 Hi everybody. Once again, are we not ready? This says it's live. Oh, we are. Okay. Hi. I just introduced myself and then told, was told we were not live. So I'm going to do it again like it's the first time. Hi. Me again. I'm so, so, so excited to have with us the amazing Eric Ting. Hi Eric. Hey Lauren, how are you? Good. Where, where are you calling us from, zooming us from? I'm actually zooming from Morgantown, West Virginia, my childhood home. Oh my gosh. Wow. I'm glad you're there. Glad to be here. Well, so these classes have become a really cool way to redefine what a class is, meaning a conversation, a chance to hear from experts and exciting people in the field as a way to gather, to create community, and also to kind of talk about theater as a way of generating it, even though we can't quite make it as we used to at the moment. So one of the first people I wanted to talk to was you, because you have not only an amazing career as a visionary director, I'll be winning director. I'm sure your bio will always have that right at the top. It's very cool. Eric was the associate artistic director at Longworth Theater, is the artistic director of California Shakespeare Theater right now, has directed new plays all over. And I will say one thing that struck me as all of our shelter-in-place orders were put in place here in the Bay Area. We were the first real big city to go under. I felt like, I think I said this to you, you kind of became the artistic director of the Bay Area to me, because you instantly became the director of the Bay Area. We're so generous with your time and everything from like Facebook posts and emails and using the resources of California Shakespeare Theater to connect artists, get them help and money, and find what the director of an institution is in the town. So I'm so grateful for that instinct. Oh yeah, thanks Lauren. Your video went a little wonky on me just now, and I can't decide if that's my connection or something else, but you're frozen. I'm frozen. I guess I'll just keep talking though. Hi everybody. Yeah, I think to Lauren's point about sort of our making efforts at Cowshakes to sort of like step in to hi everybody. I think it's just me now with you. Hope you're good. That one of the things that we were aware of as this health crisis was ramping up here in the States really was that from our perspective as we were looking at the science, there was really no chance that we were going to be having a summer season at Cowshakes, and so we made the choice early on to go ahead and cancel our season, which was a massive choice. We're still kind of navigating the repercussions of that, but some of those consequences included, you know, what ended up becoming necessary furloughs with the cancellation of the season. Obviously, there was work that was taken away from many artists who were looking forward to that this summer. At the time, we were the one of the first organizations to do it in terms of like cancel the whole season. The theaters in the Bay Area that had been operating that had shows that really intact for opening or in the middle of a run had canceled many of their performances as a consequence of the shelter and place order from the Bay Area counties. The Cowshakes kind of made the choice, you know, we said like what we have to do is take into account the common good and recognizing that it's not just our audience's well-being that we needed to be responsible for, but also our artists and our staff that carried with it a lot of guilt and a lot of, I think, responsibility. And so we made the choice early on to kind of like dive in and ask the question, how could we as a cultural institution, as a civic institution, serve our communities? And we think of communities as plural. We think that we have there are many circles of communities that we intersect with. Some of those are the artistic community. Some of those are the communities that are a consequence of our community partnerships, our audiences, our patrons, Berkeley, Alameda County, and more broadly. And I think I see Lauren coming back in. Hello, sorry. Hi. Just, you know, you're a director. You can handle it. It's great. Hi. What did I miss? Oh, I was just, I was just telling everyone, I mean, I'm not quite sure you froze up, so I wasn't quite sure where you were going with it, but I was just talking a little bit about sort of some of the hard decisions that we had to make at CalShakes as we were sort of, as we were, you know, monitoring the quick expanding health crisis and recognizing that so much about what needed to happen in order to help us weather this moment in some ways was sort of diametrically opposed to how we think of, you know, this whole notion of having to isolate and having to actually stay apart from each other when really all we try and do is bring each other closer together. So that's exactly right. Well, and I, I will just reiterate what was so moving is using your position and your, the resources of this incredible Bay Area institution to kind of turn it instantly and say what do the artists need and also to pivot. I mean, you, your company has been offering, I love Philippa's lectures, the Shakespeare Theater, and she's going through every Shakespeare play and like offering a little Ted talky, we're hearing about it, and it's so rad. It's really cool. And I know we're all in kind of a strange world of what is theater when we can come back together. Eric also directed an amazing production of Gloria that was running at ACT that was one of the like big productions that was first streamed. And I thought it was so successful. It's such a riveting. And I watched it on my computer screen. It was amazing. What was that like for you to pivot that quickly? And what, what was going on to make that decision? In regards to Gloria, I was, it was largely out of my hands, you know, I had already, we