 Bonjour à tous et à tous. Bienvenue à cette conversation entre Zoe Leona, Tim Johnson, Elizabeth Lebovici et Catherine Fasserias, organisé dans le contexte de l'opinion de Zoe Leona's exhibition, Allerio to the River, et le lancement de l'application de la même nom. Au début du projet, Zoe Leona a l'intention que la single artwork qu'elle a été dans le processus de création avec le grand-dévoil de Zoe Leona devrait être accompagnée par un livre. Ce n'est pas un catalogue de convention, un catalogue d'exhibition, mais un livre sur le river. Elle a rapidement embarqué Marfa-based poet Tim Johnson dans le projet comme éditeur du livre, mais aussi comme collaborateur dans le fait du travail. Encore, elles ont invité des contributaires de différentes disciplines, historiens, art historians, artistes, novelistes, poètes, journalistes, anthropologistes, archéologistes, pour évoquer des facettes multiples du river. Le comité est une publication impressionnante de deux volumes édite par Tim Johnson, designée par Joseph Logan et publiée par les attracants et M. Luxembourg. Beaucoup de gens ont été convaincés dans le making de la publication et en biais de M. Moudam et M. Cotter, créateur de l'exhibition. J'aimerais expliquer quelques choses importantes. Tout d'abord, nous aimerions exprimer notre plus grande gratitude à Tim Johnson pour le rôle crucial qu'il a joué pour la publication et le projet. Nous aimerions aussi exprimer notre plus grand thanks à Tim Johnson pour sa conviction et à Adam Jackman et à M. Moudam de Paris notre partenaire pour l'exhibition. Un grand merci à le studio de l'artiste et à Jocelyne Davies et Ryan Lipton. Nous aimerions aussi Jocelyne Logan pour son design élégant et inspirant. Nous aimerions aussi il y en a beaucoup à être listés ici. Si je le compte correctement, il y en a 28. Mais nous avons le plaisir d'avoir avec nous 2, Catherine Vacherias et Elizabeth Lebovici. 2 de nos amis de l'artiste qui travaillent ensemble sur les textes, les langues et les identités. Merci Catherine et Elizabeth. Nous aimerions aussi remercier nos collègues du service de publication Deborah Lombolais et Clarice Fartman qui travaillent closely avec les députés de la coordination du livre, et Sarah Beaumont, assistant curator, Véronique de Alzoa, registre de l'exhibition et Caroline Hoffman qui organisent cet événement. Finalement, un grand merci à Zoe qui a été le maire de ce livre. Merci à Zoe pour votre art, pour votre exhibition et pour votre publication, qui nous reste pour longtemps dans la mémoire de la Musée. Merci. Je veux réaffirmer toutes ces merci. Merci à Moudam et à la Musée de Paris et à tous les éditors et translators et à tous les gens qui ont travaillé ici. Je veux aussi remercier Zoe pour m'inviter moi dans le projet. Je vais en parler un peu. Je l'ai dit quelques fois cette semaine que je suis un éditor, mais je suis aussi un soldat. J'ai un bookstore en Marfa, Texas, donc je suis très excité de commencer par décrire cet objectif pour vous et pour tout le monde qui vous regardez à la maison. Il y a le livre sur la table et ici, c'est le livre. Et bien sûr, c'est disponible pour le sale à l'extérieur dans le Moudam Avant d'entrer la conversation, Zoe et moi avons été des amis pour un an, probablement, et j'ai connu Catherine et Elizabeth pendant plusieurs années. C'est-à-dire, en faisant le livre, nous avons été de plus en plus de nos amis. Nous allons continuer la conversation aujourd'hui sur la nature de nos contributions à ce livre, mais aussi des questions qui permettent les contributions et les questions pour nous sur la manière dont nous travaillons et nos fields individuels et nos vies. Je veux dire que c'est un livre et deux volumes et j'ai l'impression que c'est un grand accomplissement parce que c'est beaucoup, il y a vraiment 20. Quand Zoe et moi ont commencé, nous avons eu un grand sens de combien de contributions et nous allons être heureux si nous avons 16 ou 14, mais nous avons 20 en mind. Nous avons voulu avoir 20 et nous avons fait 20 bonnes contributions à ce livre, le texte volume. Je suis très heureux d'être associé avec tous les contributaires. Et aujourd'hui nous allons parler en particulier d'Elisabeth Catherine's collaborative contribution, mais je veux remercier le futur de tous les contributaires. Et je veux aussi remercier Nicolas Van Velsen, mon ami de Haja Kahn qui a été un believer en ce livre. Quand elle a entendu sur le projet, elle a demandé si elle pouvait être involvement et qu'elle s'est restée avec notre livre jusqu'à la fin. Il n'y a pas beaucoup de gens qui auraient fait ça et j'ai vraiment apprécié ça. Absolument. C'est un livre et deux volumes. Le premier volume est dans un moyen d'entraîner les photos qui étaient éditées et séquentes par Zoe Leonard. Je pense que c'est important. Ce livre est vraiment son travail. Je suis heureux d'être associé avec ce volume, mais c'est vraiment le travail éditorial sur le site de Zoe. Et puis j'ai pu travailler sur le volume éditorial du texte volume. Je pense que c'est intéressant et important d'apprécier. Un autre problème est que les communications apparaissent dans trois langues. English et Spanish, qui sont les langues primaires qui sont parlées par la corde ripérienne, qui est le sujet d'un grand sens de Zoe's travail. Il y a aussi des langues indignes qui sont parlées. Mais aussi dans le livre, le langue français apparaît aussi. Nous allons parler un peu aujourd'hui de la nature du espace de langues dans le livre. La translation. Je veux ... Je pense que c'est un bon endroit pour commencer. Je pense que ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... d'un de les plus influenciaux pour les 4 de nous sur le stage c'est un livre qui s'appelle Borderlands la Frontera qui a été écrit par une femme nommée Gloria Anzaldua qui est maintenant connu en internet. Elle est de la Valle Rio Grande donc partie de l'arrivée qui est covérée en ce travail Elle est de plus en Californie, en l'Université de l'Université mais elle a maintenant adhéré je dirais même dans le monde. Elle n'est pas peut-être internationalement connu mais elle est connue dans différents places dans le monde comme un scholar de Borderlands et un theoriste comme une personne qui travaille en avance d'une théorie d'intersection d'intercommunal solidarité et aussi peut-être une sorte d'innovateur dans l'éthographie auto-ethnographie et elle a fait beaucoup de travail mais ce livre en particulier Borderlands la Frontera a été très important pour nous et je voudrais dire c'est un livre que j'ai rencontré quand j'étais une jeune fille et c'est vraiment comme un livre qui a contribué très signifiquement à ma formation en pensant sur ce que c'était pour être un Texan pour être une personne qui a vécu à l'arrière et tout ça j'ai personnellement senti que j'aie beaucoup dans ce livre je pense que individuellement chacun d'entre nous a eu un moment différent et un impact différent mais c'est signifiant pour tous nous et ce livre commence avec un acknowledgment très beau et donc nous voulons poursuivre Gloria Anzoldo dans l'espace et aussi poursuivre sa voix et en ce moment Catherine va partager les acknowledges pour tout le monde je ne vais pas lire tous les livres c'est deux pages et c'est peut-être peut-être un peu long mais je veux juste vous entendre et