 Good evening and welcome to Ten Meaning Television's continuing coverage of Election 2020. November 8th is Election Day. Of course, now you can vote at any time. You always could vote at any time, but now more than ever you're encouraged to vote at any time, including the day itself, Tuesday, November 8th. We're glad this evening to be welcoming the candidates for there's a new district number. What is the new district number? Chittin' in 23, which is Essex. Because there was redistricting, so we have all new numbers, and it's Chittin' in 23, and it's four candidates, including one incumbent, for the two seats for the district. So this evening, I'm very happy to welcome Ray Garrafano, who's running as a Democrat. She is an incumbent. And Leonora Dodge, who's also running as a Democrat. And Marieze Marieze. Marieze Dunbar, who's running as a Republican. Marieze Dunbar, that's the anxiety that of the moderator is getting the names. And Dennis White, who's running as a Republican. So we welcome you this evening to call us at 862-3966, and we're going to start with opening statements. And why don't we start with you, Ray Garrafano? Why are you running and what qualifies you for the position of legislator in Vermont? Thank you, Lauren. And thank you, town meeting for hosting us today. As some of you might know, I was appointed in January of this year to represent Essex by Governor Scott. And it's been my absolute honor to serve in that capacity and serve my community. I am proud of the work that we did this, the half of the biennium when I got there in passing some historic legislation to really put really big investments in the economy and the future of Vermont. And we being able to leverage federal funding, massive amounts of federal funding to really pass and invest in our future here. We also passed historic legislation to amend our constitution to protect reproductive liberty and prohibiting slavery as plainly as possible in our constitution. I am running for re-election because there's still so much work to be done. We continue to have serious major problems in our communities. We are continuing to have a housing crisis. Our child care system is at a breaking point and we have workforce shortages that impact our whole entire economy. These are the issues that I hear about from my neighbors and friends and as a public servant, as a mom and a person of color in Vermont, I feel like I bring the right perspective to policy making decisions in Montpelier. Thank you so much. Leonora Dodge, tell us why you're running and what qualifies you for the position. Yes, first thank you again to Town to Meeting TV for hosting and like all of us here, all of the candidates especially, I love Vermont. I am so glad that we picked this state as our home 22 years ago where we've raised our family. What sets me apart is that I'm a trilingual Latina who grew up in Montreal and Mexico. I've lived abroad in Chile, Spain, Guatemala, and for my entire life I've been bridging cultures and seeking compassion and understanding. In Vermont I've done that by running Spanish play groups with Building Bright Futures, teaching Spanish at Champlain College, and coordinating the Essex Westford International Potluck dinners. When the pandemic decimated the staffing at our schools, I went to become a paraeducator and classroom assistant in the Spanish immersion program at Jericho Elementary. These opportunities and this activism have helped me to get to know my fellow Vermonters and they've also given me insight into the very profound challenges that we face. Being priced out of housing, massive health care costs, and child care challenges are profoundly challenging to so many Vermonters today. And all of these issues affect Black and Brown Vermonters even more profoundly. So I'm running so that I can share my unique cultural perspective, my collaborative approach, and my optimism to help all Vermonters. Thank you so much, Leonora. Marie Dunbar. Well again, thank you for the honor of having me here today. I chose to run for a number of reasons. One is to give Vermonters a choice on the opposite side. It's important to give people a chance to think equally as this forum does. So I became a registered nurse. I came to Vermont from New Hampshire to learn nursing and then I ran a private small business for 28 years and during that time I traveled quite extensively. I went to Africa, went to Israel, went to Mexico, and a variety of places which really gave me also a cultural perspective on things. And people around the world are very interesting. And then basically, I have been involved in the GOP local committee for 10 years. I've assisted with a lot of events. And I ran for this particular office two years ago and here I am again. I just really am concerned about some things that I'm seeing that are happening not only in Vermont but around the world. I really am running because I'm concerned for children and grandchildren. The future right now is troubled and I want to do everything in my power to have a good economic educational experience. That's my efforts. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Dennis, tell us why you're running and what qualifies you for the position. Dennis White. Okay, I was born and raised right here in Vermont. I've been a master electrician for 45 years. I have no political experience but at one point every politician had no experience. And in my lifetime I've watched this great state go from deep red to deep blue and I'm not especially enamored with that scenario. So I decided that it's my civic duty to step up to the plate and get involved primarily to give my Republican brothers and sisters someone to vote for because quite often these days there are few or no Republican candidates on the ballot. I'm also hoping to squelch some of the nonsense and hypocrisies that have been coming out of Montpellier of late. All right, well I hope we hear a little bit about those as we go on in the debate. So thank you so much, Dennis. All right, Leonora, why don't we start with you on the education question. The legislature can make impacts on how education is funded statewide. Do you see the need for changes and how we fund education and how would you use your office to move that forward? Great, well, so there are two sides to talking about education and money. On the one hand the raising money, so that's through taxes. And I think that our goal needs to be to pay taxes in proportion to your wealth. I think that right now there's a discussion afoot about switching from our current property-based tax system which can be problematic for people who are now living in properties that are suddenly worth so much more. So if you're on a fixed income but your house is now worth so much it's going to be onerous for you to pay that based on that. So switching to taxing based on your income makes sense to me. So that's a great discussion. And then conversely on the spending side there's also a lot of discussion on funding in proportion to the greatest needs. And so I think that we need to look at lower income students that might need access to technology after school and summer school programming, rural students that might have issues with internet connectivity and transportation, English language learners that certainly need extra instruction to thrive. And then finally, hungry students cannot learn. I saw that as a paraeducator directly and I saw what a wonderful thing universal school lunches was. I would definitely try to continue that not just for the next year and maybe fund that with taxing sugary drinks. Aside from funding obviously we have other important issues like racism and homophobia in the school. So but that's not funding although it should be. All right well thank you very much. Maria Dunbar tell us about your approach to education if you're to be elected. Well I think there are many concerns. Education is not good enough anymore. There are many as you mentioned Leonora. There are many ways of teaching that I think need to be put aside and let's just say I believe that we need to, what am I trying to say? We need to pay according to the results and right now the records and the tests show that our students are going down. They're not doing as well and there's a lot of social emotional learning being done which is fine but I'd like to see a little bit less of that and more of the the reading writing and arithmetic and I also somewhat believe in private schooling putting our taxes towards private schooling. If the teaching is not up to par then people's taxes rightfully should go towards a school that provides adequate education and don't get me wrong. I think there are many wonderful teachers. Many teachers are doing a fabulous job and but but the scores are going down. If only we've all noticed how many people working at cash registers these days don't even know how to count your change. So I just would like to see instead of taxing people more I would really like to see funding go towards results. Are the results good? Give more money. So that's about it. Thank you so much, Maurice. Dennis White tell us about your thoughts on education, education financing and how you would use the office to move your agenda forward. That's a question that the state's been wrestling with forever. There's no good solutions. I have no solutions but whatever model is proposed will certainly have its inequities whether it's property tax based or income tax based. You know you can't please all the people all the time. The current model seems to be working and people are used to it so you know if it ain't broke don't fix it. Whatever the answer is though it should include no more taxes. We're being taxed to death as it is. If school districts are having a problem with their budgets meeting their budgets then I suggest pruning their budgets especially like if a new school or addition needs to be built such as what Brenton High School is facing right now just build a square building. You have no idea the added construction costs whenever you deviate from just a plain box building. These buildings don't need to be Disneyland like architects fantasies. If you've ever seen the main lobby up at the UVM Health Center up here that's five stories of wasted space. I moved out of Williston 30 years ago because of the wasteful wasteful construction cost of the two schools in town there. Williston Central and the Allen Brooks schools just just a colossal waste of money in those two buildings. So you know just just keep the buildings simple. You'll save a few bucks. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ray Garifano your view of education and education financing in Vermont. Thank you. I agree with a lot of what Leonora shared earlier. I will say that I'm really proud of the work that we did this last session with 287 and changing the weights of how taxes are paid and how funding calculations are done for schools based on their need to educate the children that the students that they have. So that will do a lot to achieve equity as far as funding the different schools. I also am really excited about the conversations that are happening about changing the taxing model because I think that is a challenge. I will say just wanted to respond to something that Marie said. First of all I am hopeful like I just like you know what you were sharing was just sounded like you know I have a school age child in seventh grade right now and they are receiving an amazing