 Okay. Welcome to the Monday, October 18, 2021 meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Gilbertson, committee member. Steve Everett, committee member. Martha Smurski, member. Ms. Pritchett, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. I will let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. All right. So I think everybody we have on tonight is applicants, but there might be some people watching from home on Orca who need to hear what's going on and know how to come in. So for anyone viewing this meeting via Orca media, you can participate in tonight's design review committee meeting via the zoom platform, either using video or telephone access options. So there's this link here that you can use. And that'll get you right into the zoom platform. Alternatively, you can just call in using this phone number and meeting ID here. 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Unless anybody from the committee has anything to add at this point do I hear a motion to approve the agenda. So moved. Eric. And I'll second it. This is Martha. All in favor of the agenda. Speak your names. Eric. The agenda is approved. Unless anybody has anything else to add at this point we can go to the first application. For 70 Main Street, big fish enterprises is someone there to explain your application. Yeah, so if you could come up to the seat there in front of the microphone and just make sure you speak really clearly into the microphone that way both people. Remote can hear you as well as our recording secretary when she takes the minutes from the recording. Yes, can everybody remotely hear Abby. No. Try it again. Just get close as you can to the microphone. Hi my name is Abby. Can you hear me now. Okay, great. You spell that with a Y. I do. ABBY. And what's your last name. Okay, and describe your application. Okay, so we're here at charliot's. We're hoping that we could bring back the ceiling to floor windows we had previously to the late 70s early 80s when we had to basically cut them in half because people were being thrown through them frequently. So we're hoping that we could open the door case. And as the town years up for our new outdoor life, we would like to have windows that we too could open to the public now that we're a bar that we're a little more proud of. And so the design in mind. Jesse has me pitching to you is a sort of garage door style. Much like creases at Langdon street. At the corner. And the reason we prefer the garage door style to the sliding style for positive pies that we don't have enough with the building to slide anything. But we do have ceilings that we could, we could use for that purpose. And I think that's basically it. As far as the aesthetics. So, we're absolutely willing to work without whatever the city would like to see in front of them, in order to make it look as beautiful as possible. It can only be an improvement in my humble opinion. So there's that. And I'm here for questions. For the, I see that the sections are tubular aluminum extrusion. And it says non insulated. They make an aluminum extrusion that has a thermal break. It has a, there's a tight rubber piece that connects the pieces together but gives you a thermal break. Because otherwise you're going to end up with ice on the inside in the winter, when it's below zero. And that's the only thing we would recommend. There are a little more money, but you will save that in the first year in your heating bill. We're already leaking up as far as heating goes. And you want these as tight as possible. And the other recommendation would be that the, the center mullions would be as small as possible. Given the need for structural integrity. Abby, this is Martha. I have some problems with the size of these windows. It really changes the look of the building from what we have learned to love here over the last 40 years. And for that reason, I really am not comfortable with this. It is so much larger than the windows that exist. And I think it's a good idea to look at the size of the windows. And if you look at it out, the place on Langdon street and positive pie, they, their windows actually were the same size as those existing. And this makes a lot of difference to me. Well, with all due respect, Martha. I have a photograph in the packet. I don't believe it's in this packet, but in our original application. Knowing that the windows historically were the size that we're. We're hoping to do now. Yeah, yep. They're just able to open is the only difference. Yeah, I think, I think large windows like that were common, although they usually were just maybe four pains at the most. Right. On older, you know, he starts, you know, like early 20th century storefront buildings. Yeah, so. And like, I'll go ahead. I'm so sorry. That's all right. You go ahead. Well, what I was going to say is that I think that if we look at what the color of the inside appears to be during the day, we could probably match that color with that word mullions. So I think that we should be able to make it as, as subtle as possible that they are garage stores, because one of the things about Charlie is, is that we kind of pride ourselves on being in a historic landmark in Montpelier and we don't want to do anything that's going to modernize us. In any way, usually. Martha, I feel like I'm, I'm with