 With me in the studio is Thomas Lamar senior payment system specialist at the world bank He's also the co-chair of the interoperability Working group and interoperability is what the ITU is all about and First of all, is this a big issue in the area of digital financial services? It definitely is so thank you very much for having me And I'm in fact co-chairing this working group together with two colleagues One is Ricardo Moreau from the center Bank of Brazil and the other one is Mark McCullough who is an independent consultant and we are kind of Pleased to take on this effort, which is still a very huge one in digital financial services and we did This on purpose we narrowed down the focus of course digital financial services can be broadly defined But we are specifically focusing on payments So and for that we came forward with a vision on interoperability On payment services because payments are very often the first and most often used financial instrument which so far excluded or Non-serviced customers are taking on board and to what extent is the lack of interoperability a barrier to entry? So the lack of interoperability of course is a challenge because in our Vision which we have developed and we see interoperability as a possibility for every user globally to transact seamlessly in a secure affordable way And also conveniently with any other user so without without having the necessity to open up several transaction accounts But simply to do it by one transaction accounts and if we talk about transaction accounts It's important for us to Mention that it's not only accounts which are held with a bank So deposit transaction accounts, but these can also be accounts held with a non bank or an e-money provider to that extent So we are and to that extent Neutral and we define transaction accounts as something which can be offered by banks and non banks Give me an idea of the ecosystem of different standards. Are there is it like a jungle? Is it quite complicated or we decided not only to focus on standards But to look at different layers of interoperability. So this was in fact one of the first things we did in our working group we kind of took stock of the developments which are out there industry initiatives as well as literature which is out here and Analyze the topic of interoperability according to different layers Technological layer together with standards of course being one of them But there are also other very important layers like the legal and regulatory framework Policy framework as such is there is a board for interoperability Among the different players But also and this comes on top of it the question Whether or not there is a business case for it So the business layer or commercial layer is sometimes even harder to achieve than the pure technical standards So to that extent this was one of the major things we did during the first year Just to make sure that we get the scene right that we have the entire picture in place And you had you have already some Some assumptions that you're working on that you're working to prove or you really Open to all ideas at this moment our focus has narrowed down over the time And we also very much benefited of existing initiatives which are out here So we have seen of course industry developments in several countries where interoperability Has been in focus, but we also were informed and we're in close coordination with other work streams Buffy being one of them. So Buffy stands for payment aspects of financial inclusion Which is a task force which was co-chaired by the standard set of payment systems to CPMI and development group And today issued a report Consultative report at the beginning of September and which was very much aligned with our way of thinking When it comes to the term of interprobability and where we can achieve and add to financial inclusion by means of interprobability So just to complete on that point I think we we definitely have now a clearer picture than we had one year ago Depending on the developments which have been out here since then and also of course our work the work we have done so far Now within this this area digital financial services, would you say that interoperability is is the number one issue to overcome or One of the top issues. It's definitely one of the top issues I think this is also one of the reasons why within this focus group as dedicated Working group on interprobability was established and this within this working group as mentioned We are focusing mainly on payment services. So for us payment services is really a gateway for broader financial inclusion And it's also a topic where we can start off with so Having a transaction account enabling people to transact with each other in a convenient way in a seamless way Also at low cost really gets them started and opens up a broader Perspective for them opens up possibilities for savings Possibilities for credits and other financial instruments. So to that extent We very much focus on the payment aspect of financial inclusion and we also see That interprobability, especially among new entrants into the market is still very much of a challenge. So we Have seen in the years from 2011 to 2014 the number of people who have gained access to transaction account Increased by 700 million worldwide But still we have a tremendous challenge out there with two billion people worldwide which currently do not have access to transaction accounts So in order to achieve universal financial access by 2020 one of the dedicated targets also of the workman group We think that interprobability is one of the cornerstones Which will contribute to this to this to happen Well, thomas as we speak it's been around a year Since you started working with the group in the short term. What are you expecting to achieve? So by the end of next year, um, so we think our main deliver will be one toolkit Which really will provide authorities as well as private sector players with a possibility to Bring together all those elements which are of relevance for interprobability So to come up with templates to come up with guidance notes guidance papers and also respective Industry practices when it comes to the establishment of interprobability So we think that's that will be of help not only For establishing interprobability within a country but also within a region and as we go forward On a global level So to that extent, I think this will serve and we hope it will serve They do solve the interprobability challenge Which we currently face and increase the access to transaction account for those who are currently not served So in this area 2020 as you said, uh, this is a Key point for making progress. What will that progress be? How many people will have access to banking services? So our objective is to have universal financial access Of course, uh, this is a tremendous challenge because there are still as mentioned two billion people Which currently do not have access to the transaction accounts And this is only the starting point because having access doesn't yet mean that you're really using these financial services, however with the help of Private sector partners with the help of initiatives like the itu focus group on digital financial services We at the word bank side are very confident that this objective can be achieved Thomas slammer. Thank you very much for being with us in Geneva and good luck to you and your co-chairs. Thank you very much