education in Essex Westford and I'm so proud of the teachers and the administrators and the faculty and the staff what they provided for us during COVID continuing to educate our kids continuing to reach out to the kids that didn't have the right technology and really being in touch was phenomenal and they're all completely burned out and we have very little supports for them so I think as a community we owe those teachers administrators faculty and staff to really show our appreciation and continue supporting them. I also think when you change funding model to look at results and fund based on good results there's been a lot of studies that show that that can be problematic with schools being motivated to change or only focus on students that will achieve higher results and a lot of better resource schools end up getting more funding which is extremely inequitable and we've seen that happen over and over again across the country and here so I just advocate for continuing to support our teachers our schools and having a structure that provides a free public high quality education to all of our children. Thank you. Marie, do you have a follow-up? Yes I just want to add to what you said that I'm just concerned about teachers are great and they did they're wonderful and they did suffer a lot during the COVID and it seems as though a lot have left because of the stress so they teachers are have gone through so much but my concern is the extreme permeating of the system of the social emotional learning it's it's almost more than true education in some cases you know it's start it's not a specific class it's just stressed and I know this it's stressed that they need to the teachers need to incorporate this into all of their classes even math or science it doesn't matter they have to incorporate something that includes the social emotional teachings and you know there are there's counseling available there's there I would suggest after school support groups just a variety of things I'm trying to keep this short but it's too much so let's get back to the basics and as far as results I don't have the statistics you probably do but it just makes sense that if schools are not doing very well and I'm not saying they aren't but my experience is that in what I've learned is that the the grade scores are going down and you know something has to change any follow-up to that should we move on to the next we can move on yeah okay thank you all right so I'm going to actually expand your time to two minutes to answer things because you're all rather than cutting you off in a minute and a half because you have more to say so let's say let's go to health care the increasing cost of health care is putting pressure on vermoners and the state's economy it's the biggest expenditure in our budget and probably in most of our households COVID has sharpened our focus on the inequities what's next for health care changes in Vermont can you be specific and I think we start with you Maurice okay well I think the word inequities needs to be described or defined the answer that I come up with with that question is that the rates in hospitals are already fixed but there are inequities and salaries starting with the the CEOs of the hospital and CEOs and there are just some areas of the hospital that are the same and inequitable some good doctors have left the system and left Vermont because because so much is demanded of them with little equitable pay also travel nurses are so needed and they're they come here so well equipped but they're getting paid so much that it has caused a lot of our regular nurses to to complain and and even become travel nurses themselves so the staff comes and goes and you know I think that something needs to be done that we do need to attract travel nurses so I'm not really sure what needs to be done but you know we need to do some more research and see what what could become more equitable and are there other aspects of inequity that you want to address in health care I mean what what kind of additional policy changes would you advocate if you were in the legislature I would have to do some research I'm not sure right yeah very good thank you Dennis your your approach to health care and changing any big changes you see well I don't really understand how the high cost of health care is considered a drain or a pressure on the state's economy I mean health care is a huge huge business and it employs a boatload of people these businesses and the employees they pay taxes and they spend their money here so you know how how is that detrimental to the economy I'm also not sure what inequities that the question is referring to but you know if it's if it's health insurance inequities then then I would have to say this that that everywhere you look these days there's help wanted signs everywhere and I'm pretty sure that every business that employs 10 or more people is required to offer some sort of health insurance plan so I would suggest people seek employment with you know such businesses thank you yeah thank you I think just to clarify the question there isn't inequity in how health care services are distributed based on who has insurance who can afford to pay for the premiums and who can afford to pay for the out-of-pocket so a lot of those policies are high deductibles and they're really expensive for people and they're I mean there's inequity in all aspects of any of these policy questions but I think that's where we were headed with that so Ray Garifano would you like to respond to the question about health care and sure how to rein it in yeah so what when I think of the inequities and health care I think about what COVID showed us that especially for marginalized populations