 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today. I'm joined by mr. Chris Bennett of bop works drumsticks Chris welcome. Thank you Bart. Yeah, I'm honored to have you here I want to do more drumstick episodes for sure I've only done a few whereas, you know, you there's tons of snare drum and drum set episodes and I've gotten a lot of requests for them and this actually episode is a Request by a great friend of the show mr. Terry Klein who had nothing but good things to say about your sticks and The handwritten note he gets from you guys with the sticks and it's just cool to have a you know get a direct referral from a fan of the show we include $20 bills to people that we think are going to you know, give us a good good mention on the website Good, okay. I'm sure you're gonna get a lot of orders now. I hope so Yeah, thank you. So Chris you make reproductions of The signature sticks of some of the most legendary players like Art Blakey Malouis Formerly you've done ones for like Gene Krupa Shelley man Tell us about this. What's the story behind making these signature sticks? Then we'll get into each individual You know, what makes each one unique, but what's what's the story with it? Sure. Well, just a brief Comment I I love the big fat snare drum stuff. I just wanted to shout out to those guys. Yeah, it's a cool product What were we talking about? No, okay Okay, so I Was in music retail for a long time and People would bring stuff in on consignment a lot of times there'd be older drums And this was back in the before time before we're doing internet So your only contact with people would be like the not-so-modern drummer Newsletter that was published by John who did John Aldridge. Excuse me. He did a great service So I would just collect these sticks and go oh cool These are old sticks and I just put them in a box And then I had some help from some of my drummer friends who you know be on the road and they'd Pick up some sticks that they thought were cool and bring them back So it was kind of a backdoor thing and I just held on to them for a long time I'm not sure if that's answering your question totally, but that's Initially yet And then the story I'm gonna do a cartoon of this so the story is in like 2005. I was playing a gig at the elephant room which is the sort of the premier jazz club in Austin and I had just bought a Zuljin a case is it even a K? It was one that Bill Stewart was using it was K complex dry ride. There were two additions. I got the first one so I was all excited and it's like okay, I'm taking taking this to the gig and I took it down and set it up and started playing it and it was like The only thing I can describe it would be like it was akin to like geese honking or something It was like completely out of control. I couldn't play it. So I couldn't get a good sound to save my life But it did annoy the guitar player. So it wasn't totally lost That's good. So I you know, I was disillusioned and every drummer who's kind of into this is gonna know the search for the Ideal ride symbol usually the Tony Williams, you know famous for and more K so I'm thinking you know and Bill Stewart's phenomenal. So I just thought yeah, I'm gonna Play the symbol and then I'll move to New York and I'll I'll get Bill's gigs Yeah, that's how it works and that didn't quite happen. So anyway, I I went home the next day and Actually, I went home that night the next day. I just Said they're going I don't understand this So I went to my little box of drumsticks and I pulled out a pair of Lidwig Roy Haynes models from the 60s and Back in the day drummers would call those pencil sticks for obvious reason. So then I set up the again and I played it and It was like, you know, this choir of angels opens opens up and I and it's like, okay That's the deal Except for a bill who of course could play on anything with you know any stick But it occurred to me then that the smaller sticks Were being made these guys could have any stick they want made and Any size any length, I mean it wasn't it wasn't a big deal. So I Played the Roy Haynes and then I found a couple other sticks that were sort of similar and it was like, okay So now we're in the 50s in the 60s. We got these guys playing in jazz clubs Which are acoustically, you know, we're in basements or Right So the reason would be He had a lighter symbol and the symbols back then as drummers will know We're usually pretty thin and had a lot of wash because they just hadn't evolved, you know in zilgen and The case we're just kind of sticking with this uniform Thinness there was no heavy medium Right. So it made sense because then you're Playing with a lighter stick and you can pull more sounds out of the the symbol instead of the wash That you would get with the heavier stick That being said There were certainly guys that were using like 5a Style sticks But it would really depend on the gig and and if you're playing with a trio or a big band So that's kind of how that that Began I guess what's amazing to me before you go on is just that That importance of the drum stick to the sound of something it's kind of like Someone's drum sound is usually made up of like the stick the head choice even the rim choice It's just not like by symbols by drums by sticks. You're good to go I mean you kind of you learn that the more and you were obviously a seasoned drummer at that point