 Hello everyone, this is Ross at teacher talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK today I am interviewing Sarah Oberlie Sarah is a doctoral student a teacher and a doctoral student at the University of Delaware and in this episode We're gonna unpick memory and cognitive science and see where the conversation takes us. So Sarah. Thank you for joining me How are you? Now just for context for listeners and we were just having a quick conversation before we pressed the record button and we I was writing a book on memory. You were doing a literature review on working memory and we Connected about gosh four months ago or so. Maybe around that time. Oh gosh. Yeah, maybe Yeah, and You you were kind enough to send some super detailed feedback On my books. We'll talk about that in a bit, but I want to talk about Your literature review on working memory I suppose and then we'll we'll go through my usual questions on my podcast And we'll unpick who you are and things like that, but tell me I guess how we came to be and what you're working on at the time. Is the paper published now? No, so it's not meant for publishing although, you know, I would love for that to happen I teach first grade. So I Don't know if you have grades in the UK, but for us, that's six and seven year olds. Yeah, no, we call them year year groups Okay, so six and seven year olds would be you two. Yeah, you're two year one year two about that time. Yeah Right And you know just in my practice, I've been doing it for I just finished my 14th year I see a lot of issues with Just processing breakdowns, which for the little ones just looks like, you know, they shut down or they cry or they just look at you Exasperated and say I don't know And as I started to learn about memory, I thought gosh, how much of this is just that Working memory breakdown And I thought if teachers would would know about this and be able to identify it Perhaps you wouldn't have so many kids who are being labeled as lazy or you know ADD You know unmotivated. So I really wanted to study working memory as it pertains to practice So what I did was I created a document that just kind of explains in teacher friendly language. It's not super technical What working memory is And what it's not as well and what it looks like when it's sort of Going awry it particularly in the classroom Yeah, what the problem we have here in the England at the moment is a lot of inspectors for school inspections We'll go into classrooms or talk to pupils in groups We have a kind of one-size-fits-all inspection process for our schools So there's very little variation for if you work with grade one grade six I should say sorry or year six year two and sixes and part of my sentiment analysis we're looking at off-stead, which is our inspection system here in the England is looking at where working memory is used as a phrase when inspectors talk to pupils and For me all the dots are connecting because you know thinking about your literature review and what working memory looks like in a Five-year-old compared to a 16-year-old it's going to be very different isn't it and could I ask as it too early to kind of Draw upon any conclusions from your research so far You know, I wouldn't say there's particular conclusions I would just say that I think that maybe it sounds like even where you are It's perhaps thrown around the terms working memory and I know for me over the years I've seen people say well, is it a working memory problem? But I don't know that we ever really knew what it truly was right like it's not short-term memory. It's not attention So I think just giving teachers the tools to understand how to identify not diagnosed Right because we're not diagnosticians, but to be able to say Here's what I think is going on here And then Here's what I can do to support my students rather than just saying, you know, I think they have a problem with working memory It's like, okay. Well, what do we do that? Is that true? And then what do we do? How do we help our students? So, you know and a lot of it I will say a lot of the supports are things that We're already doing well a lot of and and it but it's more trial and error versus something that's purposeful because you're identifying and Recognizing that this is a specific issue So Yeah, I think it's just you know, I think the teachers maybe get a little Put off by the science behind it, which is why I felt like there was a need to just Break it down. Yeah, you mentioned that There's a big explosion with academic research for teachers. I guess it's making it's making sure it's accessible and teacher-friendly language is is an essential and Just one more question on the subject and I'd like to return to actually and I Guess that a hallmark of a child suffering from working memory would be I don't know confusion And not completing the task opting out. Is that the type of things that you see in in Your kind of context of research Yeah, so things like you know having trouble initiating a task or Doing it incorrectly because you you just cannot remember the directions or you can't remember them sequentially Frustration or just looking like an attention because there's just your your working memory capacity is just totally maxed and You know as as adults when we get frustrated We we kind of just let go of everything anyway So as as little kids you can imagine, you know tears or putting their head down Absolutely, I mean today I had a bad night sleep last night actually so Trying to process a