new Americans and people of color I think it was a real wake-up call for our health department and I work for state government and I saw that very close up that you know in the very beginning there was questions about maybe wondering are we being inequitable and are we doing enough maybe we are doing enough but what it turned out and I'm really proud of what the State Department of Health did because they did prioritize they did put investments and attention and intentional work in making sure that BIPOC communities marginalized communities new Americans were getting prioritized vaccine clinics more access to the health care that was needed in a really really difficult time so I'm really proud of that work that the state has done I will also say that we at the legislature this last session we invested massive amounts of American rescue plan for increasing the number of students seeking nursing degrees and recruiting more nurses in Vermont educating them there was a problem where we didn't have enough lab space to actually like educate the nurses that they need to actually do the practice nursing and so during their education so there was a lot of investment made in that which we're going to see results of very soon and then the health equity advisory committee which I believe was established last year before I got to the legislation that will have a lot of really great recommendations for us in the state house and other lawmakers and policy makers into what exactly you know they're doing a whole survey of our health system in Vermont and looking at the inequities and lastly the Vermont health department recently received the very large grant for health disparities and now it has a huge team of people that are really intentionally working at embedding racial equity and equity work throughout the health department in every area of health care so that's going to really set us up well for the next few years and hopefully we'll become leaders in the region if not the country and focusing on this work and removing some of the inequities. Wonderful thank you so much. Leonora would you like to comment on this question regarding healthcare distribution of it and the outcomes? Yes I would and I want to again just like the pandemic was so tough on educators obviously it was also for health workers and nurses so I think that Vermont is on the right track you know trying with like Dr. Dinosaur and with the community health centers to catch people that fall through the cracks what you've just mentioned about the inequities right people that can't afford you know if you have a small business you don't have the 10 people how do you how do you get decent health care I have known so many entrepreneurs that you know struggle with that and you know there these these other programs that are state funded are sort of stop gaps for an overall system that is that is private it feels like insurance buying insurance is like you're putting chips on a casino table and then you roll the dice and you hope that you don't get into a horrible accident or come down with a debilitating horrible illness or chronic disease and that seems insane I grew up in a place and have lived in many countries where instead of having massive private insurance be the overall system you have a public system that supports everybody and then you know maybe complimentary private you know optional insurance for for for some folks who want that you know and then the big question is is is that system working for us in in this country and and and the answer is no we spend public and privately funded we spent almost twice as much as countries that are not communist socialist dictatorships with you know horrible economies I mean compared to Canada New Zealand Australia France Germany you know England we are spending so much but the main question is are we healthy and the answer to that is no we are dying earlier we are being hospitalized and dying from treatable diseases we have fewer doctors and we visit the doctors less so I think that you know great to do that gap just but we need to overhaul the system from from um overall private to considering a public system that will help all people thank you very much Leonora I just want to remind our viewers our number is 862 3966 if you have a question for our candidates we'd love to hear it we would always love to hear your questions we come up with them here but we like your questions the best all right so Dennis we are going to start with you Dennis White and the question is criminal justice reform um how there's a bunch of questions here do you think policing needs reform do you think the community feels safe do you think changes need to be made to improve the safety of our community well there's a large sector of the population that is getting shortchanged by this defund the police fad um the hardworking taxpayers are not getting their money's worth and and that is socially unjust over the past couple years though the police have received their comeuppance and and they've been reformed a little bit and now it's time to refund the police and and get back to good old-fashioned law and order um you know when I was a young fellow I uh I had my share run-ins with Johnny Law and uh you know that's the norm at that age you you're you're you know being a long-haired loudmouth know-it-all but as you age and and you have a family and you acquire property in a house you you learn to appreciate law enforcement more and and uh how important they are and I wholeheartedly support the police and the emergency responders and and the role their role in public safety thank you all right thank you very much Ray Garifano thank you um and on criminal justice reform yeah so um just to clarify