entendre les premières 4 sentences qui basent le livre et l'enquête et je pense que nous avons été pour quelques années avec la team de Zoe ils aussi donnent une foundation pour le travail qu'on a présenté aujourd'hui donc ça commence comme ça pour vous qui ont travaillé sur mon path et qui ont aidé à la fin quand j'étais quand j'étais tombé pour vous qui ont brûlé parmi moi sur la route jamais de me toucher encore pour vous qui n'a pas eu chance de rencontrer mais qui habitent bordelais similaire pour vous pour qui le bordelais est une territé merci je peux le lire si vous voulez je n'ai jamais fait oui je vais le lire encore s'il vous plaît donc pour vous qui ont travaillé sur mon path et qui ont aidé à la fin quand j'étais tombé pour vous qui ont brûlé parmi je suis désolé pour vous qui ont brûlé parmi sur la route jamais de me toucher encore pour vous qui n'a pas eu chance de rencontrer mais qui habitent bordelais similaire pour vous pour qui le bordelais est une territé et puis elle va remercier toutes les personnes qui ont aidé à construire un livre comme Team a dit avant vous avez besoin de gens pour travailler avec vous vous ne pouvez pas faire rien d'autre je pense et nous sommes profs de ça des profs de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie de la vie et surtout dans le contexte du livre, et peut-être un langage ou ce qui pourrait être considéré en un sens national, c'est vraiment le rôle de la translator, qui est une personne additionnelle qui peut porter ce livre à plus de nouveaux realms de la société. Et c'est des individus qui sont, pour quelques années je l'ai dit, et j'ai aussi écrit ça d'une autre personne, Mathieu Stadler, mais je suis intéressé en publication, pas en publiant, parce que c'est l'establishment des publics, des nouveaux publics, que le livre fait possible. C'est ce qui m'intéresse à tout de suite. Je pense que nous savons que notre travail vient de l'envers de la public, et il s'agit de sa propre structure sur les nouveaux publics, et les nouveaux publics sont faits dans cette interaction, les nouvelles relations sont faits, etc. Et je pense que c'est aussi intéressant, donc nous devons ignorer le rôle de la translation et l'endever de la nature sociale de nos projets. Mais aussi c'est important de penser que le livre, en itself, a cette technologie incroyable, qui a existé pour plusieurs centaines de ans, des formes de circulation, par qui ces formes bougent entre nous, et nous établissons de nouvelles formes de relation dans elles, ce qui est très puissant. Je suis un professeur du livre, pour sûr. En Zoldo's book, par exemple, j'ai eu un grand impact sur ma vie, mais surtout dans le contexte de ce travail, j'ai aussi écouté le fait que c'est souvent dit, que le premier succès populaire par un livre d'authors dans le trade du livre était les lettres de l'Europe du Mexique par le conquistador Hernan Cortes. Et donc, immédiatement, nous devons aussi reconnaître que le pouvoir du livre a un pouvoir de créer toutes les choses, simultanément, formes de subjetivité et de restriction, formes de hierarchisation, idées de la nature du monde et de comment ça existe pour nous et de comment ça existe pour nous. Et donc, je pense que c'est un bon endroit pour nous à commencer, parce que je sais que je travaille très intimately et pour la plus longue période de temps avec Soi, mais c'est certainement ces termes, les termes established par Anzoldo, au-delà des termes formes de législations qui sont dans la structure formale du livre et la structure sociale du livre qui ont fait possible pour que, quand nous travaillons, nous devons faire du travail, nous devons faire du travail, nous devons faire du travail simultanément. Et je pense que c'est un des places où nous voulons ouvrir la conversation et dire des questions autour de la translation, le rôle de la translation. Qu'est-ce qui est réveillé par la translation et peut-être qu'est-ce qui est élevé? Les translations qui ne l'existent pas et les sortes de législations de la technologie et de la structure formale du livre. Oui, c'est vrai. Et tout de suite il y a un problème, vous savez, parce que, d'ailleurs, Gloria Anzoldo son livre, et le titre n'est pas translé, donc c'est La Frontera. La Frontera. Et immédiatement, c'est une question pour nous. Vous savez, comment vous translatez cela? Comment vous translatez cela? Comment vous translatez quelqu'un qui utilise, comme elle dit, dans le livre, beaucoup, beaucoup de langues, pas seulement anglais et spanishes, mais beaucoup d'autres langues. Et elle s'occupe et c'est tellement intéressant. Je pensais, j'ai pensé, c'était pas bloqué, vous savez, pas seulement dialects mais aussi langues de la classe, langues du travail, langues du pesant. Les langues quelles, je veux dire, les langues qui apparaissent d'Anzoldo très rapidement. Les langues des femmes, je veux dire, toutes ces choses sont utilisées dans le livre, ainsi que beaucoup, beaucoup de discours, vous savez, c'est, pas seulement des mythes, c'est le langage de, c'est le langage de vivre dans le bordel, sur le bordel, dans le bordel, avec le bordel, avec, dans le bordel, je ne sais pas quoi utiliser. Et toutes ces, toutes ces mots, dans, dans, avec, c'est, en fait, comment le texte est fait. Ok, je veux parler rapidement de ce que je fais, qui je suis une critique et je dois dire que, depuis ce moment que j'ai lu, j'ai vécu un choc, parce que j'ai compris que le point unique de vue, un unique moyen de formuler des choses sur, sur l'art, a dû aller. Donc, oui, donc, toutes ces langages, bien sûr, comme vous l'avez dit, vous pouvez les construire, vous pouvez les construire dans la translation, mais vous les undo, aussi, en transseillant. Donc je pense que c'est, dans le milieu, de cette entreprise de ce que nous avons fait avec le texte, n'est-ce pas? Oui, je vais vous dire plus sur ce sujet, parce que je suis certain que, d'un point de vue, j'ai l'impression qu'on peut parler, mais, quand vous parlez de l'Enzaldua, vous trouvez que, comme vous l'avez dit, la nature de l'entreprise a changé ou n'a plus été possible pour vous. Est-ce que vous pouvez parler un peu plus sur ça? Oui, je pense que, bien sûr, ce qui était important pour moi, dans ce livre, dans ce livre, c'est que, soudain, je n'ai pas demandé d'écrire l'enzaldua. Enfin, non, c'est un plaisir et j'aime vraiment ça, mais, c'était en travaillant avec l'enzaldua, ou avec elle, ou sans elle. Je ne sais pas, tous ces mots sont là. Et, donc, on a changé d'écouter, d'abord. On a changé d'écouter, et on a changé d'écouter, et on a changé d'écouter trois pistes, autres pistes, on envoi un os unCS plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus en pensant sur l'anglais et votre bordel était, bien... En pensant sur le bordel, c'est en fait... Et c'est un bon moyen de parler de la translation aussi. Nous savions que nous travaillions sur cette région, cette territoire, cette rive. Et c'est toujours fasciné. Je pense que le monde entre Mexico et les États-Unis... Je suis désolé de dire Mexico, mais je ne devais pas. Entre les États-Unis et les États-Unis, c'est l'un des plus impressionnables du travail humain que j'ai vu. Je suis en train d'architecture, mais cette fois, je pense que c'est tout que je sais. Et ma question, ou mon désir, était de essayer de transmettre