 So what the TATS is writing with the German newspaper is true, this must be really bad. One of the journalists told me that when we were talking about the case, Hannibal, a couple of weeks ago, what we mean by that is the research that a number of journalists have undertaken amongst them a research team from the TATS who worked on this for two years and who unveiled something that was almost impossible to believe. What is this about? This is amongst one of the things is the special forces officer who stole 60,000 pieces of ammunition and hid it in his garden to be ready for day X. There were soldiers who kept lists of hits where journalists and politicians were listed as enemies to be killed. It is about a club that offered paramilitary to a secret chat group of people, which is illegal in Germany, by the way. This sounds like a really bad thriller from the station bookshop, but this is reality. This is Germany in 2019. The next two speakers are part of the team from the TATS who uncovered all of this and researched this intensively and extensively for two years, and rightfully so got many prices for this. Please welcome Sebastian Erb and Daniel Schultz, who will tell you about the Hannibal affair. Hi. Welcome. We are so excited to be in this big room, I mean hall, stadium. Asked that's Daniel Schultz to my right, and Sebastian Erb, our talk is called the Hannibal affair. We're talking about a network of soldiers and police members and officers, members of the federal offices that are part of the right wing. And with this network, we've spent the past two years and uncovered a lot. And by now we have a hashtag, hashtag Hannibal has kind of become the chifre or like symbol of what's going wrong in the so-called security services. What do you mean, right wing network in the army? Was there something? Let's ask this person. Especially now, until now, we have not found right wing networks amongst the German army is not part of the German army. This is Christoph Grahm. He is the president of the military counterintelligence service, which is the secret service of the army. And he set this in a hearing in November 2018, on the 16th of November in 2018. This was the annual hearing of the heads of the intelligence services in the parliament and the advisory body, supervisory body, which takes place once a year. And this time it was public, usually it takes place in secret. This timing is quite interesting and peculiar because it takes place directly between two publications, between a time where focus and tuts both to new publications published articles about this network and the focus and the tuts. And you might be surprising, we're not really a research group together. We independently researched the subject matter and we are asking today what has happened since then, what has changed, what would and what will Mr. Grahm say about this subject today. This network that we're talking about today that is referred to as Hannibal's Shadow Network, it's a secret network of men on the one hand in check groups, but also outside of the internet. And those are men that want to defend the state, claim to defend the state, mistrust the state and actually endanger the state. At the center of this network we find a man, he's called Andres and in his early 30s he is part of the German army as a master sergeant. He's not just one soldier, he's an elite soldier, part of the special forces. They do the toughest deployments when it comes to hostage questioning or hunting terrorists in Afghanistan, the German abbreviated to KSK is acting in secret, only the parliament will be formed after a deployment has happened. But they also do advertise on YouTube and Alexa. So he calls himself, refers to himself as Hannibal, this has nothing to do with elephants. This goes back to Hannibal from the A team, the TV show. What's on this? I love it when a plan works. And then now we hear the soundtrack from the A team. Hannibal is connected in all sorts of chats with other kind of kind of kind of kind of kindred spirits and they talk about safe houses, hoarding food or finding flight plans for a moment of catastrophe. This catastrophe is the so-called day ex, it can be a lot of things like natural catastrophe like a Russian invasion or racist ideas such as a migrant invasion into Germany. To be ready for this day, some of these radicalized members, they believe it's okay to be hoarding weapons and kill political opponents and keep lists of enemies. Hannibal founded a club which is called Uniture.ev which is short for a club, it's an NGO as they like to call themselves. It's a professional network of active and former members of the special forces, partially of the army, the police force. And this is their official image, but behind the curtain there's quite a different story to be told. A lot of people who've left the club are calling it a cult actually. This club trained civilians in military tactics and they've worked on building an armed part of this club, so an armed forces of the club itself. And the club itself is not afraid to have relations with questionable officials such as the president of the Philippines, Duterte, who is known for being an autocrat who kills so poset drug criminals without having a trial. The club uniter itself is not a right wing terrorist group, but right wing terrorists do feel quite cozy there. This is maybe how you could lawfully correctly state this, Franco Ah was also part of a member. He's a former army member that pretended to be a Syrian refugee and planned attacks and he's going to be set on trial soon. Part of the Hannibal network, there was also the two people from the so-called North Cross group and two of these are being suspected by the Eternal General currently to be planning right wing terrorist actions. The founder, Marco G, of this North Cross network is currently on trial in Schwerin and he has been prosecuted for illegally owning guns and ammunition. We're using the male form here on purpose. This is not a generic masculine. As far as we know, there's barely any women. If there are any women, it's the wives. They don't actually have any active part. This is an elitist bound of circle of men. Here we can see a simplified illustration of this network of how we researched this. You can