 Welcome everyone. It's Jenkins governance meeting. This is the 31st of October 2022. Thanks for being here. And topics on the agenda that I've got action items. Elections. CDF topics if all joins us antler two to antler for progress report by Basel. And forum and community topics by Gavin and Gavin I put a couple of items in there. That if you're not comfortable with them I can talk to them as well. Anything else that needs to go on the agenda. Okay, then let's let's run with it so this Wednesday. Two days two days from now we're expecting the release of 2.361.3. And then we're I guess another item here is LTS baseline selection for the next for the next LTS is not yet complete so we're late on that one. There are discussions ongoing in the, in the developer in the developer mailing list, choosing between 2.375 or possibly even 376 or a much older version discussions ongoing. Any other news items that should be highlighted. Oh, Gavin. Yes. There's more community stuff, but the Twitter RSS thingy the releases RSS is now live again. Oh, so what was the fix there that's great congratulations fixed by by the infra team or yeah, we found a tool that we can run ourselves that takes in an RSS feed and spits out Twitter posts, which I'm thinking would be used on the blog as well. Yeah. Nice. And does it, does it do open graph images as well how what's the literally just has the title of the post and the link to the post. Okay. I think her made changes to make it more customizable so we could probably do more stuff, but essentially yeah it doesn't actually like create a nice card or anything it just does the link and the link has open graph. Excellent. Okay. Thank you. Thanks to everybody. Very good. Any other news items and the newsletter because I don't think I just found out of the thing a couple weeks ago and I think it's really cool. I don't yeah can you give some more background on that assembled by Alyssa right. Yep, you're right. Yeah I don't know anything else about it other than existed and it was neat. I don't know if I even read it yet. I don't know where to find it. And I forgot about it. So now, if you want the link I can send it of course, and it's supposed to be out the first week of each month. So definitely we have to work on that this week. There's still your part I think Mark. You have some things. Yes, but it's called like this meeting you know Jenkins governs. So I think you could fit it in after the meeting. So probably get it put on Jenkins.io slash newsletter, or something very short easy to remember. I thought she was publishing community Jenkins.io is that not where it's going Bruno. No, it's going as a blog post in Jenkins.io. Okay. Oh good. Okay. Put in the chapter link to the document if you want to edit it. Thank you. Is that that's not that's a draft for the next newsletter. It's continuous document you know so there is a previous newsletter and then we have the draft for the one which is about to come. And I'm supposed to transform that into an eski document and then make a pull request on Jenkins.io. For the sake of when we post this we should also get the actual link to the last one so that someone can go view the last one somewhere. Good yeah thank you. Okay. For the for the blog post. Very good. Any other right so I can and I think I can find it even now if we've got just a minute if it was posted as a blog post it's easy to find. So, yes here it is good. Okay. I don't slash tag slash newsletter. There. Right. Well that's the one but it's probably better to link to the tag. Oh right because there is. Is there a tag I don't know. Let me update the thing for you keep going. Okay, great. Thanks. Hello. Any other news items for me. Okay. Next topic then action items. Am I readable. Oh yeah yeah so like go ahead. Sorry, it was me. And any any other items in the news section. Well, you're probably. So, yeah, for Kubecon. Yeah, there was CDF for some into there. One of key highlights that there was a major press release by the continuous delivery foundation. So, key points of this release tick tone graduation. Per se, joining the CDF and also CD events, zero dot one release. In the community standpoint, one of the important items, easy to events because you have cloud events plugin and maybe it makes sense to actually update. Maybe I will be spending some time in the coming months for that. Unexpectedly I got a bit more time than I planned. But yeah. And the last is pierced adoption. So basically, what is important for the ecosystem so I can bet that JFrog will be updating the factory plugin to support pierced to, and probably a few, a few more patches so stated for turbulence. But yeah. And you had mentioned one that I missed or like there was a new member. There was a pitch set two times. So you missed it in the beginning so I repeated it later. Okay, the menus. Okay, so per se is now a member of the CDF. Yeah, it's a project as a project of the CDF right okay got it. Thank you. Okay. Great. Yes, I guess that's all about the news. All right. Any news from others before we go on. Okay, next topic then action items. Three we've got community Jenkins that IO for the docs mailing list, no progress but I'm back from vacation so there's a better chance of progress than there was two weeks ago. Easy CLA, like anything you want to share there. Really, but these will be definitely my next item. Great. Okay. And then we had an open question. Gavin reminded reminded me that we've had questions several questions come in in various places in the community about multiple application