 convoluted, very difficult rug. So I think we stand in great danger of losing a large part of a great treasure of music which should actually find an audience whether it's large, whether it's the stadium people, full of people, or whether it's just a small room with 150 people. We need to keep digging. See I just want to add to this that yes it they have they may have been times when actually things look gloomy or things look like God you know who's going to come forward and you know take this forward but things happen like for instance when you're talking about rare rugs that is something that was bothering me for more than 10 years and I can see this project called our prayer which is not yeah it's a concept because you need guts to put up a 24 hour concept and we did that and we've completed four years we are in the fifth year this year by grace of God and you need to put up a big hand for that. We demand for the effort for the guts the risk and the conviction that people will lap it up the sponsors will stand by you because we are going to produce great authentic stuff I just want to add to it that when we produced it when we actually came forward and put that whole project together art prayer is based on the time cycle of Hindustani classical music and we are very fortunate that Hindustani classical music is the only classical music where in you actually have a ragtime base so we produced it and we've had four successful years and we've had thousands of people sitting there from morning six o'clock till 4.30 next morning and people have been traveling from across the world to attend it so it's not like it's getting how many of us are making that effort to actually do something I mean you know as artists you need to prepare yourself that you may be you know slaughtered in any slot and you better have options of ten rags five will not do and as a producer I have to take that risk that yes I have to come into the artist way in advance we have to come into the auditorium and we have to come into the press and media and everything I mean the fact is that there needs to be like you said conviction and possibly a bit of knowledge of the promoter of an event of a production because even all in the radio or the music labels when they used to record a lot of classical stuff you had classical music experts sitting over there we were talking about folk music so there's an earlier panel pop on which Jesse was mentioning about Punjabi music and how it's being sung at so many weddings etc what happens in the regions especially the northeast because we know very little about that region what happens with functions with ceremonies weddings etc over there is folk music the dominant music that is played there or have they all started singing Bollywood and Punjabi songs well I think till I'm not till I but some time back my my wedding I remember and so we have these women and generally in in both side of the families they are teasing the other side in laws in a very interesting way these are called be an arm so there I think it's all over India you get this folk a traditional wedding songs everywhere there is so ours is called be an arm so everyone would sing and they're on the spot make new lines you know while teasing suppose another guy's come with a red shirt she'll make the song and the guy with the red shirt like oh is he from the dulhan kisai dadi to we have you know so this amazing tradition where we grew up in it still rings those like the melodies in this few sets of melodies which every state will have that's dying and it's gone now I don't see any wedding it's mostly now for some reason we also have a song eat in a Sam which doesn't play it plays no it plays marshmallow also I mean it's not necessary Punjabi it can be anything you know so that whole regional beautiful thing should be encouraged you know and consciously with we should all do that so for those of you who don't know Abhinav Agarwal runs an NGO called the Anhad Foundation which is actually trying to promote folk music across India with folk music not popular but grassroot folk musicians so this is something that's a challenge right how did you think of getting into this it's so difficult to do why are you doing it concept I'll go to the neck out of my recording so that I can listen to them again so I thought I'll go out of my studio and record it before doing it I did research on how big the problem is I found out that 70% of our country's 70% of our entire music industry is folk and cultural music but only 2% of the entire revenues go to the 70% so this is the scale okay and this problem come in a kind of a technology say attribute cut for example called pep on a new gunner release kya I know so Facebook person up now abhi kya ori ki dunya badal riya pala a hammock analog zamane metha abham digital ke tarah ja rahe hain to recording industry ek aisa madhya meh jose ik supply increase karthi hai uske baad live us supply ko demand ke through cater karthi hai. Lekin in folk musicians ke pas itna paisa nahi hota hai ki wo ek recording studio meh ja ke 1000 rupee prati gante ke aisaap se ek ache recording kar pa hain. Ek sabse bada challenge ye, dhusa sabse bada ek structural challenge hai. Classical in folk music can't be recorded in a very pop music way. It's a jazz music type, jazz music meh jose ki ek koi metronome nahi hota hai, it's a free flow of the thing. Maine koshish kari ki hum folk music ek metronome pe record kar hain. And as soon as I recorded that thing, that totally killed the vibe of that thing. And hume kuch aise strategy nikal nahi thi ki hum joh meh folk music record kar nahi. Isko hume live hi record kar nahi. Agar hum isse multitrack format meh ek ek kar ke record kar hain meh metronome pe so it will kill the vibe. Abhi kya aur hai ki studios hai humare desh meh. Lekin zada tar studios ke pas yeh live recording ke facilities nahi hoti ki hum multitrack hum art heart kar pa hain. So agar hum ish cheez ki baat karte hai ki radio pe aaj kail, inka time kum hota jaar raha hai aur iska sabse bada karun yeh bhi hai ki folk music ki jo recording quality hai. This is not sufficient enough. Uski quality itni bekar hai ki it can't compete with the contemporary music. And kahe nahi, kahe nahi agar woh sunne meh achha nahi lagega toh usse hum appreciate kahan se karenge. Right. So you are going out and doing a lot of recordings of folk artists. Durga, you've got a huge bank of stuff that you've recorded. Why haven't you put it out? Firstly, me and Neeraj, my partner over there who's sitting there with the phone, Neeraj Jaitley. We actually were traveling a lot across India, the length and breadth. So while we were doing that, we actually were meeting a lot of folk musicians across the country and we felt that this is the real wealth of India. And bohot saari jo cheez hai mujhe humne jab research karna shuru kiya state wise to dekhah ki har state ke jo humara research mil raha tha uske bohot saari genres ke musicians ni mil rehte. Wo toh saar paper pe rahega hai ab. To humne pachchi states me, har state me kuch-kuch kilometers ke doori pe recording studio dhunde, jiski quality achhi ho aur wahar us region ke konse folk musicians hai jo ye genres gaasate hai. To har state me, we have got now thousand tracks of each state. So 25,000 tracks of Indian folk music, we have recorded through our own, thank you so much, really encourages us really. This is huge encouragement. Right now it is raw. Like Papon asked that, I really, I loved your response. You're a very rich person. I don't know. I don't have, it is the wealth of India. We have just recorded this in time, kyu ki pata nahi 10 saal ke baad usm se aur 30 genres honge jo log nahi perform kar pahenge. Lekin right now we have a recording of it. There's so much of possibility with it. We understand that because we have 24 gata hum log din ke wo hi sushte rehte ki humko iske saath karna kya hai. But the previous panel was brands. Why don't you go to one of the brands and ask them to do something? It's not all that easy. And everything takes time. And this is because I told him ki itna muskil kaam hai. Chahi 8 prayer ho, chahi you called idea Jalsa legendary, I'm really honoured. And also 8 prayer or even Panchat Atwar, Tiranga, whatever projects we have done, ki me ne ka, me ne itni idea gizge ki mere idea hi nahi bachi abhi. Jodh bol rahi, I can see them from here. Mai satch kaya ri hum, bagar people, I feel very happy doing everything. And that's why I think that happiness, that positivity of doing things like that. So at this time as I said ki 25,000 tracks hai aur usko humne authentic farmers jo, jo real musicians hai unse jake humn lo record bhi kar hain. It's of decent quality. We are still contemplating how do we put it out. But yes, radio is going to be the first medium we're going to be trying and applying and using and making them as local heroes. That's the strategy we have for which now we have also started Atenatus Foundation. So Atenatus Private Limited now has a foundation wherein we will be focusing on all these things and also very importantly, instrument makers and education of music in schools. So we've already started that. So any brands who are looking to promote music, please, please do promote folk music and our traditional music. Shubha, you had something to say about. Yeah, I was because this is a meeting of people who really care about music. I want to put across one suggestion and I think it's sorely needed, whether it pertains only to traditional music or whether it pertains, I think it pertains to all kinds of music in India. And I think that the one thing that we need desperately is a proper data collection of how many professional musicians are there in India with their demographic specifics and data. Are they professional? Are they semi-professional? Are they amateur? Do they have other day jobs and are they doing music after their day jobs? I think we cannot think of planning welfare schemes for musicians if we do not know what are the numbers that we are catering to. And I think it's very necessary. I know of so many eminent musicians who have set up charity foundations. Now, it's their money and it's their will to give to whomever they want to. But unfortunately, musicians who are setting up foundations very often are not looking at doing work like this because that's not an event-based kind of thing. I think it's desperately needed that we today work out how many musicians there are. They have to fly routes that nobody else wants to fly. Exactly, so. You had a thing to say. That was not so important, maybe, but I was just wondering, I mean, we know this answer, but as a layman, why can't there be a couple more radio channels which can play other kind of stuff? OK, so I just hold that thought. So you've done so many recordings as an NGO. Where are you getting the money from? Who's funding you? So we have won lots of competitions. The competition is the one thing. And apart from that, CSR is the biggest area. You know, this is very interesting. You guys have to listen to this. So please tell them about the whole CSR story. So the story started when I like registered my... No, tell me a short story. There are 7 minutes left. So I registered my organization in 2013. So my entire concept was that I had to work on preservation and documentation. For two years, I went to different places and asked for funds. I didn't get any funds anywhere. Everyone appreciated it. After that, they said that in our CSR policy, we have to make cleaners and toilets, but these things are not cultured. Your work is very good. You have our support. Gradually, I understood that policy making is very bad. All these CSR policies are related to UNDP policies. So there are 18 SDGs in UNDP, and they are about poverty, elevation, health care. There is no cultured in this. So what we did was we rebranded our entire program for the project. And we made it a project for a livelihood generation. And after that, we started pitching it to different CSRs. And our first selection criteria of working with this folk musicians was that if this is under the poverty line, as soon as we did this, we started getting funds. Lovely. Lovely. So, you know, everyone has said something about policy. It's a great thing. Everyone has said something about policy. So I want to ask you, if you ever made cultural minister tomorrow, what would you do as policy for music? First of all, I'd ask for that data, but apart from that, I would review policies and various kinds of programs that are already in existence. No, there is no culture policy that you can access very easily and has never been whatever government has been in place. I would also make a big effort to join hands with other ministries and other areas of policy. For example, tourism. But it is culture and tourism. Yes, but the tourism department very often doesn't know what is happening in the culture ministry. And those policies in the culture ministry, which are excellent. For example, one which is about to do with a repertory. So the government of India actually gives you a repertory grant to work with as many as 26 people in your repertory. And each one of those people is given a monthly salary for a year. You as director can actually get a salary as director of the repertory. But guess what the salary is? It is 6,000 rupees a month for your repertory members and 10,000 rupees for the director. Now this is below even the minimum wages that we have in place. So you see the disparity. It's a great idea. If I want to work on a project and I want 26 other people to work with me, I think it's such a brilliant idea. But we haven't reviewed it for many, many decades. And therefore we are still offering this kind of money, which would leave people. I mean, it would do me a lot of good because I'd lose weight. I think I just starve. But apart from that, it's not going to help me sing. So I think those reviews are required. And I would certainly ask for those reviews. Durga, what would you do? Well, I don't know if I would become a minister of a culture, but I'd like to put up my hand and say that I'd like to use the mainstream media to present. I believe in entertainment, the power of entertainment. I believe in the power of presentation. I believe in having good productions, which attract even the youngest person. You don't have to force everything onto anybody. It will never work. It has to attract your six sensibilities, you know. So whether if it attracts your eyes, then your ears will also give you time. If your ears give you time, your heart and mind will give you time. And that is the introduction. The window opens up and the world of music will open up to you. The journey then is, you know, can be of a single person or it can be a collective journey or whatever. Attracting the person into your industry is the foremost thing. And for that, the media and your production values and, of course, the talent. These three things have to be of great high quality. And you open, you put it on to television, radio, and now, of course, YouTube and many other apps and everything, everything that is available. So for me, that is foremost important. Papuan, we were talking earlier and someone was mentioning about a certain percentage of music that should be of the region where the broadcast comes from. So what's your take on that? Do you think it's fair? Do you think it's okay to be telling broadcasters, listen, 30% of your music or 40% of your music has to be music from the region? Would you do that if you were minister tomorrow? Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Actually, all of this makes sense, whatever been said. That is definitely what, I mean, every region has to, there is a system like that in place. There's that they have to be more professional fees for the people who are working and so that better professionals will work in that industry, cultural affairs or whatever. And all the things reviewed has to be reviewed, have it updated, update them to the kind of production level which has to happen. All this has to happen. It is there, but it's not there. With that kind of money, it's just, they have to put in money and make it a thing that, you know, it's kind of, I mean, there has to be results otherwise. Okay, so you know, you've been mentioning money. I mean, I want to ask you something. Now these artists you've been recording, what kind of instruments have they been playing? Have they been playing traditional instruments? Are they playing keyboards? All of them are playing traditional instruments. So this is a conversation. So I have recorded five albums now. I've got two GMAs for two of the best folk albums and everything has been, I mean, everything has been traditional instruments as recorded and it sounded so good the way we record it now that as he said also the production has to be that good. So if people are playing traditional instruments, please understand, folk music comes from playing your local music on your local instruments. So why is it now that we are seeing, so the other day we were with an artist from Jharkhand and she was showing me an instrument that used to be made of leaves at one point of time, but today it's not being manufactured, it's being made of plastic or of steel. So why is it that this is happening and what is the problem here? Why are we not seeing these folk instruments? Shobha, you have an insight into this. Well craftsmen, you know, are not given, when you think of the welfare of an ecosystem, you have to think of the welfare of each person in that ecosystem. So for example, we've never had the tradition of saying that here I am on stage and I'm using tantras made by this family from Miraj. Giving that family and that master craftsman due importance and respect is absolutely necessary. Otherwise we are going to face a situation where there may be people making tantras outside India, but the craftsmen in India will give up that entire tradition. Absolutely. So we all know guitars by Fender, but we don't know tantras by whom. I mean, that's a reflection of how popular music has impacted traditional music and music forms. Can I just at 30 seconds? We have zero minutes, over time. Yeah, we are over time. I just want to add to this instrument makers have a problem. You know, I mean the thing is that whether it is sitar or tantra, the tumba, I don't know the English word for the tumba. The kadduka comes from Miraj and goes to even Calcutta's sitar. But the interstate taxations in the beach and every state's taxations are different. So unless that uniformity doesn't come and I hope that has been included in GST, otherwise what happens is that by the time it reaches Calcutta for it to be made into a sitar, it is already sky high and above. So there is no uniformity. And I think the problem lies there that plastic is easily available there. The tumba is not easily available. It will be available anywhere. So that's why it's being made of plastic and the leaves will be in a particular region where you are talking about the instrument. And who will recognize those leaves today? So the problem lies in that we need specialized people. For them we need to nurture them. For that you need to have. And I hope that Artenata's Foundation is taking some steps towards that and we are really looking forward to working on this front. Good. So anyway, we have overtime so I might as well ask another question. Why is it that we don't have music appreciation being done at the school level? So at least people are conscious of the music. So suddenly there's been this thing about state languages and compulsory, Marathi compulsory in Maharashtra, et cetera, et cetera, and this big debate that's been happening about Hindi. Why is it that we can't talk to our children about their music and the instruments that are used to create that music? What holds us back? We have art classes where people are given chart papers to cut chart paper and make baskets. How many basket makers are there in the future, I don't know. But definitely everyone will listen to music. So what holds us back? What is the problem? I think a vibrant arts education program has not been included in our education system. From 2005 onwards, NCRT has recommended that arts education be made available on a compulsory and not just compulsory but you have to evaluate it. So if you're not given marks in a subject nobody treats it seriously. So even for arts education there has been a move to introduce arts education and that includes a wide-ranging topics like music, theater, visual arts, et cetera. But unfortunately from the 2005 recommendation till today, NCRT has also set up an arts education department. But we have not developed ways and means of creating a syllabus that actually tells people how to appreciate music. We want each of our students to become performers and I feel that is a big problem. You can't have an army of, you can't have lakhs and millions of kids singing Darbari and Malkons. You can't have them singing Bihus also. So you need people to clap along with them also. You need people to say, hey, I've heard this 25 times from you. I need to hear something else from you now. So I think that has not been made a part of the arts education program. It still remains a very didactic, a very almost ad hoc kind of a situation where in an institution, if a principal feels that arts are important, they introduce them. Otherwise, that particular period is given to other more serious subjects like math, science, et cetera. And then everybody gets together before 26 January and 15 August, learns a song, stands there and sings it while they're hating it and that's it. So that's what our arts education is. I mean, you wanted to say something. Yeah, yeah. I want to add to your point that we are teaching performance and I'll tell you one fact. We record so many songs and we do lyrical translations of every song. 60% of the artists we do lyrical translations don't know the meaning of their own songs. Amazing. It's a big problem. So Durga, you're going to schools now under the foundation. Will you be teaching music appreciation? We want to do music introduction. Appreciation is a little more evolved state. We just want to introduce them to the very basics and just leave it to them to like it or dislike it. But at least for us, the most critical thing will be the quality of teachers and how we, in a very easy manner, introduce it to them and not make it very heavy for them. It has to be at the level that you are playing Antakshari and you love Hindi film songs. Many of them who are from non-Hindi speaking regions actually told me that many times something has to be a fun and frolic and something that you enjoy. So hopefully create that kind of an atmosphere when learning is not a burden. Okay, listen, we'll have to pack up at some time, but so the government will be the government, we'll keep complaining, but one thing is for sure that the music will always be there and since we have two legendary artists on stage, we are not letting them go without hearing a little bit from each one of them. So I'm going to ask Papuan because this is also relevant to our discussion. They cut our time by about 45 minutes. They delayed us by two hours so now we can sit over here and be obdurate. So Papuan was talking about a form of folk music. Let him explain because I didn't even understand. Which one? Sorry, what is this? We're talking about the rhythms and the different kinds of rhythms. So this is a great clapping audience. So make them clap the rhythms with you. Okay, so there is this and Sam, I'm not just going to talk about it, I guess. Like we are talking about some art forms are, some music genres are also kind of dying slowly in India everywhere. So this is amazing stuff we do in Assam. It's actually Borghid, we call it Borghid, which is devotional actually. There's this guy called Shankar Dev who was 600 years now. This is at least 600 year old stuff. And he made these, I think classical happened three, 400 years back, right? The kind of classical music that Khayal is, we have a history of approximately, we can trace it back to about 200, 250 years ago. Even I was reading worldwide classical was the kind of last of the stages when it became really sorted. So this is 600 years back, also classical. And this is from that, I think, Iksharana, you know that stuff anyway, so one God. And so what we do, all of Assam, wherever you go, so the kind of following, whatever believer I am supposed to be, there's no idol, I mean we Hindus, but neo-Vaishnavism, so there's the universe. So all they do is pray and clap in the villages. They're called Naam Ghors, Kirtan Ghors, which is those temples. And basically a gossip session also there, all the women meet there. Okay, and then I can do that. Wow, what a mic stand I have. So the good thing is that normally worldwide, if you see the popular beat is four by four. And I mean worldwide you go rock music, any music that'll be four by four. And I was jumping with someone from Delhi recently, I was doing a seven or a six. And I don't name the guy, but no, why not actually? A friend, a very close friend. I was making a song. Rabi, I mean, how are you, how are you doing this? I'm from Delhi, I know four by four. I'm a rocker. So as I always say, cool guys, I'm just saying, okay, this is seven beat. No, seven beat, do you guys, like even if you're non-musicians, it'll be difficult to do seven and six. That's why four by four is like one, actually. That's why the one is popular in the world. Apart from musicians, people don't do this. But in Assam, when you go, you go everywhere, your taiji, bohaji, maasi, khuri, jathai, mahi, whoever, the ladies in the village, they're clapping like 14 beat, the entire state in Assam. And I realize it's very late, people don't realize it. Since I went away and then I looked at it from like, you know, birds, I'm like, hey, ye to pura ek nation saths, 14 beat pe bazaar hai ka, inko pata hai ki nahi hai. This is Indian music, imagine, which you don't even know about. We still know about Karnati and Hindustani. But we still don't know about this. And this is Indian music. Again, you know, if we don't do this, who does it? It's the whole thing. So 14 beat, how does he change it? It's, the ball doesn't very interesting. Like it's a call we play on. So the ladies are doing, and then everyone clap. One, two, one, two, okay? One, two, one, two. Again, one, two, one, two. See you are still, you are a musician. You also, dekha, it's not simple like that, okay? Okay, one more time, two. One, two, one, two, one, two. And keep going on, okay? I'll do the balls. So, going on, and the melody is so simple. I'll tell you, my song is so simple. That's how the ladies can sing it. I have to read also, I have to take me down too. Carry on. Two, one, two, one, two, one, two. Okay, this is Akhwari, like Ashabari. I think they call it Akhwari. Two, one, two. Okay, so. And it's more too simple. One, two, one, two, one, two. Together, two, one. One, two, one, two. One, two, one, two, one, two, one. Okay, go ahead and sing it. This is my song. One, two, one, two, one. One, two, one, two. One, two, one, two. One, two, one, two, one, two. Come on. And it's more to it, it's like the 14, there's a bar of 32, which is called a ghat. So it starts at the 10 beat and completes 32 and it becomes 14 again. It's just so beautiful, imagine. And we have lost it. I'm the last guy who plays khol, I think, of my generation. I'm a guy from urban. Hey, where is this going to be? Okay, Shobhaji, your work is a bit more difficult. Dying forms of classical music. It takes half an hour. What time is dinner until? So we have to hear something. We have to hear something. You know, it's very funny, but because I sang this song called Apke Savan, very often people say, that Apke Savan is gone after I sang Malcons or something. And so what I do, I said, you know, the original Apke Savan, it was like this. So that's a wrap. All you thirsty people, you can head for the bar. I just want to say that Apke Savan is here. I hope India has good rains, really. We need them. And maybe God will be happy with your voice. Give big hand for her. If you're... Okay. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. I'm going to sing. Okay. Thank you very much, folks. As they say, you've been a lovely audience. You've done a great job. But play again.