couple of tasks today. I was finding quite challenging and there Right said no wonder I'm finding hard having just written a book on memory and studied a bit of sleep that cognition and processing It's really important for us to recognize the signals, isn't it? Right, and I would say specifically, you know from my students what it looks like is When they are learning to read and they're having trouble segmenting sounds into a word by the time even if it's a Three sound word by the time they get to that last sound They've forgotten. What was that first sound that I made so they're blending falls apart the reading falls apart Math word problems are just such a challenge. It's just too much to maintain in working memory Now I want to come back to this but I'm gonna move on so the first question I normally pose is Tell us about yourself your career in teaching and you know who inspired you and then we'll come back to your doctoral research So, um, how did you become a teacher? How did you become a teacher first of all? Oh? Well, I was listening to one of your other podcasts the other day and I was I was it was so refreshing one of your guests Was just being completely honest and he was like I just became a teacher because I forget what he said But it was just it was refreshing to hear him be honest. So I will share that yes I went to undergrad for psychology and I ended up in marketing for a final finance company right and I just found it to be Lucrative, but it just I had no passion for it Nothing felt good about it and I thought well, I'll be a teacher that sounds really safe and it sounds cute You know and it's a lifelong career. So I'll do that So I went back to school. I got a master's in elementary education and you know, I just I had no idea how personally Gradifying challenging What a rewarding Experience it would be and how much I would end up really loving it So I'm thankful to say that I'm not just doing it because yeah, I mean 14 years as a good good stint so far. How many years did you last in marketing? That was about four Okay So yeah, you're on the inside. You know moved away from the dark side. You know in the right side of things Okay, that that's great. And another question. I'd like to ask is what describe your 16 year old self What would you like at school yourself? 16 I Was a really good student Really active in clubs and I was a cheerleader, but I will say that you know, it wasn't really cool to be Nerdy. Yeah, and so I Tried desperately to hide my inner nerd You know, it is my husband will say this is your midlife crisis because I'm just I don't care I want to be me and I'm not gonna apologize for it. I'm not gonna hide it. So it's 16 You know, I just wanted to be accepted. I didn't want to be labeled as strange So I would be you know in my bedroom reading about black holes or sonic boom or psychology textbook But you know in in social settings. I certainly didn't want to be seen that way So I'm very much going back and and embracing that inner nerd and and and So obviously that somewhere along the line, you know, the college conversation happened and then you know What what got you into marketing? Originally, well, I was a psychology major And you know, to be totally honest, I had it all together until college and college I just kind of felt like I'm just gonna graduate and get a job And so that was really the first thing that came up and I took it and it paid well And I was working in New York City and I thought, you know, this is great. I've got this great life But it just it didn't Yeah, well, that's them Well, um, you know, it's a very interesting story, but you know, the the you know geek is chic and that type of stuff You know the the field of cognitive science and psychology, you know, it's something I've been interested in since I was a very young man You know 18 years old or something, but I never You know specialized in it always really interested didn't you know Didn't necessarily have the rigor of writing, you know, you don't really as a young person how to write lit reviews and What all these very complicated brain terms mean, but you know, you've got you've got my book and you've seen what I've done recently That's my own journey. Um How how have you kind of navigated your you know, you did a psychology major, which is a big deal Um and obviously you've come full circle now. So, um, how I can see what you're doing your literature I'm trying to think what the question is here is how is psychology. Here's the question inform and you to become a better teacher Is what I'm interested in um, I would say psychology more so has been relative for me with colleagues and sort of building relationships understanding when people are perhaps defensive, they don't want to hear new ideas or Or um, you know curious, but perhaps threatens but more so You know, I would say years and years of being a classroom teacher. I You're you're doing all these things in your classroom and then you read an article and they're talking about it And how they've spent five years studying it. You're thinking this is going on in my classroom every day. Yeah, and it's going on in My colleagues and we didn't need anybody to spend a million dollars on research for it So I think also approaching academics With this topic, I've had to use a little bit of psychology and you know, I don't want to make anyone feel defensive I don't want to make anyone feel, you know, threatened so I've definitely been up against some adversity in terms of the academics