 Hey everyone, this is Carlos and the founder and CEO at Product School today I'm here with my buddy Jules Walter who's a product leader at YouTube. Hey Jules. Hey Carlos. Hi everyone It's good to have you on the show You you you were one of the first believers in us when we were just getting started and you did an amazing talk at proud school San Francisco when we were still doing things in person. How are you doing? I'm good. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me It's been great to see your own growth as a product leader and we're going to talk about that in a second But before I just want to learn a bit more about your first PM job. How did you get that? Yeah, it was it was a journey, you know Yeah, so some background about me first is I I'm Haitian. I grew up in Haiti And then from there went to college in the US Got into MIT Which also was a challenge of its own And in particular the story there is that when I was in high school one of my teachers We know when I told I wanted to go to MIT told me hey, you'll never get in You know, nobody like you has ever gotten to these separate schools. You'd have to be a genius, etc And then later I found out When I was admitted to another school that one of my friends who had left Haiti got into MIT And I was like I'm pretty sure this guy's not smarter than me Then I applied to MIT and then you know got admitted there And that's one of the key themes that you'll see with my career over time is that I do think You know, I have a role that I can play in like inspiring others in giving them the confidence, you know So that they can pursue big dreams So that's why I'm sharing that story but back to your question. So after college I went to business school And then the job I did after business was actually a general manager job not not product I was actually based in West Africa, you know running the business for a medical device company And then over time I started hearing more and more about tech especially as I wanted to come back to the US So came back, you know, was the founder of a startup which didn't work out And then as I was starting to a mentor about what I should do next His advice was well First of all, I think you shouldn't be area Location makes a big difference in terms of career acceleration So I found that advice and then the other thing was as I was looking at various career product management became Clearly what I wanted to do because you know computer science background But one but I enjoyed more the business is stuff like, you know And I was really interested in making a change people's lives and that's one of the rules where you have that opportunity But then I started interviewing with companies and they gave me the interview because my pedigree, but it was really hard You know because they're like well, you know to be a PM you have to have been a PM, you know, that's a typical Thing that we hear So what I did there is I ended up joining a very early state startup Through networking and then I joined as a very entry-level PM, you know there where they kind of took a chance on me and then within a month They're like, okay, you're good, you know, and then very quickly got promoted and at some point became head of product for that company over time So that's my story into into product management But more commonly what I see is folks usually switch within their company, which is much easier because you have like domain expertise But I do talk to a lot of folks who were trying to get in and struggle to make that transition Yeah, we see that all the time this classic chicken and egg problem where there's someone with potential They've done some product Maybe they don't have that title on the resume and I recruited assumes that okay Well, then you're not a good candidate and that's just not true So I'm glad to see now that you are also in a position to help that next generation of product leaders So after your startup show the the one that you join as a PM Then I see that you work at slack, right? So how do you make that move? Yeah, so I was at the starter for almost two years, I believe or roughly two years And then I started I Became friends with somebody was like an early designer at slack and he was saying how excited Slack was as a company how exciting it was as a company I got really interested about the mission Which is really to make people's work nice simpler more pleasant more productive and also like just like the stage of the company If you get a chance at like joining a rocket ship like a while, it's about to take off Like I think that's a career accelerator and it's also just a really fun experience. So I I Yeah, so I joined slack. I was the first PM on the growth team So really started that team and then help it scale and was there for roughly four and a half years and Dream my tenure there, you know, the company grew like by 10x in terms of revenue And you know the team that sort of I led had a massive impact At the company so I had a lot of fun there and then more recently About almost a year and a half ago. I joined YouTube to be a product leader there In order to drive a new strategic initiative on the product side So use when you say that you joined that there's lack Product growth team. What is what does growth mean? How is that different than let's say a traditional marketing approach? Yeah, so growth the growth. I'm referring to here is growth within the product function and one way to think about it is You know When you have a product you have pms that try to create new value for users For example a new feature that solves up and on a problem that that isn't solved already And then you also have growth pms who are helping new users Find that value. That's already existing in the product So that was my focus at slack and in terms of the work. It's things like Understanding like how do you change the the new user experience, you know on boarding, you know, the first few days hours or weeks It's finding it's really taking to that user journey over time like you know at some point That's like we had a lot of users