had opened the show. And, and I was actually, I feel like, I feel like when all of this went down, I was actually in New York. It's the funny story of, of, of my travels over the last three months is that my family was actually in Wuhan in like on December 26, we were in a hospital in Wuhan visiting my 105 year old uncle. That was December 26. And then, you know, and then we came back from China, just as news was starting to break out around the coronavirus. And then we were, you know, in the Bay Area, which was sort of addressing all of these things kind of ahead of the curve in many cases in this country. And then after that, I traveled to New York City. So I was in New York just as like, I was in your, you know, probably just as the shelter in place order was coming down. So about four weeks ago. And, and I was in New York when all of this was starting to happen. And, and I was just getting phone calls from ACT from our friend, Andy Donald over there who was like, hey, this is, this is going to happen. And they were really, it was really happening day to day to day, right? Like at one, at one point, they were like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna announce can't closing the show at the end of the weekend. And I was like, oh, great, I'll be back just in time for that last performance. And then like the, like an hour and a half later, actually, we're closing down tonight after the show. And then actually, we're not even going to have the show tonight. It was that kind of experience. Because I was actually supposed to go to that show. I was texting you. But I mean, what, what was it like? Did you watch the streaming version? I watched most of it. It is kind of hard, you know, I mean, listen, I love everything that you've been talking about about the necessity of this kind of virtual platform and like how, like how, you know, this is not like this, this is an opportunity for so many of us to kind of connect in new ways. You know, it doesn't change the fact, I think, for some of us that a lot of these, a lot of these recordings, not all of them by any means, but a lot of these recordings are shot as archival footage. And they're not intended to be shared out in that way. And so you spend a lot of time going like, Oh, what am I looking at right now? Or like the sound gets a little wonky. And then the other thing, of course, is that the archival recording is often shot before the show opens. So if you're a director like me, you're squeezing every second of rehearsal that you can out of the time that you have to just keep kind of shaping and shaping and shaping. And so it was like, it was like kind of moving backwards in time to capture a moment of a thing. But I never honestly thought I'd ever have to watch. And then we were watching it. It's cool. I mean, I really appreciated folks like you reaching out saying, Oh, great. How much they enjoyed it. It was, yeah. And I think the more as the our community talks about what this is, is to not think of it as something that is replicating or trying to be the same thing as a live production, because of course it can't. And and just to, but if this were to continue to build that into how we think about it to make a specific, do you not, you don't record the first preview, you record halfway through the run of the show, or you make sure that you build that process into it, as opposed to it being like an accidental, like, Oh, I guess somebody kind of taped it once, maybe we'll release that. I mean, definitely a lot of the theaters that I know are building that into their budget. Yeah, you know, multi cameras, multi cameras. Yeah, or audio stuff. I mean, I'm seeing a bunch of different, I think we're at a point of like, I don't know, what do we got? Let's figure it out. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's a very, I mean, it's, I think it's very exciting. I don't like, I think there's, I mean, everybody is moving at their own pace. And that's good. But I do think that there's something about this notion of the kind of sustained extended period of separation from the practices that, that, you know, we know so well and are so familiar with. And like, I think, you know, I mean, listen, it's weirdly like taking our own medicine in the sense that we ask audiences all the time to step out of their comfort zones. And now we're being asked to step out of our comfort zones, and to really reimagine the kind of paradigm upon which we're making this work. That's, that's cool. And that's an exciting place to be. And terrifying. And terrifying. Yeah. It is. And it's interesting too to think about what is a theatrical response to this. And of course, we're in the middle of it. There's no response required. Any response is the appropriate response at this moment. What I am so curious a year from now, how we talk about this time and 10 years from now and 50 years from now. And it is an interesting thing to be a theater artist, being a person to hear out what's going on. Hi, Lauren. I'm losing you again. I'll just, I'll just carry on from here. Let me see. I think that, you know, it's interesting, right? Because part of what this moment affords, there's a kind of living contradiction I find in this moment that part of the issue, part of the challenge that we're dealing with is that, you know, prior to this all going down, I was, I was one of those kinds of theatrical bloodites in the sense that I really like, I was pushing very hard all the time to focus on this notion of the live experience as a Shakespeare theater, right? What we often talk about is this notion of shared life that artists and audiences are all under the same life because it's an outdoor venue. And because of that, a lot of what we do is tied to, you know, this notion of being in each other's presence. I talk about it as practicing the practice of being in the company of