and you were sort of learning that it's pretty fascinating that the The amount of detail of each little thing affects to get those signature sounds of guys like Amazing like Bill Stewart. Sure Pretty cool. So yeah kick carry on. Well, that's basically the idea. It's you know and Bill's kind of like a 7a So I just started going through the sticks and what I realized and what you said is of paramount importance, which is You know, and I've been guilty of this as well You go into the drum shop and you grab a test stick out of the bucket and you just go and play all the rides and you go This one's kind of cool Okay, yeah, I'll play this one. Okay, I'm gonna buy this one you buy the symbol and You you take it home and while you're driving home Somehow the molecular your molecular structure of the symbol changes and you get it either to the gig or at home And you play it with your sticks and it sounds nothing like yeah, but you're buying so what that does is it puts Drummers on a continual quest to get that ride symbol sound That we all love, you know the Tony Yep foreign Mars, so It's a vital importance because if you're changing your symbols, you're thinking getting rid of them Then it may not be the symbol right and you as you as you mentioned It's basically an extension of your your hand, right? And you're so you're just using a Connective object Right and then a lot of that has to come with your your technique and how you pull the sound out of the symbols But you know just the historic thing really Got me intrigued because we all love these drummers and it's sort of like well We knew that they played this drum set or this drum set or this drum set But you're playing jazz. You're playing the ride symbol a lot of the time or the hi-hats That's kind of how it came to fruition Well, that's I mean that's fascinating because it's just another Element of the world that we're in where it's like yeah, it's the you could even go It's just funny cuz like they have so many details to them It could be like, you know, they're what shoes they're wearing to play their bass drum pedal Are they barefoot? Are they wearing wing tips? It's just all these little things affect Everything which is just fascinating. So it's cool. You kind of found like a little corner to kind of You know get in and do something really special so what I would love to learn more about is maybe we go down through the signature sticks that you've made and Talk about the process of Recreating them including who what was the brand that originally made them? I mean you can start with whoever but I've got art Blakey first on my list Okay, how did how did you do it? well the Let me first of all preface this by saying Since we're a small company a lot of the other stick makers as well We use OEM manufacturers because to actually buy the tooling and the lays sure you're talking so this the sticks are made to our specs by Initially smaller wood shops that turned out sticks for like silver Fox and There's scorpion drumsticks Danny Anderson Makes a wonderful heavier stick he has those made by pro mark and we've just switched over to pro mark so when You'll basically send the stick or you'll send the specs and they'll run some test models Send them back to you and you kind of go that way So jumping back to your our Blakey question his primary association would have been with a gratch Probably through the early 50s. I'm guessing maybe a little later Until probably the late 70s so what we did is is take the the gratch sticks of our Blakey's and They were somewhat inconsistent. Let's let's kind of So what we did as well as the Mel Lewis we take the sticks five or six sticks do the Micrometer stuff and the taper and how long the tip was tip to shoulder how the back was shaped most sticks now are rounded and Not in the back, but some of the older sticks would be just kind of cut off It's kind of a square and so we would all just try and duplicate that exactly and There's your stick. Yes, so interesting So that was actually our first signature stick One of our sons Takashi Blakey who's a lawyer in New York City has the art Blakey Foundation very cool guy gave us, you know the Authorization to go ahead and do that so Yeah, that's how you find interesting stories that normally don't make it You know to print or you know, there's a lot of stuff floating around out there People are playing arts drum sets and his symbols without even knowing it That's cool. A lot of he had a rather large family and some of them Got ahold of his drums after he passed and you know like pond at them. Hmm. So That's kind of an interesting Interesting thing. So that's Takashi told me that so it's just kind of interesting because every drummer wonders What happened to the stuff, you know? Yeah, I've had some episode kind of suggestions about that what happened to you know X and Y drummers gear after they passed away and it's it's one of those things where it's Who do I talk to about that if because if I could find that person then that would kind of answer the question for everyone I think a lot of people are looking and I can't even remember the drummer Maybe it was like Keith Moon or one of these people where I'm sure they're in museums and stuff But so anyway, that that's fascinating and I know we'll probably talk about it more later with the you know discontinued sticks that you're no longer