sector. But how many nonprofits have a database person? Many. Yeah, and so, and then the other thing is it creates a power imbalance because now this person holds all the power to the information. Very interesting. Well, I feel like there's been a lot of sticky situations. There's been a lot of kicking the can down the road. When we started these episodes in March of 2020, again, we're marching towards our 600th episode. This is your third appearance. And I do think that so many organizations press pause or they just, you know, took this thing. It could be an issue, it could be an opportunity, however you choose to use those words and just sat it on the back burner and said, you know, we'll get to that later, just as you mentioned. And I think that, you know, later is now and what we're realizing is these sticky situations as you've identified, Mary, are getting bigger and bigger. I kind of see this snowball effect, right? Where you just roll it and you roll it and you roll it and it just gets bigger and bigger. So how do we use communication in this path as we navigate forward? Is this written? Is this verbal? Like, and who are we communicating with? This is a big ball of questions, but, you know, separate this out for us. I think the best thing to do is approach it with a sense of curiosity and not blame. So who's responsible for those heads will roll kind of nonsense, doesn't work, okay? If you've got something that's blocking you this that big, there was a lot of people in on it somewhere along the way. And I have found that the number one thing that is a surefire red flag is when people don't listen, you know, leaders don't listen, the staff that work for them. I think it's resistance in their home, but the system can't do that. I heard of you complaining. I'm tired to know how much we spent on this kind of thing. And so we don't listen, the people who are on the front lines who are telling you like it is or how it's working out for them rather than you telling them how it should be working for them. Right. You know, so we like to go to the personality and that never worked. Do you have, oops, sorry, I was curious if you have any suggestions on how we can, you know, elicit responses that help us with those frontline individuals to say, this is what we need, this is what would make the process easier, more streamlined and efficient. Like, how do you utilize the communication from the start? Hopefully before we're waving those red flags and saying, we have a problem. Right. Well, honestly, I do think it's approaching it with curiosity, saying where are, you know, and having regular check-ins. Where are you bumping up against some resistance from what it is you're trying to do? What would make it flow easier? Keep it out of the personal. Using those I statements is so important because I know if you're the grant writer trying to get information from the program, people can sometimes be painful. And it's not that they don't think you're important. It's that you're not the client sitting before them in need of their immediate attention kind of thing. So how do we create communication time to set in, to get the data? How do we explain how the data that the social workers collect informs what the grant writers can write and that that money then pays their salaries? I mean, there's a lot of people who don't get how all of this is interconnected. And I think it's starting to set up really on instead of avoiding problems, you know, identifying issues and solutions. And it's really amazing when you ask people saying, how could we solve this? I think I got a lot of ideas, believe them. That's right. Well, it's funny that you use that example of grant writing in the program side because many moons ago, many, many moons ago, that was one of my biggest issues was I was the grant writer for an organization and I could never, and I know that's a strong word, I could never get the information I needed. I know never, ever, ever from the program team. And so I found myself on really tight deadlines again, type A stress, like it was horrible timing for me. So I built in like a two week buffer when I could write to help with those challenges, but you're right, there's so much going on in our sector. There's so much going on in our day to day world. And so having those communications and, you know, addressing something with curiosity, that's a big takeaway for me. Curiosity, not blame. Right, and empathy. Empathy. Saying, you know, not getting back to me, wonder what's happening for them. Right. Maybe it's something I can help with. Maybe all this stuff is sitting in this file somewhere and I can just go pull the file and get the information I need. I know that sounds weird, but yeah. I'm actually envisioning paper, so how silly is that? But, you know, somewhere we can access the data and help them and help ourselves, you know, and having communication about what's really up for you, what are you seeing happening on your end, creating empathy, and then somebody in your position as the grant writer being able to say, if we don't make the deadlines, they don't accept it late and then I'll be behind on my goals, you won't get paid and I'll get fired. That's right. That's right. So creating that empathy and that understanding rather than assuming it exists and they're deciding to ignore you anyway. So with all of this, I can only imagine as we're navigating forward, we're communicating through this, egos might get in the way, right? We, tempers might get in the way, anger, I mean, you name the feelings and they might show up, that we're human. And also through these last three years, I always say, pandemics, plural, many of us, every person has been through a lot of challenging, trying times, personally, professionally. And so there have been some really heated moments that I know I've been a part of that weren't always perhaps civil. So how can we maintain a space of being civil through this art of detangling that you've created for us? Like it personally. Oh, it's so easy. You make it sound so easy, Mary. Well, you know, I learned a long time ago, I actually drove a boss of mine, absolutely nuts, because she would come down the hall and sit in my office after hours and just unload. I would just look at her like, okay, I would let her talk. And she would say, why aren't you responding? And I said, there's nothing I can do with any of this except listen. And she was looking for an argument. She was looking, unload, you know, even more than she was doing kind of thing. And it drove her nuts. And somebody said to me, how can you stay calm when she's doing that? Cause it's not mine. Yeah. It's not mine. When she comes to me with something of mine, then I'll respond. People who show up cranky and mad and they're starting their day like that, how can it possibly be your fault? Right, right. You know, something else is happening. So I would say the number one thing is to don't take it personally. The number two thing is to make eye statements. I don't understand. I get upset when, you know, I've had a bad morning. Communicate with what's true for you. And