 I imagine it's a little cold up in that tower today. I haven't been up there myself. We only let John climb up there, but I would assume it's pretty cold. Good afternoon, everyone. It's seven minutes after the hour of 1-9-3-2-11-80-1-800-2-2-7-9-5-6-8. My name is Jack Chris, and I'm glad to have you along. If you're like me, you enjoy this weather. If you're not like me, well, you can sit inside and listen to the radio. I'm with Ludwig von Mises Institute. We'll be with us, my good friend and colleague. He'll be coming up at six minutes after the hour of 2. In the first hour, I've been talking for the past couple of weeks about voucher systems. I've told you about a group of concerned citizens, clergy, educators in Louisiana who are putting pressure on Governor Buddy Romer to look at the possibility of a voucher system as a viable alternative. I think, honestly, that this would probably be beneficial in Mississippi, too, but I wanted to see exactly what was going on in Louisiana, and, of course, we made contact with some professors, but weren't able to get them on air for this week, because I did promise to do something this week. But I do have an associate and colleague of my own, gentlemen by the name of Stefan Kinsella, who is associated with the right to learn committee in Louisiana, and Stefan is in the process of drafting some legislation for the group and working with them. Stefan, thanks for coming over. Nice to be here, Jack. Welcome to Jackson, Mississippi. Thank you. Now, you're based out of Baton Rouge. That's right. And here's the biggest thing. I guess when we talk about a voucher system, Stefan, we need to go to the essentials and begin at the beginning, as they say. A lot of people have called me up and they've said, Jack, what is a voucher system? What is it? So I'm going to ask you, with the right to learn committee, what is a voucher system? Well, a voucher system is just one way the government can fund education. The way that the government funds education now is through the public school system. They pay the money directly to the schools, and the children go to the schools, and they obtain the education there. So it's not private, by any means. No, it's not private. Okay. Well, it will involve elements of privatization, but it's still going to be government funded. Mm-hmm. How? I mean, what is the difference, let's say, in basic taxation and a voucher? Okay, well, the main difference is, given the fact that the government is going to fund education, the question is, what is the best way for the government to do that? And we find that the best way for the government to do that is to use some sort of competition mechanism to use the market as much as possible. Right. So if the government wouldn't give the money directly to parents, instead of giving it to the schools first, and the parents would have some incentive to look for good schools, and the schools would have some incentive to perform well in order to attract more students, and therefore to make profit. Well, now, you know, we have, of course, Ray Mabus here, Buddy Roman, Louisiana, Bill Clinton in Arkansas, the triumphant of the South, as we like to call them. These guys are by no means free marketeers. Most people associate the voucher system with conservative movements or libertarian movements, you know, in my case. Roman was not for this initially. What was his original education plan, and how are you all, what kind of success are you having in convincing him of your system? Well, the voucher system is taking off across the country. It's being implemented several states right now. Governor Romert first said that he was against the idea when he was running for governor, and recently, when this right to learn committee was formed, Governor Romert sort of backed off his stand and said that he would support maybe a choice system within the public school system. But we're not really too concerned about that. If we can convince the citizens of the state that it's a good thing and we think we can, then Governor Romert will probably follow their wishes. Well, let's talk about numbers, because I think you and I would agree in modern politics. I mean, I got into a big debate here yesterday about majority rule, and it's obvious you do have to have numbers. Even though I think, and you do as well for reasons we'll get into, that a voucher system is the rational and viable alternative to education, you're still going to have to have a lot of numbers to instigate it or institute it. What kind of numbers do you have in Louisiana? Well, recently some polls have been taken, and it seems like a vast majority, well over 50% of people favor a choice system in schools. The reason seems to be that most people have their children attend public schools, and most people are fairly dissatisfied with the quality of education that they're getting, and most people, if you ask them the simple question, would you like to have some choice as to whether you can determine where you can send your child to school, would you like the state to tell you where you have to send them? Most people would like to have choice. Well, sure, but what about the people, like myself, who don't have children? Now, as it is through the system of taxation, I still have to pay my money, my tax money is taken to promote schools under the voucher system. Would that change? Would it still be the same? Well, now that's an argument against public funding of education at all. Now, that's one that we're not going to win for any time, and members of the right to learn committee have different views on this. But would the voucher system change? The reason that people that don't have children would be for it is because it would actually save them money in the long run, because the voucher system would be much cheaper. The free market can provide education either of better quality for the same amount of money or of the same quality for a lot lower amount of money or somewhere in between. So if we want to have the approximately same level of education or even better education, it's going to take less tax dollars to fund it through the private market system. Okay, speculation. With competition, and this has always been one of my main arguments against the government, it is a monopoly as such. Even though we complain about monopolies in the business community, the government is a monopoly. Certainly education in government is a monopoly. With competition comes the fact that some people, the realistic fact that some people will outperform others, some schools will outperform others, some schools will lose students, lose money, and teachers will be out of work. Now, I can imagine that the NEA and Louisiana and teachers groups are probably, for the most part, against the voucher system, right? That's right. And they're a sensible reason is that they're promoting the interests of the students and they want to keep equality. But the main concern is not equality. The main concern is that people get a good education. I mean, we would rather see poor students get a better education than they're getting now than everyone get a worse education than they're in the current system. To have mediocrity enshrined as it is. Right. Now, when we come back from the break, I want to ask you, I want to go into more about the ins and outs and specifics of the voucher system. But also, I want you to answer the charge that the voucher system is actually a form of discrimination against minorities. Sure. Minority children. 9321180-1800-227-9568. My guest is Stefan Kinsella. He is associated with the Right to Learn Committee in Louisiana promoting the voucher system. I'm Jack Chris. Stay with us. And we are back. 17 minutes after the hour of one. Good afternoon. I'm Jack Chris. 