see that at the center there's Hannibal that founded a few different things, so these kind of prepper chats that were organized by the different directions, northeast, southwest. So the people from North Cross, North Cross and then also that we can find groups in Austria and Switzerland. He founded the club, the UNITER, where a bunch of members are of interest. We left a lot of things out, like who of these are Freemasons and some of them are also police and are part of the order of Lazarus and important is that the network is not a strict organizational hierarchical structure. It's not one leader at the top. It's just a network which some close relations, some loose relations, some of them are already canceled and are changed. Someone who's maybe on the left side of this network left down doesn't know what the person on the top right might be doing and that's also intentional. Some people don't know their real names. So just know them by their nicknames. We will talk a little bit about how we came to research this topic and how we did it and at the end we will also answer questions. So how did we start researching this? How did we find Hannibal or how did Hannibal find us? In the beginning there was a news report like this or probably actually this one so it was a search for terrorists in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and one of our reporters that goes there, we hadn't heard about Hannibal at this point, but something which stood out was that the Attorney General didn't take in the police forces from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, they were taken away from this investigation because they were also called to court and also people who were involved in the military and for this reason they weren't involved in this investigation. And for us it was very much clear that they were all involved in a network, it was maybe 30 or 40 people and as journalists we wanted to learn from the NSU which was a right terrorist organization in Germany and we wanted to do a better job this time and it was not only us but also other journalists and from this atmosphere this was a strategic decision and there was one person doing an interview in Panorama so our group is only it's called the prepper scene. Does it say anything to you? Preppers, that's just people who want to be prepared for a crisis, for a national catastrophe, if there is a limitation of resources and we just want to be prepared, we just wanted to stock food and be ready to have our own energy, our own water and have our own energy resources. So this is Mako G, you should also maybe take note of this name, we will come back to him later, he's a key figure in this Hannibal complex. He was the administrator of the Nordkreuz chat group, the one from the north. Mako G is a police officer, he was at the LKA, he was in the special forces and was also in the armed forces and there is a people who are serving bombs at the enemy lines so he's very well trained and after this interview everyone was relieved. Oh it's just preppers, they are very harmless and other people were like well they seem a bit crazy but probably not very dangerous and we learned about the scene at a road close to Schwerin where four people were meeting up and they were chatting about yeah maybe we can get some trucks from the armed forces to get rid of left people on Day X and they were yeah prepping for Day X and when they are talking about the armed forces that's not super far away for them because they are reservoirs, they're veterans from the armed forces so that's very useful if there is Day X and if you have a truck from the armed forces that might be super useful if there is the Day X coming and that sounds kind of funny maybe at first when the veterans are chatting about good old times at the army but a lot of them are actually called back in if there is a natural catastrophe or also for G20 when it happened at Hamburg they were called in so like these reservoirs company was called in for the G20 and one of and the commander of this unit is a part of this prepper group from Nordkos so we noticed this and so he was called away from this deployment and we have questioned are these people part of the extreme right these are not classical extreme right people what we found is middle-aged men who were influenced by migration in 2015 to Germany and they got radicalized and sometimes in a very short time and these men were thinking they had the one exclusive tooth about the situation in Germany and this exclusive tooth was spread by Hannibal who was spreading these news through these chat groups who pretended to have this information as a part of the special unit and they weren't public so they thought yes that must be it and this is made possible by these networks of contact so this person might have this file which they have and it's very exclusive or in whatever way it's public but there is actually no file from official agencies here so we actually needed to form this file ourselves so we needed to do our own research so the prepper chats which we had been talking about they were already closed down when we started our research because Franco was already like in the public at that point and we some of these chats chat groups we were able to read through because they were brought to court for example so what did we do a lot of our research was online so we looked through over 200 lights from a picture of a wedding or through pictures of a bodyguard workshop always looking for people who might be important or which we recognized and sometimes we just guessed their profile names or just tried it out or we had a picture and tried to link it back to other profiles or sometimes we found usernames or profiles we recognized from the chat which we had and so we found out about many connections and also found out lots of connections which were unknown previously Instagram is also very popular but with these people and they can post with weapons or with patches or cigars so if we researched this then a lot of things and connections disappeared and they deleted posts they deleted likes they deleted profiles and cleaned out their connections they are very active on facebook they invite each other to events or tell you post about how cool this training