servers like Tom cat or web sphere or glassfish or you name it. Right now we have as far as we can tell no core developers are actively using Tom cat or, or, or other web containers other than the web container that we ship on our own. And so the thought was should we create a support page similar to the window support page and Linux support pages that we have now, which says tier one support is the windstone container. And tier two is things that will accept patches for we don't promise will work. And, and then tier three unsupported is things that the provider of the container does not support. There is some complications with that because if we talk about the web containers that are Java based, they behavior significantly depends on the version of Java you run. So for example, when we were releasing Java 11 support for Jenkins. We did some testing for Apache Tomcat, I believe, and for build fly. So this is what we've tested. But just to be clear, even acceptance test harness framework is not really that great. And for catching issues there. So potentially you can use a sentence test harness framework or PCT or customer work package or test if any of them left launch with another web container and see what's going on, but we have exactly zero test automation and now existing pipelines for that. So, I would rather ask her question for the recent Java versions is do we want to support anything beyond JT for let's say Java 17 and above valid question and I think I think I'm biased toward the answer being no. But that's that seems like that's the same class of of no as other other Linux variants that we don't test and validate. It's, it's a platform where would we reject a poll request that propose to fix something on behalf of one of these web containers we don't test. I suspect in the average case we would not reject it, but we're not testing it for sure. Yeah, so, and the. So how much of an issue that could be well. And I would rather just call in the community and ask if anyone wants this support and ready to step up and maintain that. There has been a lot of chatter about Tom cat. I think wild plot wild play on the forums the last month or so a lot of people having issues. Some going back a lot longer than that so it's it's you know if that's like a slice of what people are actually using. Then I think enough people using it to make a fuss but I don't know who would be maintaining it. That's what I'd like this idea is where we say, when stone is level one. Anything we can set up automated testing for is level two, we could put a note saying we have no automated testing just could, and anything we won't support our tests at all. You know, it's proprietary or spend cost money or something is level three. And I don't even think we need a giant chart for that we could just literally say, you know, we only test with Winston or something like that and that could be good enough. Right. Because right now it's very hard for me to say on the forums we like, yep, we don't support Tom cat good luck, because you were like older the work around they're like, we don't support Tom cat good luck. Well it's not good luck we supported for Java 11. If you want to go with Java 17. Still a lot of issues with Tom cat on recent versions. So this way, I'm very system about supporting that it's basically a kind of warms, all kinds of liability, compatibility, because we still have libraries, which are Jenkins runtime and which Tom cat around time and they're set different. So for Java 11, it was kind of pain but at least the project was updating at the same time to support Java 11, the way it behind Jenkins. No. So my vote is update the system requirements page and say, we only regularly test with Winston anything else is community supported and is best effort by community members, or something like that just because I want something to be able to point to say, you know, at one point, because at one point Tom cat was used quite heavily, maybe not recommended but use quite heavily and then when that change. There is no, there's nothing really to point at to say hey, we don't we don't have the people anymore to test this. So, oh, like, does that I guess we I think that's a good for me that's a good proposal to say what we test. Right. That may not be a that may not be as definitive as the support page but saying what we test is a good way of being open about the reality of what we are testing and what we aren't. Well, we did basically the same for the things like Windows, Internet Explorer, Windows browser, even Java, I believe Java distributions. But historically what we supported was what some of the vendors used to distribute this. So basically the vendors, which we distributed Jenkins and we're willing to commit the resources to maintain this particular platforms and support. In the community we basically floated along with this policy which makes total sense, because there is nobody ready to support it then. Okay. So if we want to do the same for web containers, I'm perfectly fine. The biggest problem would be some of the deployments because it's hard to run Jenkins and corporate environments if a particular web container is mandated. So let's see. Yeah, but given the given the main takeaway of this speech problem detour, but yeah, I'm fine with it. Okay. Sorry. All right, so Internet Explorer. Non support statement. It's well actually let me let's how about as a as a draft let me propose a poll request we use that for discussion because I think it's worthwhile for us to have that discussion and just see