making but it's it's interesting to me about how you need to go to the proper avenues and Talk with the estate of the drummers because if you don't then that's just not right and that's you know That's Forgery, I guess that's not the right word. That's using their you know dead relatives name to make money which obviously you're not trying to do so Yeah, now What can you describe Art Blakey's stick a little bit for us? I think you did a little bit But was it a what how would you describe it size-wise type of wood all that stuff? These are all hickory Which was sort of the the common Word I think that you know it was plentiful and they would use second-growth hickory And art stick is just kind of a normal looking drumstick. The tip is kind of a little bit triangular If anybody wants to look at the sticks You know, they can just do a model comparison And I will mention also that our Facebook page the Bop Works page I've uploaded a ton of vintage ads and vintage articles Just for you know drum history nerds because now thanks to the Modern communications we know that there are a lot of them out there. So yeah arts would be like a 5a Yeah, there's one and As far as I can tell well the makers who they used to manufacture their sticks again Gretch used Capella, which is a Company in New Jersey to do a lot of their sticks in the 50s and 60s That doesn't mean There weren't other people making them sure right So it's it's kind of fuzzy. So if we were to take the Sticks you often times you'd get the art Blakey sticks they would come in Little plastic bags, which is actually what ours do we just trying to Replicate that so they come in plastic bags and you can look At the ones that we haven't opened and you can see that there's a difference in length There may be like an 16th of an inch difference. There might the tip might be slightly different All those things which would drive everyone crazy Nowadays, it was just sort of standard for a lot of the companies and and Aside from that would be Fred and Diana Gretch, I don't know if it's Diana or Diana Gretch. It's Diana. Diana. We're at a Nam show here in Austin and they had a Q&A with those two and so we went into the little You know kind of lecture room and there were surprisingly few people there and I was able at least to raise my hand and go Something along these lines of well, Mr. Gretch. Thank you very much for being here. I'm really interested in your drumsticks manufacturing and sourcing from say the 50s to the 60s and Fred goes Well, that's a that's a interesting question That's something I was very involved in And we had a hard time getting wood long pause and That was it. Oh Okay Yeah, and so I saw the Gretch rep the next day and he goes Yeah, you probably didn't get all you needed out of that So that's kind of we don't really know who was manufacturing There's six at what time period but yeah, it's interesting and you know, I think it's just kind of a neat You know look in that time frame when The company like Art Blakey is obviously very famously a Gretch player And it just kind of made sense that he would play Gretch drumsticks Whereas nowadays it's almost like That doesn't happen. It's like everyone obviously There's the pro marks and the Vic Firth's and there's the big player the big stick companies a lot of people play But it's kind of been like segmented more where you know Obviously Zuljan still makes sticks, but they're with Vic Firth and stuff You know what I mean though where like yeah, yeah, like I'm playing Vic It almost seemed like an afterthought of like I don't whatever just give me the sticks Gretch makes them great I'll play them cool. They're not totally consistent. Well, it is what it is I guess it was just a sign of the times of like less computer perfect Things but it's just neat that it was all you're kind of all in one Well, because even Gretch would sell symbols and things like that because I guess Gretch had some Zuljan connections with the There was lawsuits there, but it's just a different it's a different era for sure. They did Gretch handle the K mm-hmm line at that time and You know, I'm I'm pretty much telling history that everybody knows but I'm trying to eat up time on this podcast too Not everyone knows it. I always say don't take it for granted. There's a lot of young drummers Or you know early drummers where you know, that's and be hey I like re-hearing things that I already know so go for it well, so In The the old days right and so a lot of us came up in you know, baby boomers 60 70s and if you were living in a small town or a smaller You know rural area and we're lucky enough to have a music store Then they'd have like a you know maybe a two-foot-by-four-foot stick display and Depending on what they had in there whether it was a slingerland or Capella or Ludwig you basically would just go in there and go yeah, these look kind of cool and you just buy the sticks and If you're an experienced drummer and you were like hip you would at least roll them on the counter. Yep But I never I Don't learn that for ten years. So it was just kind of yeah, these are work. I like these cool Oh, I haven't tried these. I'll try these. Oh, Dino Dinelli front with the rascals. Okay, cool Or you buy a symbol and you just go and oh Oh, I need a crash rod. There's one. Okay. I'll buy that. Yeah, so it wasn't his big a deal I know that the pros in