we have not defunded the police in Essex our police budget actually went up um so we have funded them more and I do believe in the work that our police do in Essex but also other resources that we have such as the community justice center that do restorative justice work um and you know when you look at um criminal justice you have to look at the root cause of the problem and this country I think has not invested in creating a social safety net for vulnerable people when folks have substance use disorders when they have mental health challenges when they have housing crisis or food insecurity we don't have easy way for those folks to access help and support which often leads to problems and involvement with the criminal justice system so there's no easy answer it's a very complex issue obviously but I think that um you know in Essex our police department has been very active working with our community justice center with select board with our city counselors in Essex Junction and working with community organizations that are working on racial equity and educating people in Essex and our community about racial equity and how that involvement looks like for marginalized populations and police involvement and there's been a lot of good work happening so I want to see more of that and I don't oppose restructuring the funding so maybe more funding goes to mental health services or restorative justice or substance use prevention because often we ask our police departments to respond to things that they're not equipped or have the skills or the training to respond to and that's not fair to them and that's not fair to the person that's having the crisis or the problem so I think there's some creative work that can be done and I'm really happy to say that in Essex we're actually doing the work and work very closely with our police department thank you so much Leonora yes so I would say ditto to what Ray said I also think that we need to um uh support our law enforcement um I also think that we need to um you know not expect that police have you know police have become the the the last resort at the very end of um developments social developments for each individual that that lead to either a criminal or a violent life um or event um and that's that's too much to expect and so I know that um Essex has a a group called Essex best building equity solidarity and trust I think um we we need all of those things we need to build the trust we need that uh to to know that whether you're um black brown you know or white that you can call the police and and when you have a problem and not end up becoming the problem um we are blinded by bias in a lot of the the the searching for for crime solving crimes um UVM economist Stephanie Segwino did a study that took five years over 800,000 traffic stops were analyzed and what what what the study showed is that police in Vermont tend to stop three to nine times more a person of color a driver of color than a white person and even with that massively disproportionate uh you know um ratio of of traffic stops they still only found uh contraband of any type uh more they still only found more of that in white driver's cars so I think that um we can't forget that we all in this country have a bias whether you're an educator or a police or a healthcare provider and so it's important to to take that into account when thinking about police work and police reform thank you so much Marie's why don't we talk about criminal justice reform and how would you address community safety as a legislator well um first of all I want to thank you Ray for enlightening me that that uh we have not defunded the police in Essex but I I feel that defunding the police in Burlington has proven to cause problems word has gotten around to the criminals that they can do whatever they want you know almost every day you're hearing about another knifeing or another shooting and it's increasing there was recently uh an incident just a few days ago in Essex where a man took off with a bat in somebody's with to try to hit a person's in in their car and the poor woman was frightened to death and thankfully sped off safely but um um incidences are increasing and people are even robbing stores and they're not allowed to the store owners are not allowed to stop them because they're afraid someone will be injured somehow so word has gotten around that you can do anything you want so I think we need to give more respect back to the police and maybe even add more if necessary and uh and then we need to prosecute the criminals they're getting away with so much and a lot of criminals are being released and the word recently from someone in the legislature was that they don't release the dangerous ones well the truth is that the dangerous ones are released just as much as the others I know we're low on we're backlogged in the the courts and we're low on um jail space but we have to figure out a way to make a penalty so strong that they'll think twice before they commit a crime so again that would bear some research but to me upfront as a legislator I would just fund anything that supports the police and um bring some sort of uh uh information to the criminals that they will not get away with this thank you very much um I'm just going to ask kind of a lightning round question and starting with you Ray um what committee would you want to be on if you are real elected you were appointed so you're not being reelected but elected to the legislature uh I was assigned my dream committee um human services and had the chance of working with the amazing chair and pew for the you know short time but I would love to return to human services but um my skills also and my background also fit well with