 So I'm going to dive into that hard question about how do we get to a complete library of everything? Not just the public domain, but the 20th century materials which are sort of in kind of limbo land and then also the newest Books the big thing that's really confronting us in libraries. I'd say it's really do we buy or do we rent is that? There's a question that it our e-books really fundamentally different from books And as digitization has gone through the library field we've built up basically these large mainframe companies to go and Bring together and license materials out whether it's Lexis nexus and Westlaw was one of the first in the whole law area The journal publishing area ended up in just a couple companies hands and then J store as a nonprofit That was also still a centralized source So is this the future where basically things are going to be massively centralized or we're going to have something more analogous To what we did in the print age In this in this digital age There are some real advantages to going with a more distributed by versus rent Environment and I'm going to suggest how this is being done by now a thousand libraries that the internet archives working with What do we want at the end of the day? What we want is lots of winners We want lots of publishers lots of booksellers looks lots of booksellers many many libraries Including really weird quirky libraries that you wouldn't necessarily go and have oh, I Okay, I guess quirky isn't something you're supposed to say before somebody so tomorrow. There's a smut sale From the sex and culture dot org library So there are libraries that have collections that are not overlapping with your library And we want this going going forward actually I'm really looking forward to this So We want a lot many authors that actually can get paid and we want everyone a reader That's what we want and a lot of I use this as my litmus test against things like the Google books Settlement or whatever to go and figure out are we getting there? Are we going to end up with central points of control? Well, we want also I would suggest is a 10 million book library That's sort of a Yale a Princeton or a Boston public library a world-class library is 10 million books So we sort of take that as You know a goal a nice big round number a couple million of those are public domain Seven million out of print and one million in print roughly in terms of how it how it all breaks down And I'd say we're about 20% of the way there We basically have the public domain online which is actually pretty neat a lot of people have worked very very hard across a Lot of libraries to go and put the public domain up with no restrictions and make it available out on the internet So I'd like to just say thank you to everybody that's put two million books online Now we have some other things to do. There's the out of print in the imprint world What I'm gonna suggest and I answer this hit it from a few different ways is that we buy all the ebooks We can outright buy it as in the sense that we used to buy physical books buy hold lend out So that if you buy five copies, you can have five Ebooks circulating at any particular time we can preserve them. We can reorganize them We can reformat them to sort of make sure that they're they're staying in people's hands after the publishers have finished their commercial phase of it Digitize older books into ebook formats lend ebooks I know it sort of sounds odd to lend ebooks because it is sort of something that is Short-changing to what the the digital promise was as they could have infinite numbers of copies But you can but there's some problems to that and I'm not sure we can quite get to that step yet And maybe never will so lend buying and lending is a way we can go and distribute not through apps and not through Dedicated hardware devices, but through open systems like browsers so we have we can invest in these things to get them to a maximum number of people in open ways, so basically we want to serve Ebooks in many ways someone at the same way we did physical books, but in many ways It's actually easier sort of like our catalogs a book is about a megabyte or 10 megabytes if it's a scanned Scan PDF. I actually have in my hand. Actually I have in my hand 150,000 scanned books There's a hundred and fifty thousand and it costs about 200 bucks and so you know shopping cart at best buy You could go and buy the seven hard drives that it would take to go and do and have a million books So libraries that can run a catalog can run an e-book System that does lending So that's pretty neat. So that was a real sort of eye-opener. I kind of look at this like wow We don't really need mainframe style organizations to be able to be Book server systems. Okay So what I'm saying buying and lending and scanning and lending of e-books So what does this look like? Well, you end up with nice books that are on screens. They're starting to be on on cool devices And even cooler devices and lots and lots of devices So the idea of going in and thinking that you're done once by going in scanning once is it's never done You have to reform after all these different things including the thing on the lower right Which is a talking thing for the blind and dyslexic it talks a little that like this But we now have more books for the blind and dyslexic Then they've ever had by about a factor of ten just because we've gone and reformatted all of the books that were done in the open Into this into that format Unlocked it up using the Library of Congress keys so that we could do all the way thing things through Harry Potter How do you get there scanning centers? Please visit the one next door And there are now these things all over the world We're scanning things like Balinese palm leaves. I think the first