 Good day, my lovely listeners. You are listening to the Forty Autie podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalising tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Good day, my wonderful people, and welcome back again to the Forty Autie podcast. With your host today, Mr Thomas Henley as usual. It's a bit of a gloom day today in good old UK, or at least up north. I have recently come down with a bit of sickness. I think there's a bug going around in my local area because it seems that both my girlfriend and brother have both got pretty sick from it. I am all good, so don't worry about me. Today we have a podcast with none other than Purple Ella. And we're going to be talking about late diagnosis of autism. What it looks like, the kind of things that you can expect, the things that perhaps may be holding you back from going and getting a diagnosis. Ella is an amazing person to talk to. And I won't talk too much. So Ella, how are you doing today? Yeah, I'm OK. I'm a little bit tired, to be honest. But feeling good about life in general, I think. Good, so that's really great to hear. Would you like to give everybody a little bit of a background into the kind of work that you do? Who am I? Yeah, so yeah, I am a late diagnosed autistic adult. I was diagnosed in my mid-thirties and I'm also the mother to two autistic children. And another child who isn't autistic, who I always feel like I need to mention because I'm like two autistic children, but I actually have three children. And when I got my autism diagnosis, I have a background as a performer. I was actually a circus artist in my former life. Really? I did not know that. Yeah, so I used to do acrobatics and juggling and street performing, stage performing. I guess I just like performing, always have done. So when I got my diagnosis, I guess I started making YouTube videos as a way partly to kind of process. I'm a verbal processor. So partly as a way to process my experience that I was having, but also partly to share my experience thinking like it might benefit other people in a similar situation because at that time, it wasn't an unusual thing to be the mother of an autistic child realizing that you yourself are also autistic, right? So that was seven years ago. That'll be seven years ago in June. And since then, it's kind of become my job, which is wild. So I make content on a variety of social platforms now, YouTube, mostly YouTube and TikTok, but also a little bit on Instagram. And I also make content for other people. So I made a video for the NHS recently for people who are training in supporting autistic people in crisis. So crisis services, inpatient services, they commissioned me to make a video for them to use as part of their training so that I can actually tell all those doctors and nurses in those situations what we actually need them to do, which is amazing. We do need that. Yeah, it's great to be able to do stuff like that where you feel like you're actually maybe even affecting systemic change, you know, and I made some content recently for clinical partners. I'm not entirely sure how they're going to use it. I think it's going to be on YouTube. I'll keep people posted, but that was a super fun experience where I got to not do any of the, you'll know, as a podcast host, you're the promoter, you're the artist, you're the script, you're the editor. In this case, I was able to just turn up and say things and someone else is doing all the rest of the work. That is the dream. Living the dream. Yeah, so I also do consultancy, public speaking. Basically, I've got my fingers in a lot of pots, but I suppose I'm specifically interested in mental health and autism, gender experience and autism because my eldest autistic child is trans and I am non-binary and I'd also really like to get my finger into the pot of the justice system at some point, because I feel like there's a lot of ADHD is sitting in the justice system and I'd like to understand why and what I can do to help there. So I'm just I'm just doing everything that I can really to support autistic people as part of my own journey, learning about my own, you know, neurodivergence. Well, from from what you from what you're telling me, it sounds like we're quite similar in our in our focuses mental health and autism tends to be like the top thing for me to kind of tackle it. So it's a really big issue, isn't it? In the in the in the autistic community. One thing I wanted to ask you about because on Instagram, your name is Purple Ella and Coco. And before before we got here to chat, I had a look at your YouTube channel and your video about autism assistance dogs. Would you like to tell everybody a little bit about what it is like to have a Coco in your life? Yeah, I mean, I can talk about dogs all day long. So happy to dive into that one. Yeah, so I've had Coco since she was a puppy and have owner trained her as my assistance dog with the support of an organization that supports with things like trainers and insurance and stuff to help you do that with in a kind of supported way. Did that make any sense? Yeah, so I would say working with Coco is has been life changing for me in that I'm now able to like attend hospital appointments and go shopping and stuff on my own where previously I would have had to have made my husband take the day off work and come and do it with me. But it isn't without its challenges. So I always like to say that like on the one hand, I've got this amazing support and relationship with this animal that I absolutely adore and who is the most uncomplicated relationship that I have in that I'm never worrying, you know, you're autistic, I'm never worrying, does she like me? Did I say the wrong thing? What does that facial expression mean? You know, she's just like solidly, consistently the way she is and she doesn't answer back and she never disagrees with me, which I loved. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But on the other hand, especially if you're owner training and assistance dog and especially if you're quite a black and white thinker, they're not perfect. Not even guide dogs for the blind are perfectly behaved all the time. And I think I kind of thought they were before I became an assistance dog handler. I kind of thought an assistance dog was just almost like a robot that never had a bad day, right? But they do. They have bad days and sometimes the training doesn't work and that can be really frustrating. And no matter how I'm feeling, I've got to walk her and I've got to care for her, you know, which can be a good thing because it kind of keeps you motivated but can also be a bit of a challenge. But for me, I absolutely love working with Coco. And I'm also the ambassador, one of the ambassadors for Dogs for Autism, who are a charity in the UK who provide fully trained assistance dogs to autistic people of all ages, which is awesome because actually all the other charities are doing brilliant work, but no one's working with autistic adults, apart from these guys in the UK. Yeah, I kind of I kind of really care about this. Yeah, I think the the looking after and the walking and the the feeding is because I've, you know, thought about getting an assistance dog because throughout my life I've had, I mean, my big brother was a dog. Lovely, lovely mongrel from the from the kennel called Bob called him Bobby dog. Great dog name. And he I think he I think he lived up until he's about 14 or 15. And he was he was definitely like a massive emotional support for me. I think the the issue for me comes in that I still haven't sorted out all the executive functioning issues that I have. And, you know, even getting myself to eat and getting myself out to a walk would be difficult. One one thing that I that I sort of picked up when you were you were talking about autism assistance dogs is that you've had a lot of difficulties with accessing venues, places that, you know, should should be accessible. And I think you said in the video that there's, you know, denying someone who has an assistance dog into into a venue is, you know, against the law is it's a reasonable adjustment. Have you had have you had many experiences like that? Or is it more of an isolated? Yeah. No, unfortunately, it does happen regularly. And I kind of thought it was maybe happening regularly to me because I work with a dog that doesn't look like most assistance dogs. You see kind of black labs or golden retrievers, right? Whereas Coco is a small fluffy dog. So I thought maybe it's that maybe people aren't used to seeing that. But I've been following YouTuber Molly Burke, who is blind and she works with a guide dog and she has access problems. And I'm like, if someone with the most well known, most obviously working dog is having problems with access, we all are, right? Yeah. So what I've started to do is I have I found it really stressful for the first year or so of working with Coco having to explain every time. Actually, we are covered by the equality law. Actually, you do have to let us in. And, you know, dealing with that was like almost more anxiety provoking than not having the dog in some instances. Yeah. I think there was one particular memorable instance when I wasn't allowed to do a covid PCR test with her. They just wouldn't let me in. And only would they not let me in, but they were quite aggressive in their manner with me. So that was quite stressful. So after that particular incidence with a big kind of beefy bounce to kind of let me in. Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. After that, I realized that what I could do was and this is kind of anyone that's got a dog assistance dog. You can do this is I got from Etsy, a card that has a QR code that I can literally just go just scan this and it takes them to a place where all the law around assistance dogs is explained. And since I've been using that, it's gotten a lot easier because I'm just like, here's my card, just do it. And half the time they don't even scan it. They're just like, oh, right. OK, then. But it saves I think as an autistic person, anything that saves the need to do more communication than I have to is a helpful thing. Yeah, especially with bounces. I I have a particular aversion to any security or security staff or bounces because I'm very heavily PDA. And I find it really difficult. But there's been sometimes that sometimes when I've gone to like the pub with my friends or or something. And if and it's I always find I always find myself getting very on age and very annoyed around the security staff. Yeah, well, I'm not going to say that I walked away shouting words that I wouldn't use this podcast at the sky in the end. That might have been what happened. Oh, they're just so I could I could go on about it forever. But yeah, he basically treated me like I was a precious Karen. And I think that's I think as a as a white female presenting middle aged person, the Karen kind of meme or however you would describe it has not been helpful for me. Because for example, like a couple of days ago, I was having to say to someone, why don't you have a blue badge parking space, a disabled parking space? I needed one. You don't have one. You've got a 20 20 car park. You've got a 20 car car park. You should have it. And the way they treat me was like I was being a Karen. And I wasn't saying mate, my coffee isn't the right temperature. I was saying I have an access need that you're not meeting. But I feel like I get that vibe a lot. And this security guard was definitely giving me that. I just think you're a precious, you know, Karen type. I can imagine that you you have to you have to deal with those circumstances where people don't let you in because of because of Coco. A lot. So I imagine that it's quite like, oh, here we go again. Like, honestly, I think the biggest problem is not so much that because at least in that situation, I know that the law is on my side. I've talked about it enough now to know that the law is on my side that I can handle it. The biggest problem is people who want to pet her. Yes, I get so every single time I leave the house with my assistance dog. 50 percent of the people we come across will want to pet her or interact with her. And that's really difficult because I've spent a long time training her to ignore people when we're working. So if they're trying to do that, that's a really mixed message for her. And so then I'm having to say to people, sometimes like really cute, elderly people or people with children, you know, so you feel awful. Like, actually, can you just ignore her? And I don't know how to say it in a way. And because I'm autistic, I don't know how I'm struggling to say it in a way that doesn't sound mean. Yeah. And I find that that's probably the biggest problem more than the kind of access thing. So if anyone listening to this podcast takes anything away from what I'm saying, it's if you see a service dog or an assistance dog working, don't even look at them. Just ignore them. I suppose there's a lot of unexpected and unwanted social interaction when you just kind of wanting to go out for a day. But dogs are definitely a magnet to a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, it can be good. I don't want to leave on an entirely negative. It can be a positive. It can mean that I have a nice little social interaction with someone with a very scripted, easy, you know, topic. But in general, if you see me about with my dog, if you could just ignore us, that would be brilliant. Brilliant. I'm thinking now might be a good time to to get into the meat of the podcast to talk about late diagnosis. Sure. As a person who has diagnosed at the age of 10, I don't have a lot of experience with I can sort of imagine what it what it may be like, because when I got diagnosed, I didn't have access to all the resources that I have today, like the the knowledge and the experiential knowledge from other people. And so it was only until in my 20s that I really started to kind of process what autism was and how it made me different. And, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So I want to know is what was your life experience like up until the point you realise that you are autistic and what changed? Yeah, OK, that is a big question. It is a big question, yeah. And I don't want to be entirely negative because obviously, you know, life is a series of emotions and ups and downs and there were good bits, you know, but it did. I'd say I don't I don't really remember my childhood a huge amount, which apparently is quite common in autistic people or so my therapist tells me. But I would say from my teenage years, I definitely had a real strong feeling that I wasn't good enough, that whatever I was doing wasn't working and that my main aim was to try and be more like the people who were winning at life, right? So I spent kind of my teens and my 20s trying to be somebody else or trying to build an acceptable personality that would stop people from like taking an instant disliking to me. You know, I would often feel that not everybody. Of course, I had friends and, you know, I met a married my husband during that time. But I just they would there was just too regularly be times when people would just like be like within five minutes be like, oh, my God, this person is so annoying or so whatever. And I just felt like I was getting it wrong and that was really depressing. And so at the same time, I guess I started experiencing mental health problems in my late teens, early 20s, you know, depression, anxiety. It just felt like life was a struggle and my main aim in life was to figure out what on earth was wrong with me so that I could be better and happier. And during that time, I also had three children. And so I went through pregnancy and childbirth and postnatal postnatal experience without the knowledge that I'm autistic. And that was really, really hard because now that I look back on that and I think, you know, of the struggles that I had because when you have a baby, your whole routine is just like gone. There is no routine. There is nothing in your life that looks the same as it did yesterday when you were still pregnant and going through that, not knowing I was autistic. And so just experiencing the way that, as I'm sure you can imagine, you would freak out if that happened to you without the knowledge of why this was happening to my brain or why I was kind of having these experiences was really, really hard. And the other thing that I'd say was really hard was I'm a meltdowner. You don't meet many adult meltdowners. So it's a little bit. I'm I'm happy to put my hand up. I'm I'm an adult meltdowner as well. Amazing. Most people are like, oh, yeah, I don't really melt down. I shut down and I'm like, no, you'll know about it when I go. So but like having meltdowns, but having no idea they were meltdowns makes you feel like maybe you're just a bad person who loses their, you know, loses this. I'm trying to find words that aren't swear words and loses their sense of like rationality on a regular basis. And so I'd be looking at other people and being like, why can't I keep it together like everyone else? I would be taking my children to birthday parties, getting lost on the way there and then ending up having meltdowns because I couldn't find out where I was going and we were going to be late and not knowing why, you know? I imagine it could could sort of produce a lot of thoughts in your brain and like, am I am I crazy? Like, is this a seizure that I'm having or like? Yeah, or am I just like a really bad person? Or, you know, yeah, I just didn't know why. And I also would end up getting so like I ended up not being able to access mental health services because I'd had a meltdown and they decided that that was like unacceptable behavior, so they wouldn't work with me anymore. Really? You know, like stuff like that happened. Really? That happens? Yeah, that happens. It really, really does. Yeah, this is why I'm so keen to work in mental health services these days. So, yeah, that was really hard. And then getting that diagnosis, you know, after my eldest child was diagnosed. I thought when I when I realized I was autistic, but before I'd been assessed and been diagnosed, it was a bit of a relief. And like, I think often late diagnosed autistics, when you first have that realization, it becomes this like obsession, like all I could think about talk about was autism and whether I might be autistic. And it was like almost like a new fun, special interest. And then I got the actual diagnosis and I thought I was going to be thrilled. And actually I wasn't. I felt I think I felt I think part of me before I got the diagnosis thought I'd made the whole thing up in my head and I was going to see a doctor and they were going to be like, well, go away. And when they were like, they were like, this is really an easy diagnosis. I was like, oh, my