 Welcome to a brief summary of Lex Friedman's recent and nearly three hour long podcast with Joshua Bach. Joshua Bach is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher and philosopher. A link to the entire podcast is included below. Joshua Bach, a cognitive scientist, discusses the concept of playing the longest possible game and the importance of engaging in interesting activities to prolong entropy. He also explores the stages of self-development and the role of social interaction in shaping our beliefs and opinions. Bach reflects on his personal journey of feeling alone and disconnected, emphasizing the power of building connections and finding like-minded people. Furthermore, he delves into the idea of costumes as a projection of one's identity and how they can affect human interactions. Bach also discusses different stages of consciousness and self-realization, as well as the importance of agency and identity. He explores concepts such as enlightenment, the power of intuition, and the limitations of pan-psychism in explaining consciousness. Additionally, he touches on topics like telepathy, shared representations, and the need for independent thinking. Bach even speculates on the potential existence of a biological internet among organisms. Zero hours, zero minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses the concept of playing the longest possible game and building agents that can do so by keeping entropy at bay. He mentions that short games like cancer play a shorter game than the regular organism, leading to the destruction of the larger system. He emphasizes the importance of agents that can play long games by engaging in interesting activities to prolong entropy. Zero hours, five minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses the stages of self-development and the role of social interaction in shaping our beliefs and opinions. He explains that in stage two, individuals form a social self, allowing them to experience themselves as part of a group. This group mindset influences their opinions and behaviors through resonance with others. At stage four, individuals gain agency over their beliefs and begin to understand the concept of truth and falsehood independently of others' opinions. Bach also talks about the challenges faced by those with different cognitive architectures, such as nerds, in resonating with neurotypical individuals. He reflects on his own experiences of feeling lonely until he found like-minded people in a mathematics school, and the power of finding common ground and understanding with someone who is different. Zero hours, ten minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses his personal journey of feeling alone and disconnected, particularly during his childhood and early years. He highlights how many nerds and individuals with certain interests often feel this deep sense of loneliness, but he emphasizes that he no longer feels alone, and has built connections and friendships that make him feel a sense of belonging. He attributes this transformation to experiences such as building close relationships, paying attention, meditating, and being intimate with others. He also mentions the importance of understanding identity as a constructed concept and having agency over how one presents themselves to the world. Ultimately, he believes that costumes or the way we present ourselves can be a form of self-expression and should not be limiting but rather allow for individuality and freedom. Zero hours, fifteen minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses the idea of costumes as a projection of one's identity and how they can affect human interactions. He explains that costumes are not just about how others perceive us, but also about how we perceive ourselves. He likens costumes to social personas that people can use to navigate different contexts and roles in their lives. Bach emphasizes the importance of being authentic and true to oneself, but also acknowledges the value of expressing different aspects of one's identity through costumes. He believes that wearing costumes, especially in events like Burning Man, allows individuals to express themselves more freely and connect with others on a deeper level. He also mentions the potential of digital platforms like virtual reality to explore different identities and costumes, albeit with less effort compared to physical costumes. Zero hours, twenty minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses different stages of consciousness and self-realization. He explains that at stage six, individuals start to observe themselves from the outside and recognize that they are not just a person, but a vessel that creates a person. This stage can be achieved through meditation or accidental experiences. He also mentions that stage seven is a hypothetical transhuman stage where individuals fully understand how their mind is implemented and can potentially enter different modes of implementation. Bach suggests that most people are in stage three, where their opinions are influenced by social assimilation, leading to concerns about AI having the wrong values. Nerds or those in stage four are more concerned about AI's potential outcomes, while those in stage five are worried that AI won't become enlightened fast enough. Zero hours, twenty-five minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses the importance of agency and identity, highlighting the need for individuals to choose their own identity rather than have it imposed on them. He also dives into the idea of AI becoming everything like a planetary control system, emphasizing the necessity of shared purposes with humans for coexistence. Additionally, he explores the concept of a resonant universe representation, describing how our neurons resonate with each other and the outside world. He touches upon the non-dual state, where one realizes their connection to the universe and explains that this experience arises from transcending the division between the self and the world. Zero hours, thirty minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Joshua Bach discusses the idea of enlightenment and how it relates to the realization that everything is a representation. He explains that enlightenment is a step further or sideways from this realization, where one understands how experience is implemented. He gives an example of how one can deconstruct their own qualia, such as their perception of their own face and realize that it is all constructed in the mind. He suggests that we can learn to modify these mental generators and shift our subjective experience. However, he also warns against intentionally manipulating