others. And, hey, and, and so what's interesting about this moment is like as, as at least from my perspective, one of the big questions that we keep asking ourselves is sort of like, well, okay, what we know is we can't just reject technology. We can't like, that's no longer an option. So really, the question becomes, or the conversation becomes that much, much more nuanced. And it really is about sort of like, well, if we're looking at this, this platform, upon which so many of us have to engage, at least for the near future, how do we bring the practice of liveliness into these spaces in such a way that it feels like that we can still feel the presence of another person across this distance, even if we can't physically be there. Yeah, that's such a great, that's such a great point. Because it is about, and it's about intimacy and connection and somehow watching a play on your phone is a different kind of intimacy and a different kind of connection. Yeah. So I mean, I never thought I would be an advocate for plays on a phone. I've spent so much of my life saying Peter is present and alive. And in this moment, and it requires you to put your phone down and pay attention and give your heart and your empathy to a person that's not you. And isn't that great? Yeah. I'm like, also maybe on your phone. Do you know this company called 600 Highwaymen? They're a husband and wife team, a choreographer and a director. The name of the piece is escaping me right now. I love them so much, Michael and Abby. And they had created a piece that was essentially a large ensemble movement piece, like full choreography. But one of the things that they did was they actually rehearsed each performer in isolation. Right? So they would have, I guess, I mean, I hope I'm not giving something away. Sorry, YouTube, but like, they have a clock that the performers would basically time their choreography and then they would like move through the space based on the time code and they'd have certain directions and actions to do. And then what was really extraordinary about this work was the very first time it was performed in front of an audience was the very first time all these performers came together. So I think a lot about that process when I think about how we're in the space right now. And I think a lot about like, what would it mean if a large group of us just started a process of creating something now in like these kinds of one on one experiences. But with a vision of something much greater, so that when we're finally able to step back up, when we're finally able to step back into the company of large groups of each other, that there's this like performance, this piece of art, this event that's been gestating all these many months, just waiting to be released. That's pretty cool. Who knows, we're gonna keep we're gonna figure it out. So the other reason why I wanted to talk to you and this is to pivot a little bit away from this moment and how what is theater and who are we and what's going on and more kind of your work as a director of new plays. A lot of the audience for this are their professionals, but they're also a lot of students. Maybe writing our first plays, college folks coming to this profession and trying to figure it out like, aren't we all still trying to figure it out. And so I wanted to talk about the playwright and the director collaborative space and what that is like for you, what has been successful for you, what if you were speaking to young directors and or young writers, what can you kind of offer about how that process should look like, shouldn't you know, what does that feel like to you? I mean, it's just such a super interesting question. You know, I think that so I've always so I came up in the School of American Theater as a writer's theater. So what that means for me is that a lot of my sort of training and my apprenticeship and my mentorship was around this notion that writers sort of that we as artists as theater artists were there to serve the writer and to try and help the writer execute their vision. I think that what's really interesting about that conversation, of course, is that, you know, there's there's like there are directors that are completely, I mean, I don't know them necessarily, but I suspect there are directors who are quite subservient to the writer's vision. There are directors who on the other on the opposite end of the spectrum are quite tyrannical and for whom the writer's words are merely a kind of platform from which to launch. And then there's like all of the different directors that fall in between. I would say that, you know, it's it's a case by case situation. You know, I think that I'm also of the mind that playwrights and writers, you know, there's no director that can there's no director that's suited to every writer, just as there's no writer that can work with any director. And that a large portion of this a large portion of this journey that we're on is about finding the right collaborator, finding the sort of the spiritual brother or sister or person or partner that that allows you both as a writer and as a director right to achieve your vision. I mean, I think that there are some writers who go into immense detail to ensure that their particular vision of the work is represented on the page. And there are other writers who leave virtually all detail out and like, and challenge the director to, you know, make a decision. I think there's lots of instances of directors and writers who have a really great rapport, you know, who can finish each other's sentences. And I think that for me personally, I have found that the the most successful examples of partnership that I have had have been in situations where the writer and I kind of know each other well or come to know each other well and come to trust each other. And it gives us both a shorthand but also a kind of expectation