housing general affairs and the health care committees I've worked in human services my whole life uh or my career in Vermont in public service but honestly I am um I would be grateful to work on any committee I think you know the work is hard and um you know having served kind of being thrown in it um not at the beginning of session kind of mid-session a little bit um there's a lot of learning and it's really you know with my background I feel at least comfortable in human services or in housing general affairs but you know um it's also really cool to think about learning about another committee and another body of work and uh hearing from experts in that area to make policy decisions thank you Leonora Dodge what what committee would you seek out if you could choose um well I love I love human services also that's you know that's my my background and education um I see a lot of great great opportunities in um you know clean energy um and that's also a big passion and and um and housing has has I honestly I would be thrilled to get anywhere where I can get something done I was you know almost in tears talking to a friend of mine about how um how hopeful I am for our state and and what a pivotal moment we're at where we can truly make a difference and it always feels that way in Vermont right with you know being able to access our our legislators um so easily but um yeah so any any committee were where I I'm a good collaborator I'm a good team player thank you Maurice Dunbar where would you like to be sitting in the legislature well I think they're all wonderful and important but I think being able to choose I would go with the education committee because again I'm concerned about our children learning to a point that we can excel as we used to uh being able to compete with other countries and compete in our um heavy business system uh you know we need people that well let's just say that I think I'm concerned about the future I personally don't have any children in college or in school or grandchildren I have a daughter but she's grown and but I'm very concerned for all the other young people you know we need to have a competitive competitive system in this country and uh I guess that's it great yeah careful thank you Dennis tell us what committee you'd like to sit on oh maybe transportation so we can get the circumferential highway uh back on track and and completed the existing section of the circumferential highway is hands down the best thing that has ever happened to Chittenden County transportation the CERC originally it it passed muster with the Army Corps of Engineers with the federal courts and the EPA the EPA did not uh mandate that that uh we couldn't build a CERC they just suggested that an eternal alternative be found and it was uh it was shot down by Peter Shumlin and conservation law foundation and and conservation law foundation I don't know how that group gets party status because they don't have Vermont's best interest at heart thank you you're welcome they are building the CERC highway it's they're moving earth not the one oh not the CERC highway southern connector sorry I have it on my mind because it's Burlington it's very intense any any city any city that is a city has a ring road around it got it that's that's what we need now I'm visualizing what you're talking about thank you all right so good so let's go to the ballot issues there are two constitutional amendments proposition two and proposition five starting with you Leonora do you um what's your position on those two constitutional amendments and could you just clarify what they are in your answer oh yes absolutely okay so um we have uh prop two which is a proposition to amend article one and then we have prop five which is to amend article uh to add an article 22 um prop two amending article one is regarding the language in our constitution that was foundational to our to our state constitution um that sadly contains the original sin of you know of our of our national constitution as well which is you know it was supposed to eliminate slavery but what it actually did was it set up a system where there were caveats and exceptions where slavery was still okay um you know so if you were underage if you owed a debt if you were in prison um you or if you wanted if you preferred to be enslaved um you you could and um you know it's that's just not not okay for any of us I think that anybody any party would would agree with that in this um thank you yes um so you support that so I support proposition two in short I support proposition uh two to amend article one and then prop five um and in in part also because I just want to say um I think about migrant workers I think about prisoners who could be forced to to labor um and then prop five article 22 is to keep government out of personal health decisions regarding reproductive choice um and the reason we want it in our constitution is to um make sure that more restrictive laws that that government interference um cannot be achieved as easily by just changing a law if it is in our constitution then legally um our legislators are bound to keep government out of the decision making and leaving it a private uh private decision uh and you support that I also support that and I think that it it just keeps things the way that we have them currently having lost constitutional rights is is an absolute you know um travesty for for so much of our population so thank you yeah Maurice Dunbar how do you um sit on proposition two and proposition five well proposition two I agree we all agree that we want we support the uh the amendment as as it is written uh proposition five article 22 two names for the same thing uh I think that we need to explain to people