 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto. I'm Scott Bernstein here with my partner in crime and co-conspirator Scott Bernstein Ben is in the house and We just want to thank everyone for watching us and listening to us and remind people to please follow us on social media Twitter Facebook Instagram and please subscribe to us. We're on Spotify Apple Podcast Google podcast YouTube channel every time you follow us like us comment and help spread the word and so we really appreciate that and We're super excited today. We have a really special guest. I think our audience is really going to dig this we have Justin in the house aka mooch and From the Mondays with mooch show some of our audience may may recognize Him from his is a YouTube channel and hopefully they follow that and watch that. How are you mooch? I'm doing great. Man. Thank you guys so much for having me on I've been a fan of the podcast for a little bit So I'm excited to get on. Thanks. Yeah, we really appreciate your time I think I think just to let the audience know that and we're hoping that this is kind of gonna tip off a New era of OG pod where we're giving you more biker content and and mooch was a member of the Bogos and the Mongols and he's gonna give us some insight Into that world and we know that you guys love it and when we like bringing it to you We haven't brought it brought as much content as we do with the other stuff But you know, I'm making a commitment to be giving giving the audience more consistent a biker content Because there's a lot going on right now in the world of of of bikers and I think this is a great segue into bringing Justin on and and having him give us kind of the Give us the rundown man because we're we're still kind of novices. I mean we're reporters But we've never been in the shit like you were right. Yeah. Yeah, we appreciate and You know, we we we know our audience enjoy episodes on an outlaw biker So we're happy to do that, but I agree with Scott. I mean Scott's reporter. I'm a criminologist Neither one of us. I mean I I you know, I don't ride We're not members of clubs and I know sometimes in the comment section people beat us up about that Calls out about that, but we find the subculture fascinating. We find it important. It's iconic We think it's interesting to talk out talk about we don't we don't mean to disrespect people or offend people You know that our part of that world We just think it's interesting to discuss so we appreciate when I just love the politics of it I mean forget about whether or not you ride or not forget about the blood and guts like I just love You know analyzing and understanding the politics of groups like this Yeah from a sociological Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting. So but anyhow mooch. I mean your life is is fascinating We're gonna go into we want to talk about your journey. You start off as this is a punk rocker hardcore kid We hopefully we can get into that a little bit You get into some juvenile delinquency if I may say They kind of a troublemaker and then but you're you're you know an enthusiast for motorcycles You you get involved in that subculture to the extent that you actually become a member of really prominent one percenter clubs And then we get to the point now where you are actually a counselor an influencer an author a Motivational speaker. So just just you're really full packed life here. Let's start from the beginning I mean, let's let's start like, you know, like maybe the punk rock stuff before you get attracted to the 1% life Yeah, man, I think You know the cool thing with with working on this book that I'm doing is I get the kind of relive a lot of stuff from my youth and Remember and really overthink things I guess that that a lot of times I probably forget And you know, I was talking with someone the other day about a lot of times when people get involved in gangs or clubs It's you know, they're out there looking for a family or that family connection And and that was never true for me, man I've had a really great Italian family very tight knit like we spend every Sunday together do at dinners and holidays and And so I think for me I'm an identical twin And I think for me I was really searching for identity really early on Trying to be different for my brother and kind of coming up with my own my own thing And and so I got into punk rock at a pretty early age I had an aunt that would take us on the I had my mom was pretty young when she had us So my aunt will keep us on in the summers and she would play like madness and the specials and clash and sex pistols And Ramones and all this cool stuff for us. And so I got into punk rock really early on And and I really started getting influenced by that and I kind of started dressing that way and getting into that culture and then I started getting into more of like you know cox bar and some of that that oil movement and that stuff and One day my freshman year of high school I was wearing a t-shirt was a dead Kennedy shirt in the back said Nazi punks fuck off and there was a pretty big Epidemic at my school at the time of these this neo-nazi organization called Volksfront And and they were causing a lot of issues and and they pretty much wouldn't say they beat me up They pushed me around and kind of bullied me and they kept calling me sharp And I didn't know what that was and the internet wasn't a thing back then So I went to the pals bookstore up in Portland and I bought like every book I could about skinheads and a skinhead subculture and I really got immersed in the whole like traditional anti-racist skinhead scene And I spent probably ten years of my life doing that mind going to concerts and fighting with with racists and ended up starting a band and touring the country for about five years and There's really just kind of immersed in that scene for quite a while Yeah, I mean I'm I'm glad you brought that up by just a few weeks ago in my gangs and organized crime class We have a lesson plan on extremist groups, and I always play music before class I played DK's Nazi punks fuck off Before class and I don't think my students and they're 1890 years old I most of them aren't punk rockers. They never heard anything like that So and then I also played a big takeover from bad brains So I would I really enjoyed like that like politicized politically charged punk rock and hardcore from that from that era Yeah, and I think I mean, you know it was a really violent scene and we were Looking back doing probably some things weren't proud of and it's a pretty, you know Hey miss violent stuff, but we were doing it like kind of under the guise of like social justice, right? Like to us it wasn't necessarily gang on gang like we thought we were essentially we were fighting racism We were fighting these neo-nazi skinheads and going head-to-head with them So so to us we were doing some justified violence, right and we thought it was We thought we were doing social work early on but doesn't that also kind of color up your eventual membership in in and not just Outlaw 1% motorcycle groups, but specifically vah goes and Mongols which kind of not kind of they Push back on the notion that bikers are all, you know, white nationalist Neo not, you know the vah goes in the the Mongols that have a lot of diversity in their ranks for sure And that's really, you know, once I really got into riding motorcycles I did the similar thing where I went out and read every book there was about motorcycle clubs and all that stuff And he said that you guys remember the era of pre-internet, right? So you can't really deep dive things on the internet So you got to get books and talk to people involved and so I really got into that culture And one of the things that attracted me to the vah goes was just that there were a lot of dudes from the punk rock scene a lot of skateboarders You know, they weren't all white guys the ones that were more more kind of like punk rock alternative white guys and So at first that kind of felt like like the home for me You know, I jumped into a head first without knowing a lot about it and was pretty naive and I'm pretty impulsive kid back then And after about two years in that club I realized it wasn't a really good fit for me and I ended up moving on to the Mongols and then I spent 15 years in the Mongols Well, one of the cool things about the Mongols was very similar like you said, you know There's obviously are pretty well known for being Hispanic club But there was even when I joined there's a lot more white guys in the now But even when I joined there was a handful But a lot of them came from that antiracist skinhead scene the punk rock scene like we were talking off air Some of those dudes came from suicidal and kind of that crew There was a lot of dudes that I met over the years that came from the antiracist skin had seemed like the family Skins and unity and a lot of these LA based skinhead crews that kind of graduated up and joined the club world too So there was a lot of basic connection there based off what we did before the club Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a I think an interesting point that gets lost is because I think that there is the kind of Stereotype that outlaw bikers will definitely in the midwest east coast down south where there's a lot of outlaws A lot of pagans. Hell's angels are kind of peppered in there And those are the groups that are more nationalistic. You got to go out west and Into some of the flyover states to kind of be exposed to that So, I mean, we're gonna get into this but like with you know, Mongols in the Midwest They they weren't here until five years ago. And you know Justin played a role in that And I just want