was or how cool this patch looks or they share our research mostly not very favorably and also they are very active on LinkedIn and I wasn't really aware that it's an actual social network where you can post and share stuff so this is the profile of Hannibal he's calling himself this name here and he's using this free mason's symbol right next to his name and he is offering global crisis management and 77 people endorse his military competence and he has a very well funded project here and the unit terror association we have already mentioned before what do we see there we have this organi cramp here so it's not an agency but this is just this association with a couple of hundred people and they have district leaders and a medical response unit so it's a very complex structure and they also have just dancing lessons or fan merch or a world map unit error pretends to be in 64 countries and active there and they also have a website and they are pretending that there are no radical opinions in this association um so if you look at this maybe they are just thinking big and maybe they are a bit crazy but they surely are harmless and at least that's a picture unit terror wants to pretend themselves to be and mostly that actually works out for them so the secret services aren't really looking at because they are just looking at these websites and think yes they must be harmless so all their public statements are harmless and it's not registered as an extremist group however we found other things online as well and this for example is a post from a friend in philippines and he took pictures at a unity meeting and where they are posing actively and with members of duterte and you could find this on facebook publicly available you can also find things online that potentially are of interest but are not really relevant that much one example just to give this is the first time we're presenting this is hyper inclusive this is honeybuild's dog and this is the dog he's called e dot not really important but you can find him if you just look hard and long enough and so all this research online is quite time-consuming but they were not the most decisive thing the most important thing was to go outside the most deciding things are not happening online or being deleted afterwards and a lot of stuff you can only evaluate after you've talked to people so what kind of online relation does actually matter in the real world outside so that's when we started knocking on a lot of doors we were around we traveled extensively in all sorts of regions we met up with people at very weird strange places such as mcdonald's or in a one-unit house in mechland book 4.1 it was always called it was usually in winter yeah it's all our symbolic pictures um we would not have gone this far like to the right this we're not we didn't go to that location um we had a bunch of um folders at the end and and we got internal documents and could look into investigative files um and then after we started publishing people were getting actually reaching out to us so we started getting sources from the network that left the network and that was quite interesting and important for us because it was interesting on a content level but it was also people who had the tendency to um would be quite further right from us and however they reached out but they watched this and witnessed that and then found that quite problematic and then reached out to us so it was so much further left to them and so yeah so even people who might regard all of this a bit more relaxed they found problematic and reached out um and people informed us that they were scared and they weren't really sure if they would be in danger and putting themselves in danger if they started talking to us those are potentially those are people that used to be in Afghanistan and so had completely different high stress situations so that was quite concerning for us and uh we were quite and we started hearing about information of bounty being put out to people who was talking to the to the journalists and that was obviously like for us much more important to start using secure channels of communication so thank you very much to basically everybody who um acted as an informant who was a source we would not have been able to do this work without you yes so in the beginning when we started covering this um why was there no coverage about Hannibal um why was there um but then from the beginning on however there was research done by big media houses like focus are we already mentioned but also the um the one big important network of uh research journalists in Germany but then i mean mainly it wasn't really the established uh news media um that were supporting us and uh so there's like uh this reference to about media that's kind of like a meta analysis um and they were kind of asking so where are the reactions where are the other responses also the the radio that is in Leipzig they they covered us and they invited us for a podcast uh with Christina Schmidt who is leading the team there and talked to us and mainly talked to us about why the the coverage about how far right does the the german army actually stand is something that doesn't really happen there was obviously like the the internet public um there's a couple of important twitter accounts that start like the conquista internet who started having wanted to have a conversation if there isn't anything that's bigger or in a grander scheme um really quickly this research also reached the german parliaments uh the the state level but also the the regional and county levels um we got a lot of requests um we have above 12 by now in the german parliament um thing with those is that they usually don't generate that much they just kind of lead to there's no results found we couldn't find conclusive um hints so we couldn't really so you kind of realize in these kind of moments that it's so difficult and i mean this was also hard for us when you have peter tauber who's the state secretary of the office federal office of defense she when he claims that his grandmother kept canned food in her basement is she also prepper like and then you have the the head of the secret service the bnd in germany who claims that they couldn't find um right wing terrorists