you know, New York and LA everybody Was kind of a head on that but it still wasn't a big deal and no one really cared what sticks Those you know the greats played because they were all more interested in the the symbols and the drums So it was just kind of like yeah, yeah, you need sticks to play those and I think the importance of That kind of came to the fore when you got guys like Vic first or pro mark was wet Before Vic, I think they were early 60s. I'm guessing I've done an episode on Vic Firth There isn't one on pro mark yet and Vader I'll do but Yeah refer to that people can refer to that episode. I kind of forget the exact timeline, but um, you know, that's just interesting It's like I feel like we've become more and more detail focused over time, which is good But there's something kind of like Nice, I don't know if that's the right word or like Uh like Nostalgic about just kind of like yeah, give me sticks whatever and like a guy His snare is sitting on like a chair because he didn't have a snare stand and he's just got to do There's an old picture of my grandpa playing where like I like a couple pictures where he didn't have a hi-hat stand It was like 1957 mm-hmm and his bass drum had a cinder block in front of it And it's just like and there was a guy playing a clarinet and I'm thinking like boy that that You know, I hope it sounded good, but just a clarinet and a bass drum and a snare. It's like I don't know about About that, but it's like it's just fun. Um It's just cool to see the evolution, you know about not caring so much about every little detail Every little thing. It's just a different uh era that's kind of Very nostalgic Well, and a lot of those guys You can find pictures of them like the joe jones Uh springs to mind Right as he was joining or right before joined bassy A lot of those guys were just playing these ratty drum sets You know and it it's yeah, so then it has nothing to do With what the guy's playing then it's it all comes back to your touch and we all know Joe jones was kind of the master of the hi-hat and So it's just kind of interesting. Alan Dawson in an interview Scott k fish who used to write for Modern drummer and has a little kind of website that you Might want to check out. He's going to interviews that he did. He was talking with alan dawson and First question he asked him was so You know when you're coming up, you know, did you guys like Pay attention to symbols or you know, if you're into joe jones Did you want to get a drum set like him or And you know dawson just goes no None of us cared about that stuff. We were more interested in the sound We wanted to get that sound. We didn't really go to the the brand name and The symbol or drums because these guys were getting an amazing sound And that's what they wanted to get and so As opposed to drum Thinking drums or symbols will give you the sound If that if that makes sense it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's it's uh Plus there's no internet. There's no You know, you Would be listening to the radio you'd be looking at like Downbeat magazine and that's how you'd get these pictures, but it's obviously different than now where it's like Oh, what was uh Art Blakey playing, you know type type type. Oh, there it is. Cool. Let me try and you know I can you can now get that same kind of drum set advantage drum set and have it delivered, you know I'm sure it's expensive and it's vintage obviously, but um, it's just different but Yeah, that's that's a great point and Uh, let's jump over quickly just because I want to talk about mel lewis a little bit And then we'll go to your older kind of models gene and shelly. Um, who were both you know just Icons in the drumming world, so I'm interested in that too, but um How did you get them? I know there's the estate and all that stuff. How did it work with mel lewis? The same thing mel's wife doris sakalov had Two daughters so we kind of moved Through them and got the You know the estate and of course When things are working correctly and when we have Enough six Then there's a Licensing fee so they get a portion Of the fee. Uh, shelly man's wife flip who I think is like 99 Wow, uh and is still dancing She sent me a couple of shelly sticks. Uh, I think one was a pearl So we just took one of those and did it. Um but her Request was that all the proceeds go to the la jazz I'm gonna get this wrong la jazz foundation Which nice up and coming. Yeah, so There have been a few glitches where we've been down Uh, uh down production wise and have kind of Had a closed shop In the late 2000s. So some of that stuff gets Pulled around and Sometimes these people move etc. Etc. But they seem all You know willing to answer Whatever questions Like tukashi blakie if you the, uh, hollywood drum shop pro percussion, you know Bobby Eggers Guys that are working there now. They'll tell you pretty much anything you want to know About that because they've been there since the 60s. So, you know, you know, you know, the rock guys Procaro and Keltner everybody would come in and hang, you know, because that's how you got your information and You know, hey man, did you check these out and Right. So drum. Yes drum shops were like little communities And uh, it was kind of a cool thing I wanted to ask you to before we move on because I've never heard this term And it's probably something where everyone's