9321180-1800-227-9568. Again, my guest in the studios, Mr. Stefan Kinsella. He is associated with the Right to Learn Committee in Louisiana. And I mean, I'm sure many of you are saying, well, this is Louisiana. Why are we talking about Louisiana? I think that the system of the vouchers, our voucher system would be a viable alternative for Mississippians. Certainly, I think we're going to have to look at our neighboring states to see how they're doing. Now, you mentioned, Stefan, that other states are involved in the voucher system. Offhand, do you know what states are? Yeah, no, Minnesota. And I think there's about five others. I don't know their names right offhand. Was this grassroots organization like the Right to Learn that got it instigated? Right. A lot of times what causes it is the poor education people are receiving just such a strong demand grows for some kind of change in the educational system. Okay. Now, one of the main arguments I hear against the voucher system is that you're going to be propping up an elite school system and that necessarily, even though behind all this talk of choice is talk of racism, unfairness, inequality. Right. I don't see... I really, I think there is such a massive confusion on the part of people who say that. I'd like for you to explain why. Okay. First of all, there's two aspects. A lot of people are concerned about equality and that's what a lot of the criticism of the voucher system comes from. But first of all, people that are well off and rich that go to private schools right now, they're not treated equally in the first place. They're paying double taxes. So under the voucher system, they would be able to get the vouchers also. So that would be a measure of equality. But the fundamental thing is this. The government pays for everyone's education right now in some kind of way except for the very rich. If you give the money directly to the schools, a lot of the money gets wasted on bureaucracy red tapes. Say the state spends $3,000 per student on education. Surely only maybe $2,400 or so gets to the actual school. Now, if you give the money directly to the parents in the form of a voucher check that has to be spent on a qualified public school or qualified private school, then the parent gets the extra money directly. So the parent can spend up to $600, $500 more at least. Therefore, it's not going to lower the level of schooling for anyone. The poor children are going to actually have more money effectively to spend on schools and they're going to be able to have diversity also. They're going to be able to choose a better school. How? Because of this? Because the voucher check can be used at any qualified school. Well, for example, now, I was told I was wrong about this, but I thought I was correct. You take a, let's say a family who is living in a, I'm not going to refer to Jackson or even Baton Rouge, but an area, let's say like Washington, D.C. in a neighborhood that is wrecked with drugs, crime and so on and so forth. And the school, of course, is located right in that district with all the crack dealers and all the assorted hoodlums and lack of education and violence and rape and whatever going on there at the school. Now, as I understood it, given what the voucher system stands for, a parent who lived in that neighborhood with this money could afford to send their child to another school out of that area instead of having to send them to the drug-infested school in their neighborhood. Now, I was told they can already do that. Well, there are some measures of choice. We're talking about poor people. I mean, we're not talking about people who can afford to send their kid out. People who live in these neighborhoods are stuck there. The schools are terrible. I had always assumed that with a voucher system, they could go elsewhere. But I was told, well, no voucher doesn't really make any difference. Okay, well, let me try to put it this way. There's two big virtues of the voucher system. It increases freedom of choice. And in that way, it lets parents send their children to the school they want. But also, it's a more efficient way to do it. And it also increases competition between schools and increases their efficiency and the level of services they provide. Now, some people just want a choice system. In other words, they want to have a choice system within public schools. It doesn't involve a voucher. It just involves letting you apply, you know, fill out some kind of bureaucratic permit to send your child to another school instead of the one by your house. And this might have a very small amount of effects that cause schools to compete, but not very much. The voucher system is radically different, radically better. And speaking of equality, Jack, this will increase the equality of poor people. Right now, the rich and the well-off can afford to send their children to private schools. I went to a private high school myself, and my parents are pretty much upper middle class. Poor people can't do that now. Under the voucher system, they would get a voucher check. They can spend this at any school they want. They can add their money to it if they want. Maybe they can save an extra $500 a year, add it to the voucher check, and go to a very good school. It puts poor people in lower middle class on the equal footing with richer people, and it gives them a sense of dignity. It gives parents an incentive to, you know, go out and shop for schools with their children. They don't feel helpless. Yeah, instead of the way it is right now, they just don't care, and they feel kind of hopeless the way it is. They're caught in a trap. The right to learn committee in Louisiana, besides promoting the voucher system, what are your main criticisms of the school system as it is? I mean, is it just a matter of choice, or are you also critical of the method of teaching in the schools and the actual schools themselves? Now, that's a substantive critique of the schools. It's what they teach and the way they teach it. Yeah, you can go and pick out the bad things that they do, and the terrible methods they've adopted over the years because of doing things like that, you know, the look, say method, and all these ridiculous ways of teaching. Yeah, from my point of view, I would rather send my child to a school that hammered down on the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic, history, geography. But you wouldn't have to. I mean, you wouldn't have to. That's the point. You could send your child to a hippie love, a high-dash berry experimental school. I don't know if that would be qualified, but some would be qualified. Yeah, you'd have some experimental schools that would be qualified. Yeah, since the government would still be qualifying schools as the government does now, I'm sure they would still have some rather conservative and traditional values. They would have to, you know, the school can't be totally experimental. It can't just be an excuse to take your money. But, yeah, you could have, like, an art-oriented high school, an engineering-oriented high school, a general, a Christian high school. And this is another good thing about the voucher system. It was just like privatizing the entire system, and it would remove all the Christian, non-Christian evolution and creationism debate. That is raging. That's right, but it is really unfair, if you think about it, in the way the public school works. It is very unfair to force you to pay taxes if, say, if you're a Jewish and to spend that to subsidize creationist teaching. It's very unfair. On the other hand, it's very unfair to take a fundamentalist Christian's money