are kind of like, you know You don't belong with us and the practitioners are kind of like, what do you do and why are you going over there? So I'm sort of on this island in between research and practice right now and I'm trying to be friends with both if you will Yeah, I know and I guess that's where the the ed doctor it comes in right It's that balance between the academic and the practitioner side, isn't it? Correct So I think that What led me to start my doctorate was just the frustration with the bureaucracy and education and Being in front of my students day after day and knowing what was best for them But you know in certain situations my hands are tied because I have to teach this or I have to do that or you know things are prioritized that seem to Misaligned with what our purpose is Which is teaching our students right and nurturing them and instilling a love of learning And you know, nobody wants to listen to a first grade teacher So I thought okay fine Then I will go and you know do what I have to do and get the credentials that I need and perhaps along the way someone will want to hear what I have to say but The cognitive science piece is really me saying I want to have the knowledge Now in addition to having the practical experience because I think I Think you need both and I think the dichotomy just is so strong and you're either here You're a practitioner or you're a researcher Yeah, and there's not much scope for in between is there and I think the the doctor it gives us You know this I'm still teaching kind of part-time full-time. I want to think like a researcher I know that when I tell a child off in class it does do something So I need to try and evidence it in a practitioner sense and that's the battle. I've had with my doctoral degree Also, so a quick question. Can I have you always worked in the same school or have you moved to different schools? I have been in the same school in the same classroom for all 14 years. I feel Yeah, I think if you can find that and you're happy and you can thrive And you're still top of your game and you're really making a difference a lot of teachers get quite shy about being in one place for so long But I I think it's something worth celebrating You know, I feel fortunate that I'm in a position where I'm happy with what I do I'm happy where I am and so I'm not in a rush to finish school and get out On the contrary, I'm just settling in and enjoying the journey because I can't imagine leaving the classroom in the next couple of years And You know, I I can take opportunities that come along if I want to but I don't have to take anything because I'm Perfectly fine staying in the right now. I'm I'm sure what gets in the way is your doctoral research and it's a headache and it's a work burden Also, and I know you've got your family Tell us a little bit more about your doctoral studies. So when did you start a bit about the program at the University of Delaware? And How much time you dedicate to it just it just gives a whole overview of your journey so far I would love to say that, you know, it's just all been easy, but it certainly has not I Started a year ago. I'm a year in so I'm halfway through and it's an eddy program So I'm halfway through my eddy classes And you know it for me, it's it's the the passion that has has sort of fueled my motivation to work But I would say, you know, also, there's a selfish piece that it's the personal growth too It's the you know, 16 year old nerd that is like gosh I wish I could I could go back and pursue those interests that I was too, you know embarrassed to pursue that now I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna do it now So it's been it's been challenging. I work full-time. Yeah, so I'm five days a week I'm at school until you know, 430 in the afternoon and then I have class on Zoom or I have class in person. I have, you know, papers and studies and all kinds of things I have two kids who are also In elementary school and primary school as well. So thankfully my husband has been very supportive He owes me because he was in school for about eight years prior to this So you're pulling in the cars now, that's good. Yeah, yeah, but it is, you know as a parent It it does feel sometimes, you know, it am I Being selfish and I should be using this time for my children, right? But I want them to see This example of, you know, good for you. I mean, do you know doctorates? Do you know doctorates hard work full-stop doing it with a young children, you know, full-time job You know, like you said in the classroom that that is really hard And so the question is and how do you fit? Where do you fit in the time? How regular, you know I find it a struggle and but what what what techniques are you using to kind of fit it in? Well, I am using a lot of the techniques that I've been learning about to tell you the truth So what I'm learning about memory what I'm learning about retrieval What's been really nice is as I learn about them. I can not only apply them with my students, but I'm applying them to myself so You know things like studying for a little bit and then walking away or going to bed and kind of letting it settle in While I'm sleeping But in terms of just actual logistics I'm doing it, you know after my kids go to bed Early in the morning on the weekends If I have to leave and go to the library If my husband's around I will or if I have to get a sitter So It's definitely it's challenging, but I try to do it I try to Not do it when I'm with my