that were In the product but not paying for it So it's like what would it take for someone to find so much value that they want to pay for slack You know, how do we change the product? How do we change the experience like when in the life cycle of the user? Should we sort of convey that value? So the I think some of the differences there between a growth pm and a sort of traditional core pm and Obviously, there's a lot of types of pms like platform pms, etc. It's really about Focusing on the marginal user versus the power user So it's not like hey, how do I create this feature for like people already love the product? But it's for the people who don't actually love the product Who've heard about it. We want to give it a shot like why would how do I change that experience that they're like? Okay, yes, I should do be the using slack So that was my focus there I always use slack as a great example of company Docking product led growth mindset So that free plan that got people from a company interested and then organically bubbled up That to a potential decision maker I think that's an a case that's been studied across so many companies and Business schools and and I like what you said about the definition of growth Not just for the top of the final for like new users But growth in terms of the Pretension and the and the engagement of the existing users. I think that's now becoming a more of a mainstream concept So when you think about, you know companies like slack where technically you look from the outside It's it's a chat, right? Some people may say well, it maybe there's only one product 1 p.m. But in reality, there's a much more complex engine behind the scenes So how do you structure the different like product teams to make sure that you are covering the different use cases? Yeah, it's something that companies every company struggles with and actually the answer changes over time too You know where people go from like decentralized to centralized depending on how big you are etc Um, some things I'll say one is it really helps to have a clear mission And then to have a clear strategy that aligns with that mission And then you sort of like go down that way, you know, so for example You know with slack, you know, there's really a strategy I mean without going into like the specifics, you know, like this will focus on you know the The self-serve users and and customers versus the enterprise customers and there's different approaches for each and then you sort of then think about um the different User groups, you know a segment and that's how you you you may be able to sort of break your team down So it's really there's a bit of a top-down approach and then just having Giving everybody their own lane and their their own mission or measure that they contribute to In a way that ladders up to that overall strategy and mission And the rest is really specific. Um, which team? No, Torarian each company will have their own Structure and as you said it's changing. It's it's it's like treating your org chart. I say product Yeah, and you'll see that a lot of these companies they reorg you know every year every year and a half because These things only last so long But what matters is that the strategy remains even though the structure of the team May change over time So now that you are in a in a product leadership position Like what are the the skills that you think that are serving you well now that maybe were less relevant when you were Doing your first pm job yeah, the The nature of the work changes over time in terms of like how much you spend How much each skill is relevant So initially earlier in my career a lot of it was about Solving intellectual problems, you know, so I came in that's like it's the first growth pm I didn't know anything about growth, you know found some mentors started learning the frameworks You know got really good at like, you know having a clear Go like understanding the user setting up hypotheses, you know using the scientific method to test each hypothesis Etc. Uh, and then over time what happens is, you know, you get really good as a icpm You know how to execute then it's like, hey, are you good at taking strategically? You know not just like the next experiment or this quarter's work, but like the next years or the next five years And then you get really good there you become like a senior icpm And then it's you start managing, you know oftentimes And then it's a completely new New game, you know And there it's really about okay Do you understand the people on your team and you know, can you like manage each differently? But the way that they need to be managed Um, and then can you influence people that you're not managing? You know people in different functions are just other pms or engineers or you know the cortex team, but like marketing Um, you know business development, you know, et cetera So that the skill goes from like those quote-unquote hard skills that can be very intellectual to the quote-unquote software skills But that are really about influence, you know communicating um, and it can be a Big jump for a lot of people and those skills actually take oftentimes longer You know to develop and then we each have our strengths right like where we naturally maybe you're really good at the execution But then it takes more effort to step back and think strategically maybe you were like, hey um Very focused at pushing things but not like bringing people along So it's it's been a journey No, and the journey continues, I'm sure and I'm glad that you brought up the point about Sometimes being what makes you a good individual contributor doesn't necessarily Makes you a better manager And trying to learn other skills are it's absolutely critical. So you mentioned mentorship a few times during this interview I want to learn more about that like how did you go about what what was the role of mentorship playing your career? And how did you go about finding those mentors? Yeah, so mentorship is it was like a it was very critical in my career And it's something I wish I had known about