goodness. And not only am I autistic, but apparently I'm quite obviously autistic. So, yeah, there was like this like, well, this isn't fair. I'm 36. Like all these things I've failed at university. I've failed at this. I've got no career. All these things that I could have had and could have done has been taken away from me because I wasn't born 20 years later when somebody would have noticed I was autistic at your age or at 10 or whatever. So I went through a bit of a period of both grief and disbelief, like grief of what I've said and disbelief of like, maybe they were wrong. Maybe I'm just really good at convincing. I'm quite convincing. Maybe I'm just convinced them that I'm autistic somehow by being really like convincing or like, I think it's weird, isn't it? When you get a diagnosis that isn't based on like a blood test or whatever. And it's like someone's opinion based on things that they've seen. It's a really weird thing, autism and how it's because it's basically it's all about behavior, isn't it? So it's like, you know, it really stands out to me as a misconception that people have about like, oh, I'm a little bit autistic because I have some some behaviors that are related to an autism diagnosis. And, you know, quite often it's, you know, these this diagnostic procedure is is meant to only pick up on signs that you may be autistic. Not not give you autism when you get diagnosed. It's really complex, like idea to kind of wrap your head around, I think. Yeah, it really is. So like wrapping my head around that and also believing that I would say it took like a good three or four years, it was quite a process. And during this time, I'm like speaking at NAS conferences and putting that stuff on the internet. So yeah, but it has in the long term, it's been the start of a process which has which has enabled me to feel better about who I am. It's enabled me to obviously develop a career that I'm proud of. I think it's enabled me to be a better mother to my autistic children because I have that understanding of who I am and therefore the experiences they're likely to have, I guess. And I think, yeah, it's not an excuse for bad behaviour. I would never say that, but I think it's kind of helped me to understand why I've made some of the mistakes that I've made and how I need my life to look and how I need what needs I have in order to bring out my strengths and be the best and the happiest that I can be. So it's a bunch of like there's a lot of sort of steps after you get a diagnosis like diagnosis is just confirmation that that you're autistic and like there's there's lots of different things that you have to work on this, you know, like I said before about sort of only really getting into what autism was, past the sensory social issues in my 20s, it definitely took me probably about I mean, to be honest, I still feel like I'm still learning about it and learning about myself. But it did take me a long time. There was a lot of barriers, like mental barriers that I had to kind of overcome in order to kind of conceptualise what what autism meant to me and how it how it influenced the different perceptions that I have of other people, all of that kind of stuff. And but processing trauma was was like a massive part, you know. Yeah, I think that's a really big one. And it's one that I've become really interested in lately, actually, is the fact that so many autistic people are also traumatised people and what that means for us in terms of how we cope with relationships and how we feel about ourselves. And so, yeah, trauma has been trauma has been my like the last six months. Trauma has been my obsession. If you look at my content in the last six months, probably say trauma more times than I did in the entire six years prior to that. Because I'm realising things like, you know, when I feel deeply rejected by someone doing something relatively minor, I'm actually feeling deeply rejected by all the rejection that I've experienced in my lifetime and that that's just triggering that feeling. You know, I am fires with that. Yeah, it's a really useful thing. And then there's even the small stuff since since getting my diagnosis. Like when I before I was diagnosed, I dressed how the other moms around me dressed because I felt like that's what I was supposed to do. And when I was diagnosed, I like we were more what I wanted to wear, did what I wanted to do, you know, like stopped defining myself by trying to be someone else, essentially. So I stopped like doing things like going out for coffee, you know, because I want to sit in a cafe and chat to someone. It was just what you usually like really noisy as well out there with the coffee grinders and stuff. And, you know, I'd much rather meet someone for a board game or. Yes, I definitely agree with you. Most coffee shops I don't go to, but there's this one coffee shop psych out under there. It's it's Cafe Nero, but it's like it's got like two floors to it. And one is like the the the base floor where most people kind of go and chat to each other. And it's always the noisiest. But then upstairs, you have this like whole open sort of rustic appeal kind of place with loads of really comfy sofas and like a window that you can you can people watch through and it's it's a lovely place for me to go to. I like to go there when I'm like writing and stuff. Yeah, quite like a cafe on my own. I think one of the big realizations for me was like. So I think one of the things that I did to cope with being an undiagnosed autistic was become a performer. Like if nobody will like me generally, at least when I'm on stage, people will clap, you know, it sounds really pathetic when I say it like that, but I guess it was that like need for acceptance, right? It's really, really open of you to to say that because it's, you know, it's not an easy thing to say that you, you know, you find that you pick up on small, small changes in hyper-focusing on on people's body language and facial expressions and differences. And and then something's different in your mood and I can sense it. And I need to tell me. So, yeah, so at that time and up until kind of up until the pandemic, probably I was always surrounded by people. I always had lots of friends. I always had lots of people over to lots of socializing. I've come to realize I don't really like it that much. I quite like being on my own and that's actually OK because. Honestly, I think my story is one of what is it to mask nearly 24, seven, four, nearly 40 years and what impact does that have on your mental health and your well-being? And I can tell you it's very negative and what I'm having to do right now is pull back from that and find spaces where I can be on my own because that's when I'm most likely to unmask because I find it really, really hard to unmask in order to heal my body and my mind as a result of all that extra adrenaline and all that extra trauma that I've been dealing with over those years. Well, thank you for sharing that. Sorry, that got heavy quick. No, no, no, we're all about heavy over here, like. Oh, that's good. I'm your girl. I mean, not your girl. Heaviness is it's an integral part of the podcast. So don't worry about it. So the second question that I have for you is for some people, you know, getting diagnosed is a massive step of courage. You know, you've got all that stigma around the label and you've got this this identity that you've built up over the years and, you know, autism comes along and you it kind of puts that into question and it's quite a scary thing. And it seems that to me there are some shared steps that autistic people take, like we talked about with the process processing trauma. So in your autism journey, do you have times or situations that really stood out as being transformative for your life? Yeah, I would say, I would say so. I would say the first one was like when I first got the diagnosis. And I think the biggest change at that point was the was the decision to find out who I really was. So I didn't know who I was. I wasn't necessarily unmasked or in any way healed, but it was the point at which I went and throwing out everything that I've been doing in order to fit in out of the window. And I'm going to figure out what I want my life to look like. And and that was a point at which I kind of actually got a lot of new friends around that time because because I was talking openly about autism, people who would like got children that were autistic or whatever in my social world, but that weren't necessarily close to me would come into me and become in a part of my world in a way that meant it was about my autism, which was what I needed at that time, I think, to feel safe. Yeah. So that was really useful. And then I would say the next kind of big step, I would say, was the pandemic and the subsequent lockdown. I think that was really, really massive for me. I think before that, I was looking at autism in a more like step by step way, like, so I'm autistic. So that must mean that I need to wear ear defenders and I probably ought to be into comic books, right? I was almost like, almost like Matt trying to mask an autistic person. What do I do to fit in here then? I think especially because at that time, I'm going to be really honest. There were a lot of content creators around and I never felt part of that world because I wasn't young and I wasn't male. And so I was like, yeah, trying to try to put that on. How do I be Sheldon? Is that what I'm doing now? And then the pandemic happened and I like reached out to my community really as my way of coping and said, you know, by which I mean, you know, primarily my YouTube subscriber base, which was like quite a relatively low number. I think I've got like five or six thousand subscribers at that point. And I kind of went, I'm going to do a weekly live stream and I'm just going to be here. That's how many subscribers I have. Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. It's OK. I just mean like, but I know what you mean. It's I was just making a joke for humor's sake. But you're like an Olympian. So you never have to feel bad about yourself, right? Like if I'd got an Olympic medal, I'd just be like, I'd be holding it right now if I were you and like and like rubbing. Have you got an actual you've got a medal, right? It's not an Olympic medal. It's Commonwealth. I mean, that's still pretty amazing. Do you want to see it? So yeah, I want to see your medal. Here you go. Oh, wow. Is it gold? Did you get gold? I did. I did get a gold. Wow. That's amazing. Well done. Thank you. That's that's really impressive. Way more impressive than a bunch of YouTube subscribers for sure. Anyway, have I dug myself out of that hole? I think you've sufficiently dug yourself out of it. So yeah, so I started doing these weekly live streams and I spent and at the same time, I guess, like everyone else was spending a lot of time on my own without having to like dress up for the world. If you know what I mean. And that was a really transformative time for me because I kind of was I was given a chance to sit with myself, I guess, in a way that you're not in the regular world because you're busy with work and children and life. And I was given a chance to really, really think about who I am. And then I think being given this like responsibility of this community of people that came around me because of doing these live streams and they were all listening to me. So I was like, well, you know, I probably ought to be saying and doing sensible things if I'm inspiring other people. And that really gave me like partly gave me a confidence like, oh, gosh, I'm actually useful, you know, something about me is useful. People are appreciating me. And it gave me the chance to really like come out is the word that I would use even though it's not about sexuality or gender, but come out as like, I don't need to perform anymore. I don't need like I'm enough as I am kind of thing. So that I'd say that period of lockdown, particularly the first lockdown, but you know, the period since then was the point at which I have become more holistic and whatever in my approach to autism, less like here's a bunch of facts about autism that I want to tell you are more like here's how it actually feels and here's what it actually means that we all carry. I don't know whether that's made sense. No, no, I get what you mean. It's like, it's like a shift from fact-based content to more of a, having more of the experiential aspects to it. Is that is that? And then taking that and running with it in like, what can I do for my community and for myself? And then I also did some therapy. I'm seeing a therapist now. For the first time, I'm seeing a therapist who specializes in working with autistic people and people with ADHD. I need one of those. So that's been really helpful. I need one of those. Yeah, it's been very helpful. That's been really, really helpful. So I think I'm optimistic. I hope that in five years time, I'm gonna look back on this period and say this is the period at time of time in which I healed myself. So it's like a new adolescence, isn't it? It's finding your place in the world and your identity. I do think that you're right in saying coming out about it because it's coming out with your, you're coming out as you rather than a mask, you know? It's quite... And also not like looking for external, I think if you're on social media, making content, whether you wanna admit to it or not, to some extent you're looking for external validation, aren't you? Like, right? And I certainly definitely was in the early days. And I think in the last year, I've reached the point where I'm genuinely not, I am genuinely not. When I put out content, I'm not like, how's this gonna be received? I'm like, what do I actually have to say that is a value and how do I wanna do it and screw however many views it gets or whatever. And that feels like a really healthy place to be in. Sure. No, I completely agree with you with that. Because it's such a personal thing and autism is very different person to person, it can sometimes feel like, am I telling people about what autism is or am I telling people about me or telling me about my experience of being autistic or so I often have that sort of mental barrier in my head that I'm like, should I really be talking about this? Is this something that everyone experiences or am I just talking about me? I feel like, I wanna get to the point, do you ever feel like this? I feel like I almost don't wanna put autism as a label in the conversation. I feel like I almost just wanna be going, this is what I'm experiencing, anyone else? Yeah. I get that. So, one of the things that is a very big topic and has been for a while is unmasking. How do you unmask? What is the process of unmasking? Yeah, I mean, that's another huge question, isn't it? Because I think my answer would have been different on every year that you asked me, this year the answer is for me personally, learning to stim has been a big part of unmasking because as a child, I definitely stimmed, I remember stimming, I remember walking around supermarkets doing stuff with my arms and my mom being like, stop it, at like the age of like 13, we're not talking small child, you know? And I definitely learned not to stim and then what's been beautiful, I think we're unfortunate in having autistic children who I have never, ever encouraged to mask or not stim, is watching them stim and see how that benefits them. And then I started to stim with, particularly my youngest child because she doesn't go to school. So we spend a lot of time together. And yeah, she has some really cute stims that are quite reminiscent of the ones that I had when I was little. Yeah, so learning to stim. Stimming with your autistic child. With your child. There's actually a TikTok video of a stimming, it might even be on Instagram, of a stimming together and I do love it. Makes me smile every time I watch it because she doesn't look like I've gone, oh stim for camera, she just looks like she's in heaven and I've managed to capture it and that's beautiful. So learning to stim and I think the first time I realized I was in a difficult situation in the world, something had happened and I was stimming and I hadn't noticed I was doing it, you know? And I was like, oh, okay, that's good. I've actually reclaimed that, brilliant. That's been a big part of it because I think stimming is such an important part of how we regulate that when you're not stimming in public, that's a big part of that mask, isn't it? And then I think the next part of it for me has been turning off the entertainer, because I am a born entertainer, I do love it, but it's not normal to be entertaining while sitting around the dinner table or making breakfast or in regular life. And I think I'd reached the point where because I've always been like that because that's part of my mask, I felt like people expected that from me because it was what people liked about me that I'm funny, that I'm entertaining. And like, if I don't do that, will people still like me? And so I'm really like in the very, very early stages of trying to do that, and I can really only do it around my family and my very, very closest friends. Like just losing the face and you know, like, all of this, it's an act, it's all an act. Underneath that, I'm quite dull really. And then the final thing, I mean, I would not say that, it's just, it's an exaggeration of your personality and it's just what you have to do when you're on the internet. And then the other thing I would say that I've done that's been really important, I think would be useful for other people is I have made like, I've journaled and I've made art around how do I see myself physically? How do I perceive myself? What do I genuinely love as opposed to what have I been saying that I love because I felt like I was supposed to love it? Like even stupid stuff, like I absolutely do love Doctor Who with all of my heart and all of my soul. You know, there's no lie there. So like really figuring out what are those things that make up my life, that make me happy, that are who I am. And then finally working out what my values are. Because I think when we mask, it's not just the mask of how do we actually present ourselves in the world. It's also the mask of what do we say we believe, politically, what do we say we love in order to feel like we're fitting in with everybody else, you know? And so kind of like, I actually made a value statement. What are my values? What is important to me? Who do I want to be in the world? And so that's what I've been doing and it's really, really been very helpful. I would definitely recommend it. That is a really great point. Like honestly, like I got really excited when you were talking about values and meaning because it's something that I've looked into a lot. Especially around like coping with mental health and things