to clarify before we jump back in when you join the Mongols you join Am I correct in saying that was like the mother club like that was the club that was Kind of running the national Mongols. I started in Oregon I I chartered the first chapter in Oregon pretty much every chapter in the Midwest over the couple years I ended up joining the mother chapter club. I think around 2011 So I was in mother chapter for about 10 years, but I started out started out in Oregon with some Oregon chapters And I want to ask her about that too, but just I just also want to say for the record again I'm not an expert, but I have talked to both Hell's Angels and outlaws off the record who are not No, no, yeah, I want to be clear. I'm not saying that every member of those clubs hate black people or hate Jewish people Apologize if that's how it came out Like I was saying a lot of dudes come from that hardcore and punk rock scene It was more based off where you live than it was what club so what was the big club in your area? So, you know in Sacramento and Northern California There was some big hardcore and punk rock crews called you obhc most hated and they ended up a couple of them And I've joined in the Angels right and these are guys I was friends with before that we just went opposite ways because of who was in our area Boston and upstate New York and all that Super tied into FSU that FSU click from hardcore and so a lot of those dudes ended up joining the outlaws So there's still a lot of dudes from that that subculture that joined all the major clubs just depending on on geographic region really But I would say to Scott's point and you correct me if I'm wrong Which that one of the reasons why the the Mongols Banditos Vagos emerged though was to fill a void. There was this sort of exclusive idea to some especially Hell's Angels whereas if you Were a person of color you could you could have your own biker club Is that was that part of the idea of an emerging or no? I don't honestly I think that's more rumor than fact I think it was more based on your region So, you know, so Southern California has a lot of Hispanics in it and the Hispanic guys were sticking together And they were the guys that started the Mongols were looking at some other clubs first and decided on joining their own But the rumor that they couldn't join because their Hispanic has proven not to be true And I think when you guys had George Christie on he talked about you know There's been other Hispanics in the in the Hell's Angels over the years. They've have, you know, they have other nationalities in their group So I think that's just like a simple explanation. So people buy it pretty quick You know the Banditos even though I were Texas they have a huge white. I mean a lot of those are white guys, you know So I think it's more geographic and region like where you from what what's the you know What's the bigger demographic in that region and that's you know, those are the guys that grow up and join Contextually as I mentioned before I mean Jimmy and I are from the Midwest were from Detroit and in Detroit You have two major biker groups. You got the outlaws and you got the highwaymen, which is more of a homegrown They're not super national, but if you look at the the membership indexes All the Hispanics in Detroit that are joining clubs are joining the highwaymen. They're not joining the outlaws Right part of that is the highwaymen were founded on the southwest side of Detroit Even though they were founded by white people southwest Detroit is where the Hispanic population And that's what goes to my demographic standpoint because I have met a ton of Hispanics in the outlaws as well And it'd be I think it depends on the region like where you grow up because you know All it really takes is one guy from your friend group to join a club And next thing you know, you're riding with them you're hanging out and then you start joining so You know if it's a local thing and it's your neighborhood crew and that type of stuff That's generally the guys that stick together and join together Yeah, that's a great point. I appreciate your insight and clearing that up. So let's go back to you know your your history here You say the vah goes that wasn't a good fit for you. Do you want to expand on that or? Um, you know when I was in the skinhead world, we had a pretty Structured gang that we were in and and if our discipline was normally through violence So if you messed up or you made a mistake it wasn't like club world or it's a fine Or you re-prospect or whatever you were getting beat up. And so when I when I left that I really found that that undermined brotherhood, you know, it was really hard I know there's that old adage that friends can fight and have a beer and shake hands and But I just didn't see that to be true even though we would still be cool There was always some sort of resentment or underlying issues Um, and so when I first started to handle the vah goes, you know, they had said that that vah goes Weren't allowed to fight each other and put hands on each other And and like I said, I was more intrigued that it was a bunch of young guys just in the punk rock and it Coming from Oregon. The biker scene was a lot of older guys Listen to classic or traditional biker stuff that you would think, you know And when I first started hanging out clubs in Oregon, I remember kind of sitting in this clubhouse looking around thinking man If it wasn't for wanting to be in a club, I don't have anything in common with any of these guys If we don't listen to the same music, I wouldn't invite these guys for a barbecue Like I liked them But they're more like people you're happy to see when you're out and we weren't on that level Um, and the vah goes kind of showed me that there was more people that were kind of from my background Or at least in a similar interest. So so I bought into that When I say it wasn't really for me, there was some leadership issues back then That I have heard has been uh since been you know sorted out or fixed but it just um There was a leadership stuff There was some stuff with fines that I didn't agree with but honestly what it really came down to is Our chapter was having some issues with another chapter And there was a church we were having about our safety and our security and and what we were going to do with this Meeting with this other chapter and I remember thinking why am I why am I going to be in a club where we're fighting other clubs and ourselves And it didn't seem like a logical step and and because of that and because I'd already known some mongols Um, I was ready to make the move and to be honest with you guys back then the vah goes Weren't as well known as they are now they were on the come up and they were growing but they weren't considered a one percenter club They were still primarily in southern california and southern oregon Um, and so the mongols was almost a step up and I mean that with respect to the vah goes But the mongols were a step up at the time. They were a bigger club more dominant club So it was almost like starting in a smaller club and then working my way up At the point that you joined the mongols was uh, was doc already the boss at that point He was I I joined during doc's big recruitment drive and honestly had I joined after that I probably wouldn't be able to because for a long time we weren't allowed to take members from other major clubs In an agreement with the vah goes that we wouldn't take their members Um, so I kind of came in at the right time for me where it was just really working out doc was really pushing recruiting They were opening up similar to what the pagans have been doing over the last few years The mongols did that early on and they were just really opening up, you know Small chapters and different states just to kind of establish new areas. Can you give the the audience maybe just like a two minute primer on who doc cavazos Was or is I mean, uh, I'll just Preface it by saying, you know, he be eventually became one of the most notorious biker bosses in america Came got busted in the big operation black rain and Isn't really in the club anymore and there's a lot of questions about whether or not He cooperated, but at one point he cooperated. Yeah, he cooperated. I mean, there's I would never outright call anyone Informal or say they cooperated without proof in paperwork and in the discovery is 100% But the point by the point I'm trying to make is that at one point Doc was as big as they came in that world So I just kind of want you to tell the audience like who this guy was The first time you met him what you thought of them stuff like that Yeah, you know, I mean not only I was only in the club under him for about a year But I will say I mean he was a really charismatic guy. Um, he was very likable I mean, he had a lot of really strong leadership skills, right and regardless of how things played out Um, I do think he did some good for the club initially You know, he kind of at at the time when he took over, you know The mongols were uh down to a few, you know, a few members that were still in that really old school vibe dudes were doing mess and beating each other up and kind of running people off and Doc really changed that culture and and doc really started to bring in that new generation of mongols that I came in under So he did a lot of positive things and really started help for with growth and stuff like that I say my first impression is I was at a big I was my first big mongol run and like I said one things I didn't like about the vogels was was um Like some finds and stuff and some of the guys Terry the tramp their national p if he if he had like jewelry He liked usually he would try and take