of honesty and an expectation of truth. And so once you get past that point, once you get to the point where you can actually just be where you can say what you believe about a moment, whether it's working or it's not working, whether it's something that should, that can be sort of released in a certain way or it should be thrown out. Like when you can get to that point where you can have those conversations and really feel like there's trust at the center of it, like that's golden. And I would say hold on to that, hold on to that with every ounce and breath of your being. I do think, I do find that, you know, I as a director, for instance, am drawn to certain kinds of writers. I mean, it's not really about a form or a type, it's about a conversation, it's about a point of view. I love writers who have a distinctive point of view and a distinctive voice. And I love writers who are unafraid to challenge both the audiences and the artists that are collaborating with them. And then what I would say is, I guess, just to put a pin on this particular question, I think that what I try and do is, when I, if I'm meeting a writer for the very first time, so there's like the writers that I've known for a long time that I've worked with on multiple occasions. And those writers is sort of sort of like, yes, let's get back together again, let's like, let's go tear up a room. But I also often work with new writers, like it's not uncommon for me to be put in a collaboration with a writer that I don't know. Sometimes, oftentimes first time writers, you know, the work, the play that I just did at Oregon Shakespeare Festival this last year was a piece called Between Two Knees by a group called the 1491s. They're a native sketch comedy troupe. And it's not the first time that they've written something by any means. They have, they are immensely prolific. But it was the first time that they had kind of explored theater in a traditional sense. So I get put with these writers, I get put with with writers all the time who are early in their career, or, and we can talk about why maybe somewhere down the road. And what I would say is what I enjoy about that, or how I enter into those relationships is I'll spend a lot of time talking to the writer, so that, you know, and I'll spend a lot of time trying asking questions about sort of like why is the choice was made? What's happening here? What is the shape of this moment? What is the sort of the color of the tempo? What is the music of this moment? I spent a lot of time just trying to sort of step into the creative world with the writer. And not the writer as a like a person typing away at a keyboard, but like what music were they listening to when they were writing the play? You know, what books were they reading? What images were they absorbing? Because I want to understand in a way the kind of just state of kind of context. And, and that helps a lot. And, you know, and, you know, and sometimes some writers sort of offer a lot and other writers offer less. And the writers that offer less, I think I tend to turn towards just the sort of, I mean, for me, there's always the tried and true around the story and the sort of dramaturgical kind of scaffold play. And there's lots of questions. Yeah. And in your work with the classics, I mean, you're at a classic company, even though I've always riveted by the new classics that you give birth to over there and engage with. How do you hop between those as an artistic director and a director? I mean, how do you kind of fit those together? I mean, you know, it's interesting, right? Because I was saying earlier that like, I, you know, I come from a tradition of a writer's theater. So, you know, Longworth was a writer's theater. And, and, you know, you were there to serve the play in many ways. And at the same time, I also come from a tradition of puppet theater. And, you know, and a lot of the theater that I love to watch is actually European theater. And so it's very strange, right? It's very strange to have those two kinds of worlds, sometimes in collision, because, you know, the European, I think much of European theater is a director's theater, where there's sort of a meant significantly more agency on the director's part to kind of like take a work and kind of collage it or deconstruct it or explode it, you know? Whereas in the American theater, I think there's a reason, you know, I think honestly, there's a reason why we have such extraordinary, like extraordinary playwrights, but we now have extraordinary television. And we have, you know, and that's in no small part because of the extraordinary playwrights. And, and so, you know, from my perspective, the classical theater is often, the classical theater is often either an actor's medium or a director's medium, because the playwrights are death. And so there's like, so there's like, so, you know, at Cal State, I always say, I always say, when I was interviewing for the job, I told them, you know, I'm not a Shakespearean scholar. I'm not like, I'm not that person. I think that we have an extraordinary dramaturg, Bill McKellie, who like, is all the things and knows everything there is to know. And has been doing those lectures, right? You mentioned earlier. But what I said was that if, you know, if I came to Cal Shakespeare, that my intention would be to see these old plays as new works, right, that I would be interested, it's not that I would be rejecting the historical context of the work. But I would be more interested in hearing how the words hold meaning today, and not how the words held meaning 400 years ago. And, and in that sense, sort of really looking to investigate the work as, as it, it lives in contrast to the world today. And so, you know, the difference for me, oh, you know, I think classical work is lonelier. You know, I mean, I mean, one of the things that I love