going this is obvious. We all know this but I've never heard it You said before second growth hickory. What is second growth? When hickory's harvested and it grows back They're calling that second growth, which is kind of confusing It's like the The tree has or the wood is mutated or something. So it's kind of a Standard practice Is it stronger or is it what okay it is? Yeah basically They just think it it holds up better and So it's regrown after a timber harvest and then they wait a lot For the next batch of trees to come to fruition And That's basically it. Yeah, it's just more mature like it's it's second round. Okay. That's cool. I I've never heard of that term Now, you know as much as I do. Let's move forward here and talk about The man that most people love gene krupa How did that go down? I know you mentioned before we were recording that You did make them and then there were some estate things which I know goes back and forth with all these guys Um, what's the story with gene and his stick? his second wife was Pat basically Controlled the estate so it had to go through her um, this the slingolin Sticks that were going after were the ones from the 40s because that's One of the more popular periods for him And the thing was when we when bop works went down Uh late 2000s, I think I mentioned Uh, we just kind of lost the connection and I wasn't really going to go Through that again. So um our 40s swing classic Is the exact Same thing. It's it's the krupa stick. We just got you had to call it 40 swing because it was I don't know. Hopefully people would make that that connection. I guess Yeah, but well, that's a little bit of an insider scoop here where you know, if you want the krupa stick that's what it is And that's uh, what would you describe that stick as like lengthwise size? You know the tip and all that stuff They were basically almost like Five a's ish. They're about maybe 16 inches long So they're actually just kind of your standard drum stick. It's it's interesting How little Things have changed in regard to that Can I ask you like a chicken versus the egg kind of question? did Was he one of the guys who kind of pioneered in making it a standard drum stick or at that point Was it already kind of like the five a 16 inches? Was that already kind of a standard or did did it become a standard? after guys like him were using it I Think if no, I don't think I think prior to that. I mean, we're looking all the way back into You know a hundred years ago when right around when the The talky pictures came in And if you go back and you look at some of the earlier catalogs or I think a lot of his drum history buffs have Copies or archives or that stuff you can you can pretty much see in the 20s and 30s. It's just kind of the same Concept and so there wasn't a huge difference In the Krupa thing it's just it had a triangle tip 16 inches long 0.515 in diameter a little bit over You know half an inch more like a 7a And it it astounded me that And a lot of these guys as you know, we're playing cap skin heads which are not As bouncy if you're in a humid Uh a humid gig so they don't have microphones And they're playing with cap skin heads And they're using these sticks so It kind of begs the question, you know what? Kind of technique where these guys are using or not Technique per se, but it it would make you play differently. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of us would agree If you had sticks like that and we're having to kick a big band Um That wouldn't be common There there are a lot of great drummers in the world right now who could do that but it's just an interesting Interesting point because you he'd have to be kicking it Mel Lewis would be the same way he'd be playing in a big band, but he wouldn't be overpowering He would just kind of support what was going on Shelly man the same thing his his stick was very very close To the birdland Which I guess I should also mention so the birdland is the Ludwig Roy Haynes model That's the one we started with He had the pencil kind of thinner. Yeah, and so I had a hundred of those made at this woodshop in Maine um, and when vicks started he was using that wood shop Until he got going enough to kind of build his own setup, but That was it. I had a hundred made passed them out to some friends And the reception was good. So that's kind of that precipitated the other Models being added. So it took a while. Yeah, I'm sure What's your favorite stick that you've out of these signature sticks that you've played or maybe one that you haven't done and maybe that's a good transition to um The world has been insane. I mean it's 2021 right now. So everything's been nuts, but in the future You know two-part question. What's your favorite stick of any signature vintage stick that you've found kind of in your collecting? and then Do you plan on adding more down the road? What can people look forward to you know in the future? We do plan on adding more now in terms of the actual vintage Uh signature sticks We'll see uh, we want to bring the Shelly back And two of our models are actually contemporary. So we've got one called a Memphis R&B Which is slightly larger Diameter still 16 inches long um And that's got a tip to shoulder ratio a little thicker and it bears a striking resemblance to The Ludwig stick and again a lot of drummers will know this stick from the