and force him to support the idea of evolution because he doesn't believe in it. It doesn't matter whether evolution is true or not. It is. But a Christian shouldn't have to support that if he doesn't want to. But now, what about... I'm going to go back to the government itself. I really don't see how you're going to get the support you need or how we can get here in Mississippi. We're feeling with a lottery. I don't know if you're aware of that. I want us to get into that too and see if that's ever been brought up in Louisiana. I don't see how you're going to get local government support for what you're doing, and you're going to have to get it. You're going to have to get it. That's true, and we're still in the infancy stages right now. And right now, we have to work out the plan of what exactly we want to develop. We have to finish the legislation, and then we have to work on the politics of convincing people. But it seems like there's a lot of support for the idea of choice. Okay, but what about compromise with the voucher system? I understand that it's either or a situation. There might be a problem. Well... I mean, you might win a partial victory, and then compromise would set in. And as I understand it, you and some other members of the committee are not going to be compromised on this issue. Well, you know, it depends on what you mean about compromise. From my point of view, and from some people's point of view, we're compromising already by even talking about the concept of public funding of education. Yeah, right. Some people don't believe the government should fund it at all. They ought to let, you know, it's a parent's responsibility to do that. You ought to not have kids if you can't afford to send them to school. Right. But given the fact that the government is going to support education, we're going to draw the line and say, we're only going to work, put a lot of time into this, if we can get a privatized system. Some people want to keep it within the public school system. They don't want the public schools to be faced with competition from private schools. And they also don't want the people that can afford to go to private schools now to be subsidized by taxes like everyone else. I myself will not work for that kind of system. Well, you know, it could even be racism to not support the voucher system. In a way, think about it. I think it is because it perpetuates racism to keep the poor less educated than the people that can afford to go to private schools. Right. Some of the people who are prejudiced can say, well, we don't have to have these type of people or the lower class mixing with us. That's right. All right. That's sort of elitism, Jack. I think that is. 27 minutes after the hour of 1-9-3-2-11-80, 1-800-2-2-7-9-5-6-8, we're discussing the voucher system with Stephan Kinsella with the Right to Learn Committee in Louisiana. And you're on the air. Jack, it just started raining. I'm standing at a phone booth now. That is loyalty. That is loyalty. All right. No, really. I wanted to call because I wanted to congratulate the man on your guest on trying to get involved with it in a grassroots manner and try to get this thing the ball rolling. And, you know, all over the country, we're having a, we're re-looking at education and we've got to come up with ideas. It may be a hybrid of what he's come up with and something else. I don't have enough information about it right now to know the chances of it passing, but just from hearing you talk, it sounds too good to be true. It's got too many common-sense things and the people are going to, the people that want everybody to have the same thing, you know, I can hear them calling discrimination now because a parent can choose to go here or there. Right. Which is the opposite of discrimination. And that's the thing I think is going to really hold it back from the start. Well, call her up. Five states, Arkansas, Iowa, Minnesota and Nebraska and Ohio, they've all adopted choice plans right now. Well, that tickles me pink and I hope it keeps going. And see, what I'm going to do, the reason I had Mr. Cancelo on today is to discuss it. I would like to push for this here in Mississippi as a rational alternative to lottery systems and more government, more taxation, which is what we're faced with in Mississippi. Exactly. Jack, I've got to get out of the rain. It's coming down hard. Hey, we're going to catch you cold. Okay, thank you. I appreciate your call. Thanks a lot. 9-3-2-11-18, you're on the air, hello. Hey. Hey. Look at here. I would like to ask that guy that he's going to see this movie, The Millionaire Boys Club. No, I didn't see all of it. Okay, you know about it. Yeah, I know about it. I guess those guys came to pretty good school. Most of their families were millionaires and you see how they turned out now. It was a movie! Okay, but it was based on real life. Yeah, but, sir, look at this. Okay, look at this. Let me ask you something. Let me ask you something. It's the race of them. Okay, they're separately equal. And the bottom line is, okay, you don't want to fight with the blacks. And they're going to figure out a way. It was just like busing. Okay, so that's... They used to bust with segregation. For the same reason... They started for integration. They started to tear the bus. Calla, let me ask you a question. Calla? Yeah. Do you have any children? Yes, sir. And went through the public school and probably picked with children. But would you rather be able to have choice to send them to the school of your choice? Well... Wouldn't you like to be able to shop around? Yeah, they could have gone to private. That's what we're arguing for. Okay. Wouldn't you rather be able to choose the school they attend instead of being told which school they have to attend? Look, my wife is a school teacher. They got people in our public school that could teach. Hey, I appreciate you calling. I mean, look, for the same reason, you can't look at a movie and say all wealthy people turn out like this. You don't look at criminals from the ghetto and say, well, all ghetto people are criminal and evil. Hopefully, the man will see where we're coming from. Because, again, as I said, I think this is the opposite. We're not sponsoring a billionaire voucher plan anyway. No, no billionaire voucher plan. I'm Jack Chris, my guest, is Stefan Kinsella. He is associated with the right to learn committee in Louisiana promoting the voucher system. How would it work in Mississippi? We'll wait for your comments and questions right after this. Time now for local news. Stay with us. And we are back. 134 at Newstork, 1180 WGNT. Good afternoon. I'm Jack Chris. 932-1180, toll free anywhere in the state. 1-800-227-9568. We're discussing the voucher system for several reasons. One, to look at how a neighboring state, Louisiana, is handling the situation, how they're trying to promote the voucher system. Also, how we could possibly instigate it here as a viable alternative to the lottery system. My guest toward this situation is Mr. Stefan Kinsella. He is associated with the right to learn committee in Louisiana, and he is drafting some legislation for the committee. 