like that. I do think you're right. I think that, you know, we actively try and, you know, when we're in that state of trying to fit in and be a part of the world and be successful and we do take on board other people, you know, people that we see and they're like, oh, I want to be like this person, you know, what do they value and what do they, you know? And it's sometimes really, really positive to kind of sit down and go, what do I actually value? Like what brings me meaning in my life and joy and things like that. I would actually highly recommend, I'm just thinking, as you're saying that, I'm thinking, you know how like we're living in like extremely woke times and cancel culture and all that. You know how like neurotypical people are all like, oh my God, it feels like you can't speak freely anymore. Are they like experiencing autistic must be? Maybe. Maybe. Like that they've got to be a certain way or they're going to get canceled because that is exactly how we felt, right? Yeah. Oh, I'm going to make a video about that. That's a whole topic there, isn't it? That's a juicy topic. Yeah, yeah. So I'd also really recommend, I've been doing a stoic journal. I don't know whether you know about stoicism. I love stoicism. Yeah. So I've been doing like a daily stoic journal since the start of the year. And that's a lot about that as well, figuring out what your values are, what's important to you. And I found that really helpful. One of the other things that I was interested in, so we talked about unmasking and like processing trauma and stuff. Did you at all in your journey go through a stage of denial or a version to go around and get in a diagnosis? No, I didn't know because I think, because I'd already processed, maybe because my child was diagnosed ahead of me. You know, only months ahead of me, only about four or five months ahead of me, but because I maybe went through that with them, maybe I'd already done that, like by proxy, if you like. Like, should I be doing this? Should I be labeling them? Should I, what does this mean? I think because I'd like firmly concluded in my mind that all that we were talking about was a descriptor. Yeah. You know, that it was okay. But my child, they went through, my eldest went through it. I don't think I'm autistic actually, draw a face. Which was fun. Well, it's a weird thing, autism and teenagers, because you don't want to hear anything that your parents are talking about to do with you and who you are, because you're kind of in that stage where you're trying to break off and like trying to assert some level of independence. And you know, I definitely, I'm not ashamed to say that I definitely did that when I was younger around mental health. I think I would say my middle child is doing that. My middle child is 13 and they're definitely doing what you're describing. My eldest, I don't think it's been like that, but that's perhaps because she's trans and because she's autistic and because I've been the main support in that. We are really, really close and I don't feel like there is that resistance. So maybe that's one of the silver linings to her challenge, her life struggles. Cool. So, I mean, not call about the life struggle. I know what you meant, I know what you meant. Sorry, I won't cancel you. If you don't cancel me, I won't cancel you. So what I want to ask you next is, what are some common misconceptions or comments you've received about your late diagnosis by people either in your life or online? I think I would say, I think I've been, from what I've heard from other people, I think I've been quite fortunate in that most of the people in my actual life either embrace the fact that I am autistic and what that means for our relationship moving forward or at least pretended to do so. So I didn't receive any negative feedback or any judgment from the people in my real life or in my non-online life. And even online, compared to what I know some people have gone through on the whole, I don't deal with too much discourse. But of course, of course, I get the comments that I'm not really autistic and that I'm high functioning and that I'm somehow just doing this for money. I'd really like to know where the money for being autistic comes from because if you had it yet, did you get some of the payment? I didn't. That I'm doing it for money, that I'm taking resources that other people shouldn't take. You know, yeah, like a little bit, but it's been quite minimal. I feel like I've been quite fortunate and I've always had this approach as well, yeah, of just deleting it. So I just, I sort of decided quite early on in my YouTube career that I was not gonna let these idiots get to me or impact how I felt and that the second comment was negative or bullying, not negative, like someone can disagree with me in a respectful way. As soon as it crossed the line into being disrespectful or bullying or unacceptable behavior, I would just delete it straight away. So now I've become quite good at just, and it almost satisfies me. Like I got a comment recently that was like three full paragraphs on why I'm not autistic. Three, four paragraphs, I've got 600 words, yeah, on why I'm not really autistic. And when I deleted it, it was like almost joyful. Like, oh my God, you must have spent so long writing this mean comment, it's gonna really annoy you. So it's just gone. You know? I'm gonna go with that one. But I just don't, I think like I've kind of decided that other people's opinions are none of my business, of me, are none of my business and that I can't be concerned with them. So I really just genuinely don't give it a huge amount of thought. You know, I recently had some massive backlash and a lot of really negative comments about my gender identity. And I know we're not here to talk about that today, but it was very, very harsh and people said some very, very unkind things about me, including that I am not fit to be a mother, which is kind of one of the biggest insults you can give to a parent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just doesn't make any sense. Because I'm non-binary and because I talk about it on the internet, I'm essentially grooming teenagers. Apparently. Yeah, I know. And that was hard, but it taught me a really important lesson in that no matter what I do, no matter what I say, there are going to be people in the world who don't like me or don't believe my experience for whatever reason they have for doing so. And that if I give them any power or any space in my head, then they're winning. And I won't let them win, so I won't let them in. Very well said. I've definitely had my fair share of negative comments in the past. Really? As you could probably tell from my name, I tend to get a lot of, you're a eugenicist and a Nazi, and things like that. I'm not making the link. Why would your name? Because I use Asperger's grove. Oh, the Aspie thing. Yeah, but, and I would ask you, I've got two questions for you. I know it's your podcast, but I'm hosting just for a minute. Firstly, would you be using that name if you were to name it now? I'm not saying you shouldn't. Like I don't have any gender, I'm just curious. I think it definitely served me well to have that name. I think the only issue that I have with my name is that I don't like it. I don't like how it sounds. It just doesn't seem like a very punchy kind of title. I can't just say to someone, if I'm doing some networking, Asperger's grove and they'll be like, oh, how do I spell that? And like... Yeah, yeah, I get that. I mean, my name doesn't even connect me to autism, so I'm not sure I did a great job of naming things. Sure. And would you say that, I actually have three questions as it turns out, would you say that you're... Were you diagnosed with Asperger's? I was, and it's still on my records. It hasn't been changed. So, personally, although I don't tend to use the word Asperger's because of its links to Hans Asperger, I would always caveat that with if that is what you were diagnosed with and identified as a very young child, right? And that feels like a part of your identity. I would never say you shouldn't use that word because it is connected with him, but it is also something that's connected with you now because you carried it for so long, right? Well, I mean... So that makes sense to me. You know, we can always debate language and I've made many posts in the past which is along the lines of like, it's okay to have an opinion on using it, but when someone goes out and says, like, everyone should use Asperger's, you should just use it, like, why are you not using it? Then I would have an issue with that. I think if it was just me saying, like, this is why I use Asperger's. And, you know, someone else was like, oh, this is why I call myself autistic. Like, I wouldn't have any issues with that because it's just a personal preference. I think the problem is that it's celebrating. So like an interesting parallel, I guess, would be, I don't know whether you know, but I'm in Bristol where the Colston statue got taken down during Black Lives Matter march. Did you hear about that? I did not know about that. So Colston was a slave trader who built a lot of Bristol. And during the Black Lives Matter march, they took down a prominent statue of him in the centre of the city and they'd stuck it in the river. And we all cheered and I cheered. I fully stand by that. And in the time since then, a lot of things that were named after Colston, like Colston Hall and Colston Girls' School, have been renamed because essentially in using that name, what we were doing was celebrating a slave trader and giving his name an integral part of our city. And so I suppose there are some parallels between that and the word Asperger's in that. I don't actually know a huge amount about it, but my understanding is that Hans Asperger was a Nazi sympathiser. But that is just my understanding of the situation. So I suppose that when we use Asperger's as a term that gets used widely, we are like keeping alive the name of someone who potentially wasn't a good person. I guess that's why people might have an issue with it. I completely get that. That said, if I'd named my channel in 2016 something, I might have included the word Asperger's because at that time I didn't know that. And I might feel that it's difficult for me to rebrand something that I've been known at for a really long time. Although, as the princess, Chloe Hayden did recently do just that, which I thought was quite interesting. It's funny that you say that because I'm wanting to rebrand at the moment. Firstly, because I don't like Asperger's growth name, I just, it doesn't roll off the tongue for me. And another one is I don't want it to stop people from reading my stuff or listening to me or, you know, and if I can, I can deal with like the hate from it and I can deal with the painful messages and things of that nature. But why do people have to deal with it like that? Why can't they just be like, I don't love your name, but great content. Yeah, exactly. And I would be fine with that. It's just, it's immediately they put me into a box because they're like, oh, here's a male. He looks like he goes to the gym. He must be a straight, straight white cis male. And all of that. And then I immediately got all of these different labels that quite frankly, most of them don't, other than cis male and white, like, they don't apply to me, but I just get put in the box because I don't. Yeah, that must be really hard. I don't sort of lend myself to the popular idea that I should not use Aspergis, but it's... I think that's the problem though. I think we do really live in like mob mentality at the moment, don't we? Like, I don't know about you, but I'm terrified of saying the most thing on the internet these days in a way that I wasn't when we first started. You know, you've been around for a while as well, haven't you? It's like, I haven't yet said the wrong thing on the internet to my knowledge, but I am someone who just says what I think. So it could very easily happen. And it doesn't give anybody any room for growth or learning, because it's like, if I'm scared to say anything, if I'm silenced by the fear of saying the wrong thing, or if I'm silenced by having conversations in which I would learn, how do I learn? How do I grow? I find it really worrying. It's like, pick a side and hunker down, isn't it, at the moment? And I don't love that. No, I'm very firmly on no side. Yeah, me too. I keep a little bit of an eye on how things may be perceived, but it just inhibits my ability to create content because I'm like, oh, did I say this? Or then I start questioning myself, and then after a while I have been silent for like five seconds and I'm, you know, how do I speak about this? I think that's a really good book by Brené Brown. Have you come across Brené Brown? Brené Brown. She's awesome, so she speaks about, what does she speak about? I mean, just like personal development stuff, really. And she's written this book called Into the Wilderness, Braving the Wilderness, Braving the Wilderness that I read at some point during the pandemic. And it talks about this, like being vulnerable and holding your truth even in a world where you can get cancelled for it. And one of the things that really struck me in that book was she was talking about, look, you might be a left wing, you know, you might be left wing, you might be like really opposed to voting conservative. You might have a neighbor who is like a massive Tory supporter, but also this neighbor, when you were unwell, brought you food. And when you needed a lift somewhere, gave you that lift. And if we stop having, so yes, I wouldn't personally use aspergers in my work these days, but I'm not going to let that stop me from potentially building a relationship with like you who I've only just met in terms of like networking and knowing someone because you use that in your name, because it is one facet of who you are. And we are never going to find, what do we want to do? Live in a world where everyone is exactly like us with exactly the same opinions. That sounds really dull to me. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you for the questions. I actually really enjoy taking questions. That's like, it's the main thing that I do outside the podcast, going over people's stuff. Oh, cool. So I've got one more question and then we'll do a couple of interview questions from Instagram. Askberg is great if anybody is listening, if you want to ask a question. What advice would you give to people who are considering a diagnosis but are hesitant to commit for various reasons? I would say in reality, I would always want to caveat anything that I say around this that we don't live in a world where the diagnostic procedure is really perfect. We don't live in a world where the referral process is perfect. And there are people going for assessment who are autistic but are not receiving that diagnosis because of gender biases or race biases. That's a fact. And I think we need to say that if we ever speak about access and diagnosis, but if you want to go for it anyway and give it a try, keep that in mind. Don't let the experience invalidate your experience. I would say my first piece of advice would be like practical stuff, like make a list of the reasons you think you might be autistic to take with you to the GP. So that you have that to reference or even give to them if you find yourself a little bit tongue tied. Don't take no for an answer. They might say, you don't need an assessment. You're fine. You've got a job, whatever. Don't take no for an answer. You have a right to be referred for an autism assessment. Use that right. Kind of like I would say throughout that diagnostic process, learning to be your own best advocate and not feeling bad about that is really important. Learning to guard your boundaries and know what you have a right to so that you can confidently say, I did everything that I could to support myself to access this assessment. And outside of that, I would say give yourself time to process what you're experiencing and what you're learning about yourself and look after yourself like you would your very best friend because this is heavy stuff. It's life-changing stuff and you're gonna need to eat a lot of cake and watch a lot of your favorite TV show in order to kind of like regulate and cope with that experience. Brilliant. Thank you, Ella. I think in my minds, when someone would say that, they're hesitant to go for a diagnosis, I think about my dad and I think about people in my life who are quite obviously autistic. Like, I know it's a thing to say that, I'm pretty sure that someone's autistic without having diagnosed them or anything like that, but it's just very apparent sometimes. And I was talking to this man called Peter Bainbridge as part of my documentary, Us Burgers in Society. And he mediates between autistic people and like the law or like housing, accommodation, things of that nature or within families. And the thing that he said is that most autistic people will go through their life sort of trying to ignore that part of them up until the point where they need to pay attention to it. And sometimes that's at the point where they've experienced like a really negative bad life experience or trauma. For me, a part of that was being lonely at university and not knowing how to make friends and recently broken up with my long-term partner. You know, I was quite in a place of quite heavy isolation and that's what encouraged me to start my YouTube channel and try and learn more about autism and trying to verbally process it myself. Do you think there's any way to get around that for people? Like, do you think that we could change something about society or about the processes or the way that people view autism that would make it easier for people to, you know, not feel such an aversion to getting diagnosed? There's a very long question. Yeah, I'm just processing it. I'm just not masking and giving myself time to process it rather just splitting out whatever comes into my head first. Yeah, I would say that the more, one of the things I think that's really helpful is the more kind of high profile people that get diagnosed with autism talk about it. So like I'm talking about people like Anthony Hopkins. Right, I love the fact that Anthony Hopkins was the only 70s when he was diagnosed. Wow. And so, you know, people, because of the age that I am, I get a lot of audience in their 50s and their 60s even and many of them are saying, oh, is it too late? Is it too late to do this? Do I need to do this? Oh, hang on, I just needed to let my dog in. Sorry. You're going to be able to see Coco. Come on, Stinks. Come on, Anne. Oh, come on, you silly girl. Here she is. Hello. Hi, Coco. She's cute, right? Yeah, she's a girl. She's beautiful. So like I always sort of say, it's great to have people like people in the public eye are really useful when I'm reassuring people about getting diagnosis because I can say, well, look, Anthony Hopkins obviously felt it was worth doing in the 70s, so, you know, that means that it's worth doing for anyone. And I think like just changing the stereotypes around autism generally, like this idea that we're all cold and unfeeling and difficult to be around and that all autistic people are the same and that we're all really mathy, like just dispelling as many of those like myths and stereotypes until we reach a point where it's recognized that autistic people, and you know, people with all the like common comorbidities like ADHD and dyslexia and dyspraxia are essentially just human beings with brains that work differently, but that that looks different on every single personality. And if we just, if we reach the point of starting to just see that as like in a more normal, just a part of our world, a part of our culture, then it won't be so scary to identify as that. And people will be less scared to like go and access the diagnosis. But I think, I think honestly, the main reason people are scared to go forward for diagnosis at this point is the fact that they know they'll be waiting a really long time and they'll likely be told that they're not autistic. So I think diagnostic services need to improve. And in that, I think that we're doing it completely wrong anyway, this is just my like non-professional opinion. But like, why are we diagnosing autism at this clinic and ADHD over here and dyslexia over there? You know, like, I mean, do you have any comorbidities? Are there aren't that many autistic people who don't have an add-on? I've got dyslexia and ADHD and things like, you know, so like I really feel like it would be more useful at this point to be going, right, what is your neurodivergent profile? What are your strengths? What support needs do you have that enable you to like really reach those strengths and be the happiest they can be. And just to like be getting information about that in one place rather than put, trying to almost put us in these separate boxes. Does that make any sense? Out of the course of months. A long time and probably costing more money than if we did it all in one place. Indeed. Looks at it more holistically, right? Yeah. No, I completely, I completely understand that. Like I think it's really worth, you know, considering the sort of stigma around being autistic is like, it's not only that a lot of people think it's a negative thing, just fully, just completely negative thing. It's also that I just don't think there's enough representation of, you know, the whole spectrum, you know, like a lot of different autistic people's voices. It just seems to be a very, so it seems to be in the media that any stories that are around autism are always about trying things despite your condition or despite being autistic rather than- Or like being some kind of a genius, like the good doctor, right? Where you've got a mind palace. Sure. Those kind of- But don't you think that's true of like representation generally? Yeah. So I've been watching Heartstopper. If you watched Heartstopper, the big Netflix, you know, I'm way too old to be watching Heartstopper. I watched it with my kids and it's basically a great show with LGBTQ plus representation. Brilliant, brilliant. Lovely. But what I'd like to see moving forwards with all minority groups and representation in media is for their minority statuses to just be not the entire focus or not to be like, this is a show about an autistic gay person that's really focused on their gayness and their autism. And they've got no other personality. That's their whole personality, you know? Indeed. Like if we were just incidentally in shows, you know, with a disclosed diagnosis, I think that is a useful thing because otherwise we get the Sheldon situation where it's like, well, we can make a whole show where we mock an autistic person because we never actually said he was autistic, you know? But like if we can have like out autistic characters in shows but that it's not the show about the autistic person and they're just like, so if we're one in, what's the stats? One in 10, one in, how many of us are there? Have you, do you know? I think it's increased to like one in 50 or something like that. So if we're like one in 50, right? In every show where there's 50 characters, one of them should be autistic, you know? I think, I do agree with you. It's just always the highlight. It's always the reason why the mainstream media takes some border story to say, oh, they're disabled, they're autistic or something. And so we'll get them on and, you know, it'll make the achievement seem even more better because, you know, they've got that all factor, you know? Yeah, like the disability hero, the disability porn kind of thing that I can't remember, I always like to cite the lady. The inspiration porn, do you know what the lady was that talked about that? Because I never like to talk about something without crediting the person. Maybe you could put it in the show notes. Go for it. I've got a growing list of tabs on my computer. But basically her whole thing, Stella Young. I'm going to say Stella Young, but I could be wrong. And she talked about how like it's much more comfortable to be around disabled people if they are inspirational. So it's like, oh my God, you've got dressed. How did you do that? That's so amazing. And it's like, we don't want to be your inspiration. We don't want to have magical gifts. We don't want to have superpowers. We're just people who have brains that work a little bit differently to the majority. And I think when we get rid of that narrative, that will be really useful as well. Like that, like, you're so amazing because you aren't curled up in a ball crying about your terrible brain, you know? The listeners cannot see, but I am squinching my face. Well, that's the end of the main sort of body of questions. We've got a couple from Instagram. How did you get Instagram questions? Did you ask them? Yes. Yeah, yeah. You asked them like a story. I did it early in the week. And people did actually want to ask me things? They do. Not that I'm looking for external motivation because I'm totally not. No, I'm sure many people would love to ask you any number of questions because you do some amazing work online. Like, you do. Oh, thank you. So we've got the first one is, what to do about the cost of getting a diagnosis and the wait times? What can I do in the meantime of waiting? What do you do in the meantime while you're waiting? I would say that it is totally OK to treat yourself as if you are autistic while you are waiting to access an assessment, whatever the barriers that might be, and to learn from your own experience, from advocates, from wherever you want to learn about autism, about things that might support you as an autistic person and to implement them and to see that if they improve your life because they're certainly not going to make your life worse. And even if at the end of the day you weren't diagnosed with autism for whatever reason, if the strategies and the things you're doing to support yourself are helping, they would still be valid. So it's still a useful thing to do. And I would also use that time to like learn about myself and to learn about autism. And I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need a doctor to tick a box to say you're allowed to look after yourself better now and that you're allowed to love yourself and that you're allowed to feel valid presenting to the world in the way that you feel that you do. I don't think there's anything that I can add on to that one. You've pretty much said it all, I think. So I've got the second one here which is how do I get my partner to get a diagnosis? Ooh, I mean, do they want to access an assessment? I guess that's asking how do I persuade another person to want to find out something about themselves that I think is true, but maybe they don't. Yeah, I get a lot of messages because I make a lot of stuff around relationships and dating and things. Yeah, I've had this question before. I know a lot of people asking about, you know, their partner like getting their diagnosis and being some negative things to not knowing how they function and stuff like that. Yeah, well, interestingly, I've got a little aside for you in that my husband, when I was first diagnosed, went to a group for parents, partners of autistic people, a support group. And he only went twice because he was like, I don't want to go and sit in a room and moan about you two hours. That seemed to be the main kind of motivation for the group. And he was just like, I don't really feel like that. It's true. I've seen the Facebook groups that I've infiltrated the partners of autistic people. Ooh, have you? What did they say about us? It's a lot of complaining. And it's a lot of like talking about how they don't have any emotions and... So can we set up a partners of neurotypical people Facebook group and talk about how they are really loud and spontaneous and talk about things that are not interesting? So interestingly, I'm bringing out a video this very evening. So I guess at some point in the past when you're listening to this that I've made with my husband, that we're talking about our marriage. And it's the first time he's ever been on my channel. So it's kind of a big deal. I'm talking about our marriage and how that