 All right. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the January 3, 2022 meeting of the Redevelopment Board. This meeting of the Arlington Redevelopment Board is being conducted remotely consistent with Governor Baker's executive order of March 12, 2020, due to the current stage of emergency in the Commonwealth through the outbreak of the COVID-19 virus. For this meeting, the ARB is convening via Zoom as posted on the town's website, identifying how the public may join. Please note that this meeting is being recorded and that some attendees are participating via video conference. Accordingly, please be aware that other people may be able to see you and take care not to screen share your computer. Anything that you broadcast may be captured by the recording. So now I will go ahead and confirm that all members of the Redevelopment Board are present and can hear me starting with Ken Lau. Yes. Dean Benson. Present. Melissa Tintacolas. Melissa present. Steve Revolac. Good evening, Madam Chair. And I'm Rachel Zenberry and I am here this evening together with two members of the Department of Planning and Community Development, Jennifer Raich. And Kelly Weinemann. Great. So happy new year to everyone. Welcome as we kick off the new year with our first Redevelopment Board meeting of the year. And our first meeting agenda item are the two public hearing we have this evening. The first is going to be the continued public hearing docket number three, six, six, five. And prior to the meeting starting, I just confirmed with Jenny Raich that you do not have the applicant with us this evening but we do have a letter requesting a continuation of the hearing from this evening to January 24. I do know that the letter indicated that the applicant did not have any notice of the meeting but I just wanted to state for the record that the applicants did actually specifically request this evening when giving the option between the two. But I have personally have no issue with continuing it since we did originally offer the option of the 24th to the 24th. But I'll go ahead and open it up to the members of the Redevelopment Board. First, I'll turn it over to Jenny to see if there's anything else on behalf of the applicant that she wanted to share. Thank you, Rachel. No, and I think I appreciate you clarifying that we had offered January 24th initially and that we had anticipated that this applicant would return on January 3 but indicated that they did not have enough time to get their team together in order to be responsive. So I anticipate that we will receive something from the applicant soon and that they should ultimately be able to proceed with January 24. Fantastic. Thanks. You're welcome. So at this point I think I'll turn it over to the board to see if there's any questions, concerns or discussion about continuing the hearing to the 24th starting with Ken. No, I have no issue with this continuing on to the next meeting. Great. Thanks Ken. Jean. Steve. Nothing here. And Melissa. Nope. Okay with that. Okay. So with that short discussion. I would ask if there is a motion to continue the public hearing for docket 365 for 645 of Massachusetts Avenue to our next meeting on January 24. Second. Great. Thanks. We'll take a roll call vote starting with Ken. Yes. Yes. Melissa. Yes. Yes. And I am a yes as well. So docket number three, six, six, five will be continued to the next redevelopment board meeting on January 24, 2022. So at this point, unfortunately, we need to take a quick break. Not a quick break actually a long break. The next public hearing was advertised for 815pm. And Jenny, I don't believe that we can start that earlier. So I think we'll need to take a pause and then reconvene here at 815. Okay. So the next applicant is not here and it is a published public hearing at 815pm because we had intended for 645 massive to start at 730. So, you know, people are welcome to stay online and mute and stop their video, but we will reconvene promptly at 815. See you all then. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We are going to go ahead and get restarted with the redevelopment board meeting now that it's 815 for docket number three five to zero, which is the public hearing for the signage at 117 Broadway. And I'll first turn it over to Jenny break to see if there's anything that she would like to highlight from the memo that the department put together. Thank you, Rachel. I am going to turn it over to Kelly line Emma who prepared the staff memo with Ali Carter and I'll bring up the memo if you'd like. Thank you Kelly. Thank you. So this is a an application for a special permit under ED under environmental design review for 117 Broadway. So recall is a recent housing corporation of Arlington development received a special permit under environmental design review in 2016 for a mixed use development. It is going to contain or it's nearly complete 14 years it's of housing and then approximately just over 5000 square feet of ground floor commercial. And Arlington needs who's here before you tonight, they've leased out part of the ground for space and they're requesting a special permit only for signage so there's not going to be an addition or any exterior modification other than the signs. They are the first tenant in the space so there are no existing signs to be replaced. Because it's just signs I think you can scroll down to page five of the memo. So they need a special permit really for two reasons. They're requesting greater, a greater number of signs that are permitted by the zoning bylaw, and they're also requesting a greater area of window signage than is permitted by the zoning bylaw. Just to note the graphics under window graphic a that you'll see their perforated vinyl so those will let light through the window. They're both options and then under window graphic be under both both alternatives those are opaque vinyl and they will cover the bottom third of the window. In particular the applicants looking to apply vinyl window graphics on the windows along Broadway Everett Street and the corner facade. And this is really to provide privacy for their customers and to screen some of the equipment inside the storefront. They've worked with the applicant and several iterations of the proposal. They've purchased the photography that they're using for the window graphics from Getty Images and they want to use it as part of their branding strategy. So they've shared two options with the board that are nearly identical with the exception of how the lower third graphics on window graphics be are cut so under option to their die cut along the top around the edges of the fruit and vegetables. So really on page six, you're right about there the bullets. We had called attention to a few clarifications that we were looking for. And the applicant today responded to those so we do know that the wall sign, they revised the sign of the wall sign in order to comply with section 6.2.5d 10. So that will be at least 14 approximately 14 inches from the edge of the wall that the sign is going to be attached to. And then the window graphic on the entry door the vinyl graphic they've reduced that to 20 inches by 20 inches so it therefore complies with section 6.2.1d 3. So I think that's basically in summary what they're looking for the window graphics are designed as I mentioned to provide additional privacy for the customers of Arlington Eats and I believe the applicant can probably share a little bit more on that if you have questions. Thank you Kelly I appreciate it. Is there anything that the applicant would like to to highlight in addition to what Kelly summarized for us this evening. Sure I'll mention something so my name is Andy don't I'm the executive director