 You're welcome back to the Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our final conversation this morning would be an interview on the state of the nation with the leader of a fenifery, Pa Ayo Adebanjo. Take a listen. All right, our next conversation on the breakfast this morning would be about federalism and the state of the nation. And to join us to talk about this is Pa Ayo Adebanjo. He's the leader of our fenifery and we're in his home to discuss his vital issues in the country. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, sir. Good morning. All right, I want to first of all get a sense of a fenifery, the Euroban nation, or the Euroban state, and what the views are about Nigeria. Oh, I see. A view has already been drawn to anybody who cares to learn or to see. You want the other country on the federal system. And that has been our stance since 1950. Doesn't that view? Anything that or tells that is what we are opposed to. So are you of the opinion that Nigeria should remain as it is? True. Are you, is a fenifery of the opinion that Nigeria should remain as it is? Or is a fenifery supporting the agitators of the Euroban nation, of an Oduan nation? Don't mix it up. I'm very, very fought for the independence of this country under a federal system. Under a constitution agreed to by the founding fathers, Sardinia Oshoguto, Dr. Namda Zikwe, and she's a perfect man, you know. The agreement was made in London after a crisis in Nigeria. In 1953. Los Chando, the dead sexist state of the colonies, it was then only by literature. It became a lot. Some of all this did not go down after the crisis because the constitution, my first day was there, was a unitary war. So when there was a crisis, and there was the motion by Chief Anthony Nauru, a member of the action group, which is a fenifery, the Northern people were opposed. At that time, the Sardinia Oshoguto, who led the Northern party, said, you are going to leave from Nigeria because of the unitary form of government. That was the time we used the language, Arabic, and made the nine-point program of separation, which for a lot of us told them, you know, you can be together under a system that you can develop as a whole space, which is federalism. That was what they agreed to in London, following that crisis. It was at that constitutional conference, too, that the late Dr. Adam Laszikus himself became a federalist. Before that conference, Laszikus was a unitarist. And Oshoguto was telling him that Sardinia was opposed to and he said he was going to leave from Nigeria. But what you have to explain to him is that under a federal system, each religion, each ethnic group, each federal unit can develop at its own space with your culture, with your religion, with your ethnic fears, you can develop on your own. You don't need to absorb the other. It is that constitution they agreed to at independence. When they went to that conference, the Western region and the Eastern region were asking for self-government. But the Northern region said they were not ready. So the Western region and the Eastern region got their self-government in 1957. And the Northern region got their own in 1959. Because after that, they now give the whole country to the people in 1960. That is developing. And all the things that we are competing now, because do that, all the things that is causing confusion now, was said to know that that constitution, to the extent that each region and its constitution are written separately. We have autonomy on our education, on agriculture, local government, on security, on finance. With the limited function, give it to the center. And we are living in peace. Revenue allocation was based on derivation, 50%. Even when oil was discovered, it was still 50%. But when the military came, the military caution that is the cause of this crisis, they set aside that constitution and impose this present constitution. That is what our son is. He don't know about this constitution. When the military now said they are going back to the barracks in 1999, he said, OK, fine. They are going back to the barracks, send them back to the constitution, which was later. That was the beginning of the structure. At that time, Afafia and Nadego were talking of sovereign national conference. What does it mean? Nothing like that. They say, well, we are going back. Let's agree again on how to live together and why and what method we are going to use before we have an election. Absalom is still alive. Afafia is then insisted we are not going to take part in that election until we have a constitution we all agreed to. We are not going to have an election under this military imposed constitution. But this is the background of all the crisis we are having. And then Absalom say, oh no, I'm in a hurry. I can't wait when you have your similar regime. You can do that. I saw him a few days ago and I told him this is a problem. Because he couldn't wait for us to agree before this election that whatever since every government has said we are doing it, we are not doing it. And the crisis and the inequities that the military put is the one causing this crisis. The marginalization, the level new allocation which we now call the source control and all that is all embedded in this constitution. The only important part, being imposed by President Bowery is under this fraudulent constitution. That's why we describe it as a fraud. It's not a constitution. The Preamble said we are the people of Nigeria. Did we make it? Are we fed right? That's the question. Exactly, Pa Lipangel. We operate in a federal system of government, right? But you're saying that we're not really being a federal country. I'm saying that Nigeria as a country is a federal government. Is it possible? OK. So why is it that we're being called a federal government if these issues that basically define a federal system of government is not in place here? Because the way this is being run is not federal. The constitution imposed by the military in 1966 is what we are using now. It's