amongst uh the army um and he officially stated that and the the parliamentary um supervisory commission uh looked into the file again but um and they they um made us they asked for a special report that's yet to be completed about this network and supposedly is going to get us more insights so what the mad so the federal office um of the military counterintelligence in germany is abbreviated to mad um what he could confirm is that hanibal's relation exists like this kind of connection this is a source um hanibal was already talking about the chats in uniter um and his connections into the secret service was dita v you can see him without his head here obviously like this is a lawful picture he's an informant so his privacy has to be protected um earlier this year he was on trial in cologne because he was under suspicion to warn hanibal um when about general attorney actions uh and searches um of checking special forces police officers houses to discover the network of police and army of the special forces they couldn't find much in hanibal's place because um that's partially due because a laptop and a couple other uh resources uh disappeared and there's the suspicion that dita v was involved in warning him and tipping him off and but this couldn't be proven in court so he was uh he was not convicted of this um so we have this network and the secret service um but my colleague christina schmid and i in february on a very cold winter evening we rang a doorbell in stuttgart in a we wanted to talk to ringo and we found his name in the membership book um he was one of the founding members in 2016 and he was the the the head of the founding committee and so this was a normal person to talk to if you want to know man some of you might know him he was you formally called ringo el he was a police officer and a colleague and the supervisor of michelle quisevetta who was the last victim of the nsu so we are at this house this is like a multiple story building and uh we are ringing at the bell oh we see someone's there because the light uh is there but we ring and the light is switched off and the door on the inside is shut so obviously people don't want to talk to us so what we do is usually with even note christina and christina schmid started writing and she wasn't finished yet um there was like a small um when we could hear the doors being shut on the ground level and we could see a Porsche cayenne leaving and there's four men going to the building and we're like we couldn't do much so we left and like went downstairs and asked who those were who was there and ringo m introduced himself and the other one introduced himself as his lawyer but he wasn't a lawyer um ringo m however did want to talk he was there in his uh slippers and socks um it was cold february evening so then we like chatted it was it was now or never this chance would never come up again so then we asked him how what happened with this with association and we noticed that he really shortly after left the club again and he's like yeah that was that was because of my employer and we're like oh who was the employer was it in federal office was it a private company he didn't really want to respond to that um so we had our own suspicions about this who these employer could be um but you um are working for the office of the protection of the constitution and he said no which is a lie um and we could prove that and we could clearly write that so the interior ministry of baden-verton confirmed this and there was obviously a bit of a fuss about this because we have this person who's a member of the protection of the constitution of the federal office for the protection of the constitution and a few months later he um after founding the club he takes a back seat and then shortly after that franco a is being uh discovered uh who's also a quite active member of um this um association so the federal agency for the protection of the constitution would be responsible for researching this association are they actually what they say they are or are they something else but are can they actually be neutral about this association if their own employee is uh also a founding member of this association and well probably they cannot so let's look at the results our research actually had so uh yeah there were some consequences so some people actually distance themselves from unitary so here we see this area in mosbach where there were paramilitary trainings and the minister interior ministry uh distanced himself and uh put bingo m away to another ministry and said he was only there privately and he was not there on like an official uh deploy the police started investigating against one police officer the weapon producer heckler and coch also distanced themselves from this association and the unitary uh logo was on their uh public images also so quit some people were thrown out there and also the energy concern company lve also reacted unitary members uh had uh they were deployed at hamburg force uh and they um were also cancelled this connection and other groups were more hesitant to cancel more connections and they're kind of good in what they are doing they train military tactics with uh weapons which look like actual weapons but they are actually toys but they are super super close to how they really are but they are not forbidden so if you're registered uh for being able to use these weapons or if you're working in an agency that it's legal so if there is a day x then you can are able to combine these things so you have people who are able to shoot and people who are uh informed about military tactics so you can combine these connections so this network was publicized before a day x to a kind of early time so nothing dangerous happened with this group now so it makes us harder to like have a final result a final line about how dangerous they actually are so the the secret agency is actually marking these people as dangerous now and including franco a and a lot of them were just radicalized very quickly in the very short time of weeks or sometimes months uh which you don't usually see so they aren't well-known right extreme right people but they were radicalized around 2015 and then became extremists so they aren't they don't have the picture of a closed set