it or tell you to give it up and I remember So that was my experience with club stuff, right? So I see doc going around each t-shirt booth chapter booths Looking at shirts and they would give him a shirt and he would try and pay for it And I remember thinking wow, that's cool because that's a polar opposite from what I just saw um, so, you know, he seemed Like a brother like that guy that really cared about the members and cared about each other um I didn't know him enough to say much more than that but I I can say Although he single-handedly almost ruined our club by giving away our trademarks and and doing some pretty backhanded stuff He did bring a lot of guys into this club help us establish a new area and kind of revamp the style of the mongols Can I ask you a back again really interested in just the subculture and understanding the sociology of it? um If if you are patched over member of a club And you want to transfer to another you said It means that the politics of it. I mean, how well does that go over? I mean that obviously you were able to do it and Is are there moments where sometimes people don't take that kindly or I mean, how does that work? It didn't go over well when I did it either so When I did it I brought um four or five guys with me in Oregon and then a couple guys in Vegas and two in nevada and eventually I ended up bringing the whole Shasti county vago chapter two So I ended up bringing probably took close to 20 guys with me when I did it So not only was it kind of a slap in the face that I had left and joined another club But then I took a bunch of guys with me That was the first time in my life where I'd ever been had the fbi show up to my house and told me there was a Contracted hit on my life. I never thought that stuff was real. I honestly. I don't even know how serious I took it then But that was the first time anything like that's happened is You know, they have to they have a duty to protect or to warn you if they know that you're in imminent danger And he showed it to my mom's house and and told us that the vago's had a hit on my sweat I can't tell you that's true. I'm not going to speak to that but I will say that That's how it went over. You know, I mean, that's a pretty good sign that it wasn't a smooth transition okay, but that that is the question unless it's Break it down a little bit even more because there's I think there's layers to this because there's the There's the patching over from one Either semi major group or major group to another major group Which I guess if you want to make a sports analogy, it would be like, you know The chicago bears trading a quarterback to the new york giants But there's I think the tell me if I'm wrong the more traditional patching over is when smaller clubs that don't have the notoriety Or the muscle or whatever Are absorbed Yeah, would be a way to say it and then the entire Group whatever they're called Becomes the mongols Correct. Yeah, that's that's the common way and like I said, um The vagas weren't as big as they were now and they would it wasn't quite that clear cut But it was a similar where it was going stepping up to a major club to a bigger club For sure because that's part of and we'll get into this in a second But he referenced the pagans and this expansion that they're um Undertaking in the last five six years and some of it is in conjunction at least my report He says it's conjunction with some of the mongols and the pagans this expansion is being fueled by Cone in the barbarian Richter who's the kind of the head of the snake here going around to smaller lesser known clubs, uh, at least starting to do that in the east coast and uh, um New england and some parts going up towards the midwest where he's just I know that in in Providence, Rhode Island There was a group called the thug riders And now the thug riders are just that's the Providence mongols Like Derek Maguire who was the president of the thug riders I'm sorry. Yeah Well, he was president of the thug riders and then he made an agreement with conan He traveled from Providence To see conan in either new york or new jersey and they agreed that all of the thug riders That was just as far as I know I think it was just that chapter because there's still a lot of thug riders Okay, well just that i'm sorry that that one chapter became the mongols. No pagans. Sorry pagans Wow. Yes pagans. Right. Um, yeah, I mean that that's pretty standard or pretty common And if you look at the history even, you know in the fifties and sixties that was really common for the Hell's Angels, you know that they're not just grabbing guys off the streets in a new state You're getting people that are already established that already know people that are already kind of running some sort of You know motorcycle club Structure or you know have some inroads there and then you know, you see if they're worth it And if they're good guys and i'm dedicated there and then you're ended up, you know Either a prospect or patch over however each club does it but a lot of times That's how it works is you're finding another club that was already established and then bringing them into the quote-unquote big leagues Yeah makes sense. So uh, tell us about you know before you start to expand and go to the midwest Tell us about your life now on the west coast now. You're an established mongol Tell us about you know that that part of of your life Man the first year was pretty crazy. So you know, I joined the mongols. I'm still you know Just for clarity. I joined the motorcycle club because I love motorcycles And then obviously coming from you know, skinnet and gang culture stuff I like the brotherhood and the aspect with it But i've never been like an organized crime dude, you know, there's not a lot of that going on And so I was doing this based off my love for motorcycles. And so when we started in oregon there wasn't There's a lot of really good clubs in oregon They're very old they've been there for a long time But they weren't clubs like I said before that really jibed with me like clubs that I considered that I would be a good fit for so I decided to start the mongols there And the major clubs in oregon had an agreement with all the other major clubs that there would be no other big clubs in oregon so They pretty much all banded together to try and keep us out And within the first couple months of us being there the oregonian the big newspaper there did a huge story about it Pretty much making it look like we were at war with the gypsy jokers and these other clubs It was pretty tense. There was it wasn't like we just popped up and got to kick it Things things were pretty hectic I learned a lot at you know during that era Um, and then the other hard part was you know, we were new to a state So the the cops and the feds were very heavy honest, too. We had Two informants in our first chapter and at the time, you know, I was pretty naive Honestly, I obviously I knew about like undercover cops and stuff, but I didn't know about this whole Informant game, which is huge now Because these dudes I've always every chapter I've ever had we've had a no meth policy And these informants were doing meth and we were taking them to rehab and trying to clean them up So I just kept thinking man these guys are more criminal than us. So there's no way they're telling on people and So turned out they were informants. So they always had atf for following us around and then When that newspaper article came out things were getting pretty heated And I was leaving my my parents live on 150 acres and I was staying out there on their farm And when I was leaving one day, there was an all blacked out suv coming up my driveway And I was in a car or a truck and I followed them off the driveway and followed them for a while Trying to see who they were and they drove to the gypsy joker clubhouse So, you know, you can imagine that I would assume that this was enemies and this was an issue Um, and then they left there and they headed south and I followed them for over an hour And what I did is I called some of the other guys from the Eugene chapter And said hey this car every time I tried to get up side alongside of them and look in to see who they were They wouldn't let me see them Uh, I mean they were 100 trying to evade me So I figured maybe if there were some other cars on the road, they didn't recognize me They can get a look in so I had a couple other guys meet me on the road And once we got to Eugene, one of the guys pulled up next to them and they hit their lights and turned out They were ATF agents and undercover gang detectives And they busted me for attempted kidnapping and conspiracy to commit kidnapping. So I stayed in jail for uh, two or three months on on uh, well started out 14 million and then it went down to a $1.4 million bail. So obviously I stayed in there And I fought that case and I beat it at trial. I got found guilty of reckless driving and menacing which were misdemeanors But the because my crime was against law enforcement. They were pretty strict on the punishment So I got five years fell in a gang probation and part of that was non-association with the club So here I had been in the club about eight months and I wasn't allowed to affiliate with them anymore And since there was informants in the chapter, which we didn't know at the time every time I affiliated I'd get caught and go back to jail for one or two months at a time And I ended up doing about a full year on and off From getting caught by associating going back and forth and that's when I decided to move to san diego I knew that with a misdemeanor warrant. They likely wouldn't extradite me And in within that first year being in the club. So I did