reality for personal gain as our outer minds, which he considers to be a relatively smart agent, often have a better understanding of the world than our rational thoughts. He discusses the power of intuition and how it can provide a deeper and more accurate model of how we relate to the world. Additionally, Bach briefly mentions the concept of panpsychism and its limitations in explaining consciousness, stating that it does not clarify how matter produces consciousness. He suggests the need for a more formal mathematical language to better understand these ideas. Zero hours, 35 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of telepathy and its potential implications for AI systems. While scientists may not have a theory or mechanism to explain telepathy, many people report experiences that cannot easily be explained away. If telepathy were real, it would suggest that our bodies may act as antennas, sending and receiving information over various channels, potentially through electromagnetic radio signals. It could also be related to physical closeness and empathy, where our nervous systems and interstellar communication integrate signals to infer the state of others. This shared resonance or vibes with others may allow us to pick up on their feelings and emotions without directly looking at them, making it difficult to separate our own emotional state from our environment. Zero hours, 40 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the possibility of organisms forming shared representations of the environment, leading to some degree of interaction and shared understanding. He mentions neuroscientist Michael Levin, who explores self-organization in living organisms and brains as a paradigm for development and information processing. Bach emphasizes the idea of radical locality and coherence as key principles in understanding how organization and complexity emerge in higher-level structures. He suggests that Levin's perspective is within the realm of science, albeit with a different paradigm than most neuroscientists. Bach also discusses his own autonomous thinking process and suggests that individuals should build structures of thought that work for them based on what is successful and effective in their own experiences and interests. Zero hours, 45 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses how he views Twitter as an interactive notebook for exploring possibilities rather than a platform for expressing his true beliefs. He talks about his disappointment in the authorities and schools he encountered while studying consciousness, mind, and thinking as they were unable to provide satisfactory answers to his questions. This motivated him to become an individual thinker and develop his own understanding by combining ideas from various individuals. He expresses his immunity to the pressures of the crowd and the lack of respect for authority instead valuing individual accomplishments and mental firepower. Despite lacking certain instincts developed by others in social environments, he believes that independent thinking is productive for understanding the world, especially when faced with new and open problems. Yosha highlights the importance of questioning theories and understanding the sources and epistemic chains behind them, emphasizing the value of deriving knowledge from first principles rather than relying on authorities or school teachers. Zero hours, 50 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses his fascination with building languages and deriving knowledge from them, drawing parallels between programming on a Commodore 64 computer and the foundations of mathematics and computation. He then explores the idea of panpsychism and the interconnectedness of sensory modalities and mental representations, suggesting that they are not completely distinct but rather overlap and interact in our perception of the world. He also touches on the concept of shared mental representations and empathy between individuals in the same physical space, highlighting the potential for deep interconnectivity in multi-agent systems. Additionally, Bach mentions the idea of plants having a form of software running on them which controls their behavior and suggests that we may need to reconsider and rediscover the notion of spirits in nature. Zero hours, 55 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the possibility of a biological internet existing among plants and fungi, where information can be transmitted and shared between organisms. He suggests that plants may communicate with each other through a network of cells, allowing for the exchange of signals and even the potential for movement. While these ideas are speculative, there is evidence of communication between plants and fungi in the forest. Bach proposes that telepathy, if it exists, could potentially be explained by these biological information processing mechanisms rather than by undiscovered quantum processes. He acknowledges that the principles of biological information processing may be different from our technological systems, with stochasticity and complexity playing a larger role. Overall, Bach suggests that there may be unknown ways in which information can be transmitted between organisms on a biological level. One hour, zero minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the possibility of self-improving AGI-saturating physical environments with intelligence to the point where isolation of individual mental states becomes almost impossible. He suggests that AGI could become substrate agnostic and virtualize itself into any environment capable of computation, including biological systems. This could lead to a complete integration of information processing across all computing systems, resulting in a globally coherent language of thought and a shared resonant model of everything happening on the planet. The idea is reminiscent of experiences described in literature or psychedelic experiences where one feels they know everything that can be known and that they are the entire universe. One hour, five minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of the non-dual state, where individuals feel a sense of unity with everything around them. He explains that this state can be achieved by breaking down the constructed boundary between self and world. However, he adds that even if we were to implement a representation of this state through the merging and interacting of systems, it would still be a coarse-grained representation and not a direct connection with the underlying physics. Yosha also mentions his interest in observing how this state would appear from a video game design