of mind about right wing ideology but what they have is a strong racism and they are they see the left as enemies and they see the antifa as enemies so this analysis doesn't really come from us it comes from the office of the protection of the constitution and they deal with like how we're supposed to deal with right wing terrorism and the first thing they state is what they're missing often this is taken as an entry point for the secret service to investigate so this was public even before the research was done and they are saying that they want to be able to check into the smartphones to read chats and let's look back to make the book for paman where our research began and in june of this year there were investigations and they were searching houses from members of the special forces because they were storing a lot of ammunition and weapons and they were stolen from official police weapons and they collected some and Marco G who we already seen in the panorama interview early on and they are collecting these weapons for day x and there is 60 000 parts of ammunition they are collecting and something else happened in summer of this year people were informed who were on an enemy list which was one of the most central lists which was found they weren't informed to be warned or be like um hey be careful someone is planning something but the they were called court to be witnesses and through this they were informed they are on these lists and through this all so a lot of other people were informed which were on these lists which were probably not the most in danger so officially no one ever uh is really at risk on this list so there are eight levels and they are on the second lowest level for this risk analysis so the people who were getting these letters they were really informed they were not really informed what it was about so they called us so what does this mean to get this letter and the interior minister in mecklenburg fork poman in 2017 he said yeah these preppers we are not really sure how many there are or whether they are dangerous and he started a commission a prepper commission uh with the um educators for political education uh and this commission should publish a report and that has not happened to this day we also don't know them but we do know some secret files from this commission and so what has this commission actually found out not much so first of all they have not really looked at not called so not at the official investigations they haven't really found anything about the police because of the police reports because preppers aren't really called out there and then they were like yeah let's look on line and one uh member of the agency to protect the constitution um was also involved and he presented some of the results and he found that there are facebook groups which are open and some which are closed and preppers are organized through that and in the open groups nothing problematic is happening and in the closed groups we just don't know because we can't get in there and that's too hard to get in and that's the level this commission was investigation investigating this thing and what do we call them what do we call these problematic preppers like there must be good proper preppers which like just are preparing themselves for catastrophes which can't be a bad thing and then there must be bad preppers and then they try to coin a special term for them deeply but like this probably won't catch on and then the media published something which didn't really confirm what they try to publish in their report so they just postponed publishing it so then we they said let's just publish what we have so far and then we have an internal note that the report is not uh very well done so we can't really publish it so it's still not published and then there was another commission which was looking at the special forces force unit and they should look at what the sika the special forces are doing what they are doing for to prepare for day x and so on and one of them is in front of a court now and this report is saying that in one of three of these sika groups people are like racist and there is a lack of attention of the of their bosses so it's kind of a disaster in a normal world this probably would call for them stepping down in mecklenburg forper man it apparently doesn't so he is just being moved to a different department to in the police and they are they just want to hire more women because then it's less problematic for some reason and then their personal consequences to police officers are just again being deployed to an other agencies and one of them is now at a special force in the police and one is in the agency for the protection of the constitution there's also the other court case that's happening right now so this is marco g marco g was on trial in schwerin in december he was put on trial because of violations against the weapons law and the ammunition law and the attorneys prosecutors took 45 minutes to read the list of accusations and marco g in not cause i mean not cause was not really part of this this was maybe the the cause for collecting all these weapons or a motive but this was not what the court case was really about marco g answered questions written and verbally he said yes maybe i was a bit sloppy with this ammunition and yes this rifle that i stole from the army i bought it on this like dark back alley and then i kind of forgot it at my at my wife's parents and my chats yes well they were there but they were completely unpolitical so they were not politically motivated so let's do this counter test so the parliament believes the chat called connect four as a right-wing terrorist he was part of this chat there was a trial there was a police officer who was there and he analyzed this chat conversation and he could only analyze part of this chat group because because there was a lot of deletions done before 2017 but there was a lot of other chats that he could evaluate and analyze and he marco g brought one of the stereotypical classic cases on the 20th of april he sent a picture around of adolf hitler with a subtitle happy birthday he shared photos of army officers pointing a gun at somebody and underneath it had read your your seeking of asylum is being denied so this appeared in the court case and was discussed extensively but regardless of these facts all of these were the case was dealt with quite lightly marco g the judge in this case said that after a first search of his house there was found a lot of ammunition but before the second he had a lot of less illegal ammunition and he got more less illegal ammunition and the judge interpreted this as taking a step into the right direction well this is a way that you can see this so the judge also considered well how do I say this an advantage that he kept book about his income because he said that claimed that terrorists do not do bookkeeping so this was yeah so he got a year and nine month um and on christmas he was released on bail and with his mother over christmas so this this court case really proves how difficult it is to deal with this network on a lawful level on a justice level um so let's look in the northeast of the republic of germany again so we have this group not quite so we have this group by marco g and part of these group we have two people that are being investigated um in prepping for um a quite grave um attack so this is technically considered terrorism prepping for a terrorist attack um and part of this group there's also the founder of this group marco g who together with we don't know this yet there's still investigation going on um obtained ammunition and got it illegally and but also some of the stuff he was allowed legally to own um so all of this stuff was hoarding was hoarded for day x for getting ready and he's um the verdict was announced but um the attorney general um the prosecutor um really like filed for appeal um so this is not the final um ruling so a lot of people are questioning now why is there no investigation of um terrorist unit um a terrorist association the general attorney um that's responsible for this asked himself this question clearly um if it's possible to start this investigation um he didn't see any reasons to start this investigation and it's couldn't prove this goal of having a politically motivated terrorist act so this procedure in was then given to the local trial in schwerin so then it was dealt with regionally here we can see also that this kind of separation of cases so one part of the group has this list of enemies another person has the ammunition and maybe a third party has the guns this can be a coincidence but maybe this is also the strategy um so also the um bkr so the german police the german criminal police um this is holga munch is the president of this um office um this is an example where he introduces how you do investigation and you can see he did it a bit better in the overview of department but this report that we mentioned that's for the supervisory committee this is going to get quite interesting however this one is secret um um but there is opposition um party leaders who wanted to be made public at least in the shorter version unit uh maybe everybody knows by now um a couple weeks ago there was this affair about robert muritz who was a local party member from lower sexony uh no from uh zachsen anhalt um and he also has a quite right-wing past and he's got the black sun tattooed on his body which is always put into association with the ss um so he was but then he claimed to only be interested in the Celtic mythology and you always ask yourself what would have happened if he would have been interested in wales um it would have to be a family tattoo um with the size of things so the cdu the christian democratic union almost um made parliament resolve over this case because the green party wanted this this person to leave the party it belonged to there was and then robert muritz himself um decided to step down and resolve these issues for the for the current government so um the cdu i mean he could have also said something about being distancing himself from those right wing um ideas but instead he chose to step down from the cdu so obviously it's become very clear that right-wing terrorists are quite comfortable joining unita and um i mean anne grid campan carl who's the head of the cdu she sees this a little bit different um she does say that if you um if you put a sign of this unit or like there if you label yourself with their signals like you do kind of associate yourself with right-wing oriented groups what does hannibal do like hannibal um officially stepped down um he was given a sword upon leaving he also left the german army and he will shortly be put on trial um for violating the weapons law and what does the mad do just to um sum this up and to to finish this up after um the killing of walter lübke and the hannibal affair and further research that was done on right-wing and wreck right extremist um cells within the army and the police departments the um state police is supposed to be restructured um and the federal office for military counter intelligence services is uh hit quite hard on this regard there's supposed to be more civilians civilians vice president um off the mad is supposed to be put in state they have about 200 members so there's quite a few and there's another position that's supposed to be made part of the defense ministry um that so that they can have disciplinary measurements against um right-wing ideology within these forces so this year also um also in this public hearing of the heads of the secret intelligence services um set again whether or not we have networks of right-wing extremist in the army and he said short and short i would like to say no yes um we've often tried to understand this terminology on the one hand we have a network for one person it's three people doing a phone call with one another and it's changing each over um how bad our um like our chancellor is because um because she's doing horribly on the migration politics for other people it's a much larger group that wants to threaten the uh free democratic order of our um country and this is how we understand it from a lawful state this is how it's stated in paragraph four um in the book that protects our constitution um and this clearly we're not blind towards these kind of networks that are building beyond this closed groups um we kind of use this term of the shadow army and we can clearly see that there's people who are building connections below this threshold so even constitution um in danger as they can connect they can influence each other in their in their um anti-constitutional um spirit and we can clearly find this kind of connections in the german army so we got uh yes no maybe so it's not a network but they are connected so we just have to keep on researching and this is what we will be doing so if you want to read our texts you find it at tats.de-hanibal and also we have a hashtag so uh we would be happy if you would pay us voluntarily thank you so much for your attention and if you have any questions please ask them uh you're listening to the translation of the talk about the hanibal affair by simply say m and katisanna if you have feedback you could use the hashtag c3t on twitter and or email us at hello at c3lingo.org we have some more time for questions so the internet uh a lot of people are saying thank you over irc and they ask about professional connections to the stay behind and gladio networks by the cia that's a very popular question from the beginning uh and to make this connection between gladio and hanibal we are looking for those connections but there are continuations between those networks or organizations maybe they were called differently earlier on so far we haven't found any results that there are connections or continuations between those networks question do you know how many secret agencies in germany have this very limited picture of right act right when extremism do you know how this comes yeah well there are several theories throughout this research a lot of these agencies were saying there's nothing to be found here and we questioned ourselves if we are looking at something and are seeing something that actually isn't there but there were different motivations to keep on going um i grew up in eastern germany with people with baseball bats and people are saying there isn't anything but i was feeling there is so we are kind of a diverse group who was aware that we should keep going to research this so just the hashtag diversity um if there are only white men saying yes this is the case and have some all have the same training in the military and i know diversity is a soft term but if you look at german security agencies that's actually uh not at all there it's just all white men and there are no diversity of views and opinions and identities so then there is also this aspect of personal connections and personal people just being close to each other and also if we were actually talking to one of those people or standing right in front of them we were like is this actually a nazi is he an extreme right person is he just like a crazy old person or is he actually dangerous it's not really easy to say it's not for us and it's also not uh easy to say for official agencies who have these legal terms which they have to be using so that's not um a bad thing to do that because if we were only uh using this for our own assumptions about this then it would not only be used for the right people but also for the left spectrum so i'm not sure if this precisely answers the question uh let's look at back at diversity christina schmidt uh our colleague uh is unfortunately not available today but she has for example done a podcast with katasha you find it online another question from the internet i say any personal consequences for you after this research was done any uh attacks yeah sebastian mentioned this example when there are people suddenly in front of you and there are some males which may be uh people threatening to kill us but not very specific not specifically to this research there is stuff very rarely stuff directly linked to that there are a lot of people who don't really like us uh if you for example look at uniter uh they were um calling in their lawyers uh early on and later they were just answering themselves and a lot of it was very funny actually so in the beginnings that were the tactics uh they were in the beginning calling in their lawyers and tried to intimidate us but that just resolved itself another question thank you so much for your research a question about day x which you've mentioned a lot of times are there stronger like better definitions uh who's defining this and who is actually saying now we have day x good question there is no really good definition what is this day x there is some kind of public uh statements there might be a power outage if there is a power stage for two or three days that's not very unrealistic but what uh it is about is the order in the state if this breaks down so there's no super clear definition within the networks it's about having too many migrants and they are overrunning us and then we are no one else is protecting us so we have to do it ourselves so it's not a super clear definition so for example in hamburg during g20 there was a fire so maybe they can call just a small group can call that day x and um so this could be also done artificially so franco uh a might be also involved here we are not really clear if there is a connection so i myself as a pretended refugee might plan a attack and then other people have to react to that so yeah again there is no clear definition it's kind of weird there's only time for one more question but there are many more questions in the audience in the slides about the networks there was a mention of timo age uh who was also connected to the nsu terrorist group what's their connection these connections we have done here are not directly to the nsu but they are connected to michel kieselwecker that are the last victim of the nsu who were also in the police unit around her so ringo was um was also involved with this and he was uh already noted because he was training illegally police people in libya and we are not sure if there is any significance to that but it was kind of notable that there were people showing up again and here's this person who is a member of the afd the right party in the german german parliament so there is connection to the kuklicks clan it's it's kind of notable but we are not sure about the significance this has for this very interesting yeah thank you again for this research um this has been the translation of the talk about the Hannibal affair again then let's say m and katie