of Arlington Eats and I also want to welcome Michelle Phalen who is the principal at 96 point she has been incredibly helpful to us she's Arlington resident and she's been joining your time to create both something that's visually pleasing as well as practical so like Kelly said that the bottom third of these windows really is about covering up back of equipment so we are using every single square inch of the space that we can. Yeah and so we because those windows are pretty low to the ground they're 18 inches off the ground we knew we had to cover some of them up with equipment back low low reach and refrigerators and some low shelving and so to have that you know graphic on the bottom there really will be visually pleasing and also will cover the back of refrigerators because no one you know wants to look at that when they're going by on Broadway. And the other highlight that Kelly already mentioned was just really respecting the privacy and dignity of the guests who come to Arlington Eats. We have heard from so many people that admitting and needing to come to a food pantry is really a challenge the huge barrier and so as we were planning the design of the space both interior and then the exterior we really had that in mind like how can we create a space that's really dignified it's respectful. And again Broadway is a pretty busy street so wanting to make sure that we have those especially that block of windows that's curved to making sure that those are covered with some vinyl graphics so that people don't feel like they're on display when they're shopping. Graphic window be on Broadway and then the adjacent side on Everett will actually have some blinds that come down during the market opening so that will help privacy on those on those windows but having that curved windows a little challenging to get blinds there so that's why we're proposing graphics for that that set of windows. Great. Thank you very much, and I really appreciate the fairness of the application so Michelle thank you so much for donating your your time and Andy for making sure that we had such a thorough application. Let's see I'll turn it over now to my colleagues for any questions or comments that they might have and we'll start with Kim. Yeah I like to say thank you for a thoroughness of this documentation here. I have a couple of quick questions here. When I look at the windows graphics be. There's two windows to have the graphics on it. I believe one of those windows go into the lobby of the housing is not not true. Or am I looking at the plans wrong. The lobby of the housing departments that's actually on Everett Street. So it's farther back on Everett I don't know that we do we have that in our elevation. In the package. Jenny that's the same. It's around the corner can the lobby entrance. But when I look at the plan that says lobby. I'm missing something here. If you if you look at the there are two PDFs the PDF that you were just scrolling through was the one we submitted today to show what the window graphics going to look at on the door. But the other PDF. The original application. The plan view and in the plan view can you'll see on Everett Street where the entry lobby is into the apartment building. The windows adjacent to that entry are part of Arlington eats and they they are not into the lobby. So right there I'm talking about the one on Broadway. I think I understand are you talking about. We have the floor plan at the beginning of the application and it says lobby in that. Arlington eats lobby. So yeah this this is where you're seeing. So these this entry on Broadway is actually going to be the main entrance the lobby for Arlington eats. So we're actually going to have some indoor waiting for folks that don't have to wait outside. I see so that's part of your space. Right. Okay. My mistake. I just saw lobby there and I said wait a minute. You're going a little aggressive with the signage there but OK. Well besides that I think the other question I had was what kind of light I'm looking for what kind of light comes out of this out of this out of the retail space. So like what I'm driving by. I don't want to seem like a dark. Ground floor there. So there's nothing's occupied there. So if the thing is screened is there the two way. Is there enough light coming out so it looks like some. There are activities happening inside that ground floor space or I just don't want to seem like it's a walled off blank space there. Do you want me to feel that Andy. I think that's a head nodding yes. Sorry I can't see the the faceted window can would be perforated. So by day the window would you would see a graphic but by night you would see directly inside and it will be illuminated so any light that's on inside would allow that space to look occupied just like a bus wrap graphic would. Okay what kind of screen is that Michelle. What percentage like 25% or. We have a sample of it it was it was actually submitted. I believe it's a 65% screen but if you scroll up. It'll tell you it was it was recommended by 3M 3M directly. What you're looking at right there is just a what's what I'm looking for a. Kind of a visual to kind of show you what we mean by perforation but we actually submitted actual samples with the actual material to the town hall I don't know when Andy I think you brought it in just before vacation just before the holiday. That's enough screening that there's enough light to be able to come out. That's what yes that's what was recommended recommended to me by 3M under understanding what we wanted to do what we wanted to achieve it's called white Perf 81 70 dash p 40. Alright I trust you guys that's there's enough light coming out that's those are my only two concerns and one of them was wrong. I'm all set. Thank you. Great thank you can. Gene any questions or comments for the applicant. With a couple comments number one. Arlington eats is a great organization. I love it my household is one of your I'm sure many many donors from Arlington. So I'm excited you're moving into this space. I just had a couple of questions if you can go to. Let's stop there for a second. No that's fine go to the next one. The two windows to the right of the Arlington eats sign. Are they what are they going to have anything in front of them at all. No that's office space. So they'll just be open windows. Yeah. And then the area above the graphics to the left of the door. There'll be window shades in front of it. What will it be above the fruit and vegetables looking. Yeah we're planning on having blinds there. Okay. And how about the front door. The front door will just be open. Just clear glass or tempered glass whatever that glass that is there currently. Okay great. And I don't know about these graphics that they applied on the outside of the window or the inside of the window. They'll be applied on the inside. Second surface. And do you know do they fade over time or they maintain their sort of bright appearance. They should be treated with a UV protectant and should last I don't know what the with the warranty is on them. The we have the. I don't I don't have the warranty information on that. Yeah, you know, I thank you I think that's helpful. I think yeah I think for the reasons you gave it's in the public interest for for this so I have no problems with it. That's all I got. Thank you, Jean. Melissa, any questions or comments. No, I, I'm excited for you guys to find the space and move in I think that's great for Arlington. I was trying to open up mine. From my end, the PDF was a little sticky but the, the awnings is that part of this request I mean I know it's we're talking about just the graphics. Is that come at a separate time, or how is that being dealt with. That's base