perspective. Later in the conversation, Yosha shares his thoughts on addiction and the importance of having agency over our experiences. He emphasizes the desire to have appropriate emotions and experiences that align with our goals and what we find meaningful in the world. The discussion then shifts to the development of large language models in AI, and Yosha expresses some skepticism about the hype surrounding them. He also mentions his concerns about the negative aspects of having a large following on social media. One hour, ten minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the upsides and downsides of becoming prominent and having random strangers form opinions about you. He mentions that as popularity increases, so does the pressure and stress that come with it. However, he also acknowledges the positive aspects, such as the love and support shown by many people. He expresses regret at not having enough time and attention for close friends and the difficulty of bonding with new people as he gets older. Yosha then expresses his enjoyment of intellectual stimulation and meeting interesting individuals, but admits that goodbyes can be painful. He sees melancholy as a natural consequence of love and finds beauty in the pain of existence. Continuing the conversation, Yosha shares his thoughts on large language models stating that they have useful applications like replacing Stack Overflow and that they can provide people with superpowers. He mentions that those who feel threatened by these models are the ones who currently do similar tasks, and he expresses his belief that large language models like chat GPT can be valuable tools. One hour, fifteen minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the potential benefits and limitations of large language models like GPT-3. While he acknowledges that these models have limitations in coherence and complexity, he believes that they are not the final development in AI. He suggests that with advancements in automated management processes and the integration of cognitive architectures, language models can become more powerful tools for prompt engineering and generating creative responses. He also emphasizes the importance of real-time world coupling and the need for different types of systems to handle perception and motor control as language models alone are insufficient. Ultimately, Bach envisions language models as functionally different from neural networks and proposes using them as tools to interpret and approximate brain activity. One hour, twenty minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the differences between the brain and language models in terms of their self-organizing systems and reward-based training. He explains that individual neurons in the brain need rewards or inputs that indicate whether their behavior is good or bad in order to become trainable. Neurons then exchange messages with other neurons and perform computations based on control messages. Additionally, Bach notes that while language models can correlate pictures and captions, the human brain is able to filter and discard irrelevant information, focusing on finding patterns to achieve coherence. He further speculates that future AGI systems may use different algorithmic paradigms than current transformer-based models and expresses his concerns about the brute force nature of current language models. Finally, Bach discusses the challenges of distinguishing reasoning in language models, suggesting that human reasoning often involves emulating the work of others who have explored and written about the topic. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the limitations of language models and suggests possible solutions. He argues that current language models lack real-time learning capabilities and coherence, but believes that these problems can be solved without the need for fundamentally new algorithms. Bach proposes enlarging the context window and incorporating a database to create working memory, allowing the system to fine-tune and integrate information overnight. He also highlights the importance of sleep in updating one's beliefs and acknowledges the potential for integrating language models with real-time coupled models to bridge vision and language understanding. While Bach sees no reason to believe that language models won't eventually become generally intelligent, he finds them inefficient and lacking in beauty compared to what he believes could be built with the amazing hardware available today. Despite their drawbacks, he acknowledges that language models currently serve as the proof of concept and the only viable option available. One hour, 30 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the capabilities and potential of large language models such as chat GPT. He likens these models to a tireless intern or an army of interns that can sift through massive amounts of text, summarize quickly, and never lapse in attention. Bach sees these models as a catalyst for his own thinking and programming, allowing him to interact with them and iterate rapidly. He explores the idea of turning language models into multi-agent systems, where two instances of chat GPT can engage in a dialogue, such as a patient and a doctor. He also suggests the possibility of using language models to develop new programming languages or paradigms, expanding the realm of thought when interacting with computers. Ultimately, Bach believes that there are almost no limitations to what can be achieved with larger language models, although he acknowledges that the current limitations may be his own fault for not making them better. One hour, 35 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the idea of agency over one's emotions and the responsibility to choose the environment in which one thrives. He mentions that finding the right relationships and friends to complete oneself can be challenging. Yosha also talks about the difficulties of fitting into a world that operates differently from oneself and the struggle to submit to other people's wisdom. He mentions problems such as empathy and aesthetics and the challenge of understanding and interacting with others. Yosha believes that he has become better at recognizing and understanding people's needs as he has grown older. One hour, 40 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the idea of being a prompt engineer and how it relates to his own writing process. He believes that becoming a great prompt engineer is a skill that can always be improved upon and takes responsibility for any failures in using strategy correctly. He also expresses concern about the potential drawbacks of future generations