children, but I would be lying if I said that yeah But I like what you said all summer with them. Sure. I like what you said You know, you know the research and insights you're gathering you're applying to your own life because you know when we talk about Memory and retrieval it works for us all doesn't matter how old you are and how experienced you are And so it's really interesting that you you know you walk away You go to bed because you know that you're either you know that work in memory where information suffers and it's lost I guess that's where you can really benefit from those insights and apply them Absolutely, and I and I feel it and I've had some classes where The content is completely new to me I mean the real technical science classes and I'm walking in taking a doctoral level cognitive science class with no true academic history and Just feeling so over my head and I'm like this is how my students feel when they're you know Having a meltdown And you know this and the sensation that I have nothing to anchor this new learning to I don't know where to put it Yeah, nothing to relate it to So it definitely has given me compassion from my students, but it's also kind of helped me in terms of Seeing how once I have a little bit of foundation and I struggle through that initial learning Everything else kind of can grasp has something to grasp on to I remember When I first tackled social media network analysis using our stats and node and The first time I think took me four or five hours, but now I can do it in about ten minutes But it just shows you that practice. Could you um could you give us a kind of overview of some of the topics? You've been covering and what were those things that are really difficult in the beginning that you've had to categorize and use relevant information to Retrieve what kind of things you've been studying? So I have studied um policy so educational policy which for me is not as exciting because I tend to be more attracted to the sciences um I have done um, let's see um Educational technology I've done um technology and cognition. I've had leadership classes I've had um data collection and analysis, which was a qualitative Um data collection analysis course. So I had to interview administrators and then code The interviews I never ever want to have that as my career You know, I will say one thing these classes kind of they're it's process of elimination because Some things I'm like I now I know for sure. I never want to do Yeah, um So what's kind of happened through the classes and through the process? I I came in wanting to work on Really wanting to work on educational neuroscience And as uh, I progressed I've learned that that's way too Narrow, right? Um, and unless I want to quit and get a phd. I really don't have enough time To devote to studying that as it should be studied So I said, okay cognitive science kind of encompasses much more of of that field and and that knowledge and and I can tackle that um so What I'm working on now is the knowledge itself the research itself In terms of learning sciences and how it supports practitioners But in addition to the research itself, I've also been working on How to disseminate that information To classroom teachers because they do not want to sit down and read a research article. No, um, and I completely understand why um, they do not want a professional development session from A cognitive scientist, right because we don't speak the same language so in addition to trying to Take the research from learning sciences and translate it into something that's usable understandable And not to undermine Educators intelligence at all. Um, it's just you know, the terminology if you're not familiar with it It can it can be really hard to understand in the statistics um, so translating that research for practitioners, but also looking at Why is there such a divide? Why is there such a divide between the researchers and the people in the classrooms? Yeah, it's frustrating. Isn't it all the time I asked the same question, you know this You know the phd is that kind of complex theory and language and you know, very complicated terminology that's You know taken the world a bit further but for You know what it's particularly where educational research wants to make a big difference for the classroom You know teachers like you you don't have a lot of time. You've got 30 kids around you all day every day Uh, you don't have time to read a 30 page paper and learn new terminology Which makes no difference to your professional practice and it does the opposite which the research hopes I've got a couple of kind of thoughts to suppose sarah and one in It would I be wrong to assume that the first kind of year or two of your doctoral studies is kind of an overview of anything And everything to learn to help you understand where you want to sit with your research Yes, so the way my edd program works there are core classes that everyone has to take and they they're the program is an educational leadership course Um, I don't have much interest in leadership in the traditional sense. I'm not trying to be a school administrator or a district administrator um But you know, I have to take courses that that involve those skills and that knowledge My concentration cognitive sciences where my electives come in So when I was talking to you about being in a class where I knew nothing and I thought oh, I know about the learning sciences, you know, but I I really was not prepared for a doctoral level