building they've already done that. Okay. Great. Well then, because I think that enhances it compared to some of the initial, some of the other pictures. And then, I guess this is just a random question though do you feel like there'd be any confusion with some of the fruit and vegetables that people just come in thinking it's like a corner market or, you know, just have that been talked about just curious. Yeah, we did. We said the more the better it looked the more likely people might come in thinking it's a corner store. And that's okay. I mean, if it ends up being that someone wants to come in and shop and they don't necessarily need our services maybe they can be a volunteer or a donor so. Okay, great. And so from the same perspective, I'm fine with it looks good. Great. Thank you Melissa. Steve, questions or comments. I did have a few questions earlier. Just about some of the dimensional dimensional aspects. Kelly answered them in her opening remarks. So I just have one comment, given the two options one and two. I like to a little better it had a more three dimensional feel to it. Otherwise it looks good. Thank you, Steve. And I just have one question and one comment as well. So my, my question is about the, the sign Jenny. If you're driving if you can go back to the Broadway elevation the sign that is the main that one right there, the entry sign panel. I just want to confirm that is on lit. Correct. Is there any concern or desire about, is there any ability to like that. And the reason I ask is, you know, just thinking about your hours and how early it gets dark in the, in the wintertime wanting to make sure that people can find your, your location. So I just wanted to ask about any consideration for internal or external lighting for that sign. I don't know if we've looked at internal. We did pick the white background for that very reason for it to be more visible. Unfortunately, there's no electrical ability to like get any, anything outside, you know, in terms of that kind of stuff we weren't allowed to do that with, you know, the internal lighting. So, okay, we don't have that at this point. And understand that and I understand, you know, again, the white background trying to maximize your visibility without the ability to, to like that sign perhaps that's something. The landlord if there is an issue would be willing to work with you on in the, in the, in the future because I certainly support additional lighting if that's something you wanted to add in the future. Again, you know, again, I know that you are looking for signage relief in terms of the, the amount of the percentage of window covering. We have granted that in the past when there are specific situations, such as against some of our cannabis establishments who have requirements and I think that the reasoning that you, you know, via via Kelly and her memo have provided in a request for privacy for your, your, your guests, certainly to me is, is worthwhile for us to, to consider approving. Like Steve, I also preferred the second option, the more dynamic presentation of the lower graphics with the cut out, as opposed to the flat, the flat option for option number one. I would be curious. I know Steve and I have given our opinion if, if my colleagues have any, have any preference there but we'll circle back to that I think after we take public comment, unless there are any other comments from, from the board members. So for that open gene. Just a quick question, is there going to be a building number somewhere on the Broadway side to identify the street address. I know the awning on the corner has 117 Broadway. I can't remember if it's going to have, there's one on the side to buy it. That's fine. I was just wondering, thanks. Melissa. I was just curious, I'm a big proponent of kind of street activation and trying to figure out ways to also enliven commercial corridors. And there ever been any consideration of kind of sidewalk. Well, but some kind of sidewalk activity. I know privacy is a concern, but sometimes it can be more welcoming if you put something out there and I'm wondering how that, if there's been thinking around that and how that would play out. That's a great suggestion. There's not been thinking about that yet. Welcome any ideas or suggestions for that. Is there a need of a planter or some other. I mean, you know, depending, it could be anything from little bistro seats to planters. I mean, I think there's, you know, the ideas to, you know, invite people and make it more communal, regardless of who they are someone who's a volunteer or someone who might be in need of food. And I think to me that, you know, the more inviting it is with certain kind of, you know, outwardly designed that draws people in can be just as well. Any other questions or comments. Or Steve, before we open up. You're good. Okay. So at this time, I'd like to go ahead and Before you do that, just want to clarify something I have been showing on the screen only option one. I apologize for that. I'm now I've scrolled down to option to there were two options in the application package so if anybody chooses to speak and they want me to switch between the two I'm glad to do that. And whenever you get to the point of deliberating and making your decision. Please just let me know which, which to refer to in your deliberation. Thank you. Okay. All right, so at this point, I'd like to go ahead and open the forum up for public comments. Any member of the public who wishes to speak on this docket number please use the raise hand function at the bottom of your screen. And I'll give it a minute or two for people to raise their hands. Okay, seeing no hands raised, I will go ahead and close public comment or docket number 3520 and turn it back to the board. And let's see so I heard pretty consistent approval of the signage package. Steve and I both voiced a preference for option to which is the option that Jenny currently has on her screen with the die cut top of the graphic as opposed to the flat top of the graphic. Is there any discussion about that that preference. Anyone feel differently or anyone else support that particular choice as opposed to the other. I'll go to Ken Melissa or Jean. I agree with you guys option number two is my first choice. It gets more dynamics more depth. I like it. Melissa. Um, can you pause on the option, the two options again, getting this option or two. Jenny was just on the cut out with the cut out. Yes. Okay. I'd be in agreement with that feature. Great. And Jean. I agree. Great. So is there a motion to, so we know that there was a amended package submitted today with updated window. Graphic sizes. Kelly correct me if I'm wrong. For entry for the entry. Just the door of the hours. And then the updated size for the wall sign. So, um, if I could see if there is a motion to approve. The amended package as submitted today, the. January 3rd. Um, I, uh, Yep. Is there a second. Second. Great. Um, and we'll take a vote now on approval of the amended package for the motion. Starting with, uh, Kim. Yes. Jean. Yes. Melissa. Yeah. Steve. Yes. And I'm the yes as well. Congratulations. Your signage has been approved. We look forward to you opening. And, uh, Seeing this installed. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. That closes docket number three, five, two, zero. And, uh, our first agenda item. And we will now. Find my agenda here. Move to item agenda item number two, which is the continued preliminary discussion of zoning amendments. And I will turn this over to Jenny rate who I believe. Has at least one, um, of the citizen petition articles. Um, Um, We'd like to discuss further. Thank you, Rachel. Um, yes. It, uh, James Fleming had requested, uh, some time to discuss a couple more ideas as you may recall. He's been, uh, talking with the board about other ideas at prior meetings and, uh, had emailed me requesting some potential time on the agenda. Um, I had initially thought that I too would have had something to provide to the board, uh, for this evening, but could not get that ready to go before I went away for two weeks. So, um, with that James is here and, uh, If he is amenable, um, and available, he could perhaps, uh, Join us and talk with you about his ideas. I don't know. I did not have any other communications or information on that. Um, I don't have any other correspondence related to this particular item. As you can see, there's nothing else posted with the agenda. So I don't have anything other than that, um, and have every intention that for our meeting on the 24th, You will receive draft warrant article language that you would then hopefully move to file, uh, For the warrant article deadline that Friday. But with that said, I will, I think it's time to James that it looks like there might be a question. So before we, um, ask James to, to chat with us, like Steve, you had, um, you had a question. Yes. Um, a question from his rate. If it's at all, I know time is always a crunch, but if it's possible to have the, um, draft warrant language in, um, A few days before the 24th, so that we can provide feedback to staff that would be wonderful. Thank you. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I, um, So we have a zoning bylaw working group meeting this Wednesday morning. And I think following that meeting will be able to have a better sense of everything that we need to draft and put into a memo to the board. And so that it would be to you the week prior, you'll have ample time to review that prior to your meeting on the 24th. Great. Okay. Anyone else have any questions for Jenny before we move to James. All right, James, you have the floor. All right. Awesome. Thank you. Um, So I had two and I, I guess I'm trying to remember what we did last time. Did I, was I able to share my screen last time? Or should I, like, I just want to reference parts of the zoning bylaw. No, um, I have your email. But, um, if you'd like me to bring up something from the zoning bylaw, I can also do that for you, James. Okay. Just let me know what you'd like. Sure. Um, so I guess let's start then with the zoning bylaw. So the section is, um, use regulations for business districts, which I believe is section five, six, three, five, five, five, five, three. Too quick. Too quick for me. Um, so, uh, let me, I'll give you the background and the problem that I'm, I perceive and that I'm trying to solve. And then maybe we can talk about what the best approach is. So if you scroll down to page five dash three, three under the class of use, eating and drinking establishments for restaurants, there's two lines. Oh, perfect. Yes. Uh, I think it's a couple pages down one more, one more. There it is. So, uh, two line items for, well, so under restaurant, there's two lines. There's basically two, two categories of restaurant that we decide are varying degrees of acceptable. So one is anything under 2000 square feet. You have your by right in some districts and special permit in one other. And then anything over 2000 square feet. Forget it. You need a special permit. So 2000 square feet is not a lot of space. So my, my impression is that this is to, this is one more thing that gets in the way of someone opening a, a new restaurant, not not one in an existing space that was a restaurant when it turned over, but if you have a change of use for whatever reason that this is going to be another hurdle for them. So my thinking was is either do away with it or change the threshold so that it is, it applies to fewer new restaurants. Okay. It sounds like you, did you have more than one? Do you want to stir it? Yes. Yeah. This, just this is one article. Okay. Great. So are you looking for feedback from the board on that initial idea? Great. So I will, um, I'll turn it over to, um, you know, I'll do a roll call one by one, uh, give you some of our initial bot for this and have people ask you a few questions and I'll start with, uh, with Jean on this. I saw you just un-muted yourself. So, clearly you have a bot. So go ahead, Jean. No, not to go first. I just didn't want to forget. Okay. Well, since we're here, why don't you go ahead and, and you've gained some of your initial thoughts. Yeah. Jim, do you have any, um, examples of where this prevented a restaurant from opening in town? I don't. Yeah. Cause I mean, we, you know, I, I haven't seen that as a particular problem. And I'd ask the other board members what they think about the other piece, which is when we have looked at restaurants, it's included things like, you know, where will they be parking? How will customers queue up? Things, you know, um, things like that, that are probably important things for there to be some level of interest. I don't know where the 2000 square foot number came from, but you know, I'm not, you know, unless there's a lot of evidence that this has been a barrier or restaurants, I don't see it as something that necessarily needs to be changed for that reason. And because there's might be some benefit, but I'm interested to hear what my colleagues on the board have to say. Great. Thank you, Jean. Kim, initial thoughts, questions? Yeah. I'm looking at this in a ballpark view of 2000 square feet. If you were to take a third of that away for the kitchen space, and then that leaves you about 1500 square feet. And let's say you take 15% of that away for circulation space. That leaves you about somewhere between 12 and 1300 square square feet. Actually, Mike's on the line here for 1300 square feet. For a restaurant. How many? What's the seating? What's the seating capacity of that? Is there like 40? I'm just trying to get an idea of what size restaurant. This 2000 square feet sort of gets around. Yeah, that's, that's, that's still a significant space. I mean, that would be, I'd be pulling a number off the top of my head, but I mean, I could see that being somewhere around 40, 50 seats. Okay. So I think I'm encouraged by what you're saying, James, and I like that. But I think saying that a 40 or 50 seat restaurant is small. That's not the way to go. I would maybe change it and say, gives opportunities for a restaurant to expand in the future. Because a 40, a 40 seat restaurants is, is not a starting point. I don't think. I think it's a point where you want to grow into. If it were limited to like only 12 seats or 20 seats, I might say something to say that's, that's a limiting factor, but at 40 or 50, that's a good size restaurant to start off with. That's my opinion right now. Just off the top of my head. I could be wrong. That's, you know. Thanks, Ken. Melissa, any, any questions, comments for, for James? Well, I think I, I appreciate the intention behind it, James. I think I'd like to hear a little bit more probably from, you know, our economic development, you know, staff, you know, Allie Carter looks at this. But my sense is from my experience, special permits. You know, they don't have the certainty. So businesses kind of avoid them. They don't have the certainty. They don't have the certainty. I think that's a good point. From my experience, it's a cost issue. And if we're trying to support an industry that's been hardest hit through the pandemic, this would be something that you'd want to look into a little closer. To enable it, because if there is a threshold that we're missing, I think we should address it. But I think we might need a little bit more information on it and how it could, I would say our built environment in Arlington. That's something that you