earlier um, so I mentioned already an example of somebody a mentor suggested I move here, which was a career excellent for me um, but even like when I think about the slack role And I was able to bring a lot of impact to growth and part of it is I had mentors were really good at growth You know one one of which is Bengali cabba, you know, we used to read to head growth at instagram, you know, you know and and various parts of facebook um, and To your question around how do you find those mentors? My approach is first of all, I I think about what skill I actually want So, you know, I joined second I'm like, I don't know anything about growth and I'm like, we're the best growth people I asked around and I have a short list of people. So I know clearly what my goal is Uh, and then the other thing is once, you know, what you want to Have a relationship with um, it's really about How do I Get advice from them, but with the least effort on their part So with Bengali, I met him at I believe at an event You know and then we exchanged contact and then I sent a quick email like hey I have this quick question that he could have just answered by email Instead of like hey, can you be my mentor or hey, can we spend an hour or half an hour on a call? You know, even though you don't know me and then, you know, and then the other thing beyond just like Those very low effort interactions for them Is about following through, you know, so he gave me some quick advice You know, I went back to work sort of implemented that approach and then, you know, a month later two months later I started seeing results and I reached back out. Hey, remember that advice you give me It's pending out quite well. I appreciate it and they're like, oh, awesome You know, so great to hear if you need more advice, you know, I'm around You know, so it's like that once you say these things it's not rocket science But a lot of people don't think about it that way So it's really about these little things and then over time People start trusting you they see that you're listening, you know, like you're making good use of their time And then they're willing to give you more time And, you know, and and over time what happens is they go from mentors with friends, you know Not being galley. It's really a close friend of mine, you know And I have others, you know, lion strip share was head of products at Pinterest You know and others like that and it all started the same way, you know, it's very like Professional relationship, but You know where I make things very easy for them and over time it becomes a friendship Especially if they see that you're actually giving back to And mentoring others so that they're through you they're having a much bigger impact I like that point about thinking about the mentor as well Why would they spend time with you and how you can keep them in the loop to make to to show them that their impact is Is meaningful and thanks to their advice. You're also making progress And you mentioned now They you are also mentoring others and and I know that you co-founded the black product marriage community, for example So, how are you thinking about now helping the next generation of product leaders? Yeah, it's something I I'm passionate about it's a feel that's unfortunately quite hard to get into and And also not diverse at all You know, and that's why you know, I co-founded black p.m. So that we could have you know more representation in the industry um, so I think about in two ways one is the The things that I do that I'm trying to scale So it's like, you know starting new organizations making sure you get a good team like black p.m. And then thinking about like what are our okrs? You know, how do we make a dent in the industry? So I'm on the board of black p.m. Also on the board of another non-profit called code path And code path which I also co-founded a few years ago is focused more on the software engineering industry And we're helping college students, you know, from underrepresented background become Software engineers because college CS education is broken So we're really feeling that gap And then the other thing beyond that sort of skilled approach like, you know, helping the right organizations Have impact is more like an individual approach, you know Where within black p.m. But also just in general in the industry like, you know, when people reach out, you know, try You know to help Maybe it's a quick email like some guidance, etc. And then as I see people were more Vested invested and you know What I can have impact through I spend more time with them. So it's actually one of the fun parts for me where You know, almost every week, you know, now I'm starting to see people like, oh, you know Like actually yesterday and today two people reach out and they were like, hey, guess what? I just got a job as a p.m. At google or I got a job at this other company And I'm now, you know Figuring out, you know, the next step. I'm so excited. You know, these are life changing things for folks And to the extent I can play a little part in it. Yeah, why not? It's it's addictive and and then I'm so glad to hear that and also that That was you one day back in back in the day, you know, have been Asking for help and now you're you are also providing that help. Ultimately, I think it's also rewarding And when you are doing right now putting yourself out there sharing your story I think it's also very inspiring for a lot of hungry p.m. Who are thinking about how to grow their careers But I want to now go back to your own career because we talk a lot about how to break into product How to grow into a product leadership role and and then what what is what are the options for a product leader In order to continue moving on Yeah, um There there are many options and part of it is The p.m. Function really helps you develop a lot of core skills That can be useful in various contexts, right? Whether it's, you know, leadership communication, you know, product sense execution, etc Um, so I've seen people take many paths. I've seen p.m. Decide. Hey, I