that and then operation black rain hits And you know, almost all the mongols that I knew or came in under or was in chapter with were arrested in black rain So that first year was real tumultuous man And there there was a lot of up and downs in a really big learning curve That was 2008 just for people to get a timeline here Operation black rain was one of the d8 ats biggest busts of the last three decades and Took down a ton of leadership in the mongols and it hit no weight Yeah, I joined I joined in um november of 2007 and then black rain was october of 2008 So all of that stuff that happened to me. Um, plus there was a When I joined unbeknownst to me being a white guy from origan the club was having a disagreement with another well known organization. So Outside of the motorcycle world. So there was a lot going on that first year, you know And it said it was a pretty big learning curve pretty quick Would you say it's accurate that now that you have, you know, there's a gap of time in between The thought process that you had and let's say the mid 2000s or late 2000s and then now saying that you know, these guys were all drugged out And we were helping them get to rehab. So that made me i'm I'm saying what you said that made me think though There's no way of their informants now Would you say that if the if this happened to you today, you'd have the opposite reaction say these guys are definitely informants Yeah, definitely, man. There was a lot of red flags that Like to this day, I'll say I ignored them, but honestly, I just didn't recognize them I didn't have that experience with stuff like that. All I knew about undercover cops was like what I saw in movies and stuff, right? Like it's not something that the general culture, you know deals with Um, so I just kind of learning as I go and and these guys were actively Pursuing and pushing us to do illegal activity on a regular basis. They were trying to get us to steal motorcycles They were trying to instigate issues with the other clubs in the area Um, and like I said, the other clubs didn't want us there But we were doing sit-downs and and being fairly cordial our communication was was good And these guys would want to go out and start smacking them around and and they were just trying to instigate a lot of things And looking back. Yeah, it was pretty obvious for the fact that you know The rest of the guys in the group weren't criminals and these guys were trying to do and get people to do criminal stuff Uh, they were like openly saying hey, I'm a felon. Can anyone buy stuff sell me a firearm and like Uh, I remember one of them had asked me if uh, if he called me over the phone And yes, he said like hey for the chapter I have this idea. I've got this guy that can change vinn numbers Why don't we start stealing bikes switching vinn selling bikes? And I remember saying do that a it sounds like a headache and b it doesn't sound worth it Like that we're not going to do that and then when I got my discovery from the case One which coincidentally was the detective that I supposedly tried to run off the road Says yeah, I was here with confidential form at number four and he asked mooch to steal bikes and mooch said yeah, good idea And so it's like there was this back and forth where they were in order to get paid They had to show that there was criminal stuff happening right and I imagine that we were pretty boring to hang out with because You know outside of you know partying going out in bars and being stupid out of bars I'm sure frat boys were doing more criminal stuff than us So I think it got frustrating for them to a point that they really started pushing stuff pretty heavy I think the general public doesn't really have an understanding of the informing game everybody Like what mooch is saying like they think of a movie or a television show where somebody gets on a witness stand and points a finger When in reality 90 percent of the informants are what they call dry snitches Where you're just giving information in exchange either for leniency or actual No cash transactions and you're never going to have to get up on a witness stand Yep Yeah, neither one of these ever had to take a witness stand too many You know a lot of people involved took plea bargains or some of it was just information right We were new clubs. So they were they were feeding information to the gang cops about how many members we had and how often we did church and You know just the simple information, but they were they were giving up all this information getting paid $4,000 a month to do it Um, and I think what the public doesn't understand is that it's a lot of these informants that are instigating the criminal activity That's the frustrating part, you know, because then then you know, they get out and threaten it Yeah, for sure. And you know one of these informants Was still around right after black rain and then um kind of got outed right after that But during a time when the mongols weren't allowed to wear their patches He was making mongo shirts and giving them to these like tweaked out dudes in his town So that when they got caught they'd say mongols were busted with meth or this and that so it was you know It was making everyone look bad, but they weren't real mongols and they weren't anything apart of the affiliation and it's It's this uh, you know smear campaign and it's you know done by law enforcement the media and everybody else But it's organized and it's structured and it's by these guys that are getting paid to do this for a living Yeah, and I think to you guys, you know have more knowledge about this than I do But maybe something else that people if they're just what getting this knowledge from tv shows or movies Well, we're talking about informants. These aren't undercover cops These aren't guys that went to the police academy or these are criminals that are hedging their bets that agreed to as part of their Deal agreed to to infiltrate No, uh, uh, these are active criminals that are trying to like watch their backs by cooperating with the people that are trying to investigate them in some cases getting paid millions of dollars um, and then in the in the court documents Very rarely does it ever say, you know, jim smith was the cooperator. It will say ci It says ci3 or ci4 or whatever the only reason I know who it is It's obviously like said I spent time with these guys just makes it pretty obvious But yeah, that's exactly what happened in you know the second one I'm not really sure how he got into being an informant But I know the first one was caught doing stealing bikes doing illegal stuff And so for a lenient sentence he decided to start cooperating and he both of them joined The mongols with the full intent of being informants. They weren't like mongols that got caught doing legal stuff They specifically joined to inform on us And which I do think speaks volumes to the fact that we weren't doing illegal activity considering we had two informants with us for several years And we only had one guy got busted and it's very unfortunate. This guy had done 15 years Got out was getting clean Prospected joined the mongols and this informant kept asking to borrow money borrow money So we loaned him some money and the informant said man, I'm not comfortable just borrowing money without some collateral Why don't you hold on to this pistol for me? And he got fell in possession of firearms selling a firearm and since he did so much time he did 15 more years after that I mean, it's like you said it's entrapment. It's you know, here a guy is thinking this is a brother I'm trying to help him out loan him some money and now he's doing 15 years You know, well, I think another thing that people should know is that and this is playing off the of the narrative that that mooch just laid out there The biggest targets for law enforcement looking to flip criminals are drug addicts and believe me One of the enticement factors for these drug addicts are drugies They're getting they're getting drugs from the from the law enforcement law enforcement's feeding the habit So they don't have to pay for the drug. They're getting paid money from law enforcement for what they're doing and they're getting free drugs And the part that people don't understand is These guys like we were saying before if you're getting a paycheck or you're getting drugs and that now That's your job or that's your hookup and illegal things aren't happening Of course, you're gonna either say they are if they're not or start instigating them So you're not really protecting or you know Following the law you're you're instigating and you're getting people to break the law so that you can justify a paycheck And that's where it gets really cloudy and you know, these newspaper articles come out We're like, yeah, all these motorcycle gangs got arrested for this and that and they have no idea How many times those are informants that are just during the pot or creating crimes Yeah, it seems like from a criminal justice policy perspective the the system is Flawed to the extent that you're going to have someone put them in a position where They're going to tell you what you want to hear and if your uncle sam You've got this junky Informant and and they know that you want to hear That mooch or whomever is up to no good. They're gonna they're gonna they're gonna tell them that right and they'll figure out some Flimsy mickey mouse way to to entrap you well, they say I mean I've heard cops tell me, you know I've hung out with just as many criminals as I have cops law enforcement fbi at fdba I've had these guys and these are decorated federal law enforcement. It meant to me. I mean off the record It meant to me. Yeah, we trumped up that charge. Yeah, we lied But our thinking is we go into court we go we jump on the stand They're gonna believe us over the they're then they're gonna believe the guy on the defense table and that works 99.9 percent of the time And you know them to them that end justifies the means they they firmly believe in their mind that they're getting rid of criminals So they want to do what it takes to get rid of criminals, you know The the the frustrating or unfortunate part about these informances a lot of times what they're reporting is happening Is what ended up going into these police trainings and these gang trainings That's on and so there's these this repeated repeated law enforcement narrative that isn't necessarily correct in a lot of different You know a lot of different cases or maybe this is something that happened in the 70s One cop happened so now you got like I know you guys have done some of those trainings You get to these gang trainings and they're repeating things that aren't are far from fact But it's just because of their source of information. So it has a really big impact, you know on a national scale It's not like it's just affecting the people in the chapter or whatever Yeah, and you know as a social scientist, you know, I want to collect data And so I've undergone some of this training and we do, you know We'll have similar conversations with with members of law enforcement And so that's why I think it's really important to talk to you guys like you and George and we've had big pete on I mean, I'm one of the first to get both to get to have to have to have balance because I agree with you When you when you undergo that training, I'm just telling you that Your your your instructors are people from law enforcement. Whatever. I'm not trying to talk shit I'm just being matter of fact that they will tell you and teach you That biker clubs are the same thing as ms-13 or the Italian mafia or whatever And they'll use some of these examples that you're talking about You know, it's a funny kind of paradigm for me and and I wonder if they understand this narrative But if you're going to push the narrative that motorcycle clubs are organized crime just like the mafia And they're doing it with a patch on visible for everyone to see You either have to agree that a you're terrible at your job as a police officer because you know there's these Hundreds of thousands of criminals out here just breaking the law into your nose or you have to admit that they're not breaking the law But they're you can't really have it both ways and I think that's the funny the funny thing about their their whole thought process on this is Here's this huge organized crime, but it's not secretive like the mafia was they know who we are Everyone's wearing patches, you know, everyone's on social media advertising where they're at where they've been So how can they be prolific gang members and then not be getting caught? And still be supposedly be organized crime or what's more believable. They're just not committing Organizing themselves and organized crime. Jimmy, you made a great point I don't remember if you made this on the podcast or when we were having a conversation, uh, you know, just us in private but you know You have a situation here where You might have a club of let's say there are 100 members in the detroit Westside Outlaws And there might be 10 20 members that are legitimately Doing criminal activity Now that doesn't mean that the other 80 or whatever percentage it is are involved in some huge racketeering conspiracy and it's like It's it's difficult to parse and then you have the perception coming from Whether it be a small percentage or a medium percentage, but it's not everybody in the group I mean, I know From my study my studying the groups around here. I can't speak to what's going on in california or in portland But in the groups around here, yes A lot of these guys are out of central casting what you would look and think and act like a biker and are criminals but there are also guys that work nine to five jobs that Want to be part of a club They don't see it necessarily as Engaging in criminal behavior And they're not engaging in criminal behavior other than being a part of a club that where there are some people that engage in criminal behavior I think the distinction is that even if there's some members that are doing illegal stuff They're not paying a percentage of their profits to the larger organizations So it's not going up the ladder now I agree that clubs have been plagued with stuff like that for a long time But I would also say 70s and 80s most likely maybe some early 90s But the the culture has shifted so much with the popularity of motorcycles and motorcycle clubs That way more middle-class Nine to fivers are joining motorcycle clubs than the old Hey, i'm gonna be a biker 24 seven and if I have to sell dopes, I don't have to have a job I'm gonna do that that's not really a thing anymore So I think a lot of what they're training and teaching is Very behind the times too because you know, I wasn't around then but I can promise you from what I've heard and read And what you guys have heard and read is probably true people are doing some shady stuff back then But it's not true now and I know when little dave took over the mongols one of the first rules We instituted was everyone has to have a visible mean income for that exact reason Everyone had to have either a nine to five or some sort of settlement or some way to show their That they're making legal money because if it takes one guy to get caught doing illegal stuff It makes us all look bad So let's use that as a segue to get into more modern times and you mentioned little dave uh little dave was Was he doc's Direct successor or was there someone in between doc and little dave there was two guys in between him and little dave But within a year. Okay, so little dave was the face of the mongols He was the national president throughout most of the 2010s think about 2010 until just last year and then It's this has been in the news. We're not we're not breaking this story Uh, there was an indictment the trademark It was a big deal about whether or not the mongols were going to lose their trademark Lose the copyright and then it it came out from little dave's girlfriend or wife She had recorded little dave She was upset with them She like kicked him out of the house because he was sleeping with another woman and he was trying to beg for To come back and she's recording him and while she's recording him It sounds like he's admitting to her that he is a informant and that His contact in the atf this guy that he had known for years Was leaving the atf at the end of the year and that they would have no long they would no longer have protection She brings this tape to the mongols He's kicked out of the club Eventually they get their trademark back But little dave has done some interviews. I think in the last year Where he's insisting this was a miscommunication Well, there was there was that last court date. So the the trademark thing that you're talking about It's actually still an extension from 2008 black rain. So that initial Thing the first judge ruled that an injunction against the patch And no mongol was allowed to wear the patch have anything that said mongols on it And then it didn't take long before they decided that was un Unconstitutional ever since then the government's been appealing it or the mongols are appealing one way or the other So these have been appeals that have been going on since 2008 Where the little dave thing got relevant in court was The attorney came back and said hey listen if we can prove little dave was an informant Then it's going to be pretty likely that we can show that we didn't get a fair trial since he was the main guy on this You know that been fighting the case. He was he was the president during the whole trial So he was kind of the face of the the organization. He made the calls with the attorneys Um, so they thought that they had a leg to stand on what I think is relevant for little dave in this case is that You know every Every bit of evidence was overturned. I mean, you know came out of the woodwork They they interviewed every single, uh, you know la county sheriff's department police department fbi atf Everybody and there's zero record of little dave ever cooperating ever fighting information and never being an informant and and you know The case that that was thrown out Which you know today even a lot of us see that as vindication and the fact that there was Other than a tape made by a scorned woman that I would agree didn't look good There's zero proof that he ever cooperated with law enforcement at all But but by then the wheels were spinning. He was out of the club and you know politics changed by them So and there's context. We've seen this in the italian mob as well I I can think of a situation in springfield, uh, massachusetts with big al Bruno where he just happened to have a conversation with an fbi agent He probably shouldn't have the conversation. He wasn't cooperating He just knew this guy as a guy that had been following him around for 20 years They ran into each other at a pizza place They were both picking up pizzas and as they were waiting for their pizzas they started having a conversation I don't think bruno ever thought what he was saying that this fbi agent's gonna make its way into a a court document And he made a comment to him about somebody that had gotten made or gotten a button And the fbi agent's like I got this from al bruno Well, then it gets into a court document And everybody's taken the document and showing it around and going up to d york and being look al's cooperating Well, he wasn't cooperating. Yes. He got loose lipped with an fbi agent, but he wasn't cooperating So with little dave, he obviously knew this atf agent. I think he had known him It was it was the same atf agent that had been in every national round. I mean he was the one First of all, he's been the main one to ever be involved in pretty much all motorcycle investigations He's been doing it forever Um and second of all, he's he's the main face of of that that organization when it comes to You know all their investigation stuff. So anytime there was a big mongol party national run He was the one always showing up. So everyone was familiar with that guy Right. Um, and you know, george christy even said I think on his interview with you guys how you know There's always one cop that's usually assigned to whatever group or that chapter And no one's friends with them, but they know each other, right? You're running into each other all the time Hey, you guys are gonna behave this weekend, right? You know, there's that cash that I wouldn't say casual But you know, I'm saying that that basic conversation Um, and I think that's been normal in clubs over the years But when it's used, you know, it could also be used against you pretty quickly I would say that caveat to your story versus dave's is there's not a shred of paperwork that ever shows dave ever said anything Um, which is you know, I would say he he was vindicated Um, but he did you know, I can't say that that I agree or disagree with the the quote unquote relationship he had But it wasn't familiar as and they saw each other all the time Yeah, let me pick up on something else. I want to ask you about um Just from a civil libertarian perspective the idea that the government would Try to ban the um, you know, uh, the logo of being a mongol. This is something Scott I talked about months ago just privately. I remember he was telling me that that uncle sam was trying to do that And I remember texting back. Well, isn't there it called me crazy. I'm not a lawyer But isn't there a first amendment issue here like like freedom of assembly and freedom of freedom It's not illegal to be a part of a motorcycle club. Well, they got used to do something illegal in furtherance of a conspiracy within that Club and the government took that leap where they essentially made it look like a corporation like mcdonald's or or Look at all the hedge fund stuff or whatever That they were able to to use to take the copyright or to take the patch trademark Because it was used in furtherance of the organization. So you're right. They can't do it and and the you know It's been proven in the justice system now that they can't do it But it had to go to the supreme court to get there I mean the at this time a judge was willing to try it The and the government was trying really hard to push it and I think a lot of people don't realize how much world cooperation There is a motorcycle club law enforcement um, and a lot of The american atf has been involved in a lot of these laws are being passed in australia and germany where that are banning Patches so they're kind of trying to see what works where and then you know Thankfully we have a constitution and it's harder to do those things here But it's not for lack of trying and they definitely gave it uh, they're all I mean This case is still ongoing and it started in 2018 And you know if you something else that that is interesting you mentioned is that Yeah, that's great that the paradigm is over so like if law enforcement is still using this paradigm from the 70s and 80s to um You know in terms of what what their policies are now that that's archaic And but I think how that works is how I would explain it to my students who some of them are cj majors Is you know once it becomes institutionalized like you said there's like one dude who's kind of like in charge of it And i'm not trying to shit talk this person. I don't know that I don't know that agent, but like um like um institutions it takes a long time for them to update and reform and change their ways And if it becomes institutionalized like this is the paradigm We're going to see uh one percenter clubs Um, it could take decades for it for it to change um, I mean and and If you we even see this a little bit was like was like new york like if this is the way the fbi makes headlines They want to bust Italian guys. They just bust it. Yeah, they don't care if they're geriatrics They have one foot in the grave and that all the money they put into building that case is going to be Wasted because the guy's going to be dead in a year, which is what happened a couple years ago with the colombos They spent all this money to to take down the guys out of Andy The recent one they got the guys for running uh, some some sports betting, which is pretty much legal now anyhow But but that becomes the that's for promotion. They get promotions Right, even if it's an outdated paradigm if you could comment I think the money's an important part that is often overlooked You know, there's these gang experts that get paid extra to be experts They get paid extra to teach of these you know to go in front of law enforcement and do these other You know these different trainings And because a they're from law enforcement and be their labeled experts They have a position of authority so people are just going to believe what they say, you know And especially other law enforcement new recruits, you know, you think oh this guy's been in the game a long time He knows what he's talking about Um, and and so that's how that gets spread and absorbed so easily But the hard part is is these dudes are getting paid to be experts They're often uh applying for funding, you know saying oh this is such bad in our in our area in our city This motorcycle gang is such a big deal. We need more officers. We need more equipment So there's a lot of money tied in to the narrative that law enforcement or that motorcycle clubs are Our criminal gangs because that's you know, people are making money off it. There's starting units over it There's big investigations over it So, you know, it'd be really hard press for them to come out and say, you know what the last several years They haven't really been doing that stuff Because people are gonna be out of jobs and be making less money and and I think people overlook that Yeah, and um one thing that when I assigned to my class is to look at the FBI gang report I think the most recent one is 2016 And I say, okay, let's look at the key findings and all the key findings are gang crime is up outlaw motorcycle clubs are more dangerous than ever um, and I asked my students Before we even get it to like the the data and like the methodology, which which mooch knows He's a scholar. We haven't even gotten to that yet, but what we will um, so mooch, you know Understands that before we even get into like the methods of collecting the data I asked my students, what what would you expect the FBI to say? What would you expect the doj to say? Do you think they're going to release a report that says everything's cool? We've conquered the problem. It's over with. They're no all retiring. What would you expect them? The war on drugs is over. I guess we can close down the dea. Yeah, of course. They're not gonna say it, right? Of course, right. So and and and I then I asked my students, you know, you know, you don't you don't have to just Be skeptical because I'm asking you to be But sometimes you have to recognize that with any source There's an agenda, right? And then you have to break it down and look at the nuances and look at how the data is collected and things like that For sure. So that just reminds me of that when you know, he said, yeah, there's an incentive a financial Incentive that the resources are tied to these certain narratives that may be outdated So and then the guy pushing the narrative is a respected guy in law enforcement So the rest of law enforcement just eat it up no one questions it and then it just keeps getting passed along and passed along There's such I can't overemphasize this in in my Now going on 17 17 18 years of doing this There's such a thin line at the highest level of law enforcement and the criminals that they pursue And and some of them will be honest about it. I mean Giovanni Rocco Uh, who's, you know, one of the most decorated undercover FBI agency took down the decalvacante family in New Jersey But he said but he also he said to me he's I have no problem saying this if I didn't become a law enforcement If I hadn't become a member of law enforcement, I would have been a really good mob boss I would have been a really good biker boss. That's what I would have done if I hadn't have gone in this direction Um, so it's these guys I used to take everything that the government told me as gospel I got bit so many times early in my career Uh, they they they lie just as much if not more they mold a narrative that they want They tickle the wire. I got you. I mean, I remember early in my reporting I got used by the the FBI in Chicago. They kept on telling me that there was a bus coming down I kept on writing about this bus is they were just using it to tickle the wire for the guy that was the target Uh, you know, it's been 10 years later. He's never been arrested But I like shows like gangland that came out now comes out now was funded by the atf to a get guys to You know talk about on tv obviously talk about crimes, but also coincidentally were coming out right before big raids and potentially, you know Influenced jury pools. I mean they've been doing that that type of stuff influence in the media for a long time and they're good at it That's a good point. So um now back to your experiences So you're