 I'm here to talk to you about using fiction to motivate change. Let me ask you guys a few questions first, see if my equipment works the right way. So we have to agree on a few things, otherwise we'll maybe have a lot of confusion. What do you think fiction is? Stories? Something that's not real? Imaginary? What else? Anything else? That's a pretty good list though. I like the imaginary one, because if you want to change something, you have to be able to imagine it. If you can't imagine it, then how are you going to change? Sorry, I shouldn't stand in front of the projector. Somebody wave at me if I do that again. Alright, these things aren't going to cooperate the way I want to. Nonfiction. Let's talk about that for a moment. What is nonfiction? Have you read any nonfiction recently? Give me an example of nonfiction. And don't just read the slide. I know it says, the answers are back there. I'm letting you cheat too much. Give me something new. Use? Like a... Oh, a use case. Okay. News. Ah, yes. Yes. Maybe fictional news. Yes, there's always questions about that. Right, right. Excuse me? Travel logs. That's cool. Before I go somewhere, it's nice to know what's really happening, not the imaginary part. That's helpful for planning. Experience reports. Okay. Sorry? Somebody help me here. I'm sorry. I don't know what that means. Tweets. Twitter can be fiction. Oh, come on. So it sounds like we understand what the differences are. There's a lot. Nonfiction books are very good at... There's some things where I really want nonfiction. I want it when I'm really curious about facts figures. I want to know, I might be imagining something, and I might want to get a nonfiction book to help me there. It may not be able to help me, but it'll maybe give me some comfort because I may need to talk to a manager or a CEO or some... Maybe I need to convince somebody about something. And if they haven't read the... If they haven't read the fictional stories that support what you want to do, you need to start somewhere. And generally in business, we really want to plan some good information from a nonfiction source. But what they're bad at, how many times have you gone to somebody, you had all the facts and figures figured out, and they still said no. You had all the arguments figured out, and they still said no. It happens. They're not inspired. They don't have an emotional attachment to what it is you're trying to do. Maybe they don't see the whole picture. Maybe the facts and figures you have are for a piece. And they always have something in the back of their mind that's different than what you're trying to address. Now fiction's a different kind of... In order to publish fiction, you have to have a different strategy. It only works if it's enjoyed. You won't read it if you don't enjoy it. So the market for fiction is very tough. If something's successful in the fiction market, people are rewarding the producer of fiction by buying their work. So the number one job is entertainment. And the difference between fiction and nonfiction is that all senses are employed. So you get a book, you can smell the book. No, that's not really what I mean. In the story, the story is creating a picture in your head that you can see, that you can smell, you can feel, you can taste. Don't taste the book. So there's more dynamic happening where with the nonfiction it tends to be more up here. It's trying to help you understand that part. And the last point is people learn when they're having fun. Now I have in my hand a collection of stories from the... Can somebody help me with that pronunciation? Jatakas. Stories from the Jatakas. Let's just see. Who's ever read these in their childhood when they're growing up? Okay, a lot of people have. So those stories are teaching you something. Each story is different. The giant, the dwarf, a story where the dwarf, who wants to be a well-respected archer, can't be respected because his king won't respect somebody so small. So he goes and gets a friend, a giant, teaches him a little bit about archery, and then helps him together succeed. But then later, the giant decides he doesn't need the dwarf, he turns his back on his friend, and then there's a big problem that comes up that the giant can't handle. So that's teaching us about loyalty, about how two people with different skill sets can work together to solve problems. They were killing tigers, they were killing wild buffalo, and then they had an attacking army. And so these are things that will probably stick in your mind better. Also, it's got pictures, by the way. Look at these. It's kind of the tin-tin style of pictures. So this one's more of a comic book style, and it will give you more pictures to put in your head. They can use less words to get the picture in there. So this is an easier thing to read. It's far easier to get people to enjoy and read something short that's in a comic book format. So you, as kids, didn't have to have your parents probably push these on you. Maybe you had a parent who bought one, your first one, and then after a while you just wanted to read more. And then you learned things because you enjoyed it. So fiction is the most powerful force of change. We