that and many people already know this but it needs to be emphasized that full term abortion is already fully legal in Vermont so that's not a concern I really feel that the language is so vague in uh proposition five article 22 that it deceives um it's really vague and and the word abortion and woman is not even in prop five it's uh it it's vaguely worded that it's been said that some most lawyers can't even figure out what it says but it's the dangers of what could happen if that is passed um the possibilities are endless and a lot of them would end up in litigation with one or three unelected judges making decisions for everyone um and some of the scenarios include uh possibly parental rights being for over their children being removed in in uh in school parental rights school parental rights being removed you know and you know if I was a parent and something was being done to my child that I disagreed with if this law is passed then they could say sorry it's legal for us to continue this so there's there's a lot of litigation of all scenarios that would be possibly proceed so you don't support it I do not okay Dennis White what's your position on proposition two and five yes uh Ramon was the first state in the nation to abolish slavery back in 1791 and during a civil war we lost more soldiers per capita than any other state so I think our record speaks for itself uh the constitution already says that slavery is illegal and prop two only looks to add the term indentured servitude so I think it's a moot point and unnecessary prop five or article 22 and correct me if I'm wrong here that uh just a couple years ago the the Vermont legislature guaranteed the right to abortion in this state regardless of what the federal government says or does so so you can always get an abortion in this state is that correct um personally I'm neutral on abortion I can take it or leave it what you do with your body is your own business but the the vague wording of prop five goes uh above and beyond abortion it's it's a whole another ball of wax it's uh it's a horse of a different color it's going to open up a huge can of worms it's a prime example of being given an inch and taking a mile I feel that article 22 has an ulterior motive and uh no good can come from thank you all right thank you very much please do Leonora yeah so um the wording in the in the constitutional amendment is actually um designed based on prior legislation so the language two or five 22 so that's our our latest amendment right this is what a moment right we're talking about literally um our first our first article and now adding an article so I think it's a really it's an amazing ballot when you hold it in your hands you feel the weight of history in my mind anyway um what the amendment aims to do is exactly the opposite of what you are worried about it is meant to stop the potential for future litigation on this issue so that we don't get embroiled in in in awful scenarios and so it's you know the wording is based on uh on prior prior legislative language uh that is specific it is about reproduction it is not about anything else it's not about parental rights or um you know it it can't be taken to mean all of these other other things and it um protects um abortion at uh prior to the 22 week mark which is the way that it is right now protected in in um our state it's just trying to prevent anybody from taking away the rights that we do have so that um you know any decision that was to be made if a lot was going to be challenged if a law because laws are easier to challenge than constitutional amendments or constitutional articles um if it were to be challenged it would it would have to be you know um within this very important uh you know well if we're gonna let the government interfere in this decision um is it because there's a super important reason that the government could interfere and that's the only reason that the that it could change then Dennis you had a comment and then Maurice uh then it should have been worded that way exactly it should have been worded it's very loose it's very loose and who is Anne Cummings do you know Anne Cummings she's the head of senate finance okay well Anne Cummings is on record for saying that the wording is very vague on purpose in this bill so what is she getting at what what is the you know so and I agree with Dennis I mean if it's all that you say and it would be lovely if it was but there's nothing that says that when people are looking at this little short sentence reproductive autonomy what is that really uh and then there's another statement that doesn't explain itself very well either involving the government and it's just very deceiving I think that if we're going to pass something like this then um we need to uh make it clear thank you Ray Garifano your view on these two propositions I support both yours of doing this over two different biennial is because it's that important and we don't want the opportunity for it to be changed with every legislative session so the fact that it took four years two different sessions and it overwhelmingly passed with plenty of public comment opportunities with the governor support I think that says a lot for our state and I am really proud of the work that has you know gone into this because it intentionally it's not a simple thing to change your constitution so and you know we've seen yeah and we've seen in the last you know six months nationally why this is needed because when reproductive rights are taken away who is the first to be harmed poor people people of color marginalized communities and we need to protect vermonters from that kind of federal action but it's already protected fully it's law right now we need to enshrine