want to go and venture because I can help founders, you know, thank you their product Thank you your strategy, etc I've seen people decide. Hey, I want to continue on the product Um Ladder where hey, I want to become a vp or product. Maybe smaller company. Maybe I want to stay big I've seen people You know go on the management track, which is very common, especially as we get more senior But now a lot more companies are creating paths where you can be an ic but senior You know, because I want to not just want to focus on the product You know, so there's a lot of optionality Um in this space, um, obviously a number of p.m. Have become founders, you know, I've seen even I got youtube some of my peers, you know Will have and founder companies, you know, which is great too because then you can invest um, so yeah, so it's a lot of Paths and it's a lot of really core skills that can help That you can use to add value to companies I'm biased, but I agree completely and we actually had on this podcast a former vp of product at youtube She's here who's now a CEO at koda. Yeah, we brought him to a black p.m I brought him to a black p.m event recently and he had a really great advice. Yeah cool, so um As you think about your, you know, what are you curious about learning these days? And how do you make sure that you are also investing in yourself and not just only helping others or build or working on your full-time job? Yeah Um, one of the challenges of our jobs is that we're in a sector and it's an opportunity To we're in a sector that's moving constantly You know, so you can't just like Learn and then think like oh, I'm good, you know, then I stay there, right? Like you have to always be at the edge of of things um, so in terms of where I'm focusing right now One is um, I've become curious about, you know, work 2.0 You know and starting to learn more about, you know, what that means I think a lot of people are still figuring out what the implications are but you know, been talking to folks Will have a perspective, you know reading about it and so on And the other thing is as I continue my journey around, you know, being a better leader I've been reading a lot about, you know, psychology, you know, emotional intelligence You know, um Learning about myself, you know through coaching, you know and these sort of and leadership, you know programs, etc So these are the two areas who work 2.0 and then um learning about, you know Influencing psychology and all these sub skills that I mentioned earlier Yeah, I every time I ask a product person about what they're curious about learning They always come up with a lot of things like and and some of them are really to work Some of them are not Somehow you end up connecting the dots and I'm sure some of the psychology things that you are learning Some of the web 3.0 things that you are learning somehow will make sense at some point in the future Yeah, I mean I couldn't have predicted. I would be where I'm at today, you know, into some industry or even location. So I think keeping a curious mind is definitely Fundamental and foundational to what we're doing here. Um, yeah, you can always predict how they will connect But yes, I do believe that things end up connecting eventually So Jules, if you were to look back at your younger self and try to Give some advice about, you know, how you get how could you could get to where you are? But maybe a little bit faster Yeah, I uh, yeah, it's a great question. Actually, um When I look back at what made the biggest difference for me, it was other people You know, it was really getting help from folks Who are slightly ahead or significantly ahead? um In terms of where I wanted to be and then trusting that advice um, so the biggest thing I I would tell myself and I also tell folks is Think about what you want to accomplish Find somebody or in fact many people who've accomplished a version of it um successfully Uh, and then ask them for advice, you know, now the challenge is A lot of the time the advice we get is not something we even would expect You know and and various people are Not necessarily always really open to the advice, you know, and here's an example A lot of folks, you know, come to me like, hey, I want to be a PM Oh, and I want to go to Harvard Business School Or Stanford Graduate School of Business, et cetera, you know, and and in many cases that is like actually a good thing to do In some cases depending on what you're trying to achieve, you know, business school may or may not be the best route um Or they want to Go to a particular size of company you know, so I think for me it what has helped me and I would have told myself earlier is like find the people who've done it And then, you know, ask for advice be open to advice that may not Be what you would expect You know, keep your curious mind um Yeah, and then surround yourself You know great people That's what actually has made the biggest impact for me That resonates with me a lot. Um, I'm also an immigrant and had to call email a lot of people and And it's kind of a numbers game But I was able to find a few folks that trusted me And I also had to trust them because some of their advice were counterintuitive to what I thought, right? And there's no substitution to putting the work, but I think that having At least a perspective from someone who's not biased And has had as you said a part of the success that you're trying to achieve Is a good data point Yeah, totally. And by the way, of course, ultimately you have to make your own decision because people can give you sort of like the They are point of view they can give you factors to think about But what you want is different from what they want, you know, your values or preferences So you have to make the call But what I really meant is more like listen and really try to understand that perspective Even if it's very different Well, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure again to to learn from you. Yeah, thanks so much Carlos, um, it's always great to to be chatting with you and thank you everyone Cheers