have all kinds of movements that happen throughout history that have been caused by literature, stories about something that motivate people to change their life, change how they believe about things, change their government. Many things have happened. Even armies, for example, they do scenario planning, and they have to think about something or imagine something that doesn't exist and then start preparing as if it did. I think fiction is the original form of virtual reality. You don't need the goggles and glasses, you just need a good book. I enjoy the goggles and glasses sometimes. It's a different experience, but that's building a picture of a whole world in your mind, which is a different situation than nonfiction. So even when you aren't reading, are your dreams always true? And if they are, you're quite an amazing person. Maybe you need to be a guru in a math somewhere, if that's the case. So your dreams hopefully aren't all true. At least I have some ones I don't want to be true. I wake up scared and think, oh my goodness, it's a dream. I'm so happy. Now, there are some existing examples I wanted to cover about business novels. Now, the idea of putting together nonfiction topics but building a story around it so you can create this experience that puts you in the shoes of someone who's trying to create a change is called a business novel. And there may be earlier ones. Tell me more after the talk about something that's earlier. But the goal is a fairly well-known one and that's where there was a consultant and a writer work together, like the giant in the dwarf to put something that worked out really well. The deadline, power of scrum. That's a brand, that's a pretty new one. It just came out last year, this year, late last year probably. The Phoenix project about continuous delivery and visible ops or DevOps and visible ops. Commitment, that's a comic. That teaches you about Agile. And then I've worked on a few projects myself. Scrum Noir, when I was working for SIQ I got my employers to agree to pay me to make a comic. I was so happy. And then later this year I'm going to publish Agile Noir, a business novel about a project manager who ends up having a project. He has a project whose stakeholders are the mob. He didn't know this. But later he finds out when his deadline starts slipping and people start getting tough with him, that it's funded by the mob. And he's doing a waterfall project and he learns he isn't going to succeed if he keeps trying to do waterfall. How stressful would that be? Trying to do an organizational change when you know you're going to be killed if you don't deliver on time. I just want to look at a couple examples now. This is from the Phoenix project. And I just want to make clear, because if we just talk about fiction I don't think that's giving it the right audience. I just want to enjoy a little bit of fiction so we can feel it. So Bill Palmer here, I say, answering my cell phone on the first ring. I'm late, so I'm driving 10 miles per hour over the speed limit instead of my usual five. I spent the morning at the doctor's office with my three-year-old son trying to keep the other toddlers from coughing on us, constantly being interrupted by my vibrating phone. The problem of the day is intermittent network outages. As director of mid-range technology operations, I'm responsible for the availability and smooth functioning of a relatively small IT group at parts and limited. A four billion per year manufacturing and retail company based in Elkhart Gros. Even in this technological backwater I've chosen to make, that I've chosen to make my turf, I need to track those things closely. Okay, so now we're getting a... Wow, we have a job. We're in a car. We're feeling real life problems. Real life problems that maybe don't come up in the nonfiction world because they don't paint the whole picture, right? So he's just like... Kind of like us. He has his real life stresses. Because of these issues, disrupt the services of my group provides. People will blame the outages on me. Does anybody have that problem? Are you going to get blamed? Are you carrying a pager today? Hi, Bill. This is Laura Beck from Human Resources. She's not the person I usually deal with from HR, but her name and voice sound familiar. Holy crap! I try not to swear out loud when I remember who she is. From the monthly company meetings. She's the vice president of HR. Good morning, Laura, I say with force cheer. What can I do for you? She responds, when will you be in the office? I need to... I'd like to meet you as soon as possible. I hate big requests to meet. I only do that when I'm trying to schedule a time to choose someone out or fire them. All right? So now we're feeling like, okay, this might not turn out well. You might want to flip the page to find out. So this story continues through this journey of this company that's trying to go use visible ops and dev ops to solve some problems. All right? Now, I'd like to show you something that I wrote just for India Agile 2015. And because my accent may not be very easy to understand, I printed out a few. I don't have enough for everyone, but I printed out a few copies. I'd like you to just go ahead