old days And then the initials Are BR so we'll leave it at that Um, so we got as close to that as we could then we've got another one called a rhythm and grooves which has a slightly larger diameter more like a 5b, but it's got a super long taper So that gives you the feeling of having some heft You know on the body of the stick, but then the taper Enables you to to not wash out the symbol. So that came from a ledi model Probably from the 40s interesting so Is it fair to say that every major drum manufacturer back in the day your ledi rogers gretch Ludwig slingerland and on and on they would sell their own drumsticks. Is that fair to say? Yes, okay? That's actually a great question um I think at the time well, I know for a fact that most of those companies were making their own So what happened when pro mark came in? to the picture A lot of these companies went Well, hell they're making sticks And it's cheaper than having the employees do them paying them And running the lays and all the expense where if you can get pro mark to make them You've cut down on number one the expenses And you have a company that really cares about the the quality of the sex so There are some I can't pinpoint the transition, but that's basically what happened there That was explained to me by tom osborne who Is the brother of donnie osborne? a big band player And tom worked at the slingerland factory Hmm probably for 10 years during that time. So he was there when buddy came in and Um, and that was basically what he told me. He just said, you know, it was it was way cheaper, you know, and cappella cappella, I don't know Collado may have been doing some of that So I think lidwig you can always see pictures of their factory Uh with a drumstick So I think it kind of evolved into a cost ratio and the accountants were going you know Let's let's get these from somewhere else and not you know have to pay these guys and Etc etc Yeah, but it makes sense to offer them. I mean, I feel like in those days you look at the catalogs like the old gretch catalog or anything I mean they offered everything like it would be like, you know Whatever we'll give you, you know, we have symbol stands. We have symbols. We have drums. We have heads You want to whistle? We'll sell you a whistle We'll give you Anything and everything you want just buy it through us And I know that there's a lot of like like walberg and auge like these companies who would really make the stuff Yes Which hey that still happens today. I mean there's still the oem kind of like like it's it's happening with you where you're but you're Turning it and you know making it your own product and and I know it's similar with keller shells where people say Oh keller, but it comes up a fair amount on the show where it's like well people order their special recipe from keller Doesn't mean you're getting the off-the-shelf stuff that we can all buy on you know their website Um, it's just how the world works. So uh, it's it's it's neat to know that that happened so long ago it just makes financial and logistical sense Yeah, and if you're if you're looking at A lot of those catalogs the sticks were offered, but it wasn't a big deal. It's like, you know, okay, we have these We have these marching sticks you know, we have these orchestra sticks Eventually they started 50s probably started calling them dance models um, so I think That's fair to say there they were an item, you know as part of their line But that doesn't mean drummers were always playing them. Um, I can give you a quick interesting thing there Sure So first of all you you got to give you know kudos to rob cook because I think without rob and his great books we wouldn't have had You know a fraction of this information so sure if anybody wants to you know Really get down and look at the I don't know you get down reading books With rob's books you get down reading them right you do and he's reprinted the leady newsletter Yeah, the topics. Yeah. Yeah, so And he's he really cares about that stuff. So anyway the side story to that the color thing There's a lot of stuff going online where there's there's jasper shells being Like the hot thing and better than so the quick story to that is Gretsch made their own drum shells until the early 50s the three ply ones and then they went to jasper in indiana to do that when tommy robertson of tommy's drum shop here in austin Bought the fives name. He went up to jasper to go Look at the molds and talk about you know buying the molds so he would continue And the molds were so in such bad shape because they've been used for decades jasper had them like propped up on Cinder blocks, you know because they were so funky and So he couldn't use them So he actually had to have shell molds made for the fives Which would be enormously expensive But the formula is the same, you know the tolerances are exactly the same the ply direction so You know I just offer a cautionary tail there because You put them side by side tune them up the same It's it's really not you know So anyway, that's that's a little aside there No, I can and I'm I've talked to tommy before and then it sort of Got put on the back burner and we're going to have him on to do a fives episode but There's certain brands where people are very very very passionate and fives is one of them and As we get close to the end here, why don't we talk about you a