932-1180, 1-800-227-9568. Stefan, before we go to the phones, I think it's interesting you've got some statistics about the number of public school teachers who send their kids to private schools. This is interesting. I have some statistics here that give the overall percentages of students in private schools around the country, the number varies from around 14 to 20% in different cities, and in every city, the percentage of public school teachers who send their children to private schools is about twice as high. For example, in Albuquerque, 30% of public school teachers send their children to private schools, whereas only 14% of students are in private schools altogether. I don't think it's because of wealth. I don't think public school teachers are in the top high brackets of the country. That's not the reason they send them there. I think they send them there because they see the difference and maybe they know something we know. They know something we already know. You're on the air with Stefan Kinsella. Hello. Yes, I think it's an excellent topic and a good idea, but I do have a question I'd like to ask about the voucher system. Wouldn't it set up if everyone was on the voucher system that would pretty much give you the minimum standard school? Not necessarily, unless you consider today's school as the minimum standard school. Under the current voucher system, we will just take the same amount of money and try to find a way to transfer that to the voucher check. So, you know, you can purchase at least as good of an education with the same amount of money as the state's purchasing it with. But can't you see, I'll say, you know, a midtown, slum area school district setting up that however much it costs to operate a school, say if each child gets around numbers of $1,000. I think it'd be higher than that, maybe $3,000. Okay, yeah, but I'm just... Okay, $3,000. Okay, but can't you see a school operating if it costs $3,000 to do the students? Can't you see in the fluid suburbs a school setting up that costs $6,000? Oh, sure, sure, that's right. And don't you think that that would cause a terrible discrepancy? I'm not talking race, just, you know, monetary and whatnot. I think the only reason now in Mississippi that private schools are not just flourishing is because they don't get public money. I think if you give them this big boost of money, they will just abound. And I think it will leave part of society behind. Well, no, it won't. Everyone will be part of that system then. Right now, there's like a two-level system. You have the public schools, and then you have one vastly higher level, which is the private schools, and they're very expensive. If you would implement the voucher system, you'd have a smooth continuum from lower cost to higher cost. So why do you say the private schools are vastly higher? I went to public schools, and I'm a doctor, and I had a good education, and I don't have that statement. Where do you say the private schools are vastly? There's a lot up in the Delta. They just set up strictly for segregation. I don't think they're vastly higher to public school education. Well, yeah, some people do get good education in public schools like yourself, but the general tendency is that private schools are much better than public schools, and that's evidence, for example, by the statistics I just read, where mostly public school teachers send their children to private schools at a higher rate than the average population does. What is being taught? A lot of the people coming out of public schools, I mean, I came out of public schools, you did, I think many of us did, but certainly a lot of students are coming out scarred. Oh, yeah, I agree. I think it's a good idea. I mean, I have a five-year-old child. I'm very interested in the school system. But I think it's obvious what's going to happen in these instances. I mean, I think you're going to leave a segment of the population behind. Caller, how are they going to be left behind if they have as much money to spend now or under the voucher system as they do now? Because they won't have as much money to spend as they do now. Yes. Well, if the government spends, say, $3,000 per child on a public school and you can send your child there, and instead they give that check to you, why couldn't the free market supply schools, you know, for the demand of private schools that would develop if everyone had this voucher check they could spend? Because the private, you would have schools which would, you have schools which you would go, the student, granted you would have the lower schools, if the family get the voucher check and they would take the child for the voucher amount, those schools would exist. Let us, we're going to follow up on that caller. We're going to have to move on. I appreciate your position. Oh, okay. criticism. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. 932, did you want to follow up on that? Yeah, I just want to say that in the free market now we have the free market and everything from hamburger franchises to department stores to computer manufacturers. And we have a continuum of service that people purchase. And people aren't left out at all. The poor middle class can go to Kmart now and to the very nice stores that aren't the Dillards and they get much better products than the people in Russia do where everyone's equal. Sure. Sure, let's go back to the phones. You're on the air. Hello. I've got three questions and they'll hang up until I respond. It's save time. But I'm really worried about where all this top level bureaucracy savings is going to come from. If in fact you're going to have to still have accreditation people and still to supervise and look over the whole problem of education and are you going to make a deal with the local taxi companies that they accept vouchers too because some children come from poor families that don't have any means of accreditation so they couldn't get to the school if they're told. I wanted to bring that up. No, that's a good point. And the third thing I think that Mississippi I don't know about Louisiana but we do still have an underlying current of racism and we've won the biggest waste in our school system now. There's a lot of schools outside the Jackson area open just for that reason. In Yazook County you've got two elementary schools less than eight miles apart. One staying open, cafeteria facilities, administration, building utilities, maintenance, you name it. Sir, you know I agree with that. To serve as a hundred and twenty quiet kids. I agree with that. I think though this voucher system would eliminate that but not only that, don't you think as it is we're forced to do certain things and go to certain schools and that is even worse than racism. Well I'm just, I don't see the same because this is what I'm saying. I think administration cost is still going to be there and also the transportation problem. I appreciate your call. Even if you're right, you'll save money because schools will be run more efficiently and they'll be cheaper themselves or they'll be able to supply better education for the same amount of money. But you will save money on the bureaucracy because the entire bureaucracy that's set up now is not just for accreditation. Even if you still need accreditation, you know some way to certify schools you can knock out a lot of the rest of the bureaucracy. Now on your question about transportation which is a very good point. If schools can be run more efficiently say they can be run for less than the voucher amount. Well they can use that extra money to offer free transportation to people. They will be trying to get as many- Competition. Yes, competition. Under competition some schools will probably offer daycare services, free meals and free transportation for the amount of the voucher. That's a great point. Not only that, I think about racism. It's always going to be and always will be. But I think, put it this way, I think maybe I'm strange about this. I think if black people or white people don't want to associate, we shouldn't force them to do so. That's my opinion. Let me make one final comment on racism there. We have to quit looking at education as something that's not just an economic good. It is an economic good like all other goods and it is subject to the laws of supply and demand. Just as now you might have a higher percentage of blacks and poor people that are poor, they might patronize the lower cost stores like Kmart or Wal-Mart higher than Dillard or something like that. But there's no appeal to bust people from Kmart to Dillard. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. Let's take another phone call. You're on the air with Stephen Kinsella. Hello. Yes, Jack. We discussed this point before and I agree with Mr. Kinsella. And as an example, my child goes to a private school and the SATs and ACT tests that they take are just way above what the public school level does and he's right about about $3,000 per child in public schools where for less than half that my child is getting a great deal better education because this school has to compete for my money. That's right. They have to provide a superior product in order to attract me to that school. Sure. And I think that would help. Only the ACT system would provide the same thing. You'd get rid of all the bureaucracy. I read something not long ago. I don't know where. But they said in some school districts, the figures were from the federal government, by the way, but in some school districts in the United States, only 49% of the employees were teachers. Right. And then look at where most of the money is going. Now in a rat hole, almost. And the people who are not teachers are the income part of the school system. Well, I'm trying to push this. I think it would be, as I say, keep saying this, but I agree with that. I think it would be a viable alternative. I think what we're doing now is grabbing a straws with a lottery system here in Mississippi. And I think we should look to our neighbors in Louisiana. Well, that lottery is a pipe dream, anyway. But the voucher system has been used in Europe for years and years and years, and it's working. Sir, I appreciate your call. Thank you, guys. Thanks so much. 16 before the hour of 2, 9, 3, 2, 11, 80. 1-800-227-9568. Total free. If you're on the line, hang on. You'll be next. My guest is Stefan Kinsella. We're discussing the voucher system. How can my guest is Stefan Kinsella with the right to learn committee in Louisiana? We're discussing the voucher system. You're on the air. Yes. First of all, I'd like to comment that I am from Louisiana, and I'm very glad we are headed in this direction. I hope we are. Got another homeboy on. Yeah. My first question is, I haven't been in the state for a while, is Governor... Governor, we're supporting this. He backed off from his anti-toy stand at first. So now he said he would look at some choice within the public school system. Which is positive coming from a bureaucrat's mind. This is true. I think he's following public opinion myself, which is good. My second thing I'd like to say is that I agree with you that the private school education is much better than the public school education, at least in Louisiana. I graduated from Louisiana Public High School and went into a private college and found myself almost totally lost. Right. Well, not lost. I was able to handle it, but I felt unprepared and felt betrayed by the public school students. You had to lag behind a little bit. The private school students? Well, no, I didn't really follow behind them. It's just that I was working, you know, ten times harder than I was in high school and I thought if I had been prepared for that in high school, it would have been much better. Right. I found myself behind where I thought I should be. And I do hope that we'll be headed in this direction. My main question is, if we're able to implement this, would it be better to keep it in the public school system or try to go fully privatized with it? Well, I personally will not work if it's going to be just public school. The large amount of competition will come from private schools. That's what's going to improve the public schools. If you just put competition among public schools, there might be some marginal improvement, but I think one of the dangers of that is it's not going to be too much of an improvement and people are going to blame that upon the privatization idea. There'll be something like a magnet school. No, they would attack a straw man, I think. They would say, this is the voucher system, this is your voucher system. And it's not working too well. So therefore, let's go back to how it works. So I would personally only support a pretty much full-flight system. I'd have to incorporate private and public schools. Okay. So are you thinking that it may go the way of the magnet schools, and that's what would happen to it? I'm not sure what you mean, Collin. A magnet school like, well, I know they have it in Central Louisiana, where one school in the area has all the specialized programs. It's in a predominantly black neighborhood. It doesn't have anybody's zones to it. Now, see, you're thinking the government has set it up that way. Right. Under the voucher system, whichever way the market developed would be, you know, if there's demand for a special school in an area, then it will probably be, it will probably develop. Some educational corporation that's trying to make a profit will develop. They'll see the demand, they'll try to fill it. There surely will be diversity among schools because there is a demand for different specialized types of schools. But it won't be the same as the magnet school. Okay. One other question. Yeah. I'm thinking very seriously about moving to Louisiana and working on teacher certification, which would take me about a year and a half. Right. And if I were to do this, do you feel that if the voucher system comes to pass, do you think that there would be a larger market for teachers in the state? There will be a larger market for good teachers. I can tell you that. Oh, well, I'll agree with that right away. We would certainly think you'd be a good teacher. I think that's right. Yeah. There will be a larger market for good teachers. There will be. Okay. Listen, I appreciate your call. Thank you. Thank you so much. 932-1180-1800-227-9568. If you're on the line, hang on, we've got a break away from the Wall Street Journal Report. I'm Jack Chris, my guest, Steffen Kinsella with the Right to Learn Committee in Louisiana. We're discussing the voucher system. Stay with us. We'll be right back. 9568, discussing the voucher system this afternoon. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening. My guest is Steffen Kinsella, who works with the Right to Learn Committee based in Louisiana. Our purpose in doing the show is to see what our neighbors are doing as far as the voucher system and to see how far we can go with it here in Mississippi. You're on the air. Hello. Yes, I've got a couple comments regarding the voucher system. Sure. The first is that in all likelihood, one of the qualifications in a state like this before school would be able to accept vouchers is that they'd probably be required to have a certain amount of racial diversity to... Right. That's possible. To strike out at the All-Flight Academy. Right. That's true. To try and eliminate them. Furthermore, I think you find a lot of people would keep their children home and school them at home if they could get paid for doing that. Well, let's put it this way. If they're qualified as much as a public or private school, then they ought to be able to do that. What if they're not? I mean, I think even if they're not, they should have that option. That's right. But now that's another issue. Yeah. If they're not qualified and what shouldn't be qualified. Collar, let me ask you. Are you opposed to that idea? No. Or