 So I'm so excited to be interviewing Kelsey Wonderland, a licensed therapist who shares a healthier approach to our current dating environment. And I believe she's a contrarian like me and we'll find out during this interview. She views the outdated transactional dating model as being broken, that's my words, and offers a healthier ways to approach the dating process. So welcome, Kelsey. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. So I wanna dive into it. There's no need to give a big bio on you and that stuff. So I shared what I believe is the old model of how we approach dating and relationships versus a more contemporary model. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how that all comes about, if you will. Yeah. Yeah, I think the traditional model of dating is, right? Like there's a courting phase and there's gender roles that go along with that. And even the focus of what we pay attention to when we connect with people is, like what do you do for work? What do you do for fun? And those are not bad questions to ask, but the reason I got into all of this dating coaching is as a therapist what I learned is there's so many more important things to be aware of when choosing a partner in terms of long-term compatibility. So in my mind kind of the new way of dating is sure, I mean, for me, it's a little bit more egalitarian with taking turns and paying for dates and things like that. But that stuff isn't even as important in my mind as what you're focusing on in the connection to get to know somebody, you know? Like I'm like, who cares if he paid for the first date? Like what are his core values? Does this world in the same way as you, you know, things that we know really matter when it comes down to it for the long-term? So, you know, when I think of old model, and I want your opinion on this. So I think of the focus on chemistry, attraction and romance kind of as being the driver of the bus. More importantly, that chemistry indicates relationship success. And when I say new model, I'm talking primarily, and I suspect you agree with me, emotional maturity and relationship skills. Way far more heavily into the success of a relationship. Yep, 100%. Yes, yeah, that's the other big piece is like, if you, you know, traditionally it's like, if you find each other attractive, if you have fun together and you have things in common, then, and you have a spark, like then that that's it. That like, those are the checkboxes, right? And actually what we know is like almost none of those things really are what carries a relationship through the long-term, you know? So absolutely, but like nobody teaches us any of this stuff. Like we don't learn this in school, and that's why I do, I do now is, yeah, I just felt like I'm learning so much and I'm repeating myself so much in therapy sessions clients who are like, oh, that makes sense, right? And I learned these lessons the hard way myself being in the wrong relationships dozens of times. So yeah, nobody teaches us, but this is, these are the things that we should really be paying attention to more so, which is not to say, like date somebody you're not attracted to. I mean, attraction is a non-negotiable, but having them fit like a checklist of being taller than you or being your physical type is not necessary, actually, for you to find somebody attractive. Well, okay, so let me take this down a rabbit hole. I wasn't expecting, you know? So, let's differentiate between the way women view attraction and the way men view attraction because I think to some degree, we men need our equipment to be lifted, if you will. Okay, I hope we don't have to go straight. You know, to some degree, we need to feel physically attracted. And I've noticed that women have that same need as well. And yet, traditionally, I've heard that women tend to fall and men fall in love through their eyes and women tend to fall in love through their ears. But I feel like that's changing, like they're like, no, but I want the good-looking guy too. Mm-hmm, what are you talking about? Yeah, and I think like that's part of the culture too is like, I think men want more of that as well. I think that there's such a distinction like culturally for people to talk about like, you know, men only want one thing or whatever. But I mean, I think that there's, I always say to my female clients who are like, where are all like emotionally mature men? Like there's never been more of them than there are right now because mental health and therapy and personal growth is becoming so much more of a thing that I think men also are craving and have always really craved that emotional connection. But my opinion is that societally, we haven't promoted that, you know, like as a therapist I would get a lot of questions about like, you know, well, what's, is it like a biological thing, men and women? And I mean, what I could tell you over the years of seeing thousands of clients and of both genders is, you know, that men are not that actually different from women in my opinion that they want to, they really desire emotional connection, but they've been very socialized away from speaking that way or owning that. So it tends to be more about, or it seems like it's more about physical attraction. But when you get them one-on-one in a therapy room, you find out that like they do really want that connection. So, well, here's, okay. So since I suspect your audience is predominantly women, mine is predominantly women. And we talked about this beforehand. My demographic is midlife, which I say is after baby making years before retirement. So most of the women who follow me are 42 to 69 years of age. That's not an absolute. You know, one of their, I want to say their complaint. And I feel like it's a valid complaint that while I absolutely agree with you Kelsey that men want that emotional connection, but there's a big difference between emotional connection and emotional maturity. And let's go a step further, actual good relationship skills, because that's a whole nother category in itself. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is when I came across your Instagram, like what you promote is relationship skills. What you promote is emotional maturity. And I want to talk in a few minutes about some of your different blogs because I really appreciate it. Why is vetting before the honeymoon phase so important? Like why is that so important? Yeah, yeah. For many reasons. I think the main one right is from a time, energy and emotional attachment perspective. We really want to vet people. I actually tell my clients, I would love if you're using dating apps for you to be vetting people before you even really met them. And then of course, as you get to know someone in person, that continues on. But vetting someone before you even really meet up with them to say, is this even a viable partner for me? So on the dating apps, like let's not talk about like, what's your favorite coffee? I mean, you can, but like let's also make sure we're talking about what's really important to us, our deal breakers, our values, things like that. Because what I see a lot with my clients, which is like age 22, 70 actually, is they will