works. And something that he said that I thought was really interesting. When I said, what are the challenges? I asked him what are the challenges of being married to an autistic person? He was like, I mean, I don't really think of them as challenges of being married to an autistic person. I think of them as learning to live your life with another person and the challenges that come alongside that whoever that person is. Yeah. And I think that's really useful thing is that we're not all the same and everybody's got stuff. But going back to the question that's been asked, I would say you can't. You can't make somebody go and have an assessment for something that they don't want to do. You can encourage them by talking to them about the fact that you think that they might have autism. You can leave around literature that might be helpful. You can share resources, videos, podcasts with them that might kind of help them reach that realization. But ultimately, it's not OK to tell someone else how to define their brain. Definitely. There was this one instance where someone someone messaged me about. It's always very difficult to like offer people relationship and dating advice just from like just from a message about the situation. Like, I don't know what you're like with them. I don't know what the dynamic is or the events that have come up. You know, I don't only you know that and there was this one instance where like their husband of had left them because they thought that they were toxic or something along those lines. And they think that it's something to do with them being autistic and undiagnosed and not knowing how to regulate their emotions. And things like such a complex question, isn't it? Oh, it really is. Because, yeah, this I get similar questions. Like, I've had people emailing me really intimate details about their girlfriends because they're looking at me and going, well, you're autistic and I've got an autistic girlfriend. Let me tell you about like all their deep personal stuff. And then you can tell me how to fix my relationship. And I'm like, firstly, not a therapist. Secondly, not really keen on unpaid labor. And thirdly, like it's it's possible to be autistic and an asshole. That's the fact. Yeah, it is true. So by which I mean, if someone is treating you in abusive way, their autism is almost irrelevant. You should not be living with abuse. And if someone is treating you in an abusive way, but you believe it's because of their autism, like like you said, it's led to them having these issues, which, you know, I carried some of that. And I'm sure my husband dealt with some stuff that wasn't ideal because of that in the past. Likewise. But. But you still need to hold them accountable and you still need to have your personal boundaries of what you will and won't accept within a relationship, regardless of someone's neurology, right? Yeah, you know, you're not the carer. You're a partner. Yeah. It may be some some aspects of, you know, helping with certain things, but for the most of it, it's a romantic relationship, you know, and they're your partner is important to treat it as that. I'm responsible for me. He's responsible for him, but where he's willing to support me with stuff that I struggle with, like he can calm me down when I've had a meltdown or, you know, he can help me if an unexpected change happens and I'm going, I don't know what to do now. And he can kind of go, yeah, here's the things that I would recommend. But like, if I would not want him to tolerate abusive behavior from me and say, oh, it's OK, it's because she's autistic. I would want him to say this behavior was unacceptable and I cannot live with it and you need to work. You need to change that. Yeah, I completely agree with that. So that's that's our Instagram Q&A. Cool. Why I want to ask you now, which is perhaps a very difficult question for most people, including myself. What do you want people to take away from the podcast? About from this podcast. About late diagnosis. We've talked about a lot of things. Yeah, specifically. What do you want? Let me think about this. I want people to take away compassion for themselves. You know, if you're someone who is lived with autism all your life without knowing that you are autistic, you are probably also someone who has self-esteem issues and often feels like you aren't good enough and like who you are isn't acceptable. And so I would like you to take away from this podcast. But if I as an entirely intense person who really felt like that for a really long time, I've reached a place where I can say I am enough as I am, then you can too. And that there's hope that that's a place that you can sit in in the future. Brilliant. Very well spoken. So, yeah, as part of the season two, I have a couple of things. One is your song of choice. Now, this I love this segment is all about sharing a piece of music that means something to the topic or means something to you. And you get to share the do you get to actually play it as well? I probably won't be able to get the licensing for that. Yeah, licensing to go to your music provider of choice and listen to this song. My favourite song is a song by David Bowie, who is to begin with as a massive hero of mine, because as a young, quirky teenager living in a very mainstream world, I looked to him and I saw someone who also was different. And I felt hope that there was a world that I could live in and be different as cheesy as that sounds. It's true. And the song is Cooke's, which is a song in which the kind of main lyric is if you stay with us, you're going to be pretty kooky, too, which is a song that makes me think about the fact that as, you know, now as a mother, you know, just this idea of us as a family, just in our kooky, crazy world, being who we are and it being OK. It just makes me feel happy when I listen to that song. That's beautiful. So we also have our profile of the day, which I have not. I have not done. What does that mean? What is a profile just highlighting people who have done done something, you know, particularly people, particularly good social media people or people in general social media people on Instagram. OK, who do I who on Instagram? Who do I think is like I was going to do it, but you're very welcome. Oh, you do it. No, no, go for it, because I don't actually follow anyone because I'm really anti-social. Sorry. It's OK. I think I think today we're going to highlight one of our future guests, Autistic Callum. Callum is a really great guy. We're going to talk on the podcast soon about what's called self advocacy, which I think is a is a is a good point. So we were talking about earlier about, you know, advocating for yourself in a diagnosis situation and to doctors. It's all very important stuff. He also, you know, he talks a lot about sort of like unwritten rules in the workplace. He talks about a whole host of different things, and he's a really great creator and he's he's well deserving of the following that he has. So, yeah, that's that's our profile of the day. Oh, cool. Yeah, I've not come across Callum before. I'll check that out. It's really cool. It makes some really great posts. So this is coming to the to the end of the podcast. You can find the 4080 podcast on pretty much every single podcasting platform that you can help to find it. Apple, Google, Spotify, all on the 4080 podcast. You can also visit my website where I offer an array of different things, including doing anonymous interviews for Instagram, as well as modeling and public speaking. And of course, check out my my Instagram and YouTube account, which is Asperger's growth for a lot of stuff around dating, mental health, autism, lots of different things. And yeah, also something that I have not done before. Please like and rate my podcast because I have like no ratings. And it's it's especially an Apple podcast. That would be really great if you can give me a five stars. I'm not going to say how many stars, but five is five is the best one for me. Times are good now. Yeah, it's just a nice comfortable number, you know, to. Yeah, to really buy. Of course, thank you to all of my YouTube members and my Patreon supporters. Ella, it's been lovely to speak to you. I've you know, I've been following you and stuff for a while. And it's been it's been great to kind of have a chat. Um, find out what what what life is like for you and find out more about your your diagnosis journey. Have you enjoyed being on the podcast? Yeah, I have really enjoyed it. I think I really like maybe I should make a podcast. I really like podcasts. You just kind of sitting around and having a chat, which is one of my favorite things to do. Yeah, you definitely should. You do have you do have talent for podcasting, definitely. I may all just appear on everybody else because I don't really have time. There's a lot of them. You said it before about Dr. Who, do you know about Mason, Crohn's and autism advocate? Because he's he's doing a series on his podcast about Dr. Who. Oh, I think he should talk to me about that. So that's that's another link there. But anyway, I really hope you have all got something valuable from this podcast. I definitely have and, you know, learning a bit more about what it's like to be diagnosed later in life, the challenges, the benefits, the ups and downs. And yeah, it's been really great to talk to you, Ella. And I hope you have a lovely day. Thank you. Goodbye. See you later, peeps.