 Hello, and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined back by my old friend mr Dan Garza to talk about feisty symbols Dan welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. It's good to be back Yes, you're my you're my feisty guy We had a two-parter on the history of feisty before which was a really really cool episode it was before we did video so People have heard you before now we get to see you and your if you're on YouTube You can see his awesome collection of some of his collection of feisty symbols behind you so Dan as you know this episode today is about kind of a guide For like how to get into collecting vintage feisty symbols and if you're already into it then Maybe you can get some more info about your collection and dating them and all that good stuff So this is a cool one. You've done a ton of work. So first off I appreciate you doing all this work and be in here man. Sure Sure and labor of love labor of love. Well, feisty needs some more There's plenty of people who love feisty, but I think feisty could use some more like public-facing Information it's it's it pales in comparison to the other Zazilgen and Sabian and all that stuff. So yes, we can help out today All right, Dan before we start before we jump in this has been it's a good thing I'm very happy to say I have a new upper tier patreon level member Which if you join the $15 a month patreon Tier you get a shout out on the podcast and I want to give a big Thank you to mr. Kevin Turpin Who's a super nice guy and reached out to me and said how can I support the show? I this was after the Neil Peart series and I said well Kevin here's some options And he immediately joined at the upper tier Kevin's not really plugging anything like a shop or a podcast Or a band or anything which people can do if you join that level. He just told me that he is a very long-time drummer of 50 years that he has been playing and To me that means a lot to get that kind of you know Accolade from someone who who's willing to give some money to the show Who's been playing that long because this he's been around the block obviously and it means a lot and it certainly helps the show Thank you to Kevin Turpin if people want to join in and help and get your shout out on the show go to patreon.com slash drum history podcast and join up there so all that being said Dan So why don't we jump in real quick and hear about your background about what got you into pasty symbols and led to this? immense knowledge that you have really that more the history part started with the pandemic But this goes back. I would say about 45 years. I started playing drums in 1978 when I was about 13, but I was influenced by two guys Boys at that point. I was 13 There were two other through the boys my neighborhood that played the drums and they were about three or four years old with me And they were already in junior high when I was in elementary school. I was in sixth grade One of them this was probably about 77. This is about a year before I started playing He had just got son I mean it's the same by Zeppelin and I'd vividly remember him opening up the album obviously it's a double album, right? Because it's vinyl back then and He's thumbing through The photos and he points a picture bottom and it's that famous picture where bottom has his mouth open and It's kind of a close-up But you could see his 18 its crash and you could see the pasty logo and you can also see his Tom So he points to the drums. He says hey, man, look his drums are clear the orange, but they're clear You know and my little 12 year old like fragile child like eggshell mind was completely just hard boiled Then he points a symbol and he goes look man. He plays paste symbols, man. Yeah, you know, and I'm just like blue I already have long hair. I'm like, whoa That's totally radical. No way That's totally radical man Yeah, so I had the influence of these guys early on there was also an older kid He was in high school who would bring albums over like every week and my dad had a pretty decent stereo, which is nice And I had a brother was older year older and we listen to the same music and this guy would bring his albums over and this was like 77 maybe late 76 77 78 and he brings us out Mover said hey look at this man 2-1-1-2 I'm like, well, what's that and I open it up and I'm on the pictures. I'm like, no way to win robes, man That's totally rude. That's that's radical. I'm like that guy's name is gimme. No way So that was my introduction to rush and then he brings over yes songs Then he brings over and we feel like a palmer live album, you know, I'm like, yeah Well, the guy's like 17 it was it's this huge introduction to you know, classic rock when it was happening um I moved back east In 79 and I got my first Pisces for Christmas December 79 was of 16. It's 404 And because the two boys in my neighborhood already got 404 is in 78 To me doubt those were the symbols I I By then I knew who zildjian was because I take a drum lessons for a short period of time Oddly enough at melzio's melzio mix music stop and come over park, which is where freddy gruber taught But I missed him by about a year. He started teaching about a year After I took lessons there at any rate um Yes, that was my first uh, my first Pisces symbol Wow Unbelievable and as you said before that the pandemic and things got you into the history and I mentioned it before but if if if you're listening to this and you are interested in the history of the company Then you need to check out the first two episodes. I did with dan which Dig deep into that history because we're not going to be really going into that as much with the family and all that stuff We would be I mean we did two long parts We actually recorded one twice and because we wanted to do it better and that was uh, that was a fun one with you but um, link in the description per usual for that stuff, but um, so Dan this is a long uh, you sent me an outline with a ton of information here. So Let's just maybe I know you have an objective section here Which I think is a great way to kind of just start and tell people what it's like, you know The thesis statement like what are we gonna learn and let's just do that and uh And I know you have some thank yous and some people you want to mention along the way So let's just jump into this and talk about the guide to collecting vintage Pisces symbols Okay. Yeah, if I can start with the thanks, let's get that out of the way Um, a lot has happened. I think it's been over over a year and a half since you and I did those episodes and I've learned so much Number one on my list has to be number one is fritz stegger or I like to call mr fritz Who turns out we're the same age? Uh, we're both drummers. We both grew up listening to the same music But his just overwhelming amount of knowledge that he has about pisces a company and also the family Uh, he also really exposed me to Um, the the german and european drum and cybil industry, which I knew nothing about Uh, he had been in the business for decades So he even wrote a book about european drums. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to get a pop published, but he did He did write a good, you know, so he's done an enormous amount of research Um, second a close second has got to be steve black because he gave me keys to the wiki He gave me keys to this hot rod and let me take it for a ride So and he's given me free reign for two years um Next again a huge stack he has taught little and the reason why taught it's so important I don't know how he does this but he literally will come through online library archives And he will find advertisements out of uh Like periodicals from like the early 1960s or even late 1950s like downbeat magazine He'll find these advertisements and since they're dated He knows when these symbols were advertised so that so From that evidence We could tell okay, they were producing these symbols at least by this day um Another big thank you is to daniel plasco Daniel plasco Has an amazing collection of symbols mostly sound creations and ticks out two blue labels But he's helped me a lot with contacts in europe where to buy A valuing symbols. He's really good at that um But most importantly with daniel He had the balls to approach freddy stutter and say hey, I have a friend who would like to talk to you He said the interview the chance for me to interview freddy last last spring a lot and last summer And I spent about two months corresponding with freddy and I spoke with freddy Two days before he passed away and it was absolutely just heartbreaking because He freddy was really kind of like the last besides eric. He's really the last guy that But hit was there, you know, I mean he was there in 1970 So, you know um moving on My friend neils lilyk my berlin connection Uh fantastic guy fantastic drummer He has really helped me with the german market Pricing what what what is valuable what he thinks is valuable You know also exposed me to stamble 65s, which I've never even heard of before which we'll talk about later He's also a big fan of 404s and 505s And he's got the largest collection of stamble 65s. I think on the planet um I don't know anybody else. I mean I've he's shown me his list several times and He's got an amazing collection and last but not least is big jd john de christopher and There's several reasons why I want to thank him one because he's just a great guy but he's also really He's really introduced me to the zilchin culture and and and learning a lot more about the company, especially really the people Um, and he does great podcasts Um, most importantly most importantly and and this is a little story into itself I found out recently talking to him because we we go back and forth all the time and by the way He's a feisty player. He does play feisty symbols and he just bought Two brand new 2002 thin crashes a few months ago. So nice. That's he's just maxing out my respecto meter I mean, he was a VP of zilchin and he's not afraid to play feisty's. I mean, dude anyways, um So when I was saying earlier my introduction I planted drums. We we move back east Um, and we'll get into more about distribution availability feisty's in massachusetts was zilchin country and it was really hard to find feisty's and the the place that had feisty symbols was boston downtown boston was e world sir and That's where I bought my first black label 2002 and my first two red labeled 2002s in 80 and 81 and 82 and then Six eight months ago or something. I'm online, you know chatting with with uh John de krispher's on on the dfl forum And he mentions that he worked for e world sir and I messaged him. I said, hey, you know I bought symbols there and we went back and forth and I'm like, dude You sold me those symbols on like 1981 You know, it's like small world. Yeah, you know, so it's like There was out of the I mean I used to go there almost every week and my buddy was a couple years older Me he had a car so we could drive into boston and I guarantee you he sold me at least one of those symbols and I don't remember him specifically But I remember the counter that kept all the symbols behind the counter so I couldn't play with them And I was afraid to ask them to come behind the counter You know, but yeah, so Okay, that's awesome. Yeah, that's that's that's my thanks. Um, actually one more real quick. Cory missouri um Has a fantastic uh collection of dimensions and innovation symbols And he really kind of opened my eyes to the dimension series and innovation series. I I really Just don't have the bandwidth to to really Study more current or modern A symbol lines so Yeah, last well you say that You saying that is a good thing to say that for people who listen to this you probably it should be in the description Somewhere, but we're really looking more at the vintage side of things So there will be a point where we hit a date where it's like all right We've gone to the same thing happened with the zilgen episode We're about in the 90s things became laser engraved with a with a you know serial number It became a lot easier my my soft cutoff is 1986 and I'll explain why and in the in the future Why that's an important date um Objective yes, take it away. Why am I doing this? um so the the objective of this this podcast for me is To educate drummers On What symbols were made when what they were made out of which is very very important? um In an objective manner what symbols sound good or what symbols don't sound good um I don't really like to speculate on actual dollar amounts I don't think that's fair say this is worth this this dollar amount people ask me all the time It's like I don't I don't I don't want to do that um because it's it's it comes down to you know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Some people may think a symbol is Really valuable where other people think it's you know, it's junk one of the things also is um A drummer that's that's maybe relatively young or new or just looking to dip their toe and they want to Buy a Pisces symbol, but they don't know what to buy and buying used is always A good bet because you could usually get stuff a lot cheaper So then the question is is what do you buy and the number one concern I have is guys like that with no experience getting ripped off um, it's it's and it's not My experience I've looked at hundreds of hundreds of ads. I've thought thousands of ads over the last several years and people They're not they're not doing on purpose but literally yesterday I was on ebay and I found two ads and one of them a guy was selling a a 502 series 20 inch crash or ride that had a 1992 serial number But he said that it was a 1970s stamp bowl And it's like no it's and I just said I sent him a message another gentleman Um, who was very gracious was selling a 70s stamp bowl and I'll get into it later But he he had a german made stamp bowl which had a german serial and it had a one The first digit was a one So he said hey, this is a 1971 stamp bowl and I sent him a message saying no That's a german stamp bowl The second digit is is generally indicated of the year and it's a five. So that was made in 75. That's still a good symbol But it's not 1971 and Pisces didn't apply serial numbers until 72. So it's impossible for it to be a 71 So these are some of the little things that it's It's important to understand it if you really are looking for you know a good value and and symbols are expensive You know, I mean they're use symbols, especially some of the like giant beats are over $1,000 You know this week's episode is brought to you by gm designs custom symbols GM designs is not your typical symbol company They create symbols that you won't see anywhere else things such as b20 finger symbols a b20 triangle A multi bell symbol and very recently they created the largest bell ever on a symbol at 10 inches In addition to creating their own original symbols They also take old ideas that are no longer in production Revise them and make them available again. Also recently pat musta leto Formerly of king crimson was using a GMD multi bell symbol, which is super cool Whether you're a studio musician a touring professional or a passionate beginner GM designs offers a diverse selection of symbols to cater to your musical needs Visit their website to explore their gallery of products store links and latest features at gmd symbols dot com That's gmd symbols dot com Knowledge is power and it makes it and I said in the zilgen episode It makes it more fun to go symbol shopping to have this knowledge So we appreciate you doing it and uh And all that good stuff. So yes, I I also wanted to expose people to Pisces a company because there's very little known about them They're very much a mystery and that's reason why I got into it because I had owned and played pisces symbols since 1978 and Before the internet and all that. I mean all you had was brochures and music stores, you know or modern drummer articles and I was obviously a modern drummer subscriber and With piscy, there's just nothing. There's just there's nothing. I mean, there's no history I mean, there's there is information on their website But in general when you look at zilgen and you look at all the history and all the interviews all the magazine interviews And just all the exposure they get and even sabian and then you look at piscy. It's like, you know it's and there's there's such a unique company and They created a new sound. There was one standard, which is basically the turkish symbol standard, which is what zilgen and sabian have and Piscy created basically a new symbol standard and this symbol standard in 1970s Literally dominated and it changed the sound of rock music. It's very important for You know drummers that are this in piscy understand how important They were and they are to the sound Of drumming, you know, they really really change they really change things and they became really a second Uh factor. I mean, you know for symbols, there's there's the turkish sound and there's the european sound Basically, yeah, what it boils down to Yeah, totally and you don't have to like one or the other you can like both you can like you can mix them There's no rules. It's uh, it's all about what you like, but um, let's jump in on your timeline here I believe the next thing would be the symbol production process get a little information about that Yeah, and and I I have I'm a certified machinist Which is not metallurgy, but I do have some experience with a little bit of metallurgy and I've done a lot of reading and And look everybody just said I've watched a lot of youtube videos But you know, and I also had way back when I had the the symbol book by hugo pinkster borer I think I'll tell you pronounce his name. Um, but In a nutshell There's a few things that's in the um in the in the popular vernacular with drummers And the number one thing that really Is inaccurate is the term cast versus versus sheet bronze and I hate to say this but and I don't want to offend anybody but my my experience I have copies of the advertisements in 1980 1981 zilgin ran a series of ads in modern drummer And they're referred to as a competition of having cookie cutter symbols cut out of sheet metal Now what they're referring to is the way b8 alloy is made And to be totally accurate all symbols are cast period doesn't matter what they are All symbols are cast casting is a process of either Heating up a metal tilts molten or heating up an alloy right or two metals mix it until they're molten Pour it in a mold right that's casting and letting it cool And when it cools you have an ingot now the ingot could be the size Could be shaped by basically a cast iron frying pan Which is what you see with like the boss risk videos when they're making symbols, right? Or it could be a long bar You know, which is probably what piste with with piste's supplier Bylin works produces Even the cheap brass symbols the cheapest brass symbols, they're still cast because you have to be you have to melt the metal And mix it and then pour it let it cool and then you roll it out now the difference is between the Turkish way is Number one. They're only working with a b20 so B20 is is really fragile And has to be constantly heated In order to be worked and rolled so they do it in small pieces Which is a small ingot and they roll it out and it's a sheet if you look at zilgen and sabian production videos It's a sheet. It's small, you know, it's you know the size of of a big symbol, but it's just a flat curved sheet With piste especially with b8 the difference is it's a very big long sheet So that's basically What it comes down to all symbols are cast and all all symbols are rolled You know the details really come down to the type of alloy Like it and we'll get into that very quickly the other thing that I think is uh really important in this beginning Uh process with with piste's civil production process is They are the only symbol company That hammers all of their symbols top line symbols To shape them or into shape in other words the bow or the curve of the symbol is created by hammering Now some some other symbol lines like i'm like i'm sure with sabian's h8 series They are hand hammered into shape But the large portion of symbols you buy today with that exception are stamped in the shape And it's in the videos. It's in the zilgen video and it's in the sabian video So piste basically developed a process in 1952 using a mechanized hammer And they still use that same process and that's important for people buying piste symbols to understand. Why is it so expensive? Because out of the big four, right? sabian zilgen piste and and minal yep Pisces by far have the most handwork the most labor involved in producing a symbol Yeah, and I think that's a common misconception sometimes of people think hand hammered is only guys sitting there with an anvil Hammering with his hand. It still qualifies as hand hammered using the mechanized hammer working. Yeah, correct What what I call it is manually machine hammered Because they're using the machine, but they're manually controlling it and that was a process that robert pissey developed in 1952 His father mcale bought a machine and said hey look at this that'll save us time And the other symbol smiths didn't want to use it and robert figured out. Okay. He forgot the technique He's the one who invented the strap and the spindle that you strap to your knee That's what they basically have been doing since like 252 So they are the only symbol company that still produces their symbols on this is top line symbols You know, we're talking 2000 twos 602s, right signatures Masters are different because they're partially being turkey. So they are hand hammered by hand anyways Gotcha to wrap this up the other big factor is Pisces alloy especially We're talking b20 Their b20 alloy is different. Why do 602 sounds so different than an a zilgin? Or saving a a why do they sound so different? The majority of it is actually the alloy. It's how the alloy is made how it's heated enrolled And that is what actually is creating that clean sound That clean kind of crystalline sound that 602s have Where sapiens and zilgins are much thicker I to me That the classic a zilgin is sound is creamy to me. It sounds creamy. It sounds like that You know, to me if it was ice cream, it'd be coffee ice cream Because it's it's creamy and it has a thickness and it has that, you know We're 602. What would what kind of ice cream would piste be raspberry sorbet? Doc a 602 and then 2000 twos would be rainbow sherbet. Okay Makes perfect sense. Yes. I understand completely So I'll try to go to this quickly. We could we could go through the alloys really quick. Sure. Yeah, um We'll start with the most basic which is brass A 63% copper at 37% zinc Um, this is a very inexpensive material A piste does make a series right now on a brass. I believe the psd3 Um, but in general that's not a desirable symbol It's not something that you would really consider collecting um The next one is a big one for piste and that's nickel silver and is 12 and that's roughly 64 copper 12 nickel 24 zinc and it's it was traditionally known as german silver And I found out recently that soviet coins were made from nickel silver So I thought that was kind of interesting So yeah, very quickly. I'll say that I did an episode a short little thing on youtube about my great great grandpa's Prussian style snare drum from the 1880s. Yes, but they they said that they made them out of german silver Some of them. So very interesting. That's that's connecting it. Yeah. Yeah, that was very very common alloy They made silverware out of it too in german interesting now the thing is is is You know again remember piste basically started around 1900 1905 and My understanding is uh, mackayl who was the son of the original founder mackayl t um took over in 24 and he This is speculation, but I think this is when he say switched from brass to nickel silver And he was producing nickel silver symbols All the way through the 30s Even through world war two if you can get the material and continue up until 57. So this was their only alloy really Oh, I'm sorry. Let me take that back They also used brass for their zilco series, which was the lower line series But Stambul's were nickel silver that's and that's all they had because there was no b20 at least in northern europe the tines had it because they were the capital producing bells So they had bell bronze and U-fib Which was founded in 1930 was pretty safe b20 symbols But they didn't have it in germany or northern europe. So this is what they had and this is this is what they had to work with Um, it's an okay sounding alloy. It could sound pretty decent But to me it tends to be kind of dry and almost kind of tinny sounding Is it collectible? I mean, maybe that's just a question I'll put through in here and there are those collectible symbols or They can be they can be if you're looking for a particular sound if you're kind of looking for that 50s 60s You know Kind of I don't even know what you would call it. I mean, I think even like kind of the mersey beat sound in england because Zins were made out of nickel silver and they were all popular in the early 60s actually through it throughout the 60s Um, got you ring go head one ring go ahead and nickel silver Stamble big bell and like 62 63 So they were pretty common. I guess we can move on to the big one Sure, which is b20 so and and I cover I think I cover a lot of that the production Of it and in our previous podcast um, but it was robert when he He moved the sorts that we he was looking for He was looking to set up a factory 56 57. He was basically starting to take over the company from his father from the kale and He found a spot in switzerland. They robert tumors are actually looking to get into the united states of canada, but they couldn't That's and that would have been pretty crazy Pisces sitting up in the united states in 1957 Wow Just think of what could have been yeah At any rate long story short He found a little shop And set it up and it was right on the lake which is which is not well switzerland robert didn't know at the time but across the lake was swiss metal And they were producing coins for the swiss mint and swiss coins were made out of b20 bronze So that was his source for b20 anyways long story short, um Be what is special about b20 everybody knows or most people know it's it's um 80% copper 20 10 um at that ratio Those two metals don't like to stay together And there's a lot of work involved. It's it's what what you would call it's called a two phase alloy Which means the tin is not completely dissolved in the copper um That basically makes the material brittle and prone to cracking what that means is there is a lot of heating required To get the material into a state that it's malleable enough that you could work it that you could roll it and then Make it soft enough Where you can actually hammer it without cracking Um, so it's a very hard material to work with so last but not least um Pisces started using b20 and 57 and they used the same supplier all the way till 90 about 94 Which was swiss metal and swiss metal ran into financial problems and piscy was not A big customer and I believe swiss metal could not justify the expense of producing Runs for them. It's such a small quantity So they basically stopped their relationship and that's the reason why sound creations the 602s were discontinued was a lack of material So Next on the list, uh, is b8 So b8 is As most people know 8 10 and 92 copper with a lot more copper involved It's actually an industrial alloy. So it's actually readily available and it's actually used for bearings for plain bearings On a lot of industrial equipment Um b8 is single phase, which means that the 10 completely mixes with with the copper So you don't have the problems of it being brittle So that means that it could be cold rolled and what that means is that you don't have to heat it into a state Where it softens up basically to roll When you cold roll it actually hardens alloy. It's called Strain hardening And this this is a process that actually is good because as a general rule b8 is substantially softer than b20 is um Now robert started the experiment with b8 1963 so he He was looking for a replacement for nickel silver because he knew that nickel silver With b20 he was producing a world class symbols that could compete with zilgin on an even keel I mean, they were very good sounding symbols. These were actually the super form of the 602s, which we'll get into later um, and then very quickly after that were the form of the 602s um with b8 His original intention was to replace nickel silver so In a lot of ways it was this intention originally was budgetary to produce You know a second line of symbols So what he did produce was the stamble 65 in 1965, of course The funny thing is is I don't really see them as being as like a second line symbol because Their sound quality is and their construction is on par with the 602s from the era Now the funny thing is is that they were still producing stambles regular stambles out of nickel silver at the same time I don't know why I don't know why they produced these lines in parallel, but they did um Well b8 always forever has kind of a connotation of a cheaper symbol probably because there was the sabian b8s and stuff like that, but uh, Pisces has always been the exception of that Rule not rule soft rule of b8 be cheaper that that started with a zilgin and mer are about 1981 Because that that was their because zilgin didn't make a cheap entry level line. They had seconds You know that sells those seconds, right? Or they had the zilcos, but those were seconds. They were just stamped, you know With a different name, but there was a zilgin. It was an a zilgin But what happened was that robert quickly discovered obviously the sonic properties. They sound b8 sounds a lot better than nickel silver But he discovered that all that copper uh, definitely had very unique qualities and Very soon after that in 1967 he came up with with another series the second b8 series Which most people think was the first b8 series, which is not it's the giant beat the giant beat was the second series that they produced out of b8 And during a period of time 65 to 67 when you look at music history You see the big explosion obviously with the beetles the british invasion, but especially in europe They have what was called beat music, which is rock You know and that was amplified rock that had a really strong four by four b, right? And and it was spearheaded by the beetles, but that amplified music even in 65 You know bands are using bigger more powerful amps by 67 You know, you're talking cream with with air clapped into marshal stacks, right? so You know, robert's like, okay, you know, we'll we'll produce another one. This will be You know, I basically considered a top of the line series, you know, but that was the giant beat so let's We'll get to that But let's let's move let's move into that to the last really two And the next one is b15, which is known as the signature alloy and that is That is a troubled child. I found out um It is a very unique mix um Mr. Fritz had a lot of background on this and I asked him I said why I'm sorry. It was actually freddy. I asked About why b15? Why not b14 or b16 or b11? And freddy said that b15 had the sonic properties that is what robert wanted Now real quick with metallurgy, there's a turnover point I've talked about single phase and two phase alloys, right b12 is a turnover point and it's interesting that both zilgen and minel make symbols out of b12 I think the zilgen s series is b12. I'm pretty sure. Okay, cool. Keep going. Yeah b12 is as high as you can go Uh with 10 12 10 where it's still completely mixes with copper Once you get above 12 you get into 30 10 it becomes a two phase alloy where it's not completely mixed And that is when you run into problems and you have to start heating the alloy in order to work it So with b15 It had a very troubled childhood and that the first thing is what the production is it initially is hot rolled like b20 is But the last several rolling stages are cold rolled like b8 is um The first problem they have is when they cold roll it like that They get surface cracking. It's very small micro cracks on the surface Now you may ask well, why don't they just hot roll it? Well, when you're hot roll it you're changing the crystalline structure of the alloy itself when it's that hot And robert didn't want to do that that was going to change the sonic properties When you cold roll it you're hardening the alloy like with b8 the strain hardening, right? So that was what he was looking for for whatever reason Right that particular mix of initially hot rolling and then cold rolling it the thin it out and thin it out That's what worked to give him the sound he wanted which became the signature and the signature traditionals and on and on and on The original mill he used was called kovahudi and they were the Czech Republic and he originally developed The the alloy with the chief metallurgist, uh, who was also an organist. He played the church organ and We'll we'll get into this later, but they had a lot of production problems with it And they ended up moving production the wyland works very very quickly after signatures were released and anyway The bottom line with b15 is they have to grind off 20 off the top and 20 off the bottom of the sheet to get rid of the surface cracking so When pysic produces a blanket be 20 40 percent of that is thrown away now it's recycled But yeah, it's that's still they're losing that amount of alloy. So when people say wire wire signature is so expensive That's why that's one of the main reasons is because you're losing 40 percent of the material right off the top Geez, okay. It's good. Last one is The the master series 2020 masters um I told to get this In that minnow really changed the standard Uh, I don't know when they came out with the by bison series. I think it was probably 10 years ago or so but They really changed the industry and that they mass produced they built their own factory in turkey And they mass produced the symbols there. They don't it's they own it But they're using turkish symbol smiths that are on their payroll high C And and I see the logic this makes a lot of sense They wanted control, but they also wanted the turkish sound and that's When the materials heated and rolled in turkey the old turkish way It creates inconsistencies in the alloy and that's what gives it that dark complex almost kind of To me, it's it's dissonant That dissonant tone which people love with t-zills. It's right a lot of that is the alloy It's also the heavy hammering but a lot of that comes down to the alloy and actually the inconsistencies in the alloy hardness and mix and and so on and so on so with the master series picey I think really uh, uh developed the best the best of both worlds and that they have the I don't know the exact details, but the material is Cast right and rolled in turkey and then finished in switzerland So they're able to get that that antique turkish sound so Yeah, good to know. So those are those are the alloys which are which plays into the uh collectability Obviously, as you said because of the process and and material being lost and the you know getting it from turkey to switzerland So, okay, that's very good to know and I again. I now I know more than I did before even having you on the show before so um Next on your timeline, we've got the the factories now. Let's hear a little bit about this But also about how this plays into the collectability of each is one more collectible than the other. Yeah Yeah, it's it's an all good one that I think some details. Uh, but we're actually getting the individual models um, because Is okay. Is everybody knows history wise. Picey had the german factory they they actually, uh Founded in 1947 They had about a two-year span where their refugees, uh in northern germany and obviously they had no money They had nothing so they couldn't produce any symbols What I did read about in an article was actually in a Estonian drum magazine was that mackayl Set up the original production in an abandoned barn They found a barn that had been abandoned and that's where they started production in 1947 Yeah so the other thing with mackayl in the german factory is He had been producing gongs at least since the 1930s and It's really really overlooked With picey's history and just their the company in general Is that they are the the world standard for producing gongs and they have been for a very long time And as far as I know, they are the only symbol company that produces gongs Um, I could be I could be wrong But I know in the past at least was zildjian that they sourced their their gongs from taiwan so The german factory has always produced gongs Uh, not well the swiss factory never has produced gongs and the gongs are made from nickel silver And I didn't know that either tori so i'm like, oh, okay. That makes perfect sense now I know Yeah, because it's so much material. Why not use the the cheaper of the I guess Alloys is that kind of the thought behind that or well because it goes back to the at least the 1930s because mackayl was producing the same gongs in the 1930s out of nickel silver and You know, they were used by orchestras throughout europe and even in the u.s So they continued that tradition now. I know recently again. I I really bad at keeping track on the latest Uh, probably the last 10 years or so price picey started producing b20 gongs But I I I don't I don't know if they still produce nickel silver. I kind of assume that they do But that's really the german factories claim the fame and they've got some wonderful people there to this day That are still producing gongs and these are really these are talking about hand hammering I've seen some videos. It's pretty crazy guys with 10 15 pound sledge hammers You know, and five five guys holding up the gong, you know so Wow very cool But in general with the german factory, what's important to understand is they never officially produced b20 symbols That was roberts thing and the german factory is very much the old word pot old world pricey That's the mackayl pricey where not well the swiss factory is robert and that's the new world pricey What the german factory Did do is they always produce some lower line symbols and they still do all the entry level symbols And for a long period of time through the 70s and through part of the 80s, they produced 2002s So if you get on german ebay or german auction site You'll see A 2002s. I have a I have a one. I'd actually like to to buy more On you'll see them Made in germany on the stamp now supposedly they're a little heavier and they sound a little different than the swiss bay 2002s, which I Have never been on to do a side by side because I don't own Any any german 2002s or the exception of one little 13 inch so I haven't been able to make that comparison But so just to clarify real quick so people know so you said german symbols were the lower tier kind of more mass produced symbols or the the lower end symbols traditionally Well because they they never made 602 so they never made the top line symbols But it is an exception where there's a period of time where they were when when original six of two productions started They actually did finish them Now I don't know if that means just lading or if it means hammering lading or what exactly that means But yeah, there were some that were finished there because they needed the extra manpower The other thing and there's an oddity. I I should actually get to this later But there are some german pretty 602s in the 70s Which are very odd, which i'm still trying to understand though Yeah, that's the stuff. I love to hear and I think people like to hear about those little oddity collectible things But it's also worth noting as we go that like I think most people think of piste is a swiss Symbol company, but really we got to remember back to their astonian beginnings and then Really as refugees traveling around and then we do obviously end up with a swiss factory, which we're talking about now But uh, just interesting that they have a further that goes further back than that I think I mean, this is a very simple fun explanation But I had to ease this way to explain it is in some ways a german factory is the way the old asco plant in canada was to zilgen in the 70s Okay That's kind of that's probably the best way to describe it in a lot of ways um Now they traditionally yes, they they produce 2002s and then all the lines below that they also have a history too Which is very strange of producing symbols of theater You know, I'll get into this In a little bit about about piste switching to all their symbols that the great b8 shift of 71 72. Basically, it's what it's called But the german factory has this weird history of still producing nickel silver so symbols Here in there throughout the 70s. It's very strange um at any rate, um To wrap it up Mikhail and his wife live there, uh until he passed away in 63 My understanding is that he literally had nothing to do even though from 57 to 63 There's about a six seven year span He had nothing to do with the swiss factory that was all robert robert Basically had taken over the company by then and he actually started putting his name on some of the symbols Some of the very early like 57 produced stambles He would put his name on them That's zilgen ish to me how there's k zilgen and a zilgen running simultaneously. It's less Split than that. Obviously. Yeah, you know geographically, but uh Interesting. Yeah, you kind of have this fork in the road and you kind of have the old road And then you have you know, and that's and that's old world and new world You know, so swiss factory, but we kind of already pretty much covered it um it was uh Obviously It was it was It was it was so it was just so happenstance the fact that robert founded this location Or decided to set up his shop across the lake from Uh swiss metal because if he had set up anywhere else in switzerland, he may have never even known a swiss of swiss metal And he may have never produced b20 symbols, which means that You wouldn't have the piste that you have today. I mean Yeah, b20 and the 602s. There's several things down That to the the years but this to me is This is the turning point for piste. It's so many ways The fact that that they were producing b20 symbols to super form the 602 and and we think 57 59 even a little bit later than that at any rate So that's kind of we kind of already know about the swiss factory Um, so that's kind of that deal. So yeah, I guess we we can move on to the next subject, which this is going to get a little uh A little in-depth so i'm asking people to kind of hold on because the juicy stuff is coming But I kind of need to I need to get through serial numbers first if that's okay Yeah, I mean I've learned with the zilgen episode of symbol collecting that serial numbers are Deep and kind of confusing but again dan's providing a lot of photos and Information that will be with the youtube portion of this uh that hopefully But this is collecting. This is the stuff. So without just hop in. Let's do it so Okay, let me preface it by saying it's it's relatively widely known and it's very easy That swiss serial numbers the swiss factory Um, the first digit equals a year And and we'll go through the different Generations because they because they did change the format as far as the stamp But the numbering format basically stayed the same with one exception with with newer symbols where they had to go to eight digits But you started out with six digits in 1972 first digit equals a year period Okay, now let's kind of back up and let's go over german serials because It's really important and this is where it gets really confusing because If you're looking for vintage pisces Especially if they're 2002s or stambles and I'll go through the models individually but with German produced 2002s and stambles or any other symbol line Starting around I guess it was 73. I think I have one example. I think I have a picture of it Uh, but really I think it was more around 74. They started applying serial numbers Um, their numbers are consecutive. In other words, it's like an odometer, but they started with one three 00000 I don't think that's eight that gets nine digits. Anyways, you get the idea. Yeah, sure What it what that means is during the 70s The second digit of the serial actually is not 100 accurate, but it's a very good general indicator of the year So if you have a serial number that starts with one three, that means it's produced in 73 um, the gentleman that I messaged last night on on uh, eBay he had a stem bull a german made stem bull And it was one five, you know xx xx And I said, hey, this is from 1975 So it's very confusing now The problem is is that people see that one that think 1971. It's like, oh, I got a 71 You know, Pisces like no, there's no such thing I mean between myself and steve black and top little and a dozen other guys We've looked at thousands of thousands of pisces and they're just there's zero Like less than zero evidence that pisces applied serial numbers in 1971. It's 1972 So before that there's just there's it's just a stamp. There's no serial number. Correct. Correct. Okay, so Long story short with germans you get up to about 1980 and that's when the serial when the odometer turns over to a two so you basically get two, you know 000 000 and Beyond that it's probably best to reference the wiki instead of just boring you guys I think that's smart and that's what vincent did in the in the zilgen episode because again It's there's references that have been created by you and by steve black and all these guys So I think you're you're fine doing that now Back to swiss serial numbers First thing is is that there was a what we call a transition period around 70 71 And I'm sure I have a picture of it. I don't that that we could show There was a short period with pre-serial pisces around 70 71 Where they put the ink stamp the name pisces above the bell, but there was no There's no serious name. In other words. It didn't say 2002 or formula 602, right? It just said piscy and then at three o'clock it had the uh, the weight in red ink, right? You know sitting crash or medium or ride or heavy, right? Um, I actually have one and back in me very cool symbols um 72 obviously We got serial numbers and it seems right around the same time. That's also when piscy put The series names who would say piscy from the 602 or piscy 2002 Right The one thing I did forget to mention is in this era the very early serial number era Is piscy also added what we call the outline stamp on the bottom of the symbol, right? That's the name piscy Now they didn't do this with giant beads. That's the one exception Why I don't know but that is the best way and this is what I I Got to refer to george flutus my friend my friend georgey boy Um, this is one of the main indicators how he's able to determine whether bonham was playing 2002s or giant beads because When he had 2002s you could see that that stamp like in the picture in in song remains the same Right, but he doesn't have that on his ride in the south song remains the same pictures because he's still using a giant bead ride So that's one of the Easiest ways to tell Okay, so going through this quickly to try to pick this up This is the black label era six digits right for both germany and and switzerland switzerland First digit so 72 is going to be a two 73 is three four five six seven eight nine right 1980 is a zero Uh, and then 1981 We get a one Right and again people confuse that with with the german symbols second because the german You know a 70s german symbol 2002 could have a once oh, it's 1981 No, that's that's a swiss way several also Very early 81 and I also picture this piste the name piste was stamped above the serial So this is another way because they say okay, well if I have an 1982 symbol and a 1972 symbol How do I tell them apart because it both start with a two right? Well, the first thing is the 82 symbol is going to be a colored label right because 81 In the spring I think so when they switched to colored labels for all the series, right? So red for 2002 blue for 602 green for 515 brown for 404 Black for sound creation and we didn't get here but teal for the 101 series But them stamping the name piste above the serial indicates that this is an 81 or an 82 symbol and not a 72 symbol You also had I think I don't think they did it with the sound creation But with 2002 and in the 602 series they actually put the model the series name as well So say piste 602 or piste 2002 um Then for some reason In 86 they dropped the series name and they just have the name piste So for about 86 to about 1990 You have just piste and then the serial number now That doesn't really matter because you know an 86 symbol is going to be a 6 and 87 is going to be a 7 On and on and on and on and you know, it's not a 77 because a 77 would not have the name piste above it um Yeah Well, can I ask you a question along real quick along those lines about if you had uh, let's say a you know a few 70s Pistes a few 80s pistes and nothing and they're all the same size nothing had a label on it There wasn't even stamps could you Guess 70s versus 80s just from different Production okay, so so you can also use your kind of You know Your your senses and and just looking at it with laving and hammering and different things to tell the age a little bit correct well Then I There were Let's take 2002s for example, all right, so the 70s into the 80s um This is a question that I think I Kind of asked freddy because we were talking about this is one of that I was going to get into with the 2002 series about A lot of rumors think that the black labels sound different. They're mellower No, it's it's metal fatigue. It's age. It's wear and tear. It's mileage. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, freddy said there were There were differences in construction, but a lot of that was to streamline production. It was actually economy There were things that they could change So it was quicker easier to produce a symbol I think I think also some of the changes were also for durability, especially for 2002s Which were rock symbol. So they were pretty hard But generally if you've got a range of 2002s from the 70s into the 80s It's a serial number That's that's going to tell you and in the weight. Okay. So if you have all the teams and they're different weights You know, you can actually look it up on the wiki and you'll see, you know, this range of weights is a crash This range of weights is a medium. This range of weights is a is a ride You know and then good to know. Okay. Yeah with the serial numbers you'll be able to tell You know black labels to the 70s and then you've got the current levels of the 86 Then 86 89 you have the the third format and then once we get to about 1995 you have The third format which it's still just as feisty, but they use the high low Right with the feisty logo how the the letters are offset So they do that with the feisty name So they run that format till about 1995 and 1995 I believe is when we start seeing eight-digit serial numbers And that ran until 2011 now the big difference is the first two digits are the year So what you'll see is a eight-digit serial will say 95. That's 1995 not 1999 It's 1995 got it. Yeah, then 2011 They sort of leaves are etching the serials again eight digits But you know the same same format Yeah, I think if you're holding a symbol and you're trying to right now go What did Dan just say? Hold on. I'm trying to look at my number The best thing to do though is to go to the symbol dot wiki and look at the feisty page And just kind of take your time and match it up because again, you're just giving us a good Overview of of this. So there's a whole there's a whole chapter. There's a whole chapter on There's actually there's actually two separate chapters. One of them Is um Pisces serial numbers which basically focuses almost completely on serial numbers and the other one is identifying your pisces And that's more general about the type of alloy and also the type of stamp you have With that said, I guess we can kind of get into the meat meat and potatoes, which would be the different Symbol lines. Yeah Yeah, let's do it. Okay sounds good. So the first one, which is kind of the granddaddy of everything It's a sample now um if if we start Probably the easiest way to start is that we start at the end and go backwards in some ways or start at least start at the end then go back to the beginning kind of like a a Good movie plot. Um, that's gonna say yes very cinematic I don't have a real start date. I I've read scene 1930 but We as in the piscy wiki Don't have any information before 1950 1950 is the earliest catalog we have that's the earliest that we've seen anything related to piscy. Um, we do know from interviews about Uh, uh pre-war and like 1947 about the setting up in a barn Um, but supposedly stamp rules go back to around 1930 which make make it I didn't I didn't do the math for this But it's either the longest or one of the longest running symbol lines that piscy made because you're talking 1930 to 1978 So that's a 48 year run. I think that 2002's beat that now but It was a very long run that stamp rule became the 505 which you'll get into And it was originally piscy's top tier symbol nickel silver, of course made made in germany right, uh, yeah The stamp will refer to the you know symbols turkish is sample. Is that kind of pulling on that reference? So through throughout history with with piscy stamps um The the first thing is is the acknowledgement and the reference to The turkish style symbol, right? I mean when you look at history, you basically have You've got you have two you have two styles of symbols You have chinese symbols, which are very old I think they go back over a thousand years or what's more than that And then you have you have turkish style symbols, which is really the western That's what the western world knows and that's the standard And that will will always be the standard and that is basically the shape the sound and the fact that they use b20 Or close proximity of that of that mixture So my understanding the stamp will That there's a there's a my research um I was looking at old sonar catalogs because sonar had a relationship with piscy Uh all throughout the 50s. They distributed piscy's and I was looking at pre war and I had a pre-worsed uh sonar catalog and they had K zilgin stamp bull k zilgin comma stamp bull. I'm like, oh my god. These are piscy's And after doing further research, I realized I believe and somebody could correct me that stamp bull is basically the name of an area a district um in turkey where those symbols were made And that's that's where mccail got that name from but basically stamp bull is a reference or acknowledgement of turkish style symbols, which is what he Because remember he also made gongs which were asian based So he had these two words and he actually had traveled asia and learned gong making in asia and the 1920s So throughout history You see the star and crescent moon, which is very heavily associated with turkey and it's on the turkish flag Which is actually venus and the moon and then with the majority of piscy's Logos for their series, especially the top one You'll see the star and a crescent moon and then you'll see rays emanating from that Which is I think we talked about in the older episodes that the name piscy is to shine in the stonia That's right. That's right. I'm kind of making a guess here and educating guess that that's how they developed that that uh that that uh logo for the 602 now the stamp bull as As I have several examples um Is quite different and if you look very closely at the bottom where it has the cursive writing of piscy If you look at the p it looks kind of messy. There's this weird kind of Squiggle at the bottom the base of the p and if you look very closely, that's an m And what it is is that's mackael piscy because that was that was like a signature. Yes Yeah, so the old so that was the old school stem bulls had This little hidden m in the base of the p for mackael piscy and that was that was the last line that actually had his signature on so um with these um They're interesting. I mean if anything, they're kind of um, um A piece of history. I have one next to the public one of the very first symbols. Mr fritz gave me he uh He he he you know, he's owned a drum shop in in south uh southwestern germany for several years And a local school contacted him. They said hey, can you take our old stuff? And there's an old closet and he pulled a bunch of stuff out And there was an old nickel silver stamp ball and he gave it to me and I did all his research on and I looked at the stamp And I looked at the symbol. I'm like, this is hand hammered This is like this is really weird. Look it is a weird looking symbol And I think it was the early period before 52. I think that's a I think that's probably not 47 But probably 49 or 50 is when they when piscy moved To the wrensburg plant, which is where they still are today in germany And I think this is a this is a pre machine hammered stamp ball what I have So really quick with the stamp balls um And and what's important with them is because this ties in with the 602s And if you're looking at it really actually with super form of the 602s, which is which will be next on my list With the old stamp balls you have a couple of factors one I call the big bell And when you look at these symbols, the bells are kind of odd. They're like an igloo They're very symmetrical and they're very kind of boldness around And they're big for the size of the symbol They also had small mounting holes because the symbol stands Right the tilt was much smaller and much more flimsy So instead of the standard half inch hole, you know or 12 or 13 millimeter because these are metric The other thing too is that these stamp balls were all metric. They weren't in inches So when you look at them People put them up for sale, you know, they're like You know 18 and like a quarter inches because they're actually metric At any rate, that's interesting. Yeah with the stamp balls what you have through time is you have big bell small hole And what I call the wide stamp and the stamp is distinctly different Then you get into what's called the narrow stamp stamp balls And that's just the way that the stamp is the format where it's closer together I think this is around the time When robert started producing stem balls in switzerland in in 57 The bell size I think continued up through Probably 63 or 64 When then what's what's called the small what I call the small bell Now during this time And there's literally could do a whole other episode on this is Pisces relationship with Ludwig And remember I was saying that yes robert with the sky were in a b20 source to produce a b20 symbols Completely changed the company and wouldn't be the company that they were today. Well, it's exact same time there was Bill Ludwig senior and bill Ludwig jr And if it wasn't for those companies that from Ludwig again, pisces would not be the company they are today and Really quick. I really I'll get into this in distributors, but but Pisces developed a distribution deal with Ludwig In 57 well in 56 because they were in the 57 catalog from Ludwig Ludwig started selling stamp balls In the u.s underneath zillions as an entry-level symbol now You know Pisces has a history of this and this is actually really important when you're looking at these old symbols They have a history of creating the custom stamp for a particular distributor They don't do that now, but they used to back in the 50s and 60s So what they did is they created what's called the Ludwig three star And it's a Ludwig name a cursive writing. I've got a picture of this and it's got three stars above it and There were stamp balls. There was literally all it was the chance of stamp. So they're nickel silver stamp balls um As we go through through time you get up to about 64 65 um And and this really really I should cover more with Ludwig, but they changed the stamp and now they then become the Ludwig standard Same symbol still a sample all that it was changed the stamp, but it actually looks like a 602 stamp now This is where it gets important people sometimes configure the Ludwig standard stamp Because it has the crescent the crescent moon star and the rays Then it's a standard above it, but that format looks it is it's the same format they use for 602s So a lot of people You know, they don't have experience of Pisces. They're like, oh, maybe this is the one 602 But it isn't uh, it's a nickel silver stamp ball Um also during this time is when the bells changed right before they went from the three star To the standard which would have been around 64 65 the bell size changed and it became more normal what we see today So that's how i'm able to date The symbols as you could see the change There's very few small bell three star Ludwigs But there are no big bell standard Ludwig and I know the Ludwig standard came out about 65 So that means that they changed the bell size before that while they're still producing the three stars But because there's not I haven't said a lot of the small bell three stars. It was probably the last year of production. So anyways There's actually a lot of Ludwig standards and three stars on reverb relatively speaking a lot and I don't think they're particularly valuable Um, they're okay sounded symbols. They're they're very I guess niche oriented, you know, if you want a particular sound But and and because nickel silver is really soft They tend to get really tweaked to bed the edges are bent You know with modern playing and stuff. So well and there were beginner symbols They were they were sold a lot of times. They were given away. I actually have ads Um, where it was part of a package deal you buy Ludwig drum set you get a set of symbols And I guarantee you those are three stars or those were those are standards What did happen with symbols? Is around 71 72 There's what I call the great b8 shift And that's when for the most part at least in the swiss factory um They stopped so they stopped using nickel silver and all the lower lines were switched over to b8 So that'll also which happened with the stamp bull, which is the Ludwig standard now I actually have one I have a b8 Ludwig standard. I've only seen a couple They're really rare where you see a ton of nickel silver standards So my guess is from just the rarity That and I'll I'll get into more detail that they stopped producing Ludwig standards around 72 or maybe early 73 Because that's right when when they came on on stream, you know full full time with b8 Okay stambles Um, yep, let me really see it's just to sum it up though collectability not super collectible There's obviously some odd balls here and there and stick out as being a little more collectible But beginner symbol the the b8 b8 stambles If you could find one later in the later 70s, I actually have a pair of hi hats German mid low 13s They're actually sound really good. I mean they're really I mean they're basically what they know is they're basically 505s because they're the predecessor of the 505 but when they Transitioned in 78 77 78 from stambles to 505s early 505s were made exactly the same same latings and having even at the same same weights That the stambles series had now for whatever reason the early The early stambles and I'll get into Dixie's also the early stambles and b8 Dixie's are just they're kind of odd The first thing is is that feisty has a habit Of of their lower line series, especially back then we're talking 60 70s and even the 80s But especially 60 70s the lower line series like the stambles Or the Dixie or the Ludwig standard Or also the local the Ludwig stenoble, which is just a Dixie with a different name Which i'm assuming is is a contraction of constant in opal, right? Yes The whole line are basically shifted down one weight. In other words, they're very thin So if you've got a symbol that's labeled a heavy, it's really more of a medium weight It's equivalent of like a 2002 medium. Okay, and weight, right, which is really a crash or a crash, right If you've got a symbol labeled a medium, that's a thin. That's really a thin weight symbol If you have a thin symbol that's labeled a thin. I've got a b8 Each of its Ludwig standard b8 thin that thing. It's like paper mache. It is so thin. It's stupid It's it's a paper thin symbol So I think this was done basically for for cost saving because you're using less material I mean, that's my guess, but sure. Okay, they just they don't they don't survive and the nickel silver versions are basically the same way They're very thin, you know, I mean you have to really look into like a heavy To to really have a substantial weight symbol that you can crash right on So play. Okay. Yeah Real quick that kind of appendix of the whole stand bowl thing is a stand bowl 65 and They're Pisces best kept secret. The first thing is stambles Were never important to the us now. They were under Ludwig's name, right? But once the relationship which I'll get into later between Ludwig and Pisces once once once that ended We never got stambles We also never got stambles 65. That was a european only a series So like I was saying earlier the 65 was the first b8 symbol I was it was introduced in 65. We actually have a catalog from 65 that shows them listed Um, and they only came in at two weights didn't crash in medium right and then a series of hi-hats 16 18 20 22 and then 13 14 15 attiants. Hi-hats are pretty thin. There would be considered like a medium hi at it best But they sound really good. I I love them. I've got I own about a dozen And I even found a pair this crazy story Another story, this is another mr. Fritz story. I called the great clean out of 2003 There's a period around 2003 2004 when eric took over Where he went through pisces vault and he basically just anything that wasn't bolted down He like kicked out the door because there was all of this stuff in there That was like I've been sitting around and I believe There were some stambles 65s that had been there for literally like 45 years And I found a music store in italy like a big music chain like a guitar center They had these two 16 of stambles 65 thing crashes for sale. They were new But these are pretty surreal. These are pretty surreal Unbelievable stambles 65s got serial numbers. The swiss versions got serial numbers in 72 Now these are germans, but these got to be like late 60s And they're they're new old stock so And and I mean they sound beautiful. They're amazing I've got about a three-eight inch crashes couple 20s a couple 22s and I would say The closest they sell would be 505s Because they're they're more gentle than 2002s. They're not as aggressive But they still have that nice sweet high end that it'd be a good b8 symbol has and they're Destruction-wise, I mean, I don't know why they're considered, you know, a secondary symbol because to me that looked like, you know top-class symbols at any rate That was for me that was a big discovery That was the I think that's pysons best kept secret and they're actually relatively common in germany if you get on german ebay or or I'm gonna mispronounce this climb in ziegen Which is an offshoot of ebay. It's um I forgot what translates to but It's very specific. They actually Almost everything I bought was off of that one site because they just have I don't know what it is With germany, but it's it's you have talking to my friend nils. A lot of it is you have You have a say a father or or a grandfather that was a drummer and you know, he's old He's retired as I play the drums for 20 years or he sadly passed away Now one of the kids is is going through their garage and they're cleaning out and they find his old drums and they put it up on german ebay and You know, you have these symbols that were last used in the 1970s and they've been sitting in a garage for 40 45 years and they put them up for sale $100 150 bucks 200 dollars, you know And they're amazing finds and even with 602s I don't get it. It's like With the german market. It's like they keep their symbols in really good shape And they're like like cheap. They're like ridiculously. They're like ridiculously like undervalued And I tell them there's a good tip. I don't understand. It's like if somebody sold a six of the This 602 they're selling we go for like triple the price here on reaver And he's like well, he's like that's the market, you know a lot of it is it's because it's The the the children or the grandchildren are selling this and they don't know the value and they just you know So there's there's an abundance of it. Yeah, there's some amazing finds. So, okay, so Yep, let's let's get moving here. So let's let's go to the big one. This is this is a real big one This is really the last year and a half or so I really started out like my interest in collecting I was like, oh, you know I want to find like cool b8 symbols. I would like to be at sound but play 2002 since like 1980 yada yada yada I also played had some sound creations in 602s, which I really liked Well, I'm like, you know, I I don't have a lot of money to spend so I'll find some old cool pisces that are b8 I learned all the What the weights they're really thin ways the symbols are really kind of dead. They're really thin They don't have a lot of sustain And then I realized, you know, especially with nil's help I could find really nice 602s like old 602s for really reasonable amounts I also have a friend Raphael Zimmerman in switzerland who lives across the lake from Notwell Yes, great guy. Yep. Who turns me on us to two Symbols in switzerland as well and italy is a big market tale Even though in my experience, they seem to be quite a bit more expensive than the symbols you find in germany anyways So when we get to 602s, we have to start with the super formula Because that was the first one. There's a lot of speculation between Todd and I about Exactly, you know, pice officially states they're produced from 57 to 59 but There's no There's we don't have any catalogs in other words. We have a catalog from 58 that doesn't list them at all now It's a german catalog So it's hard to tell because that could be from the german factory and all they have are stem bulls and zilkos listed in 58 There's no mention of 602s so it's really hard to tell but Kind of the general consensus is as that robert spent a couple years Making these symbols and small quantities. They're kind of really the most prototypes that wasn't until maybe 59 That he kind of settled on a consistent Design, I guess again, this is speculation What you do have and this is actually and I've got I'll show pictures and I actually I own about Five super formulas right now um They're they're not common, but they do come up again in germany Um, they had four stamps They had two distinct styles And and each of those two styles. They had a variation. So so four different stamps now This is where it gets confusing. You had the stamp bull style, which again, I'll show a picture and you've Saved from the stamp bull symbols that very classic piste star crescent moon and then trademark on each side and the name underneath They used the same stamp, but then they put super formula 602 underneath it Or it just said super without 602. So that's the that's the super formula. What we call the super formula stamp Then we have what's called the super formula plane stamp And that is the first sighting you see of The star and crescent moon and then the rays emanating from right to left, which is a classic 602 logo, right? Well, the first one all it said was piste And then star crescent moon and then the rays there was no mention of formula 602 or super formula 602 So I call those the plane stamp and then there's a variation of that Where it's exact same stamp, but in the right corner in cursive writing. It's a super And I've never seen one of those. I have a picture of it, which I'll show I've never seen one now my friend Nils did recently buy a stamp bull super only Super formula 602. In other words, it doesn't say super formula 602 It's just a super under the standard stamp bull stamp Now it's very confusing in that through This era We're talking 59 60 Maybe 58 59 60 61 um There was a change over in and I'll I'll show pictures of the shape of the bells and what you see is I'm assuming the early early super formulas had the stamp bull bell because they had the igloo shaped bell Very symmetrical very bulbous, right? And I have a couple of those But I also have a super formula that has a much more conventional bell that smaller and smoother I would assume that The early early big bell or stamp bull shaped bells were the early versions And then robber switched to a different die to stamp the bell That was smaller And and kind of more modern looking Now what doesn't make sense though is that The super formulas I have that have the the the old fashioned archaic bell Those are the plain stamp. So those have the 602 format stamp The symbols I have that have the more modern shaped bell Have the stamp bull style stamp, which you think would be older So it doesn't make any sense. So I don't understand Yeah Why it should be backwards the stamp bull stamp should be older and then the plain stamp Should come later at any rate Um Lavin is is different Uh, the bells obviously are different on the early versions. Um, there's 602s You know, they're b20 They're really really good sounding symbols now Unfortunately, all the ones I have are 14 and 15 inches or hi-hats. I don't have any crashes or riots. Unfortunately Even though I do have one I bought from Italy that's at nil's house and nil's is gonna shit me I do have a 20 inch probably a medium right that is a plain stamp. So it's just the plain the plain uh, uh Crescent moon star in the rays and a piste above it So we'll see when I get it. I'll play with it and it has the big bell also So, yeah Collectible obviously symbols because I mean 602s are a flagship kind of everyone knows um, yeah Sawed after here's something to take an account to is that All 602s especially back then in the 60s. They were jazz symbols and they're played by jazz drummers, which means that they were Pretty much ridden and not crashed If they were crashed or crashed lightly and they were played with light sticks and they were not played hard You know My experience b20 is more durable than b8 is it's it's a harder alloy You know, and we'll get into it later with with my experts at the cleaning and all that kind of stuff it's It's it was a big difference because Cleaning these symbols they respond completely different to even a mild abrasive a b20 Just I mean you don't have to really just rub the crap out of or b8 You can literally just let me wipe it and you see the polish up right away and that has to do with hardness anyways Get into 602s officially 59 and 94 is the official date but but We're thinking you know You know me it's really it's Todd Todd is using advertising dates and and this is what we have to go on And again, this goes back to we just don't have any there's no information from feisty, even though I'm pretty sure they they may have Documentation catalogs. I'm kind of assuming are they do I mean they had Bonham's contracts still You know from 71 so on the internet in a catalog here in america is not exactly what's Actually the dates so yeah, I getcha anyways, so we're thinking though official formula 602s We're thinking probably 62 maybe even as late as 63 Now the first generation 602s are very different and I have actually a few the first thing is the stamp and Along with the plain stamp You'll notice it's what I call the e over trade because the e of feisty is over the little trade or of trademark and You'll see that shift there's a shift around 65 Where that the the stamp is actually expanded as larger and they move the e over so it is now I guess it would be to the left of trademark That's a big indicator now We have a couple of catalogs of a catalog that has the e over trade logo We have another catalog from 65 that has the pre-serial what we call the solid stamp So we think around 64 is a turnover point where they changed that stamp. No, there's another big factor too. Um Ludwig again In the game changing things They picked up in 64 They started to distribute in 65 602s and Again, it really I don't have enough information I I needed to get off my butt and and go like talk to a bunch of people, you know But they took a trip to the factory. Uh, this was this was uh bill junior And bob yeager who was the owner of the pro drum shop in hollywood his stepson still run to this day Uh, he was bob yeager was one of bill Ludwig's uh, largest Distributors or customers, I guess of Ludwig drums and he became kind of his um technical advisor So they paid a visit to pysuit 64 and this was the beginning of the contract where Ludwig was going to distribute 602s any, you know, united states Which I'll get into later but we think that there was a turnover And not only the stamp but also the design of the symbols because I have and I have a picture of it A 70s 602 and then an e over trade 602 for about 63 And I have them side by side and the bell is completely different. The lading is different You know, and it's still a 602, but Design wise it's substantially different and it's a small hole. It's a small mounting hole So they were still producing small mounting hole symbols probably in 63 or even 64 Um, wow and remind me real quick. The small mounting hole is Representative of what exactly is that the more of the european? It's the simple stands of that era because they're very small Flimsy and the actual tilter itself That the the thread size they were using was was much smaller Okay, so it's not a geographic thing. It is a just to help date it Yes, because I think zildan's from that era also had smaller holes too because I there's actually a thread on dfo about Should I drill out the hole on my classic zildan to fit on a modern stand? Sure. Yeah So, okay, so the other thing Um, the super formulas had different names too Um thin ride thin ride crash like except for like a medium ride crash I assume that those all were dropped when when they transitioned to the 602 But I found that that they did it. Um Even though it's not listed in the catalogs, um, and I'll cover this a little bit later I've got an arbiter custom 602 Which was the 602's that iver arbiter distributed in england, which what ringo had In get back At any rate, I found out it's very very hard to see but that even though this is probably like a 63 64 symbol I was able to find the label It's really really faint, but you can see in the picture. It's a thin ride Which is it's the weight. It's really more like a thin crash, but some of the details, uh, Which which actually are really important with dating 602's Um going back to the stamps This is around 64 65 is when you have the change over to what we call the solid stamp This stamp was carried all the way Up into the serial era and I don't really know when They switched to what's what we call the outline stamp um, I've got A I've got a 602 with a 74 seal number on it that has the solid stamp So But there's a story behind that too, which it may not be a 74 602 It could be a nice 70 71, but they definitely carry over You know, we're basically talking now we have that we have that landmark And we know about 65 they changed the stamp So from about 62 63 to 65 you had the eover trade Then at 65 the big change Ludwig came on board. It seemed like they really changed the structure of the symbol Uh, the standardized much much more modern of what you see today Okay, and a 602 today or from the black labels in the 70s, right as far as shaping the bell Laving the model names and then the stamp And from that period of 65 to 71 right right before they added serial numbers This is when you see them expanding the line Obviously the big one was the addition of the sound edges and this was around 67 and You could date sound edges and pre-serial sound edges in two different ways generally The first one is the number of ripples or waves on the bottom symbol And it turns out that early sound edges had a lot more ripples as many as with a 14 inches many is 56 And then once we get into the serial number error that drops down to to as low as I think about 32 Which is what they they they use now um, the other thing was is that the early the 67 Through I believe July 69 to be exact Um, you know, probably applied for a patent, but they didn't get the patent till July 69. So and I have a pair where that two year two and a half year period It just says patent pending on the inside of the symbol Inside the bell. So, you know, even though you don't have serial numbers, you know, okay I've got pre-serial 602's sound edges and it's it only says patent pen So that means it's got to be produced between 67 and probably mid point 69 So that's a good. Yeah, that's helpful. Um You also had around the same period of time was the introduction of the seven sound set now I don't really have any proof of this except for just advertising, but pierre fought fave father I really don't know how I pronounced his last name. I'm sorry He was for the student's predecessor and he was basically The head of sound development or the main sound development person that worked with robert because robert was really sound development But he always had a a cohort. I guess the best way to put it so pierre worked for pisci from 64 to 70 So I think this may have been part of his development because Um, I mean, it's just an advertisement, but it's him playing the seven sound set now What is the seven sound set? It's seven unique symbols. But what it really is it's pisci's first introduction of a splash Chinese symbol flat ride bell Those are the ones that we still carry with us today, but those that originally Were not part of the regular 602 line They were a separate even though they were they were formerly 602s. They were considered a separate line Called the seven sound set. The other thing would they be sold as one like usually like as a you could buy it as a pack or Okay, cool. You could or you could buy them individually and ludwig also offered them in their catalogs Okay, so the other thing that's also notoriety starting Knowing what the seven sound set but also with the sound edges Was the change in laving and people know when they look at 602s they have very um unique Course laving you look at the laving. It's actually really big the the lands and grooves right on on a 602 is is very Present I don't know how else I put it. It's big thick and What the sound edge is it almost they're not laid because it's so fine And all the symbols in the seven sound set same way They have that ultra fine laving the bell the splash the flat ride the chinese symbol now What I found out recently wasn't until I bought one. It's over there Um, I've only had uh 2002 505 in sound creation. China's um The 602 china which is really it wasn't the first chinese symbol they produced they actually produced a march in china Uh in the stem bull series before that but Top line chinese symbol was The 602 china time now the weird thing was is when I got mine. I thought there was something wrong with it Because it's not a chinese symbol. It's a pang Really, which is a little flatter and not as like the edge is not curved It's the bow the symbol comes down and then the edge is completely flat I I didn't realize that and I actually asked daniel plasco because he's got He's got all three or he's got four. He's got 16 18 20 and 22 Blue label 602s. I'm like, hey, I said is the edge curved. He's like, no, they're flat. I'm like, what? I didn't realize that because they're very unique Yeah, and they're they're much more They don't they don't have that traditional chinese sound they they sound a lot like iso japan, which is a lot more sustained It is chinese ish sounding But it's definitely more more of a crash cymbal sound and anyway, um, the last one That has the same type of leaving was The first artist model series sabian is not the first cymbal company to offer model series And I know that they've advertised that for years I don't know why because it's it's widely known That pride piste made the joe morello sat with The deal with lugwig I don't know the exact details because I've got billa lugwig's book. He doesn't really talk about how but they Dot joe to endorse piste and he played piste for quite a long time And I believe this was probably around 66 67 and I'll have to check the wiki, but I think that joe morello sat came out around 67 They were 602s But they were slightly different and had the fine-laving that the seven sounds that had And they were basically to his specification Which I think was part of it was the fine-laving is what he liked Um, and that was 14 of chi hats 17 instant crash 18 instant crash and then a 20 inch It's not labeled a medium ride. They actually don't have names from what I remember just 17 18 20 and then the 14 of chi hats but They fall in line with those weights. I believe Um, the other thing too was is that joe morello was actually behind the creation of the flat ride by accident Wow, he is famously and it's come up about a bunch of episodes. Yeah really Cares about the sound of things from what I might might understand and I Again, I camera for this and bill lugwig's book. I think it was a bill lugwig's book um They were in switzerland. It was probably when they're working out the doors would deal with with um Joe morello, but they were dinner with with the pisci brothers and bill bill junior and joe morello And joe had just gotten a watch or in switzerland He got of course the swiss or known for the chocolate in their watches So back then it was a super little profile watch very very thin, which you know, and they were mechanical very hard to make So very nice watch and joe shows them shows the pisci brothers the watch say hey Can you guys make a symbol like this this thin and of course robert being robert? Hmm Let me think about that So the next day, you know, he went to the factory and he told the guys don't press a bell in it and then just hammer and laid it and That was a creation of the flat ride. It was basically a joke And that's how yeah, and and they had a patent on that too Really quick. I'll just a little appendix on this because we're pretty much I think we're pretty much through the 602s. Um, okay We could obviously people are more familiar with the 70s with the black labels You know really for the longest time 602s were were pisces flagship You know, they're known for the 2002s, but the 602s were really the flagship for a long long time and and I really like them to be either very exotic, you know, they're very unique One of the suggestions I make is go up at least two inches So in other words, if you've got a 16 and 18 a zilgen And you're and you want to try you want to compare to 602 I would compare to an 18 and 20 or even 19 and 20 because With the increased size you're dropping the pitch down. You're getting closer in general pitch That you would with the savings and zilgins, right? Because that that's what you're hearing, you know is that that difference in the alloy production Produces that very clear high end and from the beginning the I have all these on the wiki We've got all these Ludwig ads All these ads say the bright new sound from day one, but we Marketed that sound quality that 602s had so they knew it from the get-go that they sounded different They were brighter. Yeah, they were a different sounding symbol and that is, you know, the european sound that is You know, which is true, but those those monikers that are put on Uh branding really sticks with things through throughout the rest of history good or bad Which it's a whole other discussion there, but yeah, I've seen a lot of drummers will will Not so much 602s, but they they they described 2002s as glassy 2002s aren't glassy. They're metallic It's yeah, that's a good way to put it 602s are crystalline They're they're if anything they're polite, you know, they don't they don't have They don't have the creamy quality like I said earlier They don't have that that that coffee ice cream that coffee with heavy cream To me, that's the zilgins avian sound And 602s don't have that they don't have that that I mean the low frequencies are there But it's more of they have such an accentuated high frequencies that it overshadows those What low frequencies they do have which are there they're substantial Real quick the appendix I was going to add on is the german 602s and I've got oddly enough, it's a joe morello symbol um In the 70s it looks like there were I've I've found a few pictures. It's actually from steve black as his archive of like A thousand or plus pictures of Pisces is collected from like ebay and all over the place chat forums And I found at least three or four symbols in there that are definitely german made They've got the german serial starts with a one but more importantly they have the eover trade stamp Which we know by the time you get in the mid 70s the 602s the swiss made 602s We're using what's called the outline stamp. So that's the first giveaway is the serial number because it's a one And you think oh, okay. Well, it's an 81 symbol. Well, the problem is is that and Todd little pointed this out When you look at those numbers by the time you're getting 81 You're into the blue label phase So that can't be a swiss made 602 from 81 because it would have been a blue label 602 so it has to be that has to be a german serial and The the the stamp is different. It's using that the archaic eover trade stamp, which is really odd And the only thing you think of is that's what they had at the german factory. They didn't have the modern Outline stamp that not will have been used since like 72 73 I don't really understand why They were producing 602s Kind of I bounce us off of mr. Fritz I think a lot of it is they were selling in the 70s to Say, astonia or eastern europe or it may have just been for the german market. The one thing about the german factory is predominantly um And we'll get into the models later the individual models basically Number one up until recently. I don't think we didn't get anything here from the german factory The german factory was really focused mainly in on germany on the german market alone So it could have been That they're producing a small number 602s only for the german market or for the german market and what they could get into eastern europe Now remember 70s. We're talking about the iron curtain in the cold war so With the exception of a few countries it was very very hard to export Across through the iron curtain. I guess the best ways to put it Sure, but They are uh, they already said they are are unique. So yeah, yeah So to just kind of sum up those that section though, would it be and I know we might have a little more here, but like The the collectability of those there's obviously a wide gamut that you can run across sizes and symbols and things But that seems like things where if you're a player and you're really trying to get some high end Top tier symbols 602s are a good investment. Yes for your collection Yeah, and probably the number one thing with them is a fact that they're for the most part in very good condition um and with age when they age they mellow and They're they're not as crystalline and bright and this is present. They're still they're still bright symbols They still have the top. Yeah, but I from the versions of the symbols that I have I could I could hear the difference which I would think what would uh be even more in line with what drivers were looking for, you know I guess a more teen version is the best way to put it John de christopher told me Um, and he's a really good point that he won't buy a symbol unless he can hear it and he really Wants to hear the civil. Yes person That's what vincent said on the zilgen one all of what we're saying about collecting it comes down to playing it and the sound and sound files can be manipulated not in like a really like a Nefarious way, but in like uh, you put a little eq on it You put a little top end you pull a little bottom and it screws with what the actual sound is or you're you're using your phone I mean, that's what I did. I've got a bunch of videos on youtube But i'm using my phone audio and it's all compressed and sounds like crap Yeah, um a good again back to big big jd back to john uh gentleman drummer Mr. Alfredo in italy very nice gentleman. I I bought That 20th plane stamp super from the 602 from him He had a 16 16 inch e over trade 602. So that's an early 63 64 Maybe 62 and I know Uh, big jd's been looking for his charlie watt set up, you know, he wants he wants that 16 And that's the one thing missing. He's got he's got his dry beats. He's got his 2002 medium You know, but I know he wants that he really wants an arbiter 16, which is gonna be really hard to find But yeah, alfredo had a 16 inch you over trade 602 and It just was very serendipitous that john was on vacation in italy in rome And I messaged him and I said, hey, I know this guy Alfredo and he's selling this symbol and I was gonna buy it But I bought his 20 instead and he's like give me this information and he actually met up with them Had an espresso the guy brought the symbol with him and john played it in the cafe He's like, you know what it's too heavy for me. I was looking for I need something. I want something center But he literally was yeah, tested in person. That wasn't that long ago. Yeah, that's awesome Wow, very cool. Yeah, cool. All right. Well dan and uh, this has been incredible So I want to tell everyone dan and I have kind of decided that uh, we're two hours into this and there's still a fair amount to go your First episodes you did I believe we hit the 70s where things blew up with modern kind of more rock music And we decided two hours in there. Let's do a part two Yeah, we're pretty much getting into that, you know 1970s I know we the 602s went into that but we're getting into giant beats in 2000 twos and things So things to look forward to for part two is we will talk about the giant beats the 2000 twos the 3000s The sound creations vintage lower lines that are worth considering Uh modern symbols dark ride Oh, yeah, the dark ride. Oh, yeah, we will talk about the 602 dark ride. That'll probably be what we start with us distributors european distributors and then also wiki symbol cleaning supplemental information and symbol care. I am looking at Dan's outline when I'm reading that I didn't just rattle that off the top of my head Four pages five pages. So that's why we're stopping now because there's so much more to talk about and not just do that So anyway, all that being said Dan, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge coming back on for another mega Piste episode. I know everyone enjoys it who likes piste and just symbols in general. So Dan until the next time. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I appreciate it I appreciate people spending their time watching this and now Probably gonna get to a point of like, okay, what is against the good stuff? It's all good. It is all the good stuff Yeah, there's there's a lot there's a lot a lot more stuff coming a lot a lot of good stuff that the meat potato It's got to create the cliffhanger. So yes, cool. Thank you for being here, Dan. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Bye