would like either Jenny or Kelly to address in terms of any inquiries or barriers that they see from their perspective in terms of applicants. Yeah, I would welcome that. I mean, if you have comments now, that would be great. Or if there's some sources that you think you can tap into to let me know that, you know, that exists, that would be great too. Great. I'll turn it over to Jenny. For any comments on that thread. I don't have an immediate response to Melissa's inquiry. I can look into it a little bit further with Ally Carter and probably with others in the business business community. I think I'd want to go a little bit further and probably ask, we have a sort of a subgroup of the. Economic Development Recovery Task Force that's been addressing issues with restaurants. So I can also defer to that group. But I think that it's probably to your point a little bit more complicated given Arlington's built environment. And some of the constraints there, but I don't, I don't have an immediate answer. So I can. Gladly get back to you. For James or both. Thanks. Any other questions, Melissa. Nope, not at this point. Great. And then before I turn it over to Steve for any questions, I just wanted to clarify. You all heard from. Mike Champa beforehand. And Mike, I just wanted to see, I neglected to ask you to introduce yourself before, just so that others on the call knew who you were. And, you know, why you were weighing in on Ken's question. So if you could just quickly introduce yourself. Yeah, of course, I'm sorry. Mike Champ, a director of inspectional services. Great. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it. Steve, any questions or comments? I think mine are generally similar to Melissa's. I'm very supportive of the idea, but. I guess I'd like to understand a little bit more about what's run into what's been run into. And with the economic task force, I'd like to, you know, to see what they. You know, to get away in from them as well. Great. Thanks. So James, it sounds like there, there's a little more information, especially from from Ali Carter that I think would be helpful for the board to, to hear from. I think that it was either Jean or Ken who brought up some good points about the questions that we asked, especially some of the larger establishments that have come up in this board. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point for us in terms of things like trash removal and parking and. Some of the other items to make sure that the establishments have considered all of the items related to site. But, you know, again, whether that needs to come in front of this board or there's another body who, who does that. You know, I think understanding a little bit more from your perspective and then also from the department. What, what constraints have been. That further on this one. I have a question. So. When it says special permit in the zoning by law. That what is there are also things that they have to do for signage and all this other stuff. What is the additional. Effort of a special permit. On someone who runs into one that doesn't. So for example, the buyer, there's one, the, if you're under 2000, then you're by right. That's the additional cost of that to your business. If you're trying to open one. Steve has a hand raised. Go ahead. But the, a lot of it is in time and certainty. So just the process of getting a special permit, whether it is through the redevelopment board or the zoning board of appeals. Restaurants on their commercial strips would be this board. You're looking at two weeks of advertising. Some number of weeks before the permit or before the hearing is held, if the hearing is continued, that's another two to four weeks delay there. Then you have to wait for the decision to be signed and wait for an appeal period to pass. So it's, it's, if things go super quickly, it's at least a two month delay. I think, I think would be, would be a reasonable expectation. And if there are, you know, shortcomings and if they're, and if something comes up, it could drag out longer. Okay. And what is the benefit of having a restaurant over a certain size be under special permit? Why does that need to be specially reviewed? My sense is James that partly it's, it's around the seat count, the larger the square footage, the more seats you can have. And then that relates to the parking requirements or usually the traffic circulation, but just to go back to your other point on, you know, some of the hurdles that special permits kind of create that it's this uncertainty when you are a business owner considering signing a lease. Generally speaking, those, you know, you're committing to, you know, an agreement that you'll be paying without certainty that your business will be allowed because there is a possibility a special permit wouldn't be allowed. And there's those things oftentimes depending on the community also have to not always, but have some legal representation. So there's cost associated with the time that Steve was referencing. So those are just a couple of things that kind of add to it. So when, you know, a business owner or food service business is considering a place, they might look at that and opt for another location versus selecting that space because it has that special permit. It's just, so it's a factor. Okay. Looks like sorry, James before we move on from that, I think Kim had a comment and then I'll allow Jean to weigh in. I think the answer to your question about size James has to do with the larger the restaurant is bigger impact on the community. So there's traffic. There's trash, trash, how the size of the size of the building fits within the texture of the, of the, of the community and also kitchen exhaust might be, you know, something like that might be simple, something like that, where a larger kitchen has a lot of more intake and exhaust, which might affect the neighbors. Things like that is what's, you know, that's something we look at. And as a developer in the past, generally when you have to go to a special permit, you assign the same amount of time that we take to build it. So let's say it was a one year construction, you're factoring one year of permitting. So that's, so that's what essentially that that's for that's for a new, a new building with a, with a restaurant inside. So that's correct. That's correct. I'm imagining you take, I'm trying to think of a building in town that already has a tenant that it that's like a, to take a bank in town and suppose you want to go to a restaurant, they have to go through this process too, even though it's not, it's the same building. There's no impact on the neighbors from new construction size or shadows or anything. If they're just moving in and yet there's still this uncertainty. Yes, that's where I agree with you. Where this is only bylaw encourages smaller restaurants and doesn't encourage, say a larger footprint restaurant that go in there. Because if they were below 2000 square feet. Then they'd be all set. Right. They would not need a permit, a special permit. Sorry. Sorry. I'll. So, Rachel, you know, Jean wants to talk. I'll wait till you're done. I'm done. I have a different perspective on this as somebody who's running some small nonprofit businesses. And for some of those businesses had to obtain special permits for various sorts of things. And that is, yes, it's going to take some extra time. But it's going to take some time. And not that much in Arlington. And you might have to pay for counsel. And that will cost you some. But you usually have a pretty good idea about what you need to do to get the special permit. You want to talk to Jenny or Kelly. Or other folks in their department ahead of time. You want to talk to them about what