does that bother you? No. Okay. Okay. Even if the parent is not qualified to teach, that wouldn't bother you. No, it wouldn't bother me. Okay. As long as they could demonstrate their child is making educational progress. I wonder who they would have to demonstrate that too, though. Well, so now that's kind of a strike against the concept of government-funded education. But again, we're already assuming the case and it probably will be. So we have to assume as a given the government has to or is going to fund education and they're going to qualify the education that people get. But at least this is a step away from more government controlling to more choice, yeah. Yeah. Now, the idea of racism collars is pretty much, that might be part of the qualification process, but it won't be any more than the segregation or the desegregation of plans and the busing that's going on now. So at least it'll, at most it'll hamper the voucher system idea. And I think when people see how well it works, they'll just, they'll quit trying to hamper it. I appreciate your call. Sure. Thank you. 932-1180-1800-227-9568. Would you see immediate results, though? I mean, let's say you get, you're successful. Romer goes for this in Louisiana. It gets instigated. You know as well as I do. Whenever, look at deregulation as an example. Whenever a plane crashes, the critics rail, this is the fault of deregulation. We need government control. It's the same thing with gun control. You're going to hear this criticism and I'm wondering would the voucher system be able to put up in its first few years? Well, as we see it being implemented in other states, we get to see the increase already. So that's evidence in our favor. Now, the voucher system will have to be implemented in a transitional period. Oh, I don't know, five or so years. It can't just be done overnight. Even the bad teachers now have relied upon the jobs they have now and it's sort of unfair to just force it out of a job immediately. So we'll let the free market work a little gradually. So no, the effects won't be seen immediately because we'll be implementing the voucher system gradually anyway. Let's take another call before we go to the news. You're on the air. Hello. Hello? Hello, yes. I didn't know if I was going to get it or not. Good afternoon. I think the voucher system is a very good idea and a good example rather would be the Jackson Public Schools which has an extremely heavy, top-heavy budget with administrators. Only about 50% of the budget goes to the classroom teacher. That's right. I think that's right. And you're looking at $100 million annually right here in Jackson. Sure. That's amazing. It'd be better to let the parents spend that themselves. So you would... Just think about that. The teachers for a change would be ask what can we do to help instead of discouraging teachers to speak. Teachers in Jackson, for example, are generally afraid to speak out that they won't have a job. That's a very good point. Not only would it give the parents choice, I think the teachers would have certainly a more vocal output or input. That's right. Caller, thank you very much. All right. We appreciate your support. 932-1180-1800-2279-568. You're on the air. Yes. I would like to say something about the private school system. Good. Okay. I have cousins that went to private schools and I went to a public school to start, but eventually my family income increased and I went to a private school. And I never realized that they had so much more to offer. And I think that they should draw a limit and equalize things like that because the public schools, they're lacking a whole, whole lot because when I first attended the private school, I didn't know I was behind. And with hard work and my parents, I gradually caught up. And then I went to one of the top universities here in the state, but I didn't go to public school here in the state. But their public schools is much worse than where I went to public school. Sir, can you hold on for just a minute? Could you? If you don't mind, we've got to go to the headlines and we want to let you finish your comments. I'm Jack Chris. My guest is Stefan Kinsella. He is associated with the Right to Learn Committee in Louisiana. And what we'll do is get in touch with Mr. Rockwell and do the show with him at 2.30. I'd like to keep this subject going for another half hour. I'm Jack Chris. 9-3-2-11-80-1-800-2-2-7-9-5-6-8. Stay tuned for local headlines and CBS News. We'll be back. And we are back seven minutes after the hour of two. Good afternoon. We're back. Thanks for being with us. 9-3-2-11-80-1-800-2-2-7-9-5-6-8. I'm Jack Chris. My guest is Stefan Kinsella, who is associated with and in the process of writing legislation for the Right to Learn Committee, a Pro Voucher ad hoc committee comprised of educators, clergymen and parents and citizens in Louisiana. We're discussing the voucher system per se and also how we might could institute such a system here in Mississippi. Again, Lou Rockwell, president and founder of the Lucid Von Mises Institute, will be with us coming up after the news at the bottom of the hour. You know, Stefan, getting back to the discussion about the voucher system, I have noticed doing the show that many people find a problem with the equation of of education with an economic good. I think many people feel that education, rather they feel that economic goods or course, base, materialistic and to equate education with this is necessarily wrong and yet they turn it over to the government. Have you all run into this type of mindset? There's some of it. I think it's changing with the increased demand for the voucher system idea. I think it results from a general, you know, the way that a lot of intellectuals disparage the free market and call it a gadget producing kind of thing and it's low in earthly material but we have to realize that the goods produced by the free market are not the primary, I mean, they are not only from, they result from our free choices. We have a free political and economic system. The things that result are the things that people choose. I see them as the result of freedom and I see them as only enhancing our lives and the way we live and our freedom. Even as regards to education. Especially as regards to education because it's so important. Any type of system which can make something that people desire and makes their lives better. Anything that can make that more available and more of higher quality is not low by any means. What about tax credits in the voucher system? Well, some people prefer that method. That is another way the government could fund kind of privatized education instead of giving people the voucher check. And by the way, the reason the government doesn't just give people cash to spend on education because they might not spend it on education. It's kind of the same reason you don't give someone a gift certificate to a store but you don't give them the cash. They spend it on the thing you want them to spend it on. Right. But some conservatives and libertarian minded people would rather see privatization funded by tuition tax credits instead of, I think Charles Murray who you interviewed before prefers tax credits. He would also support the voucher system and so would most people but some people think the tax credit idea is better because it only gives a break to people that are making money in the first place so it doesn't subsidize extreme portness and things like that. Now I don't really think the voucher system is a more direct way and it would work better. We touched on this briefly and maybe this is more of a psychological issue than an issue of education but surprisingly enough the