people that will have their whole language online Everything published in their language are going to be the Balinese. I think it's kind of cool. No, it's not the English It's not the it's not the Icelandic. Nope. Nope. Nope Balinese. Anyway, then there's these beautiful Things so scanning is happening at scale We scan about a thousand books a day Books so older books as well as newer books It costs about ten cents a page to digitize so 300 page book is about $30 book That's about what it costs to either buy a book for a library or it's about as much as it costs to build a physical library to Store a book so if you're going to spend that kind of money might as well just Digitize it and after you've done digitizing, please don't throw them away Um and you know, there's sort of the butchering of books, which I just find really So we do non-destructive and we really want to hold on to these things long term So we've gotten better at doing long-term storage or very dense storage So you don't have to DX and DX session if you're going to DX session Please DX session to us and we'll put it away if we haven't if we don't have any copies of it And we're now up to around 450,000 books And we'd like to get to 10 million on the order of 10 million physical books And this will be just another type of repository for long-term books. Okay, so what are we talking about now? We've got now three million books by working with I think these books have come from about six or seven hundred libraries Through funding from lots of different folks. We have about 350,000 modern books These are sort of post 1923 books that are available to the blind and dyslexic That really got kicked off with stimulus money and some foundation fund funds and we have 200,000 in a modern lending library. I'm going to spend most of that the time on sort of how does that work? So then there's eight million books. I'd say to go So open library.org is a website done by the Internet Archive Oh with gracious funding from California State and a bunch of other places And we get about 200,000 Users a day and it's open and editable. It's the idea is one web page for every book ever published It's kind of an open catalog a Wikipedia of books if you will And through this we have a lending system that you can do There are now a thousand libraries that are part of our e-lending system Where libraries have signed up to contribute in recent books to be digitized and lent under their names It's the idea. This is a group effort to go and take contributions from a lot of libraries all walking together saying we can lend books So we now have a thousand libraries participating. Let's take the Boston Public Library So if you're in the Boston Public Library and go to To open library, I'm going to try doing a live demo. Should I sport death? Sure. Yeah. All right None of this canned stuff. All right If you go to open library.org And if you're in California because actually all of the state of California is part of this program because the state librarians signed up and Contributed recent books to be added. There are 200,000 books that are 200,000 books that are available To be borrowed. These are these are modern recent books I have a couple of my favorites if you wanted to go for HTML 5 for web designers Here's this. So much for live. You missed all of this. Oh, well, there was a great demo you missed So much for live, right? Okay. How's that? Yes. Any better? Okay all right, so I We want HTML 5 for web designers. This is a book that we've bought And but it's already checked out by somebody else So I can put it on my list to go and say you know remind myself to go back It doesn't remind you yet, but you know features all coming But the idea is you can borrow this book, but this is this book is checked out. Why is what does that mean to be checked out? Well, somebody else has it and they haven't returned it or two weeks haven't gone by two weeks happened Then it kind of evaporates from their point of view and they they don't have it anymore So let's go for even less popular book the Army flower ancestors in their descendants. Well, thanks to the Boston The Boston Public Library, which you can see here It's that they took this from their shelves digitized it. It's a book from 1994 added it to this collection and took the physical book and sort of took it out of circulation So now the access version is the one that's available on the net And I can go and say okay. I want to borrow this book You can borrow a PDF using this sort of overdrive technology the adobe digital editions It's sort of a crypto thing that makes it so you can read it on a plane, but it's kind of hard to use and Also, we've also imitated what the publishers use for their in print works with the Google e-book store when they put In print books on the web. We then found that the publishers were now up for having books on the web Not just in an in crypto package And so we emulated that and we said we want to borrow it and presto. We've now borrowed this book. Hooray Okay, so and it says, you know, it's been digitized With funding from the Boston Public Library and you can move through this book and read it and see it in different ways and The like so this is we've just borrowed this book And I'm going to do to flee return it So then somebody else can go and check this out I actually am kind of psyched because my grandfather's book The positive the power of positive living a self-help book from the 1950s Really important to me and my kids Was checked out by somebody else so I'm kind of psyched about that so I was going to demonstrate So so the idea here is There's 200,000 books that are being all lent out and it's all working. So Let me go back to The library lending model so who's in who's who's working on this so the state librarians