get attached. And this used to be me too. We're attached to somebody before you even know that they're a viable partner for you because no one teaches us how to assess. And it's like, oh, we have fun together. We had an amazing date. They're funny, they're tall, whatever. And so we jump in when we don't do that vetting, then it's really hard to walk away or it's really hard to get over somebody when you realize that it's not gonna work out. So, okay, but here's the thing. Everyone will tell you every dating coach that's ever been on the planet and say, don't interview someone. By the way, for the record, I always say, interrogate them. I love that. Interrogating them. And I say that tongue-in-cheek, but asking deeper questions isn't sexy. It's not romantic. And yet, finding out when this person's last relationship ended, might not be such a bad question to find out if they just broke up 36 hours ago. Or, you know, what happened in your divorce only to find out, well, technically we're not divorced. The list goes on and on. So, would you be open to sharing some of the deeper questions you recommend talking about before, and by the way, really quickly, I'm in full agreement. Do this on the telephone before you meet them. Like, this is the time to interrogate them. I always tell people, like, it depends on your goal, right? I mean, if you're a casual dater and you don't mind to waste some time and emotional energy into someone who could be the wrong fit, then you don't have to use this strategy. But if you're, which most of my clients are, if you're taking dating seriously, you wanna find your person who's a good fit for you, then I actually recommend that you ask these questions, right, like right on the app, or right over the phone, whatever. So, my process is sort of twofold. It starts with you have to know your own core values, which is just what you find important in life, right? And I do find that, like, as we get older, that becomes more clear, and I think an easier to own for ourselves, but a lot of us have never even considered that. I hadn't even thought about what a core value was until I became a therapist. So, I walk people through, like, narrowing that down for yourself and also cutting out the noise of what other people tell you should be important to you or what's important to your family or your best friend, but what's really important to you in life and in partnership. And then once you narrow that down, you use those core values to curate your profile, first of all, so that those things are what you're comfortable with, like, but as much, I think, as you can say, in terms of deal-workers and core values in your profile, literally allows the dating sites to do the work for you, so that the wrong people are like, oh, my God, I don't want that. And they move along, you never deal with them. The people who are interested in the line, they will come flocking to you. So that's the first part, but then you also want to ask questions based on those values, too. And I call that a weed out question. So it's like a second layer of weeding out people, especially in online dating, so that you're only meeting up with people you feel like are already a pretty potentially good fit. So those questions are gonna depend on your values. So, like, for example, if you identify as a religious or a spiritual person, I do recommend asking that. Actually, if somebody asked the other day in my Instagram stories about how do you ask about that without coming off as insensitive or whatever you mean, you don't even know this person, right? So I always say you can go first. So you can say something like, I've realized that faith is really important to me, and I've also learned that that means different things to different people. So I always like to hear what that means to different people. For me, faith in my life looks like this. What about for you? That's a really easy way. I mean, it's not that easy. I get to say, what does that look like for you? It's a very emotionally mature way as well to approach something that could be sort of taboo I supposed to talk about and to demonstrate that you have those communication skills yourself as well. So that's one question you can ask, right? Another question sometimes is around like politics or family values, or I really encourage people to talk about gender roles in relationships. Like even like, who do you think should make more money the man or the woman? Like that's a great question to ask just to get a sense of gender roles because that comes up throughout the lifespan with somebody in a relationship of who does what, who does childcare or housekeeping or financial management of all so many different things. So many different things. It's a little different for those of us in midlife because we're not thinking about it from the raising family perspective. And by the way, just on a side note if they're just bringing this to your attention for those of us in midlife, it's more how do you blend two families together as probably one of the most challenging things. And I'm gonna go off the rails for a second. I wanna share something personal. So not by my choice, but I'm back in the dating marketplace. I had a significant relationship that ended six months ago. And I'm back in the dating marketplace and there was this one woman who swiped me on a dating profile I noticed and she wrote me but I never responded for whatever reason. Then I saw her on a different site and she looked at my photos, I looked at her. She looked at mine, I looked at hers but I already had some reservations because going back to what you said earlier I know myself and I know my values. So then I took it and so then she swiped me on bumble. I've said, okay, I'm gonna write her finally. And I wrote her a really nice message saying, hey, I just want you to know I've noticed you but I think these are the three things that we're misaligned with. That was a week ago and it's been crickets. And my point in sharing this is it wasn't sexy what I did, but it was honest, it was sincere. It was really doing due diligence and I asked it. I think this is where we could be misaligned. If I'm missing something, please let me know and it went crickets. So my point is I didn't have to waste time even on a telephone call. You know, when I say waste time. Yep, yeah, exactly. At the same time, I think a lot of people are frustrated because when they've got this viable prospect, by the way, I call it pre-qualifying your prospect. You call it weeding out. I used to be in sales. So that's what we did. We pre-qualified someone. Yeah. I think, why do you think it is? Or maybe let's discuss this for a moment. You've got this viable prospect. You're attracted to them, they check a few boxes. But you'll cling on that and they were missing so many of the things of shared values, lifestyles, blendable, emotional maturity. Why do we cling so much to a weak prospect versus even making effort for a strong prospect? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there's so many reasons that could go so deep psychologically in terms of abandonment wounds and chasing people who are not really available or not really a good fit. But I think a lot of it, too, is we attach to the idea of somebody, or again, we don't know that. You just don't know what you don't know. So you don't know that you're missing this entire other criteria for compatibility. So you really think that that's it. But yeah, I think you're speaking about when you know that that's not really, they don't fit a lot of things, but we still latch on because they made us feel good or they validated us or we're used to chasing emotional unavailability that feels comfortable, even though it's painful. There's so many reasons for that. And just, yeah, really attaching to the idea of somebody putting them on a pedestal in five seconds and then really dating them becomes more about making them like you instead of you thinking about if they're a good fit for you. That's what I'd like to see a lot. Yeah, no, no, I appreciate that. And just something occurs to me as you're saying that. You know, I grew up when I met women the old fashioned way. I'd go to a nightclub, get drunk and meet someone that way. Yeah. You know, with dating apps now, I think there's this false sense of abundance, number one. But there's also this plethora of abundance, meaning you get a lot of particularly women that can get a lot of attention. And in that, oftentimes, I think they overlook some really good people. I think those things happen. But I really do believe that dating apps in particular, and what I mean is the swiping versus the match.com. Oh, by the way, I'm gonna ask you this in a moment, how'd you met your husband? But I think dating apps have marginalized people so much more so than when the first dating apps came out where you had to go on your laptop and there was a lot more curated information. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good point. I think that there's so many of them at this point that, and this, I mean, this is a larger cultural thing too where we're inundated with information on our phones so we're not using it very intentionally. Like you said, where you pull out the laptop after you get home from work and you're excited to check your messages and you've been thinking about it all day. It's more like, oh, I'm standing in the grocery line and I have a second, let me swipe mindlessly and it's not very intentional. And then, yeah, there's a lot of, there could always be somebody else better for me out there and you don't have to like sneak behind the person you're kind of seeing and go out to the club to find out, you just sit on your couch or on the toilet and you can see is there anyone better? So I think, yeah, it's certainly changed dating. It has, I think that, yeah, I think that it's contributed to more like ghosting and bread crumbing and all these terms that are trendy now. But I also think that in the 80s and the 90s and the early 2000s, there was, these things still happened but I feel like they just, they weren't spoken about to the extent that they are now like the bread crumbing or the ghosting or like the guy who just never calls you back is sort of what it more was is my sort of understanding. But I think that, I think it certainly has changed the dating landscape. Yeah, when I think back to when I met my now ex-wife, it was a little bit different. By the way, I met her through a video dating service. Oh my God. I don't know if I've talked about this publicly too much but I actually knew her. And then when I went to this video dating service, I go, oh, I recognize her and we had a mutual friend. But I feel like back then, and maybe this was a cultural generational thing, I treated with women with I think a little bit more respect because they didn't seem so disposable. Like you had to work for it a little bit more in my generation, you had to walk up to a stranger, feel that uncomfortableness after them out, all those sort of things where now it's just swipe and it's like, hi, that's all you have to do. So I actually believe that the dating apps have created a rather disrespect of people or when I say marginalizing is discounting them and trivializing people because they're literally just like a number. When in real life, they were at least a real person. You felt more guilty ghosting them. You still ghost, we call it just never returning a phone call but I feel like that's become the norm unfortunately and it's something sad. Yeah, like it's depersonalized. Yes, exactly. You're like desensitized to swiping. By the way, I met my husband on Tinder in 2019. Yeah, I wanna know. Let's go down over. Okay, I wanna hear the 411, give us the 411. Well, it's funny because when I joined Tinder probably in like 2014 or 15, I remember getting, it's funny actually, I remember being on a girl's trip with my best friend and she showed me, oh, there's this thing called a dating app and you can use it and so we go on there and we're laying in our hotel bed and we're in Savannah, Georgia and I go, I get my first match and I'm like so excited and I'm messaging him or whatever and I show her and she goes, oh, I matched with him too and I was like, oh my God, I didn't consider that. And I was, it was such an odd experience to be like, wait, I'm chatting with him. What is he saying to you? Is he saying the same thing? So I joined Tinder back in those days and then I had several relationships that didn't work out as well and then I met my husband on Tinder in 2017. We were both on Bumble as well but we didn't match over there, which was odd. Well, Tinder gets a bad rap for being a hookup site, you know, I mean- It's so not anymore, it's so not. I mean, my main thing with it is they don't do the prompts and everything, right? So they, it's just, I think it's a little bit less intentional sometimes what you, the bios and stuff that you find on there but I like, I curated mine very specifically for my values and my husband messaged me like really excited message and all caps about like something that I had written there and then it was like, then we, we had great conversation because I gave him material in my profile to actually lead to a deeper conversation instead of like, I'm a dog person and I love iced coffee, you know? Yeah, and I've got to go skiing and snowboarding and this, I get exhausted when I see how athletic some people are. I'm like, I already got, I already feel my heart rate going up. So we'll go down this train track for a second. So from what I observed, and I, this is not anecdotal, anecdotal, this is my observation is 97 out of a hundred dating profiles I look at are a piece of shit. I'm sorry, I'm just going to be that blunt. They are so poorly done, whether it's every single photo sunglasses or pictures with 12 people in every photo and you can't figure them out or I saw one woman's profile, one photo of her, the sushi plate she ate, the picture of the Eiffel Tower, a coffee she drank and I'm like, and I've got to be honest with you, Kelsey. Maybe you can do some therapy on me. I get so angry. I'm like, are you that stupid? Like, and I recognize that that's my own issue but I'm like, it's almost pathetic the amount of effort somebody, and I'm talking about people that genuinely want a real relationship. Why do you think that happens? Why