then when you're listening, even if the person's going, you didn't do your job, you didn't do this, you just, we are all always talking about ourselves. Let it go, let it go. And keeping that distance, but not detachment. You care about what's being said. Listen for the pieces that are correct, you know, and do correctly impact you and speak from there. So is this the same whether it's, you know, a supervisor and someone who reports to them? I mean, we have board involved. So how does the dynamics take play in this when it comes to staying civil, the communication, all of the art of detangling? Is this like a one-size-fits-all for every level? Or are there different tricks and techniques that we might wanna consider in these different situations? Well, I've always said, you know, managing upward in art form. And when I would interview people to hire them, I would say, how good are you at managing up? Please don't assume I remember what's on your desk. I do not. Right. I'm busy with what's on my desk. So how do you manage upward kind of thing? And if somebody wasn't experienced with that and want that, I would tell them the best way to communicate with me. And I think it doesn't matter what level you're on. You have to have the understanding that the other person that's having a day doesn't involve you or that you have no control over. I think boards in particular need to listen in a way that isn't a gang. I think sometimes boards feel like a gang, hanging up on you kind of thing, rather than individually listening for how they can be helpful or what information they need to better understand what's happening for you. So even though they're a group up to the individuals, this is them, do you have questions? Do you understand what I'm saying? Honestly, it's basic marriage counseling 101. Listen, reflect back what you heard, then you talk and the person has to reflect back what you said, then you can dive in. Because so often what that person's saying, we're taking so personally, we're not hearing what's behind it for them. Well, and I love the baseline you said that as you were saying about this previous example of your supervisor and people would say, how do you stay so calm? It's not about me. And it could be traffic because now many people are going back into the office. It could be that they didn't have time to make their coffee or it could be anything at home. I know now with our summer months, many of our children are also at home. So trying to figure out our scheduling and a little bit of everything. So there's a lot kind of stacked on top of one another that can really get you going. But I cannot only imagine that as we continue forward Mary in this time of uncertainty, even now there's so many people testing positive with COVID-19 that we're still navigating how we move forward, how we manage our projects. Cause as you said, especially in the data position often there's one person and that's a huge dependency. And so if we're relying on one person for any specific task or project and there's a looming deadline, I can only imagine the energy that's being raised and the anxiety that's being raised with that. And so there's a lot of egos that jump in the path and the journey cause they're all human. Yeah, absolutely. And ego problem is one that's an individual journey and can be really difficult to navigate with somebody else, but understand it comes from deep insecurity. When somebody's got a huge ego, they're covering up something they believe to be true about themselves that isn't positive about themselves kind of thing. And listen to what they're saying, listen to the tone that they're using. And honestly, here's a little trick. If they're talking like a five year old that's about how old they were when disruption entered their life. Talk to that five year old, don't talk to the 50 year old standing there kind of thing. If they are prone to tantrums. I mean, I've had that kind of manager too kind of thing. It's their problem. It's really not yours. And I know that sounds silly, but honestly the truth is if you're in a position where things are that far out of control for you from your perspective, move on. There's nicer places to be. And stay civil, it's really important. One of the things that I've learned over my own personal development journey is really asking the question of what role would you like for me to play in this conversation? Would you like for me to listen? Would you like for me to respond with some suggestions? What role would you like for me to play? That works great in my personal life. And guess what? It's working well in my professional life as well. I have a little 3-H moniker that my friend's husband shared with me. It's called Here, Help, Heal. What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just listen? Are you asking me for help? Do you want me to take care of the situation? I'm not saying I'm gonna do that, but what's your goal? Here, Help, and Heal. I like that. Well, Mary, you're always filled with so much enlightenment. I just love what you put out your newsletters. So for those of you that are listening, Mary Gleason, founder and CEO, consulting and coaching. So I referenced her newsletters. So make sure you sign up for that. You can get it, I'm sure, on marygleasonconsulting.com. Absolutely. And Mary, remind us where we can get your book. So on my website or on Amazon, Being Woo-Woo in an Engineered World. It's like when you... That's a fantastic topic. And I think it's a great topic. And I think we added it to our book list as well. On the American Profit Academy website. So thank you for all that you do. And of course, right now this is happening when you've got a whirlwind going on within your own life. So we're so grateful that you carved out some time to be present with us today in this conversation. Well, thank you. I look forward to talking with you again. Please have me back. I love it here. Absolutely. Well, Julia Patrick, we can thank her for creating this platform of conversation. And I'm just so grateful to be a co-host along with Julia each and every day. As we move forward, thanks to our presenting sponsors. For those of you watching, you can see the logos on the screen. Those of you listening, I'm going to give a shout out to Glimmering American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, Your Part-Time Controller, Staffing Boutique, and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. And as I mentioned, Mary's been on a few times. We are so grateful for these continued conversations that we have. And again, just thank you so much for all of you that have joined us today. We hope that you'll join us again tomorrow. We have quite a lineup this week. So please do join us. And we're just so thrilled to have each and every one of you with us. Mary, thank you so much for your time. The art of detangling is something that I think we all need to practice. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your time. Thank you. Take care. Yeah. And for all of you, please stay well so you can do well. Thanks everyone. We'll see you back here tomorrow.