association This is the state librarians of the 51 states in the United States have signed an MOU with the Internet Archive Endorsing this and five of the states have gone and contributed books to the Internet Archive to be scanned and lent out under their name and we've turned on their whole state so then then those are Those thousand libraries and also there's libraries in six countries that have gone and signed up So either the universities of the University of Toronto University of Alberta What ones in Europe and Asia have signed up such that They're part of this pool and we're showing that it's working. This has been going on for now two years How to sign up? Well, you're right to Robert at archive.org. You contribute at least one modern book All the public domain books that you have free them So the idea is at least let's not go backwards and lock up the public domain Most people don't have that many public domain scan books But sort of one of the steps towards doing this Can say what your IP addresses are or the geographic region and contact info? There's no, you know signatures or anything and two hundred thousand books Then are turned on for all of those users and so this is a system that's working And we're doing basically for the 20th century We're buying books and lending them and we're scanning 20th century books and lending them and we're now up to 200,000 and I think that's going along pretty well The next step the next million books. So we're now at sort of 200,000 I'd say what our real challenge is is to do the next million books I would suggest we do it slightly differently instead of waiting for the next recession and So the next stimulus program comes around so we can go and do a lot of scanning Let's go and pull money from a bunch of libraries to go and Select and build the collection and get the ending digital files and pass the files back out to the contributing libraries So if we had a set of libraries that came together to build this collection Then we end up with these digital files being held in these different libraries collections to be used for as much as Currently is allowed so the blind and dyslexic certainly and different people will have different ideas is how far can we go? With these digital files, we're all law abiding but the but exactly what law abiding means in a gray zone is sometimes There's some experiments done and the idea of having a centralized point of control so that one person goes and says What it is that should be done is just too fragile a system So what we really want is many many libraries So if that were to happen with that next million books and of course, you know what the next answer would be Let's do another million books and I'd say by the time we get to ten ten million books Then we've got kind of a good collection of purchased books scanned 20th century materials and the public domain done so Carved carved over the door of the Carnegie library in Pittsburgh one of my favorite phrases free to the people Thank you very much. Thank you I'm sure this will happen. My library has Brewster has some of our library books. We love it We got it's a nice way to get rid of the stuff you don't want anymore and not do something bad with it Siri is the chair co-chair of the ALA committee working committee on Digital ALA digital content that committee came out of a committee called equa a lovely name Which is the equal access to electronic resources that was a presidential task force for ALA last year That's more than you wanted to know or needed to know She's going to tell us what ALA has been doing this year on the e-book front And where are they are going as they move on to this next year? So first I have to tell you why I agreed to coach at this committee because anyone who knows me was really surprised And it's perfect that I'm making this confession in the church I'm doing it as complete penance for the fact that when I was at the Cleveland public library And I was the deputy director. I thought signed the first public library contract with overdrive using the model that they currently provide To libraries so I'm co-chairing this committee as penance But I want to tell you that we should When we signed that contract about 12 years ago Nobody cared customers didn't care publishers didn't care and quite frankly the library community didn't care because there was not the matching Consumer technology that has made it so popular. Nobody could have foreseen The impact of the Kindle and quite frankly mobile technologies and what a difference that would make so I'm working hard on this committee The committee is formed around a number of different issues But I can tell you that the number one issue is e-books in the big six publishers and as a public library director of a large public library even though I'm very excited about the opportunity to have access to all kinds of digital content into a lot of things I heard today those the big six and the fact that we do not have access for our libraries and in turn access For consumers that people are being denied the opportunity As one of my colleagues said here today, and hopefully that will come out in the questions Is really a big concern for the American Library Association? So American Library Association President Molly Raphael Keith Michael Fields who's the executive director of ALA and Maureen Solomon who's the incoming president of ALA have been very active in meeting with big six publishers and they've had a very open dialogue and communication one of the things that has become Increasingly clear is that the publishers do not understand the library market even though they've been selling to us in a variety of Formats through our entire history and that libraries don't really understand the publishing market that well And that there