you on this. I don't want it to look all fancy and modern at all. So I'd love to get suggestions on how maybe we could do this in a way that that that goes with your aesthetic. Meredith, do you have a copy of that photograph of the early image of the building when the windows. Yeah, I'll I'll share that. Okay, great. When was the building built? We have a fire map on the wall that stated 1861. Okay, and that's as far back as I can get it and it was called the TJ Hevard Saloon then right. I suspect it's over. I suspect so too I think a marketplace burnt down in the parking lot out back and that's why we had this blueprint thing. I would guess that these are the windows the size of the original windows, or at least the later version because it's a pretty standard size for downtown building. I'm very concerned about the restoring the opening. I'm very concerned about the size of the mountains and millions so that you're dividing this. What this picture shows a single painting. The eight sections. And I understand the garage door concept. This really looks like a garage door. I don't know if there are other windows available or what that are have much smaller dividers. I agree with you. Again, I, this isn't necessarily my design, however, I, I would love to. I mean, but here's, here's Langdon Street. I mean, this doesn't look to spark either. Honestly, I mean it's the color scheme is beautiful. But again, like, this doesn't look like it was original by any means. I mean, actually, that being said, in that one they were actually approved with a black color. And again, the reasoning is the black color looks like the makes the dividers go away and looks like the open window right and I would love to do something like that. This one's a little over six feet high, and you've got four panels so each of the glass panels is only about that high. Would could it be done with instead of four panels could it be done with three panels. I hope so. That'd be great. And the other thing too is that there'd be more glass and less. A better configuration. Yeah, I think. Just to make it the whole door into four. So that I don't know the availability of that. Right. Because it would still have to then work. So what I'm hearing from you is that you would like to see center mullins as small as possible and fewer panels. What I'm seeing too is that our picture unfortunately is not black like this one. So if we had black mullins and so, like, in fact, when I got this from Jesse I said, are we are these frosted pains like what are we doing here for privacy like what. But really, that's just the way the graphic is, it's unfortunate, but that should be black. Because it would be reflecting the inside of the dark bar that I spend most of my time working in. So I know how dark it is in that it probably won't look like that. And honestly, you see what I'm saying. The other thing is with the with a proper aluminum extrusion. You could eliminate the center bar. Oh right. You could eliminate the center bar and do three panels across which would give you more glass. And it was a more traditional window pattern would be just divided down by vertically and horizontal before pains. The problem, the problem there is you've got a three foot to for garage door to open you've got a three foot piece of glass, which is big trying to fold it inside they won't, they won't run on the track very well. Or you could do double hunks that they would be pretty happy to see you could open half of the light the lower half of the window or the upper half. Right. Oh yeah. For that size, I think that would be hard to open. Two double hunks to double hunks. I don't know how you want to ventilate it but if you want the top open you could actually make it so the windows drop down. I don't want it open on the bottom. I mean the windows are there. This is already been approved for different building right by the main tank. Well that one's maintaining an existing opening, and it's, it's black. It's a particular location. It's a little different location than it is on main street. Sure. Just a thought. Because the garage doors only open the one direction right. Just going back to Eric's idea about the double hunks. You know, if the windows going down this low even with your on and you're going to get splashed back up from the sidewalk. Sorry. You're going to get a double hunk when it's raining and you can open from the top down. True. You're going to get more of that ventilation without having to worry about the water coming in. Right. On the super rainy days. We do have an awning over the top. You have an awning but I'm not sure if that's going to protect you as much from the splashes from the sidewalk. I don't know. Just a thought. No, that's an interesting thought. And I just don't understand how this is different. I guess. Well, two double hunks basically get rid of the horizontal bars, two of the horizontal bars. So you have a center divider, and then four panes of glass. Sure. I think then again, and then again, you can open the bottom up or the top down either one. I think the aesthetic would be to have it all open. I think that's sort of what we're going for much like this building. And also the positive high windows open very, very wide and also ceiling to floor this about and also didn't Julio do something similar. There's, there's