it in our constitution so it's not a jeopardy well that would be fine if the wording is precisely written as you describe well and Maurice the the wording that was is on the ballot was overwhelmingly passed by both the house and the senate with many republicans voting for it so I will say we have to remember I'm sorry to interrupt but we have to remember that the state house is probably three quarters democrats and they always win every single vote that they attempt to put to pass that's why we have elections we live in a democracy well that's right but that's that you said it overwhelmingly passed but that's because your party is is overwhelming in the state house but has a majority just not to to argue but did you say the governor had also endorsed this legislation I mean this constitutional amendment or I maybe miss speaking there so don't quote me there but um it passed the house in the senate both two two different sessions okay and with with a lot of committee work which means that you would have to speak with specialists in the field I you know lawyers five percent democrats that's why I really feel we need to bring in more republicans well because the argument is the argument is that is that we want to protect abortion it is right right so so if we agree that that is something valuable to protect and we and legislators and lawyers have said this is the best way to do that then to me it's a no-brainer so I I think we're all clear on where you stand on these questions so and I appreciate the discussion and the elucidation and we're about at time for closing comments oh my god isn't that amazing I told you would go fast and um I'm any of you little time you don't have to do it in a minute um but I think we're going to start with you marise Dunbar on your closing comments on um what you would like to say to the community in order to have some for your vote their vote well I just want to say I'm running as I said earlier because I want to try to protect the freedoms and the rights of especially young people I think the and I also ran because I wanted to give voters a choice but I would be a fresh face in Montpelier someone with uh differing opinions and what's been happening for 48 years and um I just my main goal is to try to to um help the economy reduce crime and do everything within my power uh to help vermonders I'm a citizen just like all of you and uh I just want the best for vermont so I ask that for your vote and thank you very much thank you marise Dunbar I appreciate you being here tonight thank you it's an honor Dennis flight your closing comments thank thanks for the invite and good luck to everybody basically no new taxes and protect the first and second amendments um if you are concerned or frustrated or discouraged about defunding the police that our first and second amendment uh rights are being eroded uh about the status quo of government lately uh that the pledge of allegiance it hasn't isn't being recited in school anymore about the looming carbon tax which is set to include home heating fuels that in the not too distant future you will be forced to to drive an electric vehicle that school mascots uh are being stripped for no good reason uh well join the club um we we we need no new taxes we're being taxed to death now and and uh taking the guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens is is not the answer uh do public safety thank you thank you very much great to have you here Ray Garifano your closing comments thank you thank you again for providing this really important opportunity for us to highlight our priorities and our views on the topics um I'm a mom I'm an immigrant I'm a career public servant in vermont uh having work for family services my whole entire 17 year career I'm a community activist and an organizer the last six months in the Vermont house have been the honor of my life I didn't really think I was this was going to happen in my life at this time but uh it's really truly been an honor to serve Essex and really bring my perspective that is different um to the table making decisions and I would be really proud to serve Essex again uh and ask for your vote thank you very much leonard dodge yes so um thank you again so much and thank you for for all coming and for all caring so much so deeply that comes across yeah very much and um and that is why I love vermont that is why uh I um I was asked to run by fellow delegates and uh I strangely didn't think twice about it because I um really felt that this would be a uh positive um productive and effective way to give back to this wonderful state that we've gotten to call home my family and I for the past 22 years canvassing has been incredible I um really have enjoyed getting to hear people's ideas and um and I um so honored to have to for when people share their challenges and their their hopes we are at a really exciting time uh so much money pouring in so many important decisions being made um I'm really looking forward to bringing my uh insight my um spirit of collaboration to the state house and um thank you thank you very much it's just a pleasure to have you all here thank you for being with us we've been with the candidates in chitin in district 23 which is Essex and we are preparing for november 8th which is election day and we hope that you will all take the opportunity to vote because it is a great opportunity to see that your views are expressed in the chambers of government where decisions are made and don't forget to tune in at 730 on the 8th of november to our live results program here on town meeting tv and to watch all of the candidates and all of the forms that we have we're very pleased to bring those to you so thanks for watching and good night