are many pressures right now that are really You know What publishers are concerned about obviously pressure from Amazon and pressure from Apple as to what publishing will be in the future And I think that's one of the big questions I was you're reading increasingly and every day about other models that are coming to life I'm the most recent is the partnership between the Kansas State Library and Bilberry, but again These opportunities are not providing access to the new content from the big six publishers so At least at the recent ALA midwinter There was also a lot of conversation with distributors or aggregators as they're often called like overdrive Baker and Taylor Ingram and 3m and we see that more and more of the Distributors that have been selling to public libraries have been Aggregating content from publishers will be getting into this business It doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to open the door with publishers But it will probably bring more pressure on the publishers as well as Increasing access to data overdrive is in a kind of a beta test of some data release with five Public libraries, I believe right now Baker and Taylor is also looking at a way to provide more data which should help in the future. I Think one of the most recent tactics that ALA is going to begin rallying around is Relationships with authors we feel that there is a historic and a traditional relationship with libraries and that authors Do not understand what is going on in the e-book market We are going to be working with a number of different author or Organizations like the pen Association which has stood behind free access and free speech throughout its entire history so we're hoping that there'll be some kind of leveraging of ALA initiatives around authors in the near future and Then of course, we're very interested in what is happening here And what is happening with the digital public library of America and how that can be leveraged in the future? I think at this point I'll let my favorite West Coast director And Hopefully you'll have provocative questions We're hoping this will be a very interactive session and that you all will contribute and ask questions and tell us what you think About these issues because they're they're on the surface right now They may not last forever hopefully and we really would like to hear some conversation from the group Thank you. Well, this is really kind of pushing the envelope for me because it forced me to really sort of dig into and delve into not only our strategy at San Francisco Public in terms of collection management and collection development But also what the landscape is on sort of a macro level But I always use the opportunity when I'm talking about collection development and library strategies to talk about how important it is Right now to have every library Initiate or have a digital initiative strategy everything begins with that so What I'm referring to and you'll understand the connection that I'll make is that we need to understand how Collection management for whether it's ebooks or the archival environment of our wonderful collections How that plays in in terms of prioritization within your library? It also talks about how it ties into your overall strategic priorities within your organization And then how do you build capacity? How do you determine who does what within your organization to make sure that you have impact in the users in the community you're serving? And then we we seek partnerships because at the end of the day It's all about leveraging the limited resources that we have in terms of not only purchasing power But the themes that we've heard throughout the afternoon and this morning was all about What do we do to partner and how do we expand our resources? So how does that tie into ebooks? Well? There's a disconnect from my standpoint in terms of what's happening with the amazing explosion in Not only e-readers, but e-reader devices Some of you may have read the article that talked I think it was Pew it was a Pew study that talked about within three months the number of e-readers Devices and the American the percentage of Americans that had it went from 13 percent to 29 percent in about three months Think about that. That is amazing. So the disconnect here is that we have the growing demand and awareness of this market but the disconnect between Availability and access and those are two really serious considerations Certainly for the public library arena So in terms of what's happening just in our corner of the world We are putting more and more resources into the collection development strategy We used to spend maybe two percent of our entire materials budget Next year we're looking at eight percent, which is significant to keep up with the growing demand There's a public libraries article that talks about other libraries. It's gonna Grow from about two percent of your entire materials budget to about four percent doesn't seem like a lot But the issue is that how do we do that within the framework that we have of our of our limited Resources and how do we meet that demand with the growing public the other disconnect is that while most Americans right now look at purchasing of e materials e books There's a digital divide issue What happens to the the vast numbers of folks that? Turn to the public library. In fact to access this digital commercial Materials if it's not available and I really commend the fact that you know there there's a push to make sure that publishers do see the public library as a Player in access of this critical content because if not we're gonna have the sort of the commercial side Literally dictate information policy and that's not a good thing. That's not Democratic and and I use those concepts actually and and I give credit to