unitary, although they call it federal. So you're saying that what we say we're a federal government? Therefore, it's a fraud. It's simply in the name. It's a fraud. That is the name. Don't mention it. Don't package. We are not a federal constitution. We are not a federal country. This constitution is unitary. And we didn't make it. And you say we're the people of Nigeria. We're the people of the federal republic. No. That is the essence of the fraud. And I'll be challenging. We'll be going back to you and I'll mention it. To come out and say, no. I said it's a fraud. I was expecting them to come and say that I am making a fake speech. Well, you are describing of what we are not. OK. So all the governments, the civilian governments that have come into power since 1999, why do you think it has been so difficult for all these governments to actually put a federal system of government in place in the country? Because they basically put them there. From Oba Sogno. They put him there. And Absalam said when he was hanging over to him that the constitution he was running to, he didn't know what was in there. Because he didn't show him. After that, you have said it openly before. When we said we wanted the sovereign national conference to decide that the constitution was going to leave him, Oba Sogno said then that there can be no two sovereigns because he has thought to, I said, no. We sovereigns didn't use where to. And the sovereignty we are talking of, which I must explain to you because people confuse it, it is not the sovereignty of the incumbent president. It is the sovereignty of the conference we are going to show them to decide on what we are going to leave together that whatever we decide at that conference is not subject to a amendment by anybody. Either subtraction or addition. The only thing that is subject to is referendum. That is sovereignty we are talking of. That, and I give an instance, that the 1979 constitution that Oba Sogno made, he added land use decree and all that. It's not in the constitution that they recommended. I said we don't want such a thing. This is what we agreed to at that conference where everybody's represented that we're going to operate. Okay, this reminds me of the 2014 national conference that former president Goodluck, Jonathan, held. You know, they gathered statesmen like yourself, people from several sectors, to deliberate and see what needed to be amended in the constitution. I happen to be a member of that conference. Fantastic. The, another question, another issue we're having really is, why is it that, you know, the president's ability, Jonathan's administration, could not implement, you know, the recommendations of- Yeah, no time. We don't let us go down. That is the excuse that the president government is saying. It was at the tail end. That it was he who set up the issue. And don't forget how he troubled this, the opposition gave him at that time. And when he was handed over to Bwari, he told him, this document is the most important document I'm handing over to you. Because I tell you, and I'm repeating, this country cannot get better composition of a conference than that conference. By quality, education, cutting across the board, the youth, the labor, the religion, everybody was represented. And we passed 600 resolutions unanimously. We had disagreement, but eventually we agreed, we agreed out. It's the most comprehensive, representative constitution this country can make. Judges were there, doctors were there, survey all this profession. And when we, when the Bwari came in and say, it was not going to be, I say, oh look, don't let us be stifled. If there is anything wrong, let us do this 2014 as it's working document. What is this wrong there that you like to be there? If you're there, let us put it. What is it that is there that you like, let us take it off and we move on? You wouldn't. Because, I repeat, he has a private agenda. What's his Bwari's agenda? I've said it, he wants to fulana in Nigeria. That's what they don't want to hear. And I prove it to you. I accuse him of fulanaization, he has nothing. You just keep quiet, and I say, why? Why we say the fulani has fulani? It was you who said no, they are not looking for fulani. You remember? He said they are fulani from Gaddafi. You remember, you have a press bank? Yes. Okay. To me, that is worse. That is the foreigners who we have now accused of invading this country, raping, murdering, and getting our farmers out of their land. And you are the commander-in-chief to protect life and property, to protect us against foreign evasion. These are now people you claim from your own, from that they are foreigners. Is it because they are foreigners entering the country where you are in charge of the customs, you are in charge of immigration? And even after entering, you can't arrest them because they are foreigners, and you are the commander-in-chief. And mind you, under this constitution, to show you how deceitful the government and propaganda is, they now say the governments should do. The governments are powerless. They have no control over the security of their state. They have no control over the police or any security apparatus. The government cannot call the commissioner of police in place without reference to Abuja. These people are armed. And when the people now say they want to protect themselves, they form a moteco, they say you can carry arms. They are the federal government though. And when the foreigners came, according to you, particularly in Nigeria, they drive the people there from their farm and they put down their flag. The government say they open a yard each. Oh, you are not in this country? I am. How did they now want to fuller us? They say fuller them from abroad. They are now in the country, put out the flag. And the governor of the plenary, they are here. And the president, who is the commander-in-chief, couldn't do anything. More so, even in Casino's own place, they are negotiating with bandits. The governors, they come and help me. And when they started