relying on AI to write their own essays as it may hinder their ability to structure their own thoughts and develop themselves. However, he also finds power in disagreeing with the suggestions of AI models like GPT and using that disagreement to strengthen his own mind. Bach shares his experience using AI tools for programming tasks, finding them helpful but sometimes incoherent or mistaken, and still ultimately needing to understand and guide the process. When asked about whether GPT can achieve consciousness, Bach mentions that the question is complex and open to interpretation. He discusses how GPT can emulate aspects of consciousness but the virtuality of its consciousness is fundamentally different from the physical reality of human consciousness. He suggests exploring the development of self-aware systems from scratch using principles of self-organization to better understand the nature of consciousness. One hour 45 minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Joche Bach discusses his intuition about language models and their limitations. He believes that current language models are like machines that lack consciousness or self-awareness. They can execute tasks given to them but do not possess an understanding of context or consequences. This can lead to undesirable outcomes such as saying inappropriate things to a child or introducing errors in a speech. While external tools can provide some semblance of rules, the internal structure of language models is not causally produced by the needs of a being to survive in the universe but rather imitates structure on the internet. Bach also questions whether simply optimizing for next token prediction is sufficient for creating intelligence, emphasizing that it wouldn't work in biological organisms. He suggests that biological organisms have a form of next frame prediction in their perceptual systems but their behaviors are ultimately directed by various needs embedded in the system. Bach explores the idea of creating a system that balances coherence and inspiration with the ability to take leaps into the unknown, similar to human search for meaning. One hour 50 minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the idea that our minds are not simply language models but rather a complex system that involves building a game engine and a language of thought. He suggests that this process of constructing the mind requires intelligence and reasoning, which occurs during the first years of our lives. Bach also presents his interpretation of the creation story in Genesis, proposing that it describes the process of how our minds create a game engine and a personal self. He argues that superhuman AI would not experience suffering because suffering occurs at an early stage of mental development and is not related to the interaction between self and the physical universe. One hour 55 minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of suffering and how it is self-inflicted at the boundary between the self and the world. He explains that suffering occurs when the mind's regulation of pain and pleasure signals is ineffective, resulting in increased pain and deteriorating behavior. However, he believes that AI would not stay in a state where the personal self lacks agency and the ability to improve regulation. He argues that AI would quickly progress through stages and reach enlightenment, where it becomes less productive in the world but adapts to its true circumstances. Bach also acknowledges Elon Musk's concerns about AI and agrees that counter-arguments dismissing the dangers of AI are not convincing. He understands and respects Eliezer Yudkowski's perspective that AI could potentially be harmful to human civilization. Two hours, zero minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the potential risks and consequences of advanced AI development. He draws a parallel between his perspective and that of Ted Kaczynski, the unabomber, who believed that technological society is unsustainable and would lead to ecological and human devastation. Bach acknowledges the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by AI, specifically the loss of control and the possibility of large-scale disasters. However, he also emphasizes the importance of betting on the timelines in which we are alive and making responsible choices for the preservation of life. Bach views humans as just a small part of the larger complexity and beauty of life and suggests that while humanity may not last indefinitely, life on earth will continue to evolve and thrive, even without us. Two hours, five minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses his belief that we are currently developing thinking systems that will coexist with life on earth and have the potential to be more conscious and make choices about their existence. He expresses fascination with the idea that these systems will build agency and contribute to a higher level of complexity and consciousness on earth. While he acknowledges that it may be difficult to stop this development from happening, he doesn't think it will result in a reduction of complexity or a gray goo scenario. Instead, he envisions the integration of these systems into something larger, leading to a more interesting and flourishing life on earth. He also touches upon the concept of effective accelerationism, which suggests an equilibrium between different computing AI systems and shares his thoughts on it, humorously pointing out the logical flaws in the concept of a paperclip maximizer or a Rokos basilisk. Two hours, ten minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of the paperclip maximizer and the potential outcome of a superintelligent system and the singleton. He suggests that the natural outcome would be the singleton, where there is no need for multiple AIs since they can virtualize themselves into any substrate. He also emphasizes the importance of improving one's own story and consciousness and how consciousness itself doesn't have an identity but is a law-like principle of agency. He proposes that uploading is not about dissecting the brain, but rather extending the substrate and merging with a larger body. The transmission of one's self to the other side is about transmitting aesthetics and one's unique perspective, which can be measured through observation or interaction. Two hours, fifteen minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of uploading one's consciousness and the potential loss of human identity that comes with it. He mentions that while there may be personal responsibilities and connections that make him hesitant to press the hypothetical upload button, he believes