two individuals that are in the audience About several several months ago actually in March the Los Angeles Public Library under the then leadership of Martin Gomez Hosted the National Public Library of America dialogue that was again a lot of the players that are in the DP LA We're involved in that conversation and while there was a very very good conversation during the course of two days to talk about The archival connections and how we're gonna bridge all the meta metadata What wasn't talked about a lot was this whole entire commercialization of the in copyright commercial Material that should be available. So there is a white paper. That's out there that I think fully Explains that issue and so with their permission and it's Martin Gomez and Pat Lasinski there If you could raise your hands, you can have conversations during a break with these individuals because On the back row and back here Because I really do think that it raised the issue of how important this Public policy discussion is in terms of those conversations with publishers to make sure that we're not denied access in that entire area the message board for The conversation about this. I'm gonna call that out. So you might want to write this down is Ndpl.lapl.org so Use that to your advantage and I think the the conversation is just beginning So the other piece of the disconnect is the facility of use and by that I mean the interface that our users Need they they go to the Amazons Because what we provide doesn't work. I struggle believe me and I and I'm surrounded by IT folks on how to get that e-reader on my iPad Whether it's generational or whether it's not as intuitive the issue is That there's a huge literal disconnect in terms of that facility of use So there's another issue there that we have the growing demand The markets out there, but so many folks are not Able to use that That facility our librarians our library staff are now kind of the pioneers in having all these Call them what you will petting zoos in terms of having the public come to us to train them on how to use of the various Tools that are out there But it is a serious concern and in many ways a kind of a new frontier for the public library arena So how does it all tie into? DPLA I think we've heard very clearly that the initial focus this year will be on the the notion of the public domain materials but that DPLA could play a role in the future in terms of those conversations with publishers raising that That issue of the public policy that I alluded to and certainly Being the convener of how important this in copyright those collections are We heard earlier this morning and it resonated with me the whole resource sharing value That we can bring and and I think there's a lot of good work. That's beginning out there certainly the role of consortia is important in how they leverage the dollars to purchase ebooks and e-media That collaboration value is going to be very very important as we push this envelope Just in talking to colleagues Dwight in Georgetown County a small rural area Was able to leverage dollars by working with a consortia to purchase a preloaded Kindles so that the public can check them out. They're ahead of us in that game in San Francisco We're not doing that yet the conversations and what Califa is doing which is a huge consortia in Northern California to do what Douglas County is doing in terms of being able to Again buy digital content and check it out directly. I think is to be piloted more and more I'm a willing player in that and I encourage all of us to work to Leverage dollars so that we can have more purchasing power in the marketplace So basically, I think I'll just leave it at that but but say that there aren't Certainly clear answers now, but it does raise public policy issues and access issues that I think we need to be in the forefront Sarah wants to say something and then I'm going to open this up to anybody who wants to ask Brewster questions about Books Pat and Martina if you want to say something I think people might like to hear as a group here something about the white paper and anything else you want to say on this topic This is your chance So I just wanted to refer back to the Pew study that was just released because as we look at that and we Understand it will feed the digital divide. It is also going to feed a literacy divide Based on economics because people who are reading with e-readers are once again reading more And if our you know poorest less literate Population does not have access to e-content and perhaps And and we know from experience at Cuyahoga County Public Library That if we create a way to download directly to a smartphone that we are able to reach People who are in the lowest economic groups because they do have smartphones And so again, we have to look at that piece of the literacy divide that will become more and more Significant I want to mention that there will be a program at ALA on Sunday about the Pew study will be discussed And also the digital content working group will have a program on Sunday at ALA and also its meetings which are open to the public. Thank you So now I would open this up for any questions Pat Lusinski Columbus Metropolitan Library just want to add a little bit to what Louise mentioned First off, I want to thank Brewster and DPLA and others because really you have given us a context On which to talk about this and you're way ahead of where public libraries should have been and we wouldn't be having this discussion without you The issue that we're talking about here related to access is not an or issue either It's an and in other words everything that's going on with DPLA and the rest has to continue But downstream we have people with needs in our public library community who have the device the broadband and the