cette rive dans ma propre territoire, ma propre rive, ma vie quotidienne. Je vivais en Paris, c'est un petit temps très petit. Ce n'est pas similaire à la ville de Luxembourg, mais il y a des traits similaires. Je ne veux pas rire, c'est vrai. Nous avons aussi des lignes d'old walls que vous faites. Nous avons une rive, cross la ville. Nous avons des zones différentes, qui sont chaque zone de leur propre. Et vous vivez dans une ville mondiale, et nous habitons dans une ville mondiale. Nous faisons toujours ça, parce que nous avons cette periferie, qui crée toute la ville autour, et qui fait que c'est impossible pour les gens de l'épargne, d'imaginer et de protéger eux-mêmes de cette très petite ville, dans le sable, qui est à deux pas seulement. Et donc, j'ai commencé à penser à ça, à penser à comment Gloria Anzaldua fait ça et tient avec le bordel. Elle ne dit pas que c'est un bordel, elle a dit que c'est un bordel land, qui signifie que vous pouvez vivre sur ça, vous pouvez vivre avec ça, comme Elisabeth a dit, vous pouvez vivre aussi sans ça, mais c'est plus difficile d'inquiéter les bordels, je pense. Et donc, j'ai essayé de transmettre cette grande rive, cette grande territoire, cette grande culture, dans mon petit environnement. Et je pensais, si je vais dans l'histoire, il y a eu 7 rives autour de ma propre ville. Et ce n'est pas incroyable, parce que vous ne pensez jamais sur une base mondiale, vous allez autour, vous allez travailler, vous allez au public, vous allez voir le show, vous allez faire quelque chose, mais bien, ces rives existaient, et ce sont ces rives aussi. Et c'est ce que j'ai commencé à faire, c'est ce que j'ai commencé à penser, et c'est ce que j'ai commencé à transmettre Gloria. Et de le faire plus près de moi, c'est aussi de l'embrasser l'histoire de l'Union européenne, et la façon dont nous traitons les autres, les gens différents, les gens extérieurs, les gens migrants, et habituellement, nous traitons avec la rive, c'est très simple. Nous avons 11 rives, en fait, sur la territoire européenne, oh oui, l'Union, 11 rives, c'est à la fin de la rive, je pense, de l'Union européenne de la Bordeaux, c'est 1.200 km, et nous n'avons jamais parlé de ça, nous n'avons jamais dit que ce rive existait, excepté quand, comme 2 jours plus tard, des gens stupides et malade, se couvrent sur la frontière. J'espère que je suis clair, mais c'est ce que j'ai envie de dire au début. C'est utile, il y a quelque chose à faire avec la question de la location, c'est la Bordeaux, et on parle maintenant, presque immédiatement, d'une chose avec qui c'est qu'il y a des littéraux, des concrets, des abstracts, et des metaphoriques. Et il y a quelque chose qui est assez intéressant, qui arrive là, où nous pouvons des formes différentes qui multiplient. Et nous pouvons parler, Gloria Anzaldua dans la Bordeaux, sur la frontière, elle commence par dire très spécifiquement sur sa propre vie, et la histoire est là, la contexte, la histoire est là, et aussi les bords physiques, mais même dans ces acknowledges, elle dit, les deux autres qui ont à la Bordeaux sont similaires à moi. Et dans le contexte du livre, elle parle des formes de bord qui sont basées sur la sexualité, sur les gendres, ou toutes ces sortes de choses, et donc ce sont des... C'est une multiplicité de bordes que elle est intéressée, mais elle n'est pas... Mais c'est à la même fois, ce n'est pas de bouger strictement dans l'image, ou strictement dans l'image, c'est toujours toutes ces choses qu'elle veut. C'est jamais un binary. Oui. C'est important aussi. Vous voulez parler un petit peu sur comment vous deux arrivent à votre structure, parce que vous avez vos deux personnes avec une contribution, qui en même temps maintient une sortie de distingue tout le temps. Vous voulez parler un petit peu sur... Juste parce que j'aimerais savoir de nouveau. Oui. Nous avons commencé à penser sur quelque chose, comme 2 ans, 2 ans, 2 ans, 2 ans et demi, 2 ans et demi, beaucoup de moments de zoom avec Zoe, et beaucoup de pensées, et comme Elisabeth a dit, dès que nous savions que nous serions en train d'écrire la législation de Gloria Anzaldu de notre point de vue, nous avons commencé à lire, à lire en haut, nous avons commencé avec Bordelands, nous avons découvert des choses que nous n'avons pas écouté, même si nous avons écouté le livre peut-être 3 ou 4 fois, mais encore, il y avait encore des découvertes, des découvertes que nous avons faites. Et puis, nous sommes au Britannique, nous allons être invités à être sur les holidays, et nous avons commencé à rechercher de ce endroit, et à lire, à lire, à lire sur les bords et les frontières et la façon dont le texte fonctionne, sur l'EU, par exemple. Et quand nous revenons à Paris, j'étais prête à l'écrire, et j'ai commencé à partir du top, ce qui est pour moi la situation actuelle. Ce sont des mots que j'avais parlé quelques minutes auparavant. Et ça, c'était juste, sur les pages, et sur, et sur. Je suis retournée au passé de Paris et j'ai commencé à écrire la histoire des bords qui étaient là et qui ont disparu. Et pourquoi ils étaient là et pourquoi ils ont disparu. J'ai fini mon travail. Il y avait, cette fois, j'étais en train d'écrire son propre. Elle m'a parlé après, si elle veut. Et puis, quand nous avons tous été prêts, j'ai juste pris les deux textes et j'ai juste interprétenu. Et ça a travaillé magiquement. C'était juste un moment amusant, un moment amusant, une vision amusante. J'ai pris le premier paragraphe de mon texte et j'ai pris le premier paragraphe de Elisabeth et c'était parfait. Donc je suis allée et allée, et allée. Et la seule chose que nous avons fait, c'était d'avoir Romain et Italie, ce qui est assez simple. C'est assez, vous savez, la base. Et nous avons fait ça. Et puis, en français, bien sûr, parce qu'on n'est pas si bons en anglais qu'on peut faire directement. Mais ensuite, nous avons ces meetings avec Tim et nous avons utilisé un téléphone pour transmettre rapidement. Mais après que le téléphone a fait son travail, nous avons réveillé encore avec Tim. Et nous avons une autre discussion avec Tim, qui était sur est-ce vraiment ce que vous voulez me dire? Et donc, j'ai appris un peu plus de mots en anglais. Je suis heureux d'être utilisés encore. Et c'est ça, je pense. À un point, c'était terminé et nous étions, oh mon Dieu, c'est beau. Juste comme ça. Oui, pour moi, c'était de lire et puis, je ne sais pas comment faire autrement. Je ne sais pas comment faire. Je fais des connections. Donc, suddenly, je pensais à tous ces writers et ils sont des writers des femmes. Je dois dire, qui utilise beaucoup de mots? As-y-a-t-je-bas, et-t-elle-à-d'nain? Et puis, j'ai pensé ma propre histoire, qui est aussi une histoire d'aborderlance. Ma mère vient de l'Alsace. Et comme je le disais dans le texte, elle était born German. Et puis, elle était française. Et elle a parlé d'Ascien seulement. Et elle a went to French school et puis, quand la natrice a invité France, comme vous le savez, il y avait deux zones et elle a pu croiser. Je veux dire, il y a une longue histoire qui touche ma propre histoire. Et je pensais que, pour le lire sur Zaldu, j'ai pu donner une légitimité pour l'histoire. Je pense que c'était très important. Mais j'ai aussi pensé beaucoup sur la forme de la langue et la forme du livre. Et, à