you're going to need to get the permit. And usually you're not going to sign the lease. Until you get the permit or lease is going to be contingent. Upon. Getting the permit. So. I'm not saying it's not a factor to taking consideration, but it's mostly thinking about timing. And what the extra cost is to put together. So I'm not saying it's a factor to take into consideration. But I would be surprised if it were a big deterrence. And I could be surprised. That's why it started by asking. I would be surprised if it was a big deterrent. For restaurants to move into town. I have talked to one business owner whose business is now closed because of the pandemic. She was, this is her first venture and apparently it was held for her because she didn't know anything because it's your first time. If you've opened businesses before, I'm sure it is easier. But for her, it was, it was just a matter of not even knowing who to go to. To get questions about this. And so you eventually do, you hire the lawyer, you pay them to do all this for you. And if you're, if you are starting out, I would hope that you have that extra money budgeted to do this. Because if you don't, then. Then that, that puts you further on the knife edge of whether you can even open the business or not. So, so James, I appreciate that concern. And I'll just say, and then I think we'll probably move on to your, your next. Sure. Item that that is something that actually was brought up in the economic recovery task force thinking about ways that we could simplify and be clear about what the process is. In fact, provide an outline or a very clear roadmap for businesses looking to either renovate or open in Arlington as to what the process is. That needs to be the undertaken. So I think that that's an excellent point that you bring up from your experience and speaking with that owner and something that. I know that the department is actively working with the select board, as well as several other groups in town to, to make that decision. That is a real opportunity for the town to, to address. And Jenny, I saw you nodding your head. I think that that's something that you all are currently. Agreement. And it's not just the zoning issue. It's many other, there are many other permitting hurdles. For opening a new business in Arlington in general, but specifically for restaurants. It is definitely not just the special permit. There are many other factors and can, point about, you know, thinking about the permitting and licensing. And there's a lot of other variables that go into building out a restaurant. I have no doubt that it probably does take about a year. Just to get all of that done, whether you're talking a brand new building or outfitting. And renovating an existing space. I'm sure we can produce. Examples. Illustrating. These points. Right. So I guess I'll talk with Jenny offline. And you know, we'll figure it out. Yeah. Great. Thank you. A second. You kept doing your hand raised. That's okay. That's okay. I mean, between. Mr. Benson's and Mr. Fleming's comments and actually news rates comments. As well. It almost, you know, having a checklist or I would, the seat almost seems like a case where. Performing standards would be, you know, perhaps preferable in some cases to, you know, a special permit is in a do all of the, do all of the things on this list and you will get a, and you will get a permit. But, you know, that's more, that's, that's, there's a lot more to that than just, a square foot, a square footage calculation. That's a good point. And I, as I mentioned, I do believe that that's something that the, is one of the outcomes from that, that task force that the town is, is looking at specifically for restaurants, but for other types of commercial businesses as, as well. All right, James. On to number two. Cool. So for this one, I think we're going to have to, okay. All right. James, on to number two. Cool. So for this one, the best way is probably to, oh, yes, she brought it up. Thank you. So, So this is a shot of GIS. So Melrose Street is my street. I lived three houses in. On Melrose at 15. And I was thinking about this. So the background to all, to this and the previous article is that I like my neighborhood. I like more restaurants, it'd be nice if there were more restaurants, but all the spaces, well, okay, not all the spaces, most of the spaces are full and then COVID happened and then we lost a couple of businesses in the neighborhood. So I thought, well, wouldn't it be great if we had more businesses, but all the business zoning spaces are occupied with businesses so you cannot even in principle open another business in this neighborhood. And also, I had found the zoning map of Arlington from, I forget the year, something like 70 years ago, which showed what the business district used to be, which was like 100 feet on either side of Mass Ave the entire length of the town was eligible for businesses. So I was thinking, well, wouldn't it be nice if we just had a few more business parcels in my neighborhood as a starting point. And then I talked to town council about this and he said, you're going to have to notify all the butters of every parcel you want to change through registered mail that takes a lot of time and money, and I'm not going to do the entire town. So I thought, this seems like a decent place to start because this is my this is my neighborhood. This is capital square and there's a gap in the business district. So let's take this and rezone it to be three or maybe be two one of the one of the two on either side of it and just fill in the gap that was created. Whenever it was created, I have no idea. So your, your question, do you have a specific question or just looking for just feedback. So town council already told me that I have to notify the butters, which is fine. There's only a dozen of them. So the question, the question is, do you have any feedback or anything that I'm probably going to run into as a result of this one, the cursory, cursory checks I have done the uses in these four parcels are allowed in E3. So if you turn it to be three, you're not creating an on conforming use. So it's better than to change their building to something else. So there's, there should be, I think, no impact on people who live there now. There's a, the 150 is an apartment, three, a three family apartment 147 is to condos 151 is a two family that's got an owner who lives in another town and then our apartment is an apartment building owned by the court reality. Great. So, I will turn it over we'll start with Ken for thoughts on James's proposal of a micro rezoning for this particular section of town. James that dark red. That's like the top left. That's business that's owned business be to three, and then the pink in the bottom right is B2. So, so the area that you have highlighted there right now is are something are the one parcels are five and then the rest of it is part two. And you're trying to make it more conduct, but we spot zone that so that it's it's continuous. Yeah, so the business district just keeps going, either as B3 or B2. So it's just continuous business all the way down along the massive frontage. And this is just an example that you want to just one area as opposed to well so so I would love to do the whole town but I can't afford to do the whole town because there's a lot of parcels and I have to notify I have to notify all the butters which is a lot of mail. It's a lot, it's a lot of mail and I'm not going to do that. So, I'm sure this is something the air be could do somehow but I don't know if you have time to do it so I pitched this as a I would I would be willing to do this because it's, it's the end of my street so I have a personal stake in it. And