academic course in cognitive science where you're learning about the the visual streams and and and just You know domain general versus domain specific and modularity. I thought oh my gosh. Yeah, it's heavy stuff So so I'm taking the required course Um adding in these courses so that I can be well versed in the sciences The problem that I'm running into is that these cognitive sciences are not designed for Educators they're designed for cognitive scientists. Yes. So as I am I'm participating in discussions with classmates reading research articles Here I come and I'm like so what? Okay, here's these findings that seem so You know Just granular and and I'm like, uh, you know, and I would say well, what's the implication for this? What do we do with this and you know, they were just get so frustrated with me like No, but that's a good question to ask because my supervisor, you know I'd go away and come up with something fancy and things and then because of that relationship You can then he then used to pose this simple question So what and then I'd have to justify it all and come up with another Kind of additional theory or justification and then he'd say Now what are you going to do and it's uh, it's it's good that you're already asking those questions one year into your Your studies the other question I had from what your original Discussion about your doctoral program was You said that cognitive education on neuroscience was quite narrow Uh, forgive me. I think that's really broad, but maybe I'm entirely wrong Um, could you just explain why the field of educational neuroscience is very narrow? Um, I guess for so from my perspective, it's just one piece of the puzzle And it's so specific that I don't think um Going through an eddy program and supplementing with certain courses Would give me the depth of knowledge that I would need to consider myself You know an expert in educational neuroscience um, so You know as fascinating as that is for me what I've learned is there's just so many other Aspects of the sciences that go into learning But it's not just the neurons the dendrites the connections the synapses. It's it's a lot more than that too. So um While I would love to drop everything and just study that right? Yes. Um, I'm trying to take a more global perspective here So I'm starting to understand that that a bit more because you know non-cycle I'm not I still consider myself not a specialist in psychology or neuroscience at all. Um And taking that step back to cognitive science, which is a bit more broader and it covers lots of different aspects to allow you to specialize Would then allow you a suspect as an expert to then tackle your eventual research I hope that's correct. Um Going back to your original paper then sarah. At least is this the first paper that you've been practicing with? The one I'm working now So the literature review was actually for a class it was for my cognitive science class Okay, um, but I've done papers on studying locally the divide between research and practice um, I've done projects on student agency um and learner variability So I've kind of had my hands on a lot of different things and it's just because I Find something that interests me or someone's work that I appreciate and I just reach out to them and say how can I get involved and how can I You know learn and help your your cause um, so And can I ask how that I How's your academic writing moving forward, you know that that ability to reference to Uh, make the the right arguments and things like that. How is that journey because I'm still I still fall into the trap of being a blogger And a very uh untidy writer to someone, you know, put it into a book Which I think for me now is quite easy, but that academic stuff's all new to me. How are you getting on with that process? Um, yeah, it's uncomfortable, right? And yeah, and you want to say something because you you're like, how do I know this because I've done it for over a decade That's how I know it, but no We have to find You know someone who's probably never done it before but has certainly researched it and published an article to sort of back up um Pretty much everything that you're attesting to and you're writing so And I always feel like reading academic writing the citations make it feel choppy Um, you know the figures and tables it's not it's not um Carefree reading for sure and it's certainly not carefree writing. No, um, but You know, I just kind of had to jump in head first and I'm for sure not there yet Um, I'm getting better, but I I have a ways to go in terms of being proficient sure And and you know trying to narrow down that field of inquiry to a research question And you know, I remember my original proposal was so broad and taken on the world that I would never ever I've got close to completing anything of substance um, so on working memory in grade one students and you mentioned working memory breakdown Is that where you think you're going to go deeper into research in the future for? publication Actually, um, so I I don't know how your experience has been but for me being in this program I just have learned that I don't know what to expect and so I'm kind of open to wherever this journey takes me but as of recently, um, I partnered with or I was doing some consulting for I shouldn't say I partnered with but digital promise Which is a nonprofit organization Okay, um, and they really they take um ed technology practitioners and research and they try to combine it all it's free resources For