un point, c'est vraiment intéressant de voir comment Gloria Zaldua touche Monique Wittig dans sa âme pour constructer une forme. Monique Wittig s'appelle Le Cheval de Trois, Zaldua s'appelle Trojan Horse. C'est vraiment intéressant que ces deux mots, encore en français et en anglais, ne sont pas transmis, sont ici pour caractériser une forme. Une forme de quelque chose qui est dans le travail, qui n'est pas arrivé, qui n'est pas donné, qui n'est pas là-bas, mais vous devez travailler et vous devez faire le reader accompagner vous en travaillant aussi contre cette reading de la langue changeant. Et j'ai pensé que c'était vraiment important pour mon projet, pour notre projet, mais aussi pour le flow de la rive. On devait aller avec la rive, encore, vous savez. Et donc, effectivement, Catherine m'a juste dit que les deux formes ne sont pas donné par chance, peut-être, mais c'est aussi ce que la rive est qui va parfois à l'aide de sa rive et parfois à l'autre côté, ce qui est vu par les deux borders, parce que les deux borders sont, en fait, toujours très intéressantes. Et on peut encore et encore parler des valeurs symboliques qui sont donné à la rive à la gauche, à la rive, à la rive, etc. etc. Mais c'est vrai qu'il n'est pas vrai qu'on parle d'un bord en fait, il y a trois, comme c'est dit ce matin. Et c'est vrai, un bord est trois. Et c'est peut-être plus. Et donc, c'était pour moi un moyen pour aller dans le texte Gloriane Zanduah et ma admiration, parce que c'est toujours pour ça, admiration, l'amour. Et si je peux ajouter notre admiration pour la rive, hein? Pour dire... C'est pas grave. C'est vraiment grave. Dans notre texte. Voilà. Mais oui, on a parlé beaucoup de notre texte. Et je voulais ajouter quelque chose qui est aussi très, très intéressé par le fact that in the show, there is absolutely no captions, there is no walltext, there is nothing. And even more, the works themselves in their singularities are not titled. There is not even an untitled. Okay. And I think it's really important. And again, it's a question of language. And the language is all real to the river. Zoe was and Tim were making us notice that it's very asymmetrical. It's not a mirror because there are two words in Spanish and one three words in Anglo. And so there is this kind of asymmetry which is really important. One language has accents, the other doesn't. One language uses capital letters everywhere. You notice that's English in the titles and Spanish doesn't like French actually, I have to say. So all these things are really interesting. The only texts that are in the exhibition are the texts that are inside the river. But inside the photographs at least. But then to me, I've always read Al Rio to the river as two-folded. You know, it's approaching but it's also dedicated to the river. And I think this thing of dedication is super, super, super, super important. It's a third, again, it gets you into a third term. You know, because the confrontation between the artist and the work, between the reader, between the viewer and the work is mediated by this dedication, by the two, the river, by this complete and complex series of stories of discourses of languages that actually go to the river. Belong to the, not belong, go to the river. So I think it's really interesting. I think it's, I am very much interested by those. And it goes back, you know, to Roman inscriptions and inscriptions that are dedications, that are dedications to somebody who's absent, who's not there, you know, amongst us, but who's there, as a ghost, always there. I agree with that entirely. Do you want to talk, Zoe, about how you arrived at that title? And also, I mean, these are such important questions, which I mean, we walked through the show again today and all of these same terms or the absence of these terms returned to me so powerfully and generated all kinds of new feelings and thoughts about it. So I am, I'm absolutely interested, even though we've worked together for so long, about the nature of the title and also the absence of language both inside the book and in the context of the exhibition as installed. Yeah, I'd love to. I think I want to return to the title question in a second, but to tie together a few of the things we've been talking about here, I sort of want to go back to the nature of that invitation to the contributors, which in many ways echoes, sorry, which in many ways maybe echoes the invitation to you to join me and your willingness to do so. And as you said, it wasn't to write about my work. It wasn't to address me or address my work, but it's a question of alongside. And I think this ties into the idea of the captions and the lack of them and the lack of text. There is a kind of historic relationship between certain kinds of photography and the caption. And the caption is either above or below the photograph and it determines or over determines what you are drawn to see in that photograph. It says like this is what this photograph is of and so you ignore the qualities of the photograph because of the sort of authoritative nature of written language. And so I think the nature of that invitation echoes some of the linguistic decisions that we made. So I think that's yeah, it's will you would you like to stand alongside and look at this would you like to look at this situation, this place alongside me, alongside us from your own perspective from the perspective of your field like how do you think about this set of questions within your own field and there was no demand of how to what we didn't ask you to bring out a certain part of it was really like what's what occurs what do you see from where you stand. And so I think that brings me to this question about I think language and translation that you've also beautifully elucidated and kind of framed out the scaffolding that you've given about language and translation and the idea that I think the book when the two volumes are taken together is actually informed and together is actually in four languages it's in Spanish it's in English it's in French and it's in photography and the decision to take the captions away and to have there's no there's absolutely no text other than the pagination inside the body of the volume one the imit volume and you know at first I struggled with I don't want the reader to feel this is obtuse or unwelcoming I don't want the viewer to feel that it's like pretentious like ooh look at that like no words at all like I didn't want it you know I didn't want it to come across as like making things obscure for you and that decision sort of put pressure on the on the diagrammatic nature of the photograph or the diagrammatic potential of the photograph and so Tim and I I mean although we spoke about hundreds and hundreds of things as Tim's partner Caitlin Murray who's a the spectacular human being she's like you you and Zoe could talk for a thousand years and indeed we can as can we but one of the kind of topics we would return to over and over again was the question of poetics and linguistics which are about how how how form of language I'm so sorry it's not COVID I promise how form of language communicates as much as any individual kind of noun or verb the forms of arrangement the forms of phrasing the forms of grammar convey as much as as the meaning of any individual