in so Cal And but eventually you make your way to the midwest and that's kind of want to pick up on that like That brings us into modern day and some of the stuff that I've been reporting And so I'm interested in this part of our conversation. This will probably uh, you know wind us down here But you you were at the forefront of the mongols coming into the midwest I know I reported something around that time period because I had I had people in detroit telling me that there was a some type of Rally a bike rally in in michigan where there were a bunch of mongols And they'd never seen mongols before and I remember reporting that and then I didn't really report anything on the mongols being in the midwest until 2022 so just kind of maybe take us to tell us what you know What what part you played in it and what kind of the overall Idea behind it. Okay. Yeah, so I was in I did I finished up my undergrad in LA and went back to Oregon to finish graduate school So then by then I was trying to kind of get a job in the field And kind of a funny caveat to that is so, you know, I'm a mental health therapist I have my master's degree in social work and I was going to do my internship at the the Oregon youth authority I was going to be a counselor for the kids in the youth authority And they sent me an address to for where this training is and checking for training And I didn't think anything of it and I nabbed it the morning and I get there All excited for training and I look up and I'm at the I'm at the police academy the Oregon State Police Academy So, uh, you know, I'm walking in thinking I'm just being arrogant. No one here doesn't know who I am I guess I walked back past the state chief of police as I walked in And I'm I think I made it through half a day before they pulled me out and kicked me out of there Um, and I got fired from the internship for being a member even though they asked me or you remember the Mongols And I said I was um, and I was I was fired. So I sued the state and I won Um, because to see the state for discrimination But even though I won it was all over the paper right was all in the news that this mongo was in social work And sued the state so finding a job was starting to be pretty difficult At the time I was getting really really heavy into jujitsu and I met, um, uh, jujitsu team That's out of mount Vernon, Illinois That was really getting along with and really wanted to start training with and then my wife who was just my girlfriend at the time She was starting to get a get into grad school for dietetics and nutrition And what she was going to go to Oregon state and when we were looking at it Siu Southern Illinois University had a really good program too So things just kind of lined up where we thought about just moving out here and giving it a shot and I think the funny part of that is I was actually so at the time I was overseeing all of the northwest for the Mongols I was overseeing all of the out-of-country chapters At a lot of my plate and so I was honestly Trying to move to the midwest to maybe settle down and possibly retire And I you know, we didn't really play out that way, but um When I got out here there was already so that when you we talked about michigan They the Mongols tried to start a michigan chapter without going through the proper channels Um, and when I moved out here, we found out about it and shut it down So when you there was I think there was one or two guys that lived there Um, but when you hear that they probably went to something and try to make a presence and and they get this chapter established And I didn't really get off the ground. They've they've had in an indiana chapter since I think 2005 2006 They had indiana or maybe it was right around time I joined but there was one chapter there at the time Um, and then arkansas had had some chapters But outside of that we really didn't have much We had a small chapter in kansas city, but when I moved here there was two members Um, so when I came out here, you know, I was mainly doing jiu-jitsu went to work was working And um, I don't know if this is someone that you guys took a training from or not, but so, uh, I started out here When I was doing my mental health therapy. I started out with I was doing both, um drug and alcohol counseling And then I was running a group for uh perpetrators of domestic violence called men challenging violence and was teaching men, you know Kind of a feminist perspective and not how to how not to treat how not to hit women and how to treat women Um, so I was doing this training and there was this big thing called the meth conference Um, and it was you know, was that a college campus? And what they did is like they had, you know, these little kind of like breakaway courses I'm sure you guys have been to trainings like that where there's like Everyone gets together for the overall and then you can break away and take separate side classes Well, one of the breakaway classes was called out on motorcycle gangs and uh, you know, I was pretty intrigued I was like cool. I'm gonna check this out You know, I just moved out here. There's no way that no one out here knows who I am And I get in there and it was a state police detective that I guess is in that outlaw motorcycle gang investigators unit Um, and I'm sitting in there and he's just staring at me and I kept thinking I'm just being arrogant There's no way this guy knows who I am We slams his computer and he walks out and another detective comes in and says, oh, you know, uh detective I don't want to say his name but detective so-and-so had to leave And uh, we're just gonna do one on street gangs instead Well, just like what happened to me at the state bar at the training Back in Oregon, they pulled me out and they accused me of being like a They thought I was infiltrating this training so that I could see What this guy's training was what what they talk about and he made it like this big secrecy thing like, you know Bikers can't see this training about bikers. It was a big deal So I got kicked out and they they actually tried to get me fired from for my job Which didn't pan out for them tried to get me kicked out of my out of my gym by telling them You know, hey the Mongols are infiltrating and they're doing all this stuff They went to the police here in Mount Vernon and tried to try to say keep ticketing them and get them out of town and So I went from coming out here to retired and things getting pretty hot. Um And thankfully things things worked out, but at the time I didn't really have any interesting in growing out here I I had been doing all the major sit-downs with the outlaws for several years I was the main one that talked with them and I knew this was their area You know, I'd spoke with them and let them know I was gonna live here When I moved here, I was hanging out with them quite a bit as a friend and as a guest And I was really, you know, kind of establishing that relationship. So There wasn't a huge interest in growing the area right away When it did happen There was a group that came from the hardcore scene And so we had a lot of mutual friends and kind of younger guys They're all big weightlifting guys and a lot of tattoos and they're all riding and I guess they'd been hanging out With some of the other local clubs, but they don't really fit in and we really hit it off And they one day they just asked me if they if if they could start a chapter and if they could join the club Um, and like I said, I don't really want to do it. So I put a lot of thought into it And I was talking back and forth with little Dave Most of these guys lived in Illinois on the like Alton side But out of respect for the outlaws, we didn't want to you know, just I told them I wasn't out here to start chapters So I didn't want to just come in here and be a liar and step on their toes So we kicked off the st. Louis chapter and I think that's When law enforcement started really noticing we were there because we were very active was pretty big on social media It was very similar to when we started in Oregon. A lot of the st. Louis clubs didn't want us there I did a lot of sit-downs a lot of clubs started building some relationships there from there. I started rebuilding Kansas City Several years later, we kicked off like the Ozarks um, Indiana grew to about four chapters Nashville started a chapter and then Things um things with the outlaws kind of started falling apart over different different regions different reasons and some of our agreements fell apart And so I started the southern Illinois chapter and at that time I'll start the Chicago chapter Which is probably what you're talking about as far as what's been reported in the media a lot Well, I want to throw it some throw something at you that I reported in the last like 48 hours and kind of Plays into what what you're seeing so You know the the Chicago Tribune put out a story last fall predicting a war between the Mongols and the outlaws referencing A couple shootouts that had occurred nobody was killed, but there were people that were wounded Uh in 21 and then in 22 Yeah, I mean, uh, I would say I don't I'm not an investigative reporter. So, you know, I know it's different research agenda but I I just know from talking to some Chicago outlaws off the record that Sometimes how you frame things can Uh shift the meaning so for example like telling me like About the so-called Italian mafia outlaw alliance that a guy was telling me Do we know some of the Italians? Sure. Do some of them that was yeah Do we run into each other sometimes and it maybe have a drink or something? But but but but if you say alliance then it becomes sort of conspiratorial And he was telling me there's nothing like there's