the invasion from Southern Casino to Agatou, to Oman Kodi, and not to say, Mr. President, I know the people who are killing me, who are raping me. You remember? He went to him. And the man said, they said they are coming back and they are the owner. What did the president say? He said, go and make friends with your neighbors, with the people who are killing you. The man, he didn't know that he could sit aside at that time. The man was now telling us, let the governors go back. I'm only showing you how desistful this government is. You know the people are harmless. You ask them to protect themselves. When people are harmed, you disarm them. And when they're forming, I must tell you, you remember the attorney general, who's a lawyer? Unfortunately, I don't know how they get them. How they get the sassandis, they don't have a quota or anything. Now I'm saying those who are going to defend themselves should not carry arms. So when I say he has a agenda, that is my case. So also you're saying that Nigeria cannot be restructured under President Buhari's administration? By his action. It can be, if he's willing. If he's got a sass, even as I'm saying, that the judge country in the country should praise that God should entice us for him to do the needful. We want to stay together. And when we want to confuse the issue, he says those who have come from the structure he wants to separate the country. Why? And I repeat, and I'm saying this. I felt very, and myself, we have invested in Nigeria unity. More than Buhari, what I've been talking of, where the unity of this country, where Buhari was in the primary school. So that is why the passion I have for the unity of this country can't be compared with that of Buhari. We fought for it. We stayed together. And even in 1979, by Duguri, which is now the base of this Boko Haram, I spent a whole year there, comparing it for my party, the EPN. If you don't want to go to Nigeria, you should not go from the Western region to that place. And now can anybody who is a later convert to democracy, to the Nigeria we built, now tell me that we should go, when I say, let us have the constitution we had and it depends on what you want to bring the country. You have not invested in this country more than I said. So Pade Banjo, you raised a very important issue here when it comes to restructuring. Many people have different ideas of what restructuring is. So what is restructuring? Let me tell you. Okay. The government and the people are confusing. The structure is not the phenomenon. And I have said it. When you say restructuring, the structure to free-dialism is not the political philosophy. It is the system that, if you want to go back to this, to free-dialism, you can't be done by the system, can you? You have to restructure the system. That's all. It does not mean anything. When you say free-dialism, and people sometimes say, oh, some say true free-dialism, there's nothing like true free-dialism. The word true came into this lexicon because people are calling this unitary constitution federal. So those words are, they don't know what true free-dialism. It is just to dissociate it from the fake free-dialism you have to say you are having. It is not that there's true free-dialism, free-dialism, free-dialism. There's nobody world. There's no Nigerian factor. Elia, this month, I read one of your interviews in the papers. From? Elia this month on the Guardian newspaper. So you mentioned that, I'm gonna quote what you said, that if any new constitution is made on the basis of federalism, that there will be no more agitation. Certainly. So you're saying that the reason why we're having uprising, people saying they want to leave the country, secessionist agitations, the iPop, the Odua nation, this and that, is because of this constitution. Yes, I say this positively. Because if they understand what you are talking of, the federalism and the fake-dialism, it's not the autonomy these people are asking for. It is because they don't read the constitution or they don't understand it. And to tell you, but for the fact that people have a lot of respect for me, my calling of restructuring now is no longer popular here in my land. They want to break because, they say, bye-bye, these people you are talking to, they won't hear. Let them break away. They won't restructuring to have autonomy. There's no point. The same thing with the Americano. He says it's circumcised. But if they have the autonomy, they control their police, they control their local government, their education and everything. Only foreign affairs, commerce and shipping. We'll be the federal government. Nobody will complain about anything if they understand federalism to be that. These people, quiet, quiet. And I can tell them, no, we both sit down, don't need it. We have got our independence. And we have had it before. Before independence, this constitution that we had, a past H-E region is so autonomous. The constitution is made separately. They have their own foreign embassy in London. If they want to do anything, they don't have to go to the Collinear's Office or Federal Office. They go to their office. Western region had its own 15A Kensington Palace Garden in London. That is where I got married in 1960. So I know what I'm talking about. All the students want to go to university abroad. They don't go to the federal government. And when the Western region had government and the whole institute had scholarship, two other scholarships every year, it was our embassy in London that was looking for the university abroad, not the federal government. We are autonomous, agricultural, local government. We say what we like. And everything that we have not have looked like to the federal government, that's in the region. So what do they come up with? Why would they be clamoring for representation? So if we're saying that in this present administration, it's unlikely. If you're saying that it's unlikely for us to have a restructuring with this present administration, if it's going to confuse them, go back to federalism, that's the structure that is confusing them. They are making it, they are using it to confuse people. All we are saying, go back to federalism. And I'm saying, if you go back to federalism, without the amendment of Nigeria in the way it is done all over the world, there will be no agitation for the session. Okay, so now that that's yet to happen, we're yet to return to federalism, right? These agitations we're having from the Southeast, from the northern part of the country, from the Euroban nation, is that the answer? And what might these secessionist agitation, especially for this Odoan nation, what might it do to the country and our peace and unity? You are repeating the same thing. Where I say, the moment you have that federalism, that we die. Because they want autonomy, they want independence. I'm saying in the absence of that right now, there are people saying they want their own Euroban nation, right? Don't say in the absence of that. Don't talk about reaction. Talk about the action that causes the reaction. Why are they having their Odoan? Why do they want separation? I'm telling you. They say these governments oppressive them on their history. They want a government of their own. What do you mean by secession? They go down to their own. And I say you can have one Odoan secession. You can have one Odoan secession, one Odoan secession that is fedrack. Because you have the autonomy of anything that you want. That's what you want. Still talking about Nigeria, the president has been speaking about open grazing and how the southern governors reacted to this by banning open grazing in their states. But the reaction of the president is that grazing routes would be revitalized and basically opposing the stance of the 17 southern governors to open grazing. So what do you think the rationale is? You know, what the president might have been thinking when he opposed the ban on open grazing and said that the attorney general of the federation should bring back the gazette of the first republic and revitalize grazing routes in Nigeria. That was confirmed by accusation of him that doesn't want these countries to stay together. And then I've accused him before, you can understand his interest. He has 500 cows. That's why he's possessing the food enhancement. That's why he doesn't want anything to toy with them. That's why he said if you ask the food enhancement to go, he wants all the food and the people to go. Which is not true. It is the food and the house which has the proof to be raping, kidnapping, killing, depriving our farmers of their land because they want to go. We have no doubt they're going there to go as they employ many people in our country given employment and you are comparing that with the people who are selling their pass in the north. And I say okay, if there are people selling their pass and there are people in Europe who are just raping your women, kidnapping them, killing them, set them out. Don't generalize. We are not generalizing how to fool any. I have a lot of fooling friends. Thank goodness my personal friends, we share the same birthday. I cannot ask them to go after giving employment to my people. They develop my economy and the spare part people do not are developing your economy. Even if they leave you with software that you don't know how someone is selling their pass. So don't let them see yourself. We are specific about the fooling anyone in our bush, turning our bush into killing and kidnapping people. You don't address that, then it confuses you. You want to change the narrative. It's not right. That's why I say he has to permit again now. So what do you think, you know, beyond the Buhari administration, right? Because in 2023, someone else is stepping to power. After changing this constitution. Hopefully. So beyond the Buhari administration. May I repeat? Yoruba land will not stay in Nigeria under this constitution. Very clear. We will not be in Nigeria under this oppressive, imposed constitution. We say give all the constitution under which we agree to stay together. Why should that be a problem? One might do. I refer him to the founding fathers. Saldana, Azee Kwe, Awolo. And I pose the question. Is Buhari more intelligent than Saldana? Is he more full on it than Saldana? Or why is he opposed to what his father did? Or if that is so, tell us what is wrong with that constitution. And we say, all right, okay. If you don't want that, let us sit down and agree on one. You say no. Is this imposed constitution? You want the impose on one? It does not work. It's simple as it is. It does not work. Democracy is a government of the people by the people. It's not a government by the military. Muslim, Muslim section or something. And it is an empirical law. In any country with multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-cultural, you have a federal constitution. Where every unit we develop at social space, that is what we are asking for. Why should that be a problem to a fair-minded person? If that person is not, he's not having private agenda, as I say. Okay. Looking towards the next general elections, the next presidential elections in Nigeria, would you want or would the Afhenyferi want a Eurobacked president come 2023? My dear, by the time we settle the constitution, I will know where it should go. Not under the groupiest position. I don't support a constitution where a section of the country will be saying, well, I like you, come. It's a rotation something. No. By the time we make a constitution, we decide there how the constitution will go. It will be a constitutional right of every member of the unit of the federation. It is not going to be a favor. By section of the country, yes. I like you, you can have it. If you come to me, if you know. We are together because we want to enjoy the economy of scale. That's unity, that's an advantage in a big country. But you'll be a big country where you are a slave. We don't want the unity of the horse and the rider. Where a section of the country will be the rider and we'll be the horse. No. That is what Boaari is trying to do. It will not work. That's why I say it's number one enemy of Nigerian unity. To oppress a section of the country, you are going to be dictating what times we are going to go on. And it's going to be a question of which one advantage. Still on the 2023 question, who would the AFANIFERI as a group be looking to support for the presidency? For? For the presidency in 2023. After, when I know the constitution, we are down there. I don't give speculation. The day now, the Yoruba position is, where do I grow the constitution? Or do I turn to Israel? So if by 2023 there is no new constitution in Nigeria, what's going to happen? I don't think these countries survive 2023 in the Yoruba constitution. That's my view. Why do you think so? It's obvious. The people I'm suppressing in Yoruba are not for the door. I have no reason to supple them again. I'm only suppling them and I know, you don't have to succeed. You don't have to go. There is a constitution that can bind them together and everybody will be autonomous. And you say you don't want that. That's what you consider. But I can foresee how this will play out. Just wait. I mean, I can foresee how this agitation for Yoruba nation will play out just as it is in the southeast. Because the federal government will undoubtedly clamp down on those people and they will be bloodshed. I mean, isn't that the likelihood? Well, there you should draw the conclusion. If somebody says you want peace, those of us who are asking for socialism and socialism, we are the peaceful people. Those who are asking for a session, they are the people who are tired. We are not looking at that question. And we are telling the world, no. These people who want to break away by force, they don't come and others. There is a way to pacify them. Let's us agree on the constitution to live together. They will stop. Why does he not pursue that life? If he means well. If you are not accepting my constitution, that I will pounce on you. That's not fair. You are supposed to be the founder of the nation. You are beating me. You are going to make me cry. You are beating me. I said, no, this is what I want. The child is crying. The governor says, no, I want bread. Bread, bread. You give me bread, I stop. You don't give me bread, you give me stone. It's because you don't cry. He said, no, you don't cry. Who is the correct person? Okay, so my final question, Pa Adebanjo, will be about the recent interview that the president granted to a TV station, the recent interview that the president granted to a TV station, and his comments specifically about the Southeast. He said that, even in a tweet, Buhari said he would treat Nigerians in the way they understand, in reference to the Southeast, and talking about them saying that they were like a dot in a circle. What do you think about that? What I'm saying is I'm thinking about it. I have told you he doesn't like the Easterners. He doesn't want Nigeria to be together. He has the private agenda. That is why he's doing everything that we don't put together. And can you say, remember a unit of the federation who are very powerful, acting group in the federation, you treat them like that. And they are complaining that, no, you marginalize us, that every important position we are not there, you don't say, okay, what's your problem? In fact, if you want that, you take it down and put your ethnic group. All the security architecture in the country is dominated by the Nandanans. You know that? Who is in custom? Who is immigration? Who is the heterogeneous police? Chief of the Army, Chief of the Navy, Chief of the Air Force? That's the question. And all these years, people have been shouting, this is a problem, this is a problem. Which one, as he made an effort to rectify? He just turned the blind eye. He treated the police saying, what can you do? I have power of the sword in my hand. If you raise a word, I'm not to deal with you. That's what he said. Wow. So if you, you see, it may not be too good to be airing, but he's saying it's valid. Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable. It is not the qualifications, it's not anything. You are saying these people are violent, we are appealing to know they will be violent if you do this. And what you're asking to do, it's not unlawful. It's what we have heard before we come together. If you are sincere, if you are honest about this, why don't you agree to that? No, don't blame them, we will stop them. Because they don't come together. If so many people they get at all, all the, even right now, even serious, asking the governors to go and take care of the area. Why we not give the power over their security? If we do that today, all the things will stop. And even the federal police, let them be the, all federal police in this region be the indigest of that region. That is what, you see all the police and army are sent to this now, they are not the indigest of the place, because they are killing them like fouls. That's what I'm telling you, this is here. That is the weapon he has that's bossing off. He was a soldier there, you know what I'm saying? If they are federal soldiers, who are he sent as, they be killing themself. We have had the experience during Abacha, after the duty of something. Abacha kept many of us in Yoruba land. Not by the Yoruba soldiers of policemen. By the policemen and the UWA from the north. Under the guise of federal police. This is what people are opposing. This is what we are objecting to. Thank you very much Pa Ayo Adebanjo. It's been a very insightful time, speaking to you, hearing from you and expressing the views of the Afrinifera and Yoruba people as a concerned nation and the key issues of restructuring and federalism. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thank you. And that's it here on the conversation with Pa Ayo Adebanjo, the leader of the Afrinifera Social Political Group in Yoruba land. And we'll take a break here and return to continue the conversation on the breakfast.