set of words and that photography also has a linguistics it has a lexicon and it has a grammar and there's framing scale there's grain density there's tone contrast warmth or coolness dark or lightness obscurity or clarity sharp focus short depth of field deep depth of field and so it has a linguistics of its own that is apparent to the eye if one takes the time to look and so part of getting the caption out of the way wasn't to say I don't you know I love reading it's not about not reading but about can these two or four languages be put into play alongside one another not above or below one another and so the alongsideedness of these two volumes was also a kind of it was a structural decision it was a conceptual decision and it's a political decision it's about the idea of alongsideedness and simultaneity rather than authority or dominance or kind of over determination and one more thing I wanted to say kind of related to that before we move on is this question of subjectivity and in written language subject position is expressed through conjugation through the tense you know I am you are et cetera and in photography subject position is revealed through framing where am I standing and by revealing the frame of where I'm standing I'm not showing you necessarily the world I'm showing you my view on to the world and by keeping like that black border around not cropping that out that's the reminder that it's just this singular subjectivity this world does exist not saying that world not real there is a reality there somewhere that is my view on to it and so the invitation was also formed saying you don't have to talk about my view what's your subject position in relation to the set of questions so we were it was yeah I don't know talking about subject positions Tim I want to know more about who you ask and what you ask and how you ask and the other contributors I mean we've talked a lot about us but you know I want to know more about the other contributors sure I guess in a sense I have to say one thing because it was so rich what you just said for instance one of the conversations that takes place in the book is between the Mexican state archaeology of Ina Cuauhila Cuauhila is one of the Mexican states which borders the river and another person who comes from Texas and they work in the same she works for a private institution in Texas and they work in the same area and one of their primary subjects is the rock art of the hunter gatherer people who lived up to between let's say 1500 and 4000 years ago in that part of the world and it's known as the Pecos River Canyon culture and they painted extraordinarily large and polychromatic works there of cosmological nature there are hundreds of them some of them are as much as 200 meters left to right and 12 meters top to bottom and one of the things they talk about is that it's quite interesting because one of them grew up in an indigenous village and has deep indigenous orientation as a person and also comes from Mexico in its modern sense after the Mexican revolution deliberately entered a period of what they call mestizaje which is a coming to terms with the indigenous nature of identity in that place the other comes from the United States which has an entirely different relationship to its indigenous past which of course is also its indigenous present a country that has deeply repressed the forms of violence which are ongoing against these communities nonetheless both of these archeologists approach this work in a larger discourse which believes that those paintings are meaningless at least at some point in the recent past people believed these paintings were described under the order of intoxication or drug use these are just like the beautiful wild squiggles of an intoxicated illegible people and then they are talking about in the nature of their work that is part of their role and this of course involves involving members of descendant communities and who of course now live in a variety of different places in the western hemisphere but who nonetheless have an ancestral relationship to these works to try to understand that these things speak not only that they did speak but that they do speak and this whole question of what kind of speech exists and how it exists whether it needs to be validated or not through forms of captioning or whatever it is and sometimes along the way people like archeologists or photographers they help us to understand the ways in which these things are already framed and to some extent to which they are already silenced I mean they are speaking anyway so I think that these quite interestingly that we have 27 27 or 28 or whatever contributors we actually share many of the same concerns because Caroline and Yuri who are the two archeologists I'm speaking about I don't really know what the relationship to photography is but the relationship to archeology really does share some terms quite importantly and in my sense you know with Zoe and I can talk for a thousand years we could also make a thousand books to be completely honest I think we find I find it exactly watch out yeah there might have been a lot of people in this book who I totally love they are not in the book but I totally love the work that contributed significantly to what I know about the river specifically about what I think about and feel about this work but in general I was simply thinking about I thought I had I said okay how do I find the forms of similarity which exist which might build coalition through which these people might speak back towards their existing communities and then but also in the shared space of the similarity speak to the other communities that are arriving in the space of this book quite frankly and to me it's I mean I'm a poet so of course I rely back on a poetic language and you know there's all kinds of for years especially after the invention of modernism and the question of novelty and modernism or whatever and which has so much to do with and the United States tradition and definitely an English language tradition making it new so there's a real emphasis especially in American poetics about production about making about building and you know taking apart that legacy within the context of un making to me because I feel like realistically what's actually happening this might be the fact that we're promoting the case of make new make new again and so forth realistically what's always happening is a form of making and un making and so I looked for those people who are working who I thought shared a concern for the river who also had a sense of making and un making the legacies which existed within their discourse or discipline right and so after that it's just a matter of my own sense of proximity to their work frankly it's just like there's a lot of other people who I definitely adore but I just thought I think this person or these people they might say something it could have been because of an existing conversation that we had on going but I thought these people may have something very distinctive to say because they have this sort of similar space like borderlands similar to mine you know sort of that sort of sense if I may I think one of the things that is also interesting aside from the individual voices the individual actual people who contributed is that the form of several of the contributions come in the form of a conversation and one is in the form of a kind of transcription of a local radio show that is Marfa Public Radio that Tim Johnson and his collaborator Primo Carrasco have this weekly radio show and it's a small town public radio station and people call in with dedications you know they will you play this song for you know my wife on the occasion of our anniversary or will you play this and so their dedications are present there and the idea of conversation and so the multiplicity and alongsideedness the kind of borderland similar to mine invitation I think there are suggestions of even more multiplicities within each contribution there's a photography conversation among four really brilliant thinkers writers scholars and in it they're kind of name checking all of these other scholars that may be well known in Mexico or Central America but that aren't very well known in the US and you know Tim and I are like come on I mean Tim actually wouldn't even let me read it till it was done but I was like yeah have them name everybody name again all the like indicate that this is all works of art you know come from a field and all books come out of a field and out of collaboration yeah out of social space like we thought a bibliographic conversation right because those of us who make stuff we talk about the other makers that we love or have loved historically and I mean I like books and I like a bibliography but I especially like hearing from people individuals who I also admire to what they're reading what they're listening to who are the photojournalists or who are the photo historians especially those who we don't know in European or US Anglo context right like I think that introducing that bibliography in the form of a conversation so as people can affirm oh I know that one I love that was on my list also all that kind of all that stuff to me is is so deeply enriching and I think the book can also contain that like we think strictly other probably the bibliography is the way and of course it is one way but there's so many ways in which the book might move this around there's so much more I mean it's for me it was like making a poem so it had a lot to do with feeling and there's certain that beyond some edge I just don't know how to explain it to be honest but these are the things that I definitely am looking for and definitely with the radio show cause I mean hey a single poem by a poet who I love been science since I've loved since I was a kid it's like one person one poem two people making a piece they wrote it separately but they found a way of weaving it together conversations of bibliography and conversation the radio show for me has a sort of deep meaning because it's like two people working together through who many other voices come into sounding right it's like and it's also it's highly circumstantial who might be listening that week it's another form of dedication to my friend in Ohina cause like I live in a small town very near the border it's in the nature of radio waves that you can hear the program in both countries even though the FCC the American sort of like legal radio legal entity wants to suggest that they can't like in fact they're they're supposed to try to shape the waiter away so they can that the raves do not pass into Mexico because that's in a foreign air space but nonetheless of course they can't they even tried over some years to reshape it but they couldn't entirely correct like come you know control it and so you have people calling from both sides of the border into the radio requesting songs or dedicating songs to other people and that sort of sense that you believe that they're there you think they might be listening cause you more or less know their routine but at the same time they may not be listening but you know others are you know the idea that I dedicate towards you and that at least you too can confirm it if you're not listening you know to me that carries it into another beyond another space so it does have something to do with trying to find these forms of application yeah exactly what we were saying so we are going back to the beginning it's going back to that idea of the public and the publication and all these exchanges are made available throughout this book and weaving this book together and I think it's incredible that actually makes me if I can jump in when the two of you were describing the writing of your text and how it came so easily and almost effortlessly in a certain way but I think in part I may be projecting here but I think it's because of the depth of ongoing conversation that had both expanded expanded and expanded out and then kind of refocused or cut away what's not necessary so that so much like we had been talking for years about I knew I wanted each of you to be part of this just from the nature of the conversation and our friendship over some more than 20 years now I don't know so many years so many years and I think we had all these different ideas like oh you'll write about The Sun and would you write about I can't even remember so many different ideas and even in that conversation until finally at one point maybe two, two and a half years ago it was like Anzaldua the legacy of Anzaldua and then the two of you the reading and the thinking and the talking and the conversing so a lot of the kind of process of creating material and testing out material and then editing it down and honing in on what the subjects really were it happened it was a whole process that did not begin with the day that you began writing right and so and I think that that's something that isn't I kind of bring it up because I think process is often really kind of left out you know artworks are received as finished and the whole all that comes behind and I think part of what the book also attempts to reveal in this kind of bibliographic nature and in the invitation and inclusion of multiple voices is that all of these different kinds of processes of thinking and working it's a work process it's not like one moment of inspiration these are like the working out of ideas and relationships over over time the nature of conversation the nature of dialogue and actually that reminds me of something Clarisse that we were speaking about yesterday as we were signing some books and about how this book we are also hoping and I think have I think it has been realized here is that it's a really genre defying kind of book there's one art historian there's one art writer in here and this also kudos to Kristoff and Mudam and Suzanne Carter the previous director here for being willing to do this publication no way resembles a catalog but it also doesn't really it's sort of like ok well there's poetry in here there's references to music and song there are archaeology there's conversation there's a place for journalism poetry and poetics in several languages so it was sort of there's something about wanting to indicate and by the indicating those many I think it indicates other many's too so that was kind of our does that I agree I think that's definitely an aspiration I think but talking also about the conversation I wanted to interfere because we didn't you didn't talk Zoyo and you didn't talk Tim actually about the printing process which I learned a little bit about and which was also something a whole other type of process because what is also incredible in that book is the layout by Joseph and it's the quality incredible quality of the prints I've never I have never seen a book like printed like that so I would like you to you know shortly make us encounter the process I was amazed when you told us you know Nicolas what kind of adventure it was I mean for me this is so fascinating that also translates do you want to repeat that I assume they're recording and I'd like to have your words if that's possible so maybe if you don't mind repeating what you've said thus far and continuing from there yeah thank you thank you so much for addressing it but I always think printing and contriving a book is also a process of translation really it is an understanding of I mean what do you do as a photographer what is like your idea as an artist to present or approach this subject and then how can we translate this into the medial conditions of a book and I think from the first moment when we understood we will be working in two volumes we were entirely thrilled because it is a visual body of work as you have been telling earlier and a visual language and then it is also an open conversation among people I very much like your word of dedication but I also think it's communication it's communication through all media and levels and we have it as two bodies in the book so for the visual part the really interesting question was Joseph did his job with you in contriving the layout also for the textbook but then the next question of translating is you worked on the prints with the best printers and photo printers in the world how do we translate this into offset and it yes we still print offset however the decisions are made in the pre-press so how do we get your prints to a quality level which is then can be printed by the offset printers which is funnily enough the smallest problem nowadays due to the technological development but the moment is between scanning and then working in the pre-press yes and actually if I could add to that I mean yeah Nicola your willingness and Hodja Kahn says willingness and Adam Jackman as the production manager on the book ah ah yeah the print quality or quality as a quality not as like better best but kind of the qualities of photographic printing are incredibly important to me as part of my love of that language the if one can think of this might be a helpful analogy that in analog photography you can think of the negative as a score and the print is the performance of that score so from that score you can make any number of different prints and so with these really beautiful printers that I've worked with now for years cause I don't really do my own work anymore but Laurent Girard who's just a he's you know he's a genius and a poet in the dark room who did all he did the person Laurent Girard printed all of the black and white photographs upstairs like one single person printed all of those photographs and our beautiful color printer Eric Weeks who we've also worked with for many years did the color photographs and Jocelyn Davis my studio manager who's here who we've also known each other and worked together for an impossibly long time Jocelyn helped with the whole kind of organization and the back and forth and there are rounds and rounds of kind of testing it out and you know well this does this you know let's try it again this isn't really it's not gritty enough for this one it's a little too gritty and Jocelyn sort of translating it back and forth to the various printers are normally fairly like rigorous demanding printing process was multiplied manifold by COVID and by the fact that the shutdown happened Laurent sold his house in New York and like moved to LA and we didn't even know that and so then when I came back when I was able to travel back from Texas you know five months later back to New York and was like okay Laurent we're ready to start he was like honey I'm not there anymore so there were all kinds of production things in the prints themselves and one of the things we spoke about was rather than scanning from the negatives which is you know cheaper and easier because it's a smaller service area but where you get the score not the performance or will you be willing to actually wait for our exhibition prints to be ready all of them so that then you can scan from the actual prints themselves which also means you have to have a larger flatbed scanner and not very many people have those Stadel notably does and it's why it's one of the many reasons but why Stadel books looks so damn good is that it's a kind of you know yeah and so on agreeing with that and then you didn't have one of the scanners in house design du regard this incredible house in Paris that Joseph the designer that we can't say enough about like the the I don't know the rigor the elegance the thoughtfulness the kind of beauty the tenderness of Joseph and his practice when the first round of proofs arrived Joseph was like he's made hundreds of books and he's like I've never I've never gone through a set of proofs and had to make so few corrections he was just like this is absolutely remarkable so where we kind of the book has a workman like look to it simplicity to it a straightforwardness to it and where the energy and the resources really went was to the real quality and the interior like we wanted really really good reproduction quality and then we wanted really complete editorial fullness and richness and the ability to arrive at it linguistically so that's like where the energies really went and we couldn't it had to be through a whole team that was agreeing to do that yeah I'm just going to say I'm not sure how much time we have but Joseph Logan did contributes considerably to these books to this book and these two volumes certainly within the context of the text volume through thinking about very specifically the space of language which is also of course a space of translation and I mean we could talk extensively about the placement of text and their physical relationship and where the titles I mean there are so many things to think through and he was absolutely a collaborator in that sense at the sort of theoretical aesthetic level he understood the questions that were being posed by the work by the individual contributors and we had to think through a kind of general approach that might be particularized that would still retain the particularities and I feel very proud of that to be honest of the solution we've arrived at and I think it has a lot to do with Joseph one of the interesting things is for instance in this book there is a poem that was written by a poet from Juarez which is on the south side of the river who now lives in El Paso Dolores Dorantes and she wrote a poem in a way towards an earlier body of photography by Zoe but which is still within the greater sense of this piece and Dolores thinking about her own poetic relationship to the river she wrote the poem in Spanish and in English and they don't translate each other it's like there's some in Spanish there's some in English, some in Spanish some in English generally speaking in this book we came up with a three column structure on the left and right and Spanish occurs more or less consistently over here on the left English on the right it goes through the entirety of the distribution and then a sequence of French so that the space of French is set aside it is another form of a long-sidedness but at a kind of distance but nonetheless with a form of respect but there are a couple of pieces including this one by Dolores which confound that idea even which I think is a very strong and good idea and Dolores's piece basically writes into and causes us to redirect that sense and so Dolores's piece has its own relationship to that structure and Joseph Logan is the kind of person who's excited by that and who knows how to respond who can build us with us a kind of consistent formal structure that also has the capacity to be shifted or shaped or contested in a way that contestation is specifically legible it's just there it is before you so I think that there are a number of moments like that throughout the text volume that's one of the most evident ones right after your piece I feel like your piece in a way introduces very significantly some of the terms that are going to be a play in the work and then it makes it possible that Dolores's work is a little bit more legible and after reading Dolores's I re-understand your piece and so that's how we sort of proceed so the sequencing and so forth which we get to think through together which has something to do with me responding to what you've done and knowing what you've done and knowing what Dolores has done and working with Zoe and Joseph through the actual kind of formal qualities but I feel very happy to have been able to work with people who wanted to work from the cover to the back cover you know every moment you know and I also I'm just gonna say quickly like I love I have so many books in my life and you know I've seen a lot of wonderful exhibitions there are so many books that I've read one time you know but I know like I think it's Nabokov or someone says reading is re-reading and I know that the love I wish I'm reading a poem is reading that poem over and over again I definitely feel like we made a book that you're gonna want to re-read I mean this is a sort of advertising statement but I do feel like in my heart I was like I don't want to read this sort of thing that's like an event and you read it and you move on I want to make a book that's a book in that sense that's a book that you kind of live with and when I read Dolores I want to go back and read your piece but also that I sense that I can live with that it's a work I work and think and live with so anyway I actually wanted to say were you about something I think very unique also about Joseph Logan as a collaborator his title is you know designer but he was so much more than that I've worked with him a number of other times so we had a like an experience of each other and an understanding of each other he's really quite remarkable about Joseph is before he starts thinking about design at all he wants to read every single text he wants to know even before he would think about designing the image volume he wants to read all of the material and then he asks for other related material he wants to understand the whole field in which this project sits before we began working on even the preliminary draft of the image volume he came to the studio and looked at like at that point we had maybe printed I don't know 400, 500 of the ensuing he spent the entire day and we looked at every single print together and he took snapshots and asked questions about kind of sequencing and scale and wanted to understand the formal questions that were I was working out inside the inside the photographic side of things and then he's thinking about form he's thinking about font histories he's thinking about and he does this all in a super casual un pretentious, really sweet way where you know I would then go to his studio and you know work off the screen and then like break for bond me sandwiches you know work on the screen some more but he he wants to he's thinking as you said Nikola about the translation he's thinking about the form of books and bookmaking and that he's not he's not trying to make a reproduction of the work or a representation of the work he's trying to realize a form that is actually like a version of the work in some way that really and is that is realized with a set of formal conventions so in the end the book kind of looks not designed because he knows the convention so well and his play with it is so nuanced but it was really like there are certain things he does that you're like oh that's the solution to that on the page and he kind of then like steps back and it's not there isn't like a I have this design idea I want to put forward it's actually like how do I find a form to put this work in the world great about that do you have anything else you'd like to say? a little thing to go back to translation you know the French philosopher Jacques Derrida he wrote a lot about translation and one of the words he used was the word the best to try to find a good translation is to try to find and he said it in French sa relevance so again he was using an English term relevance in French and for me it's it's a kind of conclusion to our talk I think it's really interesting and the idea of relevance relevance and also using an English term to talk about translation in the French text is really interesting and actually I think what's so important in many of these texts and in your editorial position what you were just describing with Dolores is like when the refusal to translate is makes meaning right like that so the it's not necessarily about a smoothness of translation it's actually when you do and when you don't and when that refusal becomes infused with meaning thank you very much it's great to be here on stage with a few guys thank you everyone in the audience for being here with us really appreciate it thank you are there questions? I'm happy to talk about it anytime you like email cell phone whenever you're ready thank you so much for this wonderful talk it was really fantastic again and I really want to give back to you the fact that I think there is it is a translation thing the German word Zogfight means in English I just pulled it out like 10 different possible translations but the one I want to say is carefulness and accuracy and I think the whole conversation really showed us how this quality is in your work and it is also your attitude towards your work and as it is in Timbs and you as a Norse and what I think is so incredible about the book production and I would also put this into the introduction of the exhibition is that everyone involved reacts on this attitude of yours so when we spoke with Marcos how he developed the tour it has to do with your point of view in the photographs and I think also at the Atelier du Régard and also at the printer the editors everyone involved from the book side every single person immediately understood this attitude and reacted on it you know there was no I don't care or sloppiness or we also have to do with that in our business but it was so clear and I think also Joseph reflects upon that in his design and this is something which is really very fascinating in the whole proceedings and I definitely want you to know what to do with you Merci