hey what are the what are the concerns or the issues. I do really like a leg sentence about what God now can I remember it. We only we only maintain the one web container, but vendors are welcome to step up and support other containers that they use it for commercial purposes, or something like that because, you know, I think you want to clear on like, I think we want to put heavy push and nudges on people to contribute. I've liked Mark's comments about like getting very aggressive with people like if you want to use TFS, your company should donate resources because we're not fixing it. You know, it's the same sort of thing I think we should be really heavy handed about saying we only support the one because we only have so many people. And any more than that we're expecting vendors, maintainers for Yes, I like that. Okay. Anything else on the application server support matrix topic. Yeah, I wanted to mention about Tom cat the only specific thing that I know that we once supported that we no longer support is wanting to different Jenkins controllers in the same Tom cat process. That's a clear example of something that we used to support that we no longer do. However, I am not aware of any other case where something used to work and no longer works. There was, you know, an example where people were configuring their Jenkins home inside of Tom cat a certain way. And we dropped support for that in favor of the Java argument. But once you use the Java argument you can still do what you were doing for so. There's a lot of people to do what they need to do. And some of the links that I've seen about people having trouble with other web containers seems to be user error, in the sense of some people are trying to use the Jenkins war file with a web container that is using the Jakarta imports rather than the Java X imports. And so that's, that's just a matter of using the wrong version of the servlet container. I don't have any documentation for this because it's not supported but this could be a good way for people who are interested in contributing to start by just documenting okay if you want to use Tom cat it has to be this version because that's the version that's compatible with our servlet API version, etc. Yeah, and this goes a long way in starting that direction where we actually say hey. If you want more support, start adding it, you know, because we, I didn't know any of that stuff and I think that is really the answer to a lot of the questions that came up, especially the Java home stuff that you were, or not Jenkins home stuff that people are starting with I just didn't know that was a change. So, I think documentation would go a long way but that isn't documentation that any of us could provide if we're not actively using that certainly container, but it would be great to have contributions from people who are using the and documentation will be a great place to start I think, because I think for the most part, it should be doable. If you pick the right version and if you configure the home directory in the right way should be possible to use Jenkins on just about any servlet container. Like I said with that one exception of we don't want we no longer supporting multiple Jenkins controllers and one and one Tom can instance. So that's really the only that's really the only thing that we actually just don't support. And that's that's fairly intentional. So yeah, that's all I have. Thank you. Thanks very much. Any other topics anything other other points on application server support. Nope. Okay. Next topic then is elections. Log post has been has been made made visible it's available it came out on the 20th talking about the phases of the election, etc. voter registration has started and will continue for another two and a half weeks, then voting and was then followed by results Gavin and Evelina are both on the board up for reelection, all officers so infra doc security, etc, are all up for reelection events. And there's a link that Gavin you had included to Damien's proposal. I assume that the blog post superseded the proposal. That wasn't my link. I don't know where it came from. Okay, all right, good. So I can just delete that then. Thanks. It happened being the notes and I wasn't sure of its source. Any, any topics there on elections hotspots. I was thinking about it. Do we want to, I mean, I know when Mark came on board and to some degree when I came on board, there was some transition issues or trying to figure out where and how and what to do. Do you think there's any point in and where would be writing up some sort of like, make sure someone or board members have access to the board mailing list and have a min access there and expensive by and I don't know what else. Good. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Access to mailing list expensive by to GitHub groups, the infra and the CNCI board groups. I don't know what else we actually do, but it might be worth writing this down. One right. Yeah, then there's things for offices as well like make sure that such a social access is given and the security officer in particular have access to lots of very sensitive stuff and it's probably a good idea let's capture that. I hope we persuade both of them to be nominated to get the current officer to be nominated again but but one way or the other it's healthy for us to describe what are the things that we need to be sure they they have access. Anything to say if they're nominated anyone can nominate anyone right or you're right sorry that's correct I hope they will accept the nomination that I made. Good point. Anything else on elections. Okay. Next topic then with CDF topics. Oh like anything that you wanted to share there. Well, not really. So, yeah, there will be a governing board meeting in the middle of November. It wasn't due to some reasons. So, no clear follow ups now. Yeah, I do have some private news but I will share it with the team later. But basically that's it. Great. All right, thank you. Also, since we are since I see most of them below, no news on LFX things need to chat. The, the signing thingy. Oh, yeah. So, for LFX community, which is also baby weekend. There is some time for us to decide whether we move out or not as a foundation. So I guess the design would be January or February. So new board issue. Oh, like I'm not sure I'm understanding the LFX LFX community topic. Do you want to give more details? Oh baby. Oh, I'm sorry. Right. So there should be little to no impact on Jenkins. Yes, I create a chapter there we tried to host a few webinars basically hit the wall with some of the issues because of the pricing plan. Taking the limitations we discovered the burn makes sense to precede. Yeah. And yeah, there is no solution for charts or Twitter replacements for offer by the links foundation. That is a point that Bruno brought up later further down. Yeah, that's this master down thing. Yeah. Because I was going to say like the same thing with matrix is they're all designed to be self hosted. And one of the issues is namespaces. So, like, we getting a master down account is easy. You can get it on any of the number thousands and thousands of servers, but I'm wondering if links foundation has any intention of running a CDF or Linux foundation mastodon for their projects relative easy thing to set up for post office hours. It wouldn't be a SAS per se it's like would be a Twitter type thing right. Yeah, so it's basically distributed. Yeah, everyone hosts their own location and that is just whatever central registry. So something like, you know Jenkins at Linux foundation that I owe makes love or Linux, I don't know domain is makes a lot more sense than you know, Linux at mastodon the chat, you know, okay. Yeah. So the last is basically the question of how we hosted. What is the price of this hosting in principle I'm not against the master don't for sure. It's a master down itself is a Rails app so it needs the database and the weather. It's a pretty tiny little ask. And it also brings up the whole like matrix issue. I was going to go make up a space which is a like a collection of rooms in matrix, and someone's already claimed Jenkins that matrix that I owe. I will go to harass them when the time comes to actually try to get it back, but it's just thinking that you know this might be one of those things where it'd be nicer to have an official naming of things and Jenkins that Linux foundation be a lot nicer than things that matrix. Yeah, or Jenkins that CD foundation. You know, right some. Oh, that's all I'm bringing up is this might be things like they're relatively small things that I'm sure even the element team could host matrix one or, you know, Linux foundation to easily spin up a VPS with master down on it. It's pretty easy to launch. So, just things that we should probably bring up at some point. Okay. Linux foundation is easier operating isn't. Yes. I mean if you want to launch your service at the Linux foundation scale you definitely need some time commitment from the foundation. Yeah, but like if the masses on one was only for Linux foundation projects and not users, then it would be a lot smaller scale. But yeah, it's not something I'm going to bring up. I'm talking about it. Yeah, arguably there would be no difference from community to Jenkins the tailman. I mean no practical difference. Right, we could even run on now. Right. Okay. Any other CDF topics. Let's go on to Antler two to Antler for Parkers for quote, muscle. Yeah, so in the last two weeks. Alex Earl and I have been co authoring a change to complete this task, and it was merged yesterday towards this weekly release with that became close to ticket and declare success on this task. It's about all I have. Yeah, one question about. So the threat and the budgeting request, taking this pull request the way do we stand there do we want to proceed with the budget request or do we put it on hold. Well the task is complete so. Okay. Yeah, so budget budget request is is no longer needed right because because we believe the transition is complete now the, the next. Yes, unless the next LTS chooses 2.376. It will be another three months before, before this happens but this was not a particularly crucial thing for the, for the Java 11 or Java 17 right basal it's for next Java releases. But anything else on the Antler two to Antler for progress thanks basal very much for doing that and special thanks to Alex Earl for doing it. All right, next topic then was forums and community topics Gavin. Yeah. So I'm just looking at the notes because I don't have any of the farms have been really support heavy the last couple of months. So there's not really anything interesting to bring up. So yeah, October fist fest is today. I really liked the, the stats of jam. Day of Mama has been posting. It's really kind of cool how many people are doing, you know the first PR is ever with Jenkins. I don't know where last thought I think advocacy channel just listen there. October channel. Yeah, but it's still a large percentage of people who have never submitted to open source before have done a lot of work