a sliders that goes side to side. And they are tall and narrow, they're three pains, and then they all open to one side so that two thirds of it's open, but a third of it has the three sash. One other thing I was thinking of is what about front doors, would that be more aesthetic? Like a case window. Like something that opened out, much like they do in New Orleans. I'd have to run them IDPW because they're going out into the sidewalk. What would they would be, they'd be secured open, like they wouldn't be like, walking around the problem. I don't even know if Jesse would go for that but the problem there is that if you divide this window in half and have this swing out. Yep. It swings into the doorway. Sure. Going into the, into the front. Okay. We're also swing way out into the sidewalk too. Right. No, I understand what you're saying, even if they folded, I see. Okay, well I just want to be able to go back to Jesse with recommendations and I don't really know how this process works, obviously. It can work a couple of different ways. So the DRC can give you recommendations and then have you go back and redesign and then come back. Okay. Or they can give you actual, like, clear recommendations of a few things to tweak on what you apply for and that anything within that realm is acceptable. That's a way to permit within those bounds. There's a couple of ways this should go. Great. It kind of depends on how to vote. I'd very much like to see you come back. Thank you. Liz and Martha, did you hear what Eric just said? I believe so, Eric. You're asking her to come back. Is that what you're saying? And there's a pretty significant building on Main Street. I promise it'll look better than it does now though. Yeah. They're going to let me paint it now. So with several options, the number one with two double hung windows on each side to on each side. That would be just a single divider in the middle. Horizontally and vertically. The other option would be with, see what it looks like with three glass panels instead of four with full width glass and no divider in the middle. I think one of the reasons this building is so important too. It's one of the few remaining wood frame buildings from the 19th century down, down. It's most of them burn. Yeah, so it really sort of stands out. Oh, we know. And again, whichever, I would check to see what you can find for a sash with a thermal break, especially aluminum. If it's an extruded aluminum product, it should have a thermal break in it. So otherwise at 20 below, again, you're going to be iced up on the inside. Right. I have a feeling that in the wintertime we won't be utilizing these as much, but I hear what you're saying. Well, they'll still be closed. And with solid aluminum, it's going to be as cold on the inside of the glass as the inside of the sash as it is on the outside. No, and that's important because I stand about two feet away from it. Anybody sitting close to it's going to be cold and then you're going to end up with ice on it because you've got warmed air inside against a cold surface and it will freeze. And then that will melt and get down on the wood underneath. Yep. And that's not great either. Yeah. So whatever you use a thermal break and insulated glass. Again, either two double hunks on either side. Yeah, or a three panel window instead of a four with no vertical divider in the middle. And draw those up to see what they look like. Anything else you want to hear from me. I have one little thing I want to say to you all. Okay. And that is thank you so much for letting us have the outside space. So it's a great time changer and it's kept us afloat and it's brought us new people that love us and we really appreciate you a lot. Good. To say that at the beginning, but I was nervous. I appreciate Charlie. Oh, they don't go in there much anymore. I had my first drinking my pillier. From the Midwest, it was the only place in town that looked like a bar. A dive bar. Oh, wow. And my mother had her 80th birthday there. That's amazing. Very cool. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So you'll come back to the kids game. Yes, the next meeting. Thank you. So just send me tweaks before the next meeting, which will be in two weeks to try and get that to us like the week before. Thank you. Thank you. The next application is for 132 Main Street. Main Street condo association is. Come forward and they have a seat. Thank you. And describe your project. Good evening. My name is Bonnie Collins and I'm here today. On behalf of small program for quality and health care, otherwise known as. And the 132 134 Main Street condo association. And what we are here, what we would like to do is there is a small. 