about new places is sort of like, like, you've got like, you've got this person that is kind of tied to you or you're tied to. And you're on this little trip together, and it's amazing. And like, you know, and sometimes you get into arguments, but sometimes it's a love fest, and it's often both, you know, at once. And, and it's a kind of companionship that is really quite extraordinary. Whereas in the classical theater, you know, I mean, I think often sometimes the barometer takes the place of the playwright, right? Right. And that's, that's also very lovely. But it's not quite the same thing, right? It's not quite the same thing. But, but what I do find is that in the classical theater, I have, I as a director often feel like I have more agency to sort of shape and reshape. And so it's a way for me, I mean, I should say, I should predicate this by saying, first of all, that until I took over Cal Shakespeare, I did not have really a foothold in the classical theater, like classical theater was not something that was ever offered to me as a director. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I mean, it isn't, it isn't, right? It isn't, it isn't, yeah. It's not entirely surprising. And, and so I mean, a lot of my time at Cal Shakespeare has also been a period of personal learning and, and expansion. And I think what I would say is that the, what classical theater has afforded me is space to really stretch myself as a director. And what I find is, because I still like, usually I'm directing classical work at my theater, and then outside of my theater, I'm still doing new plays. Right. And what's really great about that is it allows me to take sort of those formal experiments that I do when I engage with classical theater, and it just expands the vocabulary for me that I'm then allowed to bring into a space with living writers and to sort of talk about, like, you know, to talk, to, to push, to push against sort of preexisting notions of what a moment might be and like to really explore. I think that's been a real gift. Yeah. Well, I mean, Cal shakes and Oregon shakes feel similar, certainly with you at the helm of Cal shakes now because of the incredible work with the shakes, Shakespeare and the classics that they do, but also the combination of a dedication to new plays and putting them in context with each other. And that's what I love so much about the seasons that that I've seen you plan is they are really talking to each other these, or whether it's a classic play and a new play, but the new play always has something classic about it. Or certainly when I see them, I go, well, that's like that will be a classic soon. Like your production of good person was so riveting and so big and so surprising, I think, when people would think about that play and then coming to it as you did, it felt like a new play to your point. It felt like something brand new, like right now, which I love, I love balancing that, you know, to the to the young directors out there. How do you, I mean, because you said nobody, nobody offered you a classic play until much later. Do you advise if you do advise choosing a path early or just do all of it all the time or I mean, do all of it, do all of it. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, I think I mean, listen, until until I started running Cow Shakes, the largest cast of actors I'd ever had, where I think was six, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, that might be an exaggeration. I think I did a production at Tequila Mockingbird just before I started at Cow Shakes, but like, but, you know, the classical canon is the one of the few places, the few remaining places in the theater where you actually see casts of a certain scale, you know, like so much, you know, and there are rare occasions like when theaters either encourage players or playwrights actually just do, they write to us like to the scale of production that theaters used to engage in decades ago, you know, but but more often than not, I find one of the consequences of just everything capitalism, whatever you want to call it, but like, you know, is that writers are sort of taught to write with at least one part of their brain on the economics of producing, you know, and I always say like, don't do that. Like, I mean, I think that there's one thing that we learn from working in the classical theater is that you can do quite a bit, quite a little, and and sometimes all you need is language and the right framing device to allow actors to play multiple roles or whatever. But I think that what I would say to directors is, you know, I also do think, I mean, listen, until three months ago, I was saying the American theater was in the moment of like a sea change of leadership among other things. And then a lot of the leaders out there are very thrilling to me because they represent a new generation. So there's not even like, like it's not like, and I think what we find is generation to generation, one's perspective on the world shifts quite dramatically. So I was excited to see what all these new leaders were going to bring to the table. Of course, now we're in this kind of really unprecedented moment of profound challenge for so many of these relatively new leaders. And a lot of, you know, a lot of us are trying to figure out how we can support so many of them in this moment. But also there's like kind of in the back of the mind awareness that this, you know, this is we're going to be a smaller field at the end of all this. So what I say to people is don't like, I mean, if we're going to be a smaller field, you know, there's like not, I would say there's going to be a lot of people out there looking for work. And the best thing that you can do right now is to not limit yourself by by limiting yourself, you know, like literally. I think that the notions of who is or isn't best suited for