and distribute them around. I'll also put it up on the screen. And please try to get at least one towards the back. All right? So this one's called Sadat's Magic Box. Dure had just sat down to go through the morning email when his wife rang him. The contractor's questions about the new house, she said. I fear he will cheat us. Dure assured her that he'd call the contractor back. You must rest and only think of having a healthy baby. Easy to say, she said. Dure said to the manager. Dure said goodbye to his wife and hung up. I have a consultant coming in to help you. Oh, a tester. We're getting a lot of failures during UAT and users complain we don't understand their requirements. No, he's very unique. He's got this box and some kind of efficiency expert. Emotions sifted across his boss's face. Eyebrows lowered, weighed by some thought and eyes squinting to stare at some memory. Dure stood offering his chair. Something's wrong. His boss, returning to normal, I left him with your BA. I'm thankful to get a hand to whip this team into shape. They're so bad at making estimates and you say he's with a concha? Yes, yes. So that's his name. We visited the team's floor on the way up and he got involved with a meeting with your PO. Alarm spread across Dure's face and he scooted his boss back to his office and sprinted for the elevator. This consultant needed to be talked to before things got out of hand. Hunched like travelers over a warm fire, a concha and Sadat leaned close to the speakerphone, straining to hear words which faintly crept forth. A concha, a dozen bangles on her wrist and mixed with charm bracelets from which dangled tiny copper hearts, silver music notes and a gold skateboard. Her eyes, her bright eyes focused on pen to notebook where she dutifully wrote what she understood. Half complete sentences with blanks where missing words should go. Sadat his hands pressed on either side of the speaker, an eagle tattoo peaking from his wrist as his shirt sleeve crept high while he leaned ever closer to the speaker. Sadat punched the mute button. What was said? When a concha shook her head, Sadat straightened in frustration and deactivated mute. Sadat with this conference. There was a silence for a moment. Sorry. Why not have a video conference? Oh, I'm sure all the AV rooms are booked. They always are. And such rooms are expensive so they don't make more. Sadat tipped his head. You have this meeting every sprint? Why, yes. This way a concha knows what to add to the next sprint's backlog. You have a video conference room in advance. Say the next six months. Or just use your mobiles for AV. Silence. Then a buzz. And a zip of electronic noise. The PO's voice broke over the racket. Personal devices for communications against our info security policies. Besides, we don't find video useful. A concha blushed at Sadat's look of distaste toward her notebook. Sadat winked at her apologetically and said, excuse me, said the voice on the phone. You're delivering features helpful to your users. Do you find it inspirational? Silence. So that continued. I'm talking in the sense of building a product exciting to your users with features that satisfy needs. You visit them face to face. You build relationships with the people this team is helping. Can you express their satisfaction? Can you express their joy at solving problems that frustrated them? This feature, Sadat gestured at a concha's notes, whatever it is, may be inspirational, but I can't tell. But I've got four more calls like this today. I've got seven other projects. I'm emailing requirements to a concha a few days ago. She should have read them, and I don't have time to waste with Sadat reached into his bag a concha bloated. What a lovely box. Sadat punched the mute button. If you can get the P.O. excited by this, I'll give it to you. He deactivated the mute. What? Asked the P.O. What's this about a box? A concha pillowed it in her hands. It's brilliant. The lid is carving so deep I can bury my pinky between them. The wood looks ancient. Color was burnt into it. A concha, please, let's get back to task. There are three layers of carving. The outside is of Shiva resting, nearly asleep. Beneath him is carved a bed of cobras. Furthest into the wood, shadowed by Shiva and cobras, are fanged and taloned demons watching and waiting for their opportunity to ruin the world. A concha continued, speaking hundreds of words, trying to express the box's beauty. Minute by minute, she leaned closer to the phone, trying to reach the person on the other side. Sadat lifted the top off the box. Inside was a tiny replica of herself, sitting in this room, writing in a notebook with empty spots in it. The tiny a concha's meeting ends and she's at her desk now, searching e-mail documents while the day turned to dark, trying to fill in the blank pieces like a Sunday crossword puzzle. Tiny a concha gave up and she wrote e-mails back to the PO to discover the meaning and inspiration about the feature. Really a concha, would you stop going on about this box? She slammed the box down. How can you not be moved by its beauty? Silence for a moment. Then a crack turned into a zip and a pop and then, well, sorry, this sounds