little bit more? You're a pretty innovative guy with some When we first met you were showing me some products And things you're working on what other cool stuff outside of drumsticks Have you been working on and anything else you want to share with the listeners? We've got a couple Stick I'm trying to do this subtly stick holder Things that we're prototyping Or we actually have the prototypes and the next thing we're going to have to do is go to Crowdfunding to get them Into production but I'm pretty excited about it. I wish I could kind of reveal more but it's I think drummers are really going to like them and that simply comes from You know playing a lot and Experiencing certain things when you're playing that everybody experiences and You know losing your drumsticks or you know trying to get in your stick bag You know on a dark stage and you can't figure out what stick So it kind of addresses that So anyway, that's what we're going to do Prior to adding more sticks or other types of sticks, but Yeah, there and there are stick designs from The before time where you can See some interesting ideas. Leedy had one called the super balance Where the actual back of this it would taper in the back as well slightly Which would make the stick balance in the center So you're kind of automatically getting a fulcrum there. Oh, yeah, that's neat. Yeah, so we're kind of thinking there I've had a lot of guys drummers in austin, you know come up when we'd hang and They'd play the sticks and go this is really cool, man. You should do this and So we'll see but yeah, basically I you know, I want to make sure that people are Contacting the other guys because the last thing I want to do is paint myself an authority all the rob cook And I'm just a drumstick nerd and at the time there wasn't This wasn't happening because The market was geared towards rock stuff Yeah, and They weren't really You know, they they weren't the drummers, you know, they had the peter urskine bill steward things But those guys aren't necessarily playing in you know, really bad rooms or tiled hotel lobbies and Yeah, for sure. Yeah And I love getting guys like you on the show with a different voice because rob has been on the show Probably more than anyone else and he's coming back on at some point soon to do another episode But you know, it can't be a hundred episodes of me talking to rob as much as I would like that So it's good to get other voices and I really love how you started out the episode talking about Uh, just like the importance of like man, this symbol doesn't sound Great and then you try with a different stick and then boom it sounds good. It's like I've also had it where like I didn't like a symbol Like like you said it sounded great at the music store. I got home. I didn't like it But like maybe my ear changed a little bit or I kind of changed Like I lightened up a little bit or I used a nylon tip or something and like You sort of evolve Into it to try. I mean and then sometimes you just return the symbol because it's not working out if you can but It's it's neat. Just how it's like. I mean, it's it's an alloy. It's like a a living evolving thing So it's neat to just kind of think about that and the importance of that and I don't take for granted that maybe maybe people don't realize that that like, oh, yeah, maybe the symbol I I have maybe I should be using lighter sticks Or heavier sticks So that's a great takeaway for a lot of you know A practical takeaway to try different sticks on your symbols And I think a lot of drummers are hip to the fact that you know, I better bring my stick in And and make sure So It's just a word of advice And so the last thing I wanted to say history wise is there's a website called Drum archive. Oh my god, absolutely love it. It is. Yeah Yeah, so there's there's answers to all your questions in terms of Getting in catalogs and you know Yeah, double kudos to those guys because You don't have to pay $200 for a You know 66 gretch catalog like you did in the 80s, you know Yeah, for sure And and I should know their names. I know people who know like I'm sure people we all know Of the drum nerd guys I'm sure someone's screaming their name and I and I cannot remember the the actual drum archive guys names and I wish I could but I It's drum archive com and as chris said, it's just like I mean, I'm looking at it now. It's ajax to ziljim I mean yeah, and everything in between and it's got just catalogs and pricing sheets and British drums and japanese and it's everything. So that's a great suggestion for everyone So and I if people have seen on social media where I post like an old catalog It's without a doubt from from there. Yeah, it's yeah it's uh really good resources and Can I can I mention one other thing that was interesting? Which was I thanks to robin flance who was a writer for modern drummer Um, and she actually just put out the book about jeff pacaro. So I basically kind of messaged her on facebook and asked if she knew how to get a hold of bobby columbi Um, who of course we know played with blood sweat and tears And a lot of drummers love the guy And he just downplayed his abilities to the fact that you know when I first read the interview It was like that she did in 82. It was like what I was outraged. So I He was kind enough to spend like two and a half hours on the phone with me Ask, you know answering