classical work is definitely shifting. And I think that especially in this moment, right, like as you were saying earlier, like in this moment, when the tools by which we are making work have shifted so dramatically, like this is the moment to kind of see this is this is the moment to capture, right, to really kind of like to use this opportunity as an opportunity to explore without the fear of failure. Yeah. That's such a great point. And it is, I feel us saying, all right, let's get very small again. Let's write very small plays for very small audiences and to what can fit on a screen comfortably and in the theater. And and you're right, there is a we're already in a scarcity mentality before this started much less than now. And it is it's a bit of defiance to say I'm going to write a 30 person epic historical epic or contemporary epic or something. What is what is a big answer to this instead of a small answer? That's kind of brave and amazing to do that. Makes my mind work a little bit. You go, Lauren. I'm looking forward to that 30 person play. I don't know. I had one in me and it was Peter Pan. And I was always write tiny plays anyway, so I'm a little bit like, oh, this is very comfortable for me. But but yeah, I will accept, I'll accept a challenge and challenge all of you writers out there to to do that, too. Now, in terms of maybe switching, well, not switching, that's because you're always wearing both, but in terms of an artistic director, and I know it's going to be different now. How do you, how do you develop a play? How does it, I mean, we haven't talked on these classes as much about the commissioning process, the new new new new play process, the reach out to a player and say, hey, would you have any interest in doing something? Yeah, you know, how does the how do those first conversations happen, kind of take us through what that's like, kind of with you helming it? I mean, as far as the commissioning process is concerned, you know, I'll always be drawn to writers. So I can be a voracious reader. I was a more voracious reader before we had a kid. Right. But yeah. But I do I do enjoy reading a good play. And I will always start with the artists first. I think at Cowshakes, we've tried to be very intentional in our commissions to ensure that the commissions are going towards artists with the very least Bay Area roots. Because I really do believe that, especially in this moment, more than ever, that the role of the theater is a hyper local cultural institution is really important. You know, and sort of like, and how do we make sure that we are doing everything we can to feed the local arts ecology? But I would say, you know, I think there's there's obviously lots of different points of view around how work is developed. And there are some artistic directors who won't allow play to to reach their stage until in their mind is absolutely perfect, right? Until it's had 17 readings with extraordinary audience responses and so on and so forth. I tend to take a lot more risk. You know, I'm looking, I'm looking for work that speaks to the moment. And I don't like I find that if you commission something, and then it goes into development till kind of like, you know, goes into development for four years, it's not speaking to the moment that it was created for it, right? And so I don't know what that means. I mean, I think that in all honesty, we've only done four seasons at Cal State, so we've only really had a couple commission proper commissions. And what we've been doing with our commissions is a little different, I think, for most theaters, because our commissions are often built in parallel with a kind of vision for a community partnership or a community engagement initiative. And that those those things are kind of like they they together create the project, and it's not just the play, but it's the play and the manner within which the play lives within our community. But, you know, I tend to think, you know, we I tend to be like, I'm like, if the writer is able, and and they can deliver the play quick enough, you know, from my point of view, like, let's let's do it, like, let's let's have the idea, let's write the play in a year, let's workshop it, like, later, like, later in that year, and let's put it on as soon as we can. And I also do believe, I, you know, I personally believe, there was a model for a while, right, where all these theaters had had all of this money for commissioning, you know, like, like massive amounts of money for commissioning. And so they were commissioning more plays than they could actually produce. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, I think, from my perspective, my goal will always be to commission to produce. So if we're going to commission a play, we're going to commit to actually putting it on the stage. Yeah. And I think that is a testament to working with people you trust, which has been a theme over and over in all of these classes, to finding those folks who get you, who are willing to take the risk with you, and every play is a bit of a risk. So I will say I've, the times I have felt most cared for, and thus, catalyzed as an artist have been in those situations where it's like, let's just say we're, let's say we're doing it. And then work from that urgency and excitement and connectivity. And it really does make a thing of a moment to your point. And sometimes it can go off the rails. But all of the ones who've, I've had like a speedy timeline, like, all right, let's, I'm going to plan it. Now I've, announced the season and it's on it. So now we got to write it. Have been really, really exciting. And perhaps that is more, more where we're heading, at least some part of the theater might be heading more towards that kind of, I hope so, you know, I mean, I think, I think our business models are going to shift dramatically. And I will say