important to you. I'll set up a video conference with you tomorrow and you can show me. But you must promise that afterwards there will be no arguments. Deal, she said, slapping her hand and bangles against the tabletop. Deray entered as they ended the call. Sadat, he said, there was a mistake. You should have talked with me first. Come. Up one level and at Deray's desk Sadat stood with his bag in hand listening as Deray waved a pen as he spoke, punching it through the air to emphasize his points. I've been with this team a long time and I've had a lot of experience in making them work well together and I'm already aware of the problems. His eyes narrowed as he pierced an imaginary something with his pen. What we need is to get them better at estimating. Deray clapped his hands together. Pen still hanging between two fingers. Can you do that? I'm happy to look into it, said Sadat. Superb, said Deray. Today, the biggest offender is busy on some high priority items. I'll set up a meeting two days from now so you two can talk. Okay? Carry on. Sadat noted the offender's name was Satish. With a conscious help, Sadat found Satish as cubicle. Not wishing to disturb, Sadat watched Satish do nothing but scroll through computer code for an hour. Object classes with tens of thousands of lines scrolled across the screen. Each filled with methods, thousands of lines large. The computer code reflected Satish's glasses as he worked. His eyebrows furrowed, facial lines deepening, and sometimes he bit his lip. Excuse me, said Sadat. Satish jumped. Oh! He said, adjusting his glasses. I didn't know someone was there. Why haven't you written any code? You're a developer, aren't you? Why aren't you developing? Satish smiled and gestured up the screen. You see this mess. I'm to work with this. I'm to work with this garbage, which makes a lot of people happy. I see. So you're more of a reader than a developer. But why did you use the debugger? Satish gestured for Sadat to sit because I'm confirming my understanding. Sadat shook his head as he set the box on Satish's desk. That means what you're reading isn't well written. By the gods, you got that right. Satish glanced at the box. Oh, you brought sweets to eat. Sadat shook his head. Take a look. Satish removed the top. Inside was a machine of shiny brass gears, spinning silvery flywheels and powerful springs. Everything ticking, cooking, and operating beautifully. Amazing, said Satish. The swinging of some mechanisms reflected a spot of sunlight against his cheek. It has organization. Swinging movements in this area, radial over there, it's really well crafted. Sadat gestured at the box's lid. Upon its velvety interior sat a gear. You need to add this. Really? You want me to? Yes, said Sadat gravely. I require you to. Satish furrowed his eyebrow and quickly found a free location among similar gears. Sadat pointed at the lid again and another gear rested there. All right, said Satish, and soon he added a few gears, a flywheel, and some springs. There, said Satish, the ticking was louder and the box hummed on the desk. Sadat clapped his hands. Wonderful, you've done the user's great service, but they further needs. Upon the lid were more gears. These ones larger, more flywheels, and a coil spring. Satish took the spring and looked back at the box, hesitating. Hurry, said Sadat. What a fool. My fingers are too big. These will be the last addition. Next time we'll get a bigger box, you can use your hands, but for now, use these tweezers. With the tweezers, Satish's pace slowed dramatically, but he kept adding, adding more and more until finished. The box rattled across his desk and the silvery, silvery pendulum sparked against brass gears, so his glasses reflected bright flashes. Suddenly, the box slipped off the table. Satish caught it, saving it from smashing to the floor. Sadat shook his head. Remember how the gears used to smoothly spin and tick like a dance? Satish nodded. Smoke floated free from a gear burning through its bearings. A tear slid from Satish's eye perhaps irritated by the smoke. Sadat gestured at the lid, which although was empty a moment ago, now had a tiny gear on it. No, said Satish. Enough is enough. But you must! Satish shook his head. It's too full. The mechanism has become ugly and disorganized. Sadat made a tisking sound. But you're a developer. Just add more functionality. It's too full. You need a bigger box. Sadat brushed his fingers against the box. The people this machine serves to need functionality. But a bigger box? Sadat shook his head. It's made of gold. A bigger one costs much and takes a long time to make. Satish looked sadly at the box. He kept a hand on it so it wouldn't rattle off the desk. It's not a good idea. It could crash. Sadat put an arm over Satish's shoulder and peered into the box. Just one last mechanism. You said that last time. I thought the customer would be satisfied. I'm just like you. I'm doing my job as best I can. Satish closed his eyes and suddenly tension crossed his face. His cheeks pressed against his glasses in anger. Fine, fine, I'll do. But whatever happens, it's not my fault. Satish plucked the gear with tweezers, stared into the box like a hawk searching