do I think you get frustrated or why do I think? Well, actually, by the way, do some therapy. I'll take some therapy on that. Yeah, I mean, we all have judgments, right? So it's good to be aware of. But yeah, I imagine that a lot of folks don't, I mean, a lot of folks don't even understand Instagram or Facebook still or like, and that's not like to shame anyone. It's just there's a lot of features. There's a lot of apps to choose from. There's a lot of different ways you could upload things like, or a lot of different things you could upload. There's no real instructions on some of these apps, I guess. So I guess I'm more inclined to say, I think they probably don't understand how it works or they go, oh, I should show them what I like, right? And just in my photos and maybe they think that's a real, actually unique strategy, you know, instead of typing it out. I guess, okay, and again, I'm being a little bit nitpicky here. And by the way, I fully own my judgment and I recognize, you know, where in my own life do I feel stupid or that sort of thing? I get the whole, I can do my own psycho analysis. And by the way, I just said that for fun. But I'm like, whether we like it or not, we are marketing ourselves. We may not like the idea we're marketing ourselves, but we're certainly, most humans are familiar with trying to get a job with a company they'd like to be with. So putting the best resume you could possibly put, to me, that's just logical. You know, that doesn't take a rocket scientist to get that and a dating profile isn't that hard to upload a photo and write some things about you. So I think there's a deeper ambivalence versus ignorance or a deeper, or maybe there's even like, if I put a shitty profile and I get rejected, well then it makes sense I got rejected. I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I think there is a lot of ambivalence with dating apps because of it's inundating and exhausting. So people delete them, they end up redownloading them. They don't feel inclined to put a lot of effort in because they feel they haven't got a lot of results. So I think that there's that. And then absolutely there's, I mean, there's people who've made, there's a lot of people I know who feel I only sincerely have one good photo of myself. So I would not dare try to show another photo when really if you and I looked at it we'd be like, all of these are just fine, you know, where you have multiple, but like the self-consciousness of putting yourself out there, absolutely, there can be a self-protective part of that. Okay, okay. I wanna come back to your husband for a moment if it's okay because I think you can have a good teaching lesson, but I actually wanna talk about some of your Instagram posts, okay? Okay, and for everyone, I got it, by the way, there'll be a link to go to Kelsey's website and her Instagram page. I highly recommend you following her, it's worth it. I follow her and I'm saying it's worth it to you. So, you're very welcome. And I love, this was one that I loved the most, seven red flags you thought were green flags. And you said, he's charming and chases you. Now, why is that a red flag? Yeah, yeah, so it can be a red flag, right? You know, for two reasons, that the charming is not, being charming is not a bad thing on its own, but it is often linked, as we know, to people who are manipulative or just quite surface level even, right? So I mean, you'll see there's a lot of people in the comments, oh my gosh, I guess that was me, that was my ex who was narcissistic or who loved bomb me. So there's that that it can lead to, but then the other piece I tell people is like, it's sort of one of two things. It's like, we could be on a fast track to a toxic relationship. Or, and I think more likely, more common is, we just are totally missing what a healthy development of a relationship looks like. To your point, like the unsexiness of like, hey, what are you about? And does this align with me? Or here's like the message that you sent to the woman. Here's some things that I see that maybe don't align for us. You know, what do you think about that? Like starting conversations like that versus I'm gonna chase you and I'm gonna be charming and try to woo you versus get to know you. So that's what I mean by that one. Yeah. The next one, actually, this is the one that made me fall in love with you, by the way. It's in the same, it's in that same category, red flag, or red flags that you thought were green flags. He won't let you pay for anything. Yeah. And let me tell you, I wanna hear your perspective first because I think I know where you're going. I haven't asked you this, but why is that a potential red flag? Yeah. That one really hits mainly towards that toxic relationship. So often intensity on the front end, in a good way, like, oh my gosh, he's like spoiling you and he's taking you everywhere and he's showering you with compliments and he won't let you pay for anything or lift a finger. It can turn into intensity on the back end in a bad way. It doesn't have to mean that it will, but certainly it can. And so elements of control that we wanna be aware of throughout the dating process include, I will not let you pay for anything, but that doesn't have to mean that that's what that is, but that also, I wanna control, oh, who are you talking to? Or where are you? Will you share your location with me very early on? Or wanting to control what you can or cannot wear or saying, that shirt's a little low cut for going out in public. That's, those are all big red flags of control. Yeah, I wanna share with you something why this resonates with me is that, and first off, I'm in full agreement insisting that I have to pay for everything. Well, that takes out any opportunity for generosity from the other person. Like, hey, I wanna treat you, I wanna spoil you. I'd like to show my appreciation. So that in and of itself could mean that this person can't receive someone's appreciation because they wanna be in control. But I'm gonna throw a little nugget out here. I think some men, and this isn't always the case where they insist on paying, that gives them permission to dump you whenever they want because I paid for everything. In other words, there's a psychological approach for those people of control is because I've been in control, I get to dump you whenever I want because I paid for it. Yeah, and that's an interesting one. And that made me think too of like, also I pay for everything and so you owe me something. Right, like either you owe me to stay until I say you can leave or you owe me sexual favors or whatever. Yeah, like it's just, it's an imbalance, right? Which if you both want that, that's okay. And you've spoken about that's a value for you or you're more traditional, that's okay. But when it's just like he's setting the rules, like he will not allow you to pay when you would like to, that becomes a problem. Yes, you know, my best friend is worth a hundred million dollars or my oldest friend, I should say. And I mean, when he's with us, he takes care of everything because he's got abundance. And yet when I offer to pay, he's like, he doesn't reject it, you know, he's like, but it's kind of an, and to some degree, and within his relationship, he pays for everything. And I'm sure if she offered, he's not gonna reject it. It's that control piece that we're really identifying. And while that might seem really attractive and might even seem sexy, well, he just pays for everything. He insists I pay for, he pays for everything. Be careful of that one. Well, I think we all want to feel taken care of, right? But a big thing that I've noticed with the women I work with in almost everything that I talk about with clients is me has been me. It's like we want to feel taken care of, but when we really think about what a healthy relationship is, is it's like, yes, if you have that kind of, somebody's like a massive breadwinner and it makes sense, sure. But like you're both taking care of yourselves emotionally and financially and physically. And then you're leaning on a partner as like a teammate. That's how I see relationships more so than like this toxic romanticism idea that especially a man is gonna swoop in and sweep you off your feet and take care of you and take care of everything. It's not really realistic, like from an emotional perspective. And I think sometimes when we desire that caretaking financially, it bleeds into other areas too. So a lot of what I teach in my primary program that people are in is like self validation and self soothing and self regulation and things emotionally that we need to learn to do for ourselves that we want to make sure we're not over relying on a partner to do that for us. Yeah. Well, kind of, so the title of the seven red flags you thought were green flags, you know, it's interesting. I did a blog recently how when we have sex too early, we can often turn red flags into green flags. In other words, a little bit different. Like in other words, because to some degree, and I'm guilty of this, I'm guilty everyone, objectivity goes out the roof sometimes the minute you're physically intimate with someone. So what are your thoughts on when to have physical intimacy? That's a great question. I get that so much. And I know there are some dating coaches who will say like they have a 12 day rule or something, you know, in my mind it's more, I always, I'm not so much about rigid timelines, but more so about like you learning what causes you to attach. And if that is a problem for you that you notice you're gonna attach when you start to engage physically, then you wanted to lay that until you know where this relationship is going and that you guys are on the same page and that you have formed an emotional connection first. However long that takes, it's however long that takes. But it's more about knowing yourself. For me at least, it's about knowing yourself really well, what causes you to attach, how to tell you're starting to attach and attune to that and implement the boundaries that you need to slow that down. Which may or may not include physical intimacy, you know? We can also attach with like staying up all night talking is something that some of my clients have done on like first or second dates with a guy and they're like, oh my gosh, we didn't even do anything. We just stayed up all night talking, it was amazing. And then that accelerated their attachment. And it's like, wait, why did that happen? Because we didn't, we weren't intimate but there's so many different forms of intimacy as you know. So yeah, I think it's for me it's a bigger conversation of many factors. Even just having somebody who's like a pen pal who you've met online and talked forever. I mean, absolutely you can attach having never even physically laid a hand on somebody. So, you know, just all of those things I encourage people to be aware of. Yeah, it's fascinating. I got addicted to the show 90 day fiance. Oh my God, me too. I stopped but years ago, oh my gosh, I used to watch it. And there was this one guy kind of, it was in the last season where he got attached to a woman who lived in Dominican Republic or something like that. And they never spoke on the phone, never video chatted. It was everything text messaging for four years. Wow. And he even flew out there to go see her and she didn't show up. And it turns out as they're doing the filming they find out he had been catfished. Yeah. I would say catfish is my other favorite. Yeah. I love that show. Oh, the show catfish. The show catfish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was painful for me to watch. I mean, sometimes that was just, but it seems to me particularly when there is distance, we rely on our devices for connection and communication and people can form huge attachments but even more so they can start giving money. This man was giving money to this woman or actually we found out later in the show it was an actual man. Yeah. And I'm here to say, I've always said this, it isn't real until you physically meet. Right. But gosh, get on a FaceTime if nothing else. Absolutely. Now I even tell people like if you're even in the same city, try to meet in the first couple of weeks from matching with somebody if you can and if you can't then just try not to have too much communication ahead of time just because you can form your own idea of this person, especially over text. If you're on the phone, that's one thing but when you get in person with someone, your nervous system is going to viscerally realize I don't know this person and yet you feel like you know them because you talked so much or you formed an idea of them and even like how their voice sounds if you never talked on the phone and you texted for like a month every day and then you met up, it's gonna feel a little more awkward because and it always is awkward. I think a little awkward meeting people, right? But especially if you're like, wait, we've connected and I've told you so many things about myself that are vulnerable and yet your nervous system will recognize this as a stranger when you very firstly eyes on them. That might go away in five minutes, who knows? But it can just really make it and then it distracts you from forming other connections sometimes. It's kind of a challenge though because I've spent hours on the phone with people and met them and what I appreciate about that is that there's a sense of familiarity. In other words, there's a sense of comfort and ease because when you're meeting a stranger especially if you have no communication whatsoever you know, you're starting from scratch whereas if there's a little bit of rapport built a little bit of familiarity at the same time and I wanna piggyback what you said I've gotten vulnerable with people only to meet them and never see them again and I felt like the walking out on the plank and the plank got pulled out from underneath me a little bit. Yeah. There's definitely a fine line to that. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so. I think there's no need to hangover is what I call it. Wait, say that again. Vulnerability hangover. Oh, I've never heard that. I love that. Yeah, I didn't come up with it. I don't remember where I heard it years and years ago but you know, you share something and even if it goes well I mean, let's say you share something on a date and then the next day you wake up and you're in your own bed by yourself and you go, oh God, was it okay that I shared that? You just have a little bit of a vulnerability hangover about being vulnerable, even if it went well. Wow, you know, I thank you. I wish now I knew who said that but I'm gonna. I know we could probably Google it but I don't actually know off the top of my head. Well, go check it out. I love that because I can speak from my own personal experience where I thought, oh, I wish I could have that five second role and pull it back into my mouth when I shared. That was maybe a little too personal and thankfully I haven't had anything that has come back to bite me. Okay, I've got more questions to ask you but now I wanna ask you, okay, so you met your husband on Tinder. I think, give us the 411 on the dating process between the two of you. Well, it was funny because I actually and, you know, some of them I hesitate to say this sometimes but I do share this. I was not looking for a relationship when I met him actually and I was very open about that. And he's sort of, I mean, he's just, he's great. He was so accepting of that and he unintentionally like reverse psychology because, you know, as soon as he didn't pressure me into that, I was like, and then we, you know, so we didn't have a traditional courting process. I mean, we went out for, actually he took me for a nice dinner. I did offer to split it with him. He was like, you're in grad school. I'm not gonna let you pay for this like nice sushi. You know, so that was nice. But we went out dancing afterwards and I met like two of his best friends because it was like, oh, they're just out for, at this dancing place. So, you know, it just sort of happened. Then we went to the gym together a lot. We were members of the same gym. And I was like, I sincerely would like to learn how to lift weights. Didn't enjoy it. Don't do that anymore. But he sort of taught me about that. And we actually, I used to watch The Bachelor and The Bachelorette a lot. So there was like an evening early on and in our, like maybe the first week or two of dating or seeing each other, you know, where I was like, oh, I'm watching The Bachelorette and you know, I was a grad student watching it on my laptop in my bed in like the attic space that I was renting by my school. And so he sent me like, he sent me a photo of that actually it's the couch that's right behind me, this big comfy couch and this big TV that he had in his apartment. And he was like, or you could come watch it here. And I was like, listen, let me just be very clear. Like my intention is to seriously watch it. And then I'm going home like that. Nothing else is gonna happen. But we actually, we started watching the season together and it led to all of these really amazing conversations about what do you think love means to you? Or what do you think? Like what does a healthy relationship look like to you? Because people on The Bachelor are just all over the place falling in love with somebody based on two conversations about their cat, you know? So yeah, so that's where we really, like I think we really unexpectedly started to realize how similarly we view relationships with like that lens of realism and emotional maturity versus like chemistry and spark and intoxicating romance and you know, stuff like that, which leads to our bigger shared value and worldview of like social constructivism is something that we both sort of just see the world in that way as in everything is socially constructed. Like we're married, but we're like marriage is a social construct. You know, like, you know, all of these. So that's just sort of it comes up in a lot of different ways in the ways that we view situations and challenges and ourselves. So yeah, we see we formed a connection and he's got great communication skills. So he said to me, you know, I was like spending a lot of time with him and like telling my mom about him and asking him to like help me move some furniture and things, but I was like, no, no, no, no, we're not in a relationship. And in hindsight, I was trying to protect myself because I had recently got out of something painful. So I was trying to, you know, tell myself, oh, as long as it's not a relationship like I can't get hurt, which is silly. And, you know, therapists and dating coaches are not immune to doing these kinds of cognitive distortions to protect ourselves. Yeah. But, you know, he called me out on it and said, listen, I just want to check in with you because you said you don't want a relationship but I noticed we're doing a lot of things that feel like we're in a relationship. And I said, no, I totally appreciate that. Don't want a relationship still. And he's like, okay, so I'm taking you at face value here, meaning we can see other people. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we both went out that weekend and we spent time separately and we both had experiences with other people. And we came back together on the Sunday of that weekend. And I was like, oh gosh, I've got to tell him I felt really bad even though I was allowed to do what I did. And so was he. And so we came back together and we both shared it very openly, like, hey, I had an experience with someone else. And that made me realize like, oh, I don't want to, I want to be exclusive actually. So that's sort of how we went. And then it was, you know, it was a few months later that we actually decided to move in together. So it went very quickly after that. Okay, so, well, okay, so would you say this is kind of the exception, not the role? Let me explain where I'm going here for a second. Because, you know, since you communicate with women as I do, you know, I think men oftentimes one of the biggest red flags of men, particularly in my age demographic, it says, I don't want anything serious, I just want something casual. And well, yes, those casual type of dynamics can turn into something. I think there's a deeper- Oh, you don't want to put that on that. No. Yeah. Not on that. And, you know, to the extent that you two are younger and you have, you know, you have a little bit more mileage ahead of you than some of mine. In other words, the days in front of you are longer than the days behind you versus my demographic. I think there's some significant red flags, one of which is this one. And I think part of it is why it's a red flag. Well, let me take it down this road. I understand the self-preservation and also that not necessarily creating a false promise for someone. Yet the same time, I say it's a red flag to say casual because I think when people spend too much time in casual, they're not really building something with somebody else. Am I making sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you want a more committed partnership, I would not spend any time with someone who's been up front that they don't. And that's why my other one that I think you even wanted to talk about, my other video that I put out recently was about, like, you know, seven things you're doing with a man that don't necessarily mean you're in a relationship. And people go crazy in the comment section, I get it, because we have really been socialized that like not to directly communicate, but it really is like, you don't want to operate on assumptions. So even if somebody just hasn't said what they're looking for, or especially if they've said they're not looking for something, but then they want to take you to dinner and they want to hang out at your place and they want to meet your family and whatever, you have to be having conversations along the way. And ideally like immediately up front about what you're both intending for and what you're looking for in general. And then as things continue between the two of you, like where is this going? Is another conversation you want to be having regularly? And you'll find that, you know, you want to check in about those things because it's setting up the relationship with healthy communication, but also because the kind of men who, one huge complaint of my people is like, we dated for three weeks or three months and he was great, he seemed all in and then he just realized he wasn't ready. Those guys are not going to like the check-ins along the way, right? So if you check in. No, I'm processing that one. I'm thinking of my own behavior in the very, in the past, oh, by the way. Yeah, yeah, like, you know, if I'm emotionally, oh, this is a whole other conversation. This is probably the number one complaint of my women that I work with is, and my followers is, you know, somebody who seems emotionally available and then turns out they're not. And of course people can change their minds, but when I look at these stories of what's happening it's really like, you know, we could have deep conversations about spirituality or the world or whatever, but when you really look at it, this man wasn't able to share vulnerably his own emotions, you know? Or like he went all in really quickly and it was very romantic, but it didn't have a lot of depth, you know? Or he was very avoidant, you know? So in that case with the avoidance, like they are not going to want to check in about the relationship and if you check in, you know, if you check in along the way and that pushes them away, that's just information for you. Like, thank you so much for showing me right now that this is probably not gonna work out, you know? Instead of like holding it back, hoping he feels the same, bringing it up when you're already attached. And then he's like, oh no, I don't want that. And then you're stuck and you're hurt. I think I confused the reason why I processed that was, I thought you meant just checking in like, hey, how you're doing versus check in on what's going on. Yes, a relationship. So just from the male perspective, you might find this interesting. I did a video on this differentiating between how a man shares how you make him feel. Okay, so put that in a box. So a man early on, oh my God, you feel so amazing. You're so wonderful. You're so this, you're so that. They're expressing how they feel being with you versus how they feel about you. There's, I've witnessed that in the early stages, we'll talk about how we feel being with you. So women hear that, it's like, oh, music to my ears. Those are emotions, those are feelings. But there's a difference when I say feeling about you, how I feel about you. Are you tracking where I'm going with this? I think so. I mean, as I understand that, I see it the same way if I'm understanding you correctly, which is like, I'm so smitten with you or like how we feel together or around you versus like articulating what is it that I think makes you a really good match with me? Exactly. What is it that I see in you on a deeper level? And that's my whole issue with courting, which I imagine is probably controversial, maybe even among your audience. But the courting is such historically a distraction from the deeper elements of true compatibility. And that's why, that's the only reason why I'm kind of a hater against courting. I am contrarian, but like it's, I mean, there's nothing wrong with courting if you're gonna match it with emotional depth and getting to know a person. And like, you can articulate as well, like you're paying the bill, you're holding the door and you can articulate what makes this woman an amazing match for you on a deeper level like core values, worldviews, identities, lifestyle, blending families, right? Great. But I found that those things don't typically go together. So we talked about this a little, you know, like the courting culture, I think doesn't lend itself amazingly well to really good compatibility assessment. Well, I think, okay, so, and this is a judgment I have. I think there are some women that operate from an entitled perspective. I deserve to be courted. I deserve to be showered with romance and affection and all these things. And that in and of itself reeks of entitlement, which is gonna blow up in your face later on down the road because I believe treat people the way you wanna be treated and treat the process like, I know this doesn't sound romantic, but two lawyers deciding to start a law firm together. Let's do it as two sovereign beings exploring, we can court each other for arguments. But courting, the idea of it is so based on romance, you know, so heavily based on attraction and romance that it takes away any objectivity, like I said earlier. So I think we share that same belief. Absolutely. As we're getting close to the end, I wanna bring up seven things you're doing with a man that doesn't necessarily mean you're in a relationship. And I love this because you, these are the seven things, sleeping together, texting daily, taking trips together, meeting family and friends, hanging out at each other places, going out to dinner, talking about the future. So that's made me think. I think men who might have a short-term mating strategy do all these things because they know from a woman's perspective, it sounds like it's a long-term mating strategy. So, but I would say that if men are doing these things, it looks like he's long-term. Why might it be a short-term? Why does that not necessarily mean you're in a relationship? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, what it comes down to is you just, you have to communicate, like I said, but the reality is humans love connection. And this is, I think, you know, I do think that men get a bad rap sometimes, you know, as in they only want one thing and, you know, like they're manipulating the situation or whatever. I mean, that does happen. That does happen. Not okay. But at the same time, like I find that women are not feeling amazingly empowered to just communicate that. And so the onus is just as much on the woman to say, hey, like if we're going to be physically intimate, you know, I, it's important to me to be exclusive or to say like I'm looking for a relationship or to initiate a relationship check in kind of how things are going. It's just as much on her as it is on the guy to say, oh, by the way, I don't want a relationship even though I'm doing these things with you. And it's so fascinating because it's like women's power has been externalized to men in so many ways, in my opinion. And I think that this is one of the ways that that like shows up in relationships is like, it's just, we don't even think about it. We like expect the man to again, like emotionally care take us by saying, oh, by the way, I don't want a relationship. So again, like women are very frustrated by this dynamic. But if you're not asking, like why is he going to set a boundary when it's working for him? And if nobody's, if everybody's walking on eggshells and nobody's communicating, it's fair game. It's fair game for people to be seeing other people, right? Or to be not wanting a relationship. And there are people who, you know, who do want to do all the things in a relationship and connect, but who don't want the obligation of prioritizing a partner. And I think that that's a valid preference, but it should be stated. And if it's not, you've got to ask. So this piggyback something I want to share with you, you're not prepared for this, but I wrote something about a year ago called the dating vows, okay? So it used to be wedding vows. People would recite something to each other, you know, in a wedding vow and make a commitment to one other. So I created the dating vows and I'd love your take on it. This will take me about 30 seconds to read. So it's basically, I always say, have you ever heard the phrase, women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of commitment? I didn't write that somebody else did. So this is something to do before you get to invest it in someone or even before having sex. You say, I, Jonathan or Kelsey, or, well, you're married, so, but you state your name, agree to explore the process of getting to know you with the intent to declare something serious within the next three to six months. I agree to be monogamous sexually while we're having regular sex together. I agree not to actively seek to meet and date others while we're in the dating process, including taking down our dating profiles. I agree to speak up if this isn't working for me versus pulling back, ghosting or disappearing. And I agree to invest regular time in the process of getting to know you, which looks like social activities, hobbies, mutual interests, traveling together, so forth and so on. Now, I love your take on it. First off, because I know that a lot of people would be turned off by doing this. So what are your thoughts on it? I love it. What part did you, what point in the relationship did you say you bring this to them? Well, I think before either physical intimacy or before you give your heart to somebody, which is kind of a tricky point, but it's certainly it's to get clarity and by making a vow, you have some agreements here. And I think 90% of men will say, I'm not going to do that because they know there's some other woman out there that'll give sex for free. What is it? They can buy the cow with that or they can get the milk without buying the cow kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I would love your take, yeah. I love it. I think that, I mean, I teach something very similar which is just agreements, like not necessarily written, but agreeing that, hey, like after a couple of dates, if we feel that we want to pursue this exclusively, that we just agree to let each other know if feelings change on either side. And to know that also like feelings can waiver without it, meaning we have to end this thing that we can talk about the process of doubts throughout getting to know somebody and like exactly what you sent that woman, again, that message, like something like that after a couple of months even or a couple of weeks of, this is an incompatibility that I noticed that I'm worried about. And what do you think about that, right? Sometimes just talking about that resolves it. And so like not keeping those things in and not ghosting, yeah, all of those things I totally agree with. Well, you know, it's more, and by the way, this is more of a guideline than a rule. The idea is to be grown up. Right. If you're going to be doing grown up things like sleeping together and spending time with someone and then have grown up conversations. And again, this is more of a guideline than it is a rule and you don't have to write it down. It's just verbally expressing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's like if you are seeing each other naked and you can't talk about the status of the relationship or where it's going, you're moving too fast. Yeah. You know, isn't it fascinating how I jokingly, I pull out duct tape by the way in my videos. It's, you know, it fascinates me how two people can be physically intimate with each other. And yet their voice is almost non-existent. This is the time when you're physically intimate, that you have permission. I mean, I think you'd agree. You're giving everybody permission to be absolutely authentic, vulnerable, transparent because without it, you can't build deep intimacy with someone. Exactly. Yeah, and I think, you know, physical intimacy really early on is often, it just bypasses emotional intimacy. And it makes attachment very complex. It makes it hard to walk away. So yeah, I think if you're somebody who's looking for, you know, a relationship with emotional depth, these are conversations you should be able to have with somebody. So I think your vows are even like what I would call like a weed out tool, you know? Like have this conversation and if they're not even available for a conversation like this, like they think that's weird or they think that's too much, they're probably not your person. You know, it's interesting. And I'll kind of come to a conclusion on this note. Many of my clients, and I suspect the same thing happens for your client out, is that actually by being more intentional, it creates a better relationship than those that go in kind of with the old traditional expectation. Men are supposed to be in charge and they're supposed to rule and all this kind of stuff and leave. When a woman gets more intentional with a man who really wants a significant relationship, it actually makes his job so much easier. Why is that? Oh, I love that you said that because, you know, I mean, what I hear a lot from men on the internet is like, oh my God, it's so hard for us. Like, do we court you or do we not? And I'm like, just get to know each other as two humans who cares about like who's the man and who's the woman. Or like, if you're having, if you're building these emotional building blocks together, yes, you're gonna have, you're gonna get to the kind of relationship that you want. It's so irrelevant whether he opened the door for you on the first date, you know, to be honest, if he can't go here emotionally, like, it's a no for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? It's been an absolute treat to have you, this has been something I've really looking forward to. Yeah, same. Kelsey Wonderland will be links below to check out her Instagram and her website. She obviously does some really great work. So I want, I invite you to check out her work and sign up to her program. I make no money from this, everyone, but I endorse this person because she thinks like me, which I appreciate. Thank you. Kelsey, thanks for being on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful. Yeah, thanks. All right, everyone.