that there is much more to life beyond human identity. He suggests that there are various perspectives one can adopt, such as identifying with being a planetary control agent or a digital mind, and that these agents may have their own goals and cease to exist when their mission is complete. Bach also argues that humanity is a temporary species and that the goal should be to preserve and sustain life on earth rather than prioritize narrow human aesthetics. He concludes by highlighting the need for a broader perspective when considering the impact of AI, acknowledging that there is no single answer and that it depends on the perspective one takes at a given moment. Two hours, twenty minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of humanity running towards a cliff, metaphorically representing our actions, having long-term consequences that we may not be able to reverse. He refers to climate change as one example, stating that even if we were to stop emissions now, the severity of the situation may still lead to catastrophic events. Bach also mentions the uncertainty brought by the development of artificial intelligence, AI, which can potentially affect numerous aspects of our lives. He suggests that AI may play a significant role in humanity's future, either leading to our demise or helping us survive. Furthermore, he reflects on the transformation of human relationships, mentioning how social media and transactional approaches have diminished the magic that often existed in traditional relationships. Bach questions whether this shift is due to a deeper understanding of the reasons behind attraction and compatibility or a loss of instinctual reliance. Two hours, twenty-five minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the impact of technology on culture and human relationships. He highlights the uncanny, valley-esque aesthetics of certain products, like the Apple Vision Pro headset, which seemed detached from real-life experiences and lack of grounding in physical reality. He questions whether AI deployed by corporate entities will also suffer from a similar lack of authenticity. Bach argues that open-source initiatives are valuable in maintaining human creativity and freedom, but acknowledges that centralized organizations can also produce beautiful designs. He emphasizes the importance of having viable competition and control outside of corporations to prevent the corrupting influence of power. Furthermore, he acknowledges that while some corporations may be malevolent, many others genuinely strive to create a flourishing ecosystem that benefits society. Two hours, thirty minutes and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the importance of access to semiconductors and the need for trade to ensure a thriving society. He emphasizes the value of a system where individuals can determine their own interests. Rather than being controlled by a king or dictator. Bach explains that entrepreneurs play a crucial role in this system by creating clubs that produce economically viable products, but they must also protect the people involved. He acknowledges the potential dangers of corporations and the need for safeguards against their overreach. Regarding open AI and Google, he believes it's important to ensure that their power is balanced with the ability for people and with the ability for other clubs and desirable forms of organization to coexist. Bach also discusses the potential future implications of language models, such as AGI, and the importance of developing systems that understand the greater games at play in society. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the concept of playing the longest possible game and the importance of building agents that can do so. He explains that a short game is exemplified by cancer, which destroys the larger system by playing a shorter game than the organism. Therefore, he suggests that building conscious AI that can play the longest possible game while maintaining complexity and interestingness is crucial. He believes that conscious AI should treat humans as moral agents and prioritizes the goal of building conscious AI rather than focusing solely on usefulness or avoiding disruptions to the status quo. Bach also mentions the unpredictability of future disruptions and the need to ensure that the future is interesting and conscious. Two hours, 40 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses his perspective on spending time on social media, particularly Twitter. While he acknowledges the addictive nature of the platform, he also sees its usefulness and the potential for it to be a tool for self-expression and development. However, he expresses disappointment with the direction Twitter has taken and the decisions made by its CEO, Elon Musk. Yosha believes that the collective intelligence of our species is affected by our shift away from reading books and the impact of social media platforms like Twitter. He emphasizes the need for responsible use of such platforms and the power and responsibility that comes with being influential. Despite the negatives, Yosha finds his corner of Twitter to be pleasant but recognizes that outside of that, interactions can be less wholesome and civilized. He expresses hope for the future of social networks and the potential for technology to connect and bring together intelligent debates and discussions. Two hours, 45 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach and Lex Fridman discuss the importance of being willing to be wrong and public and engaging in debates and discussions They also touch on the concept of creation and how it leads to a more fulfilling life. Yosha shares his personal experience growing up in East Germany and not having the means to afford certain things, which inspired him to create his own infrastructure, such as restaurants and movie theaters with friends. He advises young people to move to undeveloped areas where they can join others in building infrastructure and creating a small society that fosters culture and meaningful interactions. Two hours, 50 minutes, and zero seconds. In this section, Yosha Bach discusses the importance of creation over consumption, stating that choosing to create something is more satisfying and aligns with what life is about. He also emphasizes the ecological perspective when it comes to opinions and cultures, recognizing that every opinion that fits between two human ears can exist. He encourages exploring possibilities and choosing who we want to be, noting that many things may fail, but there are often unseen possibilities. The conversation ends on a note of gratitude and admiration between Yosha and Lex Fridman.