biggest teachers union of course the NEA has displayed a lot of hostility Right. toward the voucher system. To your knowledge is there anyone involved in the NEA let's say in Louisiana or nationwide who actually is sympathetic with the voucher system why or why not? No there's not. It reminds me of a song Crossfire one time Mo Billow the head of the Postal Union and he's adamantly against you know letting competition into the delivery of mail and when you ask him why he can only say because you don't need to do it but what's he afraid of? I think the same thing goes for the teachers unions and things like that if they were really interested in the welfare of students they would not be afraid of competition and of letting perpetuating their little state subsidy in there and the cushy state jobs are there granted. What about an overload of one particular school? I mean let's say you've got seven schools in a given area one school all of a sudden shows a little bit well not all of a sudden but it's built a reputation shows much more going for it as far as education and you're going to have an overload of that one school are you not? Well let's put it this way when you have a good that is not subject to the laws of supply for it and choose it then either you're going to have shortages or you're going to have oversupply you're going to have lines like in rush or cues and that's actually what happens in the public school system except the government forcibly moves the lines around and puts you at another place now in the free market system after the system stabilizes and you know things have gotten down to a pretty good working out of the system you would have demand would have cancelled out and will have been met that schools that have much better education will be in much higher demand and by the laws of supply and demand they will be able to charge a higher price for that of course so those will be the better schools that's the way it is now except the lower rung of the ladder is cut out for private schools now most people have to go to public schools but when you allow the voucher system everything is practically privatized and you have a smooth continuous ladder people can get on at the lower rungs of better schools if they want there again though you're going to hear a cries of inequalities if this school raises its price this one school certainly it's going to go over the limit on the voucher and people are not going to have choice well what we're hoping is that well no certainly all schools won't be over the voucher amount schools right now are functioning at the voucher amount at the amount the government serves that they can surely function at that amount even if we have a balance on education you're going to have different types of schools that cater to different levels of people and that offer different prices of education and different types of education like you mentioned the christian schools are special education someone called in and asked about that rehab schools or schools for people who have different needs right 9 3 2 11 80 1 800 2 2 7 9 5 6 8 we're discussing the voucher system with Stefan Kinsella you're on the air hello yeah Jack I like what I'm hearing down there today I'm in and a question the doctor who called in I believe from the delton and got such a great education in the public school system I believe he missed his logic score sir but because I know we're not shooting for equality at every school I think we're looking for better education we've got equality now that's right too much of it everyone's at the lowest common denominator that's right the question in my mind a long time about this voucher system thing is are we not being naive to believe that after receiving money that comes back to us from the government that they are not going to have their hand in dictating exactly what we can teach and we're going to be right back where we started as far as that's a good point caller I don't think we're going to be right back where we started and of course anyway we're hoping to minimize the effect of the government interfering if you give the parents more choice and the legislators and the bureaucrats less choice hopefully we can minimize the damage of government getting their hands into our personal lives let me stop right here caller real quick is your goal to go for a completely privatized system is this just a chip away at the big bureaucratic stone or is that your aim is that the aim of the is to establish about system now different members of the group have different goals someone like to stop there and some wouldn't I personally would like to totally privatize education and get the government completely out that is that's not the view of the right to learn committee and I'm probably the only one on the committee with that view well there'll be room for me on that committee not force it of course but persuade people to accept the logic of the voucher system would you like to get some information so we can try to get something started I'm going to do that and I'm also going to if you listen later we're going to give out numbers of some people who you can contact Louisiana I have taught with them and of course Mr. Cancella and they are willing to work with us in some areas good I'll be listening thank you my friend kind of be shocked to find out that a lot of blacks in this country would really like to go to the system or maybe go past farther than voucher to privatization I'm not shocked at all I'd be pleasantly shocked because I wouldn't be I was doing a lot of reading and there's a trend in this country a lot of blacks are beginning to start up schools on their own sure that's right and a lot of your black government is going up higher and higher that's right and I think that you'll find that you'll get a whole lot of solid support I hope so Colin in the area of privatization in schools let me make this comment not only all the citizens are treated like this I think especially the black community by and especially the Democratic Party have been trying to sell the idea that stick with us we can do what's best for you we can do it the government let us do it more and more people are wising up and understanding white and black and all citizens of the country that is just not going to work it hasn't worked it won't work the only way it can work is for us to make our own decisions right or wrong or indifferent we are the ones responsible okay I just want to fill that out appreciate your call now I sound like a preacher but that's okay I suppose 17 after the hour of 2 9 3 2 11 80 1 800 2 2 7 9 5 I'm Jack Chris my guest again is Stefan Kinsella he is associated with the right to learn committee in Louisiana we're discussing the voucher system you're on the air yeah I was listening to you and I all I feel like is that it's a blatant racism a David Duke plan for education out of Louisiana and we've come too far in this state to once again bring racism up and Mississippi needs all we need to do is get united behind our educational system that's in this state now private versus private needs to stop and this voucher system is kind of a catch-all or just a new word to use for separate but equal and Mississippi's not going to do that and he can make sell it in Louisiana which I doubt he will but in Mississippi the government force you got that right okay as long as you admit it that's fine with me I don't understand though again this equation with racism I don't see how choice choice can be equated it seems to me the opposite Jack well as we pointed out I certainly think it is I think all parents regardless of color religion creed want better education they want to shop it is important for