for a rabbit. Here, said Sadat, the corner above the big coil spring. So that studied the location. Drying so close his nose nearly touched the machineery. I don't think hurry, said Sadat. It won't fit. It was beautiful. And now quickly, said Sadat, a tear creeped down Satish's cheek enlarging the reflection from shiny moving parts. And then he jabbed the tweezer into the mechanism. The gear ground against the corner at each turn. Sparks jump from location to location within the box and everywhere overstressed bearing smoke. Satish flinched as the mechanism screeched and whined like a wounded beast. Sadat clasped his hands. See? You did it. Satish nodded but more tears dropped from his cheek. Dury came to Satish's desk. Sadat, why are you here? Satish is very busy. Come. Don't bother him. Sadat said as he collected this box. Satish was well bothered before I arrived. After a few days, Dury couldn't stand it anymore. Yes. A concha made a big ruckus when the PO met without video. But even worse was Satish's estimates had doubled. Sadat opened his box and showed Dury how nothing would change on his project. And although he was able to make payments on his new house and car, eventually he'd be passed up by another manager with an experimental attitude. Then, Satish's box showed Dury's daughter wanting to attend an American university. I can't afford that on my salary. Then, disappoint your daughter, said Sadat. This is your default future. If you're happy, no one's forcing you to change. Just cut Satish's estimates in half and order a concha to endure uninspiring meetings, however, produce features that inspire customers. But this other manager has nothing to lose. He'd risk anything. He wasn't trained so firmly in how things are already done. Your boss was rather hard on you and captured you on every decision that seemed risky. Now you know only how to please him. Dury seemed to be looking at something far away as he stared at his computer screen. Sadat covered his box. I'll take my leave. Dury was still trying to feel his past and decided how his future should be. How did it go? asked Dury's manager. This Sadat is very unique. Dury's manager looked disappointed as he turned to leave. Hold on, Dury said. Did you know there's technical debt or code base? We need to address it. And both our BA and PO need video phones. I'll get the phones requisitioned and adjust the release plans of Dury's manager. Dury felt his future start to change. That's it. Okay. Thank you for enjoying that virtual reality with me for a moment. Let's see here. Yes. I brought with me some three comics to give out. I give them out to people who have a question or a response or something to say. So I have some copies of let's see here. Scrum Noir. So tell me what you feel now. And I'm even you even got something to get out of it for sure. Well, I was at Solutions IQ in Seattle and one day I was on a consulting gig and afterwards I was telling my boss about what happened. And he said, Lance, write it down in a report but tell it with a narrative. And I said, well, why not just tell it in a short story? So I wrote a short story similar to that and that comic I wrote it as a short story but I found people are a little reluctant to read short stories when they're busy, scrum teams at work at least because the work environment is really push, push, push just like Sadat. So we don't really have time to read much. But I did find if I put it in a comic book format that people would read the same story because it has pictures it draws you in a bit. So a silo to hell is actually the background is from a company I worked at one of my clients in Seattle with their development team. Software wise, I used comic life. Those people those are people. I put people in my comic. I'm a terrible artist so I have to use a tool. These are coworkers at SIQ and so we would organize a photo shoot more like a movie. Another fellow friend of mine, Tavel and I would work on a storyboard together sometimes either from an inspiration from me, sometimes inspiration from him based on what he sees with his clients. So we would create a storyboard we'd send an e-mail, a mass e-mail out to the company saying hey we're going to do a photo shoot on this day, we need these kinds of characters dress weird and crazy and come over here and we'll show you what to do. And so we didn't just shoot photos and then we put it into a comic. Good question. Okay three, one, two, three. Please remember who you are. Yeah. Oops. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. Maybe I'll hand and then here. So yes I don't want to walk from the speaker again. That would be crazy. So let me start from the back of the room a moment because I like to dodge because it's a little bit I'm making something public that maybe people don't want public, right? And so we change the names we change the characters or different sexes and what the real people are. So we really we had to make it a bit fiction, exactly but we wanted to use the non-fiction element to drive the plot. So yeah. And here. So the question is if you're a scrum master of a new team how are you going to motivate the team to keep going? Yeah. Usually I don't have to motivate them but they'll read it. So you can tell me later if you read it. But if you hand somebody a non-fiction book, a lot of these non-fiction books sit on people's desks and even the business novels you know the power scrum is relatively small but it's still a bigger commitment than a 16 page comic or even a nine page comic. Each of those issues are nine pages and what I'm handing to you is called a mega issue which has all three issues combined into one story. So I don't I haven't had any problem with people reading comics but reading anything else is much more difficult. Sorry, I got this guy and then I'll come back to you. I'm going to take an interesting route here so I don't go by the speaker. What's your question? Yeah. So it turns out that comic books like movies like to be done in three acts. And so the first issue is about the problem in general and the first conflict. And the second issue is where the organizations start to try to change but then something still isn't working right. And then the third issue is they succeed somehow and they solve a lot of problems and things work out. So three episodes build up the whole storyline. Does that help? Yeah. So the first scrum team for the three issues does that make sense? So each three issues is a job, right? So I'm with a client. Oh, I can turn that into a story that takes about three issues. And oh, you guys do that. What life does that? Generally something happens. I have to you and you. I don't want him to feel like I'm skipping him. I have a my work does that. I don't want him to feel uncomfortable. Not especially you guys, but people have these things that happen. And those things oh, okay. So this guy and then oh, can I give one to the table? I'm sorry, I'm going to give one to the table behind you. Right back there, please. Oh, no. Okay, yeah, please. I was intending to hand it back. My apologies. So, okay, cool. Did you get your comic? Did I hand it to the wrong person? Oh, my God. What happened here? I handed something here. Oh, that's what this is for. There it is. Sorry. I don't want to break promises. In the PowerPoint version, I have not. I think it would work. These are also Kindle books as well. So you can get these online on Amazon. And they're much lower cost as a Kindle book because printing costs more money. So Kindle versus PowerPoint is a similarity. So I'd say for sure it would work. I was talking to a guy with my most recent client. I was writing in the cab traveling. And another person who works for my client happened to be in the cab. I didn't know him. But he's an auditor. And we were talking about stuff. And then I said something about comics. And I showed him the comics. He goes, whoa, this is great. He says, when I show up as an auditor, they're scared, he says. I think something like this would lighten the mood because he said auditing is supposed to help the project, not scare the project. But everybody comes from the perspective of scared. So he and I, he said he was going to come find me and we were going to work together on a PowerPoint version that he could use for his auditing work. So I think it can be used as a PowerPoint. It's available as a Kindle book, which is practically like that anyhow. Yeah. Now you guys have to earn your comics. I handed a couple out over here. So what was your question? Who's going to keep the comic? That's the person who has to... You're supposed to have fun at work. If you're not having fun at work, it's not your fault, but maybe the work isn't as great as it could be. How about over here? Oh, in specific, the software is called Comic Live. Now I have no more comics. So you guys are giving me questions for free now. I'm going to give you quickly a comic on the Kindle and talk about a couple points. All right. Scrum Noir, Mad Dog, Mary. It teaches you about writing user stories, not writing technical imperative specifications. And let me just flick through. So there's... The consultant meets somebody with a problem. They discuss it for a while. Now the consultant goes in there and we actually talk about how to do user stories in here. So we have back here a poster. It's fuzzy. You can't really see it. It's not meant to be seen. It's meant to convey that there's training going on. He talks about user stories. He talks about the roles of Scrum. And then you can see the product owner kind of doesn't believe that this stuff will work out. That's Mad Dog, Mary. Now, as we go along, we get further and further into details about how to do good user stories. And the first approach, the product owner does what she's used to. She takes her technical specifications exactly as they are and puts them on sticky notes. And so they don't really get that much value, right? They just have technical specifications now on sticky notes. So the team has to deal with that. There's a sprint burn down showing some high-level details. We see some conflict down here and she doesn't want to accept user stories because some of them are missing some points. Okay? What I'm getting at here is I teach a little bit of a lesson in each episode. And the first one is about technical specs versus not technical specs. And then it ends with a look at Ace's notebook to kind of review what maybe we've learned or hopefully we had learned just from the story. We talk about the product owner prioritizes backlog by business value. And each sprint's work is fully tested and potentially shippable. And the characteristics of a good user story. And sometimes the comic will have sometimes you will have footnotes that go back to a website like here. This is related to the invest model so you can even go back by reading the comic book you'll get some information that you can follow up with on the internet. Okay? To answer your question I use a lot of words. I'm not sure. Okay. I made a video out of it. Okay, now this is a good point. So the question is if we make it a video we'll be more effective. And that's the right question to ask is the word effective. It may be more popular but we'll be more effective. And that's a little hard for me to figure out. So in general I'm going to say no. Any time you make it too easy the audience invests less of itself into it. So the comic book is another step of investment. You actually have to read it and spend some time making pictures in your head. You make your pictures in your head. You're collaborating more with the story construction. And then if we go to the business novel this is where we start getting thicker books and you have to invest more of your time. And you're actually going to learn more by doing this because you're going to invest more time and you're going to a comic book is higher level. It's kind of like the difference between opera is very high level and it has to go fast. So the plots are a little less complicated where a novel can be much more holistic. Talk about a lot more problems. And when you finish that book whenever that is 100 pages 150 pages you will feel like okay I've invested over a period of time I learned about this vision I've absorbed it and I need to read it so you will definitely get more out of it. Now the case is same even with a nonfiction book to a point is this stuff up here the brain part will definitely be engaged in learning about scrum or whatever it is you're trying to learn and you'll have some facts and figures but you may miss out on some things. So now if you were to ask me which one's better between those two I think they're solving different problems. So if you want someone to do an organizational change you want them to be okay and you want them to have courage and it's hard to get courage from a nonfiction book I feel because a fiction book you're living with that character's problems that one character's problems for a long time and then when you see him finish it if it's successful fiction and if you finish the book it probably was then you're going to say wow okay I lived I know how that character dealt with these problems I saw an example of how it could work and that will help you get breakthrough things that are trying to stop you. Any go ahead Interactivity So is this like video games or any kind of game I suppose? So the question is if I have a game would that be a great strategy too? Maybe I think a game needs to be more specific I don't know if there's games to go anywhere you can almost turn a movie into a game where people have to make decisions and maybe that's the game I haven't thought about this until you brought it up that maybe the game is a step more investment than the movie but how much more is it between a comic I have no idea so repetitive skills that you have to learn I think games are perfect I learned to spell because on my Commodore 64 I had typing wizard I hated spelling I did terrible in spelling I was going to hold me back grades just because of spelling and finally when I got through I didn't have to deal with spelling anymore it was easy sailing but that game because of it's a repetitive repetitive is so boring I hated it maybe that's why I turned it into a developer I wanted to automate everything but the game allowed me to enjoy repetitiveness excuse me oh okay maybe we have something to talk about later I don't know I loved those when I was a kid I did a lot there's at least a series of 12 or 20 I own most of them I think it increases the interactivity you get to make decisions and you get feedback whether it's good or bad I think it's effective too I think it's more fun and I don't think I choose you on a right it brings the game into the literature where maybe you can go full multimedia video game or something like that so yeah I think it's right in there too we've actually talked about maybe doing some kind of choose your own adventure version of Scrum Noir but I haven't done that project I don't know what time it is I don't know who's the person okay well thank you everyone if you want to connect with me I'm on twitter and various other things but twitter is the name Lancer kind so my name is Lance but I write under Lancer oh come back here there we are and here's who I am so if you want to see what I do on Amazon go on Amazon and look up the name Lancer kind and on twitter if you're interested in learning about agile things software automation, DevOps, those kinds of things I usually whatever I learn something cool I tweeted out on twitter cool alright well thanks everyone