it's small enough that it almost seems not worth fighting about, except for the people who live there who I'm sure will have opinions. I want to say I'm very supportive of this, but I'm not sure how the. Yes, I think you're you're right, because you're the neighbors sitting there saying well, I bought this land and it had a certain. It was that it was zone certain a certain way and then we're changing it. I think the areas that you're changing the values are going to increase quite a bit. And I'm not sure with the, the neighbors will like that because they're their value may decrease. Wait, you said that you said it would increase the land that you're changing would increase the lands that the adjacent to it will probably make decrease I'm not sure. I would they decrease that would be an assessment wouldn't it. Yes, I'm just stating my opinion I think that if you're if you had some of those are what two families. Yeah, there's the other two of them that are three families one to three. And so that so that it's in a sort of two or three family neighborhood which looks like all I like on your street there, and then I send you come up to it. If you come up to Mass Ave. It all of a sudden becomes a business district. So your, your next door neighbor is a business. So it might be a big parking lot group could be a back of a building. You know, if it does become developed that's all. But I, I have no control over what happens I can't tell them what will be built. And that that's why the zoning exists there are standards for setbacks and heights and everything. There are rules about it. Yeah, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate James I'm not saying I disagree. I get it. There's also the ARB, which will put anything on Mass Ave almost certainly goes in front of you. I see what the other one numbers say Rachel I'm gonna. Let's say anything more for now. Okay, great. Yeah, I guess my initial thought was you know we've said a lot that Mass Ave is an inexcusable if I can use that word crazy quilt of different zoning districts up and down. It would make it a very slightly less crazy, crazy quilt, but still a crazy quilt in other places. I think that if you zone this be three I'm not sure we had a mind. All of these current uses are allowed and be free. Yes, it wouldn't be making any of them non conforming, which I think would be helpful. Yes, that's right. That was the I think you need to notify not only the abutters but the actual owners of the building. The abutters are the owners and the abutters are subsets, because there are butters of each other. Right. Well, yeah they are as a matter of fact except for, well, I don't know but anyhow, you have to do the owners and the abutters. Yeah I guess the thing that we can't answer is what anybody when they saw the change of zoning, say, gee, maybe I should sell. Because I'm just saying the property will go up in value, probably, if it goes from one of these R2s and an R5 to be three, let's say, so the property would probably go up in value. So if I were the owner of one of these places, I would in a sense be getting a gift from the town, because the town is giving me the ability to either sell it for money, or to redevelop it, or to convert what is residential to commercial. I mean, I think it's a good idea. I don't know what all the long term implications are for those specific buildings, maybe they'll stay the way they are for a long time. I think they have the ability to stay the way the way they are for a long time but you know since we envision mass ad is a commercial quarter in town. It applies that a little bit more uniformly to these few blocks. So, yeah, I think it. Yeah, those are my initial thoughts at this point. Melissa, that's, that's true. Pardon me. James, have you actually talked to the property owners today. I have sent them messages but I can't control if they respond to me so no I haven't heard back. I haven't heard back. Basically, basically the letter was saying, you know, I'm trying to do this thing. And, you know, here's my best guess as to what will happen. And that there will be a public hearing and I have to notify them again anyways, because they'll be by registered mail. If this goes to a warrant article because that's just part of the process for rezoning so they'll they'll get an actual public hearing to voice their opinions at. Right. Well, in my experience kind of along, you know, with my background and planning and economic development, engaging the property owners is probably the first thing to do understand where they're at what their long term plans are, and what would trigger any change. So, I mean, I think kind of being able to engage with them would be really important, whether it's, you know, us as a town, whether it's you as a proponent for this. I think the, again, the intention with this aligns with the goals that we've stated in the master plan, the goals that are be stated around, you know, developing mass have as the commercial corridor and increasing commercial opportunities. And I think this could be considered almost like a pilot and a test to explore that so I can see that I think if you were going to go down that path then you're going to champion this which is pretty you know it's exciting that you're trying to take this on. It would be great to really understand where the property owners are coming from so that they can support it. And they understand the thinking there's you know the implications we can all speculate on value sales redevelopment from a change. And that's why it's going to be important where the property owners are on this. Thank you Melissa those were all really excellent points you raised. Steve. Yeah, a couple of comments. So, I understand the basic intention is to rezone that looks like four parcels in the, you know, to make the district more continuous less fragmented and, you know, allow at least the possibility that they might be redeveloped at a later point in time as commercial properties is at the general list. Yeah, so I don't know if they will be but I know that it's not possible to do it right now. Right. So, there, what we're really doing is just kind of, you know, if what we're playing around with the zoning equivalent of the over 10 window. What I agree with what Miss Chintakala said, I think it is very important to talk to the owners. I'm just from, you know, from a, the perspective of town meeting. If owners were opposed to a parcel rezoning. I think that would be a very big ops would create a big obstacle for that you would have to overcome. On the other hand, if the owners were supportive and town meeting do this that I believe would give you a better chance at acquiring the necessary votes. Now to, I under yeah I agree with Mr events in this and Mr allow that this might. You know, this could increase the value of these four parcels but I just want to point out that these use this used to be all one continuous business district and at some point in the past. I, the town took those rights away. The town took those rights away so it removed the up a bill, any opportunity to do commercial development on them. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't mind giving back something that we took away a couple of generations ago. Overall, yeah, I think this is a great idea. I think this is, you know, it's a small step but I think it's, I am generally supportive of it. Do you have any additional questions that you have for the, for the board on, on this item. Anything procedural that I am going to run into with rezoning parcels so I town counselor said we have to notify the butters, which includes most of most but not all the owners sounds like from you I should probably try again reaching out to the owners. But is there anything in particular that I'm probably going to run into that's going to be just a legal thing or technicality that means that this can't be done. I'm going to defer that question to Jenny to see if you have any insight there it sounds like James is already in touch with town council that kind of who would be able to to also answer some of those questions but Jenny. Did you have any additional thoughts on any, any specific legal items or procedural procedural items that James should be aware of. I'll start with procedural. The second one I'm not as comfortable answering in the immediate, but the first one with procedural. The procedure is actually in the zoning bylaw as to how to do is owning map change and the steps that need to be taken there's nothing more to it than that. Thankfully, so. Those are the steps in the process. We've actually only had one zoning map change in the time that I've worked for the town. We have had one other proposed but it didn't make it to town meeting it was voted no action at the time. A citizen's petition actually. The map change that we've done is related to the DPW site, which we changed the use, which had been an hour and it went to an industrial zone. So procedurally, you know, I can't speak to anything further than what is already in the zoning bylaw but I would be glad to walk you through those steps and what that might look like and we can of course talk about that offline. So, honestly, you've already spoken with town council, I don't think there's anything more that I can provide you in terms of legal guidance from a town perspective I'm not part of the legal department of course, but from zoning and land use perspective I think you'd probably want to look carefully at the cases that may or may not exist in relationship to the parcels that you're talking about rezoning. I don't know what the history is of those parcels I don't know the, you know, the whole history of those parcels and I think that that would be relevant to you doing a little bit more research and we can of course help you with that at the town to guide you through what that might look like. I can't think of any other legal hurdles because of that particular location but you know in a different circumstance there could be environmental hurdles there could be other issues of concern that might be legal in nature. Those are the only things that I can in the immediate think about, but I'm glad to continue the discussion with you separately to follow up. And also when I get additional information. What are your thoughts from town council's office. From a warrant article filing perspective. Is there anything different about this than say something else like do I have to include the, like the proof that I sent a thing, a registered mail to the owners with the article or is that later, or something else. I would suggest that we can talk about this as a follow up, and we can talk about the steps that you take and how you know the wording in the warrant article as you started with town council already, just for the sake of the board's time and process It would look similar to the warrant article that was filed in relationship to the DPW site, which is why I referenced that you do have to you have to reference the map numbers and there's some other details that would be needed in the actual warrant article language. Okay, okay. And I would just, I just wanted to thank you Jenny. I'd like to really just underscore what Melissa canceled you to do everything you can to try and contact the property owners. It's really important to, to, to speak with them directly and and concentrate your efforts there before going too too far down the path as well. I just want to speak to that if you don't mind Rachel. That was actually the downfall of the prior citizen petition was no or limited to no outreach to the butters in relationship to the map change. And that was very, the board was very discouraged by that the board of course at that time it does not look like this board, except for Kim. Don't know if you remember this, but, but this was, you know, you know, a different, this was different group of people but I think your hearing is similar concerns so I think you should take that under advisement very seriously. Any other questions. Thank you to these two. Well thank you. I really appreciate all of the creative ideas that you bring to the table and your enthusiasm so thank you so much for bringing both of these to us today and we look forward to seeing where we're these both develop so more seen it sounds like. All right, thank you James. So with that we will Jenny is there anything else related to zoning amendments I believe that was it for this evening correct. It is all. Yeah. Okay, super. So with that we will close agenda item number two. I'm sure that there may be thoughts that some of the members of the public have related to the to the discussion we just had with James and I'd like to encourage that under agenda agenda item number which is our open forum. So any member of the public who is with us this evening, who would like to speak and address the board may do so by using the raise hand function at the bottom of your screen. You'll be given three minutes to speak. So please go ahead and raise your hand now you'd like to speak this evening. I'm a little bit too. All right, we have one person right now. So I'll invite Don Seltzer. Before John speaks I'll remind everyone to please introduce yourself by first last name and address. And again you will be given up to three minutes for any remarks, any questions or comments you have to the board so don't please go ahead. Chair Don Seltzer Irving Street. I have a question actually request related to the ongoing discussions of the housing production plan. Some of the board members who are active on the Arlington list know that there's been a bit of discussion related to affordability 40 be and the subsidized housing inventory list. I cannot find on the town's website anywhere a list of what our 40 be properties are. And I think it would be useful for further public discussion if this list was made available. Thank you. You actually asked Jenny to address. Absolutely. Don that list is actually the subsidized housing inventory which is. The housing product prior housing production plan as an appendix. And I'm, I can't remember off the top of my head if it's also is it also an appendix in the current housing plan draft yet. Yeah, I think it's probably been updated in the last five years. And it would be useful if there was some place on the town website where people could find it more easily, rather than trying to dig through the appendix of some previous plan. So just this absolutely the subsidized housing inventory is on the affordable housing page itself. So I, I, I would be glad to follow up with you on this. Okay, but that is that is what the 40 be. That is what is 40 be is referring to is the subsidized housing inventory for the town. Okay, thanks Jenny, I will follow up with you on it. Yeah, you're welcome. And thank you for that point about just trying to find it. Thank you Don and thank you Jenny for the clarification. Any other member of the public wishing to speak this evening, give another couple seconds. All right, seeing none we will close the open forum for this evening. And I believe that is it for us tonight. So if there is a motion to adjourn. I'd love to entertain that right now. So motions. Second. I second. Thank you, Melissa. I'll take a roll call vote starting with Ken. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I am a yes as well. So thank you everyone for joining us this evening. Happy New Year, and we will see you on the 24th. Happy New Year. Thank you.