in Jenkins so it's really nice to see. So I guess it's mostly because of October fest, or do you see large scale contributors joining. Jam stats are really only about October fest things have been labeled October fest and things that happen this month, so I don't know if there's a technically distinction, I think any PR, you know, we pull this label the October fest is considered that. And so as far as I understand the, the October fest rules it's eligible for October fest counting. If the repository is has the topic October fest, or the pull request has the label October fest or October fest accepted and so many of our repositories are have the topic October fest and so all all submissions to those repositories count. Yes, it's definitely more than probably truth, you know because people are submitting things that are not part of the program but it's still good numbers for the month. I was, I was really pleased with this visit to Oleg to your question this graph that's maintained by the Linux foundation for us shows a nice boost of from about 640 in at the end of September to over 700 at the end of October, as their result of contributing developers to the Jenkins repositories in total. Now I think that number is actually quite a bit lower than john marks number I think he sees on the order of 100 independent developers that he could see we're submitting October fest submissions but their numbers say at least 60 of those are are new and had never may have never contributed before. It's encouraging. Yeah, so he blast posted on Wednesday I found it. There's 535 eligible for October fest by 111 different contributors. Among those. That's great. Among those 535 years are hacked or fast complete marriage reply just accepted. They were submitted by 89 contributors with 35 qualifying for swag just from the Jenkins contribute contributions, which I assume is just, there are 35 people who submitted for with exactly that. They did for four plus pull requests that were accepted or yeah that were accepted as eligible. Great. That's really cool. Super thanks. I had put this number in just because I've been interested in pipeline graph you Gavin and I have had conversations about blue ocean and pleased to see that some months it's gone up by 100 installations per month. And it's done that for the last several last two or three months done very nicely so pipeline graph you plug in gives us hope that blue oceans not the only way to visualize pipelines in in Jenkins. It's working great for me and it's running on CI Jenkins.io. It, it's quicker than blue ocean. It renders very well. Nice feel. I've actually been thinking I might submit a PR to it to add notifications so that you could, you could like have a checkbox on the bottom of the page that says notify me when this bill this is done, or like per build or even per project. Because that was one of the ones I have for one of my old plugins that I don't necessarily want to maintain and it'd be nice to add it to this thing. Cool. So, next topic then was raised by Bruno Bruno you that should we get a mastodon account for Jenkins. Yes, because it has been also crazed on Twitter these days with purchase of Twitter lots of people I follow are going on mastodon. And so I did that also today. I'm not leaving Twitter but I have mastodon count just in case and I also experienced the cross posting, you know, I just set up something with a website that cross post whenever I tweet something it goes then on mastodon. So, I was just wondering if it was too early or just to see the idea to move Jen, not to move but to have a master on account for Jenkins. Yeah, I've been doing that for years the same thing. I'm thinking as action items for this. Someone either someone from the board or someone from infra to talk to one of the master and hosts about maybe getting a sponsored install for Jenkins, which I also think we should probably do for matrix as well. Okay. So, Gavin, you want me to put that on you as an action item. I can do it. I just don't know if it should be Damian who does it. I see right valid point. Okay, so that's it's it makes sense it's either you or Damian. Yes, so I think we can assign that to Gavin or Damian and then make a decision. Okay, good. All right. Gavin or Damian. Good. Okay, I think you do the same for matrix as well. Oh, yes, I sure can. You bet. All right. Then we don't have namespace issues we can have, you know, we can have a newsletter at made at Macedon we can have releases at Macedon. We don't have to worry about trying to claim namespaces early that way so I'm going to move this is done writing. Good. Okay. Oh, I'm in the wrong place aren't I there. Okay. Got it. Okay. Yeah, so I just did a quick Google search and there are post solutions for both. So I think it's worth reaching out. I don't know if we want to pay big money for them but a benefit to small monthly costs that we might be able to put a budget. Good. All right. Any other topics on forums and any other items on forums and community topics. I think the new hosting crews doing really well, brother up last meeting, but Alex B is is just owning this and answering all the hosting requests and both Alex's are improving the process quite a bit updating documentation upgrading the IRC bot. It's a lot smoother than when Tim and I were doing it part time so thank you okay so thanks to both of them. Any other topics. The only other things I was going to point out were things I mentioned the newsletter but and I don't remember I mentioned last week but accounts that Jenkins has gotten