practitioners So I've been working with them on a series of instructional lessons about learner variability which um relates a lot to equity, but it also relates a lot to the learning sciences because the four pillars of learner variability are cognition background social and emotional learning and content knowledge so Really what it is is teaching your kids how they learn or your students. I should say how they learn Um, which even for my young students, they are fascinated by understanding and becoming aware of um things like Their attention things like yeah now I'm gonna pick you up on those four points. I think listeners would find that quite interesting So, uh, if I got those correctly the cognition the background the social emotional aspects of learning And content could you tell me more of those four four stages or four things? So those are considered four factors that affect us as learners um, and digital promises message is to look at the whole child As far as you know a learner as someone who we all come from different homes different situations Um, we have had different experiences. That all affects our learning Um content knowledge what we already know what we've brought with us That affects our learning our cognition. So things like memory things like processing um decision-making understanding and social emotional in terms of peer relationships stereotype threats, um Any any sort of Health sleep. Yeah sleep anything that yeah anything that can affect your your your state of mind and and So these four factors are Really to teach Educators about hey, here's all the things that go into your students. Here's what you need to know I then worked with them on how do we teach our students about this? To help them be more self aware But also to help them embrace their peers as differences are unique differences are Important and they're to be celebrated So that has really taken me on a I started that in probably February And I just presented on that At a state conference recently and there's been so much interest in In yeah, so you put a post on your LinkedIn profile with a a post If that was similar, but that was quite eye catching and I guess the other critical part is yes teach your students a bit more about these things but What what could I do as a teacher if I knew a bit more about this and you mentioned earlier, you know How to disseminate it? I don't want all the complicated language and You know five period day and then I've got to go to cpd session on cognitive science How could the questions are? Um, how would it make me a better teacher and how could we turn this information into a useful teacher training session? Um, so in my opinion and I don't have any citations to give you on this. It's just my opinion opinion is good for now If thank you, I always think if we're tasked with instilling a level of learning with teaching our students content, um, and how That'd be cool thinkers. Should we understand at some basic level how that happens and What can cause that process to break down? I mean, I think it's like a mechanic who who knows how to do these isolated tasks But doesn't understand how the car works, right? It's like how is why do we not know these things? And I think there's a really fine line between what teachers want to know and What at what point will they say nope? That's too much and completely disengaged. Yes So I think we have to find We have to find a way to share what's absolutely relevant without going overboard with the language or the science Because you know, I I've been I've been there myself for years and years. We sit there and it's like, okay Is this how is this going to help me in my classroom? You know, like don't waste my time Yeah So what I've been trying to do with all of my individual assignments projects in my classrooms is say How could I take this topic and break it down to bare bones most important concepts? Forget the fancy academic language Yes, what would I want as a classroom educator? What would be the easiest for me to understand? What would make me want to look at it? What would make me want to keep it? And that's what I try to keep in mind With whatever I'm working with is You know, the average first grade teacher is not Learning cognitive science educational and neuroscience psychology and I don't blame them. I just happen to be super fascinated by it Um, but I think that there's really important things to be shared so finding that that Sort of space where it's just enough that go listen and they'll learn Now, uh, as you were talking about you mentioned the word to break it down. Um, What recommendations so if you did break all this, you know, your latest paper and you broke it down and it was a 20 30 minute session for teachers Uh, any recommendations, you know, because this is this is part of my day to day work Is looking at all this type of stuff and trying to turn it into useful teacher training sessions and I've not I'm not masked it yet, but I think I'm getting close Uh, and you've got a copy of my latest book. I haven't worked out what those slides look like or what the training looks like for that yet And I need to get my finger out soon because I'm going to be delivering that in a couple of months to a couple of schools But um, any recommendations Sarah what what what would you say would be a great? Uh training session for a group of teachers Uh, if we go back to you know, those four factors the cognition the seal the content type of stuff What would you recommend as a useful method for a teacher training session? Um, and I did think that the book was excellent in terms of relevance And practicality applicability to the classroom. Um You know, I think that just keeping the content um Related to classroom practices not getting too abstract or conceptual And saying here's what this might look like. Here's what you might see in a student or it might not see in a student um Because if I have to start making those connections myself, uh, Maybe I will maybe I won't right or I'll go on and teach my students and forget all about it. Um, and also Okay, tell me also what I can do So tell me what I'm looking for And tell me what I can do and don't make it be you know Go get a doctor it right like give me some tangible takeaways that I can go In my classroom right now and say You know what you're visually distracted. Let me give you this or let me give you a quiet space or You know, let me give you a voice recorder so that you don't when you're developing your writing you haven't you don't forget your thoughts um, so You know, I want to see something that is not text heavy um and That has classroom examples and I think Coming I think the delivery matters, you know, there's there's too many people who haven't done it and don't understand it and don't appreciate it enough giving these messages and it's like You know, you're so far removed from practice Yes, that you know, you could tell me all day long what I should be doing But like when's the last time you did it, right? So that just don't understand the nuances So I think being up front with saying I know that you have so much to do And I really want to make this a valuable use of your time. Here's how this is going to help you Here's how this can improve your practice And not make it complicated. Yeah, no, there's some great messages there And you know for me now, you know doing teachers I'm five years in and I get very nervous about you know, when last I was in a room full of kids and marking books By the 25 years I've got my stripes. I do think training teachers is a different Well, there are some similarities obviously adults have a lot more Going back to your four factors cognition background, etc. They can balance their sleep and Their content, etc. But that the messages that I got from you there was that Rather than abstract concepts make it concrete. Here's an example Um, I love the phrase tangible takeaways. I think, you know, the average reading time my website 70 seconds That tells you all you need to know about teachers reading my website about how much time they have what they're looking for What's going to make a difference? And I think the the biggest one right Sarah is um, can I use it in my classroom tomorrow? um, so I could talk all day about this, but I've got to be conscious because there's probably people listen to our Podcasts and we're I need to bring it back to kind of a structure now Normally my podcasts are about 30 minutes or so We've gone well over the time and I normally wrap things up with a kind of little quick fire question I've written tons of notes. I've got so much information here and actually I've got lots of ideas I want to get in touch with you about about some potential Not giving you more work, but just some loads of kind of some ideas Um, right. Let me go to my script because this is what I'd like to just ask a suppose is You know, you mentioned, um You've you've got your kind of psychology Interest you've you've gone back to where your passion is the most and you're you're blending your teaching Uh alongside your doctoral studies and the challenges associated with that I guess Some of the questions I want to pose now are kind of quick fire questions So just try and see if I can catch you out and without you pausing and hesitating This would be a great example of working memory here. Um, so I'll start easy. Um, what what are you working on? What project are you working on today? Oh statistics Right good answer. Okay I actually you know what real quick. I am Reviewing an article on working memory as a predictor of academic success But I'm looking at the statistics of it. Right really really interesting. Um, what book are you reading? For fun not for for for geek and seek So Not specifically education related, but I think life Related um a book by carol tarvis called mistakes were made but not by me all right interesting, um Cognitive it's about cognitive dissonance and and um self-justification. Oh, yeah I mean, I've been there all my twitter work and they're arguing with lots of trolls I I came across cognitive dissonance a few years ago. It's an interesting topic Okay, great finish this sentence if I was an education secretary of state I would Ask more practitioners for uh input Great good tip. Um What would be your piece of advice for a teacher? Wanting to get into the field of research and start a doctoral kind of program. What would be your top tip? Um, don't get discouraged Don't get discouraged. Okay. Good tip that that kind of cognitive dissonance on your shoulder. Um, Okay, my next question is um Now we you've got a background in marketing as you've discussed you've got into teaching which uh, you think you've found your your thing But um, dare I say if you had an off the wall wacky career that you've never tried or dare I say it's cognitive science or something What what's that dream job you've not yet had? Um, probably being an astronomer Okay. Wow. Um, what is your biggest career achievement? I think it's yet to come. Um, I'd