my nerd questions And one of the things he said which kind of tallies with my statement about Not carrying what you played Was a the the drums that he played on all the bs and t albums Mainly were were rogers. So he was endorsing fives and then premier then slingerland But for some reason he kept Using the fives which are now in mark knoppler's studio. I think in england. But anyway, so I said So bobby when you were like recording second album, you know spinning wheel and all that stuff I already know the answer to this but I got to ask it. He said did you you know, did you like Change drum heads to record and stuff like that. He goes hell. No It was like no I we've got and play a gig and then we'd set him up and you know, so But everybody loves his drum sound. Yeah, right. So it's just interesting You talk to the guys that we're doing that stuff And man, he's got some stories So Yeah, well, I found too that like you you hear about, you know, there was an episode on ringo and it'd be like He's not a gear guy whatsoever. He's just like they don't care as much. They just play the drums and it's just an interesting Dichotomy I guess you could say of like, you know, you don't need to be obsessed with gear and be Uh fine tuning everything obviously he has, you know, they have drum techs and all that but um It's just you know, there's it takes all kinds. It's almost kind of I'm sure it kind of drives the the gear nut ultra Tune everything all the time guys and girls a little nuts to be like But I'm so much more, uh, you know anal about this stuff But he's doing fine and he's just hitting things You know, it's like but what do you do? It's all just the passion of playing and all that stuff. Um It takes all kinds It does and I think we're all subject to you know way more marketing Now and Sure, I think Probably, you know, so some of that's just kind of inherent and you know I'm as nerdy as everybody else when it comes to stuff like that Even though I know better. It's still kind of fun. So it is that's why we're here. Yeah, exactly You're doing a great thing incidentally Oh, well, thank you these podcasts and you have a great voice art if I I've never told you that but I appreciate it I appreciate it. I um I did when I was freelancing Doing video and audio between kind of jobs. It would be like I would do voiceovers Uh for like friends doing videos and it was like good easy money But man, that's a hard Once you get in once you get into the voiceover world. It's um, it's good, but it's hard to get in um And I work at a studio where I record a ton of voiceovers, but It's uh, they call it mailbox money where if you get a good gig like being the voice of like something like uh Fifth third bank, which is here, which is I work on their spots It's like of another voiceover talent, but it's like they just you know, it airs they mail you a check mailbox money, um, but Anyway, I appreciate it. Um, so chris. Why don't we tell people now where they can find you and we'll wrap this up and then chris has been kind enough to join me for a little bonus episode, which Uh, I hope you're still okay with it. I want to hear a little bit about there was kind of a story of doing the buddy rich drumsticks and it was kind of a little bit of a Not controversial thing, but but like it's just a bit of a story So if you're still willing to hang out and share that story, that would be great Sure. Okay, so Uh, yeah, why don't you tell people where they can find you a good email social media And then we'll hop over and and get some buddy talk for the patreon bonus episode Very cool. Okay. So they can find us of course at the www.bopworks.net Uh, we do have facebook page, which I mentioned has In the photo section has like a billion uh vintage ads Some of which are are really cool. Some of which are are funny And there's some articles So, you know Even if you were never to buy a bopworks drumstick You'd still get a real kick out of just going through those those photos Yeah, and uh, so if anybody wants to just shoot us an email that's info at bopworks.net Uh, the biggest thing I get is people are going can you make A stick exactly like something or I need it to these specs And what I do to save save them time There's uh in Louisiana. There's a drum shop called la backbeat And my good friend Frank Kinsell. Yes And frank makes great drumsticks Um, and actually I play some of his on gigs that I'm playing a little louder but If anybody's looking to do a custom thing frank is the guy You know shoot an email He's uh Yeah, and he's knowledgeable. You can tell you anything you want to know about would so That's yeah, I'll have to talk we'll have to get him on the show later I always see him at the drum shows um and stuff and just a super nice guy. Yeah, so I'm glad you gave him a mention. Um, so Uh, yeah, everyone. It's bopworks. B. O. P. W. R. K. S. Dot net Chris thanks for joining me here today and everyone else if you want to join the patreon You can go to the drumhistorypodcast.com click the link Uh pay any amount of money. I think it's two bucks is the lowest and you get these bonus episodes such as what I'm about to do with Chris talking about mr. Buddy rich and the drama that came from trying to get signature stick made So yeah, yeah, Chris. Thank you for being here my friend. Thank you, Bart If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning