 Okay, welcome back. We started our first class on Introduction to Counseling. We looked at certain core elements of biblical counseling and I think in the last class that we had, there was one question that came up from one of the students and I think she requested for a little bit more of clarity about sanctification. Okay, and maybe I'll quickly try and see how best. I know it's a huge topic, but quickly try and explain this as best as possible. So I trust you understood, Anita, what justification is. So sanctification is a process by which you as a believer become more conformed into Christ's likeness or into the image of Christ. So, you know, we are redeemed when we believe and we trust Jesus as a seed, we are redeemed, but yet we are imperfect. So as we become more conformed to who Christ is or to the likeness of Christ, we allow the rule and the reign of Jesus in our hearts to change us and that becomes and what you are moving into is a place of what we call as holiness. So while we may have been justified or positionally holy, that is because of our trust in Jesus, we still continue to sin. We know that we still sin. And that's why you know, scripture refers to sanctification as a practical experience of our separation to God. So progressive sanctification is the obedience to God's word in our life. And or it's the same as like you're growing in the Lord into spiritual maturity. So what God, God started the work of making us like Christ and he is continuing it till the day of approaching or till the day comes. So it is for us as believers, we are to pursue that as a believer earnestly. And how is that done is it is by by it is it is put to effect by the word of God by the application of God's word. So progressive sanctification is setting a part of those who are believe believers for the purpose for which we were sent to the world. You know, he's sent us to the world. He sanctified us. You know, so I think John 1719 says sanctify it says that they may to for I for them, I sanctify myself. Jesus is saying that they too may be truly sanctified so that Jesus set himself apart for God's purpose in both the basis and the condition of our being set apart. So we are sanctified and sent because just like the way Jesus was. So Jesus's sanctification is the pattern of and the power for our own. So we are being moved little by little every day into becoming more like Christ. And that's something that we continue doing moving from a place of sin into a place of Christ likeness. So that's what we are focusing on also in counseling, where it is a gradual sanctity. It is a sanctification sanctification of gradual move from being in a place of sinful nature to a place of being into Christ likeness. Okay, I hope I answered that for you. All right. Okay, great. Just just kind of give me a minute. I'll just share the screen. Okay. So moving on, let's look at to what are some of the basic tenets of of Christian counseling. Okay, there may be certain overlaps but here I just would like to these are like the pillars of counseling. Okay, so let's just take some time to look at each of this one by one. So as we had said, the Bible is the soul and sufficient authority in counseling and dealing with problems. And there are certain scriptures that's given in your books. And you know, I would encourage you to go back and read it. And why do we say that? Like we know first the second Timothy 3 16 17 says that scripture is inspired by God and it is profitable. That means it is useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction into righteousness. So the Bible has the authority and is enough to help people to move away from their places of problems because scripture gives instructions and correction to one and all. Okay. To Timothy 3 16, sorry 3 17 says that that so that we can be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. So we can be sanctified into being useful for God. Okay. Second Peter 1 3 says that God's divine power has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. So everything that we need for our life and for our godliness is something that can be is found in scripture. And that familiar verse of Hebrews 4 12 that says that the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. And it pierces even to the division of soul and spirit and joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. So scripture is enough to help us to deal with the things, the problems of the soul, problems of the spirit and problems of the mind. Okay. So that's the first tenet that we're looking at. The second one is to understand that the counseling of Christian counseling is the work of God. And it is the Holy Spirit's ministry. So we read that in John 14, John chapter 14 verses 15 to 17, that he's the one who convicts us of our sin. He's the one who brings about that conviction of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. Right. There are other scriptures that talks about that the work of God being, that the counseling being the work of God. One is Romans 15 13 that it says we abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. We have a place of hope because of what the Holy Spirit has given us. First Corinthians 10 13, that's another scripture that talks about how no temptation has overtaken us that is not common to man, but that God is faithful and he will not allow us to be tempted beyond what you're able able to bear. But in those temptations, he will make a way of escape that you may be able to bear it. Okay. So the work of God counseling is the work of God. And that is the ministry of the Holy Spirit that he, he's the one who convicts. He's the one who comforts. He's the one who brings about a process of change. Okay. Going to the next one, certain biblical counseling principles that we need to have an understanding as we move ahead is one to understand the nature of man. Okay. To understand that man is depraved. So what does that mean? Man is depraved means man is totally wicked and is one who cannot save himself. And we see that in scriptures in Romans 3 23, it says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So there is a depravity in every man, wickedness, sinfulness in every man and we, and all issues and problems come as a result of the fallen nature of man. And that's what separates us from, separates us from God. So understanding that man, any man is depraved, is sinful, is wicked. Okay. To know that it is only Christ and what he has done on the cross is our only means of salvation. Now, when we say salvation, we're using the word sozo here. Sozo to mean total salvation. That's just not salvation of the soul, but healing for the body, healing for the mind, all of that. So it is an encompassing salvation that only trust in Christ alone and his work on the cross is that means of salvation. And the only way for us to establish that relationship with God. And we see that in scripture of, you know, where it says in Acts 4 12, there is salvation in no other name under heaven. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must saved, but by the name of Jesus. So that is our understanding that help and salvation and save, saving grace and wholeness comes only because of trust in Christ alone. Okay. The third tenant is the third one is that the agents of change, who are the agents of change? The agents of change is not you as a counselor, you're a facilitator. The agent of change is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. As John 16, 8 says that he comes to convict the world of sin of righteousness and of judgment. So as he convicts, as the word of God reveals, change happens. Okay. And the last one is submission. This is submission to Christ alone can bring about a solution to the problems of man, which is caused by sin. Man trying to work his sinful nature on his own finds himself falling. And that's how that's what we would see that, you know, whenever we depend on our own strength, on our own abilities, we do find getting back into a state of wickedness and sin, but submitting to Christ and his word is that only solution for for man. So that's yet another tenant. Okay. Going on the basic goal for counseling is, as you see here, is a goal of counseling is to give direction or instruction from the Bible so that the counseling can achieve God's goals or his purposes in the person's life. And some scripture that I just want to bring out is First Timothy chapter one verse five that says that either the purpose for us is to love from a pure heart or from a good conscience or from faith. That's the purpose that God has called each one of us each one of us to do. Or another scripture in your books is Colossians 127 28 it is Jesus who you preach warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. So the the direction is is to become Christ like and to fulfill the purposes of God. Okay. The next one is that the personal qualities of the counselor uh needs to be spiritual and not just academic. So when when we're looking at at that what we're saying is that yes it is important to have skills in counseling to know to have a good knowledge scientific understanding of what counseling is that makes you an efficient counselor but the the main quality of a Christian counselor is spiritual is being one who is saved by the blood of the Lamb one who is under the submission and authority and wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ one who is careful about teaching others about about God. So you know I like this verse which says in 1st Timothy 4 12 it says keep a close watch on yourself and on your teaching stay true to what is right and God will save you and those who hear you. So and if you if you remember what one of the things that we had spoken about earlier was that every discipline every discipline outside of every philosophy that comes must be tested and tried by the word of God and so a counselor who is completely an academician and is not spiritual tends to take on principle and philosophies that may be outside of what what scripture talks about. So counselor's qualifications needs just not to be not merely academic but it needs to be spiritual as well. Can I share something first? Yes yes please. This is Charles. Yes Charles go ahead. I'm responding on the academic part of it I'm looking at the places like rehabilitation centers where these guys are really academically when they have studied these things from universities and they take someone in the rehabilitation center and that person is thought to have been rehabilitated is brought back home but in the next three days they are back into the same trap. So when it is spiritual then it works there is change but when it is totally academic it will continue the cycle will again continue and there might not be any change. Thank you. Absolutely Charles and I think when you bought this I maybe I'm missing this point earlier when we were talking about sin being the the fundamental issue that we need to help deal with to understand that spiritual problems become the root of very many physical and emotional problems right and in my next few slides where I'm going to give you a difference of biblical counseling or christian counseling and secular counseling this will be highlighted a little bit more is that the focus often tends to be on behavior but not the heart and as a result when you're trying to bring about a change only in the behavior without bringing a change in the heart you will find yourself falling back into the same addiction or same kind of problem situation as you did earlier so so yes in counseling going to the root of the problem is actually knowing that there has been separation between God and man because of the that's come in and this is what I would say some of the limitations in secular counseling because a lot of focus is given on the mind focus is given on the body focus given on everything's on the mind you know the thought will and the emotions but coming into the spirit is something that often counselors or secular counselors miss out or maybe the counseling has has no orientation towards that and and feels that isn't a part of them so then you know it becomes very limited in its scope this is my personal experience and my personal understanding and thought okay all right we'll move to the next point yeah so as we were saying as a counselor or as a person who is in the body of Christ helping becomes a responsibility for each one of us we are called you know it is it is a process of helping that is that is what we are called for and we see that in many scriptures in Romans 15 14 it talks of how you know we're filled with all knowledge you know because of our our love to Christ and we are also called to admonish and bear with one another or Hebrews 10 24 and 25 says let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works and you know we need to be exhorting one another again James talks about this and says if anyone is away from the truth and you know someone should turn him back and let him know that he's in error and that and by doing so you're saving a soul from from death and you're covering over a multitude of sins so we are called to to respond in that in that process of helping to be able to be in a place of helping those who are in need okay again I think we've spoken about this the ultimate aim of counseling is to ensure that they grow in maturity of Christ that by doing so the person is free to be able to worship and to serve God and as a result growing in their strength and their maturity in Christ and last of course I'll take that question I'll just complete this and last of course prayer becomes an integral part of of counseling and what would this this it becomes an important aspect because the use of prayer and scriptures during these sessions you know what you're doing is you're actually asking God for discernment and sensitivity on your part especially you know if the client is not a Christian and sometimes I've seen that the use of proper timing with regard to prayer and scripture can in counseling can be very important and I and I state you know testament to this like I said I do see a lot of people who aren't believers and there may be times especially when they are going through significant stress and strain something that doesn't even there's no hope there doesn't seem any form of a solution in in the way forward and just the use of prayer at that time so let me give you an example so I was meeting with this client who was an unbeliever and she was trying to cope with with the illness of her husband and he was significantly ill for around two years had almost lost him to death because of the severity of the illness but recovered many times and the time that she came to me was the third cycle of illness that came about and she called me one evening right after our session a couple of hours after our session and you know broke down saying that you know she's fearful that her husband may not live he may not survive the night and you know that was I think the best time or the opportune moment for me to tell her that you know that it is a very difficult time for her and would she be okay if I pray alongside with her because I believe that something that a human person cannot do is I cannot restore him but I you know I believe in a God who can who can do that restoration and healing and she was very open to it and she immediately took to it and I just prayed a very simple prayer asking for healing over her husband and she calls me two days back and she said you know they had to go to the hospital but there was a there was a turnover that happened and and that was and that was maybe the only time that I spoke to her about it but it came up later in a conversation of she says you know I remember that you know you supported me through prayer and that was very encouraging so there is a time that you use there is a proper timing for it and use of prayer or even use of scripture and I remember another time when when a woman you know she was caught in her adultery and her husband was extremely mad at her and her her her so-called lover had you know pulled his back and exposed her to her husband and she felt extremely betrayed and extremely dejected so then you know and she she called you know in the session she said you know I just don't have peace of mind and and I said I said you know that would you be okay if I send you some some material that will help to to calm your mind and I said it is taken from the Bible so I did take her permission and I said would you be okay if I send that to her and she readily agreed and I and I sent her a couple of Psalms you know and she she kept reading it and a couple of days later she actually messaged saying you know that's been so uplifting I've never read something like this before so so there may be times like this that you just probably add in certain seeds but it can it can be very very useful and helpful okay uh yes mangy I think you have a question would you like to bring your question mangy thank you question now at the beginning of of chapter of the book when you you're telling us about what counseling is not about you say that it's not which it's not going in with our own perspective it's not giving advice but yet in in the basic tenets point three third one say that she we give biblical instruction so it's say the goal of counseling is to give instruction from the bible so that's the cancelli can achieve goals so does it not does that not contract it the contract it to the first point she said that it's not giving advice so it's not it's allowing the uh cancelli coming up with their own uh solutions okay so yeah okay so extremely good question so let me let me bring a context to this okay now in remember in christian counseling we are understanding that the basis for counseling is the bible is the scripture and something we do in the center in in the center at apc the counseling center at apc is we disclose what are our foundational principles and beliefs so we have a consent form and we write in it that that we are we are uh scripturally based although we do use psychological techniques okay so there is an understanding that any any form of the orientation that we have towards counseling is biblical based now what does that mean so if my counseling is someone who is a believer and a christian what i do is um open what scripture shows about a certain condition or a certain situation i open that up for them i i bring about what scripture instructs about a certain problem or a certain situation and that's something that scripture has written so and and what i do with the counseling is ask them what it means to them or whether it speaks to them or it has revealed something to them so there the counseling is free to say i know that but i don't want to obey it or i see it let me have time to think about it or yes god is revealing something to me so my responsibility is to open up the perspective of what scripture brings and then allow the counseling to take a decision on their own okay now looking at a person who is not a believer what i do is i so so does that mean in my secular counseling i don't stand on the principle of what scripture says yes i do i do um so you will never hear me advising someone like for example someone's coming in with a divorce and they're saying you know i want to divorce someone so i wouldn't ever say you know i think you're making a great decision i wouldn't say that but what i would do is can we think about the situation can we think about the pros and the cons of a divorce or the pros and the cons of a whatever the situation maybe let's think about it and um help you try and come with a basic understanding of it so what i would do is to present perspectives and even scripturally i present a biblical principle or present a biblical perspective and allow the counseling to come to a place of decision making okay because like we said the the the work of counseling is the holy spirit i'm a facilitator to open up instruction or to open up what scripture talks about and ask the counseling what meaning it makes for them and whether that could help to change some form of their their situation or their behavior so so that's what we would do we're not saying you know this is what the bible instructs you to do and this is what you should do go do it and come back no i would say you know being a believer let's also from all the practical aspects that the counseling has spotted i will also bring about a biblical aspect and say this is what scripture says what does that mean to you what do you think um how do you think that speaks to you or how does it speak to your situation so to help them to come to a place of uh exploring what the word says understanding it and then putting that forward into action is is what i would do so did i under did i answer your question mangy yes you did thank you so much all right great okay good so i have i have a follow-up i have a follow-up who yes tells about that um if i heard clearly that means that you are not advising them but you are suggesting possible ways your advice might be coming but you are giving them uh possible ways on how they can handle it maybe using the word of God but you are not directly telling them do this do this do this you bring suggestions and then you you walk them through the suggestions and they can come up with the new revelations with the new findings is that the way or yeah so what we're doing is now even in secular counseling uh so with all the confusion that a counseling may come in what you're helping them to do is to look at the situation through different perspectives and so that's what you're doing you know you as a counselor because you are not emotionally involved with the person you may be able to see in the line of scripture what are some of the areas that they may be missing out so as a counselor what you're doing is through conversation you're also presenting certain perspectives and saying you know have what do you think about uh okay so let me at the end make it give it to you in an example maybe easier um so we'll take Susan for that matter all right so Susan Susan uh feels something about her husband okay and of course now this is not the first line of uh you know response please remember this is not the first line of responses probably be in my probably third or fourth or fifth session that we are bringing about a discussion like this okay so what we are helping her see now she was very focused on the individual on her husband now what we are also helping her do is to look at what ways do you think uh you know you may be contributing to the entire situation so you've given her a different perspective rather than keeping it focused on the person of her husband in time you are helping her to look within herself to see uh what is it that is that is within her that is probably giving her a sense of a um a color of her husband like this so what would be going on inside so that's a perspective change so you're helping her see you know would you like to look at within yourself to see what is it that that may be contributing to this very problem in the relationship so that's a different perspective so similarly you are opening up a different perspective by opening up scripture by showing instructions from scripture and helping them to come to a place of exploration so giving perspectives is something that you do in counseling because often counselors come with a very single focused mind and say okay this is what I want to do and but they have not looked at different other aspects in relation to that or anything surrounding it so yes we do give perspectives and help the counselor to come to a place of judgment and determining their own way forward in the situation so yes okay all right so let's go on to the to the next couple of slides just just quickly this isn't in your book but I just felt it was necessary for us to understand that you know the study of the human mind is what psychology is and why do we need to use psychology and is it okay to use principles in psychology so this is a couple of my understanding and that that I've put forth uh so you it is it's important like for example when you do business you would draw from management principles right or if you are into a healing ministry you would also draw from practical understanding of the human body and the science and treatment and things like that so God has given us different things that help you know has has bought about wisdom and understanding through his people to to give us a better understanding of things and how do we relate so we use psychology number one to have a better understanding of what human behavior is about however in our next to next class in the third week we are going to be looking at understanding man right through the bible so because you need to understand personality in order to understand how you can help right so we're going to be looking at that also but in psychology you get to have a good understanding of human behavior and that's why we use that now psychology can definitely offer you insights that improve on your counseling skills as to what would a certain skill help you enhance what kind of questions are helpful what what are best responses that you can get when you say something so yes psychology definitely offers this kind of good insights to help you with that okay it also helps you to understand how problems interact to psychological symptoms so they may like we said you know we we have an understanding that all problems most problems can be spiritual in nature sorry it's not all some problems can be spiritual in nature right and so to to know that how that gets manifested into a psychological symptom like for for someone who is significantly depressed over time right it it helps you understand what you know when you really look into the spiritual being of the person what has been you know their experiences with people their experience the way that they see God maybe their life or the kind of issues that they've been they've been struggling with in their spirit it manifests out in some emotional or behavioral problems so it gives you a good understanding of these interactions that that take place you know and and because when you're coming from a spiritual background you do also see how the needs that that man has specific needs a man has how that translates into into certain psychological symptoms like for example let's say you know we as people as human beings we all have a need to be loved need to be accepted okay and how does that manifest with psychological symptoms maybe it is a craving of attention or it may be you know very flamboyant hysterical behavior now so that helps you to connect that you know okay the person is someone who is in a very needy a person who needs a lot of acceptance and love and this is how they are psychologically manifesting it so psychology helps you to understand that however the something that I had spoken about earlier is the caution that we need to develop a strategy to evaluate these principles in the light of scripture so there are so many techniques and theories that come about that we need to be very careful to see if they fall in the line of scripture okay and that of course requires us discerning and reading and researching and you know maybe even even insights by talking to to people who are strong in the world to to give us a basic understanding of what strategy we may be using okay I just want to go forward can you all see the slides are you able to see the slides okay great okay now just a couple of just a few differences to help you to understand you know what what are we looking at when we're seeing about differences in so the first and foremost the central belief in biblical counseling is that God is supreme that he is the one who is Lord over everything over a man's will a man's mind a man's life everything he is supreme whereas in secular counseling the central belief is that the self is supreme that I am the ruler of everything I control everything I'm able to make the changes that I want but if you look in biblical counseling there is always a dependence on God dependence on scripture dependence on the Holy Spirit to bring about change or to bring about any form of an action so that becomes the central difference and that's what the central belief is okay in biblical counseling the Bible becomes the base for wisdom guidance and advice whereas in secular counseling it's more introspection examination of the self and the will that brings about the change now I'll give you a very simple example so I'm meeting a woman a married woman who who is into polyamory which means being in multiple relationships while being married and also you know all the partners being aware of this relationship now this this this woman she she comes with with the understanding or she she knows or deep within her heart she knows that what she's doing is definitely not right and is destructive to her mind her soul her body her relationships very well aware but is in a place where she does not want to move away from that life into something else because there is the need to feel that the self will becomes very predominant I don't want to change this is the way that I am I don't want to change for anybody else although this is giving me these many problems you know I still want to continue this way so this is a person I've been seeing for the last couple of months I think around four or five months and you know the fact that uh she's she's stuck with me through these four months and through every conversation what I'm doing is I'm helping her see this lifestyle and what it is doing to her the misery that it's bringing her the bondage that she's in and every time you know she comes in says you know I just understand that this is just not the way to go but I can't give it up right so what happens is the self becomes like I said the self becomes extremely supreme and for a person who does not know God or does not know the word of God opening up scripture is the biggest and the idealist thing to do and the best thing to do however there is there is a there is a blindness that comes that it is okay to be in a life of sin so what happens is that's why you would find secular counselors to say you know go do what makes you feel right but nobody ever helps them to understand that makes you feel right definitely has a lot of consequences to it a lot of damaging results to it and this again like I said so I was just bringing out the difference to help you see that this becomes one of the basic differences between um secular counseling and biblical counseling okay the next one is there is a premise to understand that man is sinful and fallen which makes him separate from God that is the understanding we have whereas in secular understanding is that every man is good they're innately good they are they are good right from the start and no matter what they do it is okay and they are capable of solving their own problems okay so the focus is a lot on the individual rather than on the creator okay next the difference is the absolute truth is the bible and that becomes the yardstick for measuring truth that's what is in biblical counseling but in secular counseling there's no absolute truths it is if this is right for you go ahead and do it if that doesn't seem right for you it's okay right so that's that becomes again the premise there the other difference is that uh in biblical counseling problems are solved on god's standards and like we said the bible becomes the instructional book for that guidance and advice that is in secular counseling the problems are solved on the terms of the world's standards and for anything that creates that happiness and success so if I'm happy then I'm good right if I'm successful then I'm good there has there's very little to do with working out the spirit now even as I'm saying this it doesn't mean that all clients all counselors who come who are secular don't do the searching a lot of them search and a lot of them are looking for the deeper meaning of what all of this is about and that becomes the most opportune time to open up scripture and I've and I've done that a couple of times you know when they say everything seems so meaningless there's nothing I mean I just begin to see there's nothing in me that can bring about happiness there has to be something more and that becomes the best in the opportune time to open up scripture okay the next difference is the premise of biblical counseling holds is that the and that man's purpose is to bring glory to god and have sufficiency in him alone everything comes from god everything goes back to god whereas in secular counseling it's that the man's purpose is to be independent and be self-sufficient and to realize their own potential for full human expression okay so you see that that it's it's a lot to do with the self it is about building the self biblical counseling the dependence is on the holy spirit in secular counseling dependence is on personal autonomy okay that each person to their own each one to their own biblical counseling the scripture validates man is totally accepted and is of self-worth regardless of performance that you don't have to do anything or you don't have to be in a place of performance to or do anything in order to be accepted whereas in the world system its self-worth is always based on something it's on a performance it's on accomplishment it's on approval it's on acceptance of others okay the last one is that true satisfaction is found in a relationship with god and the pursuit of godliness in biblical counseling whereas in secular counseling a lot of the counseling approaches are need-based they believe that if their needs are met they will be people who are happy as against in biblical counseling where it is a relationship with god that brings about happiness so what should be how do we integrate this well is number one to understand that psychology must come under the authority of scripture to know that bible is the inspired and the revelation of god that has no falsity in it and to know that the biblical principles is not only it's it's not just a doctrine but it's something that even a counselor is practicing and that's what you bring about as a perspective to a counseling and you truly integrate it well when you weed out or you take away any elements of psychology that is opposing to what god says in in his word okay all right i'm open for any specific questions that you all may have at this point of time we are close to an hour on yeah any questions yes samu go ahead suppressive so for you know let's say in the secular context and this may not necessarily be in a counselor counseling environment it could just be like let's say in the office amongst colleagues or you know let's say a new like maybe more in the practice like let's say i'm in the office and there's a new joining who's put under me or maybe i'm in a work where my job is is to help young kids like so more in a secular context and some of the things that we looked at so i'm i don't know sir but maybe this is my own limitation but let me put the like let's say where the opportunity of just opening a bible and you know exploring biblical principles is limited or is something probably a little weird to do like let's say you know so where it's just it's just about people looking at you or looking at you for advice or or depending on you as a team leader or anything in that in that sense and and and um so i'm so i'm thinking and i would probably depend on some of the secular principles that you show like uh autonomous like autonomy is something that you know in in this organization the more autonomously between your value the more and things like that you know so i mean i don't see it as wrong but i'm i'm trying to i'm just trying to wrap my head i mean so so again this is not counseling how many per se but just a way of approach in the world where people aren't coming to you for counsel but at the same time you are mentor to somebody or your your team leader to a bunch of people and you're just doing some aspects of a counselor so is it how like i wouldn't say bad but like you know depending like applying some of this secular principalities of counseling so so is that i mean in a way it is limiting because eventually we would want everyone to come to god and be reconciled it's good but but at the same time i think there is some limitation so i don't know there probably there are multiple questions so one is is it okay to stay in that realm and two is um you know how does one so it's like secular counseling has limitation but in that context how does one bring about biblical counseling okay so since you did bring it up as you know and i'm and i'm taking that question not in the form of counseling but but general interactions with people so it is it's not like you said it's not wrong to be self aware to build yourself to determine things for yourself it's not wrong what i think the issue happens when you lord everything else around the self when the self becomes the lord of your life because you and i understand that the more there is uh dependence kept on the self that one day you will begin to see it all crumble maybe it helps at the point of time you know self improvement and self development and self growth yes it it does help but there will come a point of time when your resources become deplete when your self resources become deplete so practically how do we deal with something like that i think in your in the case that you spoke about it is an example that you show maybe you being a team lead and you have some you know kids under you to in through your example or your lifestyle or through your decision making uh exhibiting that your dependence is not just on your own wisdom and knowledge and strength and skill but that your dependence is on somebody greater than you and that it comes from there and that may not be like a teaching position that may be more like a being position where you are living that kind of a lifestyle or even in similar you know simple conversations you know someone comes to you and says hey you know you did so well you're such a disciplined person or you're you're so this and just being able to give a response that is fitting and saying you know i know where that comes from on my own i can't do it i know but then i i seek the help of of the lord in my life in doing that now those are ways that you show your dependence now in counseling we were talking about in secular counseling it is not raw like you said it's not wrong to do that but it is limiting it is it you can you can take them halfway to the race but the rest of the race you've left them unguarded they don't know how to go forward so that's what i meant by limiting do people use these approaches yes they do i mean that's what the entire world is doing you know using these approaches to build the self and the qualities of the self to deal with their with their situation but it's not lasting it's not something that has a firm ground or a firm foundation so that's what i said my bite is it becomes a limiting and the essence so whenever i meet with a counselor counseling who is not a believer this is this one thing that i have in mind that they need to begin to see how much of themselves they cannot depend on that they need to come to a place of seeking to say there is somebody more than there's something more than this that can fulfill the deeper needs of my heart those critical needs that may be a relationship can't that money can't that that you know fame can't that a position can't because all of this at a point of time is going to fade so to get them to come to that place is where you know that that's the goal that i generally do have and i meet with a with a counselor to get them to a place of seeking yes i may be helping them to develop skills of their own because they don't have anything else they they are void of anything else but to encourage them to also say okay great this is what you're doing right now but you may need to think deeper into finding out what is within yeah i hope i didn't ramble and i answered your question samil christopher would you like to christopher i think you have a question yes can you can hear me faster yes yes i can yeah i can christ yeah so i just want to actually uh i just kind of understand a little bit because you're in this particular case on this uh you had mentioned about this uh polia morris uh you know the woman who was involved in that um way of life um i just want to understand you know what was what was some of the reasons for her to i mean prompting her to come to you for help knowing that you come from a very you know spiritual background and also from your from your uh from where you came from what what made you uh you know decide that you know you would you would want to take on a possibly quite a complicated case and um in that process uh or i tell you mentioned a couple of months i think you've you've probably uh you know focused more on not so much on the spiritual side but uh how do you sort of go about you know um in the in the first again in the initial stages how is how do you kind of you know not really you know do christian counseling but you know you're focusing more on uh maybe trust and developing trust and you know stuff like that uh how do you go about uh doing that so that's that's really my question okay two questions ahead right okay so the first one why did she choose me uh i don't i'm i'm not sure maybe i've never asked her that um but i think the first thing that she said when she came to me was that i want someone who will not judge me someone who is a listener someone who will just help me walk through what i'm going through so she she stated that very clearly and i think the first session was was for her to test me to see whether i'm going to be in a place of judgment okay and i think in next class when we work on this we will see that that's one of the biggest principles of counseling is having a non-judgmental attitude so i'd say that's why she stuck on with me um uh because there's probably uh there is an acceptance of the person of the individual for who she is not of the behavior never have i condoned and said you know this is good or acceptable or this makes you feel right this is never that's that's never come uh as a suggestion from me the second thing that you said is uh i think you were asked about the counseling uh how how what do i do yes i i do not um i do not work with her you know from a christian background at her however there are principles we bring up for discussions about asking and helping her source out why is she here in this in the first place in in the place that she is in right now what is what what does she thinks have been her basic core needs that she's attempting to meet through this through these relationships what what is that she's hoping to achieve out of um her relationships with this hoping to achieve and receive for herself so these are questions that that we do discuss and it helps her to think it helps her to understand it's helping her to make choices so over there i think that's as far as i have got as of now i'm just you know so one thing that i do for all my clients whether they're christian or whether or not is to pray and ask the lord to open up wisdom and i think while i was talking about this you know when you are in counseling whether it's to a christian or to anybody else i mean god loves them whether they believe is or not is that your eye is not just on your counselor counseling your eyes on the holy spirit to help you guide you in the way that you you deal with them so there are times you know i'm praying i said holy spirit i don't know what she's up to and i have no clue how to help her but give me the right things to say and and show her love despite this so some of i think even looking at you know the the ministry of jesus and how he ministered he ministered to them in compassion okay and out of that compassion they began to see themselves and began to see uh uh you know just because of his compassion they began to see the sin in themselves so i believe it's a ministry like that even if it is to those who aren't believers you show compassion you show love you show acceptance for the person not again for the behavior don't get me wrong get for the person and value them for who they are but with with a sense of love and compassion helping them deal with them through their problems i believe that the holy spirit will one day bring about some form of a form of a change or for a or a change in heart so very difficult to answer that complete question Christopher because i'm i'm still dealing with her and every new session is a is a new eye opener for me um on the way to focus and to help her to see a little more deeper from from what she seems to be receiving at this point so some people take longer some people take shorter some people don't see it at all but again you know i think the work of a counselor is to know that it's not dependent on you so earlier i used to be be upset when something doesn't work out or doesn't happen or the counselor is not able to see it but now i mean i've come to a place of understanding that the holy spirits knows best and if i've been able to work them through certain aspects of their spirit nature i think i've put in the seed yeah i think that's where i'd like to stop okay um if there are any questions please do um um put up i think yeah bet you put up a question and we'll deal with it next week i will write that down can we quickly just stop with a word of prayer please have any father we thank you god for this time and for helping us look into the ministry of counseling lord there are many things we may not understand many ways we may uh we we find hard to progress into helping others but holy spirit we pray that we will be guided and directed by you in helping those who come to us whether they trust in you or they do not because lord for you you love each one as your own children lord i pray for each of us even as we move ahead in these classes that you will open our understanding reveal things to us as both from your word and both practical so that we can work towards what you have called us to do i bless each student on the call i pray god that you will go ahead of them thank you once again we ask all these things in your precious name amen amen thank you god bless we meet again next week thank you ma'am