nothing like that in place It's all we sit down like in the godfather Well, I'm not trying to push back on your guy, Jimmy, but I mean in 2000 I'm just talking about with detail. I don't I don't know. I'm talking about the Italians too I mean in 2008 the bus that took down fat Mike Sarno who was the boss of The Chicago mafia there were a number of outlaws that were indicted and convicted with him So I think even in that case they were employed by those guys, but that wasn't the organization wasn't employed by those guys Okay, but Some of this is splitting hairs But if you're you can't tell me if you're an outlaw that no there's nothing going on with The Italian mafia when the boss of the Chicago mafia and three members of the outlaws are convicted together Of a conspiracy to extort Video poker machine, but you can't have it both ways though You were you were just talking about how you don't trust the government and their liars and they're they manipulate so But conviction is a conviction As of the the u.s. Government considers I will argue the conviction is a conviction thing if you start looking at the plea bargain process And all that and how racketeer the rico indictment goes I'm gonna say I have zero doubt in my mind and in jimmy's research can can say what he says and Justin i'm not trying to discount what either of you are saying I know for sure that mike sarno had a working relationship with the chicago outlaws You can define it whatever way you want and I don't know anything about that man It's not you know, it's not a club I was in and it was an error before me But as far as like having firm, I mean formal alliances with street gangs It's usually not something the moguls would do But I don't know what I don't know what formality that mike sarno uh made With the outlaws. I just know that they were working together And sarno was using the outlaws as muscle in in in an attempt to extort Yeah, I remember that and and uh shake down video poker machine Yeah, I know from when I was in leadership in this area We didn't we never did anything like that if that's happening now then that's again that was two That was in the 2000. So I don't know what's happening now Well, I mean even now with with the chicago thing like you were talking about That's not something we ever did under my leadership and now there's new leadership So I I guess I just can't speak on it because I'm not sure Well, so let's talk about what what you're doing now mooch, uh, obviously, you know, you're you're well educated and Are involved in counseling, but you're also involved in a lot more than that as a content creator author Tell us about what you've got going on now and how our audience can find out more about about what you're up to Yeah, so after you know, I spent just about 15 years in the mongols And eventually retired and stepped away I am just to be upfront clear if they're when I'm in bad standings due to my relationship with little dave But either way, so I spent 15 years in that club when I stepped away It really opened some doors for me to start doing things that we're not allowed to do in the club And a lot of that is doing stuff like this Um, and so at first my first thing was I started uh mondays with mooch, which is a podcast Uh, you know just a youtube channel and my my goal with that is really just to kind of tell some of my life story You know, I've lived a lot of different lives from between punk rock skin head life You know jiu-jitsu and training and then being in a one percenter club and then you know being a Social worker and a mental health therapist and so I really just like telling my story So most of my episodes are a clip or some sort of glimpse of my story And then when I interview people or have people on it It's usually someone that has a different perspective about the same story So I had like the singer to my old band was on Um, you know, I'm gonna have a guy on that was an old skinhead gang with me Um, so it's really just focused on kind of me telling my story and and trying to keep things really positive and talk about You know positive cool stuff and fun stuff that we did And then from that I got ended up offered got offered a book deal Um, so it's gonna be a book about my life And I will say this I did I used to not really agree with Bikers or mob guys or whoever writing, you know profiting off of their club But the the one thing I'll say is the Mongols was just a part of my story and and as we kind of glossed about or talked about today Um, you know the the Mongols were a big part of my life But it was part of my story and so the book isn't just about the Mongols It's about you know me touring and me growing up and being in the band and then and then You know me leaving the club and really getting into social work and you know trying to help others Um, and then since then too, we've kind of started this thing called lift train ride movement We're really trying to motivate people to stay in shape and be healthy and and work out You know ride motorcycles and you know just do positive things We just linked up with a well-known jujitsu guy Tom de Blas We're getting on an anti-bullying campaign and helping him out with that So just trying to move forward doing some really positive stuff a lot of the stuff that I learned growing up through club world Um and keeping it positive Yeah, I mean that sounds awesome and I know that we we don't have a lot of time to get into it now But I've watched some of your videos and talking about mental health and something we share an interest in is Outreach to at-risk youth and so I think that it's it's great what you're doing and and it's really important I saw this in one of your other episodes where it's really important that at-risk youth hear this from dudes like you Like, you know, if I go in there, it's like the square phd You know, it may not resonate, but someone like you that that's lived the life I think it's really important that what you're doing and it's and I wish you well Thank you very much. Yeah one thing that I think people don't really understand a lot about counseling So you've done it right is that the therapist never shares his story because it's not about me But because of my appearance and how I carry myself you're going to pick that up anyways And I think with teenagers that goes a super long way and that's right now I work with youth that are on parole operation from 12 to 17 years old that have anti social behaviors Um and we really figure out what's driving the behavior and try and create lasting changes so that the parents and the kids Can make changes when we're no longer in the home. So it's been really rewarding and really cool Um and then like said I did the domestic violence training too where I'm trying to teach people not to hit their women and You know jump into the into the new century and and be you know be real men So it's it's been really cool and it's it's been it's been a blessing. It's been a lot of fun I can't wait. I can't wait to read the book. Yeah, I appreciate Your time and and all your efforts and yeah when when the book comes out Any any timeline and when we should expect that to drop Yeah, the publisher the publisher keeps saying that's going to be out by spring But um, I'm I'm assuming probably early summer. Um, because I'm not sure how it's going to be done in two months But um, by the way, we're getting there. We're cranking it out. Things are going really well. So definitely early this year or mid-year Yeah, well, we hope to have you back on when when it drops and we could talk about it and then uh, Any any uh, social media or anything you want our audience to check out your stuff? Yeah, I'm on uh, instagram It's og underscore underscore mooch. Um, and honestly, I pride myself in the fact that I get back to everybody So, you know reach out shoot a message ask questions or something. I can help you with I would love to So follow me on there my facebook. I kind of keep just like family and friends So instagram's the big one and then, you know, it's the mooch on youtube or monday's with mooch You know, I hope I hope mooch I can't thank you enough for joining us And and being as forthright as you have you're incredibly articulate Obviously, you're very intelligent based on your, you know, what you've accomplished um I really hope that this is the the start of a connection in a relationship between, you know mooch and and his brand and og podcast because People like you are just invaluable really, uh that can You know break down from a break down an issue from a firsthand perspective make it digestible to you know regular People that haven't lived in that subculture make it relatable Uh, I've I've just been blown away by this interview. So thank you so much And I hope we can have you on more than just one more time. I hope you come back five or ten more times Yeah, I would love to man You know, it's kind of my goal to push back against this law enforcement narrative like we talked about and and you know I said I've listened to your guys' shows and you know, it's funny when I hear things like, oh, yeah You know law enforcement says all that, you know The mongo started making this big move in this big push in this big presence than me. I'm like, oh man That was me coming You know, so being able to show the actual facts and truths behind it. I'm really happy to do and help with any time Yeah, well, we appreciate your time mooch. Good luck with everything and I'll stay in touch with you and hopefully We'll see you again soon. Thanks. Justin. Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate you having me on take care Thanks everyone for listening and watching and uh, we'll talk to you guys soon. OG podcast out