not only a facelift but a cleanup. So it should be a little bit more reliable. I'm just putting the newsletter more about the facelift itself but I think short of email I think we could probably make email more reliable too. And that should probably because we've been putting it off because we thought we were switching to the other service that I can't remember the name of and that doesn't seem to ever happen so it might be worth just fixing up accounts So between Tim, Alex and myself we got it deployed by you know doctor container CI Tim did a lot of it. See I the UI is fixed. Yeah. Yeah, and I've got to show it. I'm, I'm so pleased. Thank you very much for what you did it's notice what's going to appear at the top notice how there's a top bar on that thing. And it's like the rest of the site and oh no that's your footer. I got to fix that. Oh, okay. I confess I was truly delighted to see this because accounts that Jenkins that I always this long long term thing oh we're never going to be done with it. Thank you very very much wiki Jenkins that I have the same thing now to right right although I like wiki Jenkins that I owe because of what it. But it shows as the, as the top level. Let's see if I can find one sample page. Oh the one that it shows it shows this one this content is deprecated, and it shows Jenkins time. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're going to go into more details on the newsletter but it's worth mentioning. Great. Thank you. Any other topics. General thank you to everyone who's been stepping up on the community pages. I know Alex and Bruno have been helping out quite a bit. I've slowly slowed down I get exhausted by answering all the support tickets and I love to see everyone else step up and I can step in once in a while instead of burn myself out answering things so. Yeah, by the way, given where are you the one who created the template to answer the same question we got regularly. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. I think I think I crowdsourced it early on but yeah. That being said it did just change. So it might be worth at the end of the video showing that off. Because we can make it easier for people to submit changes and ideas and posts and stuff. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Anything else Gavin. But if we're when we're done I'm going to get you to demo real quick. Oh, good. Well, so you do want to go ahead and do that now do you want to do it on the recorded session or do it after. Yeah, on the record session. All right, I think we're done then. Cool. Can you go to community Jenkins that I go to categories. So community Jenkins.io. And categories. Yeah, so I don't know where they put it because I don't use this view, but you know, like, they added a new templates category and put all the templates in there. So instead of it being like hidden in deep and menus. Okay, probably be at the bottom. Yeah, templates. Oh, okay. Any, any top level posts in this forum so all five of those are considered can responses. You can reply to them people can actually it's open to right now this category open to anyone we can lock it down or open it up, but you can reply to them say hey can we change this that kind of thing. We can actually give it's all category management so it's now easier to give out access to people who can post new ones or edit old ones that kind of thing used to be this really hacky groupie thing. We can probably delete that one the last one. Well but no one's using it so yeah that's. But it should be a lot easier to add more of them now because I know I think Mark made the Linux transition one, which is very nice it was just easy for us to just do it. But yeah, so this is very easy for people to add more do, and I encourage people to add more do because at some point it's getting frustrating to answer the exact same questions over and over again so. Well, and I find this no valid crumb is a very common, common occurrence and saying hey, go do this and it nice. Yeah. So I didn't make that one I don't know who did but I'm very happy they did. No, maybe I did. I haven't yet used any one of them. So it's just a copy paste, or I easier than that. Mark, do you want to go to reply to something. Sure. Yeah, so let's let's go look at let's take one. And you don't have to actually apply just hit the reply button. If I hit the reply button here and then there's this little gear, and then there's insert template, insert template, and now it's. Oh, and they're eggs now. That's cool. Oh, oh, nice. Okay. This was a week, a couple days, seven days ago, according to the, you can take one and then the button on the right that said paste, and it'll paste in it'll properly fill out. And now it shows that you had answered it. Yeah, great. Yeah, they're nice and easy. It's a really good night's feature of discourse. If you hit close market will ask you to. Yeah, it and I'm going to discard we don't want to do that answer there. Yeah. So I encourage people to submit more of them. I don't know currently who has access to write to that category but it's very easy to change someone who has wants access to it. So. Yeah, thank you. And if I get time to come to an advocacy meeting I'll do the same discussion then if it happens to me in the middle of my day so. Thank you. Categories for a category for the templates category that's the way to describe it. Or can responses using it for canned responses. Yeah, nice, very nice. Any other topics we need to cover before we end today. Nope, I'm good. All right. Thanks everybody.