25 foot section of picket fence. The back of our party. And it has been very bad disrepair over the years. There was a little gate that was old in, but it has flopped backwards and now it's sort of rusted and rotted in place. Anyway, my opinion, but it's been very bad disrepair. So we feel like it should be. So we got a couple of quotes to replace it with the same exact thing, a picket fence. But we also thought maybe perhaps it would be just as better idea to replace it with a split rail fence, which is still aesthetically pleasing. So we can allow water, debris and snow to move through back and forth without what's causing lots of damage be a lot sturdier. Also, the existing fence is five, four by four upright posts that support that fence, they are just in the dirt. And they are rotting off. So they're very wobbly. You can shake the fence back and forth. Our proposal or our little contractor handing them proposed that he would remove the four existing posts, a five existing posts, put back four will be a little longer span, and actually dig out a little two feet down 18 inches around to cure those posts with some cement. So they'd be at least 24 inches of cement. And I did include a picture of sort of a side view of a hose in the grass. Basically, it's not changing much. We just want to, you know, have that fence area be a lot better looking from the street. It looks very bad. Also, we do have a couple of counselors that are in our building. They have children that come from counseling. It's kind of a danger to have that in the back of the parking lot open. Just kind of invite people to wander over there to see that open. I don't know. So that's, that's what we would like to do. You're planning on real wood, not the plastic. Real wood. No, this would be a pressure treated or Cedar. Cedar is what we've looked into. And then it would be painted white. The other thing you could probably do, I think these fences is pretty easy to take the rails out. You could just slide them a little bit because they're quite shaped on the end. You could in the winter, you could actually take down a section of the fence. So your snow fog, I could. Yeah, you could. Yeah, that would be a good idea. Now, I have a question regarding code with kids in the lot coming and going in the building. Are you required to have a smaller opening between the components of the fence. Exactly. Sure. I guess I would have to ask our insurance company. They think that fence would be okay. It's not our, you know, it would only be one of the building's tenants who has the right potential. It's a potential, you know, we see children in a public space where there are kids there, potentially kids there. But it may be required to have a smaller opening between the components, which is why my guess is why the picket was there. I think originally the picket was there because the church next door has a picket. There's a little larger of a version. It's a different version, but we have no idea when that original picket fence actually went in. It probably went to blend with the church next door. We would originally, I had submitted proposals for a picket, you know, to replace the same, just the same as same. So that is still an option on, you know, that we would go for if a railing, a split rail, say like they have unsafe opening or offered some sort of code. We have prices for both the split rail fence to be honest with you will be cheaper. Yes. It's more expensive to do the split rail. We were also just thinking of the water and the flow, you know, the split rail does catch more, but you know, whatever, whatever the whatever would be the most appropriate to, to replace this, you know, fence that's in just. One thing that occurs to me is that the picket fence if you're looking at the picture, one of your pictures here view one. It shows that aesthetically it blocks the view of the foundation on the other side of the river, which is a lot more attractive to me than looking at that foundation. So I can see the real benefit of a thing with the picture. Yeah. I don't think the split rail is not going to give you that same blocking. I think the picket picket fence would definitely be safer for far as right people and kids. The temptation to crawl down to the river is probably there. Probably easier to climb on a up and over a picket fence. I mean a split rail fence to the picket fence. I think the tree would post the picket fence it would probably last longer and we would still even if we went, you know, we change it and we go with the picket fence. We would still like to put the cement around the post. Yes, and that's a that's an extra. That's a really good idea. I think that's really a necessary thing for stability. But you know, you are going to get the snow. Extra because you certainly don't want anything happening to it. And, you know, pieces ending up in the river right now that's a distinct possibility as it sits now. Really kind of concerned that it's not going to make it another one. The other issue with a split rail fence is it's more subject to vandalism because you can move the rails out and they just get tossed in the river. Well, originally, at home, we screwed ours together. Yes, we put them in and screwed it together. That was originally the way I figured we would do it but then Mr Gilbert's and mentioned, you know, maybe removing them for the snow to, you know, big back loader. I agree with pretty much everything as far as the view is going to be better if it's picket. It does match the church next door. So if you're walking down the sidewalk, it would be better either way. I definitely need to remove the fence and I would certainly submit pictures, you know, tomorrow of the picket, but it would be the same exactly. Hi. If you're replacing what was there, you don't need to give us new pictures or come back if you're replacing what's there. I think historically the picket is probably more correct for in town applications that plus a combination of the picket being safer for kids who might be in the lot. Because as Eric said, the first temptation is for they're going to climb right over that split rail. One picture you see like the opening like you see an actual opening. I mean, that's what sort of part of the debate of we need to do something with that fence because you know, one little kid came running out and you know, I have to be on the parking lot, but you know, you need to be lying and I, hey, and his mother caught him and hey, and then I said that that's it. We have to do something about the fence. I'm going to close it. You just couldn't. If I tried pulling that piece back over to try to shut that go big. It's so rusted and rotted the hinges that it really started to fall apart in my hands and yes, the whole thing. Well, what you can do is you can still put a gate in there for access, or you could put a double gate in there for access with a latch on the far side so that kids kids can't see it or reach it. That way you could do a, you could do a double, do a double so if they're moving snow they could swing it and push snow with and swing it back out. Yeah, keep that hidden from anybody else can see it. Yeah. That's an option. Yeah, as well. I'd like to pick a fence better but would accept the other one. I think for practical reasons and safety reasons. And that would be basically. So again, you would just be putting back what we're going to be putting back there. The only differences we're adding a cement. Yes. Oh, that's fine. So just a little reminder, these forums. And the way I've sort of prefilled out some sections, it's suggestions, right. So if you disagree with something that I said was not applicable or I didn't say something was not applicable and you want it to be not applicable, you can, you can tweak that I just tried to do a little, save you a little time here in there. Okay, thank you. We can go through the criteria, which apply to all projects. The non exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing building shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. That picket fence it's there, you're just replacing basically what was there with new materials and anchoring it better into the ground that's acceptable. The existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use, including the fence acceptable landscaping screening and site furnishings projects within the design review overly district and subject to the landscaping requirements in section 32 three shall consider the following site furnishings including fencing seating and other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. I'm skewer undermine key architectural patterns or elements of the historic buildings, and that is acceptable. So just replacing the picket fence. Again, for historic appearance and for safety reasons. All in favor of the application. Speak your names. Martha says yes to picket fence. This is yes. So the picket fence is approved again I think in the long run. I think you're better off again I think I'm afraid the split rail would be an attractive nuisance with kids coming in and out as you saw one heading there yourself. Because the application itself was actually for the split rail. You want to put in the recommendations. It's been approved with a pick with a picket. Yep. And then maybe and there's an option for the double wide gate because that wasn't actually part of the application that would just be helpful for the record. Yeah, and then I can also have that for the contractor guy to say go ahead. And that's the option price it option if it works great option and that would work too because they do pile the snow right in front of there. So once or twice a year we can just have them get you know, unload it, keep it so that there's not so much piled against it. That would be a good plan. And hopefully it'll last another week we don't know how long this fence has been here so hopefully replacing it it'll be here another 20 30 years. I think it's going to take a long time. So Steve's filling out this forum, you have a pen up there where you can sign it, and then you'll give it back to me and we'll get that permit issued in the next couple days. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you very much to the rest of the committee for hearing you this evening. Have a nice evening. Thank you and good luck with your project. Here for this one. Okay, but thank you. Okay, we can go to the next application for 20 Baldwin Street. Honour, Alex Halas and Paul Reed threshold building and design applicant. Remove and replace existing deck replace existing patio and add a new walkway. So we've got will shave on on. Okay. Just scribe your application for us. Pretty straightforward. As you can probably see from the application there is a essentially failed pressure treated deck of unknown historical era, essentially at grade. And the clients just want to replace it with something a little more durable and a little less chunky in the rallying detail. So that's pretty much it. Will it be essentially the same footprint. Yep. And where does the new walkway go. So if you look at the pictures of the, because sort of to the, the west of the deck, I would say. So if you're looking on the pictures of the existing. This is kind of along the side of the deck. Okay. So if you look back at the house then. Yeah. You really can't see this deck from anywhere other than the actual yard. It backs up all to the woods of the redstone campus there. We're just going to continue the stone around the outside of the deck. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So with the new walkway. You know, I'm not gonna go. No subtle. They like well push a wheel barrow through there from time to times, and it's just that slight. Gentle grade. I've got it up on the big screen too. There's the new walkway. And there's a little bit of the extended patio here. So that it matches up with the walkway. That right. Well. Yep. I'm good with this. I'm good with it too. I'll run through the criteria for this one. For structures, character defining features, finishes, and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize the historic buildings shall be preserved. Deteriorated character defining features will be repaired rather than replaced, if possible, where the deterioration requires replacement. The new features shall be replaced in kind or in a similar fashion at that location. No treatments would cause damage to historic materials. So that's acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place, and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old, but shall respect and be compatible with a massing, size, scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties. That's acceptable. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tabulator trim, other forms of molding or character defining, detailing, prevailing on the existing buildings should be considered in the alteration. That's acceptable. This deck is not impinging or contrasting with any of that. Landscaping, screening, and site furnishings. Site furnishings, including fencing, seating, other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. And does any landscaping obscure or under my key architectural patterns? And for historic structures existing historic and contributing resources such as street trees, fences, gates, walls, steps, gazebos, walkways, front and side yard pattern shall be retained or restored when impacted by the alteration of a building. Walls and fences shall be compatible with a site and the building and scale traditional materials and design that reflect the period of the building and are compatible with surrounding context. Acceptable. And porches and stairs. Location of porches, ramps, stairs shall be placed in a manner that does not impact or undermine the original and significant ornamentation or detailing of the existing building. Stairs, ramps, and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect and be compatible with the historic and imported design features of the existing building and new construction. Stairs and ramps shall be designed in a manner with details and materials that provide the most sensitive and compatible structure that fits the building, design, and layout acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. Eric. Martha. Liz. And Steve. Application is approved. Thank you. So we'll all be emailing a copy of the recommendation form, and if we can just get an acknowledgement back, whether that's a signed copy of it or just an email saying that you've received it. OK. But that's not going to hold up the permit issuance because there's no recommendations on here. OK, perfect. Awesome. All right, thank you. Thank you very much for coming to the committee and good luck with your project. Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you. And the last application is for 79 Main Street, Heaney Family, LLC, demolition of two rooftop chimneys. There's someone here. I'm here. Hi, Tim. Hey, Steve. Go ahead and describe your chimney removal. My dilemma. So we have, I hope you've seen the photos. I'm sure you know the building, but the two chimneys on the front of 7933 Main in their day, I'm sure, went further down in the building and performed a function. At some point a very long time ago, someone chopped them off and left them sitting on eight by eight beams in the attic. And unfortunately, they deteriorated tremendously over the recent years to the point where we're trying to figure out what to do with them. They're a tremendous amount of dead weight up there. And the parts above the roof now, the mortars failed and they're just dangerous. The one on the right side toward the Blanchard block, it's hard to tell from these views, but if you go up in the top apartment in the block and look over, that chimney has definitely shifted back just with the pressure of the wind coming down State Street over the years. And that's really the one that scares me the most that it's just gonna fall at some point. So as you can see from the photos, it's resting on the attic floor. The base is really deteriorated. That apparently water was coming down through them until the caps were put on. The other interesting aspect of this issue is, these chimneys are actually, the brickwork is integral with the front facade of the building up there. So that outside wall of the chimney is actually part of that front wall that you see from the outside. So I guess we view this as a multi-phase project. This would be phase one, basically just motivated by safety issues is getting them down so that they won't fall and kill someone. And then figuring out what's a reasonable way to restore these features, they're strictly aesthetic at this point. They have no function for the building and with the weight issues that go with the current construction, they're imposing a lot of weight on an old structure unnecessarily. It's, I know they look from those photos or if you're looking at the street, they don't look that large, but when you're up beside them, they're really big. And I think the engineer mentioned roughly five pounds of brick for each brick in those, they just weight thousands of pounds a piece. That's what we're looking at is basically just removing them now for safety, working out a redesign and how we can reconstruct something that will look historically right and hopefully remove a lot of weight and burden from the building. And the answers to that latter part of the project I don't have yet. Tim, I have a question that's totally irrelevant first. What's the origin of the wheel in the bottom photographs? Oh man, you are easily distracted here. There used to be a book bindery in the attic of that building. And that's one of the remaining wheels from there was big wheels with gears up in the structure. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a bullwheel for a hoisting mechanism of some kind. I agree. But yeah, this looks like a rough situation. You're gonna have to take those down. But I can make a suggestion that the Grafton Inn, down in Grafton, they had a similar situation with chimneys except they wanted to put in a cell tower. And Grafton is pretty particular about what goes on with their buildings, the Windham Foundation. They worked with architect Tom Keefe and they had a fiberglass chimney made. And you can't tell from the ground that it's a fiberglass chimney. Really? I can maybe get you some more information on that if you want. That would be interesting, because something certainly lighter weight would be good. It also needs to be incredibly durable up there because the winds are more than one might guess coming down Stay Street when they hit that building head on. Whatever's up there. Whatever's up there. Bricks them up inside, of course, with steel or whatever, but save the metal pieces on the front. Yeah, Tim, I totally understand your situation. I was going to make a joke that you could use Zbrick, but that's not really that funny. It's not. And I actually had a contractor propose it too. No way. Not going there. No way. Yeah. These are definitely. A character defining feature for this style of building. Yeah. They're actually really attractive. Yeah. I totally understand. I can find out some more stuff on the fiberglass. Yeah. The Mary Fletcher building. I mean, it's like a Victorian house, but it has quite a few elaborate chimneys that had been removed. And I know they put. Put them back. And I think they are brick, but. And then maybe I could try to find out a little bit about that. If you wanted to know another option. Yes, thanks. I think it's really what we're thinking right now is if we can, because they will come down piece by piece. It's the only way to do it. Is to try to save as many of the bricks as we can as they come down and warehouse until we're ready to reconstruct. And because these chimneys are multiple layers of brick. Thick. Possibly if we can use the new brick, at least as a facade layer. Is that the right term? You know, an exterior. On the new structures. It would have the same look. But not all the weight of all the new bricks. But it's not all the weight of all the new bricks. But it's not on the new structures. It would have the same look. But not all the weight of all those layers of brick. I worry about the structure underneath. Putting the bricks back. Okay. Who knows what it goes. All that weight goes down through. You can see from the pictures in the attic right now. They're just right in the middle of it. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Part of the design, we had engineering ventures involved to help me on the design a little and clearly even the base within the attic, if we can. Reconstruct that with a different material inside that wouldn't be visible, but would provide support. So that might be a steel structure. Is what they were thinking. Then to build up on that, but that would remove even just the bricks within the attic. The, you know, these chimneys often angled. And you can see in one of the photographs that. Pattern in the wall there where it looks like creosote leaking through it. That they, they. Went down to the center of the rooms on the first floor. Through an angle. Yeah. It's, it's a fascinating old attic up there, but yeah, it would be nice to have always thought someday to finish it, but we won't be able to do that without an elevator. I don't think so. That's a way down the road project. But. But anyway, so I guess it's really phase one is, is just to remove them for safety reasons and then. To come back to you with more. Plans as we resolved how to, how to do this. So, so it's, if it, if it's a safety issue. You could certainly re, remove the existing chimneys and then explore the options for replacing. Yeah. Materials that. That have the same appearance. Since they're non functional. And as long as they have the same appearance as the existing chimneys, and you could come back with some options. For replacing that. Okay. And if there's a safety issue of bricks or getting ready to fall on people, I mean, you've, that's something you've got to deal with pretty quickly. It is. Anytime timber is holding up masonry. It's not a good situation. Because wood tends to deflect over time. Particularly if it's overloaded. I agree. So you want to explore some more options. As far as the possible replacement of them with a different material. Yeah, I think I'm open to any reasonable option that's going to look good. And hold up well, it needs to be durable. Yes. He would be coming back with a fresh application for that. Yeah. Get him in here for the demolition once we have the documentation. Yes. I will try to get hold of the person who did the chimneys down and grabbed and then give you that contact information, Tim. Thank you. So we can approve the demolition of. Yeah. Based on a safety issue. And again, I can go through the criteria for that. And again, this is has to do with a safety issue with the existing chimneys starting to disintegrate. And again, some of these aren't applicable if you need to, because we don't really have a lot of demo criteria. I think it's important to put it in the comments, Steve, that this is a safety issue that these are character defining features on the building. Yes. So it's really clear it's not. And I don't think we can make any requirement that you put them back, but I certainly would make that a suggestion. Based on the character, they talk about character defining features finishes construction techniques. She'll be preserved when possible, but obviously this can't be. I mean, it's a, it's beyond preserving. So if the deteriorated feature should be repaired rather than placed again, you're going to have to take this one down and do something in its place. Severity of deterioration requires replacement of a character defining feature. The new features should be replaced in kind. And again, and in kind with with appearance. Don't put the in kind in there because that means it's, it's even up. Okay. So I would just say acceptable demolition required due to safety issues. And then down below again, for the same reason, demolition required due to safety issues, alterations to buildings called for by public safety, accessibility and fire coach will be designed to maintain the character of construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible. And I would suggest that they, you save the materials. So when they go to matching and take some heavier contractor, take some good photographs so they can. Find the exact pattern. And then like the brick pattern, save the bricks and, you know, good close up photographs with a scale. And then, you know, not, not a whole thing, but a part of it and save the, the iron. And I'm just making that notation here that the bricks removed. And the demolition process. Will be saved. For replication and replacement. I mean, some of those bricks, maybe. You know, could be reused. It seems to me, but I, you know, I. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Okay. So basically this is an approval for the demolition of the. Existing chimneys due to safety issues. And then he will come back. With an application for replacing. All in favor of the demolition is required. Speak your names. Eric. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Steve in favor of. You can get in touch with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meredith. When you come up with some ideas for. Replacement. Yep. So we'll, um, Tim, so this is going to go before the development review board in two weeks. Right. And so they'll get a copy of this recommendation form. I'll get it scanned and sent to you ahead of time. Okay. And. When it comes time to rebuilding the chimneys, we're going to go back to the development review. I can't imagine that that would go back to the development review board, but we do need to go to the DRB for this demolition. Okay. Um, and so, you know, we've got, if you have any other reports, because we talked about those that you might have some additional reports, I'm going to be good to have those before we go to the DRB, but I think that this, you know, this review at design review committee will be helpful for you. Okay. I think we'll get some emails from. Bob Gowens chief Gowens and Chris Lumbra about it. That'll go into the file for the DRB. Okay. But I'll be in touch. Yep. I'm just good. Thanks everyone. Thank you, Tim. Good luck with your project. Good night. Thanks. Is everyone had a chance to look at the meeting minutes of October, the fourth. Yes. And I second it. I'll be in touch with the meeting minutes of October, the fourth. I'll be in touch with the meeting minutes of October, the fourth speaker names. Eric. Marcia. Steve. And then Liz. Liz, you were on mute. You proved the minutes. Yeah. I think you were. I have you on the, in the minutes is being there, but maybe, maybe the minutes are wrong. Yeah, I was. I'm sorry. I was away, but I did, I did come in. I did call in from, I was in California. I was thinking, it wasn't that one. Okay. And does anyone have any other business? If not, do I hear a motion to adjourn? And I'll second it. This is Martha. All in favor of adjournments. Speak your names. Martha. Liz. And Steve. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you.