 Hello and you're all very welcome to this morning's webinar to coincide with the State of the European Union Address by the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen. I'm Martine Sturden, I'm delighted to be chairing this event which has been jointly organized by the Institute of International and European Affairs, the European Commission Representation in Ireland and the European Parliament liaison office here in Dublin. Now today Ursula von der Leyen is expected to reveal further details of the European Green Deal and the new digital strategy in her address to the European Parliament. COVID-19 is also expected to feature very strongly, so to Brexit given the British government's determination to press ahead with its bill which would overrule elements of the withdrawal agreement or as one a British government minister conceded and admitted in Parliament would break international law in quote a limited and specific way. Now in terms of this morning's format we are initially going to get the assessment and expectations of our panelists in terms of what a Ursula von der Leyen's address will focus on. Then at a quarter past eight we will go over to the European Parliament which is live streaming the event and then at a nine o'clock approximately we're told Ursula von der Leyen is expected to conclude her address and then we'll go back to our panelists to get their assessments and their verdicts. Now we're proud to say that we have a and delighted to say that we have a very large audience tuning in this morning and they will also get an opportunity to participate in this morning's webinar. You can send in your comments and particularly your questions if for our panelists by using the question and answer function on your Zoom screens and please send in your questions throughout the morning. We're going to leave about 20 minutes at the end to discuss them with our panelists. One final piece of housekeeping this morning. You are also invited to participate in this morning's webinar on Twitter and you can use the handles at IIEA for the European Commission representation in Ireland. The handle is at EU or Ireland. What the handle for the European Parliament liaison office in Dublin is at EP in Ireland. So without further ado let me introduce our guest this morning. Senator Regina Darty is the leader of the Shannon. She previously served as Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection up till June of this year which was a key and pivotal department in terms of the government's response to COVID-19. She is also a former government chief whip and a former Minister of State at the Department of Antiquity. Our next guest is David Sullivan who currently serves as chair of the European Policy Centre's governing board. He is a former EU ambassador to the United States. He's also previously served in many high-profile and senior positions within the European Commission, including Director General for Trade, Secretary General of the European Commission and Chief of Staff to Commission President Romano Brody. And our final speaker is Dr. Mary C. Murphy who holds a Jan Monet chair in European integration and is a lecturer in politics with the Department of Government and Politics at University College Cork. She specializes in the study of the EU and Northern Ireland politics and her most recent book, Europe and Northern Ireland's Future Negotiating Brexit's Unique Case, was published in April 2018. You're all very welcome. So, during to you Senator Darty, what are your expectations this morning? I suppose the State of the Union address is normally used to look at what has been achieved and then to look forward of all of the things that normally would include the economy, climate change, unemployment, migration across Europe, to name a few. And that's what I would expect today if the whole world and our whole way of life hasn't been upheavalled since February. So what I do genuinely expect is a real focus on how the European Union and indeed the world is going to live with COVID to set out our plans. But I also know that the extra finances that have been raised to secure recovery for the European Union will allow Ursula Van der Leyen to continue pushing the agenda that she has. And I think we've spoken a lot in the last number of weeks about a two-pronged approach in Europe. It's been led by the French, the priorities obviously about economic recovery, but also about an ecological transition. And I think we need to see the strong plans that the European Union has to change our way of life, notwithstanding COVID to make sure that we reach our targets, our 20 targets, our 20, 50 targets. And I would like to see that later today. David, you have, with this many speeches by Presidents of the European Commission from within the Commission and outside. This is a certainly different backdrop to today's address. What are your expectations today? Yes, well, I mean, I think it is a challenging moment because the expectations are high. As Regina has said, COVID has dominated everything. And the economic crisis and the recovery will be the key theme and people are going to want to hear from President Van der Leyen how the Commission is going to take forward the very large part of money that is now potentially available. How is this going to be used? How is this going to reinforce the Green Deal and the digital agenda? But also, I think she can't avoid dealing with Europe in the world because global Europe is part of this. So I'm sure we will see references to China. We just had a summit with China this week, which was quite difficult at times. The transatlantic relations, which are absolutely critical, but going through a very difficult phase and everything on hold really until we get the elections. We have the neighborhood, you know, there was a crisis over the accession talks last year, salvaged to a certain extent by proposal from the Commission. But we have big tensions with Russia over the Navalny poisoning. We have real tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean, looking at Greece and Turkey, which I'm sure she will have to mention. Africa has been a key point of focus also, but I'm sure she will also speak out strongly in favor of the multilateral institutions, the WTO, the UN, Europe has probably the only region of the world left really trying to defend multilateralism and trying to promote global solutions to problems rather than countries or regions going their own way. But that's just a checklist of what I think she could touch on. I'll be interested to see how she weaves all that into into into a speech. And Mary, in terms of today's address, it is unusual circumstances with a pandemic and also we have Brexit, a topic that you're well used to addressing, but she she has many challenges as she heads into this address. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I would dwell just for a moment on the sort of the broader context here. I mean, the first state of the EU address was delivered in 2010. So this is a relatively new institutional innovation, but it is becoming an important institutional location in the EU calendar. And it's it's important to remember the rationale for that innovation when it was first initiated in 2010. It was rooted in provisions in the Lisbon Treaty, and it was really about making the EU more democratic and more transparent and more efficient. So in the broadest sense, it was about supporting and reclaiming the legitimacy of the EU on the back of what we would term the age of crisis, which which began in 2007, 2008, with the Eurozone crisis. Now, that's a very tall order for a speech needless to say, but but she will do what will be expected in terms of dwelling on some of her achievements, talking about the current challenges she faces and then connecting with the priorities for the EU's future. And she'll also be talking to a wide audience. So she'll be talking to the other EU institutions, to the member states, but to the citizens as well, although, of course, we could probably have very separate discussion about the extent to which citizens tune in to this kind of an event. But it is her first speech, it's her maiden speech. And you'll remember her appointment wasn't without a degree of drama this time last year, when she only narrowly secured the support of the European Parliament. And so I think in that context, but also against that very challenging backdrop of crisis, which has intensified now with the COVID-19 crisis and that she will want to establish her leadership credentials. And she is going to talk about the headline achievements like the Green Deal, like the Recovery Fund, like the Digital Age, etc., etc. And there they are in many ways substantial achievements, but they don't necessarily go to the heart of some of the more fundamental and maybe even existential challenges that the EU is facing in the current era. And these are issues which the EU has been slow to confront. So issues, some of the issues David has already mentioned, but issues like rule of law, issues like the refugee crisis, issues like future enlargement. And I think these are the issues which will be most challenging for her. And they require a pretty robust degree of political assertiveness. And they require, I think, an unequivocal commitment to solidarity as well, and maybe even a degree of moral leadership. So again, it's a very tall order trying to weave all of that into a single speech, but I think it would be very interesting to see what approach Ursula van der Leyen takes today in delivering this maiden speech. And as we were mentioning there, this is being made against the backdrop of Covid and Brexit. But Senator Donnerty, Ursula van der Leyen has very ambitious plans in relation to the Green Deal, to the European Green Deal. And obviously, she wants to press ahead with that agenda and make her mark and set her tone for her term. Yeah, I think sometimes when we talk about economic growth, the climate action in the European context, they're portrayed either out of fear or maybe people being mischievous as being competing elements. I think she'll need to very, very clearly set out today that our changes with regard to that we need to make as a European Union with regard to climate action will not spell unemployment. It will actually spell employment opportunities. It will not spell a dirt and economic growth. It will actually improve the European Union's finances and it'll have a positive impact on our way of life. So I think she'll set that out today because I think the Green Deal that we have seen being unanimously adopted is a really ambitious programme for the European Union. And that's something that we've all bought into. So I think she'll be very, very strong on that today. I hope so anyway. And perhaps to spell out further her plans in that area. David, she is in crisis management in mode, and so is the European Commission. And yet she has also a manner of difficulties coming ahead, difficult trade talks in terms of China, which you mentioned before, the US and also other blocks. Can you can you outline how difficult those trade talks are going to be and how they also fuse with her plans for a greener agenda because they will have implications on those trade talks? Well, they will. I mean, I think the single biggest challenge in trade return will be the United States. We don't know what's going to happen on the 3rd of November. We have maybe our own preferences, but the American people will ultimately decide if we have four more years of President Trump and I think we're into a very confrontational trade agenda. If we get President Biden, the tone and the language will be much softer, but the substance will remain difficult. And we will in some ways, my personal view is that we will actually maybe find it harder to deal with Mr. Biden because we won't be able to just dismiss him and say, well, we don't agree, and it's impossible. And then we're going to have to figure out what compromises we're willing to actually make in order to achieve trade peace with the United States, if you like. But more generally, I think there are some difficult issues. I mean, the big difficult issue that I see, two big issues I see are the digital tax and the carbon water adjustment mechanism, which are both announced as the funders of the recovery fund. And yet these are going to be quite controversial with our trading partners if we can't manage to make them perfectly WTO compatible. And so that that could be quite a difficult agenda in the next year or two. That's very interesting. Mary Trinity, you mentioned rule of law and Ursula von der Leyen mentioned that in the European Parliament ahead of her election last year. Now, that is linked or she said she would stand by linking it to the multi-annual framework and the seven year budget. How difficult is that going to be? And exceptionally difficult, I think, some of the agreements that we've seen around linking of EU payments to rule of law issues, I suppose, was based on a watered down conditionality clause or provision, which has yet to be clarified and operationalised. And there are all sorts of difficulties there in terms of doing that because Member States have very different priorities and very different positions. So she does have a job on her hands in terms of making that concrete. And it'll be interesting today to see if she has any contribution to make in terms of how the European Commission might go about cementing that over the course of the next few months in particular. And Regina Daherty, in terms of Brexit, it is the elephant in the room and all of what's happening this week has certainly created further uncertainty for the Commission, for the EU. And what do you expect to hear from her in terms of what's happening with the British government? I think she needs to be forceful and firm, yet knowing at the back of her mind that all of us wanted to see a positive conclusion, even in a very short space of time that we have between now and the end of December until the clock runs out. So it's a very fine balance. But the State of the Union is an opportunity for the European Union president to speak to her people, to become closer to the people. And I think one of the most important things she needs to do today is to convey a sense of hope, notwithstanding Brexit, notwithstanding the fact that we're living with COVID in a new world. She needs to give reassurances that the EU is not going to leave anybody behind, even given the financial considerations that we in Ireland and other European countries, not to the same extent, are going to be affected by Brexit. So what I want to see is a very firm stance in dealing with it, but a very positive attitude that we do still want to get a positive trade deal between the end, between the United Kingdom and the European Union, however difficult that might be. David, what has happened in terms of Brexit, in terms of the British government's staunch stance in relation to its bill also complicates a negotiations on a trade deal and has wider implications. Could you go through those? Not that we need to be a depressowary in the morning, but I suppose we need to face up to the possibility of it. Yeah, I mean, the reality, of course, is that any deal which is doable now, as Regina said in the very short time frame, will only yield a little bit of value added relative to the difficulty we're all going to face on the 1st of January, when the UK finally departs a single market on the Western Union, and all of the additional checks and bureaucracy and form filling is going to be is going to go ahead anyway. And even if we have a trade deal, the best it will do is hopefully eliminate tariffs, which at least is a complication that businesses could do without, but it won't do a lot more than that on, except, and here I agree that with Regina, the hope would be that you get a slightly more up to a slightly more positive climate out of this. Now, frankly, given all that's happened in the last week or so, maybe a triumph of hope over expectation to see that you can turn this situation into something positive in a matter of weeks, but I would be actually surprised if Ursula von der Leyen actually spent a lot of time on Brexit, I would imagine that she will, I think she will give up, she will mention, of course, but I don't think it'll be a big part of her speech and I don't think it should be, frankly, because there's not a huge amount that can be said this morning, which is, you know, which hasn't already been said. I might just add to that, Martina, if I may, I think it's Brexit is one of the areas where we've seen a strong degree of solidarity. It is an area where the 27 EU member states have come together successfully and effectively and they have been led by von der Leyen and other senior officials in that respect. So, like David says, the need to dwell on it extensively in today's address isn't necessarily warranted because you have that established pattern of cooperation and support there already. And interestingly, in her address to the European Parliament last year, it didn't feature significantly either. Mary, do you think this is cluster or do you think that they will shape a deal at the end of the day? It'll go down to the wire, because we have been here before, but it is certainly worrying in terms of what's happened over the last week. Yeah, I think up to this point, I would always have been of the strong view that a deal was possible, even when circumstances might have hinted at otherwise. But the events of the last week have been of a different nature and they have been of a different intensity. And I would now have questions about the extent to which a deal can be pinned down at this very late stage. If one is pinned down, as David and Regina have said, it will be a very slimmed down free treaty or free trade arrangement. But there's a lot to play for in the next few weeks, another couple of rounds of discussions. I think keeping the tone, keeping the atmosphere, as calm, as polite and as constructive as possible, as imperative at this point, and trying to take some of the sting out of the discussions would be helpful. And that might be something that our Slavondrilaan tries to do today in her speech, to try and calm the water, so to speak, to create a kind of an environment and an atmosphere which might be conducive to reaching some form of limited agreement in the next few weeks. But that's probably the most we can expect, I think, at this point. We should note that there is still no sign of her beginning her address yet. So she is keeping us all waiting. But we have plenty to talk about because there's so many issues that could feature. And we know one, Brexit may not feature significantly, but we know the Green Deal is going to feature significantly. And as David touched on earlier, Regina, there are some issues within that Green Deal that will be interesting for businesses, to put it mildly, and also for the farming community, and also for environmentalists. So there is areas of positivity and also concern for various sectors in Ireland when you agree with that. Yeah, so I suppose the Green Deal is Europe's plan to be carbon neutral by 2050. And with the emphasis of making that a just transition and not leaving anybody behind, as I mentioned earlier before. The farm-to-fork strategy is supporting farmers and providing us Europeans with affordable, nutritious, and sustainable food. And I expect a lot of hope to be given during President's speech today to our farming communities. And again, for themselves, how to have a just transition from how we use farm to how there is an expectation that we will farm in the future. So I think there'll be a lot of emphasis on the Green Deal today. There'll be a lot of emphasis on changing our economy to become that new green European union that we strive to be between now and 2050. And also the farming community will be very much looking for further details about the just transition fund to support regions affected. David, in terms of carbon emissions trading system and extending it to cover other areas, this will be of concern to some industries, but also support it by many who want to see real reform in this area. Yes, I mean, I agree completely with Regina. This commission has taken a huge gamble, which is basically to say that the Green Deal, the combination of climate change issues, technology, the massive technological revolution we're living through, is Europe's opportunity to get ahead of the curve, if you like, and to place ourselves in a better position to profit from all of this, but also to position ourselves globally as a leader in this massive transition, which is coming at us whether we want it or not. It's not a question of do we want it or do we not. It's a question of how do we ship it, how do we make it, put it at the service of people and do that in a socially and economically just way. But there are going to be challenges on the global stage. I mean, the Paris Agreement is a solid basis for global cooperation, but it doesn't answer all the questions. And of course, the big question is, the more we do, does that disadvantage us against our major competitors such as China and the United States? Personally, I don't think so. I think it's the opposite. I think the more we embrace green technology, the more we embrace what is needed to address the issues of climate change, the stronger we will be. And we will be, all the evidence is that economically, this is an investment that pays off. But we are going to have some tensions with our trading partners with some of the measures. For example, if you want, and I famously remembered when we tried to extend the emissions trading to airlines, which got us into hot water with just about every country on the planet. So there are going to be some difficult moments as we try to take the lead in this and then try to protect ourselves from people outside taking on fair advantage of the measures we have decided domestically. And Mary, in terms of her ambitious plans in this area, she has done something sometimes politicians don't do. She has set specific targets, which you can be judged by, which is a difficult thing if you are not successful. Absolutely. And some expectation that she might even revise some of those targets in today's speech, but that remains to be seen. I mean, I do think this is all part of, this is the beginning of Urs Le Van der Leyen trying to establish a legacy as well for her period as EU Commission President. But it's also about the EU in the broader sense. It's about getting the EU to the point where it can be respected as a global leader. And it's about reclaiming some of the losses that the EU has endured in recent years since the beginning of the eurozone crisis. So there is a much bigger project within which the Green Deal is situated. And Mary, we're just going to put you there because she has just entered the parliament and she is preparing now to address the European Parliament so we're going to head over to the European Parliament for the State of the European Union addressed by the President of the European Commission, Urs Le Van der Leyen. Now, that was a very strong and wide-ranging speech. It may have been delayed, but she certainly made up the time and lots more very strong comments there on a European health union on the Green Deal and more pledges and commitments on also making this Europe's digital decade. Also, she had time to talk a little bit more about digital taxation, trade deals, foreign policy. And there were particularly strong words on human rights and the need for Europe to call out abuses, whether it be in China, Hong Kong, or on other places, migration, rule of law, Brexit, of course. It was such a very wide-ranging speech and very strong pledges and commitments. Over to you, Regina Daherty. I should make a point that we will not have time for individual questions, keep sending them in and we'll incorporate them into the discussion. Regina. Thanks, Martina. I think that was just an incredible, wonderful speech and genuinely displays the powerhouse and the political force that Urs Le Van der Leyen is and the ambition that she has for the entire European Union. As a former European Affairs Minister, as she was to, I think it's really important that she let out with the minimum wage. Ireland is in the fortunate position of having the second highest minimum wage in Europe, but it's still not enough and we still have so much more to go and it's lovely to hear and talk about. She's going to enshrine that across European legislation and also the need to make work pay. We've had that debate here for many, many years that our social security system somehow can never be put into a position where it encourages people not to work. And I think that's really a pillar where she's talking about. The strong economic European Union next generation EU, she talks about the recovery instrument of the 750 billion, the three pillars, the supporting the member states to recover the kickstarting of our European economies again and helping private investment. But I think the most important thing she spoke about today and she flavored it and it tapers through different strands of her speech was that young people and the next generation are not going to have to pay for the really strong responses that are going to be needed and arise it from COVID and from Brexit. And also she finished up there with the promise of opportunity. We all have to have hope. There's an undercurrent of unease across the entire planet at the moment because of what we're living through, but we have to have hope and I think she enshrined that. Mary mentioned earlier on that we may see some revisions to targets today. Well, by God have we seen some revisions to target. We've gone from 40% emissions up to 55 and that might go down well in certain corners in Ireland but certainly obviously has a strong backing of the European Union. We're going to have our air pollution, create a million jobs, create a million electric charging points. And actually interesting, she made the target and set herself the objectives of changing EU legislation around climate and energy between now and next summer. That is really ambitious given the restraints that we're going under at the moment. And actually I think the thing for me, I think it's hugely important is that 37% of the next EU generation deal is going to be financed through the green bond. We are world leaders on this and she's only set our stall out to be even further. And finally just to show the touching and the humanity and the emotional intelligence that she has, the really strong statement that she made about Belarus, about the fearless women's movement, about the people and the democracy and how it has to be supported and how much the European Union does support it. The really strong comments that she made and the message that she's reiterated from Margaret Thatcher is that Britain has a responsibility to live up to the withdrawal agreement of the international treaties that it has already signed up to and that the clock is ticking and just to put that marker down. And the lovely way she wrapped up her speech with John Hume's legacy is that the difference is the essence of our humanity and how she led that into the closing of her speech. That was a wonderful speech with real clear definition of where we're going to go for the next six months and the next five years. And I'm really excited about this presidency. Now, David, that was certainly a tour de force and a very strong speech. And she went much further in many areas, I suppose, that many people might have predicted. Would you agree with that? And you've been here before. How did her speech compare to others? Well, I think it was an excellent speech. I agree very much with what Regina said and it was delivered with conviction. And she took some fairly tough stands of principle. The language on Belarus was very strong, I agree. But so was the language on Russia, which was also tough. And the reference to Nord Stream 2, which is that project of Germany, the call to go to qualified majority voting in certain areas of foreign policy, notably sanctions and declarations on human rights, which is something proposed by the previous commission. She was very good. I thought in saying solidarity with Cyprus and Greece in the conflict in the Middle East. And I must say, I think what she did at the end on racism and LGBT issues was very courageous. And so I think full credit to her. Of course, the difficulty is, and migration, by the way, I thought she was excellent on migration. I thought that was particularly powerful and something I personally feel very strongly about, that this is a European problem. We cannot let the countries who geography places in the frontline bear the brunt of this. And it has consequences also for us in Ireland, I believe. But the issue is, can you get the member states to follow? When a president of the United States made a declaration about what they intend to do, a lot of the time they have the power to make it happen. The power of the commission is more persuasion and initiative and leadership. But I think she showed that in spades today. And I must say, I was very impressed. And yes, on the issue of migration, she said saving lives at sea is not optional. This is a European challenge. Very, very strong words from the president of the commission, Mary. And on key areas, including some that you have a particular interest in rule of law, Brexit, and her commitments on so many issues, and clear pledges too. Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say this was quite a remarkable speech, a very long speech. But a speech that I think it was grounded in Ursula von der Leyen trying to situate the EU as a global leader on a number of fronts, particularly climate change and the Green Deal, but also in relation to digital and also in relation to trade as well. So she was quite an amount of the speech was dedicated to those particular themes. And she was strong on them and she was action-orientated on them as well, which I think is significant. And she's an excellent orator, an excellent communicator. And she did very well in terms of using three languages as well to deliver this address. But I think where she particularly stood out was in relation to migration and also in relation to the human rights issue. It was on the question of human rights that she got the longest clap. Her stance on Belarus was particularly powerful as well. So I do think she did very well and also on racism and LGBTQ rights. She was excellent. And I think what made those stand out in particular is the way in which she sought to challenge member states in a very explicit and overt way, suggesting that the use of QMV should be considered in certain circumstances. So I really do think this was quite a powerful speech and one which I think goes some way to resurrecting the European Union's status and stature as a global leader on a number of fronts. In terms of Brexit and the withdrawal agreement, she was equally powerful. And she was, and that touch at the end, I think in terms of referencing John Hume who was himself an MEP for many years. And I think we'll touch those who were watching in Ireland particularly. But I'm impressed. The only area where she wasn't particularly strident was in relation to rule of law. No mention of Hungary, no mention of Poland explicitly, which is to be expected, I suppose. And she said all the right things in a way, but it was with a rhetorical flourish as opposed to it being grounded in any sort of concrete action or even in terms of it putting it up to the member states to deal in a pronounced way. And that stands in contrast with a very powerful position she took on human rights in the broadest sense. So that would be the area of where I would have seen that this speech is most let down. But other than that, I think this was a very accomplished speech in terms of content, tone, and delivery as well. Okay, and just we have an opportunity just to go back to our panelists for some questions to incorporate from the audience. Regina Daugherty, Tim Cullin from the IFA, he is obviously looking in in terms of Brexit, but also in terms of the Green Deal and the impact on Irish farmers and how I suppose they are going to be compensated in relation to some of the aspects of it. Obviously it was a very ambitious speech today in terms of mission reduction and pledges. But what do you say to Irish farmers watching at home? I suppose from a policy perspective, the Green Deal is about reconciling the economy with the planet. It's about reconciling the way we produce food, about the way we consume food, and it has to be in line with the saving of the planet and the changes that are needed. Now that's going to cost money. And we all know that when farmers have to change their practices or when we ask them to change their practices in line with the Green Deal, they have to be financially supported. I think that's something that's inherent in Irish policy is going to continue to do so. And our new agricultural minister will have to make sure that in all of our funding, any changes of practices that are maybe more accentuated in Ireland than maybe some other European countries, particularly around our beef production, people are compensated for. Farming is a way of life, not just in Ireland. And I know it's something that we cherish. But right across many European states, it's something that has to be sustainable, but it has to work in cooperation with the changes that are planned. And it'll all boil down to money. So we'll have to make sure that in any financing and negotiation deals that we're very, very strong. But I think she has a job of work to do to try and convince some of the member states that don't maybe have the capacity to get to that 55% target. And that's why I'm saying that's so striking to go from 40% to 55% to go to 37% of carbon emissions. They're big changes and they're really equally big targets and so they'll have to mesh with equally big funding packages to make sure that we achieve them. So the message to the farmers is, is the rest assured that we are here, we will continue to fight for what is our way of life, but just to smooth that transition to make sure that it's in compliance with saving the planet. David, there were some very strong words in relation to China and human rights at a pivotal time in trade talks. And she said, there were strategic, but there were also challenging. I want you to address that. And also we have a question from Peter Gunning, a former Irish diplomat. It does the promised new strategy on the Schengen system. I present perhaps an opportunity for Ireland to review its approach to this linchpin of the single market. I thought she was quite strong on China. Didn't say anything dramatically new. It was pretty much what was said in and around the summit earlier in the week. We're not really in a trade negotiation with China. We're in a negotiation about an investment agreement which would benefit trade. It's not going well. The Chinese, particularly the Americans, are also engaged in trying to reach a similar agreement and not getting anywhere. China is going to be a difficult customer for a long time to come and we're going to have to get used to this. And it will be a case of occasional confrontation and then re-engagement and backwards and forwards. And I think this is, we're going to have to... My own view is that one of the challenges when she mentioned reinventing the transatlantic relationship with the US without saying exactly what would happen on the 3rd of November, I think one of the difficult elements for us as Europe will be re-engaging with the US because precisely I think the Biden administration will want to maintain a tough line on China. And we're going to be a little bit, again, squeezed on that as to how we position ourselves as Europe because we don't like being faced with a binary choice, either the US or China. And Gengen, maybe Mary is more qualified. I know that she's done a lot of work on it. I mean, you know the problem. It's the common travel area with the UK and the reality that most travel out of Ireland goes via the UK. So you would gain freer access to the rest of the EU and you would lose free access to our nearest neighbor. So it's a very unfortunate dilemma. I regret deeply that we're not part of Gengen. I mean, I think it is one of the few major policy areas where we're not a full part. But I fully accept it's a big challenge to figure out how you find your way around it. I mean, maybe we can, maybe there are creative ways of thinking again about it, but especially in the light of Brexit. But anyway, that's the situation. Mary, in terms of Gengen and also some questions in relation to other issues, I know there that she put forward the issue of qualified voting in terms of calling out human rights abuses and that the Europe can be too slow at times. Now, John O'Hake and Trinity College double, they said it was superb speech, however, unless there were moves to restrict somewhat the power of veto, many of our most ambitious aspirations will come to little, can anything realistically be done in this area? Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, this is the difficulty for any president of the European Commission, regardless of their personality or character or appearance of power. The European Commission has a particular role within the European institutional framework and it is not a decision maker. It is reliant on the member states and when the veto can be utilized, that creates all sorts of problems for the European Commission in advancing its own particular initiatives and proposals. Now, Ursula von der Leyen in a speech like this can communicate her position very powerfully, but there's an awful amount of work has to go on in the background as well in terms of liaising with others, in terms of building relationships, in terms of networking, in terms of coalition, horse trading, et cetera, et cetera. And that's the kind of work that David well knows goes on in the background, can be very challenging and complex. And I think on issues like the rule of law where she wasn't particularly strident, the fact that her tone was more muted in relation to that particular issue demonstrates the enormous complexities and challenges she faces in terms of pushing the member states towards a more constructive and cooperative position on those kinds of issues. So yes, don't for a moment underestimate the challenges that any European Commission president faces. But nevertheless, there are ways and means of building those coalitions which can in time produce a sort of outcomes that von der Leyen is alluding to here, but certainly not without its challenges. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I think that was a powerful speech, as David said, with conviction and lots for different people and different sectors to look over over the coming hours and days because she certainly did touch on a lot. It wasn't a narrow address to the parliament. I'd like to thank our guests this morning. I'd also like to thank our audience for their patience. One of the themes this morning was here's to Europe's digital decade. And I think we can all say here, here and to connectivity. And also thanks to our organizers because it is worth having these discussions at this time with so many pressing issues that affect Ireland and the continent. So thank you to the Institute for International and European Affairs for the European Commission Representation and the European Parliament liaison office in Dublin. Many thanks and I hope you enjoy the rest of the day.