their children to find the best let's point out go to private schools under this system the poor people and the blacks would be better off much better off this system will help them more than any other economic group they will be able to afford private education which is better than public education which they cannot do now they can't do it now now you mentioned something to me during a break about the GI bills if that was a kind of a neo right well this has been going on for years of education for soldiers it worked well this is not a new thing in fact in Louisiana some of the teachers can attend public or private colleges they have their tuition reimbursed and that is a type of voucher system if it is good enough for soldiers and teachers it should be good enough for students I think it is good enough for everyone in my opinion you are on the air hello Jack Jack is your guest Oh, that's the surfers. I am from L.A., sir. Oh, well, okay. That's the connection. Okay. Well, I knew of some connection. L.A., Louisiana, L.A., California, whatever, but, you know, I don't understand how anyone, knowing the situation in Mississippi, could support something like that. I don't really think it could get off the ground anywhere else. No, why? I'm curious, really. Well, given how dismal this state is in education. Well, if it is that, why is it that way? If it is, it's because public education in Mississippi has been underfunded for the years that we've had the lowest teacher salaries. But, sir, let me ask you something. I understand your question, but let me point this out to you. Let's say, do you think the answer is the solution, rather, is as simple as giving a bad teacher more money? What if that teacher is really not doing a good job and we increase his or her pay? Is that going to make the teacher perform any better? No, I'm saying, through teacher evaluation and through higher salaries, you can attract good quality teachers. That is the way you do it. To the extent that we do have poor scores in Mississippi, it's because we have not given the financial incentive there to get good teachers and to keep good teachers. Mississippi is too poor of a state to try to fund two educational systems. And for anybody to think otherwise, it's just plain ridiculous. I'm curious, just on the subject, are you in favor of the lottery as proposed by Governor Mavis? Yes, I am in favor of the lottery. I am in favor of the lottery. I don't know what that has to do with this. I was just curious to see if you were. Let me let Mr. Kinsella answer your points. Collar, all the points you brought up, giving teachers an incentive to perform better and rating the teachers, all this. All this can be performed by the free market a lot more efficiently and a lot better than the government can do. Why would you rather set up a more expensive bureaucratic organization to do all the things that the free market can do? Well, sir, in Mississippi and I believe elsewhere, if people had the ability for us to establish two school systems. Well, there's only one, sir. I know, but I'm saying if we had to under your proposal. No, there would only be one under mine. There's two now. Well, sure, there would be the death knell to public education in Mississippi under your ideal. That's true. It would be the Riling Star of private education. No, it wouldn't. The poor people in Mississippi, and that is the majority of our state, would go to hell in a handbasket under your system. I don't see why, sir. Well, it's a fact that if we cannot have public education in Mississippi and have a bad public education system right now under a voucher system, it would be nonexistent. Well, sir, I tell you what, hopefully we do disagree, but hopefully we can still debate this and have what we say and think account for something. Well, I would think so, but the idea that you have would be bad for Mississippi. I appreciate your call. Thank you. Thanks a lot. 932-1180-1800-227-9568. Let's take one more call. You're on the air. Yeah, Jack. Hey. Two or three fallacies in your guest position. One is, I think he's telling the truth about racism. What this is about is elitism. And let me support my point. He says that everybody has an equal shot. That's not true. Under a private system, all you have to do is supplement that voucher. And after a while, you have the poor in one place and the rich in another. There's no doubt. The private school system all across America, and it's done a lot for America. And I'm not in favor of shutting that down either. But what you do is to separate the elite from the poor because they are able to supplement the voucher. Okay, let me let him answer that. All right. Okay, sir. That's the way it is right now. The poor and the rich are separated vastly. Under the voucher system, you might have some differences in education. But the point is that the poor people would be receiving a better education than they are now. And I'm more concerned about the actual education people receive than their relative education compared to other people. I'd rather see everyone get a lot better education, even if the rich get much better education than the poor keep receiving the poor education they're getting now. I'm not talking about the ultra-rich. They go off to military school. You mean upper-middle class. But in my community, the rich and the poor and the middle go to school at the same place. I happen to believe that this is good for our country rather than a caste system that has proven not to work in many parts of the world. That's a part of my position. And I agree with you. I think you would let blacks go to school with you provided they were among the elite. What do you mean elite? Educationally or financially? Well, they go together. Maybe that says something, though. If you want to find good education, go with the income is high. Listen, I appreciate your call. Wait a minute. I want to do one more. Real quick. Real quick. You're assuming that if you privatize it that there won't be any bureaucracy. If you believe that, you need to take a look at IBM, General Motors, General Electric and all the others. They make a profit, sir. The government doesn't. They make a profit. It's right. You said that there wouldn't be any bureaucracy earlier. There would be less bureaucracy. And the third one, right quick. I've got to move on. I've got to move on. Sorry to do this, too. We've got to go to the news. The music is playing. We're going to give an address when we come back and talk with Lou Rockwell how you can get in touch with some people with the right to learn committee. Stefan, thank you for your time today. Thank you, Jack. And thanks for coming over. I enjoyed it. We appreciate your comments. Hopefully we can get something started here in Mississippi. 1-800-227-9568. Lou Rockwell is next. Stay with us. You know we've got to find... And we are back. Good afternoon. 2-33 at News Talk 1180WJNT. I'm Jack Criss. And for those of you who are interested in what is going on in Louisiana with the voucher system, you can get in touch with me and I'll be glad to give you some phone numbers. I'm trying to establish a working system between the two states to see what we can do to try to propose the voucher system here as an alternative to the lottery system. 932-1180-1800-227-9568. And it's my pleasure to welcome back to the show my guest, Mr. Lou Rockwell, president and founder of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. Lou, good afternoon. Hi, Jack. Great to be with you. We're expecting a little snow and sleet this afternoon. Is it sunny and beautiful up in California? Actually, it's a little bit foggy. You'll be glad to know. Well, maybe everyone's got bad...