like to think so. Right. That's a nice answer. Okay. We've not had that one before Um, okay. We'll move on. I'll take that one. I like that one And if we were I haven't been to new york for a long time Gosh a long time 15 years or so if we went to new york, what would we do? Where would we go? And we had 24 hours, so what you know fit it into 24 hours. What would we do? To new york, um, we would probably see a show Uh, for sure. Just walk around in sightseeing. There's so many great museums Uh, just explore the culture Okay, nice. Uh, and Top tip for teaching grade one You got to find the good in all of them Okay, nice. Um, what's your advice to Researchers out there in terms of disseminating research for teachers. What what would be your top? recommendation I would say come and ask us what we need and come and ask us what works for us Okay, random question here coke or Pepsi Coke Okay, um, where can listeners find out more about you? And your work, um I'm on linkedin And um, I recently joined twitter out of peer pressure, but I have to be honest. I have not I have not embraced it yet. Um, or you can email me. It's soverly at udell.edu Okay, great Well, I might tag you on twitter and then cause a bit of a twitter fuel for loads of people I'll say follow sarah and then we'll see what happens to your twitter skills. Um, my next question Um, who would you recommend I interview next and why? Oh, I've got a good one for you. Um, Jared Cooney whore bath. Have you heard that? Yes, I know Jared. I've not I've read his books. I've not had a chance to catch up with him on the podcast, but um, so tell me why Um, so I've been in touch with him, uh, a couple of times throughout my doctoral journey And most recently when I was in my cognitive science class and I had all the phd students saying why do you keep asking? You know what the point is to this And I emailed him and I said, oh man, I'm making people, you know, I'm irritating people with my questions and he said, yes You know, you're this is all part of it. Um, because you know, I respect him because he's a former classroom teacher Who went back to school basically out of aggravation Um, so he respects classroom practice, but he also is an educational neuroscientist So he knows what he's talking about and I love the fact that he makes videos for Practitioners so he's taking the the science and he's translating it and saying hey, here's what this means for you He beat me too. I told him I said, oh, I'd like to do that But you were right great. Well, I'll get in touch with Jared and see if he can Spend a bit of time, but I loved his books. I'll especially the stop talking start influencing. That was a great one. Um Uh, I did have another question. Let me just check my, uh, list of stuff. I've got, uh An easy one than a big one. What was your favorite memory from school? Um If I could pick on that maybe a favorite teacher be more specific I I had I had a sort of a Unusual childhood and I had a lot of teachers particularly when I was young that really knew that and took me under their wing and encouraged me and um advocated for me so I I don't know that I could pick one, but right. Okay. We won't well say thank you to the board right I've got a self-indulgent question. So please forgive me, but what's your takeaway from guide to memory so far? Oh, um That there is a way to communicate complicated technical science concepts that that can be Meaningful for right great. I take that as a big accolade. Thank you And I love the qr codes. All right, great. I'm pleased with that and the qr codes are back in fashion. You know Um What um last question sarah and what do you hope to be your legacy? um I would like to be someone who breaks down some of those walls that are that are up right now I think you know people talk about bridging the gap whether it's bridging the gap or breaking down walls I would like to be someone who's a bit of a Hybrid professional who can appeal to practitioners because I have the experience and I know the needs But it's also well versed in the research and can be respected by the researchers as well So there you go. No sarah. I'm no offense to your marketing background But I've had a great time on picking your cognitive science journey and your classroom practice I don't think I'd get excited about the marketing stuff Part of my blogger's life is I have to get into a bit of marketing here or there But yeah, it doesn't it doesn't float my boat as much as this conversation. So thank you so much for your time Oh, well my pleasure and anytime you want to chat about um, yeah, well, I'm definitely going to come back to you Science and education Well, I'm definitely going to come back to you I wonder if we can maybe do a little event for listeners and maybe share some Tips for a doctoral research but also this these four factors on the whole child and you know When you quiz a kid or an inspector does and then writes about it. It's only one Called kind of small footprint on actually what's happening in the classroom that observers don't often see But I'm going to wrap things up sarah. Thank you so much sarah oberle doctoral student university Delaware grade one teacher working really hard on the front line five days a week And getting through her research and look forward to seeing you publish more papers And it'll be interesting to share the doctoral headaches and the joys As we connect over the the months to come, but thank you sarah so much for your time Absolutely, you're very welcome