credit card to buy commercial digital content and We have at-risk neighborhoods that don't have that opportunity and Louise talked about a technology divide or a digital divide This is now a content divide So we've had a digital divide for 20 years. We've been trying to fight or a technology divide now a Content divide is being created by publishers and my point is publishers shouldn't dictate public policy And we haven't defined how Digital materials should be accessed via the copyright laws in this country So one other quick story in Ohio We have talked to former members of Congress about this issue and when we explained it to them Was actually the are congressmen who said well, that's a violation of free trade So I think it's pretty interesting to see where these conversations are going But what librarians have to hang their hat on is the fact that we represent the public's right to access this material Not freely. I'm not saying publishers and authors shouldn't be compensated But we've got to stand up for members of the public who don't have access to these materials And that's one of the strong principles of librarianship. We should all stand for I like that idea of a content divide And it is frustrating to try to buy books now from publishers But there's a lot that's under our control and only under our control and it's the 20th century It's the things that are never going to be sold from book publishers in e-pub form ever And it's really up to us and if we don't get going and do it then what are we complaining about? So it doesn't cost that much to go and digitize these materials. We now have a thousand libraries that have done this It's been going on for two years I don't know what kind of what we're waiting for and it's some some of us aren't waiting Those that are sort of you know still formulating a strategy get going don't just do a strategy is pilot something Start getting going start on digitizing your 20th century materials and start lending it. It's working It's going out to well millions now So at least we can take care of the 20th century as we're still sort of pushing our way into the 21st century For the newest books Okay, yeah I'm all over the place in this issue and as a Urschel or I'm aware maybe I'm a I'm a skunk at the long lawn party But I'm also an author Also work with a non-profit preps University of California Press also work with the San Francisco Public Library Also work with the Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo Library, so I am aware that I am skating out on extremely thin ice by Making any kind of statement at all here, but I think the first page on Brewster's PowerPoint was represent a good presentation of the issues and I think that Coming from a family business. It's been selling books the libraries for about 200 years I'm very confident that through creativity and flexibility and it's the responsibility of publishers to be creative and flexible that will arrive at a solution to the issue of ebook pricing ebook access and that Will do that because we need each other We really can't persist in an environment in which you know We're fighting each other tooth and nail and taking each other to the court and that kind of thing so You know this is a great event and I really appreciate people putting the issue out and I Assure you that I don't know where we are in relation to the big six We might be at like seven point two or something like that, but As those are you who know us and I'm talking about John Wiley and sons Those of you soon who know us know that we we do apply Creativity and flexibility to working with libraries and that's what we didn't we will continue to do in the future and Great great discussion, and I look forward to the solution so we can move on to the next problem I'm a dialectician at the same time, so I know there'll be a resolution. Thank you Feel free to be a model for your publishing world Linda if I can sort of piggyback on what Peter just mentioned when he talks about that conversation between for example the library community And the publishing community He walks to talk because one of the things that is in the horizon for us locally Is to have a conversation about the future of publishing and what it means from the the library side and the publishing side So we're going to bring our management teams together to have a conversation Which I think is one of those next steps if you will in terms of having an open dialogue As I said Peter you'd make a wonderful poster boy for this Anybody else have something that they want to say? I've got a mic I just have a question Have any of you on the panel thought about What does this DP LA movement mean? for The communities that are served by public libraries, what's what's the potential or? The threat if there is one in the DP LA movement for the public's that many public libraries serve So so for me, I think that there's tremendous opportunity Putting aside any you know discussion about access to commercial content or Externally published content. I think that the DP LA movement from what I've been here And since I've been here is this opportunity to really create this Movement around local content. So it isn't just the stagnant piece Digitizing things that already exist yearbooks or old newspapers But it's about things that I heard when I was in Scandinavia Where communities are coming together to create new content and people contribute to that and it's a very active and You know, it's kind of a Self-perpetuating process and I think that's something that is really desired and craved in our communities across America There's a role for public libraries to take leadership We probably need templates and models and leaders in the field and You know somebody is going to need to do that And I'll respond to that to me. It's a couple of concepts one is the scalability of having local materials accessible in a much much broader Arena from local to global as I said earlier this morning the other one is about capacity building I mean there is an opportunity there with some of the Just a diversity of different types of library institutions to be able to Get some support down the road in terms of not only resource sharing, but How to do it how to be able to manage these collections and prioritize collections, but it's about sharing It's not going to fall on the DPL a model, but it's an area where you can point to some capacity building and also it will Have added quality that there will be have some kind of a standard quality so that it will all be regulated To be this to look right to have the right feel for it I'd say a downside on on a DPLA You know sort of how bad could it get would be building centralized points of control and I think on the upside would be a Movement through DPLA and others to make every library in America be a digital library That's I think our goal because also if there isn't kind of a Grassroots movement that helps us to connect I I see that you know It'll be a commercial movement that helps us to connect and again will will be in the bond in the bind where the Platform control is not in the hands of the libraries and the local communities I was just wondering Sari have you spoke I mean random house has implied that they are looking at a more ownership model of Libraries when they buy ebooks Where is that conversation going and our other publishers? following being at least Contemplating this idea The publishers continue to meet with the ALA leadership We actually take that as a very encouraging sign that even though You know they they hear the discontent they know it's out there that they're very open to Establishing an improved relationship, and so they're all exploring the possibility of different models and you know We have to take our lead from the publishers to release any information It's not really for ALA to do and then Brewster. Have you thought about buying random house books? We have tried tried tried tried throwed hundred dollar bills at these guys on Peter Do you want to speak of of your recent discussions with the executives at random? Peter Brantley works for the Internet Archive one of his jobs is to buy ebooks, and How's it going Peter? It's not been a lot of fun Brewster. Thanks for that. Sorry about that I am in conversation with random house, and so we'll see how those conversations go The answer is so far as no, I mean there's this concept of of buying you know If you say oh, we'll sell it to you that means we'll take your money But it doesn't mean that we're buying it in any sense like we used to buy things it's sort of like When everybody's open But you have to be a little work. You have to ask the next question of what does open mean to you? And so we haven't gotten to the point where we're buying And so that we can lend that we can preserve materials. I think this is a very important But if there are other publishers in the world there, there's millions of dollars sitting on this These stools right now looking to spend millions of dollars to buy ebooks. We're having a hard time with it So right now we're doing mostly we're doing scanning think that some of the publishers the big six are inching toward this I We are working on a Adobe content server similar to the Douglas County one Only this will be a statewide for California And we've had a call this week from a one of the big six publishers and so has Douglas County Library So they're at least checking us out. They're feeling us out to see how much it you know can how big is this and what's it? look like So there are some feelers out and I know Brewster has been and Peter has talked to some of them and We're working on it everybody's working on it anybody else So I'm curious with the ebook lending model that that you have going to Internet archive is So if someone checks out HTML5 for designers, it's checked out There's only one copy in circulation at a time That's as many as we've bought and then so Well when we scan we only have one copy. So we're right now. We're doing one copy We'd like to for at least the old stuff Expand it maybe in orphans and things like this, but right now. It's basically one copy one patron And then we're trying to buy as many copies of books as we can as we've said so I guess the following would be as you once it's been scanned once and You could lend it more and more times as you collect physical copies as well right now What we're doing is we have one copy. We're we're scanning it putting it out Just making sure all of that seems to work and Make steps forward. I I think the real goal here is to at least for the things that are commercially viable to put money in the Pockets of publishers and authors. That's our goal And we'll scan what we have to and there's an awful lot of the 20th century to do So it's not like there's there's a shortage of things to do, but we want a complete picture We have a question from the Internet Eleverious asks what will it take for publishers to Nick's DRM? What will it take for publishers to Nick's DRM? Yes Wanting to have a business at the end of the day There's There are different industries that have tried DRM They either don't last long the software in the 1980s started to have DRM And I remember talking to Mitch Cape or who started Lotus and I said, why did you take the DRM off of off of Lotus? The the first spreadsheet and he said because people couldn't figure it out. They didn't want it and we wanted to make money duh The the the music guys also took them quite a while of sort of thinking that Apple was going to be their their savior Before they realized that they really had to get selling things themselves through multiple channels And I think that the I'm hoping that the the book publishers move through this fairly quickly This period fairly quickly and start selling Books in a fairly straightforward way through a bunch of channels so that there are lots of booksellers And there are lots of publishers at the end of the day and there are lots of distributors and no central points of control I think that the the DRM Idea has often been sort of held out and it's caused the business troubles for lots of organizations I'm sorry So the the DRM issue with publishers is actually rapidly evolving We've just exited out of the London Book Fair and there have been discussions there and a lot of discussions before that meeting and certainly ongoing now about some of the big publishers beginning to move toward dropping DRM for Markets that involve EPUB, which is the open standard for books So the first of those that's happened outside of O'Reilly of course and a few other extent examples include bang books and a few others but the the first notable one recently is Publishers called Dowerty with Tor books science fiction imprints Just announced that they were dropping DRM starting in Summer of this year. What's notable about that? What's notable about that is that Tor is an imprint of Macmillan, which is one of the big six publishers So this is widely seen as an interesting experiment Within one of the big six to drop DRM. Now, of course Amazon uses its own proprietary format and And it continues to use content protection measures for that but for other platforms In part as a purpose purposeful content Sorry too late in the afternoon purposeful competitive positioning large publishers are beginning to look at dropping DRM. That doesn't mean that that will happen quickly And it probably will take some time to evolve But this is not something that we shouldn't necessarily assume won't happen There were two really interesting Comments made earlier today one was that a large proportion of the most popular books on Amazon sold in a given day were self published And another was Tim's comment reminding everyone that a lot of the material we should think about Archiving and curating is the ephemeral thing ephemeral material that aren't books But that make up most of what we read and publish and share online What can the DP LA and what can libraries in the room do to help? improve lending and sharing of those materials I'll just say because I don't want to take it away from him But Nate Hill and I were on a panel together Earlier this year and he gave Nate raise your hand so people remember who you are and He gave this great talk about Self-publishing and the way libraries could play a role by creating a space in the catalogue For people who were writing and intending to publish their work to start Being in our library catalogs as a discovery tool and it was extremely provocative to me and So that's somebody who you might want to hear from later on that was just a great idea Nate Would you want to say something about that? I guess the basic idea is that if you were to Come to the San Francisco Public Library and come to a web interface where you were presented with the option of make a Project and that project might be an e-book of some kind or another And you log in and you start to write your book about where the best Mexican food is in San Francisco and As your writing list book about the best Mexican food in San Francisco a Record of a certain item type is automatically generated in the catalog So when somebody's searching for Mexican cooking or something like that Then if they want to filter down and have sort of that local level of content displayed there in the results They can get that as well at the same time that they're looking at all sort of these Localized pieces of content They have the ability to kind of vote them up or down in case Nate Hill doesn't know anything about Mexican food in San Francisco The community can start to say you know, this is sort of a useless project and it's going to go down in the search results it could even go as far as being something where if the library wanted sort of a Print version of this thing people could actually pledge money toward this thing being printed right and everybody could contribute like it's some kind of Kickstarter and This book becomes, you know the ultimate Mexican food guide in San Francisco. I don't know about that, but Yeah Stephen Abram at Cengage Learning. I just want to put some context into the Free books on Amazon some of the analysis has been done of it as most of the growth Was provided by a very small number of companies less than a dozen who were using it as a content spam opportunity to flood ebooks into Amazon and load them with search engine optimization to drive ads and Certain other features so we've got to keep our librarian hats on around the quality of the content That's being loaded up into some of these archives Which are driven by direct media and the large content spam companies Which is a multi multi billion dollar industry right now when you're making when Google makes 30 billion dollars every in profit every three months It's driven by Activities like that so we can't just accept content without keeping our filters on around branding and quality and authorship and authority But if that was true reddit wouldn't work Right, I mean the community can police content and decide that it's relevant To the top, yeah Yeah, I think we're out of time so you guys can settle that offline But you did say what I was trying to say not well that the DPL can provide for local Digitization and so forth a quality That we can all here to win and help you do those kinds of things Anyways, you're out of time if you guys want to discuss this offline feel free