that like the business model as it was, such as it was, was failing. And so I would offer that a lot of people were operating from the place of fear. You know, like the, the, and it was the rare exception when people were operating from the place of courage and, and fear is an extraordinary inhibitor, right. And so like, so, you know, I think, I think there are going to be a few institutions that are able to see this moment as an opportunity to hit reset. And I think if they're lucky, they're going to find their way back to that space of courage and they're going to be fearless. That's right. And because, right, like you, do you want scared art or current courageous art? Like, no, I want Do I want the, the wimpy stuff or the stuff that's taken a stand and being brave and bold. Um, yeah. So in terms of, um, let's say we are talking to young writers or young meaning, whatever that definition of that is, I've been hearing from a lot of folks who are like, I've gotten laid off from my job or from a job and I'm just going to write a play right now. So this is, you are included new new writers of all stripes and ages. Um, how Now, what is your perspective or advice on kind of filling yourself up with the ingredients to be a good writer? What does a good writer mean? And I think one thing I always say is go see lots of plays plays, read the plays. If they are accessible, talk to the people making them. Um, yeah, what sort of that kind of advice would you give? Um, and it could be technical playwriting advice, like, you know, spell check something, but what, what, what is your sense of kind of what, what offering you might give to young writers? Um, in this very moment, what I would say is tell someone a story. Um, I have a, I have a four and a half year old daughter. Um, and we will often spend our evenings lying in bed and I will make a story up for her. Um, I, like, I, you know, it's interesting, right? Because I, I feel like, like I was in New York, um, on 9 11. Right. And I remember being quite struck by how long it took for work to be produced that had anything to do with 9 11. Um, and, uh, strangely, I suspect it will be similar here. Like, I don't like, I mean, people are doing the things they're doing, but I would say that the work that is really going to be able to offer perspective is some years down from now because you need that distance, right? You need that distance to be able to kind of like come back to it. Um, and I don't like, I don't, I don't, I, I would not say go watch a lot of plays because the form of that is actually not a form that is going to be accessible to many of us. Yeah, that's a great point. And, you know, and I, I'm like, I'm like, well, let's like, like, I would say to young writers, I mean, I always say it's like, it's a, it's a question of media, right? You are, you are not solely a playwright just because you choose plays as a medium on which to write. You are a storyteller, you are an extraordinary, you are an extraordinary storyteller, an extraordinary observer of the human condition. Um, and plays happen to be the medium by which you've chosen. Like, you are not limited to that medium anymore than anyone else. And I think that, um, for me, uh, if, if I were, like, if I were to offer advice to someone at the very beginning of something, I would just say really understand what it means to captivate a person's attention for any extended period of time and to do it in as real and present a way as possible. Um, right, to remind yourselves that you're writing for someone else and not for yourself. Um, and, uh, and I think that would, that is an extraordinary skill to spend some time on. That's such a great way to say it. And capturing a four-year-old's attention is a certain attention. It really is. I have one of those too. And sometimes it's not about trains. My boys are like, next. Yeah. But it is true. Um, I will say there is incredible magic in just leaning forward to somebody and saying, I have a story or I have a story. Yeah. Or, you know, Anna DeVere Smith talks about personal narratives. Yeah. Right. And, um, your point. That's simple sometimes. Yeah. What are the story? Like, yeah, even like, start from there. Like, what are the stories about yourself that you tell over and over and over again? And that each time you tell it, you shape it a little bit and then you shape it a little bit and you shape it until it becomes this kind of like, explicit little pearl that you, you know, you bring out at your cocktail party when you're on a first date. Yes. Yeah. It's the who are yous. I'm just started to randomly work on this brand new thing that I don't know what it is yet. And that's actually what it's starting with is people think they know themselves. What words do you know or think you know to describe yourself? And because this time is a time of such selfness and self intimacy, but also the strange intimacy of a Zoom call or a FaceTime or a text or whatever and kind of using that to lean forward and say, I have a story or I have a secret or, um, this is just for you or, you know, there's, there's so many ways that that simple, the simple, simple storytelling, really beautiful. That's a great, it's a great way to think about it. Can I ask as we're kind of inching towards our hour? This may be a bittersweet answer at the moment or a bittersweet question. I don't know how your answer is, not going to predict that, but I want to kind of put out there what we love about theater and let's have streaming on the side. Like that's not, let's talk about the thing that got us to this point in our careers in our lives, the thing we love. What are your favorite things? Are you, I just asked Regina Victor this question, are you like an opening night person or do you hate opening nights? Are you like a first rehearsal or first production meeting or just reading the play or all of it? What's, what are the things that just make you like go woohoo about what you do? I mean, the easy answer to that is I'm a tech person. I love tech. Like tech is like the best moment of all time and it's kind of like, you know, it's the moment when everything starts to intersect and it's all leading up to the first audience, whatever that is. And there's a kind of lushness to it. I think the harder answer to that question I think has a lot to do with liveness, right, and presence. And I feel like, you know, what I know is that the thing that drew me to the theater was the imperfection of it and the grace and compassion and like wide armed sort of embrace of imperfection, you know, and I think that, like, we're not making film. And if anything, what we, what we, what we venerate more than anything else are those moments when we go off script, right? Like, we don't, we don't want it to happen all the time. Like, we don't, we don't go around, I mean, every so often we do, like every so often somebody creates something that's specifically intentionally about that. But like, but I think the things that we are always like the things that we recall in our mind about the live theater are those moments when things veer wildly off script because they remind us in a very bracing way that, that we are there, right. And that, and that, that time is fleeting and that the experiences of our lives are, you know, anchored in a moment and it happens and then it is behind us. And, and we are simply an accumulation of that. So to me, that's the experience of a play, the experience of a play is an, it's an accumulation of imperfect moments. And so like, I think, you know, that's, I'm not missing it because I don't, I think we see it all over the place, right. So I don't, I don't miss theater in that way, because I feel like, I mean, it's like, there's nothing more imperfect than a Zoom meeting. As we have distra- distra- as we've shown today. That's awesome, though. And I think that, I think it's awesome because it's sort of like, yeah, I mean, you know, we're, you, there's no rehearsal here. Yeah. And a play is, as much as we rehearse, I find that the rehearsal process is not about perfection. The rehearsal process is about giving us the foundation upon which to embrace the imperfection, you know, so that we can, so that we're not, we're not completely paralyzed by moments to catch us off guard, but rather, you know, we be inhaled. And there's, there's such a beautiful line. They're kind of imperfection is holding hands with discovery and certainly rehearsal. That's when we get to go, oh, you said that line wrong, but that's better. That's right. Do that again. Yeah. Or never mind, I was totally wrong. You have proved that this scene is terrible. Give me a moment. Let's fix it or let's adjust and iterate. And that's such an interesting way to think about it. That rehearsal is, is not about a gradual perfection. It's a gradual imperfection. It's a gradual discovery. It's a gradual like, break it, make it, break it, make it. Yep. I mean, what are you moving towards in the end, right? Because I think like, like, you know, this notion of, this notion of, of working towards perfection is also a notion of working towards rigidity. And I just don't know why you're doing theater. Like if you want, if you want perfection, make film. I mean, it's a beautiful medium, and it's a perfect medium for that. But really, it's like, you know, it's not like you're going to have the exact same audience every night. It's not like. And to resist the, because also that kind of perfection feels like product feels like a thing that is stamped, and it's the same every time. And to your point, that is what is incredibly magical. It is the heart beating, the shared time and space, the thing we don't ever get to do again is this thing of the same scripts and the same actors, hopefully, but it flows and it flows and flows and flows. I will say I miss the applause, not getting it, but giving it. I love. And I, for a moment, I was like, Oh, the world, all the world is a damn stage because all of these people coming out on their balconies, certainly in New York and applauding. It's the simplest gesture we associated with theater with live views with live performance. And it is the thing that brought me here is every time I think about it is yeah, I could write a letter and then we can donate and I'm glad people are doing those things. But it's also the simpleness of going, thank you for doing what you do and what you are doing is some, because part of what applause is saying is, I can't do what you do. And I'm so grateful that you've done it for those of us who can't, whether that's a medical worker or an actor or a violinist or something. So there's something about that very simple human gesture of going bravo brava bravissimo. What you do and who you are. Speaking of which, bravo for thank you for doing what you do and who you are. Thank you, Laura. This is so much fun. I was like, I was watching you start these free classes and then all of a sudden it expanded and I was like, oh, that's interesting. Are you having great conversations? Amazing, amazing. And it is one of those ways to lift up theater even again, because we can't necessarily make it in the same way as we can talk about it and investigate it and cheer it on and just continue to solidify the community that exists all over the world, people who do this thing. So thank you so much for doing this and give your little girl and your amazing wife a hello and stay safe in the East Coast. I can't wait to give you a hug in person at some point soon, hopefully. Yes. Oh, the many hugs that will come. So many. All right. Well, bravo to you, bravo to all of you listening. Thank you. There'll be more conversations coming up all the time, because I don't know. We just keep making them. We keep having them.